Should Ferrari be banned ...

[seppefan]

From grandprix.com


In recent days we have received (unsolicited) communication from Nigel Stepney which raises a number of questions which have not been touched on in the scandal to date. Stepney says that he believes Ferrari have been let off surprisingly lightly by the FIA. He says that there is a point that everyone is missing because they are assuming that the flow of information to Mike Coughlan was a one-way flow and that Ferrari did not gain anything. There is no evidence at all that Stepney was being paid to pass on information and he says that it was rather more simple than that.
"I got information about when they [McLaren] were stopping," Stepney says. "I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car from him [Coughlan]. Ferrari got off very lightly. I was their employee at the time. I was aware of certain stuff they were doing at tests, fuel levels, for example. I knew what fuel level they were running. I think they should have been docked points personally. The question is: Did I use the information, did I talk about it?' That's the big question. I spoke to some people about it. I can't prove it, there are no e-mails or anything. Points about the fuel and the differences [between Ferrari and McLaren] were discussed inside. As well as McLaren having an advantage, did Ferrari have an advantage? I think so."
So is Stepney surprised that Ferrari got off entirely without penalty?
"Very surprised," he says. "It looks like information flowing only one way. No one has been balancing the argument. No one has asked the question. They were thinking Mike was asking the questions and I was answering them."
Stepney, one can argue, is a source that is seen to be somewhat tainted given all the allegations that have been made in Italy. But they are only allegations at the moment. Nothing has been proved in a proper court of law and until it is he has as much right to make his feelings known as Montezemolo.

[SGWilko]

From grandprix.com


In recent days we have received (unsolicited) communication from Nigel Stepney which raises a number of questions which have not been touched on in the scandal to date. Stepney says that he believes Ferrari have been let off surprisingly lightly by the FIA. He says that there is a point that everyone is missing because they are assuming that the flow of information to Mike Coughlan was a one-way flow and that Ferrari did not gain anything. There is no evidence at all that Stepney was being paid to pass on information and he says that it was rather more simple than that.
"I got information about when they [McLaren] were stopping," Stepney says. "I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car from him [Coughlan]. Ferrari got off very lightly. I was their employee at the time. I was aware of certain stuff they were doing at tests, fuel levels, for example. I knew what fuel level they were running. I think they should have been docked points personally. The question is: Did I use the information, did I talk about it?' That's the big question. I spoke to some people about it. I can't prove it, there are no e-mails or anything. Points about the fuel and the differences [between Ferrari and McLaren] were discussed inside. As well as McLaren having an advantage, did Ferrari have an advantage? I think so."
So is Stepney surprised that Ferrari got off entirely without penalty?
"Very surprised," he says. "It looks like information flowing only one way. No one has been balancing the argument. No one has asked the question. They were thinking Mike was asking the questions and I was answering them."
Stepney, one can argue, is a source that is seen to be somewhat tainted given all the allegations that have been made in Italy. But they are only allegations at the moment. Nothing has been proved in a proper court of law and until it is he has as much right to make his feelings known as Montezemolo.

IF you can prove without a doubt that they are just as indictable as the FIA think McLaren are, then, absolutely yes. As much as it grates on me though, I think enough damage has been done to the 'sport' of F1, and I think an agreement should be made to lift the carpet at the FIA headquarters, and sweep this whole sorry saga under it, and stop it all right now. ;(

[ioan]

Yep, take their points away and fine them a $ 100 millions if they are proved to have done the same as McLaren did.

F1 needs a huge blow to clean itself. Don't you worry, it will survive, become a sport again and maybe they won't do the same mistakes again.

[BDunnell]

F1 needs a huge blow to clean itself. Don't you worry, it will survive, become a sport again and maybe they won't do the same mistakes again.

I think what's happened has served as a huge wake-up call, but transfers of information in one way or another will always go on, if not in the form of that from Ferrari to McLaren (and maybe the other way).

[ioan]

I think what's happened has served as a huge wake-up call, but transfers of information in one way or another will always go on, if not in the form of that from Ferrari to McLaren (and maybe the other way).

Information is exchanged when engineers change teams, but when the info changes hand without employee transfer it is illegal because the information leak goes on for as long as it isn't found out and the infos are always up to date, which isn't the case when we talk about employees leaving to work for another team.

[Flat.tyres]

Information is exchanged when engineers change teams, but when the info changes hand without employee transfer it is illegal because the information leak goes on for as long as it isn't found out and the infos are always up to date, which isn't the case when we talk about employees leaving to work for another team.

I'd agree with that as long as we are talking about information in their heads and not on CD's. Unfortunatly, the reality is rather different.

Every team on the grid has been guilty to some extent of what McLaren were done for. OK, a 700 page manual is pretty comprehensive but what about a set of aero schematics or an engine blueprint instead. Whenever anyone moves to a competitor, they usually stuff what they can down their pants.

I believe NS in this case because it is not only plausible but logical that they were sharing data. We all know in our heart of hearts that it goes on but Max had an axe to grind and grind it he did.

I think it's time to put a line underneath this thing for the good of the sport. I'm not happy that McLaren were dealt with this way but I see no benefit whatsoever in exposing Ferrari and Renault in the same manner. It was a bitter pill that has been swallowed and for the good of F1, I hope it ends there and no other team is dragged through the mire.

[Hondo]

If a basis for credibility is found, I think McLaren should have their points restored and the fine lifted. Then McLaren and Ferrari could both be fined, say $5 million each and have all the teams admonished that this sort of thing will stop, now.

Possibly Stepney himself told Coughlan that the sliding floor was designed to pass the static test that the FIA was using at the time but if the FIA knew how it really worked, they would ban it. You could argue that Ferrari intentionally used an illegal device, like Toyota's rally air intake.

However, since it did pass the FIA tests at the time, it is wrong to say it was illegal or cheating on the part of Ferrari.

If any of this is true, then Ferrari should be held to account.

However, since it comes from a bloke who states he has no evidence, who has already been sacked by the Scuderia and accused of sabotage and handing classified information to a main rival, which has been confirmed by that rival organisation, the chances of him being a credible witness are somewhat remote.

Nigel Stepney is the most dishonest, unreliable witness a prosecution could get.

[SGWilko]

Nigel Stepney is the most dishonest, unreliable witness a prosecution could get.

He should become a lawyer then!! :D

[ioan]

If a basis for credibility is found, I think McLaren should have their points restored and the fine lifted. Then McLaren and Ferrari could both be fined, say $5 million each and have all the teams admonished that this sort of thing will stop, now.

If it is proved that Ferrari used McLaren data to the same extent as McLaren did with the Ferrari data than Ferrari should also lose their points and get the hefty fine.
5 millions is no where a hard enough fine to stop them cheating for the win when money they receive for winning is way more than that.

[Flat.tyres]

If we carry on down this route, there is a good chance that Lewis will be WDC in his first year and Spyker the WCC in theirs :laugh:

[markabilly]

If any of this is true, then Ferrari should be held to account.

However, since it comes from a bloke who states he has no evidence, who has already been sacked by the Scuderia and accused of sabotage and handing classified information to a main rival, which has been confirmed by that rival organisation, the chances of him being a credible witness are somewhat remote.

Nigel Stepney is the most dishonest, unreliable witness a prosecution could get.


Probably an understatement of his credibility at this stage


However, there is the question as to any verfiable email traffic and the content of the messages, that could be independantly demonstrated to have this type of information flow such as the FA emails where the content was actually available

the article seems to suggest that there is not, but that is not clear and seems based on NS statements in the article, that there is not.......

[markabilly]

If we carry on down this route, there is a good chance that Lewis will be WDC in his first year and Spyker the WCC in theirs :laugh:


And just how is it that you are so sure about Spyker being the last survivor?

just how is it that they got to be so fast with Sutil scoring that point??

Just what was in those cds or laptops of a certain person when he left a certain team and went to head up Spyker's......

Question is what will FIA do with all that money that will be lifted from the entire grid of teams.... :D

[SGWilko]

And just how is it that you are so sure about Spyker being the last survivor?

just how is it that they got to be so fast with Sutil scoring that point??

Just what was in those cds or laptops of a certain person when he left a certain team and went to head up Spyker's......

Question is what will FIA do with all that money that will be lifted from the entire grid of teams.... :D

Well, I can't see how Toyota would have the gaul to kick up a fuss if the Spyker had elements of their car in it, I mean, Toyota had no intention of using it to good effect, did they? ;)

[Flat.tyres]

Well, I can't see how Toyota would have the gaul to kick up a fuss if the Spyker had elements of their car in it, I mean, Toyota had no intention of using it to good effect, did they? ;)

PML :laugh: So, will Alonso move to Spyker now ;)

Marks post does sum up quite nicely the problem with intellectual property transference.

Does anyone really believe the Spyker was constructed from scratch without a set of spare blueprints floating around.

http://www.toyota-f1.com/public/images/news/070112_tf107/l_09.jpg
http://spykerf1imagebank.com/imagebank/flex/clean/show/spyker/commercial/00.%20Spyker%20B-spec%20car%20/PJF12100.jpg?mode=list
http://www.spykerf1.net/1170675841-thumb.jpg

[Bagwan]

If it is proved that Ferrari used McLaren data to the same extent as McLaren did with the Ferrari data than Ferrari should also lose their points and get the hefty fine.
5 millions is no where a hard enough fine to stop them cheating for the win when money they receive for winning is way more than that.

No .
If it's true , and as damning a dossier of evidence , they should be thrown out , along with McLaren .
Fines do nothing . Chuck both and send a real message .

Let them come back next year , and forget about the stupid suggestion that either be checked for the other's intellectual property or parts .

But , let's find out if this isn't just an accused thief throwing red herrings at us .
Let's see those e-mails and text messages , too . We know how fond these guys are of electronic communication .

[trumperZ06]

If it is proved that Ferrari used McLaren data to the same extent as McLaren did with the Ferrari data than Ferrari should also lose their points and get the hefty fine.
5 millions is no where a hard enough fine to stop them cheating for the win when money they receive for winning is way more than that.

;) Good post... there's always been more than one team's employees involved in this scandal !!!

:dozey: Although I am not surprised... if no money changed hands...

then a Quid Quo Pro is likely !!!

:s mokin:

PML :laugh: So, will Alonso move to Spyker now ;)

Marks post does sum up quite nicely the problem with intellectual property transference.

Does anyone really believe the Spyker was constructed from scratch without a set of spare blueprints floating around.

http://www.toyota-f1.com/public/images/news/070112_tf107/l_09.jpg
http://spykerf1imagebank.com/imagebank/flex/clean/show/spyker/commercial/00.%20Spyker%20B-spec%20car%20/PJF12100.jpg?mode=list
http://www.spykerf1.net/1170675841-thumb.jpg

As a friend of the family of the designer of those cars, have you any evidence to back up that slanderous and libellious question?

[Roamy]

gee then who is the real champion??????

[SGWilko]

As a friend of the family of the designer of those cars, have you any evidence to back up that slanderous and libellious question?

Easy Tiger, I took that as a very tongue in cheek post.

I would venture to suggest that Mike will ahve a lot of ideas vested in the Spyker that he was not given the chance to use at Toyota, due to the levels of authority you have to traverse just to get approval......

[markabilly]

PML :laugh: So, will Alonso move to Spyker now ;)


http://www.toyota-f1.com/public/images/news/070112_tf107/l_09.jpg
http://spykerf1imagebank.com/imagebank/flex/clean/show/spyker/commercial/00.%20Spyker%20B-spec%20car%20/PJF12100.jpg?mode=list
http://www.spykerf1.net/1170675841-thumb.jpg


As a friend of the family of the designer of those cars, have you any evidence to back up that slanderous and libellious question?

Yes tamburello has a point!!!!--How can you dare say such slanderous things???Your photographic evidence clearly demonstrates the colors on the two cars are completely different.

[Flat.tyres]

As a friend of the family of the designer of those cars, have you any evidence to back up that slanderous and libellious question?

My word, you really are a card :laugh:

You go floating around labeling people racists on here and then have the cheek to call someone else slanderous.

For your information, I didn't say that he did. I asked a question whether anyone seriously believed he didn't. That is not an accusation, it is a question. However, if it makes it any easier for you then my opinion is that more went into the design of the Spyker from Mike than what he carried in his head.

Will you please grow up and stop flying off the handle.

[Flat.tyres]

Yes tamburello has a point!!!!--How can you dare say such slanderous things???Your photographic evidence clearly demonstrates the colors on the two cars are completely different.

PML :laugh:

[SGWilko]

PML :laugh:

Do you need clean undies yet!!! :rotflmao:

However, if it makes it any easier for you then my opinion is that more went into the design of the Spyker from Mike than what he carried in his head.

Will you please grow up and stop flying off the handle.

So you're happy to say that Mike Gascoyne is a cheat who steals from his former employees.

You are a disgrace and you need to grow up.

[SGWilko]

So you're happy to say that Mike Gascoyne is a cheat who steals from his former employees.

You are a disgrace and you need to grow up.

Woah. Hold it. There was absolutely no mention of Mike being a cheat, and certainly not the slightest suggestion he has stolen anything from his colleagues. Whatever ideas Mike comes up with are his, right? So, he is entitled to take them with him right. If I have an idea, air head that I am I write them down, they belong to no-one but Mike.

Honest to God, no one is implicating Mike.....

[Hondo]

You know, as more teams use wind tunnels and computers to design their cars, sooner or later it's going to end up being a nearly identical car. Airfow doesn't lie.

Honest to God, no one is implicating Mike.....


However, if it makes it any easier for you then my opinion is that more went into the design of the Spyker from Mike than what he carried in his head.

Yes they are.

[Flat.tyres]

So you're happy to say that Mike Gascoyne is a cheat who steals from his former employees.

You are a disgrace and you need to grow up.

Hey no problem big guy. I'm happy to say that everyone has privilidged information whether in their heads or not that they take with them. So, sue me.

Mike is no different to anyone else in F1. If you think that everything he learned and the database he built while at Toyota was wiped when he joined Spyker then you are very naive.

[SGWilko]

You know, as more teams use wind tunnels and computers to design their cars, sooner or later it's going to end up being a nearly identical car. Airfow doesn't lie.


Indeed, as more components are standardised that will become more so the case. The subtle differences being borne of the need to package engines/cooling etc in different ways for the different geometries.

[SGWilko]

My word, you really are a card :laugh:

You go floating around labeling people racists on here and then have the cheek to call someone else slanderous.

For your information, I didn't say that he did. I asked a question whether anyone seriously believed he didn't. That is not an accusation, it is a question. However, if it makes it any easier for you then my opinion is that more went into the design of the Spyker from Mike than what he carried in his head.

Will you please grow up and stop flying off the handle.

I've highlighted the key word. That is not a statement of fact, but one of personal opinion, surely?

Hey no problem big guy. I'm happy to say that everyone has privilidged information whether in their heads or not that they take with them. So, sue me.

Mike is no different to anyone else in F1. If you think that everything he learned and the database he built while at Toyota was wiped when he joined Spyker then you are very naive.

You specifically implied that he took info that was not in his head. You implied he is corrupt.

Call me niave, but I'd rather be called that than someone who mud-slings and spreads lies without any facts or evidence.

Those people I'd happily call a ****ing scumbag who should have the living **** beaten out of them.

Does anyone really believe the Spyker was constructed from scratch without a set of spare blueprints floating around.

A set of spare blueprints is not the same as having info from knowledge and experience in a previous job.

I'd have thought a Mclaren fan would have learnt that by now.

Mud-slinging is pathetic.

[Flat.tyres]

You specifically implied that he took info that was not in his head. You implied he is corrupt.

Call me niave, but I'd rather be called that than someone who mud-slings and spreads lies without any facts or evidence.

Those people I'd happily call a ****ing scumbag who should have the living **** beaten out of them.

:rolleyes:

Unfortunatly, this is the sort of post I've become used to from you.

I don't really care what you call me but I will warn you that the powers that be take great exception to this sort of personal attack.

But, I would say you are a bit of a clown and although it was humourous to begin with, you are becoming quite boring with these sorts of posts. Kindly go and play silly games with someone as purile as yourself as i find it quite tediuous.

[markabilly]

You specifically implied that he took info that was not in his head. You implied he is corrupt.

Call me niave, but I'd rather be called that than someone who mud-slings and spreads lies without any facts or evidence.

Those people I'd happily call a ****ing scumbag who should have the living **** beaten out of them.


So what?

I do not seem to recall him threatening folks with violence or cursing or lawsuits

It is all entertainment, and recent events should make that clear beyond dispute, except for those too full of "the living**** " to know any better

And get real, as in the real world, 'cuase my money says Mike (like most high tech people I been around all my life) does have a little black book, cd, manual, laptop or whatever of his little secrets to speed, set up and design that he has acquired over the years that he keeps somewhere, maybe even under his pillow at night (or even gasp, my oh my, a spare set of blueprints somewhere of his better work :eek: :rolleyes: )

[ioan]

I thought this thread is about how Ferrari should be banned following these "last moment revelations" from Nigel Stepney that are made public by http://www.grandprix.com who's editor couldn't refrain from completing Nigel's empty threats with some precious (read biased) [indications].

I take a look and what do I find? A playground! We got to the point where McLaren fans are accusing Spyker that they did what the McCheats were doing this season. All this without the slightest proof (because ones thoughts and dreams are rarely facts)! :rolleyes:

[janneppi]

I thought this thread is about how Ferrari should be banned following these "last moment revelations" from Nigel Stepney that are made public by http://www.grandprix.com who's editor couldn't refrain from completing Nigel's empty threats with some precious (read biased) [indications].

:up:

This thread is about Stepneys comments, not about Spyker or it's designer. Keep it that way.

[ioan]

Wow, nice and clean! :D

[trumperZ06]

;) Hey Ioan,

Stepney's confession... that he accepted McLaren's technical information and shared it with his fellow workers while still employed with Ferrari...

Simply tosses Ferrari into the same mud wrestling pit as McLaren by...

Bringing the sport into "Disrepute" !!!

:dozey: Now... what's Mad Max and Bernie gonna do with an Extra 100 Million ???

:s mokin:

[Narr]

If the FIA had proven that the data had been used on the McLaren car then this wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately what the FIA have proven is that McLaren tested some of the information they obtained; an act (as admitted by several people is quite common) which every team on the grid is guilty of.

[markabilly]

.................Unfortunately what the FIA have proven is that McLaren tested some of the information they obtained; an act (as admitted by several people is quite common) which every team on the grid is guilty of.

Opps!!! :mad: Off topic!!

Moderator only wants talk on ferrari--when I and flat tryes speculated on who would be left after such a proper investigaton of everyone, (as you rightfully point out as well), as in not even Spyker might survive, , those posts were "deleted" ..................................although they were far more interesting than what was left
:D

[markabilly]

gee then who is the real champion??????



no one

[fandango]

Apart from whether it's true or not, and apart from Stepney's credibility stakes, it's amazing that nobody asked the simple question of if McLaren information went to Ferrari. Wouldn't it have been simply logical for the FIA to have also asked Massa, Raikkonen and Gené for the same input as the McLaren drivers?

[SGWilko]

Apart from whether it's true or not, and apart from Stepney's credibility stakes, it's amazing that nobody asked the simple question of if McLaren information went to Ferrari. Wouldn't it have been simply logical for the FIA to have also asked Massa, Raikkonen and Gené for the same input as the McLaren drivers?

I can't imagine that question was not asked.....

[Flat.tyres]

Opps!!! :mad: Off topic!!

Moderator only wants talk on ferrari--when I and flat tryes speculated on who would be left after such a proper investigaton of everyone, (as you rightfully point out as well), as in not even Spyker might survive, , those posts were "deleted" ..................................although they were far more interesting than what was left
:D

Hey, I even managed to pick up a warning for suggesting someone didn't call me a f****** ****** ***** or something like as the Mods don't like it :laugh: I nearly spurted Pinot Noir out of my nostrails with laughter over that. They still sting now :laugh:

Some people cannot accept the point that "creative hoarding" goes on in every industry and every sport. However, as I have previously said, I accept that McLaren have been made the scapegoats because of Max's ego but I hope this doesn't have ramifications for other teams otherwise the sport will collapse. Even after what Ferrari have done in galvanising this war, I hope that any data trail is quietly erased for the good of the sport. I suspect it will be.

[wmcot]

I can't imagine that question was not asked.....

I would assume that if there was the least bit of credible evidence, McLaren would have been quick to bring it up. Ron Dennis isn't stupid!

[SGWilko]

Hey, I even managed to pick up a warning for suggesting someone didn't call me a f****** ****** ***** or something like as the Mods don't like it :laugh: I nearly spurted Pinot Noir out of my nostrails with laughter over that. They still sting now :laugh:

Some people cannot accept the point that "creative hoarding" goes on in every industry and every sport. However, as I have previously said, I accept that McLaren have been made the scapegoats because of Max's ego but I hope this doesn't have ramifications for other teams otherwise the sport will collapse. Even after what Ferrari have done in galvanising this war, I hope that any data trail is quietly erased for the good of the sport. I suspect it will be.

IF Ferrari have received info from MC and they set about deleting any electronic data trail, I hope they bring in an external firm, because I don't rate their resident IT Dept very highly.....

NB - Note careful use of the word if...... :D

[Flat.tyres]

IF Ferrari have received info from MC and they set about deleting any electronic data trail, I hope they bring in an external firm, because I don't rate their resident IT Dept very highly.....

NB - Note careful use of the word if...... :D

Tried it with TC remember.

Ask Fousto, he loves repeating the story :D

[SGWilko]

Tried it with TC remember.

Ask Fousto, he loves repeating the story :D

I assume this the 'hidden' software in the Benneton car in 94/95? The software that whilst not used, was just there, just in case like......

Yeah yeah. And who were the main players in that team at the time, apart from TW, it was FB RB RB wasn't it?

Flav is still there, but the others went somewhere else didn't they.

Mind you, don't they all get the standard ECU next year? That's going to be fun. I bet my hat that doesn't happen in the end, I mean, how can it?

[Hondo]

Ferrari won't have any e-mails from Coughlan, the mechanics or the drivers because they don't receive e-mails.

[Flat.tyres]

Ferrari won't have any e-mails from Coughlan, the mechanics or the drivers because they don't receive e-mails.

Oh bugger, there goes another nostril full over the keypad. Remind me not to drink and read at the same time. My keys are getting rather sticky and I haven't been anywhere apart from here. honest :D

[markabilly]

I assume this the 'hidden' software in the Benneton car in 94/95? The software that whilst not used, was just there, just in case like......

Yeah yeah. And who were the main players in that team at the time, apart from TW, it was FB RB RB wasn't it?

Flav is still there, but the others went somewhere else didn't they.

Mind you, don't they all get the standard ECU next year? That's going to be fun. I bet my hat that doesn't happen in the end, I mean, how can it?
You mean the standard one manufactured by Mercedes???

[trumperZ06]

I would assume that if there was the least bit of credible evidence, McLaren would have been quick to bring it up. Ron Dennis isn't stupid!


;) Hhmmm... as I recall...

Maxie made it very clear that at the hearing,

the ONLY ISSUE to be discussed was McLaren's !!!

:D With the latest article about Stepney receiving information back from McLaren and sharing it with other Ferrari employees... while Stepney was still employed by Ferrari...

added to Max's warning/threat to McLaren...

regarding punishing Alonso's attempt at Blackmail...

Mad Max's actions are certainly open to question !!!

I wonder WHEN we will see an investigation opened in a Court of Law !!!

:s mokin:

[Hawkmoon]

Ferrari won't have any e-mails from Coughlan, the mechanics or the drivers because they don't receive e-mails.

:laugh: Good one! :up:

The problem Stepney has is that he has little credibility. He claimed that he never sent the 780 page document to Coughlan, yet Coughlan gave a sworn affadvit in a court of law that he most certainly did.

I get the feeling that Stepney is trying to make Ferrari back-off the legal action with these claims. If he's not lying, then congratulations BMW Sauber on your first WCC.

[Roamy]

well ferrari is ****ed because they let TAD go to Renault where they will be a shoe in next year. You can have all the ecu's you want but TAD can crack them all.

[wmcot]

:laugh: Good one! :up:

The problem Stepney has is that he has little credibility. He claimed that he never sent the 780 page document to Coughlan, yet Coughlan gave a sworn affadvit in a court of law that he most certainly did.

I get the feeling that Stepney is trying to make Ferrari back-off the legal action with these claims. If he's not lying, then congratulations BMW Sauber on your first WCC.

Can't wait for Stepney's book published from prison! There should be a lot of "truths" contained in it! ;)

[truefan72]

;) Hhmmm... as I recall...

Maxie made it very clear that at the hearing,

the ONLY ISSUE to be discussed was McLaren's !!!

:D With the latest article about Stepney receiving information back from McLaren and sharing it with other Ferrari employees... while Stepney was still employed by Ferrari...

added to Max's warning/threat to McLaren...

regarding punishing Alonso's attempt at Blackmail...

Mad Max's actions are certainly open to question !!!

I wonder WHEN we will see an investigation opened in a Court of Law !!!

:s mokin:

I was just about to say that :up:

[wmcot]

;) Hhmmm... as I recall...

Maxie made it very clear that at the hearing,

the ONLY ISSUE to be discussed was McLaren's !!!



So you believe that Dennis and his representatives just sat there with a pocket-load of information on Ferrari and were just too darn polite to mention any of it in a public forum?

Yeah, that's really believable!! :)

[rohanweb]

And now.. Nigel stepney claims Ferrari also got information about Mclaren cars weight distribution,how many stops they going to make,technical details of mclaren car parts etc..

it seems naturaly all the teams are curious to know and tend to copy some information from fellow faster cars ( I remember even when MS parks his ferrari car by the other cars he always bends,looks,looks &looks of the other cars inside out for details ..comon it has happened at many instances 2006 season ;) )) ( someone tell me i am wrong).. and the way FIA handled this Ferrari complaints ( well.. yeh ???? ) , ferrari's also seems guilty of bringing the sport in to disrepute as when they lose its business as usual for them to bringing in such 'stories of complaints' ...i have lost respect for Montzemello and Todt ..2 very miserable chaps running the ferrari!

weather Mclarens used thier data's to make thier car faster.. still the copycat cars goes faster ..unbelievable.
I hope LH wins this years chanmpionship and carry on winning streak of championships for the next 10 years also to teach lessons to ferrari's such attitude!

[rohanweb]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7027318.stm

[ioan]

Stepney should stop digging his own hole. :rolleyes:
His a certified thief and liar, and the only people who take him seriously are sour losers from the McLaren camp and their fans, because it gives them a chance to badmouth Ferrari, again!

[ArrowsFA1]

Stepney should stop digging his own hole. :rolleyes:
His a certified thief and liar, and the only people who take him seriously are sour losers from the McLaren camp and their fans, because it gives them a chance to badmouth Ferrari, again!
Ahhh, I see what you've done there ioan. Mosley calls Stewart a "certified halfwit" and you call Stepney a "certified thief and liar" :laugh: :s mokin:

If the FIA do as they should do, and as they did with McLaren, they will examine the accusations made by Stepney. If they are groundless then Ferrari and their fans have nothing to worry about. If not then they should be very afraid of the consequences.

[SGWilko]

Stepney should stop digging his own hole. :rolleyes:
His a certified thief and liar

Nice people you enploy then, if that is what your saying. Or is this what happens to a man threatened with his and his families wife by a corrupt F1 team, no doubt run with influence from, dare I say it, the family? ;)


and the only people who take him seriously are sour losers from the McLaren camp and their fans

Careful, I could throw my toys out of the pram and suggest that is a personal comment and the 'R' word...... :D


because it gives them a chance to badmouth Ferrari, again!

Well, I think Ferrari themselves give us the ammo for that, week in week out, as reliable as 'old faithful'.... :p :

[SGWilko]

You mean the standard one manufactured by Mercedes???

I hear Fiat tried making one, but it kept rusting!!!!! ;)

[ioan]

Ahhh, I see what you've done there ioan. Mosley calls Stewart a "certified halfwit" and you call Stepney a "certified thief and liar" :laugh: :s mokin:

I knew someone will pick it up! :D


If the FIA do as they should do, and as they did with McLaren, they will examine the accusations made by Stepney. If they are groundless then Ferrari and their fans have nothing to worry about. If not then they should be very afraid of the consequences.

Exactly what I was saying in several of my posts! If there is as much proof as in the McLaren case than toast them.

[ioan]

Nice people you enploy then, if that is what your saying. Or is this what happens to a man threatened with his and his families wife by a corrupt F1 team, no doubt run with influence from, dare I say it, the family? ;)

I suppose you mean "life" not "wife"! ;)
And BTW they are all well and untouched 4 month after those comments!



Well, I think Ferrari themselves give us the ammo for that, week in week out, as reliable as 'old faithful'.... :p :

Stepney is not working for Ferrari. He's rather helping Mclaren! :p :

[SGWilko]

I suppose you mean "life" not "wife"! ;)


Yes, sorry, it's this Acer laptop. You know, the one has the prancing horse on it!!!

Seriously, my spelling is just pants at the moment - no excuses. I jstu cnta slelp!!!! ;)

[ioan]

Yes, sorry, it's this Acer laptop. You know, the one has the prancing horse on it!!!

Seriously, my spelling is just pants at the moment - no excuses. I jstu cnta slelp!!!! ;)

You would need one hell of a keyboard there to type "W" instead of "L"!

[SGWilko]

You would need one hell of a keyboard there to type "W" instead of "L"!

Tell me about it!!
And my emails are always late too.
I've had to revert to putting everything down on paper, what am I supposed to do with this 800 odd pages of hard copy? ;)

[ioan]

Tell me about it!!
And my emails are always late too.
I've had to revert to putting everything down on paper, what am I supposed to do with this 800 odd pages of hard copy? ;)

Send it too M. Coughlan, he'll find a way to share it with others at McLaren. You should however never try to get it back because Ron will deny it's existence and you won't be able to prove it because they bought themselves a copier now!

[SGWilko]

Send it too M. Coughlan, he'll find a way to share it with others at McLaren. You should however never try to get it back because Ron will deny it's existence and you won't be able to prove it because they bought themselves a copier now!

:laugh:

[SGWilko]

Even journo's have differing opinions on the matter:-


In an age when radio, cellphone, fax and printed communications are all viable, at a venue in which all the team principals are gathered within the space of a couple of hundred yards, in a year in which F1 has already suffered one ruinous legal controversy, it beggars belief that the stewards saw fit to circulate a crucial directive by the single (and potentially unreliable) means of email.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20 vision. But electronic failures are not uncommon along the pitwall. Some months back, we witnessed the Renault team suddenly losing power to their laptops and other electronic gear. The potential for having that vital email go undelivered was both predictable and avoidable, by having some form of back-up communication. The FIA has now decided on printed document back-ups. At best, it's a decision that was taken a day too late.

If the Ferrari pair had been within a point or two of the championship lead, the ramifications of the late email delivery could have been catastrophic. Ironically, the stewards were spared yet more controversy by the very team they had disadvantaged. Although Ferrari have complained (justifiably) about the late email delivery, there is also the realisation that the gamble to start on intermediates would have backfired on them anyway, even if race control had allowed it.

and then


What came as a surprise was the ad hoc ruling that everyone should start on extreme wet tyres should the safety car be used.

This was an eminently sensible decision given that safety was an absolute priority for the FIA in the potentially treacherous conditions, but one that came couched in complex legalise as chief steward Tony Scott-Andrews sought to justify this unusual intervention.

That is presumably why it took so long for the decision to be signed off for circulation via the FIA email system used to send messages to teams. At the same time, hard copies were distributed in the media centre.


Fernando Alonso approaches the grid on intermediate tyres © XPB/LAT
I only found out that something was up while networking on the grid. I was intrigued to see that all four leading cars had done their reconnaissance laps on intermediates, and while the rain had eased, it seemed pretty obvious that they were not the tyres for the job.

I asked former Nippon champion and Fuji expert Pedro de la Rosa what was going on, and he told me that the McLaren drivers had just wanted to check the intermediates in the conditions. They weren't a factor for the start, he said, because everyone would have to use extremes.

Interestingly, Hamilton was the only top guy with experience of the extreme wet, having used it briefly at the start of Q1 - which is why he very nearly missed the cut as a change cost him time.

While I don't know the rule book by heart, this extreme tyre rule seemed to be a new one on me, but folk from a couple of other teams confirmed it to be so. On arrival back in the media centre just before the start I found the relevant communication, which seemed clear cut.

Since most of the paddock knew about the ruling by that stage, it seems amazing that Ferrari had somehow failed to learn of this late change, but we have to believe the team's assertion that they didn't find out until after the cars had left the grid and Charlie Whiting radioed and asked why both drivers were on intermediates.

It was a good question even without the rule change. While I was talking to de la Rosa, Maylander came up and asked if the Spaniard knew what the McLaren drivers thought of the conditions. Pedro checked and said that while there were some rivers, it was drivable - but only on extremes.

I understand the Ferrari drivers did not feel very comfortable on their reconnaissance laps with the intermediates. Interestingly they had actually come quite late to the grid, at a point when the rain had eased off a fraction, so they actually got a better impression than they might otherwise have done. Had they come out a little earlier they might have been adamant that inters were not the way to go.

Leaving aside the miscommunication on the rule amendment, Ferrari were trying to be clever and they screwed up, it's as simple as that. Famously in Malaysia 2001 the red cars started behind the safety car on inters, and lo and behold, when it was dry enough to release the field, those tyres were just coming into their own. Which meant the cars didn't have to pit like everyone else.

But at Fuji even behind the safety car, with pressures and temperature suffering, they were a real handful. Massa spun (and of course got a drive-through for regaining positions), and Kimi had a moment too. It wasn't just the FIA's insistence that brought them in on laps 2 and 3, the tyres were simply unusable in the conditions. The fact that everyone else stayed on extremes for the duration was pretty good evidence for that.

McLaren F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh certainly thought it an odd decision: "Honestly I don't think we would have done that, actually. But an instruction was issued at 12:37 pm that we thought made it fairly clear that we didn't have a choice.


Cars on the grid with extreme wets © LAT
"We received what we thought were relatively clear instructions that you needed to start the race on extreme wets, so to find that both the Ferraris were on standard wets was a bit disturbing for us!"

Added Ron Dennis: "We were surprise that they started on something other than the monsoon tyres, because effectively there was a communication that everybody had to start on those tyres. So it was very confusing to us."

Taking on fuel at that stop, and at another while the safety car was still running, made for a fascinating strategic conundrum. As the laps went by it became apparent that there was a scenario where one by one the leading cars would stop and drop down the order, and the Ferraris would creep to the front by virtue of having so much more fuel on board.

[Hondo]

Stepney is not working for Ferrari. He's rather helping Mclaren! :p :

Oh, I think Stepney has helped Ferrari a great deal this year. Stepney is the one man responsible for Ferrari taking the Constructor's Championship. Ferrari couldn't have done it without him.

Todt and Montezemolo ought to acknowledge him at the awards ceremony and give him a performance bonus.

[airshifter]

If the FIA do as they should do, and as they did with McLaren, they will examine the accusations made by Stepney. If they are groundless then Ferrari and their fans have nothing to worry about. If not then they should be very afraid of the consequences.

Agreed. I also think that they dropped the ball on the initial sharing of information, and should have at least attempted to find out if McLaren did in fact gain advantage from it. By doing so they would have either cleared or condemned the name of Hamilton, who at present will still be doubted by many if he takes the WDC.

And though I was hoping Kimi would take a title in the red car this year, I also feel that they used a double standard in ignoring the fact that a Ferrari employee was the root start of the entire scandal. Had no one improperly taken the information from Ferrari, nobody at McLaren could have used it.



Just like the Cold War days, often spies are double agents, working for both sides. :laugh:

[BDunnell]

Agreed. I also think that they dropped the ball on the initial sharing of information, and should have at least attempted to find out if McLaren did in fact gain advantage from it. By doing so they would have either cleared or condemned the name of Hamilton, who at present will still be doubted by many if he takes the WDC.

I couldn't agree more.



And though I was hoping Kimi would take a title in the red car this year, I also feel that they used a double standard in ignoring the fact that a Ferrari employee was the root start of the entire scandal. Had no one improperly taken the information from Ferrari, nobody at McLaren could have used it.

The number of unanswered questions relating to the start of what happened has certainly not decreased as this whole business has unfolded. The trouble is that a lot of people now just assume that Stepney is not to be trusted in any testimony, even though I don't see how what we know about the case brands him a dishonest witness. Suddenly coming out with the accusations about Ferrari now could easily be construed as a bit desperate, however.

[ioan]

Oh, I think Stepney has helped Ferrari a great deal this year. Stepney is the one man responsible for Ferrari taking the Constructor's Championship. Ferrari couldn't have done it without him.

The one who took McLaren down is RD. He wasn't able to do the right thing at the right time.

[555-04Q2]

Oh, I think Stepney has helped Ferrari a great deal this year. Stepney is the one man responsible for Ferrari taking the Constructor's Championship. Ferrari couldn't have done it without him.

Todt and Montezemolo ought to acknowledge him at the awards ceremony and give him a performance bonus.

Sad :( but true :p :

[Hondo]

The one who took McLaren down is RD. He wasn't able to do the right thing at the right time.

He did all the right things as he learned of them.

Or is this what happens to a man threatened with his and his families wife by a corrupt F1 team, no doubt run with influence from, dare I say it, the family? ;)

Corrupt F1 team?

Do you have a link?

[ioan]

He did all the right things as he learned of them.

That's what he says.
I fact I didn't even write this reply! :D

[ioan]

Corrupt F1 team?

Do you have a link?

You joking? They can't link to their wishes!

On the other hand if it comes out that Stepney was forced in this way by McLaren to give them all that info... :p :

[BDunnell]

That's what he says.

Let's turn this on its head. If the roles were reversed, and Jean Todt was in this position, I presume you would automatically believe him?

[trumperZ06]

:rolleyes: Stepney has more to say about Maxie & Ferrari...

and the situation keeps getting...

UGLYER & UGLYER !!!

;) See http://www.grandprix.com/nb/ns19721.html

Headline: "Stepney says Publisher pulled out because of Pressure"

Which provides additional info... now about Ferrari's flexible floor= mass damping system,

and His contacting Peter Wright back in Febuary, and then the flexible floor info going to Charlie Whiting.

All this before McLaren was advised... and followed up by going to the FIA asking for a ruling.

:p : There appears to be much more involved in the Stepneygate story... than Max wants us to know !!!

:s mokin:

[Hondo]

You joking? They can't link to their wishes!

On the other hand if it comes out that Stepney was forced in this way by McLaren to give them all that info... :p :

ioan, if it turns out that Stepney did any of this under any duress or any incentive reward that can be PROVEN to have come directly from Ron Dennis, I'll be the first one to hop up and down to have the FIA double the fine and toss McLaren out for 2008 also.

Thats fair.

[BDunnell]

ioan, if it turns out that Stepney did any of this under any duress or any incentive reward that can be PROVEN to have come directly from Ron Dennis, I'll be the first one to hop up and down to have the FIA double the fine and toss McLaren out for 2008 also.

Me too.

[Hondo]

For what it's worth, I don't believe Jon Todt would solicit or try to corrupt any current member of any team for confidential information either.

[BDunnell]

I can't think of any F1 team boss that I'd consider likely to.

[ioan]

ioan, if it turns out that Stepney did any of this under any duress or any incentive reward that can be PROVEN to have come directly from Ron Dennis, I'll be the first one to hop up and down to have the FIA double the fine and toss McLaren out for 2008 also.

Thats fair.

It was just a tongue in cheek reply to SGWilko's comment about a corrupt team threatening Stepney's and his family's life.

[jas123f1]

From grandprix.com

So is Stepney surprised that Ferrari got off entirely without penalty?
"Very surprised," he says. "It looks like information flowing only one way. No one has been balancing the argument. No one has asked the question. They were thinking Mike was asking the questions and I was answering them."
Stepney, one can argue, is a source that is seen to be somewhat tainted given all the allegations that have been made in Italy. But they are only allegations at the moment. Nothing has been proved in a proper court of law and until it is he has as much right to make his feelings known as Montezemolo.

I personally don't trust this man, for me are his words not worth a penny.
He gave McLaren 780 pages confidential Ferrari information and has denied it whole the time. He had a good carrier in Ferrari team but he wasn’t pleased with that and today he speaks against Ferrari that soon there is any who like to be listening. We will se what happens with him, when he will be in the court …

[Hondo]

That is an interesting letter, to be sure.

[ioan]

This part is interesting:



Mike looked at some of the documents and was obviously interested in them, I said I didn’t think it was a good idea that he should be looking at these papers. I was obviously wrong to even have let him have access to them. But he said that I could use these in the Catia course. Eventually he took a small amount of these documents and put them in his bag, I asked what was he going to do with them and he said don't worry nothing. We then got into the car because it was time to go to the airport, in the car he saw some other documents which he started to read, he then took them all and pushed them inside his back pack. I didn't think it was a good idea and said you can't do anything with them. He told me don't worry I won't use any of this stuff.


Coughlan said that Stepney wanted him to take the documents, Stepney says that Coughlan wanted to take the documents!

One or both are lying!

[BDunnell]

This part is interesting:



Coughlan said that Stepney wanted him to take the documents, Stepney says that Coughlan wanted to take the documents!

One or both are lying!

I do find it interesting that they never took the opportunity to straighten their stories out. Hardly a pair of hard-nosed criminals, are they?

[markabilly]

This part is interesting:



Coughlan said that Stepney wanted him to take the documents, Stepney says that Coughlan wanted to take the documents!

One or both are lying!


NO they were in agreement---he wanted me to give them and he wanted me to have them--sounds like consent :love:

but then maybe they just did not want to hurt each other feelings, being such sensitive fellows and all-hahahah :D