Forum Standards and ethics

[truefan72]

Over the course of the past two years, I've seen this forum, which was/is by far my favorite place to interact all things F1 degenerate into a level of hatred, vitriol, and disdain that is tarnishing its good reputation.

I find a good number of people in this forum to be extremely knowledgable in F1. from technical aspects to history, to a keen interest in the minutia unparralled to non other. People from every continent, every background and varying perspectives come together to provide fantastic and informative threads on all things F1.

But all too often of late, it has fallen prey to viscious and completely biased comments towards drivers that some posters don't like. I've particularly seen the rise of unreasonable and irrationale criticism and disdain towards the direction of LH in particular which me to question why this particular F1 driver is the lightning rod for such animosity. and it saddends me to say that the theory of Occam's razor (for those of you that don't know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor) comes to mind.

Yes, I clearly like LH, but I'm also an F1 fan and give credit where it is due. Despite Alonso's antics and poor judgement, he is an extremely good driver and garnered his 2 WDC titles by performing on the road. I may have grown not to like him personally, but I don't deny his talent and superior cratsmanship behind the wheel. Apart from his move in Spa, I have no qualms with his driving, just the other stuff. I'm no Ferrari fan, but have alot of respect for Kimi and Felipe. I give credit where it is due and asign blame where it is warranted.

Even with MS who I though more than often displayed an attitude that I didn't like, is IMO the greatest F1 driver, whether I like him or not. The records and accomplishments speak for themselves.

BUT all to often as of late, this forum as gone beyond the rational back and forth banter and entered into a completely uncomprehensible sense of disdain towards drivers that others don't like. The allegiances that seemed to have been revered as loyalty and team suppport have been replace by pure bias and other team hatred no matter the situation.

BUT Lewis Hamilton IMO seems to be the focus of many of you in here and I dare say for all sorts of reasons, the least having to do with his actual drving ability and performance as a rookine in 2007.
You don't like him, that's fair
you don't like McClaren, I can understand

but if you are going to make an arguement for a particular situation, race or incident. I emplore you to back it up with some sound reasoning as to your opinions. Unless you actually have some basis for comments, then I'll assume you are just posting those remarks to flame the driver or work off your own pent up issues. I also see the same people making the same tired argument in every thread no matter the subject as if they have figure out how to spam the threads with anti-hamilton comment. Then there are others who don't post anywhere except for LH threads and usually see fit to unleash all sorts of unseamly posts.

Even though MS had his detractors ( many of them, some might say) I don't remember this kind of nastiness.

So let's get back to talking F1 in a more reasonable way. Negative posts are always going to happen but should have some basis in fact for their existense.

I for one am tired of continuing to go back and forth with sensless comments. I emplore other to simply ignore remarks that you feel are simply there to cause conflict.

I would love to know if others feel the same way or I'f I'm alone in my observations.

[Crypt]

I'm relativley new to this forum, not the site, so I will chime in with my observations on the subject of Lewis.

I have abused a thread or two venting my "frustrations" with Lewis. I quickly realized that it was rather pointless to keep ranting about him and just enjoy when my favorite drivers beat him on the track. He's certainly turned the F1 world upside down and I think Bernie is laughing all the way to the bank.

On the whole, this title fight and Lewis is good for the sport. It turned out to be alot crazier than everyone suspected since the departure of Schumi. Let's hope these teams can keep their fingers out of each other's cookie jars next year and have a clean season and another close battle for the title.

[truefan72]

I'm relativley new to this forum, not the site, so I will chime in with my observations on the subject of Lewis.

I have abused a thread or two venting my "frustrations" with Lewis. I quickly realized that it was rather pointless to keep ranting about him and just enjoy when my favorite drivers beat him on the track. He's certainly turned the F1 world upside down and I think Bernie is laughing all the way to the bank.

On the whole, this title fight and Lewis is good for the sport. It turned out to be alot crazier than everyone suspected since the departure of Schumi. Let's hope these teams can keep their fingers out of each other's cookie jars next year and have a clean season and another close battle for the title.

I will agree to that. Well said

[markabilly]

Over the course of the past two years, I've seen this forum, which was/is by far my favorite place to interact all things F1 degenerate into a level of hatred, vitriol, and disdain that is tarnishing its good reputation.

I find a good number of people in this forum to be extremely knowledgable in F1. from technical aspects to history, to a keen interest in the minutia unparralled to non other. People from every continent, every background and varying perspectives come together to provide fantastic and informative threads on all things F1.

But all too often of late, it has fallen prey to viscious and completely biased comments towards drivers that some posters don't like. I've particularly seen the rise of unreasonable and irrationale criticism and disdain towards the direction of LH in particular which me to question why this particular F1 driver is the lightning rod for such animosity. and it saddends me to say that the theory of Occam's razor (for those of you that don't know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor) comes to mind.

Yes, I clearly like LH, but I'm also an F1 fan and give credit where it is due. Despite Alonso's antics and poor judgement, he is an extremely good driver and garnered his 2 WDC titles by performing on the road. I may have grown not to like him personally, but I don't deny his talent and superior cratsmanship behind the wheel. Apart from his move in Spa, I have no qualms with his driving, just the other stuff. I'm no Ferrari fan, but have alot of respect for Kimi and Felipe. I give credit where it is due and asign blame where it is warranted.

Even with MS who I though more than often displayed an attitude that I didn't like, is IMO the greatest F1 driver, whether I like him or not. The records and accomplishments speak for themselves.

BUT all to often as of late, this forum as gone beyond the rational back and forth banter and entered into a completely uncomprehensible sense of disdain towards drivers that others don't like. The allegiances that seemed to have been revered as loyalty and team suppport have been replace by pure bias and other team hatred no matter the situation.

BUT Lewis Hamilton IMO seems to be the focus of many of you in here and I dare say for all sorts of reasons, the least having to do with his actual drving ability and performance as a rookine in 2007.
You don't like him, that's fair
you don't like McClaren, I can understand

but if you are going to make an arguement for a particular situation, race or incident. I emplore you to back it up with some sound reasoning as to your opinions. Unless you actually have some basis for comments, then I'll assume you are just posting those remarks to flame the driver or work off your own pent up issues. I also see the same people making the same tired argument in every thread no matter the subject as if they have figure out how to spam the threads with anti-hamilton comment. Then there are others who don't post anywhere except for LH threads and usually see fit to unleash all sorts of unseamly posts.

Even though MS had his detractors ( many of them, some might say) I don't remember this kind of nastiness.

So let's get back to talking F1 in a more reasonable way. Negative posts are always going to happen but should have some basis in fact for their existense.

I for one am tired of continuing to go back and forth with sensless comments. I emplore other to simply ignore remarks that you feel are simply there to cause conflict.

I would love to know if others feel the same way or I'f I'm alone in my observations.


For the record there is only one driver I have truly supported and that was scott speed, in a vain and foolish hope that he would help bring more of america into F1

And I do admire MS but not so much for his driving (and certainly not his sportsmanship) but because he acted more as team principal and leader than most will ever realize---and when folks say he had the best car, well maybe so, but he was a biggest key to the whole package and not a mere driver like FA, LH, Kimi or anyone else on the grid.

Beyond that I am rooting for no one.

So I could really care less about the fact of who wins or not beyond this, but what I do not like is the hypocrisy of this year in its extreme behavior and lack of fundamental fairness to the rules and fawning over a rookie who has been given what he has with the help of all concerned in the name of increasing revenue. And I think what happenned with FA's behavior is no doubt due to this factor, esp within his own team. Nothing else explains the behavior.


And I speak as one who has not only known the thrill of victory and agony of defeat, but the agony of crashes.

Nevertheless as Bernie and others realized, it is all entertainment pure and simple, that has approached the level of "pro werstling" in terms of what is really going on, and so deserves the same treatment. It is a joke and if anyone can not see that, its a pity, because the failure to see it, is what makes it possible for this circus to continue it.

So those who wish to live illusions and pretend this is all some technical race stuff, with some science involved for all of this, where this kind of trash does not occur, is to ignore the hidden reality...as hemingway once said, ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee



I could respond further to your "dare i say it" type comments that to me seem to imply perhaps there is some racism on the part of those who do not like LH...and so perhaps there are those...but I do not know of who those might be, and will not comment on that further

[markabilly]

And I am assuming you are describing this type of rant, without anything to back it up, where someone just pops off big time:

this whole conversation and FIA inquiry is utterly riodiculous.

LH is blamed for an incident between Webber and vettel ,where he is miles away from the actual incident and leading the race under caution.

In that race alone, which I recorded, I can see at least 20 different incidents of drivers accellarating and braking and even some slightly surging ahead of other cars and backing off

In fact both Raikkonen and Massa spun early in the race, if other cars collided behind them, would they blame those guys.

Did Wurz get a penalty for causing the Massa contact

Let's go back to Germany and watch the race again.

I can go back to a bunch of races this year and last year where similar driving has occured. ( I didn't see Trulli getting any penalty for break checking that caused Kubica to crash in Canada, etc...)

You would then have to go back and retroactvely penalise every driver for first corner incidents that resluted in crashes behidn them or around them.

This would be the first time in the HISTORY of driving that a driver would be penalised for an accident occuring behind him. LET ALONE leading the race, LET ALONE under SC conditions, LET ALONE when Vettel admitted his bonehead driving mistake ( under SC conditions)
This whole affair is beyond absurd and continues to put F1 in disrepute with their braind dead actions.

I'm ashamed and saddened to see what F1 has come to in 2007,
I have very little confidence in competitive driving until Max Mosley ( who Im sure insitigated the investigation) dissapears, and most of the FIA principles in power today leave.


This whole thing is just absurd. And should quickly go away before it completely gets out of hand.

then again it already has

I beleive this was your very recent post over in the hamilton /vettel crash thread; http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=360324#post360324

on 4th Oct 07, 18:22

And I do apologize if you feel this is a personal attack as it was and is not intened as same, but only a response to your comments

For me this is all in fun, and everytime i have been attacked personally i always laugh and try to give back as good as got--some fail to see that but that is their issue, not mine :D

[Hawkmoon]

I don't think all that much has changed since I first joined in 2003. Only difference then was that Schumi was the centre of most of the debate/argument.

People didn't like him, for whatever reason, and said so. Some could never bring themselves to praise him no matter what he did. The flip side was also true. Some would never criticise him. Ever. Period.

I thought Alonso would take up that mantle but it looks like Hamilton may have usurped him in that area as well. Does it matter? All it means is that the boy is bloody good. If he wasn't, nobody would waste the effort of getting passionate about him either way.

Hamilton will go one of two ways. He'll either go down the path of Schumacher and become a multiple champion or he'll go down the path of Villenueve and never win again.

But hey, don't let the debate get so serious that it upsets you. Ignore the bad posts, enjoy the good ones and argue the debatable ones.

Cheers! :)

[Kevincal]

truefan, it appears you've spent a lot of time on creating this topic. It's funny to me, that you can't see that you are just another person adding to the fire. Your bias for LH and bias against FA is blatantly obvious... And for us Alonso fans, your first post seems to be a bit of an attack against Alonso. Time to get off your high horse...You're just like the rest of us. ;)

[Roamy]

Jesus Christ truefan72 did your dog die????

Its 5 car lengths BEHIND the pace car not 5 car lengths to the right!!

Is that soap box from Tide - ok ok I will watch Gordon!!

[tinchote]

Even though MS had his detractors ( many of them, some might say) I don't remember this kind of nastiness.


Then either you have bad memory or you are too new. The anti-MS thing has been at levels that are not near anything we have now at the forum.

Anyway, it's also true that there have been better times. Times where we would discuss a lot about technical issues, and not just bash the driver we don't like. These days the forums are not particularly nice, but times change and in a months we'll all be bothered and almost nothing will be happening here until we start the annual "test-guessing".

[wmcot]

Even though MS had his detractors ( many of them, some might say) I don't remember this kind of nastiness.


I would say that Lewis Hamilton has only received about 1% of the criticism that Michael Schumacher had. Those of us who supported MS (most of the time) would say to LH, "You ain't seen nothin' yet!"

For years, MH was Satan and Ferrari were his legions of evil spirits to a majority of the posters.

Personally, I saw MS as a great champion with his share of faults. In the same way, LH has his faults along with a great talent. Since this is his first year in F1, many of us will criticize him when he does something questionable. Hopefully, we will praise him when he does something well.

There are many on this forum (as every F1 forum) who continue to wear blinders that are anti-MS/LH/FA/Ferrari/McLaren/Briatore/Dennis/Todt/Mosley/Ecclestone/FIA...ad infinitum. Those are the ones who will never give credit when it is due. To them, all they see done by their hated nemesis is evil.

There are many on the forum who are open minded and willing to reserve judgment until the evidence is in. Those are the ones who will post intelligently. Ignore those who make personal attacks and continually deride one driver, team, or other figure.

I personally am not a fan of Ron Dennis, yet I have found myself agreeing with him on several occasions. The same is true for Max Mosley and Bernie Ecclestone. I do support Ferrari as my team of choice, but I realize that there are many ultra-talented drivers and team personnel on all teams. They each have a job to do and do them very well for the most part.

There are those who criticize the politics within the sport, but I find that it is the politics that sets F1 apart from most other forms of motorsport. It is the reason that we have these forums with so many members.

Yes, there is a lot of nonsensical gibberish posted, but every once in awhile an intelligent poster will point out a bit of truth that makes it all worthwhile. Despite all the infighting among posters, I have learned more about F1 from this forum and ones like it than from all the watching or reading I have done.

For that, I thank all those who post well thought out points.

[trumperZ06]

;) Hi Tin,

Formula One is going through another one of their low points once again this year with the Stepneygate FIAsco.

Up until the second courtroom drama... we were having one of the best contests between two teams and four drivers... that we have had in a long long time. Add in a rookie driver giving us quite a SHOW and BMW rapidly moving up the grid... and it was looking good for F-1.

Then, it all falls apart. First we had McLaren receiving Ferrari documents... then Alsonso trying to Blackmail the principal of his team. Next, F-1 hands down a penalty including a 100 million dollar fine... all based on finding the accused party guilty of... "Bringing the Sport into Disrepute" !!!

Some were gleefully crowing about McLaren's downfall... others were woefully complaining about a possible... "Personal Vendetta"... orchastrated by Max against Ron Dennis.

People see Conspiricies on all sides, and are Suspicious of any and all press reports that don't favor their personal viewpoint !!!

IMO... The Mods have done an outstanding job... allowing an ebb & flow in these discussions, only stepping in when necessary.

Now I don't think the current mood is any better nor any worse than what we have seen in past years. There are some new members along with us old hands that can get quite Vocal from time to time... but I haven't seen a lot of personal attacks... and the few times it's happened recently, the Mods have allowed the dust to settle... unless it's gotten completely... "out of Control" !

I much prefer intelligent discussions and debates... but... not everyone is knowledgable with ALL the various aspects of Formula One. Some focus on mechnical issues, others on driver or team errors, still others along national lines, then there's the political issues.

Given the complexity of F-1, the mods are doing an excellent job in keeping this forum civil !!!

It may be time for ALL of us to take a deep breath and remember, we are here to enjoy talking about Formula One. None of us are likely to cause it to change, so relax and lets try & get along with one another.

Thanks guys for listening.

Cya @ the track,

Trumper

[wmcot]

;) Hi Tin,

Formula One is going through another one of their low points once again this year with the Stepneygate FIAsco.

Up until the second courtroom drama... we were having one of the best contests between two teams and four drivers... that we have had in a long long time. Add in a rookie driver giving us quite a SHOW and BMW rapidly moving up the grid... and it was looking good for F-1.



On the track, it has been a GREAT year! Close racing, several multiple-race winners. Surprises from teams and drivers!

It's almost like F1 is 2 separate entities - the on track racing and the off-track politics. Maybe we could divide the forum along those lines - but unfortunately the two are intertwined.

[pino]

It may be time for ALL of us to take a deep breath and remember, we are here to enjoy talking about Formula One. None of us are likely to cause it to change, so relax and lets try & get along with one another.



Now that's a great advice to all of you, if you care about this place. We Mods are here only to keep this place clear and confortable and at the end of the day, only your posts and comments gives quality to this forum ;)

[ioan]

Even though MS had his detractors ( many of them, some might say) I don't remember this kind of nastiness.

I wouldn't say that! ;)

I do however agree that the forum standard is at pretty low point at this moment. To many insults flying around for nothing.

[leopard]

Thanks guys for listening.



I am reading, not listening ;)

Everyone have their own reason for loving a driver or team, at any rate they talk for the benefit of the said driver and or team, because realize it or not it will give benefit or satisfaction from supporting the said driver/team.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem possible to support another driver that regularly gives our favorite driver troublesome. Consequently, there is tendency to put criticism or anything to make a piece of hope of possibility that our favorite driver's possibility on wining stays open.
Although it is quite often that support is not equipped with proper source nor back up, but more as a loophole of the expectation for their own benefit.

[BDunnell]

truefan72, I agree 100 per cent with your views. As I have said many times on many threads recently, it is extremely frustrating that blatantly biased opinions get in the way of sensible discussion. This is not directed at anyone in particular, but I have been forced to vent my anger at this on the forum and I genuinely don't like doing so. Those of us who like F1 as a whole and not a particular driver or team can be forgiven, I feel, for the way in which discussion of the sport is spoilt by blatant partisanship on the part of others.

[Dave B]

I've come very close to leaving the forum recently, as every time I log on I'm met by a load of arguements along the lines of "your team cheats" / "yeah well your team cheats more" / "yeah well your team cheated first" / "yeah but your team got away with it" / "yeah well your team smells".

It is of course a wonderful thing that the Championship can arouse such passionate opinions, and in many cases there are no right or wrong answers. I've got the utmost respect for those who bother to explain the rationale behind their opinions, even if I disagree with them.

But in too many cases I'm reading childish, ill-educated and downright insulting posts.

There's two races to go, and one way or another this could be the most exciting climax to an F1 season for many years.

Let's enjoy the racing :D

[jens]

Oh fanboys, fanboys... They are everywhere.
Maybe we should take a closer look in the mirror... and what can we see? A fanboy! :p :




I can go back to a bunch of races this year and last year where similar driving has occured. ( I didn't see Trulli getting any penalty for break checking that caused Kubica to crash in Canada, etc...)


Kubica accepted later that he was at fault.

[CarlMetro]

I've come very close to leaving the forum recently, as every time I log on I'm met by a load of arguements along the lines of "your team cheats" / "yeah well your team cheats more" / "yeah well your team cheated first" / "yeah but your team got away with it" / "yeah well your team smells".

You're not alone in that Dave although I don't think it has gotten that much worse over recent times, we just seem to have a different target or two.

Personally I post far less than I used to in the F1 forum. I tend to scan through the threads and make an evaluation of them with regards to how stupid they will turn out and then make a decision about posting on them or not. Unfortunately the results have been simply to not bother posting because I know the direction the thread will take, and I have had to unsubscribe to several threads where they've started out ok but then quickly gone downhill.

It's sad to say, and I never ever thought I'd say it either, but I feel that the moderator standards have dropped significantly in recent times too, with too many threads being allowed to carry on with out being locked.

[janneppi]

It's sad to say, and I never ever thought I'd say it either, but I feel that the moderator standards have dropped significantly in recent times too, with too many threads being allowed to carry on with out being locked.
Personally, I would close 2/3 of the threads being pointless or dicussing the exact same issue.
And if I do merge threads I course then get a trashing for not allowing discussion.

[Garry Walker]

Over the course of the past two years, I've seen this forum, which was/is by far my favorite place to interact all things F1 degenerate into a level of hatred, vitriol, and disdain that is tarnishing its good reputation.

I find a good number of people in this forum to be extremely knowledgable in F1. from technical aspects to history, to a keen interest in the minutia unparralled to non other. People from every continent, every background and varying perspectives come together to provide fantastic and informative threads on all things F1.

But all too often of late, it has fallen prey to viscious and completely biased comments towards drivers that some posters don't like. I've particularly seen the rise of unreasonable and irrationale criticism and disdain towards the direction of LH in particular which me to question why this particular F1 driver is the lightning rod for such animosity. and it saddends me to say that the theory of Occam's razor (for those of you that don't know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor) comes to mind.

Yes, I clearly like LH, but I'm also an F1 fan and give credit where it is due. Despite Alonso's antics and poor judgement, he is an extremely good driver and garnered his 2 WDC titles by performing on the road. I may have grown not to like him personally, but I don't deny his talent and superior cratsmanship behind the wheel. Apart from his move in Spa, I have no qualms with his driving, just the other stuff. I'm no Ferrari fan, but have alot of respect for Kimi and Felipe. I give credit where it is due and asign blame where it is warranted.

Even with MS who I though more than often displayed an attitude that I didn't like, is IMO the greatest F1 driver, whether I like him or not. The records and accomplishments speak for themselves.

BUT all to often as of late, this forum as gone beyond the rational back and forth banter and entered into a completely uncomprehensible sense of disdain towards drivers that others don't like. The allegiances that seemed to have been revered as loyalty and team suppport have been replace by pure bias and other team hatred no matter the situation.

BUT Lewis Hamilton IMO seems to be the focus of many of you in here and I dare say for all sorts of reasons, the least having to do with his actual drving ability and performance as a rookine in 2007.
You don't like him, that's fair
you don't like McClaren, I can understand

but if you are going to make an arguement for a particular situation, race or incident. I emplore you to back it up with some sound reasoning as to your opinions. Unless you actually have some basis for comments, then I'll assume you are just posting those remarks to flame the driver or work off your own pent up issues. I also see the same people making the same tired argument in every thread no matter the subject as if they have figure out how to spam the threads with anti-hamilton comment. Then there are others who don't post anywhere except for LH threads and usually see fit to unleash all sorts of unseamly posts.

Even though MS had his detractors ( many of them, some might say) I don't remember this kind of nastiness.

So let's get back to talking F1 in a more reasonable way. Negative posts are always going to happen but should have some basis in fact for their existense.

I for one am tired of continuing to go back and forth with sensless comments. I emplore other to simply ignore remarks that you feel are simply there to cause conflict.

I would love to know if others feel the same way or I'f I'm alone in my observations.

You are a hypocrite. You have thrown an extraordinary amount of filth on the way of Ferrari and Schumacher in past, yet now when some people dare to attack "The Golden Boy", even very slightly, you throw a hissy and start crying like a little kid. Amusing.
If you were someone of great quality and not someone with more than a few black spots in your posting history, I would take your post seriously, but now I consider it fanboy filth. Fanboy Crying Filth.

Oh and the funniest part of what you said was you claiming MS never got such nastyness. That is so funny that it is great comedy material. MS got much worse treatment than The Golden Boy is getting on this forum, with you being one of the main attackers, so you have been exposed as an hypocrite again. AGAIN.

[Dave B]

@Carl: I reckon the mods have a tough choice. They are here to enforce forum rules, not to stifle debate.

No matter how idiotic somebody's opinion may seem, and how porly they make their arguement, so long as they don't breach the rules I can't see why the posts should be moderated.

:)

[BDunnell]

Out of interest, post 21 above is a perfect example of the sort of thing a lot of us are becoming increasingly infuriated by.

[pino]

And if I do merge threads I course then get a trashing for not allowing discussion.

Exactly, no matter how we act, we never take the right decision, my inbox is full of PM's from people complaining for closing or merging their threads...

[CarlMetro]

Personally, I would close 2/3 of the threads being pointless or dicussing the exact same issue.

My point exactly. So why are those threads still open? Standards have dropped below what they were.

[Garry Walker]

Exactly, no matter how we act, we never take the right decision, my inbox is full of PM's from people complaining for closing or merging their threads...

It is impossible to satisfy all the people, all the time.

[BDunnell]

I, for one, don't have a problem with the moderation here at all. It is a very difficult situation. The trouble is that it's impossible to siphon off the sensible, properly reasoned discussions, because those who come at things from a standpoint of partisanship and nothing else are freely able to join in with those discussions, which can't ever be changed.

[janneppi]

BDunnell: As you know, you can always choose the people you talk to, not every stupid comment need s a return in favour, infact it only encourages the original poster.

The age old internet advise is, Don't feed the trolls. :D

[Hondo]

I don't think we have changed too much. I do think we are responding to a bizzare situation in F1 that has not occurred before in this magnitude.

Many of us that post here also post over in Chit Chat and it doesn't appear to be going down hill.

I've seen some other F1 forums lately and they seem to have the same level of bickering going on right now that we do, for the same reasons.

I'd put it down as something similar to Global Warming, as far as the passion, arguments, and logic goes, but for F1 instead.

[pino]

My point exactly. So why are those threads still open? Standards have dropped below what they were.

Sorry Carl but I honestly don't see any threads that needs to be closed right now :)

[janneppi]

My point exactly. So why are those threads still open? Standards have dropped below what they were.
Actually, the standard of the average poster has gone down what it was. ;)

[CarlMetro]

Sorry Carl but I honestly don't see any threads that needs to be closed right now :)

Then perhaps you should ask your fellow mod which ones he means? ;)

Janneppi, I completely agree with you on the poster standard :up:

[BDunnell]

BDunnell: As you know, you can always choose the people you talk to, not every stupid comment need s a return in favour, infact it only encourages the original poster.

The age old internet advise is, Don't feed the trolls. :D

Fair enough, but when you see what you consider to be blatant rubbish being posted, no matter who it's about, it can be hard to leave it hanging in the air. I have found the nature of some of the comments made by people who profess to like F1 really depressing.

[pino]

Then perhaps you should ask your fellow mod which ones he means? ;)



No need for that, my english isn't that bad...is it ? :s :p :

[BDunnell]

I don't think we have changed too much. I do think we are responding to a bizzare situation in F1 that has not occurred before in this magnitude.

Many of us that post here also post over in Chit Chat and it doesn't appear to be going down hill.

I've seen some other F1 forums lately and they seem to have the same level of bickering going on right now that we do, for the same reasons.

I'd put it down as something similar to Global Warming, as far as the passion, arguments, and logic goes, but for F1 instead.

Very good points.

One problem is that, from my point of view, it was possible to ignore all the 'MS is the anti-Christ'/'MS is God'/'the FIA hates Ferrari'/'the FIA favours Ferrari' stuff that used to go on, because I for one had no interest in discussing it. However, I do have an interest in discussing the espionage scandal, because it's a very serious topic and worth talking about with other F1 enthusiasts, of whom there are many very knowledgeable ones on here.

Early on, there was a really good discussion on one of the threads, involving lots of different opinions, yet without bickering and with loads of good points made by either side. Sadly, since then, all of the old themes have been played out again, just with different names and roles. To some, everything is black and white, and/or a conspiracy.

[trumperZ06]

Exactly, no matter how we act, we never take the right decision, my inbox is full of PM's from people complaining for closing or merging their threads...

;) Damn Pino... sounds like Y'all are in a...

" NO WIN SITUATION " !!!

:beer: ;)

[truefan72]

Great discussion,

I too have no qualms with the mods and see them in a very difficult situation with regard to all the going on's in this forum. And yes Janneppi, I too think the quality of post have taken a a bit of a hit of late. I'v added a few more people on my ignore list and have posted much less than I would prefer. I too scan the threads and more often than not have just decided to stay away from the fracas.

But it's good to see that a bunch of people here recognise the need for improvement in our dialogue. keep up the good work Pino, Mark and Jannepi

[Kevincal]

You have some brown on your nose...

[aryan]

This forum has certainly seen better days, I think we can all agree on that, and the standard of your average post has gone down. It is unfortunate, and has meant that even though I owe so much to this forum, I am now mostly in hibernation, only scanning pages from time to time without getting involved anymore.

I joined this forum to interact with the likes of tinchote, Andrea (who has unfortunatley left us), Arrows, Mark, Carl, David, Gannex, pino, Mickey T, Ian, Paddy, 555, race aficionado, BDunnel, Beans, donkey and even fousto, Bagwan and Valve in their own peculiar way (and many many more which I have now forgotten). A global community of people interested, passionate and knowledgable in F1, loving the sport for what it is while still constructively criticising it, having their own biases and team favouriticisms but able to put all diferences aside and at the end of the day have a good laugh out of most debates and enjoy being part of this forum. Without being disrespectful to any of our new members, I am yet to see real insightfuul posts from any of our new people. The sad bit is that our insightful members seem to be posting less and less often, perhaps getting dismayed by the fact that their knowledgable posts get lost in the vast swamp of flamers and trollers.

While I have had very interesting discussions here with people who have actually designed chassis to real aerodynamist; the last interesting technical conversation we had here, or the last topic which added to our overall body of knowledge has been so long in the past that I can't even recall what it was about.

People, can we all please stop this my team/driver is holier than thine attitude and get back to discussing the sport with all its ups and downs? For pete's sake, racing wise, we have just witnessed one of the best years of F1 in decades! There were times when I thought we would never witness another Villeneuve vs. Arnoux or MS Vs. Hill and yet here we are this year with fantastic races abound and battles such as Massa vs. Kubica and Kimi vs. Heiki which can quite stand their own against famed myth-like historical battles of the '80s and early '90s.

Let's enjoy it while it lasts, and bring back a tad more respect to our fellow forum members...

[Kevincal]

The fact is that you Lewis lovers have this holier than thou British type of attitude and it really rubs the rest of us the wrong way. The forum is divided and there is nothing that can fix that. You Hamilton lovers will love him no matter what for the simple fact he's British. Admit it, you all have been LONGING for a British Champ to come along and you will hear nothing bad about Hamilton even if it were true... I just watched the Speed broadcast of the practice and low and behold the 3 brits on the broadcast team are also taking the holier than though attitude against anyone thats against hamilton. He can do no wrong to British eyes. Whatever. Keep on talking crap about Alonso...THATS OK RIGHT?

[yodasarmpit]

I've only recently returned to the forum, and tbh I'm astonished at some of the posts on here.
I would expect these kind of biased posting on a football forum, but it disappoints me to find them here.
I wish some would take a breath before posting and look at it objectively, then take the time to post your thoughts.

[Mintexmemory]

The fact is that you Lewis lovers have this holier than thou British type of attitude and it really rubs the rest of us the wrong way. The forum is divided and there is nothing that can fix that. You Hamilton lovers will love him no matter what for the simple fact he's British. Admit it, you all have been LONGING for a British Champ to come along and you will hear nothing bad about Hamilton even if it were true... I just watched the Speed broadcast of the practice and low and behold the 3 brits on the broadcast team are also taking the holier than though attitude against anyone thats against hamilton. He can do no wrong to British eyes. Whatever. Keep on talking crap about Alonso...THATS OK RIGHT?

British, 53, long memory! Never liked Button particularly, never have waved a Union Jack at a race meeting. Wasn't overly impressed by Nigel, and while Damon got respect for his long road to the top I didn't get excited by him. What has got me excited this year is the completely stand out excellence of Hamilton's racecraft. If you don't think he is special then you are missing something. Why is it when a Brit is successful we aren't 'allowed' to get behind him. Are you too used to having us to look down on?
To paraphrase the words of America's greatest cultural icon-kiss LH's curvy silver butt!

[ioan]

While I have had very interesting discussions here with people who have actually designed chassis to real aerodynamist; the last interesting technical conversation we had here, or the last topic which added to our overall body of knowledge has been so long in the past that I can't even recall what it was about.

You shouldn't have reminded me about this.
I can't remember any F1 technical thread that went over 50 posts, other than those about cheating allegations.

As I first of all like F1 because it's technical side, I started threads about this but very few people were interested about a thread where is no bashing going around.
The outcome is that I discuss such aspects on model cars forums where they do not care about F1 politics, only the wonderful aspect of the technology.

[ioan]

I would expect these kind of biased posting on a football forum, but it disappoints me to find them here.

I would say it's quite normal. And it might have something to do with the huge media coverage that Hamilton is getting in UK.

I also believe that come November there will be less action around here and many will even forget the existence of this forum before the next season starts.

[Daniel]

I think to be fair the forum is a victim of it's own success. I remember the F1 forum when I first joined back in 2001. It was a place where people were quite friendly and had good discussions without it getting too heated. That was because it was a small community full purely of only people who lived and breathed F1 and were up for a chat about the sport they loved. Then along came more and more people. It's like living in a small town and watching it turn into a larger town and then a city. Something's got to give and almost always it's the standard of behaviour. It's exactly the same in the rally forums except that it's a lot more civil but there are still plenty of people who like to yell "Me too" and so on just like in here. The only solution to that problem would be to have a waiting list of people to get into the F1 forum so you only have 100 active posters at a time. Anyone want that? ;)

I don't think the standard of moderating is lower than at any other time. I'd take Pino and Janneppi over just about any other moderator (J4mie RB and Mark excluded :p ) any day of the week :)

There is no person on this forum (OK perhaps Ioan) who has the level of passion that Pino has for motorsport and and I doubt there's anyone who'd like to have a good chat about it more than Pino.

As for Janneppi he's definitely one the most moderate and reasonable people I've met from this forum so who better to be a moderator?

If there's one thing I think the moderators could do it's to say "Ok you can have 200 posts in this thread about <insert subject here> and then it's going to get closed and that's final. Topics seem to spiral into oblivion in this place and it just bores the crap out of people who are real fans and who just want to chat about a sport which interests them. But of course that flies in the face of free speach. Bugger!

It starts off with "my dog's better than your dog" and then it's like "no! my dog could so kick your dog's arse!" and then it's "no it can't" "yes it can" "Yeah? Well your dog is gay and a Nazi to boot!" "No it isn't!" "Well I saw footage and your dog is clearly gay and he was holding his paw up as if to say Heil Hitler!" "No it's not. My dog came out at a press conference yesterday and said he's not gay and was on the russian's side in WW2!" "I bet he is tho" and so on :dozey:

The facts should be discussed and if people can't agree then they agree to disagree and quit wasting the forum's bandwidth and making forum seem like a place where F1 enthusiasts just don't want to be. I don't even like F1 nearly as much as most of the people here and I find it tremendously irritating how topics spiral into stupidity and moronicity (I made it up) just because people can't agree to disagree and STFU :dozey:

[Ian McC]

Fine post that Truefan, it has sparked some good debate but has also resulted in some of that poor posting that you spoke of, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by that.......

At least we can say, despite all the crap off the track we have had some fine racing on it.

[Daniel]

Fine post that Truefan, it has sparked some good debate but has also resulted in some of that poor posting that you spoke of, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by that.......

At least we can say, despite all the crap off the track we have had some fine racing on it.
No we haven't :p

[Ian McC]

No we haven't :p

:mad:

You want to take this outside??

:p : :p :

[Daniel]

:mad:

You want to take this outside??

:p :
:rolleyes: You're just bitter because you're a LH fan and I'm not and he smells and you won't admit it :hmh:

:p :

[Ian McC]

:rolleyes: You're just bitter because you're a LH fan and I'm not and he smells and you won't admit it :hmh:

:p :

Nah, just wanted you to buy me a pint at the pub :D

[Daniel]

Nah, just wanted you to buy me a pint at the pub :D
We could continue this little forum simulation indefinitely couldn't we :mark:

[jens]

You are talking about bias here. What is interesting that both fansides criticize each other for being biased. Then raises the question that who is after all biased? We have to come to an agreement at that matter. How to clarify this that all of the parties would agree? :p :

[Tazio]

So those who wish to live illusions and pretend this is all some technical race stuff, with some science involved for all of this, where this kind of trash does not occur, is to ignore the hidden reality...as hemingway once said, ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee
Actually it was John Donne the 17th century Priest, Poet, and Womanizer
who said it. "Papa" Borrowed the line for the title of a novel about the Spanish Revolution.
Hemingway was an arrogant, self centered b@$tard that couldn’t have lived his life any further away from this philosophy if his very salvation depended on it. I find it interesting that you chose him as your reference.

No Man is an Island
No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee.


-- John Donne

[Bagwan]

I had a good yack about this with one of our moderators the other day .

It's all about communication .
Through the years here the moderators have come and gone , all burnt up by having to deal with the level of passion that this sport of ours provides .

There have been bannings(anyone remember santa) , and there have been warnings , and then quiet for long periods , just like in F1 . And , largely , they have coincided with each other .

When controversies occur , issues arise with language and name-calling everywhere , just like in F1 .

Not to mention names at all , but my conversation was about a situation where 2 members didn't understand they had deeply insulted each other .
Once explained fully to each , apologies were issued by both .

It's simple .
If you really wish to get your point across , refrain from upsetting your opposite with insults , as they will close their mind to your point , labelling you as someone too blinded in the passion to bother with much more than the same .
That is , if it matters enough to you to type your thoughts , it should matter that you actually get your point across . Otherwise , why bother ?

So , if you think the person you are set to respond to is a goof for thinking the way he/she does , tell him/her why you think differently , and leave out the "you're a goof " part , unless , you wish to waste your own time .


It's a cycle some would call vicious if it was a circle , but we go through these melt-down periods here on the forum from time to time . People learn and forget . People are added to the mix , and subtracted from it .

We'll learn . And then we'll learn again .


Oh yeah , almost forgot !
Aryan , who the hell are you calling "peculiar" ?

Odd or twisted perhaps . Maybe even squirrely , but peculiar ? Hee Hee .

[Tazio]

To paraphrase the words of America's greatest cultural icon-kiss LH's curvy silver butt!Tazio American 53
If you want to go Rock and Roll on us! I think the words of Englands greatest cultural Icon could be L.H's. Mantra.
"Pleased to meet you! Hope you guess my name"
And I mean that in a good way

[Easy Drifter]

I think I am as passionate about motor racing as anybody. I have been following it since 1952. I have been a spectator, marshall, driver, mechanic, crew chief, team mgr., driving instructor, senior official at F1 and USAC races, tech inspector, and although I have never designed a complete car have designed wings and other areo tweaks, and an engine bay. I have been involved in the building from the ground up of two cars. I designed a skirt system for a Ralt RT1 (the first skirted Ralt in NA.) and had a long discussion with Ron Tauranac about my design. He was right, I wasn't. But nobody really knew much about areo then and it was all trial and error. Now I am back to being a spectator. Oh, and I did work for a short time in F1. Today I do not have much of a clue about the real technical aspects of an F1 car and sure couldn't engineer one. I left active racing in 87.
I will happily read any tech discussion but most likely could not contribute much.
This forum can be a little nasty at time but most people do settle down.
The other day I said that I didn't think another poster had been around racing for long and that he had probably had never raced. He corrected me nicely and I apoligized. I hope he accepted it. I still don't agree with him but that is fine as long as we both respect the other's opinion and I do his.
I see no point in calling people names or throwing insults as that accomplishes nothing. Besides he might turn out to be your 6' 8" 280 lb. neighbor.

[aryan]

Oh yeah , almost forgot !
Aryan , who the hell are you calling "peculiar" ?

Odd or twisted perhaps . Maybe even squirrely , but peculiar ? Hee Hee .


Apologies Bagwan, in hindsight and after re-reading my post, I understand that that was not the correct word to use. 'Distinctive' or 'characterful' or even 'animated' were perhaps better words for to describe my intentions.

Write it down as an issue of me not being a native English speaker.

oh, and before I forget:
GREAT POST! :up:

[aryan]

Today I do not have much of a clue about the real technical aspects of an F1 car and sure couldn't engineer one. I left active racing in 87.
I will happily read any tech discussion but most likely could not contribute much.


Believe me, with those credentials, your input is more than appreciated around here.

There was a time when we used to have regular threads on the newest additions to cars on the grid, the new aero parts, the new tyres (back when there was competition) etc., and not just on the aesthetics of it , but people actually tried to get their hands on whatever information they could find around and then try to guestimate the new part's potential effects on the car's performance. Admittedly it was all too unscientific, but in the midst of all these speculations you actually came upon a number of very insightful comments which after the race, turned out to be more or less spot on.

I found those discussions to be much more interesting than my driver is bigger than yours argumnets currently going around.

[wmcot]

You're not alone in that Dave although I don't think it has gotten that much worse over recent times, we just seem to have a different target or two.


For sure the targets have been spread around a bit more since MS retired. Most of the posts then were either for or against MS/Ferrari. Now there are a lot more varied posts degrading various drivers and teams.

[truefan72]

This forum has certainly seen better days, I think we can all agree on that, and the standard of your average post has gone down. It is unfortunate, and has meant that even though I owe so much to this forum, I am now mostly in hibernation, only scanning pages from time to time without getting involved anymore.

I joined this forum to interact with the likes of tinchote, Andrea (who has unfortunatley left us), Arrows, Mark, Carl, David, Gannex, pino, Mickey T, Ian, Paddy, 555, race aficionado, BDunnel, Beans, donkey and even fousto, Bagwan and Valve in their own peculiar way (and many many more which I have now forgotten). A global community of people interested, passionate and knowledgable in F1, loving the sport for what it is while still constructively criticising it, having their own biases and team favouriticisms but able to put all diferences aside and at the end of the day have a good laugh out of most debates and enjoy being part of this forum. Without being disrespectful to any of our new members, I am yet to see real insightfuul posts from any of our new people. The sad bit is that our insightful members seem to be posting less and less often, perhaps getting dismayed by the fact that their knowledgable posts get lost in the vast swamp of flamers and trollers.

While I have had very interesting discussions here with people who have actually designed chassis to real aerodynamist; the last interesting technical conversation we had here, or the last topic which added to our overall body of knowledge has been so long in the past that I can't even recall what it was about.

People, can we all please stop this my team/driver is holier than thine attitude and get back to discussing the sport with all its ups and downs? For pete's sake, racing wise, we have just witnessed one of the best years of F1 in decades! There were times when I thought we would never witness another Villeneuve vs. Arnoux or MS Vs. Hill and yet here we are this year with fantastic races abound and battles such as Massa vs. Kubica and Kimi vs. Heiki which can quite stand their own against famed myth-like historical battles of the '80s and early '90s.

Let's enjoy it while it lasts, and bring back a tad more respect to our fellow forum members...

:up: here, here

[truefan72]

Believe me, with those credentials, your input is more than appreciated around here.

There was a time when we used to have regular threads on the newest additions to cars on the grid, the new aero parts, the new tyres (back when there was competition) etc., and not just on the aesthetics of it , but people actually tried to get their hands on whatever information they could find around and then try to guestimate the new part's potential effects on the car's performance. Admittedly it was all too unscientific, but in the midst of all these speculations you actually came upon a number of very insightful comments which after the race, turned out to be more or less spot on.

I found those discussions to be much more interesting than my driver is bigger than yours argumnets currently going around.

Yes, those discussions would be of real interest to most of us in here.

[Tazio]

Believe me, with those credentials, your input is more than appreciated around here.

There was a time when we used to have regular threads on the newest additions to cars on the grid, the new aero parts, the new tyres (back when there was competition) etc., and not just on the aesthetics of it , but people actually tried to get their hands on whatever information they could find around and then try to guestimate the new part's potential effects on the car's performance. Admittedly it was all too unscientific, but in the midst of all these speculations you actually came upon a number of very insightful comments which after the race, turned out to be more or less spot on.

I found those discussions to be much more interesting than my driver is bigger than yours argumnets currently going around.
I have given this forum a thorough Tabloidoscopy!
My conclusion.
It needs a Tabliodectomy.
But I don't want to leave.

[fandango]

I don't think this forum has got worse. What happens is that people change, so it becomes a case of "the devil you know". When new people come along and discussions get heated it seems worse than when it's the same old people.

One way things could improve is for people to try to show that they understand another person's point of view. Oddly enough this becomes much more important when it's a view that's not shared. But you can't moderate that.

[patnicholls]

There are some good posts and points made in this thread. It is a tricky time at present, particularly over here in F1 with all the shenanigans - pino and janneppi are working hard at the minute and the rest of us have started having more of a look in here too. [despite having seen virtually every F1 race in the last 14 years, I don't post in the F1 section]

On the subject of us Mods, it should be borne in mind that across the whole of Motorsport Forums there's no more than 15 of us in total, covering all the sections. And we're subject to the same time constraints as everyone else - our jobs, study, other half, friends, family, hobbies besides racing, etc. Modding is a voluntary (well, you have to be picked by Mark or another Mod and agree to it) activity besides that. Some Mods aren't on that often. So it's inevitable some things will get missed or lack of time will mean we don't come to a satisfactory conclusion and end up leaving something untouched. We are doing our best!

Overall everyone on this forum is a big fan of racing, otherwise you wouldn't be on here - you don't really get casual fans on forums. Although conversely some folk I've met who know the most about racing never set foot on a forum, mind you. We don't want to be deleting your thoughts on racing unless we absolutely have to :p (and with some of the stuff in here at present, we do get tempted!).

For me, posting on a forum is a matter of common sense. If you're not making a relevant, appropriate or interesting point, don't post. Don't get into a personal argument with someone you'll never meet - it's ridiculous (you're typing furious anger into a small text box?) and you won't achieve anything by it. Why get riled up by it?

[jens]

I think one of the reasons for more emotional comments (also from me) is that the season is coming to an end and with the tight championship battle tensions are high. I don't quite remember, how the discussions here looked like about a year ago, but I guess after the season people will calm down at least a little bit, when the dust has settled down.

[janneppi]

I remember my first post in F1 side around 2002(ish), I wondered why everyone are always at each others throats here. Of course I was told to bugger off if I can't stand the heat. ;)
Tried to find it yesterday, but it's disappeared somewhere. :(

[BDunnell]

I remember my first post in F1 side around 2002(ish), I wondered why everyone are always at each others throats here. Of course I was told to bugger off if I can't stand the heat. ;)
Tried to find it yesterday, but it's disappeared somewhere. :(

Well, I for one am finding it increasingly easy to become irritated with certain posters, as they continue to spew out the same conspiracy theories over and over again, to the detriment of sensible discussion.

[markabilly]

Well, I for one am finding it increasingly easy to become irritated with certain posters, as they continue to spew out the same conspiracy theories over and over again, to the detriment of sensible discussion.
Unfortunately for F1, it seems to be the only sensible answer to the lack of logic and fair play demonstrated over and over again this season by our heroes in power and as long as people are willing to put their head in the sand, it will continue leaving folks to engage in endless sensible discussions trying to understand the logic and fair play as though this is some abstract riddle and mystery, and sooner or later, they will find the logical answer is based on the facts as in a great drama....

when in the end, they can not, because that answer was never there...

[BDunnell]

Unfortunately for F1, it seems to be the only sensible answer to the lack of logic and fair play demonstrated over and over again this season by our heroes in power and as long as people are willing to put their head in the sand, it will continue leaving folks to engage in endless sensible discussions trying to understand the logic and fair play as though some abstract riddle and mystery, and sooner or later, they will find the logical answer is based on the facts as in a great drama....

when in the end, they can not, because that answer was never there...

I rarely think that conspiracy theories are ever sensible.

It is also, often, impossible to ever convince those who espouse them that they are wrong.

[Kevincal]

Life is full of conspiracies... Life is one big conspiracy! :P

[Ian McC]

Well, I for one am finding it increasingly easy to become irritated with certain posters, as they continue to spew out the same conspiracy theories over and over again, to the detriment of sensible discussion.

Actually BD I had noticed! :D

It's difficult not to get sucked in to be honest

[BDunnell]

Actually BD I had noticed! :D

It's difficult not to get sucked in to be honest

I'm not surprised! Thanks for your understanding.

[tinchote]

Well, I for one am finding it increasingly easy to become irritated with certain posters, as they continue to spew out the same conspiracy theories over and over again, to the detriment of sensible discussion.

I agree with that. But it's been like that for as long as I've been here. And of course you will never find a single case of someone talking about conspiracy theory favouring his driver. How convenient :mark:

[BeansBeansBeans]

I just wish there could be a bit more humour on here, and a bit more humility. A bit of banter between two level-headed fans with opposing views is healthy, but at the moment there are just too many genuinely hateful, cynical, mean-spirited diatribes. People trying to upset each other, and score points. It's just a sport, and this is just a forum. Let's enjoy it.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I just wish that there were more threads about F1 RACING.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I just wish that there were more threads about F1 RACING.

Why? It's a terrible magazine :p :

[BDunnell]

I just wish there could be a bit more humour on here, and a bit more humility. A bit of banter between two level-headed fans with opposing views is healthy, but at the moment there are just too many genuinely hateful, cynical, mean-spirited diatribes. People trying to upset each other, and score points. It's just a sport, and this is just a forum. Let's enjoy it.

Unfortunately, I am beginning to think that this is becoming impossible, because of those individuals with over-active imaginations starting to hijack practically every thread about the issues in F1 at the moment. This makes it very difficult to ignore these people, because it's everywhere. I have just stopped myself posting in one thread for this very reason — because it would have looked like a personal attack on someone whose opinion I don't take seriously.

[aryan]

Unfortunately, I am beginning to think that this is becoming impossible, because of those individuals with over-active imaginations starting to hijack practically every thread about the issues in F1 at the moment. This makes it very difficult to ignore these people, because it's everywhere. I have just stopped myself posting in one thread for this very reason — because it would have looked like a personal attack on someone whose opinion I don't take seriously.


Just a personal advice for you: I am finding the ignore button to have become very handy in the past couple of months. Helps to keep the threads short, and to keep your focus on the real discussion.

Just a thought... :D

[Jag_Warrior]

Every new crop of drivers draws a new crop of posters. Except for the outright trolls, most either learn the ropes and eventually fit in or they leave in time.

Some years are better or worse than others. But I really can't tell that the F1 forum is much different in tone than how it's always been. The IRL and Champ Car forums, on the other hand... both series are so pitiful now that most of the IRL and Champ Car fans actually get along these days. I'd say that's the biggest change that's taken place in the 7 or so years that I've been here.

[airshifter]

The more things change, the more they stay the same!

Overall I think this forums members are slightly more civil than they were in years past. With the Hamilton hates coming on strong, that could change. It seemed to be the MS haters that were the worst in previous years.

This forum has had in my opinion, excellent moderators from the day I joined until present. I stayed here after checking out quite a few other F1 forums for that primary reason.



I learned years ago that some people will work any angle to support their driver, and never admit their driver or team was at fault. I for the most part ignore those people, even if they support my view on some occasions. Those other posters that seem more open to dealing with facts are the ones whose posts I read completely, often looking for facts which may influence my view on the situation.

And it's those posters that I feel have an open minded view to reality that make this a solid forum in my opinion. I would hope that someday some of us can gather at a race and support our favorite drivers and teams.

[markabilly]

I just wish there could be a bit more humour on here, and a bit more humility. A bit of banter between two level-headed fans with opposing views is healthy, but at the moment there are just too many genuinely hateful, cynical, mean-spirited diatribes. People trying to upset each other, and score points. It's just a sport, and this is just a forum. Let's enjoy it.


I agree with that. But it's been like that for as long as I've been here. And of course you will never find a single case of someone talking about conspiracy theory favouring his driver. How convenient :mark:


I rarely think that conspiracy theories are ever sensible.

It is also, often, impossible to ever convince those who espouse them that they are wrong.


Actually BD I had noticed! :D

It's difficult not to get sucked in to be honest

okay per other thread I apologize like a true apologist....I don't know what I was thinking--


There is no conspiracy. What happenned at the second hearing was justice without question, and Mac truly merited the 100 million dollar fine, loss of WCC, and Freddie the blackmailer truly deserved immunity, and to keep all points, and not only that, but everyone at Mac has always loved and worshipped FA, given him the best car, the best pit stops, and will continue to do so, no matter what he or RD say.......and LH is a better driver than FA will ever be, who has never ever done anything wrong.....

and every FIA investigation is always a fair, thorough investigation that never considers "the good of the sport" as being the same as doing whatever to enhance revenue...

and bernard would never sell junked used cars to little old ladies or lie to any of us, and Saint Max is a saint who always pursues truth and justice, and never the financial interests of his buddies and fellow investors in the business


happy now??


:rotflmao:

[BDunnell]

I wouldn't normally raise this 'in public', as it were, but I've had it up to here with all the blatant crap being posted on this part of the forum at the moment. It is becoming utterly impossible to have a sensible discussion, because the moment anyone tries to — no matter what their point of view — someone comes in with another tiresome comment, mostly along the lines of it all being a conspiracy.

I would dearly love to debate these matters with those on the forum (and there are many) who, whatever their own team/driver views, are real F1 enthusiasts, whose views aren't motivated by blind partisanship above all else, and who, in short, actually seem to like the sport and enjoy it for all its many faults. Unfortunately, all of those people are getting drowned out in an increasing tide of drivel, which is leading to some of us who would rather not do so having to get a bit more personal in our responses. We all have our disagreements on these forums, of course, but in the current climate on the F1 forum it is becoming impossible to avoid them while continuing to respond to all the rubbish, and thus attempt to continue some form of debate.

Apologies for going on in this way, but I wanted to get this off my chest — and I'm sure there are others who agree.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm sure there are others who agree.
There are :up:

[Garry Walker]

There are :up:

Seconded :up:

[Daniel]

I wouldn't normally raise this 'in public', as it were, but I've had it up to here with all the blatant crap being posted on this part of the forum at the moment. It is becoming utterly impossible to have a sensible discussion, because the moment anyone tries to — no matter what their point of view — someone comes in with another tiresome comment, mostly along the lines of it all being a conspiracy.

I would dearly love to debate these matters with those on the forum (and there are many) who, whatever their own team/driver views, are real F1 enthusiasts, whose views aren't motivated by blind partisanship above all else, and who, in short, actually seem to like the sport and enjoy it for all its many faults. Unfortunately, all of those people are getting drowned out in an increasing tide of drivel, which is leading to some of us who would rather not do so having to get a bit more personal in our responses. We all have our disagreements on these forums, of course, but in the current climate on the F1 forum it is becoming impossible to avoid them while continuing to respond to all the rubbish, and thus attempt to continue some form of debate.

Apologies for going on in this way, but I wanted to get this off my chest — and I'm sure there are others who agree.
People don't want to discuss the facts. The facts are boring! When Lewis' wheel assembly failed and he went off it would have been so easy to put it down to a faulty wheel gun but why let the truth get in the way of a good story when you can implicate the FIA, Max and Bernie in some kind of silly conspiracy. Also I think that loyalty to a driver/team is too strong at times. If I found out that Citroen and Sebastien Loeb were cheating I wouldn't stand by them saying it must be a conspiracy or everyone's doing it or something. Lets stick to the facts and no more than that! I thought it might be fun to discuss F1 this year being that it's been different without Michael. How wrong I was! It's no fun at all.

[BDunnell]

People don't want to discuss the facts. The facts are boring! When Lewis' wheel assembly failed and he went off it would have been so easy to put it down to a faulty wheel gun but why let the truth get in the way of a good story when you can implicate the FIA, Max and Bernie in some kind of silly conspiracy. Also I think that loyalty to a driver/team is too strong at times. If I found out that Citroen and Sebastien Loeb were cheating I wouldn't stand by them saying it must be a conspiracy or everyone's doing it or something. Lets stick to the facts and no more than that! I thought it might be fun to discuss F1 this year being that it's been different without Michael. How wrong I was! It's no fun at all.

:up:

I have never had a disagreement with anyone on the World Rallying forum along the lines of some in the F1 forums of late. On the WRC forum, there is room for lots of views, there are some really excellent and enjoyable debates, lots of knowledge of the sport and it's all friendly. I feel embarrassed to have lowered myself to the level of some in the F1 forum, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to discuss anything without it becoming personal.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Seconded :up:

Thirded :up:

[Daniel]

I've just stated I won't post in the F1 forum till things change. Sad thing is the mods really can't force people to better the quality of their posts. I draw the line at being told we should make motorsport more dangerous than it should be!!!!!

Problem solved.

[Daniel]

:up:

I have never had a disagreement with anyone on the World Rallying forum along the lines of some in the F1 forums of late. On the WRC forum, there is room for lots of views, there are some really excellent and enjoyable debates, lots of knowledge of the sport and it's all friendly. I feel embarrassed to have lowered myself to the level of some in the F1 forum, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to discuss anything without it becoming personal.
Same here. I've been a bit rude in the F1 forums myself. But I disagree with people being blind to printed fact (For instance that McLaren "cheated") and also when something is open to interpretation (meaning people should be allowed to have different opinons) being told that I'm wrong for having my opinion and so on. It's not a discussion forum in there at all. It's just an argument forum or a telling people what to think forum. That's rubbish.

[Flat.tyres]

Same here. I've been a bit rude in the F1 forums myself. But I disagree with people being blind to printed fact (For instance that McLaren "cheated") and also when something is open to interpretation (meaning people should be allowed to have different opinons) being told that I'm wrong for having my opinion and so on. It's not a discussion forum in there at all. It's just an argument forum or a telling people what to think forum. That's rubbish.

Daniel

When you selectively quote something that is taken out of context, you must expect people to post the full facts. Problem is that you then take that as some sort of insult, claim you are being railroaded and send a string of insulting PM's.

Please stop crying wolf.

[Daniel]

Daniel

When you selectively quote something that is taken out of context, you must expect people to post the full facts. Problem is that you then take that as some sort of insult, claim you are being railroaded and send a string of insulting PM's.

Please stop crying wolf.
It's opinion. Don't accuse fact which can be proved in a court and opinion which can't be. I had an opinion on what was written and you disagreed with it. Fair enough but don't crap on someone's opinion because it's not yours. It is insulting to be told you're wrong coz I says so.

This thread is not about airing a particular grievance with a particular person. Hence I didn't mention your name.

[markabilly]

:up:

I have never had a disagreement with anyone on the World Rallying forum along the lines of some in the F1 forums of late. On the WRC forum, there is room for lots of views, there are some really excellent and enjoyable debates, lots of knowledge of the sport and it's all friendly. I feel embarrassed to have lowered myself to the level of some in the F1 forum, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to discuss anything without it becoming personal.

While I have been personally attacked repeatedly for pointing out what I believe is the "machievallen logic" behind the apparent lack of logic in these decisions that others point to as favoritism, loyalty to a team, or whatever, my real purpose is to argue how machievallan F1 has become with its stifling influence over the entire sport, where fair play and justice (as pointed out repeatedly by many of you in the deabte over "cheating") has become lost

And is something that can only be restored if one truly recognizes its source and acts to eliminate Machievallen politics from having the ability to influence F1......

Yet I have never personally insulted any of you by calling you idiots, paranoid, cospiracy nut, thumping on a bible or whatever...gee here i am whining like I was an F1 driver......I just wish I could go off in the corner and count my million dollar paycheck for doing something that I have always regarded as pure fun........

oh well..... :D

[Flat.tyres]

It's opinion. Don't accuse fact which can be proved in a court and opinion which can't be. I had an opinion on what was written and you disagreed with it. Fair enough but don't crap on someone's opinion because it's not yours. It is insulting to be told you're wrong coz I says so.

This thread is not about airing a particular grievance with a particular person. Hence I didn't mention your name.

Yes, but we both know what it was about, don't we ;)

You brought up a grievance on this thread which is fine. I expressed an opinion as to why you might feel like that which I hope you can accept as well.

There is no point having a thread with a load of blind rhetoric if we don't move things forward that people are unhappy about. What is the point of this thread otherwise?

Personally, I want to debate with people here in an open manner. Sometimes, people think I am dogged and I accept that and I am. I tend to question people and don't let them get away with claiming something without backing it up. If you have a weak arguement, this exposes it and people feel threatened by that. That's not my problem.

Garry often has an opposite opinion to me but backs it up with his rational behind it. OK, it's often wrong ( ;) ) but he explains his claims and I respect that. Mark is the same. Most of what he says centers around his theory and he has qualified what he claims to the n'th degree. Personally, I think a lot of is the result of too much Kool Aid but he has qualified why he believes that and will defend his position and accept alternative opinions.

Where we get our knickers in a twist on here is with stupid claims that people fail to back up or even try to explain, which is where a lot of frustration exists. If someone posts something then it's understandable if others point out where the facts are wrong or questionable. That's not having a go and trying to ridicule anyone but something called debate.

[Easy Drifter]

Well, all you have to do to see how nasty it is getting is to go to the Max Mosely thread. Oh, and some of the nasty ones are decrying it here.
I try my best not to insult anyone here but it is hard at times I agree.

[Daniel]

Yes, but we both know what it was about, don't we ;)

You brought up a grievance on this thread which is fine. I expressed an opinion as to why you might feel like that which I hope you can accept as well.

There is no point having a thread with a load of blind rhetoric if we don't move things forward that people are unhappy about. What is the point of this thread otherwise?

Personally, I want to debate with people here in an open manner. Sometimes, people think I am dogged and I accept that and I am. I tend to question people and don't let them get away with claiming something without backing it up. If you have a weak arguement, this exposes it and people feel threatened by that. That's not my problem.

Garry often has an opposite opinion to me but backs it up with his rational behind it. OK, it's often wrong ( ;) ) but he explains his claims and I respect that. Mark is the same. Most of what he says centers around his theory and he has qualified what he claims to the n'th degree. Personally, I think a lot of is the result of too much Kool Aid but he has qualified why he believes that and will defend his position and accept alternative opinions.

Where we get our knickers in a twist on here is with stupid claims that people fail to back up or even try to explain, which is where a lot of frustration exists. If someone posts something then it's understandable if others point out where the facts are wrong or questionable. That's not having a go and trying to ridicule anyone but something called debate.
Yes but I had the class not to mention your name. Attack the post and not the poster is the rule.

[Flat.tyres]

Yes but I had the class not to mention your name. Attack the post and not the poster is the rule.

I don't mind being called names Daniel, I have pointed that out previously and I admit, you're a classy fellow :p :

But this is a thread about posting and the current problems. When I questioned your post on the other thread, you got personal :rolleyes:

Anyway, lets agree to disagree as we don't want another thread drifting down the sewer :D

[Daniel]

I don't mind being called names Daniel, I have pointed that out previously and I admit, you're a classy fellow :p :

But this is a thread about posting and the current problems. When I questioned your post on the other thread, you got personal :rolleyes:

Anyway, lets agree to disagree as we don't want another thread drifting down the sewer :D
Just agree to disagree in the future. That's all I ask.

[markabilly]

Garry often has an opposite opinion to me but backs it up with his rational behind it. OK, it's often wrong ( ;) ) but he explains his claims and I respect that. Mark is the same. Most of what he says centers around his theory and he has qualified what he claims to the n'th degree. Personally, I think a lot of is the result of too much Kool Aid but he has qualified why he believes that and will defend his position and accept alternative opinions.

.
Yes but as someone once said, "the plans of mice and men oft go astray" so my theory does depend on the players playing their roles correctly.......

because sometimes they just go off all by themselves into a gravel trap........ :eek:

[Flat.tyres]

Yes but as someone once said, "the plans of mice and men oft go astray" so my theory does depend on the players playing their roles correctly.......

because sometimes they just go off all by themselves into a gravel trap........ :eek:

And some massage the evidence to fit their theories you old rogue :p :

What should have happened is the C of C to put out the safety car as the Pit was in a dangerous state, recovered Lewis in front of the pack and given Freddy and Kimi a stop go for being cheeky :D

[Easy Drifter]

But Flat according to Markabilly the safety car is too slow to be safe.

[Flat.tyres]

But Flat according to Markabilly the safety car is too slow to be safe.

:laugh: But, which parrallel universe are you refering. Mark would have the Trotters in the Robin Reliant out there to prove the theory ;)

And, bring it back to the title of the thread, that is what it's all about. Hard debating, a bit of mickey taking and to have a bit of fun.

I just have this picture of the race going green with Dell boy in the Reliant safety car refusing to let the drivers past saying "Mark my words Rodney, by the end of the season, we'll be Millionaires"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/945000/images/_945083_fools300.jpg

[markabilly]

But Flat according to Markabilly the safety car is too slow to be safe.


Some say it is fast enough, so the weaving stuff and all is unnecessary

or if too slow, then I guess it is necessary....

I do not know the answer, even though I have very diligently read and researched my copy of "the prince" over and over, but I can not even find the term "safety car" in it so I just dunno know at all what to think.... :confused: :confused:

[trumperZ06]

Some say it is fast enough, so the weaving stuff and all is unnecessary

or if too slow, then I guess it is necessary....

I do not know the answer, even though I have very diligently read and researched my copy of "the prince" over and over, but I can not even find the term "safety car" in it so I just dunno know at all what to think.... :confused: :confused:

:p : The Mercedes Safety car is more than adaquate for the task !!!

Try to find another excuse for the incident !!!

:rolleyes: The issue in question was the result of a wet track...

It was RAINING... which caused the safety car to slowly enter the corners! Then, the driver of the safety car early apexed, causing Hamilton to overtake.

:s mokin:

[markabilly]

:p : The Mercedes Safety car is more than adaquate for the task !!!

Try to find another excuse for the incident !!!

:rolleyes: The issue in question was the result of a wet track...

It was RAINING... which caused the safety car to slowly enter the corners! Then, the driver of the safety car early apexed, causing Hamilton to overtake.

:s mokin:
As per my point before, why not have a much faster and better handling sc, that can run at high speed, sufficiently fast to keep tires hot and brakes up to snuf, without all this at random, stop start, slam on the rbakes and weave, whcih is what seems to be happening too much way too much, or else it is really unnecessary, and drivers are just playing games?

If the SC went faster through some of the corners then there should be no problem.....the SC caould not match the mac, so it slowed--well my point is, that a bit better handling car might not have those issues...or they need to define an area for tire warm up only---of course the other thing that cracks me up, is the idea of SC is too slow the cars down to make it safe for race track personnel, yet any car not in the bunch up, that comes out of the pits or whatever, seems to blast around at full speed to catch up.....

[ArrowsFA1]

We Mods are here only to keep this place clear and confortable and at the end of the day, only your posts and comments gives quality to this forum ;)
Just my final thought on "forum standards"...pino is absolutely right :up: The mods do a great job but they, more often than not, are reacting to posts. The responsibility for those posts rests with those posting.

[leopard]

I am sure after taking holiday pino would be more hospitable towards members.

Now I am heading to the said holiday

[pino]

Just my final thought on "forum standards"...pino is absolutely right :up: The mods do a great job but they, more often than not, are reacting to posts. The responsibility for those posts rests with those posting.

Thanks :D

[pino]

I am sure after taking holiday pino would be more hospitable towards members.



I am hospitable, unfortunately too often you Guys force me to be harsh, and believe me I do not enjoy been that way :(

[leopard]

I am hospitable, unfortunately too often you Guys force me to be harsh, and believe me I do not enjoy been that way :(
My little daughter has been annoying when asking my attention for what she is doing, but I love it :)

[jens]

Actually a forum is like politics. We can see different ideologies and interpretations here, also heated debates and everyone is keen to defend and justify their own views.

What is missing? Elections. Maybe we should organize one. :D So we can get an answer, whose propaganda has been the best.

[janneppi]

We already have polls here. :)

[BDunnell]

Actually a forum is like politics. We can see different ideologies and interpretations here, also heated debates and everyone is keen to defend and justify their own views.

What is missing? Elections. Maybe we should organize one. :D So we can get an answer, whose propaganda has been the best.

:laugh: Excellent idea. That or a real live fight.

[Easy Drifter]

Wet noodles at 20 paces.