why 2 races?

[truefan72]

Can someone please explain to me the attraction off holding a sprint and longer race

why can't they just have one longer race on Saturday afternoon?

I for one can't stand that format.

Same applies to A1GP series.

[FIA]

Can someone please explain to me the attraction off holding a sprint and longer race

why can't they just have one longer race on Saturday afternoon?



Agree!

[jens]

I don't like the format of the sprint race. Why should 8th position favoured so much? It clearly suits drivers, who are not quick enough for race wins, but somehow manage to drag themselves into the points and the point standings make them to look better than they in reality are if they manage to score some good points on Sundays from their great grid positions.

Look at Javier Villa. How many times did he finish 8th on Saturday? And I think he got about 3 sprint-race wins plus some other good placings. As a result he finished 6th in the points standings. Nothing in his driving suggested that he really was that good.

[truefan72]

I don't like the format of the sprint race. Why should 8th position favoured so much? It clearly suits drivers, who are not quick enough for race wins, but somehow manage to drag themselves into the points and the point standings make them to look better than they in reality are if they manage to score some good points on Sundays from their great grid positions.

Look at Javier Villa. How many times did he finish 8th on Saturday? And I think he got about 3 sprint-race wins plus some other good placings. As a result he finished 6th in the points standings. Nothing in his driving suggested that he really was that good.

my thoughts exactly
if they really want these guys to better prepared for F1 they should really go to a single longer race. If they do it right, the saturday race might even become a huge success and make for a super saturday for the open wheel enthusiast, F1 qulifying and a good GP2 race

[V12]

I agree - GP2 is better than F3000, well post-1996 F3000 anyway, in lots of ways, but the double header format is definitely NOT one of them. Especially that damn reverse grid thing, it has no place at this level of motorsport. I could say the same about Euro F3 actually.

[Commando Cody]

Can someone please explain to me the attraction off holding a sprint and longer race

why can't they just have one longer race on Saturday afternoon?

I for one can't stand that format.

Same applies to A1GP series.
My guess is that it has to do with the financial health of the series.

For starters, teams in Europe's second-tier single-seat “feeder” series need to operate with an annual budget of between $500,000 and $750,000 per car to survive in the current economic climate. GP2 is really pushing the envelope with an estimated budget of $1m to $1.4m per car. Even to stay at that level certain sacrifices must be made. It isn’t just GP2’s “spec” series outline that keeps the expenses down but the way the racecars are used. Genuine pit stops, like one sees in Champ Car or the Indy Racing League, are very expensive. Refueling makes them even more so. They require trained pit crews comprised of several specialized team members with the use of lots of consumables (tires, fuel) and the equipment needed to refuel a racecar – both in the paddock and modifications to the vehicle itself – is very costly. By using a sprint-race format with race distances well within the racecar’s ‘fuel window,’ the GP2 races don’t actually require a pit stop to be made. One is artificially introduced into the main event, as in Formula 1, to increase the spectacle but it isn’t strictly needed. Also, while there is a mandatory tire change – which just serves to highlight the unnecessary nature of the exercise -- I believe refueling is prohibited (as would be expected).

Another aspect of the sprint-race format addresses an issue that helped bring about the demise of FIA Formula 3000, the series that GP2 replaced. When the F3000 calendar was merged with that of Formula 1 in the late 1990s, so that all its races were support races for F1 in Europe (plus an occasional one in Brazil), it was touted to the F3000 team owners as being a tremendous opportunity for them to acquire important television coverage and get “the additional marketing leverage that is associated with F1.” According to the hype, “this integration to the world of F1 offers the opportunity to benefit from the powerful imagery that high class motorsport creates including PR, internal incentive programs, advertising, ‘Formula One Paddock Club Hospitality,’ business to business networking and increased European brand awareness.”

However, a funny thing happened on the way to the bank: the F3000 teams got lost in the glare of F1. Whereas before F3000 had its own schedule of races that included centerpiece events in the Pau and/or Birmingham street races and its own fan following, afterward F3000 played second-fiddle to F1 on Saturdays. F3000 teams were hurried on and off the track and in and out of the paddock as quickly as possible. If the principal of a F3000 team wanted to stay and watch F1 qualifying or the rest of Saturday’s events, he/she had to buy a ticket like everyone else. F3000 fans suddenly discovered that it was very much more expensive to see the series in person because the cost of everything associated with race weekend -- tickets, food and lodging, etc. -- was scaled for a full-fledged Grand Prix weekend. With the cost of attending F3000’s Saturday races almost as much as that for the Grand Prix on Sunday, most visiting fans sensibly decided on attending the F1 Grand Prix. Also, for reasons known only to Bernie Ecclestone, the promised print and electronic media exposure for F3000 never materialized; in fact it got very much scarcer so the F3000 fans suddenly had trouble finding coverage of its races and series happenings.

Almost as damaging to F3000’s survival was the diminution of its function as the official ‘stepping stone to F1.’ F3000 may have been part of the F1 weekend but it increasingly seemed that its team bosses were looking everywhere but the F3000 paddock for their next driver candidates. This put the F3000 team owners at a distinct disadvantage to less-expensive, equivalent single-seat categories like World Series by Nissan, Formula Renault V6 Eurocup, and Euro 3000 in securing sponsored drivers.

As a result of these and other factors, by 2002 FIA Formula 3000 was on the ropes and fading fast. So Bernie Ecclestone and Flavio Briatore decided to create a new stepping stone to F1, GP2, and replace F3000 with it. For the time being the GP2 owners have decided to rectify many of the “mistakes” made with F3000. One of their remedies is to have GP2’s main event on Sunday so that it benefits from the exposure given to the premier series and its audience. Hence, another reason for the two sprint races; one on Saturday and one on Sunday.

IMO.

[patnicholls]

Some good and interesting points there Cody, and welcome to the forum :)

To be fair, the main GP2 race is the one on the Saturday afternoon, the sprint one on Sunday is awarded less points so is definitely second in the billing. And at (9am in Britain/)10am in Europe when the F1 race starts at 2pm (Europe), it's not really close enough to get much of the F1 crowd probably, which is a shame as GP2 is putting F1 firmly in the shade racing-wise since it came in.

As for why we have two races, well I agree that on the face of it the reversed grid thing seems kind of silly. But conversely the sprint race is awarded less points, and we've still seen a couple of races won by someone coming through on a Sunday morning. The quickest guys still win the championship (the F1 standings - not just Lewis but Nico and Heikki - show that the right guys have come through so far).

It's good to see the quickest guys having to come through the field too and pass some people - an overtaking move is entertaining when all's said and done. Some F1-only fans have never even seen an overtake :p

I agree that the pitstops are pointless, and only serve to throw in F1-style 'out-lap overtaking' (uuurgh!), but actually quite like the two-race format compared with F3000 (which I've watched since 1997 and nowadays GP2). Throws an interesting spanner in the works for me.

[Commando Cody]

Some good and interesting points there Cody, and welcome to the forum :)

To be fair, the main GP2 race is the one on the Saturday afternoon, the sprint one on Sunday is awarded less points so is definitely second in the billing. And at (9am in Britain/)10am in Europe when the F1 race starts at 2pm (Europe), it's not really close enough to get much of the F1 crowd probably, which is a shame as GP2 is putting F1 firmly in the shade racing-wise since it came in.

As for why we have two races, well I agree that on the face of it the reversed grid thing seems kind of silly. But conversely the sprint race is awarded less points, and we've still seen a couple of races won by someone coming through on a Sunday morning. The quickest guys still win the championship (the F1 standings - not just Lewis but Nico and Heikki - show that the right guys have come through so far).

It's good to see the quickest guys having to come through the field too and pass some people - an overtaking move is entertaining when all's said and done. Some F1-only fans have never even seen an overtake :p

I agree that the pitstops are pointless, and only serve to throw in F1-style 'out-lap overtaking' (uuurgh!), but actually quite like the two-race format compared with F3000 (which I've watched since 1997 and nowadays GP2). Throws an interesting spanner in the works for me.
Thanks for the welcome. :)

While technically Sunday's race may get second billing I still think it serves several vital functions for the series.

First, I believe its American sprint-car style reversed grid (for only 8 positions) is designed to provide maximum entertainment value in front of a Formula 1 audience (fans and team bosses) while simultaneously being awarded less points to ensure that the "gimmick" doesn’t skew the final standings too much. There have inevitably been complaints about the artificial nature of the arrangement and the point structure goes to answer these IMO. Note also that in American sprint car racing the entire grid is reversed whereas GP2 does so only for the first 8 positions. Which means that the only drivers greatly effected are those at opposite ends of its localized poles; mostly the drivers in first and eighth, less so for drivers in second and seventh and so on until the driver in fourth is completely unaffected (if I understand the procedure correctly).

Second, the hardcore enthusiast’s head may say that Saturday’s race is the top bill but the ‘casual’ fan’s heart is likely to give precedence to Sunday’s ‘lesser’ race as the game ain’t over till the fat lady sings, and she stops singing on Sundays in GP2. If one thinks about this it is the best of both worlds for the GP2 organizers: the hardcore GP2 fans get their ‘main’ event on Saturday with few distractions and the casual or potential fans get their carnival act on Sunday, which just might encourage them to explore GP2 further.

No one will ever know for sure but one of the primary reasons for the demise of FIA Formula 3000 was likely Bernie Ecclestone’s desire to protect the premier series, Formula 1. Then as now with GP2, the ‘junior’ series would often as you say put “F1 firmly in the shade racing-wise since it came in.” Bernie had no desire to have the inevitable comparisons drawn, so he quite literally put F3000 in the dark to avoid that possibility, IMO.

Today, though, Ecclestone has cashed out the majority of his F1 holdings and he and Flavio have plenty of euros to be made off the new junior series. Therefore, they are promoting GP2 in a way not seen since the first year of FIA Formula 3000 when Bernie was its promoter and had a warehouse full of Cosworth DFV’s to sell the new team owners and tuners. The rapid promotions of Nico Rosberg, Heikki Kovalainen, and Lewis Hamilton – with spectacular results – has enabled GP2 to live up to its billing as “the stepping stone to Formula 1.” This should have a dramatically negative impact on rival series (e.g. A1GP and the CCWS) by siphoning off sponsored drivers with an eye on the top category.

The beauty of the heat race structure of GP2, IMO, is that Sunday’s race accomplishes all its presumed goals while staying pretty much out of the way of the premier series and giving BE “plausible deniability.” Meaning if critics comment favorably on Sunday’s junior series race at the expense of the senior, Bernie has only to refer them to its contrived theatrics and second-class point status to counter them. Also, who knows but that the bite-sized Sunday GP2 sprint race might make for a more delectable TV show and one that is easier to secure limited air time for? Additionally, the on-track fireworks in Sunday’s GP2 race might be used to put the sound bite and photo op support into its role as F1's support series.

IMO

[truefan72]

good points, but I think that a single race format will do much more to support the series as well as bbenefit the drivers

1. They could hold it on the same weekend but at a different venue
that would ensure a solid crowd at that venue with an entire weekend of fun activites and revenue gereating opportunites,

2. They could hold it on alternative weekend to the F1 calender and secure the entire weekend and captive racing audience for themselves

both options would offer GP2 an opportunity to secure their own lucrative TV rights with ashow that would last longer and be more meanigful than a comical 1/2 race and then a mini sprint race.

i think most fans, and probably the drivers themselves are not tooo enamored with the whole idea.

[jens]

I'm not against two races, but starting grids should in both occasions be based on Friday's qualifying. I don't want to see that unfair reverse grid stuff any more.

[Bleu]

I think the lesser points for reversed grid race compromises the advantage.

IF (very big IF) there would not be any overtakings in the sprint race, the Saturday's winner would get 10 points, Saturday's second 8 and six others 7 points. Of course discounting the bonus points.

Only four drivers have actually won sprint race from pole: Pla and Villa twice, Viso and Carroll once.

[patnicholls]

Some more good points posted since I last looked at this one.

But...well, I'm not one for the conspiracy theories. When I say that GP2 upstages Formula 1 racing-wise, in the literal sense it is true. But as far as competing in the mainstream alongside it, well it will never be anywhere near in the popularity stakes. I would be stunned if Bernie felt it necessary to do any kind of 'protection' against any other racing series, particularly F1's designated support series - the level of media around F1 compared to all the others means that even the specialist motor racing press are marginalised in terms of impact. Most people I meet are aware of Formula 1 and many watch it; barely a couple have ever seen a GP2 or F3000 race outside of the world of this forum and indeed don't know what it is.

In my main area - bike racing -, the MotoGP organisers don't need to 'protect' against the support classes (125cc and 250cc), even though the 125cc race is always the best - they're just enjoyed together. I ran a thread a few weeks ago (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121951) comparing the relative popularity of the biggest motor racing series websites in the world - as you can see, F1, NASCAR and MotoGP are way ahead of everything else.

I'm not sure I buy the 'plausible deniability' thing either - plenty of top racing series run reversed grids (World and British Touring Cars spring to mind) and it continues down through the ranks to karting.

It is a good point about lesser series having a better chance of TV with a shorter race - especially with the schedules being more crowded than ever nowadays. For casual fans just tuning in, a shorter programme is easier to digest in amongst whatever else they're doing (plenty of my friends say stuff like "I watched the start of the F1 race, then went away but switched on for the end to see how ___________ did").

Wasn't part of the reason because F1 races have so few support races and the easiest way of adding to the number of races at a GP is to get GP2 to do two?

There's no need for additional paddock space to be given up to an extra series....and we all know how much the F1 teams love their gargantuan paddock behemoths, so asking them for a bit more room for a FFord series wasn't going to be a good idea.

There's also the cost issues in terms of exposure for the sponsors. Two TV slots and a double crowd is better than one TV slot and just the one days crowd.

The reversing of the grid....although I agree in terms of a purist it doesn't seem right, the counter-argument is that it allows for more exposure TV wise.

[truefan72]

Yes good comments,
but I am not saying that GP2 has to follow F1's calender and feed in their PR trough.

As I said, place the races in opposing weekends and at a different venue from the F1 calender. I would get up at 7am to wathc a gp2 race if it was the only meaningful race of F1 caliber that weekend.
If I got to see 50+ laps of racing
If I got to see a proper racing without manufactured rules

I remember the old F3 days and thought that they did it right.
The cars were not so gimmecky and formulaic and the racing was not so processional.

[patnicholls]

Yes good comments,
but I am not saying that GP2 has to follow F1's calender and feed in their PR trough.

As I said, place the races in opposing weekends and at a different venue from the F1 calender. I would get up at 7am to wathc a gp2 race if it was the only meaningful race of F1 caliber that weekend.
If I got to see 50+ laps of racing
If I got to see a proper racing without manufactured rules

I remember the old F3 days and thought that they did it right.
The cars were not so gimmecky and formulaic and the racing was not so processional.

GP2 does a weekend at Valencia where it's standalone, and did an event at Bahrain in 2005 as the season finale which wasn't paired with F1. I think both events were pretty sparse crowd-wise unfortunately - running with F1 does provide the series with much-needed exposure and is a benefit imho. Let's not forget, many of the guys in GP2 will only spend a year or two in there before moving up or on elsewhere, so there's not much by way of established names for the general public [as opposed to knowledgable motorsport fans] to recognise. In 2006, Lewis Hamilton was a GP2 rookie, of course! Some similar level series (Italian/Euro F3000) have run on their own with small crowds - without being able to piggyback F1 the public simply has no idea who the drivers are. [World Series by Renault has got massive crowds the past two years, though Renault give away the tickets to that for free]

Running on opposite weekends to F1 doesn't mean it would be the only meaningful racing that weekend - most MotoGP events are on the alternate weekends to F1.