It's like a playground

[Flat.tyres]

I don't think there is any other sport or business that has so many personality conflicts, grudges, favouritism and battles going on. On top of that, it seems to be the people in charge of the sport, the very people that should be impartial, that are involved.

Max Vs Ron
Max Vs JS
Max Vs everyone else
Bernie Vs BRDC
McLaren Vs Ferrari
Max :kiss: Ferrari
Bernie :kiss: Ferrari
Bernie :kiss: Flav
Etc, etc, etc.

How can we ever hope to have a clean and fair Formula with all this going on?

I don't think there is any other sport or business that has so many personality conflicts, grudges, favouritism and battles going on. On top of that, it seems to be the people in charge of the sport, the very people that should be impartial, that are involved.

Max Vs Ron
Max Vs JS
Max Vs everyone else
Bernie Vs BRDC
McLaren Vs Ferrari
Max :kiss: Ferrari
Bernie :kiss: Ferrari
Bernie :kiss: Flav
Etc, etc, etc.

How can we ever hope to have a clean and fair Formula with all this going on?

When teams stop cheating?

[Flat.tyres]

When teams stop cheating?

Same old, same old :rolleyes:

Post #2 takes the thread off course back to a tired, boring reprtitive arguement. Can we get back to the topic now? :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

I don't think there is any other sport or business that has so many personality conflicts, grudges, favouritism and battles going on. On top of that, it seems to be the people in charge of the sport, the very people that should be impartial, that are involved.

Max Vs Ron
Max Vs JS
Max Vs everyone else
Bernie Vs BRDC
McLaren Vs Ferrari
Max :kiss: Ferrari
Bernie :kiss: Ferrari
Bernie :kiss: Flav
Etc, etc, etc.

How can we ever hope to have a clean and fair Formula with all this going on?


When money/revenue stops being the issue...there are only so many billions to be had, and everyone wants one or two .... :D


Love and hate is for public consumption...just like it is in pro westling.....

[SGWilko]

When money/revenue stops being the issue...there are only so many billions to be had, and everyone wants one or two .... :D


Love and hate is for public consumption...just like it is in pro westling.....

The FIA is supposed to be not for profit right? So why can't Bernies Bandwagon also operate on that basis, and any revenue stream that is created be ploughed back into safety and renovating tracks who's country's government could not give two hoots about.....

(I refer to such as Imola, Brazil, Suzuka etc)

Oh, and maybe even Silverstone please! ;)

[markabilly]

Same old, same old :rolleyes:

Post #2 takes the thread off course back to a tired, boring reprtitive arguement. Can we get back to the topic now? :rolleyes:


Okay--remove all economic incentives from the people making the top decisions, eliminate conflicts of interests by very strong rules and so forth

(ie Bernie can not have and own his own circuits, where he contracts out GP races...no tv revenue for bernie....no under the table deals....no business partnerships as with Flavio......is just a small step in the right direction.....but reality, well, one can only dream...)

[ioan]

I don't think there is any other sport or business that has so many personality conflicts, grudges, favouritism and battles going on. On top of that, it seems to be the people in charge of the sport, the very people that should be impartial, that are involved.

Max Vs Ron
Max Vs JS
Max Vs everyone else
Bernie Vs BRDC
McLaren Vs Ferrari
Max :kiss: Ferrari
Bernie :kiss: Ferrari
Bernie :kiss: Flav
Etc, etc, etc.

How can we ever hope to have a clean and fair Formula with all this going on?

Completing your (biased) list:

Bernie :kiss: LH
Bernie :kiss: RD & McLaren

And there are many others (like almost all the teams).

[Flat.tyres]

Completing your (biased) list:

Bernie :kiss: LH
Bernie :kiss: RD & McLaren

And there are many others (like almost all the teams).

I agree that Bernie loves LH as the kid has set F1 alight which is what bernie needs but Bernie and McLaren? Pleaseeeeee.

Bernie and Max have long professed their love for Ferrari.

[SGWilko]

Completing your (biased) list:

Bernie :kiss: LH
Bernie :kiss: RD & McLaren

And there are many others (like almost all the teams).

Where there is money, there is a foul stench. And I don't mean because Bernie is losing control of his muscles in his old age, bless his little purpose built, hand stitched, gold plated, platinum sprayed, diamond encrusted socks.

Just as long people are foolish enough to bow down to Berie's financial demands, he'll keep doin' the deals.

Same old, same old :rolleyes:

Post #2 takes the thread off course back to a tired, boring reprtitive arguement. Can we get back to the topic now? :rolleyes:

Post 2 is merely indicative of the situation in F1.

When there are people willing to cheat, or to further their own course through bending the rules or just general application of pressure, irrespective of the colour of the car they happen to own/work for, then there is no chance of other people not trying to forge alliances to better their own chances.

The fact that you think that the influence of cheats should be dismissed with a roll of the eyes pretty much explains why you are surprised that there are alliances and battles between the main players.

Formula One wasn't called the Piranha club for no reason.

And the man who coined that phrase? Why, that would be Ron Dennis.

Now there is a man who should know, as he has been practicising the very virtues you decry for the past three decades.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Coruption is rampaging thoughout Formula One... From the Top (ie. Bernie & Max) on down to mid-level management amongst the teams.

IMO...The FIA needs to "clean house" and bring in new management...

if there's to be any chance to re-establish respect and ethical rules enforcement.


:s mokin:

[redson]

The FIA is supposed to be not for profit right? So why can't Bernies Bandwagon also operate on that basis, and any revenue stream that is created be ploughed back into safety and renovating tracks who's country's government could not give two hoots about.....

(I refer to such as Imola, Brazil, Suzuka etc)

Oh, and maybe even Silverstone please! ;)

The FIA is not for profit? Then they should give to the F1 fans the $ 100 mill. Does anybody agree with me?

[SGWilko]

:dozey: Coruption is rampaging thoughout Formula One... From the Top (ie. Bernie & Max) on down to mid-level management amongst the teams.

IMO...The FIA needs to "clean house" and bring in new management...

if there's to be any chance to re-establish respect and ethical rules enforcement.


:s mokin:

It's been going on for years. It's one of the faults in humans.

Why do you suppose Adam took the apple from the tree?

[BDunnell]

Post 2 is merely indicative of the situation in F1.

When there are people willing to cheat, or to further their own course through bending the rules or just general application of pressure, irrespective of the colour of the car they happen to own/work for, then there is no chance of other people not trying to forge alliances to better their own chances.

The fact that you think that the influence of cheats should be dismissed with a roll of the eyes pretty much explains why you are surprised that there are alliances and battles between the main players.

Formula One wasn't called the Piranha club for no reason.

And the man who coined that phrase? Why, that would be Ron Dennis.

Now there is a man who should know, as he has been practicising the very virtues you decry for the past three decades.

You talk as if espionage and rule-bending are something new under the F1 sun. We all know they aren't.

[BDunnell]

Oh, and another thing — I presume everybody saying that there's too much money in F1 is a socialist? Otherwise, I don't think there's much basis for complaint.

[schmenke]

I can't think of any other sport where such effort is put into the quest for disrepute of other teams and/or participants.
I can't think of any other sport where the success of a team and or participant is immediately questioned and the search for evidence of wrong-doing is so intensely sought.
I can’t think of any other sport that is regulated by a governing body, whose members have little or no experience in the sport itself, that has the authority to arbitrarily pass judgment on the actions of the participants, affecting the outcome of the championship.

The sport is becoming increasingly embarrassing every year :down:

[trumperZ06]

It's been going on for years. It's one of the faults in humans.

Why do you suppose Adam took the apple from the tree?

;) That's why governments were formed, laws established, law enforcement evolved... to protect the sheep from the predators !!!

When the predators gain control of the system... they tend to manipulate it for their own benefit.

:s mokin:

[BDunnell]

I can’t think of any other sport that is regulated by a governing body, whose members have little or no experience in the sport itself, that has the authority to arbitrarily pass judgment on the actions of the participants, affecting the outcome of the championship.

Some may say that Mosley's level of past F1 experience makes him inappropriate for the role, because it makes him view such behaviour as you mentioned elsewhere in your post as being a fact of F1 life, when it shouldn't be.

[SGWilko]

When the predators gain control of the system... they tend to manipulate it for their own benefit.

:s mokin:

The head nail hit the on

You talk as if espionage and rule-bending are something new under the F1 sun. We all know they aren't.

Au contraire.

I'm saying exactly that espionage and rule-bending has always been thus, just as alliances and politics and manipulation have.

It was, if anything, the first post in this thread that seemed surprised by it.

[BDunnell]

Au contraire.

I'm saying exactly that espionage and rule-bending has always been thus, just as alliances and politics and manipulation have.

It was, if anything, the first post in this thread that seemed surprised by it.

Ah, I now see that you weren't referring especially to recent events. Apologies.

[Flat.tyres]

Au contraire.

I'm saying exactly that espionage and rule-bending has always been thus, just as alliances and politics and manipulation have.

It was, if anything, the first post in this thread that seemed surprised by it.

Not surprised by it but highlighting the destruction these personal battles and innapropiate relationships between teams and the Governing body cause.

My persoanl view is that F1 has reached a mass where it will implode. It cannot carry on like this and until the FIA is radically altered to become a fair and impartial body, it will get worse.

The FIA has no credability and that is where we need to start. I don't care how many brick bats Ferrari and McLaren throw at each other as long as the playing field is level.

The FIA has no credability

It has enough credibility for all the teams to sign up to the new Concorde agreement.

If, for example, Ron Dennis did not believe that the FIA has credibility, then he is either stupid or implicated with the lack of credibility or just plain greedy, no?

[trumperZ06]

Not surprised by it but highlighting the destruction these personal battles and innapropiate relationships between teams and the Governing body cause.

My persoanl view is that F1 has reached a mass where it will implode. It cannot carry on like this and until the FIA is radically altered to become a fair and impartial body, it will get worse.

The FIA has no credability and that is where we need to start. I don't care how many brick bats Ferrari and McLaren throw at each other as long as the playing field is level.

;) Someone in another post has compared Stepneygate to Watergate... and anticipated simular results.

We are wittnessing...

A 3rd rate bit of espionage, undergoing investigation...

uncovering a rotten core of coruption...

spread thoughout the system,

from top to bottom!!!

I've said earlier that I didn't think Mad Max would survive the scadalious way he handled this investigation,

and it's beginning to look like it's simply a matter of time... before he falls !!!

:s mokin:

[Bagwan]

Max tried to leave already , but nobody would let him .


;) Someone in another post has compared Stepneygate to Watergate... and anticipated simular results.

We are wittnessing...

A 3rd rate bit of espionage, undergoing investigation...

uncovering a rotten core of coruption...

spread thoughout the system,

from top to bottom!!!

I've said earlier that I didn't think Mad Max would survive the scadalious way he handled this investigation,

and it's beginning to look like it's simply a matter of time... before he falls !!!

:s mokin:

[SGWilko]

Max tried to leave already , but nobody would let him .

He knew what he was doing. He wanted to test the water to see how tenable his position was. It proved he had a strong position, so engineered a situation resulting in his post being renewed.

Look where we are now.....

[BDunnell]

My persoanl view is that F1 has reached a mass where it will implode. It cannot carry on like this and until the FIA is radically altered to become a fair and impartial body, it will get worse.

The FIA has no credability and that is where we need to start.

But does the general public know this, or care? And do the sponsors care? They don't seem to yet.

[tinchote]

I don't agree with the majority. While I don't discuss the fact that there is a lot of corruption in F1, it's not obvious at all to me that it is worse than in other sports. Only a year ago we had arranged matches in Italian football. The Tour de France has been plagued by massive doping, and athetism as well. In these same forums lots of people were complaining about Bond's record because of the fact that baseball authorities don't try to stop the use of steroids. And the list goes on and on.

Does anyone really think that there is a completely clean professional sport?

[BDunnell]

I don't agree with the majority. Why I don't discuss the fact that there is a lot of corruption in F1, it's not obvious at all to me that it is worse than in other sports. Only a year ago we had arranged matches in Italian football. The Tour de France has been plagued by massive doping, and athetism as well. In these same forums lots of people were complaining about Bond's record because of the fact that baseball authorities don't try to stop the use of steroids. And the list goes on and on.

Does anyone really think that there is a completely clean professional sport?

I agree with you. Much of the corruption ('the FIA always favoured Schumacher', 'the FIA is engineering Hamilton's championship') seems to be in people's heads, anyway, without evidence or foundation.

[markabilly]

I agree with you. Much of the corruption ('the FIA always favoured Schumacher', 'the FIA is engineering Hamilton's championship') seems to be in people's heads, anyway, without evidence or foundation.
You need to go read The Prince---or watch the The Godfather if you don't want to read such difficult material ---- "never let others know outside the family what you are thinking" :D

[ioan]

I don't agree with the majority. While I don't discuss the fact that there is a lot of corruption in F1, it's not obvious at all to me that it is worse than in other sports. Only a year ago we had arranged matches in Italian football. The Tour de France has been plagued by massive doping, and athetism as well. In these same forums lots of people were complaining about Bond's record because of the fact that baseball authorities don't try to stop the use of steroids. And the list goes on and on.

Does anyone really think that there is a completely clean professional sport?

You're absolutely right. Where there's money incentive there will be corruption, always.

Why is there in fact a money incentive for the winner of the WCC?
Do they run more races a year than the last classified team? No they don't. All they do is spend even more money for a few tenths of a second.

I wonder if they would spend as much money as they do ( Toyota, McLaren and Ferrari are reported in excess of $ 400 millions ) if there was only the title in line and not the differentiated TV rights incentives?

And most of the blame for this situation is on Bernie's shoulders. He saw a chance to earn lots of money, only that he needed to convince the teams that it's not only for him, and in the end we got where we are now, teams do whatever for those + millions.

[Ian McC]

When I saw the title of the thread I assumed it was referring to this forum!

Seriously, seems like for us fans it's if you don't like it then it's tough!

Problem is, this year has been a great one on the track, how many of the viewing public are going to care what's going on off the track?

[Tazio]

:dozey: Coruption is rampaging thoughout Formula One... From the Top (ie. Bernie & Max) on down to mid-level management amongst the teams.

IMO...The FIA needs to "clean house" and bring in new management...

if there's to be any chance to re-establish respect and ethical rules enforcement.


:s mokin:
Yes this is starting to get to the meat of the matter!
There needs to be a strong, unbiased, honest, and incorruptible, Commission, or Commissioner. Other words, a pipe dream! LOL

[trumperZ06]

Yes this is starting to get to the meat of the matter!
There needs to be a strong, unbiased, honest, and incorruptible, Commission, or Commissioner. Other words, a pipe dream! LOL

;) Well... a few people are now beginning to admit that there is a... PROBLEM !!!

:D Hhmmm... at least some other sports ( look @ the NFL ) are making an effort to clean up their house...

unlike Maxie & the FIA !!! :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

Does anyone really think that there is a completely clean professional sport?

Tiddlywinks? ;)

[wmcot]

I've always viewed the politics and corruption as PART of F1! Look at the topics of this forum - most of us are talking politics, not racing. Perhaps the only "pure" form of (semi) professional racing takes place on small local ovals or dirt tracks...

Perhaps going to a one make series with revenues more evenly distributed, that would reduce "cheating" for the most part. Then again, we might as well just change the name of IRL or Champ Car to Formula One!

[kalasend]

For me there's a simple cure: just reward whistle blowers with enough $weet so that they are not afraid of losing their jobs. I've always thought this is the cleanest and most efficient way of law and rule enforcement.

[schmenke]

I've always viewed the politics and corruption as PART of F1! ...

... To the detriment of the sport.

I would like to see a season void of scandal or allegations of cheating, where the championship was contested on the track, without unqualified stewards imposing inane penalties for driver A trying to overtake driver B... :mark:

[SGWilko]

I would like to see a season void of scandal

Don't hold your breath would be my advice.........

[Mintexmemory]

Not been a sport since the 'product' became the property of one man!
You older fans will remember how we used to moan about Balestre, come back Jean-Marie all is (nearly) forgiven. For one moment last year it looked like we might return to independent circuits putting up Grands Prix that manufacturers might choose to attend or not. Think a British GP with sensible admission costs. :) (though not back at a circuit that is spectator friendly)
So long as the viewing figures continue to rise (2,000,000 flies can't be wrong) then the purist bleats on this, or any other forum, are just so much froth and bubble. Just wish it was 68 again.

[Hazell B]

Does anyone really think that there is a completely clean professional sport?

I sure as hell don't, though some are far worse than others.

Some, like F1, don't really rip off the public with their 'mistakes', while others, such as football and horse racing, take millions of people for a ride every week when they have a bet. Those sports get away with it, so F1 will too.

The dirtiest sport of all in my experince is show jumping. The competitors at even the very top level get away with using drugs, ringers, dodgy cash, dodgy passports (on the horses, not themselves :p : ) and all manner of underhand practices. As nobody really bets on it, so nobody really loses much, it just happens. The governing bodies the world over will turn a blind eye, or fail to get evidence, even though competitors have been seriously injured at times (including a member of our own Olympic team, who fell off a horse and smashed his skull in when too drunk to negotiate a fence on live TV!)

F1 just looks silly at the moment, not bent beyond saving.

[markabilly]

Not been a sport since the 'product' became the property of one man!
You older fans will remember how we used to moan about Balestre, come back Jean-Marie all is (nearly) forgiven. For one moment last year it looked like we might return to independent circuits putting up Grands Prix that manufacturers might choose to attend or not. Think a British GP with sensible admission costs. :) (though not back at a circuit that is spectator friendly)
So long as the viewing figures continue to rise (2,000,000 flies can't be wrong) then the purist bleats on this, or any other forum, are just so much froth and bubble. Just wish it was 68 again.
A very good year, but I always felt 67 was a bit better---- back when drivers were men, and not some silly overpaid boys with toys playing bumper cars........my problem with 68 was too many good drivers left us...... :(

[BDunnell]

You need to go read The Prince---or watch the The Godfather if you don't want to read such difficult material ---- "never let others know outside the family what you are thinking" :D

I have no idea what you mean by that, I'm afraid.

[BDunnell]

Some, like F1, don't really rip off the public with their 'mistakes', while others, such as football and horse racing, take millions of people for a ride every week when they have a bet. Those sports get away with it, so F1 will too.

I would be interested to hear more about the allegation you make in relation to football.