Luca Di Monte and Moseley

[SGWilko]

Oh dear, I've just read a couple of stories on Autosport......

LH championship would be tainted as there is so much Ferrari in the McLaren. Perhaps he ought to prove that one with hard evidence not all the usual likleyhood/suspicion rubbish they keep blurting on about.

And if there is Ferrari in the McLaren, how come Ferrari can't make their Ferrari as fast as McLaren's Ferrari?

Jeez, you Italians make fantastic cars, you have the most beautiful country, but sheesh, you sure don't know how to lose do you?

And then, the next story Luca starts banging on that he wants an apology from the Fuji stewards!!! Oh my God, he really has lost it. He stated if it were not for the email, all cars would have started on inters - EVEN THOUGH TODT SAID IN HINDSIGHT THEY WERE THE WRONG CHOICE.

Holy smoke, there really is no communication in that team is there?

Ferrari are hell bent on making themselves the butt of so many jokes now, you just cannot take them seriously. And that is so sad, because, way back when, they were reveered, as was the great Enzo. That poor man must be spinning at a rev limited 19,000RPM in his grave with the shame of it all. I really want to like Ferrari, but they are making it so very hard right now, I don't think I'll bother.

[ShiftingGears]

Someone needs to beat some sense into him. I mean he's understandably disappointed when things don't go his way, but thats not an excuse to make idiotic claims.

[Ian McC]

Seems to me too many people in F1 are finding a voice at the moment, between them all they are bringing F1 down.

[Bagwan]

If the red cars had started on full wets , it would have been a very different race . That cannot be denied .

Ferrari states that they didn't get the directive until after the race had started .

Ferrari's weather prediction obviously indicated that it would clear up , or they would never have gone with the inters .
Had this prediction come true , all the others would have been disadvantaged by being on full wets . As it was , only Ferrari had to come in , and clearly , they were the ones behind the 8 ball .

If the rains slowed or stopped , Ferrari would have run away into the distance , and undoubtedly there would have been cries that this was dreadfully unfair .

Since they were under the safety car for the first laps , the only fair way to deal with this would have been to pit the cars and return them to the grid in the same position in which they had started .
Then , we would have had a hell of a race , without the disadvantage of having title contenders hopes scuttled by something as stupid as an unreceived e-mail .

It is rather unbelieveable to me that this thread points at the reds as villains again , when they are the ones wronged here . Some spin .

[Flat.tyres]

It is rather unbelieveable to me that this thread points at the reds as villains again , when they are the ones wronged here . Some spin .

I'm not sure this thread makes Ferrari out to be Villians but that some people come out with some very silly things.

As for the email, they did receive it apparently exactly 60 minutes after everyone else. Now, this is an assumption but being exactly 60 mins suggests to me that it was an internal Ferrari IT issue otherwise they would have received it the same time as everyone else.

[Bagwan]

I'm not sure this thread makes Ferrari out to be Villians but that some people come out with some very silly things.

As for the email, they did receive it apparently exactly 60 minutes after everyone else. Now, this is an assumption but being exactly 60 mins suggests to me that it was an internal Ferrari IT issue otherwise they would have received it the same time as everyone else.

That , Flat , is how one sees it if one is no fan of Ferrari .

If , however , you see it from a red point of view , you might see it as the FIA having scuttled Ferrari's race .

I see it as having spoiled a battle up front , that might have sealed a championship already tainted by scandal .

Easily , we can all see the issues in our own computers daily , so it shouldn't be surprising that issues might crop up in such a heavily technical and portable environment that is F1 .
It was raining , you know , and that's not a small complication . Besides the actual water getting into the equipment , the atmosphere is highly charged to begin with because of the decisions that need be made if something like a mandated tire spec is issued .

I think we can all agree that it was a bad choice , but , it seems hardly likely that they would defy the directive , had they gotten it , as it risked exclusion during a tight title race .

The evidence shows me they were screwed by this situation , and whether it was a mistake , a technical issue , or a deliberate move , matters little . The Ferraris had to pit when nobody else did , and Luca is rightly asking for an apology .

[markabilly]

Seems to me too many people in F1 are finding a voice at the moment, between them all they are bringing F1 down.
No, F1 is doing a fine job, all by themselves

Jeez, you Italians make fantastic cars, you have the most beautiful country, but sheesh, you sure don't know how to lose do you?

Really?

We had 21 years of losing so we know how to do it, grazie, but perhaps you should keep your uninformed racist comments to yourself.

[SGWilko]

Really?

We had 21 years of losing so we know how to do it, grazie, but perhaps you should keep your uninformed racist comments to yourself.

Woah there fella, now how on earth was that racist? My understanding is that Ferrari is an Italian team, coming from Italy. That is merely fact.

Are you suggesting that you have been offended because I wrote 'you Italians'?

How am I meant to refer to the inhabitants of Italy, exactly?

I suspect, this is what makes the losing a little hard to take.

Racist I certainly am not, and would thank you to take such accusations back.

[Bagwan]

Woah there fella, now how on earth was that racist? My understanding is that Ferrari is an Italian team, coming from Italy. That is merely fact.

Are you suggesting that you have been offended because I wrote 'you Italians'?

How am I meant to refer to the inhabitants of Italy, exactly?

I suspect, this is what makes the losing a little hard to take.

Racist I certainly am not, and would thank you to take such accusations back.

Or , you could have said : "I'm sorry if you felt that a racist remark ."

Instead (and I'm not Italian , by the way) , you called all italians sore losers .

Should you be the one feeling insulted ?


This is in a thread deriding Ferrari , and you feel put out ?

[SGWilko]

Or , you could have said : "I'm sorry if you felt that a racist remark ."

Instead (and I'm not Italian , by the way) , you called all italians sore losers .

Should you be the one feeling insulted ?


This is in a thread deriding Ferrari , and you feel put out ?

Look, everyone has their opinion, right? Opinions are fine, and make the banter on here what it is.

But personal attacks and slurs of racism, for an informed opinion about the current management at Ferrari, you think that was justified?

That's exactly what is wrong with society today, its political correctness gone mad.

Why don't you just slate me for the beatiful car and country comment as well..........

[Hondo]

All things considered, I don't believe they were hurt by being told to come in to change tires. They would have had to do it sooner or later anyways. Considering the problems they were already having handling the cars, being forced to change the tires when they did may be the only reason they still had 2 cars in action at the end of the race.

[ioan]

Jeez, you Italians make fantastic cars, you have the most beautiful country, but sheesh, you sure don't know how to lose do you?

I could point out a worse loser between those F1 teams, but I leave it to you to guess who it is!

Jeez, you Italians make fantastic cars, you have the most beautiful country, but sheesh, you sure don't know how to lose do you?




Where in the above do you state 'Current Ferrari Management'?

Nowhere. Instead you slur all Italians then squeal that your not a racist.


But personal attacks and slurs of racism, for an informed opinion about the current management at Ferrari, you think that was justified?

[mstillhere]

LH championship would be tainted as there is so much Ferrari in the McLaren. Perhaps he ought to prove that one with hard evidence not all the usual likleyhood/suspicion rubbish they keep blurting on about.


Talking about being in denial.

PS Of course you can prove that although the almost 800 page dossier WAS in the McLaren offices NONE of its content EVER got into the McLAren, RIGHT? No to mention, as stated by Alonso (McLAren driver, rigth?) being fully aware when Ferrari was going to pit stop, their race configuration, the tires the had chosen to race with, and so on. Would that suffice to explain why Ferrari WAS NOT WINNING?

[Flat.tyres]

This is getting really silly.

Nobody said anything remotely Racist and I think SGWilco is owed an apology.

This is getting really silly.

Nobody said anything remotely Racist and I think SGWilco is owed an apology.

Then you're obviously not an Italian.

[ioan]

BTW who's Luca di MontaMosley?
Or even better why the need to link Montezemolo and Mosely in this denigrating thread?

[SGWilko]

This is getting really silly.

Nobody said anything remotely Racist and I think SGWilco is owed an apology.

Well, I didn't think I did, but hey ho. Thanks for the support.

[SGWilko]

BTW who's Luca di MontaMosley?
Or even better why the need to link Montezemolo and Mosely in this denigrating thread?


Perhaps I am using the language along the lines of someone elses 'McCheaters' thinking?

[Breeze]

To my mind there hasn't been enough said about this by the race stewards or FIA (as far as I can tell). Ferrari says the email was sent after the race had started yet in articles I have read it was suggested all the other teams knew of the directive. I am confused??

This much is certain. Had Ferrari started on intermediates there is high likelyhood they would have found their cars soon after with race ending damage. Seems to me the stewards did them a favor by making them change while still behind a safety car.

[ioan]

This much is certain. Had Ferrari started on intermediates there is high likelyhood they would have found their cars soon after with race ending damage. Seems to me the stewards did them a favor by making them change while still behind a safety car.

Because Ferrari couldn't have judged by themselves if the tires were suited or not to the track conditions?

I still don't understand why is that the FIA reserves themselves the right to tell them what tire to use. If they feel that they can do it on intermediates than they shall do it.
We've seen often enough MS racing, and being successful, while using different tires than the rest of them
So why take away one more variable and introduce a new constant in the equation?

[ioan]

Perhaps I am using the language along the lines of someone elses 'McCheaters' thinking?

Than go the whole way and make it clear!

I call McLaren cheaters and I will label Hamilton's WDC title as tainted because they were found guilty of cheating, and if not for economical reasons they would have been thrown out of F1 for 2 seasons.

So, using the MontaMosley name were you referring to the fact that the FIA managed to screw the Ferrari drivers chances again last weekend???

[SGWilko]

Where in the above do you state 'Current Ferrari Management'?

Nowhere.

It is in the title of the thread.......

[Flat.tyres]

Because Ferrari couldn't have judged by themselves if the tires were suited or not to the track conditions?

I still don't understand why is that the FIA reserves themselves the right to tell them what tire to use. If they feel that they can do it on intermediates than they shall do it.
We've seen often enough MS racing, and being successful, while using different tires than the rest of them
So why take away one more variable and introduce a new constant in the equation?

Ferrari took a gamble with Inters and we accept at face value that they had no knowledge of the directive before the start. That doesn't change the fact that it was a HUGE gamble and one that didn't pay off. They would have had to have come in anyway if they had Black/Orange or not as the track was dangerous on Inters which I guess is why the FIA sent the email they did.

Mind you, you do have a point in that it shouldn't be the decision of the FIA to tell teams what tyres to race on. If Ferrari want to crash out on Inters, that's their option. Starting the race with a rolling start is fair enough but telling a team what sort of tyres to choose is a bit much in my opinion. It should be a team decision. What next, telling the teams to 3 stop so there's not as much fuel on board :rolleyes:

It is in the title of the thread.......

Stop making excuses. You slurred all Italians.

[Flat.tyres]

Stop making excuses. You slurred all Italians.

Give it a rest and get back to the thread :rolleyes: You just missed me agreeing with ioan with all your pouting ;)

[SGWilko]

Talking about being in denial.

PS Of course you can prove that although the almost 800 page dossier WAS in the McLaren offices NONE of its content EVER got into the McLAren, RIGHT? No to mention, as stated by Alonso (McLAren driver, rigth?) being fully aware when Ferrari was going to pit stop, their race configuration, the tires the had chosen to race with, and so on. Would that suffice to explain why Ferrari WAS NOT WINNING?

What the real problem is right now, is that actually, no one has as yet provided the 'smoking gun' to properly implicate McLaren of incorporating Ferrari IP in their car.

Certainly, MC had the paperwork (I don't recall it being in the Technology Centre though).

The Ferrari was discussed in emails, and yes, FA, PDLR, MC and NS appear to have been dumb enough to leave a nice electronic trail of their conversations.

But I still fail to grasp the 'McLaren have Ferrari IP in their car' bit.

And as for the when are they going to stop conspiracy, even the F1 commentators have a rough idea when they are all going to stop, its called predictions. And even then, NS information was incorrect.

So, I really don't feel the need to prove anything.

[Bagwan]

Look, everyone has their opinion, right? Opinions are fine, and make the banter on here what it is.

But personal attacks and slurs of racism, for an informed opinion about the current management at Ferrari, you think that was justified?

That's exactly what is wrong with society today, its political correctness gone mad.

Why don't you just slate me for the beatiful car and country comment as well..........

You sting from being called racist . That's normal .

You need to understand why you were called that . That's ok .

You called Italians sore losers . That is insulting to Italians . That's not cool .

Are we straight on that now ?


This all about communication .
If your intention was not to insult , then withdraw the statement and you might find that the statement that you are racist might be withdrawn as well .
Stating you require an apology leaves some people believing you are , indeed , how they portray you .

[SGWilko]

Stop making excuses. You slurred all Italians.

No excuses, I just extended you the courtesy of answering your question.

No excuses, I just extended you the courtesy of answering your question.

So extend another courtesy and explain why you felt the need to slur the rest of Italy?

[SGWilko]

You need to understand why you were called that . That's ok .


I've tried really hard to respond to your post, but no matter what I write, it just comes out all wrong. So I gave up.

I just did not want you to think your post was ignored, because it wasn't.

[SGWilko]

So extend another courtesy and explain why you felt the need to slur the rest of Italy?

I'm sorry but I can only refer you to the original post, and I stand by everything I said.

Of all the posts on this forum that represent a 'McLaren v Ferrari debate, my opinion is that there is an element of sore losing, plenty of posters on here think we are sore losers, heck, one guy calls us inbreds - so what, I can take it on the chin.

So, I started a thread of my own, and I put my opinion down. I was not personal to anyone, nor was I racist.

If I didn't like Italians or Italy I would not chose to travel there. I love the Italian country, and the people, so much so in fact that we had our honeymoon in Brescia, and marveled at the delights of Lago Di Garda.

But that does not stop me expressing my opinion.

[SGWilko]

I call McLaren cheaters and I will label Hamilton's WDC title as tainted because they were found guilty of cheating, and if not for economical reasons they would have been thrown out of F1 for 2 seasons.



And you are entitled to your opinion. Mine simply differs from yours and I chose to use the same kind of play on words that others do - why not?

So, I started a thread of my own, and I put my opinion down. I was not personal to anyone, nor was I racist.

If I didn't like Italians or Italy I would not chose to travel there. I love the Italian country, and the people, so much so in fact that we had our honeymoon in Brescia, and marveled at the delights of Lago Di Garda.

But that does not stop me expressing my opinion.

Pathetic and typical of a racist.

[raikk]

Oh dear, I've just read a couple of stories on Autosport......

LH championship would be tainted as there is so much Ferrari in the McLaren. Perhaps he ought to prove that one with hard evidence not all the usual likleyhood/suspicion rubbish they keep blurting on about.

And if there is Ferrari in the McLaren, how come Ferrari can't make their Ferrari as fast as McLaren's Ferrari?

Jeez, you Italians make fantastic cars, you have the most beautiful country, but sheesh, you sure don't know how to lose do you?

And then, the next story Luca starts banging on that he wants an apology from the Fuji stewards!!! Oh my God, he really has lost it. He stated if it were not for the email, all cars would have started on inters - EVEN THOUGH TODT SAID IN HINDSIGHT THEY WERE THE WRONG CHOICE.

Holy smoke, there really is no communication in that team is there?

Ferrari are hell bent on making themselves the butt of so many jokes now, you just cannot take them seriously. And that is so sad, because, way back when, they were reveered, as was the great Enzo. That poor man must be spinning at a rev limited 19,000RPM in his grave with the shame of it all. I really want to like Ferrari, but they are making it so very hard right now, I don't think I'll bother.

this is why there is such a big gap between F1 fans who like other teams and Ferrari F1 fans....although it does look like the Mclaren F1 fans are starting to seperate a bit from the ''other teams'' fans... if you get my drift

[trumperZ06]

Talking about being in denial.

PS Of course you can prove that although the almost 800 page dossier WAS in the McLaren offices NONE of its content EVER got into the McLAren, RIGHT? No to mention, as stated by Alonso (McLAren driver, rigth?) being fully aware when Ferrari was going to pit stop, their race configuration, the tires the had chosen to race with, and so on. Would that suffice to explain why Ferrari WAS NOT WINNING?

:p : Come-on Guys,

In most courts...

the accused is considered INOCENT...

until proven GUILTY !!!

:rolleyes: Then Mad Max goes on to warn/threaten the McLaren team not to punish Alonso for attempted Blackmail !!!

[SGWilko]

Pathetic and typical of a racist.
You are just not understanding the original post are you, I can tell by your tone.

You are acting as if I was stating fact, but it was posed as a question.

Perhaps you should just reply with - 'no, we are not'.

[ioan]

And you are entitled to your opinion. Mine simply differs from yours and I chose to use the same kind of play on words that others do - why not?

McLaren being found guilty is not my opinion, is a fact, it happened last Month in Paris at the last WMSC hearing.
They were also facing a 2 year exclusion, another fact.
BE declared himself that he had to use all his abilities to change the 2 years ban into a 1 year ban for the team and a $ 100000000 fine.

So it's not my opinion, it's exactly what happened.

[Bagwan]

I've tried really hard to respond to your post, but no matter what I write, it just comes out all wrong. So I gave up.

I just did not want you to think your post was ignored, because it wasn't.

It's all about being both "understanding" and "understood" .

You now understand what was understood .
Being that you feel insulted , I would suggest that you feel you words were mis-interpretted , showing you know you didn't get your intended point across .
So , if you didn't make your point clearly , and you know it was your responsibility to do so , why react with anger at being called something it wasn't your intent to be ?
Tamburello , just like Ferrari , deserves that apology more than you .



Now , as to the FIA calling the reds in because they were on inters , that is to be expected .
That's not the issue .

They , for whatever reason , did not get the directive .

They could have let them rejoin the pack in the proper places , as they were still under the safety car .

[SGWilko]

Bagwan,

Thank you for that post.

I unreservedley apologise to anyone who took offence to my post because they thought I was stating fact. I was not and it was posed as a question.

No offence was meant to anyone, certainly not the Italian nation, and neither to Tamburello.

Apologies for the delayed reply but my naffing Blackberry won't play ball.

Stuart.

[SGWilko]

Now , as to the FIA calling the reds in because they were on inters , that is to be expected .
That's not the issue .

They , for whatever reason , did not get the directive .

They could have let them rejoin the pack in the proper places , as they were still under the safety car .

The only comment to your last paragraph is concerning re-fuelling. Had Ferrari not re-fuelled then yes, they can take up their positions, but IMSMC, they did fuel the cars, and that would have presented an unfair advantage.

[Bagwan]

The only comment to your last paragraph is concerning re-fuelling. Had Ferrari not re-fuelled then yes, they can take up their positions, but IMSMC, they did fuel the cars, and that would have presented an unfair advantage.

I would agree with that .

They could have been given a directive not to refuel at the same time as being told to pit for tires .

That would have been fair .


By the way , thank-you for post #41 .

[Hondo]

Than go the whole way and make it clear!

I call McLaren cheaters and I will label Hamilton's WDC title as tainted because they were found guilty of cheating, and if not for economical reasons they would have been thrown out of F1 for 2 seasons.

So, using the MontaMosley name were you referring to the fact that the FIA managed to screw the Ferrari drivers chances again last weekend???

Define cheating. The FIA could find no proof that Ferrari technology was used on McLaren's car.

Let's, once and for all, have ioan's definition of cheating so we know exactly what he is referring to with it's use. That way, we will all know when we can use the word "cheat" without offending ioan.

[Hondo]

McLaren being found guilty is not my opinion, is a fact, it happened last Month in Paris at the last WMSC hearing.
They were also facing a 2 year exclusion, another fact.
BE declared himself that he had to use all his abilities to change the 2 years ban into a 1 year ban for the team and a $ 100000000 fine.

So it's not my opinion, it's exactly what happened.

McLaren was found to be in violation of rule 151c of the sporting regulations, i.e., "bringing the sport into disrepute".

No where, on any FIA document, have they been found "guilty of cheating" and the word "cheat" is not used anywhere.

[Hondo]

You sting from being called racist . That's normal .

You need to understand why you were called that . That's ok .

You called Italians sore losers . That is insulting to Italians . That's not cool .

Are we straight on that now ?


This all about communication .
If your intention was not to insult , then withdraw the statement and you might find that the statement that you are racist might be withdrawn as well .
Stating you require an apology leaves some people believing you are , indeed , how they portray you .

Wouldn't Italian be considered a nationality and not a race? Is being American a race? Is being English a race?

[Tazio]

Jeez, you Italians make fantastic cars, you have the most beautiful country, but sheesh, you sure don't know how to lose do you?


Nice freakin' thread, and post!
As a Ferrari backer I'm starting to find the whole business embarrassing!
And being a guy who participated in team sport at a high competitive level, I know you are right. Know when you've lost. Suck it up. Be a man. (At least stop crying until you have officially lost) Have some dignity! After all Ferrari are WCC champs! To me that is fair compensation, especially from his perspective, since he's not driving! There will always be the suggestion that McLaren's driver came by the WDC under suspicious conditions. And if some really damning evidence comes to light later ok deal with it then. Right now he sounds like a whining little pu$$y, and imo is undermining the dignity of an otherwise well respected F-1 establishment!

[mstillhere]

:p : Come-on Guys,

In most courts...

the accused is considered INOCENT...

until proven GUILTY !!!

:rolleyes: Then Mad Max goes on to warn/threaten the McLaren team not to punish Alonso for attempted Blackmail !!!

So, by appying your own statement, how's is Ferrari guilty? Sure that nobody knows if RD did or did not look at the Ferrari files BUT how sure are we that Ferrari cheated in the tire issue? Or McLAren fans are so desperate that have to say whatever to denigrate Ferrari and their fans, even if it's not logical? So, can anyone prove that they actually got the message after everybody else and decided to do their own thing anyway? How smart is that?
In response to your other statement about "innocent until proven guilty" if you are rerferring to the US justice system, well I think that it applies to the USA of an other era. That's now all gone, now! Example? The lacrosse kids at Duke University, Jeena6, and so on. So, let's no lecture other people about ethics when the dirt is in our own country.

[trumperZ06]

So, by appying your own statement, how's is Ferrari guilty? Sure that nobody knows if RD did or did not look at the Ferrari files BUT how sure are we that Ferrari cheated in the tire issue? Or McLAren fans are so desperate that have to say whatever to denigrate Ferrari and their fans, even if it's not logical? So, can anyone prove that they actually got the message after everybody else and decided to do their own thing anyway? How smart is that?
In response to your other statement about "innocent until proven guilty" if you are rerferring to the US justice system, well I think that it applies to the USA of an other era. That's now all gone, now! Example? The lacrosse kids at Duke University, Jeena6, and so on. So, let's no lecture other people about ethics when the dirt is in our own country.

:p : WHOOOA... I haven't posted about Ferrari's tire fiasco !!! My post was in response to your referencing 800 pages of information supposably used by Team McLaren !!!

:rolleyes: What kind of Cheap-Shot Artist are you... questioning the U S Justice System !!!

It may not be the ideal... but it's been far better than anyone else's thoughout our history !!!

FYI... the Duke University Lacrosse SNAFU... was caused by a rogue prosecuter... and not... a GUILTY VERDICT by a court of law !!!

Unlike Max's kangaroo court finding McLaren Guilty... and then fining them 100 million dollars for bringing the sport into "disrepute" !!!

As if anyone could do more damage to the FIA's reputation than Max did at Indy in 2005 !!!

:s mokin:

[Garry Walker]

Then you're obviously not an Italian.

No, he is a realist. People get "offended" for everything these days, it it a joke. Stop being such babys.
Want to call me a "racist" too? I will give you ammo for it, I think italian football players are the biggest divers in world. Go on.

I agree with Montezemolo. Hamiltons title will always be tainted.

[Tazio]

:

:rolleyes: What kind of Cheap-Shot Artist are you... questioning the U S Justice System !!!

It may not be the ideal... but it's been far better than anyone else's thoughout our history !!!


Aint' buying it.
I am quite close to the legal system in the U.S. More and more the burden of proof lies on the defendant in criminal matters! I suggest Canadian, British, and Northern European legal systems are more impartial!

[kalasend]

Easily , we can all see the issues in our own computers daily , so it shouldn't be surprising that issues might crop up in such a heavily technical and portable environment that is F1 .

I work in the tech/IT field and I have to say that it's next to impossible to believe that all teams' systems work except Ferrari's. The most probable explanation is that somebody simply neglected the message. Human error is always the most probable cause of failure.

[AJP]

I work in the tech/IT field and I have to say that it's next to impossible to believe that all teams' systems work except Ferrari's. The most probable explanation is that somebody simply neglected the message. Human error is always the most probable cause of failure.I agree...!

[truefan72]

This is getting really silly.

Nobody said anything remotely Racist and I think SGWilco is owed an apology.


agreed :up:

if calling Italy "the most beautiful country" and referring to making the nicest cars can somehow be construed as being racist, then there's no hope in this world

you'all know exactly what he meant, and he furthermore went on to clarify his point, but you guys are out for blood just 'cause you are Ferrari fans and can't/refuse to see the lunacy in LDM comments. Or even the fact that nobody needs to be hearing from him at this time.

[truefan72]

this is geting out of hand

accusations of racism ( when to begin with Italians aren't a race)
unprovoked attacks on nations judicial systems

I thought the thread was about the comments by the Ferrari cHief
which most rational people would agree adds nothing to the world, and in many ways undignifies Ferrari and they proud Outfit.

I'm not sure J. Todt is too happy with his comments and would be more than please if LdM wouldn't get so invloved in the whole Saga.

[ShiftingGears]

perhaps you should keep your uninformed racist comments to yourself.

I didn't know Italians were another race ;)
Uninformed eh?

[Narr]

Ferrari need to stop bleating about the tyre issue and get on with racing. For the last 3 seasons they've lost the plot slightly and this really is not going to help them win anything; the Stewards issued a directive and Ferrari should have followed it or at least wondered why the press and every other team knew about it.

It's right up there with placing 3 tyres on Eddie's car :d

[trumperZ06]

Aint' buying it.
I am quite close to the legal system in the U.S. More and more the burden of proof lies on the defendant in criminal matters! I suggest Canadian, British, and Northern European legal systems are more impartial!


:p : Pffft. No one is trying to SELL YOU anything !!!

If you really believe that... why stay here and raise a family in this kind of enviroment ???

;) The court itself is impartial !!! Thank GOD for the jury system which we got from English Common Law.

Some prosecutors and police departments... may not be !!!

[spiltmilk]

nO ONES LISTENING U SILLY WHOP

[Ranger]

Woah... glad I haven't read this thread. :\

LdM blames McLaren having Ferrari info for Hamilton (or Alonso) winning, Todt blames Ferrari's poor reliability.


Todt laments lack of reliability in 2007

By Pablo Elizalde Tuesday, October 2nd 2007, 16:15 GMT


Ferrari team boss Jean Todt believes their lack of reliability this season is the reason why the drivers' title is unlikely to be won by the Italian squad's drivers.

Brazilian Felipe Massa mathematically dropped out of contention at last weekend's Japanese Grand Prix while teammate Kimi Raikkonen will need a miracle to be champion this year.

The Finn is 17 points behind Lewis Hamilton with only two races remaining.

Raikkonen has suffered two retirements through mechanical reasons, and while Massa has only one retirement, the Brazilian has been hit by reliability issues during qualifying too.

Hamilton has finished all races and teammate Fernando Alonso, second in the championship, suffered his first retirement of the year when he crashed out of the Fuji race last Sunday.

"If we won't bring back to Maranello - together with the constructors' title - also the drivers' title, it is, because we didn't have enough reliability," Todt told Ferrarriworld.com.

"It's enough to have a look at the championship: we lost some very important points - and I'm thinking about the problems Felipe had in Australia, Great Britain and Italy and the ones Kimi had at Barcelona and at the Nurburgring. With these points we would be really close to the actual leader in the championship.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62940

[Crypt]

The circus continues...

Quick, get me a cotton candy and some popcorn.

[markabilly]

The circus continues...

Quick, get me a cotton candy and some popcorn.
Exactly, just what benrie wants, as you as you buy it from him :vader:

[mstillhere]

Aint' buying it.
I am quite close to the legal system in the U.S. More and more the burden of proof lies on the defendant in criminal matters! I suggest Canadian, British, and Northern European legal systems are more impartial!

Why is it that some people can not call things for what they are? It looks they stole it, it looks like they used, it looks like they did it. Would like to know why? Hum...I'll have you "guess" the answer.
PS The US judicial system? If you ever make it to the suspect list, you can pretty much start packing. Unless you have BIG bucks (the lacrosse guys), to get yourself off the hook, you are guilty unless you are proven innocent.

[mstillhere]

:p : Pffft. No one is trying to SELL YOU anything !!!

If you really believe that... why stay here and raise a family in this kind of enviroment ???

;) The court itself is impartial !!! Thank GOD for the jury system which we got from English Common Law.

Some prosecutors and police departments... may not be !!!

What are smoking, man? We are in the year 2007. And by the way the English judicial system, that you like so much, ended up in bottom of the ocean in Boston long time ago.

[wmcot]

Now what was this thread about again????

[ShiftingGears]

Di Montezemolo making OTT claims when he should really just cop it on the chin.
"It means that if Hamilton wins the championship, he will also win it thanks to Ferrari because there is a lot of Ferrari in his car."

[mstillhere]

McLaren was found to be in violation of rule 151c of the sporting regulations, i.e., "bringing the sport into disrepute".

No where, on any FIA document, have they been found "guilty of cheating" and the word "cheat" is not used anywhere.

You are really hopeless. Did you ever heard of the expression: "connect the dots". Did you ever read Alonso statements about him and PDR getting first hand info from Ferrari's traitor? What do you mean that McLaren personnel was not cheating? That RD did not get his hands dirty? Are you serious? Beacause I truly think that the truth is right there and you refuse to see it. And bringing the sport into disrepute, in you opinion, is not a big deal, right?

[ArrowsFA1]

Di Montezemolo making OTT claims when he should really just cop it on the chin.
"It means that if Hamilton wins the championship, he will also win it thanks to Ferrari because there is a lot of Ferrari in his car."
Where Luca, where???

We see a Williams with a McLaren front wing, and Toyota running Ferrari's wheel covers but is there a prancing horse hiding somewhere on the McLaren? :p :

[ioan]

McLaren was found to be in violation of rule 151c of the sporting regulations, i.e., "bringing the sport into disrepute".

No where, on any FIA document, have they been found "guilty of cheating" and the word "cheat" is not used anywhere.

Does cheating bring the sport into disrepute? You bet it does!

You don't like me calling them CHEATERS? WHAT about THIEVES and LIARS?! Still doesn't make them look better!

Sometimes I wonder how is that some think that they know better than the WMSC about what McLaren did?!
The transcripts are to be found on the net, there is some info deleted on request of McLaren and Ferrari, but you can see what happened if your read it.

[philipbain]

Luca Montezemolo's comments are laughable, there is no evidence of the 2007 McLaren having any Ferrari design in it, the McLaren is a quite different car, it has a shorter wheelbase (and since Stepneygate we've also found out different weight distribution) and it's aero is an evolution of McLaren derived aero concepts that McLaren have been running with over the last few seasons.

I honestly think that this coming from Ferrari is really a bit rich, a team that have repeatedly brought the sport into disrepute (Austria 2001, Austria 2002, USA 2002, Monaco 2006 but to mention a few) and have manipulated the governing body to thier advantage on numerous occassions (front tyre regs in 2003, mass dampers in 2006 spring to mind).

Knowledge transfer happens constantly in F1 as personel move from team to team, its impossible to wipe thier memory and its obvious to all that the reason why other teams want personel from thier rivals is due to the knowledge they bring with them in addition to thier ability, McLaren were unfortunate that one of thier employees decided to transfer knowledge in a covert manner rather than in the usual fashion, thats all I can see that they are guilty of. As for Max Moseley's "SMS Text" and email evidence it reveals nothing more than engineers would normally share in conversation (tyre pressures and weight distributions), certainly nothing to suggest that McLaren were systematically using Ferrari data in the design or development of the car, McLaren's decision not to appeal the ludicrous fine and exclusion from the constructors championship has obviously been made in the interests of the sport rather than in the interest of fairness, for which they should be applauded. Also they should only pay half the fine, as it would reflect what seems to be standard FIA practice, Ferrari were fined $1 million after the disgusting debacle at the 2002 Austrian GP when Micheal Schumacher was gifted a win that he neither deserved or needed, then the FIA said that Ferrari need only pay half of it, which sends out a message that this incident had in some way become more acceptable, when the team should have been given a suspended ban / disqualification which then would h\ave been actioned after the US GP when the same thing happened again, this time Schumacher tried to set up a dead heat and gifted Barrichello with a win he didnt deserve or need.

Needless to say I take any comments from Ferrari with a pinch of salt and regard the team with the contempt that they have earned by thier actions over the past decade.

[ioan]

Define cheating. The FIA could find no proof that Ferrari technology was used on McLaren's car.

Let's, once and for all, have ioan's definition of cheating so we know exactly what he is referring to with it's use. That way, we will all know when we can use the word "cheat" without offending ioan.

Here you go:



Cheating is defined as an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others.[1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating

Did McLaren lie?
Yes they did.

Did they create an unfair advantage they used in their own interest and at the expense of others?
Yes they did.

Did they brake the rules?
Yes they did!

So where does you confusion come from?

[ioan]

Luca Montezemolo's comments are laughable, there is no evidence of the 2007 McLaren having any Ferrari design in it,

Did he say something about Ferrari design or about Ferrari parts? No.

What about Ferrari setup information, what about Ferrari methodology? You know, those things called Intellectual Property.
Well, it is well documented that McLaren were using this kind of information to improve their cars! ;)

[SGWilko]

Did he say something about Ferrari design or about Ferrari parts? No.

What about Ferrari setup information, what about Ferrari methodology? You know, those things called Intellectual Property.
Well, it is well documented that McLaren were using this kind of information to improve their cars! ;)

What about the info that Kimi would have brought with him from McLaren? Do you suppose JT or LDM said to him....

'Now, we know you know what you know about you know who, but be a good lad and dont tell us, bcause we are all very well behaved here, in fact, butter would not melt in our mouths'

And yes, that is decidedly tongue in cheek and cynical, but you get the idea.

Who's fault is it NS is willing to offer information to the opposition. Who else has he called, any one know for a fact he has not called other teams. Do we even know that he didn't initiate all the calls to MC, is there hard evidence?

[ShiftingGears]

Ioan, see post 66.

[philipbain]

Did he say something about Ferrari design or about Ferrari parts? No.

What about Ferrari setup information, what about Ferrari methodology? You know, those things called Intellectual Property.
Well, it is well documented that McLaren were using this kind of information to improve their cars! ;)

Luca's exact words were "It means that if Hamilton wins the championship, he will also win it thanks to Ferrari because there is a lot of Ferrari in his car" - that to me implies that he thinks that the car it's self has Ferrari design elements in it, which it obviously doesnt. The Stepneygate hearing should have made it clear that whilst McLaren seemed to have access to some Ferrari information regarding tyres pressures and weight distribution there is no evidence that they actually used them, although it was suggested in a De La Rosa / Alonso email that they might try it they actually didnt, mainly because the philosphy of both cars is so different that the information wasnt very transferable between the two. So what you said is wrong, it is well documented that McLaren were NOT using this kind of information to improve their cars, although they seemed to have access to it!!

[janneppi]

Apparently according to grandprix.com Stepney claims there was a data stream From McLaren to Ferrari through him and he discussed the data with other Ferrari engineers as well.

Oh dear. :p :

[philipbain]

Nice, maybe a $100 million fine and exclusion for Ferrari too? BMW Sauber to be 2007 constructors champs - place your bets now!!!

[SGWilko]

See,

What I have the most problem with in this Stepneygate saga is the behaviour of the FIA. Do they honestly expect us to believe that this is an isolated incident?

Is MM really that blinkered to assume other teams do not do this. There is previous form in the Toyota case - which, unbelievable the FIA did not get involved in. And I still can't work that one out.

It just smacks of a ruling body that has not a clue.

He is no better than Jean Marie Ballestre was, and people voted Max in because they were fed up with JMB!

If ever there is a case of abuse of power/privilege, Max is displaying it to a tee.

[philipbain]

Is it just me or do the words can of worms spring instantly to mind? This could be F1's Watergate, a simple investigation about one incident (alleged sabbotage of a Ferrari chassis by Nigel Stepney prior to the Monaco GP) leading to one ghastly revelation after another and exposing the entire sport as being a giant sieve.

[SGWilko]

Apparently according to grandprix.com Stepney claims there was a data stream From McLaren to Ferrari through him and he discussed the data with other Ferrari engineers as well.

Oh dear. :p :

If that is the case (and maybe all those calls were not a one way flow of info) then there is going to be a lot of egg on the face of the Prancing Horse.

[seppefan]

Well, I didn't think I did, but hey ho. Thanks for the support.

and you have my support after reading the childish comments by some peole here just because they are Italians. Give me strength.

[ioan]

Ioan, see post 66.

Some people around here consider that "a lot of Ferrari" = some physical parts designed for the F2007!

This only proves that these same people have a rather obtuse way of thinking and seeing things, and are not able to take into account any possibility that doesn't suit their limited vision , and this wouldn't be a problem if they would at least try to enlarge their knowledge with informations that other members are bringing into discussion.

Which brings me to the point where I question why try to discuss with people who are not even trying to listen, let alone try to understand you?

[ioan]

Luca's exact words were "It means that if Hamilton wins the championship, he will also win it thanks to Ferrari because there is a lot of Ferrari in his car" - that to me implies that he thinks that the car it's self has Ferrari design elements in it, which it obviously doesnt. The Stepneygate hearing should have made it clear that whilst McLaren seemed to have access to some Ferrari information regarding tyres pressures and weight distribution there is no evidence that they actually used them, although it was suggested in a De La Rosa / Alonso email that they might try it they actually didnt, mainly because the philosphy of both cars is so different that the information wasnt very transferable between the two. So what you said is wrong, it is well documented that McLaren were NOT using this kind of information to improve their cars, although they seemed to have access to it!!

See my post above^!

[philipbain]

Have a look at the GrandPrix.com article: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19720.html - its very interesting stuff and underlines what the more sensible amongst us have been saying saying on here.

[philipbain]

Some people around here consider that "a lot of Ferrari" = some physical parts designed for the F2007!

This only proves that these same people have a rather obtuse way of thinking and seeing things, and are not able to take into account any possibility that doesn't suit their limited vision , and this wouldn't be a problem if they would at least try to enlarge their knowledge with informations that other members are bringing into discussion.

Which brings me to the point where I question why try to discuss with people who are not even trying to listen, let alone try to understand you?

This makes no sense as I for one can't see any parts in either the aerodynamic or mechanical systems unique to the F2007 that are the same on the McLaren MP4-22. The aero is a development of the philosophy they have been using since 2005, the suspension is zero keel as McLaren have used for some time, Ferrari have only recently adopted this approach, the braking systems are very different (Ferrari using wheel covers with questionable legality). I am struggling to see what the hell you are trying to get at, I even think Ferrari themselves might admit that the McLaren and Ferrari chassis are about as different as you are going to get within such a constrictive set of rules.

[SGWilko]

Have a look at the GrandPrix.com article: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19720.html - its very interesting stuff and underlines what the more sensible amongst us have been saying saying on here.

:eek: If that really IS the case, then someone is gonna get scr3w3d big time, and that might just be a top line F1 team. :uhoh:

Personally, if the 5h1t does hit the fan, then F1 will become so devalued, because it will reveal the FIA, or to be fair Max, as a two faced individual with a very clear axe to grind. :down:

[ArrowsFA1]

Apparently according to grandprix.com Stepney claims there was a data stream From McLaren to Ferrari through him and he discussed the data with other Ferrari engineers as well.

Oh dear. :p :


Stepney says that he believes Ferrari have been let off surprisingly lightly by the FIA. He says that there is a point that everyone is missing because they are assuming that the flow of information to Mike Coughlan was a one-way flow and that Ferrari did not gain anything. There is no evidence at all that Stepney was being paid to pass on information and he says that it was rather more simple than that.
"I got information about when they [McLaren] were stopping," Stepney says. "I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car from him [Coughlan]. Ferrari got off very lightly. I was their employee at the time. I was aware of certain stuff they were doing at tests, fuel levels, for example. I knew what fuel level they were running. I think they should have been docked points personally. The question is: Did I use the information, did I talk about it?' That's the big question. I spoke to some people about it. I can't prove it, there are no e-mails or anything. Points about the fuel and the differences were discussed inside. As well as McLaren having an advantage, did Ferrari have an advantage? I think so."
So is Stepney surprised that Ferrari got off entirely without penalty?
"Very surprised," he says. "It looks like information flowing only one way. [b]No one has been balancing the argument. No one has asked the question. They were thinking Mike was asking the questions and I was answering them."

These allegations are on a par with those made against McLaren, for which they were subsequently heavily penalised.

I hope that Max Mosley and the FIA will now "ask the question" of Ferrari.

[ioan]

"I got information about when they [McLaren] were stopping," Stepney says. "I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car from him [Coughlan]. Ferrari got off very lightly. I was their employee at the time. I was aware of certain stuff they were doing at tests, fuel levels, for example. I knew what fuel level they were running. I think they should have been docked points personally. The question is: Did I use the information, did I talk about it?' That's the big question. I spoke to some people about it. I can't prove it, there are no e-mails or anything. Points about the fuel and the differences [between Ferrari and McLaren] were discussed inside. As well as McLaren having an advantage, did Ferrari have an advantage? I think so."

So is Stepney surprised that Ferrari got off entirely without penalty?

"Very surprised," he says. "It looks like information flowing only one way. No one has been balancing the argument. No one has asked the question. They were thinking Mike was asking the questions and I was answering them."

Stepney, one can argue, is a source that is seen to be somewhat tainted given all the allegations that have been made in Italy. But they are only allegations at the moment. Nothing has been proved in a proper court of law and until it is he has as much right to make his feelings known as Montezemolo.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19720.html

So many [] in there, added by the journalist. But let's ignore this side.

Where is the proof that Stepney got info from McLaren? Was any info found in Stepney's or Ferrari's possession?

Stepney's credibility is below zero.
Let's not forget how he was fearing for his and his family's life in an attempt to denigrate Ferrari. Seems to me that no one ever touched him.

[ioan]

These allegations are on a par with those made against McLaren, for which they were subsequently heavily penalised.

I hope that Max Mosley and the FIA will now "ask the question" of Ferrari.

Yep, ask them, and if they find the same proof as in McLaren's case than give them the same punishment.

[SGWilko]

Stepney's credibility is below zero.


But why? He was tantamount to much of Ferrari's successful championship campains with is workaholic ethic and attention to detail. He may well have had his nose put out of joint by Ferrari's oversight of his contribution, and this may well have led to his behaviour, but no credibility.

Seems to me he could hold the key to set the record straight?

[ArrowsFA1]

Where is the proof that Stepney got info from McLaren? Was any info found in Stepney's or Ferrari's possession?
That's something the FIA should now be asking. Stepney is clear in that report that the flow of information went both ways.

[ioan]

Seems to me he could hold the key to set the record straight?

Not really, as he says:

I can't prove it, there are no e-mails or anything.

[ioan]

That's something the FIA should now be asking. Stepney is clear in that report that the flow of information went both ways.

Ron was saying that no one else but Coughlan knew about the Ferrari infos. It was proved to be a lie.

[ShiftingGears]

Some people around here consider that "a lot of Ferrari" = some physical parts designed for the F2007!

This only proves that these same people have a rather obtuse way of thinking and seeing things, and are not able to take into account any possibility that doesn't suit their limited vision , and this wouldn't be a problem if they would at least try to enlarge their knowledge with informations that other members are bringing into discussion.

If someone goes as far as disagreeing with you I don't see that as a ground to claim that their vision for different possibilities is limited. You'd have to have a very obtuse view to seriously think that what's in the tyres and weight distributions that weren't tested constitute "a lot of Ferrari". Montezemolo has a right to be pissed off that the drivers weren't penalised but when he makes dumb claims like he did he simply comes off as an idiot, and a sore loser. He should shut up and do his job.


Which brings me to the point where I question why try to discuss with people who are not even trying to listen, let alone try to understand you?
And I have absolutely no doubt many have that same opinion towards your posts.

[ioan]

If someone goes as far as disagreeing with you I don't see that as a ground to claim that their vision for different possibilities is limited. You'd have to have a very obtuse view to seriously think that what's in the tyres and weight distributions that weren't tested constitute "a lot of Ferrari". Montezemolo has a right to be pissed off that the drivers weren't penalised but when he makes dumb claims like he did he simply comes off as an idiot, and a sore loser. He should shut up and do his job.


And I have absolutely no doubt many have that same opinion towards your posts.

You call Montezemolo an idiot because his point of view differs from yours but you say that I can't criticize someone because they aren't willing to think.

Nice double standards you have! :p :

[SGWilko]

When this whole Stepneygate thing started, I read an article, possibly in Autosport, that Ferrari had made an approach to MC with a view to employing him in their design dept.

Could this first contact with them have lead to him PASSING info as well as RECEIVING it?

It is possible.......

[ShiftingGears]

You call Montezemolo an idiot because his point of view differs from yours but you say that I can't criticize someone because they aren't willing to think.

Nice double standards you have! :p :

I call Montezemolo an idiot because its pretty bloody obvious that his statement that "a lot of Ferrari is in the McLaren" is utter crap.

[BDunnell]

Ron was saying that no one else but Coughlan knew about the Ferrari infos. It was proved to be a lie.

No, it was not proved to be a lie. It was proved to be untrue. There is a big difference.

[BDunnell]

You call Montezemolo an idiot because his point of view differs from yours but you say that I can't criticize someone because they aren't willing to think.

Here you go again about people criticising others purely because they hold a different point of view. Speaking for myself, and probably other people you make the same accusation about, this isn't true. As I've said time and time again, I have nothing against opposing viewpoints — it's when the viewpoints are based on nothing more than outright bias, rather than an appreciation of the wider picture, that I have a problem with them. I thought I made this quite clear in another thread.

[Flat.tyres]

Wouldn't it be interesting if a piece of evidence emerges linking the flow of information from McLaren to Ferrari :devil:

Any guesses what the FIA would do? Sweet Fanny Adams is my guess.

[SGWilko]

No, it was not proved to be a lie. It was proved to be untrue. There is a big difference.

Here here.

The whole point is that you are all damning RD, calling him a cheat etc. I am prepared to take him for his word that he has been nothing but truthful. If others in his team have witheld the truth from him, and unless he has esp, he cannot know everything that goes on to the Nth degree.

[BDunnell]

Wouldn't it be interesting if a piece of evidence emerges linking the flow of information from McLaren to Ferrari :devil:

Any guesses what the FIA would do? Sweet Fanny Adams is my guess.

I actually think that hard evidence would oblige them to investigate, or face losing all credibility whatsoever. Mosley surely wouldn't be that stupid.

[BDunnell]

Oh, by the way, I must say that I found the accusations of racism earlier in this thread completely and utterly ridiculous, and I reckon I have a pretty low threshold myself when it comes to saying that certain comments are racist.

[Hondo]

Ron was saying that no one else but Coughlan knew about the Ferrari infos. It was proved to be a lie.

It was not a lie. It was correct with the knowledge that Dennis had at that time. If you ask me if it's dark outside and I say yes and you go out 3 hours later and the sun has come up, I haven't lied to you, the conditions have changed.

[Hondo]

Oh, by the way, I must say that I found the accusations of racism earlier in this thread completely and utterly ridiculous, and I reckon I have a pretty low threshold myself when it comes to saying that certain comments are racist.

I said it earlier in the post, but will say it again. Being Italain is a nationality, not a race. Being American is not a race. Being English is not a race, etc. Someone used the term racist out of context and the rest of the mob quit thinking and went looking for a rope.

[SGWilko]

I see that someone posted a particularly nasty slang word for Italians a while back, and no-one batted an eyelid.

Is this forum run by the FIA do you suppose? ;) :D :p :

[Flat.tyres]

I see that someone posted a particularly nasty slang word for Italians a while back, and no-one batted an eyelid.

Is this forum run by the FIA do you suppose? ;)

Christ on a bike. You should hear what they say about us Brits on here. :laugh: We just laugh it off :D

Some people are a bit more passionate and volatile though, must be the Latin temprement. OMG, is that Racist :laugh:

Don't worry, I'm about to complain about that.

For those of you who aren't aware of the upset the original comment caused, I was upset by the sentence "You Italians...." when there was no need to bring Italians into it, the thread being about one man.

Since that is apparently ok and I get reprimanded for calling it out, it must be ok to call all you English child-killers?

After all, Ian Huntley is English.

[SGWilko]

Christ on a bike. You should hear what they say about us Brits on here. :laugh: We just laugh it off :D

That's the good ole blighty spirit that is.... Give us a nice long queue any day of the week, and never expect us to complain. :p :

(I won't have my fwiends widiculed by the common soldiewy. now, thwow him to the floor and stwike him woughly centuwion) :D

[SGWilko]

Don't worry, I'm about to complain about that.

For those of you who aren't aware of the upset the original comment caused, I was upset by the sentence "You Italians...." when there was no need to bring Italians into it, the thread being about one man.

Since that is apparently ok and I get reprimanded for calling it out, it must be ok to call all you English child-killers?

After all, Ian Huntley is English.

Sadly, he was, and he is. But a racist that does not him make.

If you know you are not a bad loser, why get so het up about it?

Are you still not man enough to apologise for calling me a racist?

[SGWilko]

there was no need to bring Italians into it

I was talking about an Italian team, a not insignificant slant on the matter I think.

If you know you are not a bad loser, why get so het up about it?

Are you still not man enough to apologise for calling me a racist?

I make no apology for being insulted.

[SGWilko]

I make no apology because that is exactly what your disgusting and insulting comment was.That just about tells me all I need to know then, doesn't it?

That just about tells me all I need to know then, doesn't it?

Yes, you now know I don't like racists.

[SGWilko]

I make no apology for being insulted.

I don't want apology from you because you thought I was insulting you, I asked for an apology because you suggested I was racist.......

[ShiftingGears]

Italians aren't another race.


I was talking about an Italian team, a not insignificant slant on the matter I think.

Leave the wogs alone SGWilko ;)

[SGWilko]

Yes, you now know I don't like racists.

Biting my tongue here fella........

[SGWilko]

Italians aren't another race.



Leave the wogs alone SGWilko ;)

Oh great, well that really helps, doesn't it? :down:

[ShiftingGears]

A bit of lighthearted banter hurt noone. Lighten up, fellas.

Biting my tongue here fella........

If only you'd done that in the first place and maybe you wouldn't have caused offence.

I repeat, there is no need whatsoever to slur a nationality on the basis of what one man has said.

[SGWilko]

If only you'd done that in the first place and maybe you wouldn't have caused offence.

I repeat, there is no need whatsoever to slur a nationality on the basis of what one man has said.

You need to read post one again. It was a question - albeit you may wish to see it a rhetorical, but that was not how it was meant. I've even said as much, not that it did any good.

You are merely digging yourself a bigger hole.......

And, since when is causing offence racism?

You need to read post one again. It was a question - albeit you may wish to see it a rhetorical, but that was not how it was meant. I've even said as much, not that it did any good.

You are merely digging yourself a bigger hole.......

And, since when is causing offence racism?

Since when is causing offence racism?

When it insults a nation.

Which is exactly what your comment, be it formed in a rhetorical question or not, did.

Luca Di Montezemolo is Italian, but only one Italian is Luca Di Montezemolo.

Your orignal post was crass and insulting.

However, since you have apologised and have pointed out that your statement was not meant in such a way (hadn't seen it earlier, for which I am to blame) then I too apologise.

Sadly, for another member of this forum who thinks it's funny to use a denigrating word, there will be absolutely no apology, but to yourself there is.

Mea Culpa.

[SGWilko]

Since when is causing offence racism?

When it insults a nation.

Which is exactly what your comment, be it formed in a rhetorical question or not, did.

Luca Di Montezemolo is Italian, but only one Italian is Luca Di Montezemolo.

Your orignal post was crass and insulting.

However, since you have apologised and have pointed out that your statement was not meant in such a way (hadn't seen it earlier, for which I am to blame) then I too apologise.

Sadly, for another member of this forum who thinks it's funny to use a denigrating word, there will be absolutely no apology, but to yourself there is.

Mea Culpa.

Thank you. Matter closed.

Does anyone remember F1?

[ShiftingGears]

Since when is causing offence racism?

When it insults a nation.



No, when it insults a race. Not a nation. I thought that was obvious...

[janneppi]

And that about summs it up here, thank you for participating.