Webber Vettel Hamilton [Footage removed by Formula one management *Merged*

[Gibbsy]

Turns out that a Japanese fan has done what the Japanese TV director could not and given us really high quality footage of the Webber,Vettel and Hamilton incident when behind the safety car.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8hWIfBkVQUk

Notice I refer to it as the Hamilton, Webber and Vettel incident, because this proves very clearly that LH was involved, and probably the culprit. He came almost to a complete stop while off the racing line, perhaps trying to force Webber to illegally over take. Experienced Webber isnt fooled by the dirty little trickster and takes the only course of action available to him, slowing dramatically, Vettel on the other hand is unable to deal with the situation, leaving Webber as the meat in a remarkably stupid sandwich.

[Dave B]

I don't see it the same way. Hamilton was possibly too close to the Safety Car, but rather than brake on the line and risk Webber driving into him, he moved right off the line over to the right of the track - in my opinion the sensible thing to do. Webber braked as one might expect, but Vettel was far too close to the Red Bull to take avoiding action.

I still think the incident was Vettel's fault.

[ShiftingGears]

Vettel should've been paying attention to both of them, thats how I saw it.

[Mark]

We aren't talking about a racing situation here, they were behind the safety car, and that means to my mind the usual rule of the road applies, i.e. if you run into the back of someone, it's your fault!

[Hawkmoon]

That one's purely on Vettel. If he was paying attention he could have easily taken to the middle of the track and avoided both Webber, who went left, and Hamilton who went to the far right of the track. You could have driven a freight train through the gap between the Aussie and the Brit.

[Flat.tyres]

That one's purely on Vettel. If he was paying attention he could have easily taken to the middle of the track and avoided both Webber, who went left, and Hamilton who went to the far right of the track. You could have driven a freight train through the gap between the Aussie and the Brit.

I agree with you. It looks like Lewis made a slight mistake by getting too close to the SC and moved off line which is the sensible thing to do.

SV's defense that he was car watching is no defence whatsoever and he should have been concentrating on what was in front of him and not to the side.

[Ranger]

Vettel cocked that one. Lewis slowed whilst offline though, and was at least 20m behind the safety car. Now you can't pass under safety car so Webber went to the left and slowed down - was nearly parallel with Hamilton. With a truckload of distance between the two, Vettel followed the spray on the left and that's how the impact happened.

Pity, it was so easily avoidable.

[Oli_M]

Webber's no rookie - he saw Hamilton getting too close to the Safety Car and then moving wide to slow down, so sensibly took to the other side of the track to stay clear, even if he had passed him on that corner he would just have let Hamilton go back through there wouldn't have been any thought of a penalty. From the look of the vid, Vettel was way too close to Webber.

[FIA]

Safety Car was to slow, Hamilton wasn't paying much attention and Vettel made a rookie mistake.

[yodasarmpit]

Well this footage finally puts paid to the question, one and only one person was at fault, Vettel.
Hamilton even moved out of the way as far to the right as possible and Webber to the left.

[ioan]

Lewis was to close to the SC and playing games with the following cars.
Webber was also to close to Lewis and thus had to brake hard too.
Vettel got distracted by Lewis and run into Webber's car.

They are all to blame for a part of what happened.
Why is that one (we all know which one) got away without any sort of punishment?
Maybe because he's leading the Championship? That's not enough an excuse for his dangerous driving not to be punished.

[airshifter]

Vettel was the only one at fault. Hamilton appears that he could have slowed and stayed behind the safety car, as did Webber.

[Bradley]

Hamilton comes to an almost complete halt, as if he had a problem.
I agree that it seems like he tries to force Webber to overtake him.

Knowing that it is not allowed to overtake, he must have known that he is forcing everybody to do the same. And he should understand that there is a real chance that he causes an incident. But that will be his last sorrow imo.

The fact that he accused Webber of the incident says enough about his motive.

[savage86]

Its hard to know what went though Lewis's head but im going to give it a try.
In the video he got partly up along side the pacecar and thought "ok im getting too close i dont want to overtake/run into it. Im going to give myself a gap.

He then pulls to the side of the track and slows right down to give himself a gap, a gap for him is in his best interests all round.

Webber wouldnt have been given a penalty for passing Lewis as long as he let Lewis back through. I just feel sorry for him and Vettel neither him or webber deserved what happend. Vettel is still only 20 years old and ive seen far worse rookie mistakes. For one when Alonso ignored the red flags at Brazil 2003 carried on going flat out and drove right into the debrit which was all over the track.

He could have hit a driver injured in his car, a marshal any number of horrible things could have happend. I say leave Vettel alone whats done is done, he wasnt exactly too arragont to edmit it wasnt his fault the poor guys was crying like a baby.
Im turning into chris crocker over this :P

[Sleeper]

I expect Lewis was trying to keep tempreture in his brakes, anyone that was paying attention would have seen drivers doing this several times behind the saftey car, i.e. getting off line and slaming on the brakes, I know I did. Vettel has alreay admited he was the culprit and this video prooves it.

[jens]

After seeing this video I can understand Vettel's explanations for his mistake. He thought Lewis had a problem and that was why he slowed down (and almost stopped on the circuit) and why he pulled off the racing line. So it means therefore Vettel expected Webber to keep going, paying no attention to the Australian (as he said that he was watching Hamilton at the same time).

[Garry Walker]

No fault for LH. No one would have said anything if Webbo had passed LH for a moment, but instead he chose to lock up. Vettel though made a mistake.

[markabilly]

Hamilton comes to an almost complete halt, as if he had a problem.
I agree that it seems like he tries to force Webber to overtake him.

Knowing that it is not allowed to overtake, he must have known that he is forcing everybody to do the same. And he should understand that there is a real chance that he causes an incident. But that will be his last sorrow imo.

The fact that he accused Webber of the incident says enough about his motive.
Right on---Great video!!!

[Corny]

Reminds me a bit of Monza 2000, yeah, think it was.. Where MS made a break test and the rookie Jenson Button crashed in a wall..
sorry if I'm speaking bull**** here, I was only 10 years old by then:P

[fandango]

I reckon Hamilton slowed so much because he was so off the line. He knew what happened to Alonso, and he is, let's remember, quite a good driver. So he was most likely trying to avoid major changes of speed and direction at that corner.

Webber was just unlucky, because Vettel got it all wrong. If Vettel was really looking at Hamilton with his brain in gear he would have realised that even he was nearly able to pass Hamilton, so where's the other guy...doh?

A mistake. They happen. Even to champions...

[markabilly]

I reckon Hamilton slowed so much because he was so off the line. He knew what happened to Alonso, and he is, let's remember, quite a good driver. So he was most likely trying to avoid major changes of speed and direction at that corner.

Webber was just unlucky, because Vettel got it all wrong. If Vettel was really looking at Hamilton with his brain in gear he would have realised that even he was nearly able to pass Hamilton, so where's the other guy...doh?

A mistake. They happen. Even to champions...
What is this an admission that you might dare to believe the Ham was wrong??

Shame for shame

[fandango]

What is this an admission that you might dare to believe the Ham was wrong??

Shame for shameI'm not picking up what you're throwing down, there. I'm Irish and I live in (what many call) Spain. I'd love to say he was wrong, but he bloody drove so well...

[Sleeper]

Reminds me a bit of Monza 2000, yeah, think it was.. Where MS made a break test and the rookie Jenson Button crashed in a wall..
sorry if I'm speaking bull**** here, I was only 10 years old by then:P
Monaco 2004 as well, with MS and Montoya in the tunnel.

[tinchote]

After seeing this video I can understand Vettel's explanations for his mistake. He thought Lewis had a problem and that was why he slowed down (and almost stopped on the circuit) and why he pulled off the racing line. So it means therefore Vettel expected Webber to keep going, paying no attention to the Australian (as he said that he was watching Hamilton at the same time).


Exactly :up:

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a rule putting a stop to all the starting-stopping during the safety car period.

[truefan72]

this is ridiculous,

a. Hamilton was nowhere near the incident it was purely between Webber and Vettel

b. If Vettel thought Webber slowed down becuase he thought Hamilton had a problem then it is Webber's fault. If you see a car running wide and slowing down, clearly waaay off the preferred line, and if you think they had a problem, then why would you stop?
You would keep driving and figure that the car had some problem

c. Each car has a clearly and brightly flashing red light behind them .They were not going at high speed and those lights are clear visible, therefore SV should have judged the distance better.

d. in looking at the video, it is clear to see other drivers going wide like LH so I assume other drivers were doing the same thing all race long an especially at the start INCIDENT FREE

...and finally
e. SV admitted his wrongdoing


It is beyond comical how those who don't like Hamilton blame him for this incident. Almost embarrasing I'd say

[ShiftingGears]

You would keep driving and figure that the car had some problem


You'd want to be sure first - I doubt he'd want to risk a drive-through for overtaking under SC.

[Roamy]

it was a classless move by LH to force a untidy situation behind him and Vettle was clueless due to severe inexperience. Actually LH probably screwed the deal up from lack of experience or he could have recalled MS and coultard and delibertly caused the incident. at and rate I would like to see how alonso got ****ed again

[Ari]

I don't see it the same way. Hamilton was possibly too close to the Safety Car, but rather than brake on the line and risk Webber driving into him, he moved right off the line over to the right of the track - in my opinion the sensible thing to do. Webber braked as one might expect, but Vettel was far too close to the Red Bull to take avoiding action.

I still think the incident was Vettel's fault.

Have a look at this and tell me if you still believe that. Hamilton was playing silly buggers and in silly conditions. If it were anyone else there would have been hell to pay, but because it's the golden boy he gets away with it.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3484/lewisys6.png

Posted by chook from markwebberforum.com

[Ari]

Hamilton comes to an almost complete halt, as if he had a problem.
I agree that it seems like he tries to force Webber to overtake him.

Knowing that it is not allowed to overtake, he must have known that he is forcing everybody to do the same. And he should understand that there is a real chance that he causes an incident. But that will be his last sorrow imo.

The fact that he accused Webber of the incident says enough about his motive.

Preety much how I see it. Would be different were situations reversed and Webber the one stopping and starting like that.

[Ari]

this is ridiculous,

a. Hamilton was nowhere near the incident it was purely between Webber and Vettel

b. If Vettel thought Webber slowed down becuase he thought Hamilton had a problem then it is Webber's fault. If you see a car running wide and slowing down, clearly waaay off the preferred line, and if you think they had a problem, then why would you stop?
You would keep driving and figure that the car had some problem

c. Each car has a clearly and brightly flashing red light behind them .They were not going at high speed and those lights are clear visible, therefore SV should have judged the distance better.

d. in looking at the video, it is clear to see other drivers going wide like LH so I assume other drivers were doing the same thing all race long an especially at the start INCIDENT FREE

...and finally
e. SV admitted his wrongdoing


It is beyond comical how those who don't like Hamilton blame him for this incident. Almost embarrasing I'd say

Except for the fact that Hamilton had been stopping and starting and swerving like that for some time during the race. This time Hamilton decided to speed up very quickly and then almost stop on a corner.... then pulls way off the racing line.

Vettel sees him go off the race line and come to a near stop and thinks that he must have a problem, no way Hamilton would be that stupid otherwise.

In doing so Vettel continue at normal pace and Webber stops due to Hamilton braking and bang there you have it.

Fact is, Hamilton needs to show a little more sensibility in such terrible weather conditions. I've never seen another driver do that, to that extent, at the front of the field before in my life and I've been watching F1 for many, many decades.

Those who have said Webber should have overtaken Hamilton are wrong. The rules state that you cannot overtake under safety car, perhaps if he had allowed Hamilton to take the lead again the stewards would not have given him a penalty, but perhaps they would have. It was not a risk he wanted to take, certainly not against their golden boy Hamilton!

It proves what the stewards thought of the situation when they opened an enquiry into the situation being Hamiltons fault and whether points or a race win would be deducted. Of course, nothing came of it... and probably there was nothing that ever would. Again, golden boy syndrome.

It disgusts me that people here cannot see that Hamilton has SOME responsibility in this accident, not all.... but some.

[Rollo]

Lewis was to close to the SC and playing games with the following cars.
Webber was also to close to Lewis and thus had to brake hard too.
Vettel got distracted by Lewis and run into Webber's car.

They are all to blame for a part of what happened.
Why is that one (we all know which one) got away without any sort of punishment?
Maybe because he's leading the Championship? That's not enough an excuse for his dangerous driving not to be punished.

If an accident happens two cars behind you it is hardly your fault. If Lewis was behind the Safety Car and has corrected because he was close, then the onus is for every car behind to do likewise.

It is Webber's Fault for following too close in the first place and Vettel's fault for running into the back of him. At no point does Lewis ever move in front of the safety car, which means on-track obligations are fulfilled to the letter.

Please show me a violation within the rules.

[Ari]

If an accident happens two cars behind you it is hardly your fault. If Lewis was behind the Safety Car and has corrected because he was close, then the onus is for every car behind to do likewise.
But what about is Lewis goes dramatically off the racing line and comes to an almost stop OFF the racing line? Does that have fault? And 'every' car behind him in those conditions? Are you kidding? Lewis slammed down the brakes in the middle of a corner and off the racing line.... how are drivers only a few back supposed to react in that time and even know what he's doing?


It is Webber's Fault for following too close in the first place and Vettel's fault for running into the back of him. At no point does Lewis ever move in front of the safety car, which means on-track obligations are fulfilled to the letter.
Lewis goes up next to the safety car and moves within inches of overtaking it. Is this REALLY a responsible drive in those conditions? NO, it's not. And Webber accelerated when Lewis did. He has to maintain a sensible distance behind the driver in front, which is what he intended to do.


Please show me a violation within the rules.
The rule book says Lewis needs to be within 5 car lengths of the safety car which he was NOT. But that shouldn't matter for the golden boy.

[Schultz]

Look at Ari's post Rollo. The rules clearly stipulate that the leader cannot be any further than five car lengths away from the safety and that the rest of the field must follow as tightly as possible. In this latest footage it is clear that Hamilton slowed quite dramatically for whatever reason I can't even imagine.

Now, when he did slow down he was clearly well over 5 car lengths from the safety car. The problem I have with this is that atleast from what Vettel has said, it seems that what Hamilton did was an extreme manoever that was unusual enough to steal Vettels attention and for him to assume he had broken down and that Webber would have continued past Hamilton. This is a massive call because for Vettel to have made that assumption it must have looked pretty clear to him that there was something wrong with Lewis' car.

So Vetell obviously made an error of judgement. But it was an error of judgement made because Hamilton had made a manoever that provoked two drivers to make snap judgements to avoid either a collission or the passing of the cra in front. In my opinion, Hamiltons braking was unnecessary and dangerous, and if I was him I would be counting my lucky stars that the race directors did not have a view of the incident like this Japanese lad has thankfully filmed for us.

Blame Game:

Vettel: 60%
Hamilton: 40%
Webber: 0%

[wmcot]

Exactly :up:

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a rule putting a stop to all the starting-stopping during the safety car period.


Now that would make sense! Can't a driver warm the brakes by applying a slight amount of brake and throttle at the same time? That would accomplish the same thing without all the starting and stopping. The cars looked like a slinky as they followed the safety car!

[Rollo]

Look at Ari's post Rollo. The rules clearly stipulate that the leader cannot be any further than five car lengths away from the safety and that the rest of the field must follow as tightly as possible.

The maximum distance that a car may be away from the safety car assuming that an F1 car is built to regulations is 24.25m. Based on the evidence presented, is this the case? The answer? I don't think that can accurately be said at all.

In the footage both Lewis and the safety car go out of shot. And I should point out that the picture provided is in fact a cut and paste job, so it's actual ability to be relied upon is virtually nil. The source is also probably open to bias given that it is markwebberforum.com

It severely looks like someone is trying to manufacture evidence post-haste to make a point.

[Ari]

The maximum distance that a car may be away from the safety car assuming that an F1 car is built to regulations is 24.25m. Based on the evidence presented, is this the case? The answer? I don't think that can accurately be said at all.
I disagree... however, that's just 'opinion' and really doesn't count for much.


In the footage both Lewis and the safety car go out of shot. And I should point out that the picture provided is in fact a cut and paste job, so it's actual ability to be relied upon is virtually nil. The source is also probably open to bias given that it is markwebberforum.com

It severely looks like someone is trying to manufacture evidence post-haste to make a point.

So tell me, is the below 'manufactured'?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash1.jpg
You can see in the pic above that Hamilton is within approx 2 car lengths of the safety car, if not less. You will also note that Webber is upto 8-10 car lengths away from Hamilton..... a preety reasonable distance really.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash2.jpg
In this image you can see Hamilton is on the other side of the corner, only 50 metres track away and is right up next to the safety car... about as close as he could be without overtaking. Note again the distance which Webber was behind him entering this corner.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash3.jpg
In the image above we can clearly see Lewis braking off to the right of screen. We can see he is way off the racing line and has slowed enough for Webber to make up some 6-8 car lengths in the space of a corner and on top of that the other 3 car lengths he made up on the safety car to be right up next to it!

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash4.jpg
In the above Lewis is STILL braking off the race line, and has now almost come to a complete stop. The safety car is now entirely out of screen and has rounded the corner whereas Lewis is almost stopped and pointing off the circuit. We can see how close Vettel is now to Webber and that Webber has started turning for the corner already.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash5.jpg
In this last image we can see Hamilton finally starting to turn left, not long before track runs out. We also see Vettel running into the back of Webber while (apparently) looking at Hamilton and wondering what's wrong... is there a mechanical error which has pointed him off circuit to a near stop? Webber of course has come to a near stop as well knowing the kind of bloke Hamilton is... and that there's no mechanical error, he's just playing games.

So....again, who's fault is it and where does the fault lye? I reckon Schultz assessment is preety darn close!

[leopard]

So Vetell obviously made an error of judgement. But it was an error of judgement made because Hamilton had made a manoever that provoked two drivers to make snap judgements to avoid either a collission or the passing of the cra in front. In my opinion, Hamiltons braking was unnecessary and dangerous, and if I was him I would be counting my lucky stars that the race directors did not have a view of the incident like this Japanese lad has thankfully filmed for us.

Blame Game:
Vettel: 60%
Hamilton: 40%
Webber: 0%
This wasn't the first Hamilton's maneuver that mostly he drives at the cost of other drivers. Webber and Vettel weren't the only drivers suffered from that sort of dirty maneuver.

During the one and two Mclaren at the front, I can't remember how many movement he has made slowing down his car and pushed Alonso in the brake, and the way restart the race it was obvious that he can do that to whomever without seeing that he is his own teammate.

In this accident could be Vettel's fault for the late anticipation on Webber's car, but for the sake of fairness Webber have contributed himself for not anticipating Hamilton's maneuver. Atop of it Hamilton's dirty maneuver was the prime cause of the accident.

so, I guess all three drivers have the same equal percentage on causing the accident.

Any onboard laps with Alonso video might help this out.

[leopard]

true, except sentencing Webber for free for ignoring someone should be in front during safety car, sounds a bit nepotism ;)

[Rollo]

You can see in the pic above that Hamilton is within approx 2 car lengths of the safety car, if not less. You will also note that Webber is upto 8-10 car lengths away from Hamilton..... a preety reasonable distance really.

Er, that would in fact be an illegal distance on the part of Webber. Rule 13.4 of the 2007 Sporting Regulations does in fact mention that all cars are to be 5 cars within lengths of each other. If your assessment is correct, then Webber was in an illegal position before the incident occured. Vettel followed him.

If you want to apply the rule to Hamilton then it should equally be applied to Webber, who was breaking the rule before the incident in question.


So....again, who's fault is it and where does the fault lye? I reckon Schultz assessment is preety darn close!

Webber must have been part way responsible for his own incident by virtue that he had been breaking the rule before the incident.

[harsha]

i don't think Webber has any blame for that incident....i think the incident was more of Vettel's fault

[ioan]

This wasn't the first Hamilton's maneuver that mostly he drives at the cost of other drivers. Webber and Vettel weren't the only drivers suffered from that sort of dirty maneuver.

During the one and two Mclaren at the front, I can't remember how many movement he has made slowing down his car and pushed Alonso in the brake, and the way restart the race it was obvious that he can do that to whomever without seeing that he is his own teammate.

In this accident could be Vettel's fault for the late anticipation on Webber's car, but for the sake of fairness Webber have contributed himself for not anticipating Hamilton's maneuver. Atop of it Hamilton's dirty maneuver was the prime cause of the accident.

so, I guess all three drivers have the same equal percentage on causing the accident.

Any onboard laps with Alonso video might help this out.

Exactly what I thought too.

[ioan]

The rules clearly stipulate that the leader cannot be any further than five car lengths away from the safety and that the rest of the field must follow as tightly as possible.

Finally someone posted it (I was to lazy to search it :D )! :up:
These are the rules and the rules were broken by Hamilton.

So why isn't he punished?
Does this have anything to do with that book about how a rookie driver wins the F1 WDC, keep in mind that the book was announced already a few month ago!

I can already see the headlines for promoting F1 after the Brazilian GP! Guess who will be the star?!

[SGWilko]

Now that would make sense! Can't a driver warm the brakes by applying a slight amount of brake and throttle at the same time? That would accomplish the same thing without all the starting and stopping. The cars looked like a slinky as they followed the safety car!

I may be completely wrong here, but on the ITV F1 footage during Q3 qualifying, on LH slow down lap we heard some radio footage between LH and his engineer, the engineer told him to be careful not to glaze the brake.

MB then chipped in after the radio transmission ended, and said that was making sure lewis did not accidentally 'ride the brake pedal'

So, I think, to do as you suggested is a well thought out idea, but will result in glazed brakes.

So they have to warm up the brakes by simulating as near to normal braking conditions as possible, i.e. braking at speed - and how do you achieve that behind the SC in the wet? make room for the boys behind by going off the racing line.

The 5 car lengths rule was no doubt written by some twit in a suit who has no concept of what it is like to drive an F1 car.........

Given that MW took a technicolour yawn in his helmet, was he really 100% fit to drive? He probably couldn't see through the chunks on his visor!!! :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Finally someone posted it (I was to lazy to search it :D )! :up:
These are the rules and the rules were broken by Hamilton.

So why isn't he punished?
Does this have anything to do with that book about how a rookie driver wins the F1 WDC, keep in mind that the book was announced already a few month ago!

I can already see the headlines for promoting F1 after the Brazilian GP! Guess who will be the star?!

Mate, you really are a card! ;)

[Ranger]

Given that MW took a technicolour yawn in his helmet, was he really 100% fit to drive? He probably couldn't see through the chunks on his visor!!! :laugh:
Heh... Considering before the second safety car he was lapping faster than vomit-less Hamilton, then what does that say about Hamilton? :p :

[ShiftingGears]

*deleted!*

[SGWilko]

Heh... Considering before the second safety car he was lapping faster than vomit-less Hamilton, then what does that say about Hamilton? :p :

That was meant as a little 'tongue in cheek' if you'll forgive the pun!!

[airshifter]

Er, that would in fact be an illegal distance on the part of Webber. Rule 13.4 of the 2007 Sporting Regulations does in fact mention that all cars are to be 5 cars within lengths of each other. If your assessment is correct, then Webber was in an illegal position before the incident occured. Vettel followed him.

If you want to apply the rule to Hamilton then it should equally be applied to Webber, who was breaking the rule before the incident in question.



Webber must have been part way responsible for his own incident by virtue that he had been breaking the rule before the incident.


Isn't it strange how people often want the rule to apply to only a single driver?

This rule has never been enforced that I recall. The only time it has really even come to light is if cars pass each other or collide, which is rare. The rule is poorly written, as they know every driver is trying to keep or put heat in the brakes.

Done properly, they could give more room for the cars to keep heat in the brakes, and have a signal to ensure they reform more closely for the actual restart.

[Rollo]

Not really, people are looking for every piddly excuse to deny Hamilton of his title. In general people often hate what they fear, and also hate success.
The other thing in conjunction with this is that it's morally acceptable to hate the English because the usual rules of "nationalism" and "racism" don't actually apply.

[SGWilko]

collide

Eh? When has that ever happened?

[SGWilko]

Not really, people are looking for every piddly excuse to deny Hamilton of his title. In general people often hate what they fear, and also hate success.
The other thing in conjunction with this is that it's morally acceptable to hate the English because the usual rules of "nationalism" and "racism" don't actually apply.

Indeed. Luca is on this bandwagon at the moment. But I guess only because your average Ferrari Championship win has been tainted by race fixing (Austria, Indianapolis etc), rule bending (Bargeboards , Flexi wings etc), whistle blowing (Michelin tyres, Renault MD) or generally not allowing their guys to race. ;)

[Dzeidzei]

The 5 car lengths rule was no doubt written by some twit in a suit who has no concept of what it is like to drive an F1 car.........


Must be the same twit that wrote the "dont use technology developed by other teams AND get caught" rule. Screw him!

[Ari]

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/1629/rb3rearcya4.jpg

[leopard]

Finally someone posted it (I was to lazy to search it :D )! :up:
These are the rules and the rules were broken by Hamilton.

So why isn't he punished?

He might not know the rules, and ignorance might immune against breaking the rules.

[leopard]

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/1629/rb3rearcya4.jpg

Vettel can't read it because the notice needs twist up at the node end ;)

[ioan]

He might not know the rules, and ignorance might immune against breaking the rules.

Yeah that must be what the stewards thought too : "let's not punish him, the poor rookie simply doesn't know the rules!"

[SGWilko]

Must be the same twit that wrote the "dont use technology developed by other teams AND get caught" rule. Screw him!

Nice to see you have a clear grasp of the situation. What I was getting at was; don't you think rules that directly relate to how the car is driven ought to be written in such a way that actually allows the cars to be driven safely. Can an F1 car be driven safely at racing speed, in the wet with cold unpredictable brakes?

[Dzeidzei]

Can an F1 car be driven safely at racing speed, in the wet with cold unpredictable brakes?

Why would you ask rhetorical questions?

The whole conspiracy - cheating drama is way past any decency or reason and people should get over it (note, Im not referring to your post). Its starting to affect every post on this forum. The facts regarding this Hamilton-Webber-Vettel incident are that LH probably made a small mistake (or at least didnt think it through), but drivers should keep their eyes at the car and the track in front of them. So Vettel f***ed up. Big deal, sheit happens.

If LH did that on purpose (and yes, I know youre a Lewis fan), that would make him a total asshole, wouldnt it?

And he´s not, right?

[Ranger]

Looks like Hamilton's booked a meeting with the stewards over his role in the crash - perhaps with that youtube video as evidence/information that is alluded to here:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62978

Stewards investigating Hamilton's driving

By Jonathan Noble Thursday, October 4th 2007, 09:42 GMT


World championship leader Lewis Hamilton is currently under investigation by the race stewards at the Chinese Grand Prix over his behaviour behind the safety car in Fuji last weekend, autosport.com can reveal.

It is understood that the FIA has been supplied with new information about Hamilton's driving behind the second safety car phase - where it is suggested that he contributed to the collision between Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel.

It is not clear what this new evidence may be, but it could relate to video footage suggesting that Hamilton was braking and accelerating excessively.

An FIA spokesman confirmed that the stewards were looking into the matter.

"New evidence has been brought to the stewards attention and they are currently investigating the matter," he said.

It is understood Hamilton has been asked to meet with the stewards tomorrow.

The Webber/Vettel accident was not caught on camera by Formula One's official coverage, but a Youtube video of the accident filmed from the grandstands has highlighted how Hamilton slowed down dramatically on the right of the track, forcing Webber to slow down and catch Vettel unaware.

Formula One's regulations dictate that the race leader must keep a standard distance behind the safety car until the lap before it is due to come into the pits.

Article 40.10 of the F1 Sporting Regulations states: "The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him. Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it."

With Vettel having already been handed a 10-place grid penalty in China for his part in the accident, it is thought that if the stewards believe Hamilton has done wrong then he could be punished in a similar fashion.

Red Bull Racing's Mark Webber said on Thursday that he believed Hamilton's behaviour had contributed to the accident.

"It definitely contributed to Sebastian hitting me up the back because he (Hamilton) wasn't doing what he was supposed to be doing, clearly," Webber told a news conference.

"He spoke in the drivers' meeting about how good a job he was going to do and he did the opposite. Still, we know for next time."

[Dave B]

Just heard the same on BBC News 24 :s

[BDunnell]

I'm not surprised, except about how long it's taken for the FIA and stewards to realise that he was driving over-aggressively behind the safety car.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm glad it's being investigated - although I don't see Hamilton getting penalised out of this.

[Ranger]

I'm not surprised, except about how long it's taken for the FIA and stewards to realise that he was driving over-aggressively behind the safety car.
Does that mean Marca is reliable for once?? :p :

[SGWilko]

Looks like Hamilton's booked a meeting with the stewards over his role in the crash - perhaps with that youtube video as evidence/information that is alluded to here:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62978

Can I just throw this in for good measure, to balance things a little, without being rediculed (possibly by the common soldiery?!)



"Lewis had quite a lot of pressure during those safety car periods," said Whitmarsh. "He had a driver behind who wasn't fighting for the championship and might have fancied his chances at a win. Certainly Mark [Webber] looked like he fancied his chances of having a go, and you can imagine if you were Lewis, that's a bit of pressure. Ironically of course whilst Lewis was concerned about having Mark up his tail, that Webber should get a teammate up his backside!

"One of the challenges that you had was tyre pressures and brake temperatures. We did alert the FIA that we think the cars are very close, and when you think the safety car is coming in you've got to be prepared, you've got to get some temperatures back into the brakes, put the pressures in, and that's very difficult. Your carbon brakes can glaze over as well, especially in these sorts of conditions. The reality is everyone was braking, and if you follow too close, you get the typical motorway incident."

[SGWilko]

Also,

if you drive on the motorway, what is that little ditty you should say to yourself to remind yourself of a safe distance....

'only a fool breaks the two second rule'

But not in the wet, it is recommended you need 4 times the safe distance. So, should F1 cars really adhere to the 5 car lengths rule in the wet, is it safe - you'd have to say experience shows 5 car lengths is not nearly enough......

[Ranger]

Also,

if you drive on the motorway, what is that little ditty you should say to yourself to remind yourself of a safe distance....

'only a fool breaks the two second rule'

But not in the wet, it is recommended you need 4 times the safe distance. So, should F1 cars really adhere to the 5 car lengths rule in the wet, is it safe - you'd have to say experience shows 5 car lengths is not nearly enough......

Webber was already quite a safe distance back when Hamilton threw on his brakes (nearly stopped) offline around the chicane. Considering that you can't pass under SC and Hamilton nearly stopped on the longest way around the corner (forcing others to slow down more), it's entirely within reason that he is being investigated.

[SGWilko]

The more of thet Youtube footage I see, the more my mind is made up.

Webber had sufficient distance from Hamilton. It's that Vettel was in Webbers spray that he could not see Webber slowing. Sure, Webber reacted to Hamilton, Vettel did not react to Webber because he could not see clearly enough.........

[jens]

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071004113445.shtml

Now Webber blames Hamilton, so it's getting more interesting. :p :

Hopefully FIA won't DQ Hamilton's win in Japan, but I'm quite indifferent to his possible 10-place-penalty for the Chinese GP.

[Ranger]

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071004113445.shtml

Now Webber blames Hamilton, so it's getting more interesting. :p :

Hopefully FIA won't DQ Hamilton's win in Japan, but I'm quite indifferent to his possible 10-place-penalty for the Chinese GP.

Hmm... I think "contributing to incident" and blaming are a bit different jens... Just a bit :p :

But you can rest assured that Hamilton won't be DQ'd from Japan. Accusations of dangerous driving ultimately haven't lead to much (like a suspended ban that's never enforced). I doubt he'll get one of them but a 10-place penalty would suffice if he is guilty, because he was not too much less influential in that crash than Vettel was.

Having said that, I don't think he'll be penalised.

Here's Thursday press conference link (about the crash):
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071004132523.shtml

Q: (Ann Giuntini – L’Equipe) To Mark and Sebastian: without any desire to get into politics, would you say that Hamilton’s manoeuvres in the last race were not very far from being unfair or not under the agreement you generally have?
SV: In the end it was my fault for crashing into Mark’s car, so I’m not here to blame anybody but I think it’s clear that the rhythm was not there. In the end we are all sitting in the same boat. It’s raining, there is a safety car for a long time and it’s quite complicated to keep the temperatures in the brakes and avoid glazing them. But at that point I was just distracted, you could say. I was looking to the right and I was sure he (Hamilton) was retiring, there was no power anymore and yeah, all I can say is that by the time I looked back I was already in Mark’s rear end so… It’s not to blame anybody but for sure the reason was the rhythm was not there.

MW: I think he did a sh!t job behind the safety car. He did a sh!t job and that’s it.
He spoke in the drivers’ briefing about how good a job he was going to do and then he did the job the opposite way, so we know for next time, it’s no problem.

[Daniel]

I think Hamilton's a dangerous driver. His move at Monza was over-eager and why the hell is he doing what I can see in the video-caps?

As for Rollo's "look at the rule-book" argument. If Ralf Schumacher knocked Liuzzi unconscious while wearing a pink pair of lederhosen and made a burrito with him in and then ate him I bet there'd be some kind of penalty levied against him by the FIA. Just because it's not stated explicitly in the rulebook doesn't mean it's not wrong. This isn't tax law we're talking about Rollo ;)

Perhaps the rulebook wasn't written with people who are so singly driven to do whatever will give them most advantage in mind. If I drove like that on the motorway and caused two other cars to crash there'd be a certain percentage of blame given to me as well. You could simply blame Vettel 100% under the "expect the unexpected" rule if Hamilton did something strange for a good reason but it seems like he wanted to slow Weber down or try and cause some kind of kerfuffle.

Would we be discussing this event like this if someone had died or been seriously injured? The fact of the matter is there's no obvious reason why Hamilton did what he did and his actions directly caused an accident to take place. Take Hamilton's actions out of the picture and that accident wouldn't have happened.

[nightingalecars]

I may be completely wrong here, but on the ITV F1 footage during Q3 qualifying, on LH slow down lap we heard some radio footage between LH and his engineer, the engineer told him to be careful not to glaze the brake.

MB then chipped in after the radio transmission ended, and said that was making sure lewis did not accidentally 'ride the brake pedal'

So, I think, to do as you suggested is a well thought out idea, but will result in glazed brakes.

So they have to warm up the brakes by simulating as near to normal braking conditions as possible, i.e. braking at speed - and how do you achieve that behind the SC in the wet? make room for the boys behind by going off the racing line.

The 5 car lengths rule was no doubt written by some twit in a suit who has no concept of what it is like to drive an F1 car.........

Given that MW took a technicolour yawn in his helmet, was he really 100% fit to drive? He probably couldn't see through the chunks on his visor!!! :laugh:

I heard that too, Is it something to do with the ceramic brakes.
I'm trying to stop on the fence a little over the Hamilton thing it looks as though he got too close to the safty car and rather than slamming on the brakes went out wide to avoid it. If he had of anchored on would Webber have hit him and taken him out of the race? I think it is just a racing incident and if it wasn't the final rounds of the championship this wouldn't have been an issue at all. still if hamilton loses his points it means we are going to get a thrilling last 2 races :-)

[Daniel]

The more of thet Youtube footage I see, the more my mind is made up.

Webber had sufficient distance from Hamilton. It's that Vettel was in Webbers spray that he could not see Webber slowing. Sure, Webber reacted to Hamilton, Vettel did not react to Webber because he could not see clearly enough.........
Thing is. On the road if you know there's a corner coming up and you know that some drivers will be braking hard you'll hardly be right on their bumper will you? But when you're driving on a perfectly good bit of motorway you can drive a bit closer because you know what the driver's going to do. Only an idiot would say Vettel isn't at least partially to blame. But only an even greater less intelligent person would say that Hamilton caused the whole thing with his initial actions which there seems no proper explanation for.

[I am evil Homer]

"erratic driving" - of course it was it was pissing down with rain. I assume then that Massa and Kubica will also be investigated for "erratic driving" over the last lap, Kimi too for taking to the concrete.

The F1 joke continues to get less funny with every day.

[Ranger]

"erratic driving" - of course it was it was pissing down with rain. I assume then that Massa and Kubica will also be investigated for "erratic driving" over the last lap, Kimi too for taking to the concrete.

There's a difference. Racing is naturally dangerous. Driving behind the safety car is not.

Not to mention that none of those incidents resulted in avoidable collisions.

[seppefan]

"erratic driving" - of course it was it was pissing down with rain. I assume then that Massa and Kubica will also be investigated for "erratic driving" over the last lap, Kimi too for taking to the concrete.

The F1 joke continues to get less funny with every day.

Well said. This is a complete joke. If Hamilton is penalised then it is off to ChampCar for me and forget all the moseley / fia bs.

[SGWilko]

I think Hamilton's a dangerous driver. His move at Monza was over-eager and why the hell is he doing what I can see in the video-caps?

Oh, I thought that was an inspired move.


As for Rollo's "look at the rule-book" argument. If Ralf Schumacher knocked Liuzzi unconscious while wearing a pink pair of lederhosen and made a burrito with him in and then ate him I bet there'd be some kind of penalty levied against him by the FIA. Just because it's not stated explicitly in the rulebook doesn't mean it's not wrong. This isn't tax law we're talking about Rollo ;)

That's a bit far fetched don't you think. But I'll run with it, If Ralph is a cannibal, in a country known for its human consumption, that could have a different bearing on things. He might just have been peckish! ;)


Perhaps the rulebook wasn't written with people who are so singly driven to do whatever will give them most advantage in mind. If I drove like that on the motorway and caused two other cars to crash there'd be a certain percentage of blame given to me as well. You could simply blame Vettel 100% under the "expect the unexpected" rule if Hamilton did something strange for a good reason but it seems like he wanted to slow Weber down or try and cause some kind of kerfuffle.

When you drive on the motorway, if there is a crash, you don't get a safety car. But if you did, as you have steel brakes and road tyres, you don't have a potentially dangerous scenario where your brakes are cold and not working as they should, and your car will be dangerously closer to the ground because the tyre pressures are down.....


Would we be discussing this event like this if someone had died or been seriously injured? The fact of the matter is there's no obvious reason why Hamilton did what he did and his actions directly caused an accident to take place. Take Hamilton's actions out of the picture and that accident wouldn't have happened.

Wow - lets blame Michael for Ayrtons death shall we? Because he was hunting him down.......... but we all know why he crashed don't we - tyres had loss pressure due to safety car period..............

Perhaps Lewis was just keeping pressures and temperatures up.

If I hit someone up the rear in a road car, it is my fault, not the car in front. It is my responsibility to keep a safe distance - because your average road car driver is unpredictable. If you are an F1 driver, you KNOW the guy in front needs to keep temps and pressures up, because it is the same for you.

[Ranger]

Wow - lets blame Michael for Ayrtons death shall we? Because he was hunting him down.......... but we all know why he crashed don't we - tyres had loss pressure due to safety car period....
No, I don't think that was ever proven.



Perhaps Lewis was just keeping pressures and temperatures up.
Yes and perhaps dangerously so, which is why he is being investigated at the moment.

[markabilly]

What a joke---defending Hamilton to the bitter end, no matter how clear the video is that it is Hamilton all over the track

Webber is not slowing to avoid the SC, but to avoid passing LH who is so far over and virtually stopped.....

Hamilton should suffer the same penalty he put on Webber--DISQULAIFICATION--not a mere 10 position penalty for the next race

(Hahahah--probably happen too, because bernie keeps wanting a last lap crash at the last race to diced the WDC, good for revenue, you know)

[Daniel]

Oh, I thought that was an inspired move.



That's a bit far fetched don't you think. But I'll run with it, If Ralph is a cannibal, in a country known for its human consumption, that could have a different bearing on things. He might just have been peckish! ;)



When you drive on the motorway, if there is a crash, you don't get a safety car. But if you did, as you have steel brakes and road tyres, you don't have a potentially dangerous scenario where your brakes are cold and not working as they should, and your car will be dangerously closer to the ground because the tyre pressures are down.....



Wow - lets blame Michael for Ayrtons death shall we? Because he was hunting him down.......... but we all know why he crashed don't we - tyres had loss pressure due to safety car period..............

Perhaps Lewis was just keeping pressures and temperatures up.

If I hit someone up the rear in a road car, it is my fault, not the car in front. It is my responsibility to keep a safe distance - because your average road car driver is unpredictable. If you are an F1 driver, you KNOW the guy in front needs to keep temps and pressures up, because it is the same for you.

Point 1 Yeah? And some believe Nelson Mandela was a great guy who merely wanted peace. I say he was the leader of a militant group who was involved in terrorist attacks. One man's god is another man's devil.

Point 2. The rules didn't state anything about not allowing Ralph to be a cannibal while wearing pink lederhosen so surely this would be legal?

Point 3 Why would Webber who's an experienced driver be blaming Hamilton at least in part if it was just simply Vetel's fault?

Point 4 Only Ayrton was in control (or not in control :mark: ) of that car and the surroundings. By nature a car behind can't really have any effect on your car without touching it. So lets not be absurd.

Point 5 Perhaps he was but when it's raining and you're behind a safety car and everyone's bunched up you should be PREDICTABLE. You're a professional for gods sake

[BDunnell]

"erratic driving" - of course it was it was pissing down with rain. I assume then that Massa and Kubica will also be investigated for "erratic driving" over the last lap, Kimi too for taking to the concrete.

The F1 joke continues to get less funny with every day.

I do believe that there have been some very over-zealous penalties, but I also feel that a line needs to be drawn somewhere. My first thought when I saw Hamilton's driving when the first safety car (the one behind which the race started) was about to pull in was that he was going too far.

[Ranger]

My first thought when I saw Hamilton's driving when the first safety car (the one behind which the race started) was about to pull in was that he was going too far.
I agree. For 17 laps, the Safety car had the field consistently spread, just for Hamilton to dangerously close it back up again within half a lap, nearly backing Alonso into him several times. I was yelling at the TV at that point because I could just smell an accident coming with driving like that, in conditions like that.

[seppefan]

Seems that Webber was up Hamiltons backside forcing Hamilton to slow more that usual to get a gap to then heat his brakes...anyway Webber was behind so it is his responsibilty and he first blamed Vettel and now Hamiton...

[SGWilko]

Point 1 Yeah? And some believe Nelson Mandela was a great guy who merely wanted peace. I say he was the leader of a militant group who was involved in terrorist attacks. One man's god is another man's devil.


What on earth has Nelson Mandella got to do with it? Are you suggesting it was his fault? ;)

[555-04Q2]

Vettel is the one at fault. He either had a brain fade moment (we all have them occasionally) or he could'nt see that Webber had slowed down so much.

[ShiftingGears]

I think Hamilton's a dangerous driver. His move at Monza was over-eager.

Well he made a clean pass, and made the corner from a long way back without overshooting it after braking from over 300kmh. I saw that pass as brilliant, not overeager at all. If he cocked it up, maybe. He didn't.


Seems that Webber was up Hamiltons backside forcing Hamilton to slow more that usual to get a gap to then heat his brakes...anyway Webber was behind so it is his responsibilty and he first blamed Vettel and now Hamiton...

Wait, so you're blaming Webber for not overtaking Hamilton when he braked suddenly, resulting in Vettel running into him? :\
It was most irritating in the first safety car period when you had Allen yelling "BRILLIANT GAMESMANSHIP BY LEWIS HAMILTON!!!" when he blocked Alonso and nearly stopped.

Also unusual to see a driver swear in a press conference!

[Daniel]

Well he made a clean pass, and made the corner from a long way back without overshooting it after braking from over 300kmh. I saw that pass as brilliant, not overeager at all. If he cocked it up, maybe. He didn't.



Wait, so you're blaming Webber for not overtaking Hamilton when he braked suddenly, resulting in Vettel running into him? :\
It was most irritating in the first safety car period when you had Allen yelling "BRILLIANT GAMESMANSHIP BY LEWIS HAMILTON!!!" when he blocked Alonso and nearly stopped.

Also unusual to see a driver swear in a press conference!
I wasn't talking about his pass on Raikkonen.

[tinchote]

Well he made a clean pass, and made the corner from a long way back without overshooting it after braking from over 300kmh. I saw that pass as brilliant, not overeager at all. If he cocked it up, maybe. He didn't.


That's because KR made an effort to avoid the crash (you can see his blocked tyres in the video). These moves may work a few times, but in the long term we'll see a lot of crashing out of them.

[Ranger]

Seems that Webber was up Hamiltons backside forcing Hamilton to slow more that usual to get a gap to then heat his brakes...anyway Webber was behind so it is his responsibilty and he first blamed Vettel and now Hamiton...

What's Webber's responsibility?

Not crashing into Hamilton? Check.
Changing lines when Hamilton slowed severely so as not to cause any possible crash? Check.
Not passing under SC? Check.

Pity the bloke behind him blew his responsibility for that. Anyway Vettel accepted the majority of the blame for the crash itself so I don't see how it is Webber's fault. Webber criticised Vettel for not paying due attention. Rightly so.

Now Webber has criticised Hamilton for his role in it (which the video shows he did have some role in), which is his questionable driving behind the SC.

When the lead driver slows, you slow, and when the guy behind you hits you, then that's who you're initially angry about. But in hindsight it can be seen that Hamilton's role was indeed part of it, as there was a questionable reason for what he did to the extent that he did, as shown by video footage.

[ShiftingGears]

I wasn't talking about his pass on Raikkonen.

On Massa, then?

Massa seems to have an inability to be passed without making contact ;)

[Daniel]

On Massa, then?

Massa seems to have an inability to be passed without making contact ;)
I can't eat a Vindaloo or Madras without crying. What does that have to do with HAMILTON doing stupid things? :confused:

[Daniel]

That's because KR made an effort to avoid the crash (you can see his blocked tyres in the video). These moves may work a few times, but in the long term we'll see a lot of crashing out of them.
Yes. People who are "driven" by the need to win will get away with it a few times but at the end of the day they'll come unstuck. Hamilton has made a few good passes so far but his luck will run out.

[ShiftingGears]

That's because KR made an effort to avoid the crash (you can see his blocked tyres in the video).


Yes but not before Hamilton was alongside him.

I agree that those kind of moves require extreme skill from both drivers, and as a result don't happen very often. I thought it was extremely well calculated on hamiltons part.

Back on topic...

[ShiftingGears]

I can't eat a Vindaloo or Madras without crying. What does that have to do with HAMILTON doing stupid things? :confused:

You brought it up, you tell me.

[Daniel]

You brought it up, you tell me.
Errrr. My not liking hot curry is about as relevant as your comment given that HAMILTON was overtaking Massa and not the other way around.

[markabilly]

What on earth has Nelson Mandella got to do with it? Are you suggesting it was his fault? ;)
Must have been who was driving the safety car....i thought it was elvis

[Daniel]

Must have been who was driving the safety car....i thought it was elvis
Rubbish. Elvis works for BBC Radio 2 :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

Errrr. My not liking hot curry is about as relevant as your comment given that HAMILTON was overtaking Massa and not the other way around.

Oh my comment is quite relevant. I saw nothing in Hamilton's pass on Massa to suggest it was over-eager, like you're suggesting.

[markabilly]

Article 40.10 of F1's Regulations reads: "The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him. Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it."

Not done at all by hamilton on a number of times, including this crash

If there is no penalty, it will be for political reasons of wanting to ensure Hamilton's WDC---if there is a penalty, it will be bernie's dream come true, assuming that the WDC can still be decided in the last race, with a Hamilton coming out WDC (of course!!)

[markabilly]

VIDEO NOW GONE

according to the website, due to copyright claims by F1 management,

:mad: :dozey:
\
Sort of like the President Kennedy shooting video.........huummm!!!

[Ranger]

Bernie will be long dead before he gets to use all his money, so I don't see why he is so vehement with this youtube/public broadcast thing. :\

[markabilly]

Bernie will be long dead before he gets to use all his money, so I don't see why he is so vehement with this youtube/public broadcast thing. :\
I wonder--was this a private tape made by a bystander/spectator, or part of what the Bernie crew failed to show us, then or now??

:confused:

[SGWilko]

Article 40.10 of F1's Regulations reads:

Regulations.....smegulations. I am beginning to think any regulation of the FIA is not entireley worth the medium it is transcribed upon.......

They'll be employing tape measures next, then a poor guy with a red flag to lead them all round. :p :

[Daniel]

Regulations.....smegulations. I am beginning to think any regulation of the FIA is not entireley worth the medium it is transcribed upon.......

They'll be employing tape measures next, then a poor guy with a red flag to lead them all round. :p :
Where do you live? I'm coming to steal your car. Laws schmaws!

[SGWilko]

Where do you live? I'm coming to steal your car. Laws schmaws!

I wouldn't bother, it's a crappy 2cv with more rust than paintwork.

Don't get me started - the laws in this country are useless anyway. If you did knick my motor, and I call the police, they'll only turn up a week later. And the rossers have no rights any more anyway. SO where is their incentive to bother.

In fact, have my car, where do you live, I'll deliver it....... ;)

[Daniel]

I'll be right over. My girlfriend would love a 2CV! (no really she's crazy and like's the things) ;)

[Hondo]

Now Hamilton is being investigated by the stewards for erratic driving behind the safety car during the Japanese Grand Prix which in turn led to every evil event that happened behind him.

This could result in Hamilton losing his points for the race.

[markabilly]

Now Hamilton is being investigated by the stewards for erratic driving behind the safety car during the Japanese Grand Prix which in turn led to every evil event that happened behind him.

This could result in Hamilton losing his points for the race.

"could" "should", but it will not--Bernie would have a calf, at least until he remebers his dreams of a last lap crash deciding the wdc---just like a knight's tale......

[trumperZ06]

:rolleyes: What are they investigating ???

What evidience... link please !!!

[Mintexmemory]

What could it possibly benefit him, unless its a shed load of Euros issued in Italy :mad:

:rolleyes: What are they investigating ???

What evidience... link please !!!

Autosport are reporting it (the link is in the Hamilton/webber/Vettel thread).

When the original post says "This could result in Hamilton losing his points for the race" I would be tempted to replace "could" with "will".

Why? Well, not for any Ferrari-biased reason, just the predictable realism that those in charge want the title to go to the wire.

[markabilly]

Autosport are reporting it (the link is in the Hamilton/webber/Vettel thread).

When the original post says "This could result in Hamilton losing his points for the race" I would be tempted to replace "could" with "will".

Why? Well, not for any Ferrari-biased reason, just the predictable realism that those in charge want the title to go to the wire.

probably per my comments in the other thread into which this thread will probably be merged

Sad thing is that f1 management has now removed the video of the crash.....just when I wanted to watch it again!!!!

[redson]

This could result in Hamilton losing his points for the race.
I don't think he will lose the points but maybe a 10 slots in the grid penalty would be more probable

[airshifter]

Eh? When has that ever happened?

At Monoca a couple years back. Montoya hit the back of Schumacher in the tunnel. After investigation the stewards placed the blame on Schumacher and Montoya got no penalty. The penalty for MS was the damage done to his car.


I can't think of any race I've seen in recent years where there wasn't more than a 5 car gap at some point. I also remember many cases where cars passed during formation laps or behind the safety car to avoid hitting those in front. Often the front row cars swap positions just leaving the line on the formation lap.

I can agree that Lewis was being aggressive about trying to keep heat in the tires and broke the rule. I simply don't agree that he is the one to blame for the accident, nor do I think he should be penalized for something that takes place on a regular basis.

If they make the rule stronger and enforce it, then they will get compliance. As it stands now they are just leaving open a loophole to pick and choose enforcement when they wish.

[SGWilko]

I wonder--was this a private tape made by a bystander/spectator, or part of what the Bernie crew failed to show us, then or now??

:confused:

Are the rules printed on the ticket when going to a race? Do they govern filming the race in any way?

[Daniel]

Are the rules printed on the ticket when going to a race? Do they govern filming the race in any way?
As tabarded media at an FIA event the media company legally own the rights to your material if they want it :mark: I do actually think a similar rules applies to spectators.

[Roamy]

Hamilton will be disq'd from the Japan race. His behavior behind the pace car was outside the rules. Sorry Hammies but rules are rules!!

[BDunnell]

While I agree that what he did looked dodgy, I must say that looking into it this long after the race does nothing for the credibility of the stewards and the FIA.

[BDunnell]

I can agree that Lewis was being aggressive about trying to keep heat in the tires and broke the rule. I simply don't agree that he is the one to blame for the accident, nor do I think he should be penalized for something that takes place on a regular basis.

It also seems a little unfair that those responsible for checking these rules thought nothing of what he was doing when he was doing it.

[nightingalecars]

While I agree that what he did looked dodgy, I must say that looking into it this long after the race does nothing for the credibility of the stewards and the FIA.

Have you not read the new rules. 1st you race your car and get the win or podium. then a week later you get investigated by the stewards for the win or the podium the 1 month later your team gets investigated. eventually 3 years down the road someone will decide who wins the chamionship ;) . That's my sarcastic rant over!! I totally agree with what you said the FIA and the stewards have lost most of the credibility they had. Surely if they had any incling of a problem with webber hamilton and vettel they should have looked into it straight after the race. This is getting ridiculous now when you can win a race and have it taken away from you weeks later :confused:

[markabilly]

It also seems a little unfair that those responsible for checking these rules thought nothing of what he was doing when he was doing it.

Excuse me, but i am not sure they were in a postion to watch it all that well with the spray and such, and if they had watched what I saw on the tellee, they would have said that Hamilton was being a bit of a brat perhaps...but that is all (which is pretty much what I thought as well, or I would have started the same stench over this as I did the poor pit strategy on the FA stop)--but when I saw the u-tube tape, well now.....

And it may well be that they were doing their best NOT to notice, after all , "all things considered" :rolleyes:

Indeed, if the tape on "you tube" had not appeared, and gradually spread around the world with what it showed, the whole thing by now would have been totally forgotten, SV would have done his penalty....Webber or anyone else would have been labelled 'whiners', or Alonso lovers, and off we go!

Unfortunately for the FIA, they just can not ignore it anymore....just like the other stuff that they would have preffered to ignore :vader:

[ioan]

Well said. This is a complete joke. If Hamilton is penalised then it is off to ChampCar for me and forget all the moseley / fia bs.

Now now, he won't be punished, uncle Bernie will see to that.
You're, naturally, still free to go to ChampCar if you like it more.

[trumperZ06]

Autosport are reporting it (the link is in the Hamilton/webber/Vettel thread).

When the original post says "This could result in Hamilton losing his points for the race" I would be tempted to replace "could" with "will".

Why? Well, not for any Ferrari-biased reason, just the predictable realism that those in charge want the title to go to the wire.

:D Thanks !!!

I found the article and also a copy of the video.

;) The video shows LH closing too quickly on the pace car... entering the corner, LH pulls over to the outside and slows down (avoiding passing the pace car)... then LH swings out wider... still slowing (probably less traction & possible marbles out there), Webber ducks down inside... also slowing... Vettel follows Webber's roostertail and... BANG !!!

:rolleyes: Looks like simple driver error... Vettel following to close as Mark says !!!

Why U Tube was forced to take down a private video (a fan took video from the stands)... no explaination !!!

If any additional penalties are handed out....

well... draw your own conclusions !!!

:s mokin:

[markabilly]

:D Thanks !!!

I found the article and also a copy of the video.

;) The video shows LH closing too quickly on the pace car... entering the corner, LH pulls over to the outside and slows down (avoiding passing the pace car)... then LH swings out wider... still slowing (probably less traction & possible marbles out there), Webber ducks down inside... also slowing... Vettel follows Webber's roostertail and... BANG !!!

:rolleyes: Looks like simple driver error... Vettel following to close as Mark says !!!

Why U Tube was forced to take down a private video (a fan took video from the stands)... no explaination !!!

If any additional penalties are handed out....

well... draw your own conclusions !!!

:s mokin:

Where, pray tell, is the video now to be seen?

Cant find it on youtube as they say f1 management and copyright, etc insisted
thanks

[janneppi]

Fixed the title to match Bernards wishes. ;)

[ioan]

Regulations.....smegulations. I am beginning to think any regulation of the FIA is not entireley worth the medium it is transcribed upon.......


Is it that because the one that is being investigated is Hamilton? No, it sure can't be... :rolleyes:

[trumperZ06]

Where, pray tell, is the video now to be seen?

Cant find it on youtube as they say f1 management and copyright, etc insisted
thanks

:D I found it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= QJunfxRm4

try looking it up @ http://www.paddocktalk.com

:s mokin:

[BDunnell]

Is it that because the one that is being investigated is Hamilton? No, it sure can't be... :rolleyes:

You really do believe that everyone who voices the opinion that any aspect of the investigation is unfair is as biased towards Hamilton or McLaren as you are towards Ferrari, don't you? Well, for what seems like the millionth time, they are not. You ought to consider this.

[Hondo]

I look at it this way. Luca Montezemolo swears up and down Hamilton is driving a Ferrari and Ferrari drivers are known not only for this kind of thing, but even coming to a complete stop on the racetrack. With that in mind, the other drivers should have been more cautious. However, if the stewards decide to strip Ferrari of their points for the Japanese Grand Prix and even bump them back 10 places for the Chinese Grand Prix, I can certainly understand why.

[BDunnell]

I look at it this way. Luca Montezemolo swears up and down Hamilton is driving a Ferrari and Ferrari drivers are known not only for this kind of thing, but even coming to a complete stop on the racetrack. With that in mind, the other drivers should have been more cautious. However, if the stewards decide to strip Ferrari of their points for the Japanese Grand Prix and even bump them back 10 places for the Chinese Grand Prix, I can certainly understand why.

How dare you make fun of the Party and its glorious supreme leader! ;)

[Daniel]

How dare you make fun of the Party and its glorious supreme leader! ;)
Now now :p don't liken this whole Ferrari thing to a religion now ;) :p

[markabilly]

:D I found it here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=) QJunfxRm4

try looking it up @ www.paddocktalk.com (http://www.paddocktalk.com)

:s mokin:
Still no find

Guess it will pop up again

The guy who took this really deserves some credit......

[BDunnell]

Now now :p don't liken this whole Ferrari thing to a religion now ;) :p

:laugh:

Ferrari fans need not worry. If it all turns ugly, there are arrangements to spirit Luca di Montezemolo and Jean Todt away from the top of a large building by helicopter.

[rohanweb]

I thought drivers who follow a car should keep the distance and expect the driver in front to manouvere or brake!/...

this is what I have learned from the highway code.

in such conditions seeing followingup drivers to keep a good gap, but they were all like wanted to overtake and push the people in front.. I think its both to do with greedy Vettel & webber's mistakes.

donkeys live for another day!!!

so for Vettel so close to the webbers tail end and what nonsense this is to do with Lewis hamilton. he has the right to lead the traffic the way he wants as a pole man.. its simple as that..

another 'trying' by ferrari people to rubbish LH's WDC chances i think..

[markabilly]

After having seen the tape before it was removed, my opinion changed...

because if SV deserved a penalty for seeing LH go off to the side, slow, making SV think that he is just slowing or stopping out of race, now what should I (sv) do--should I pass him, risk penalty or what, and then bam the collsion because Webber has also slowed in response (at a point on the track where slowing would not be warranted), then so be it. All happening in seconds...but the real key fact is that the safety car is out, meaning everyone needs to slow down drive safe, and no racing BS is allowed, no sudden shot into or out of pits........

Hamilton made a decision to put himself on the outside and slow drastically, violating the rules, knowing potential chaos may give him an advantage on the restart, destroy the rythym of the field, then Hamilton deserves the more harsher penalty, because SV only made a mistake, but SV was NOT trying to create an advantage by crashing into Webber, whereas Hamilton was deliberately violating the rules for his own advantage while the safety car was out

If MS deserved the penalty at Monaco for far less, where no one was crashing...and there was no safety car, then LH deserves an even harsher penalty.

Otherwise, it sends a signal that such is OK, esp. where lives are at stake, including the lives of safety workers, when the safety car is on the track. Indeed, if this had been a green light incident, I think that SV would never have been penalized, but when the safety car is out, that is another whole ballgame. :mad:

[jens]

I have started to worry. Maybe FIA indeed will do anything to close up the championship and take that win away from Lewis. :rolleyes:

Maybe they'll make the decision after the Chinese Grand Prix and decide, whether to take points away from him (or how many of them) to make it a close finale...

After 2000 Austrian Grand Prix Häkkinen kept his points and McLaren's WCC points were taken away and Bernie's words were exactly like that: "This solution is the best one to keep the title battle tight in both championships."

[Hondo]

I would put it down as a racing incident in horrible weather. I think the only reason Vettel got a penalty is because he was honest (dumb) enough to state that he wasn't even paying any attention to Webber and when he looked back at Webber, it was too late. When you make a statement to that effect, the stewards pretty much have to do something.

[ioan]

I would put it down as a racing incident in horrible weather. I think the only reason Vettel got a penalty is because he was honest (dumb) enough to state that he wasn't even paying any attention to Webber and when he looked back at Webber, it was too late. When you make a statement to that effect, the stewards pretty much have to do something.

There was no racing going on at that moment, and this is what makes Hamilton's move to be questioned.

[Harm Kuijpers]

It's a racing incident, what Hamilton did is common in F1, how many times have we seen the lead car slow right down jsut before a restart? Vettel should've paid more attention. And even IF FIA decide to punish LH, they should give him a time penalty, like they did with Liuzzi, NOT disqualify him. Looks like Heikki may win his first GP ;)

[BDunnell]

After having seen the tape before it was removed, my opinion changed...

because if SV deserved a penalty for seeing LH go off to the side, slow, making SV think that he is just slowing or stopping out of race, now what should I (sv) do--should I pass him, risk penalty or what, and then bam the collsion because Webber has also slowed in response (at a point on the track where slowing would not be warranted), then so be it. All happening in seconds...but the real key fact is that the safety car is out, meaning everyone needs to slow down drive safe, and no racing BS is allowed, no sudden shot into or out of pits........

Hamilton made a decision to put himself on the outside and slow drastically, violating the rules, knowing potential chaos may give him an advantage on the restart, destroy the rythym of the field, then Hamilton deserves the more harsher penalty, because SV only made a mistake, but SV was NOT trying to create an advantage by crashing into Webber, whereas Hamilton was deliberately violating the rules for his own advantage while the safety car was out

If MS deserved the penalty at Monaco for far less, where no one was crashing...and there was no safety car, then LH deserves an even harsher penalty.

Otherwise, it sends a signal that such is OK, esp. where lives are at stake, including the lives of safety workers, when the safety car is on the track. Indeed, if this had been a green light incident, I think that SV would never have been penalized, but when the safety car is out, that is another whole ballgame. :mad:

This is partly in response to something you posted on another thread, but I agree with you regarding most of that. Why the FIA and stewards couldn't see it at the time, I have no idea. Equally, no-one seems to be mentioning Hamilton's driving on the lap when the first safety car went in, which looked just as hazardous.

[Pack Rat]

Having been on both ends of similar situations on the track, I'd say Hamilton must be penalized. When you're in the car on track level, especially following the leader, it is much more difficult to react compared how it appears from the grandstand video. Sure, Vettel should have been further back and more aware, but visibility was difficult, again especially at track level. Other than running out of gas, Hamilton should never slow down and pull to the side like he did. He's the frickin' leader for goodness sakes. He bears responsibility for setting the tone. If it were some Spyker or Aguri near the back of the field, then I'd say it was a racing incident.

[BDunnell]

It's a racing incident, what Hamilton did is common in F1, how many times have we seen the lead car slow right down jsut before a restart? Vettel should've paid more attention. And even IF FIA decide to punish LH, they should give him a time penalty, like they did with Liuzzi, NOT disqualify him. Looks like Heikki may win his first GP ;)

To me, at least, he was pushing it beyond anything I've ever seen before under a safety car.

[Narr]

This is getting dumb and will spoil the end to what has turned out to be a disappointing season for race fans but great for the lawyers.

No penalty should be forthcoming for LH but if STR want to appeal Vettel's that's up to them.

[markabilly]

I would put it down as a racing incident in horrible weather. I think the only reason Vettel got a penalty is because he was honest (dumb) enough to state that he wasn't even paying any attention to Webber and when he looked back at Webber, it was too late. When you make a statement to that effect, the stewards pretty much have to do something.


Might well agree, except it was NOT a racing incident, it was during a caution, and if Hamilton had not done what he did, then SV would have had nothing to look at. The purpose can be argued with merit that it was done to create potential problems such as what happenned, during a caution while the SC was out.

Kubica caught a penalty for a far less crazy move while the race was on under green

Besides, this was at the apex where you expect some acceleration and not a sudden slam on the brakes...all this prit prat over safe distances behind, well just start up from an intersection behind a car that suddenly slams on the brakes after a few feet...if you do not hit them, that is great reaction time and concentration on the car in front, and a failure to keep a careful lookout all aronund as for cars that may come crashing through their red light ( I learned this little ditty when I took drivers ed;

here lies mr. Right
he had the green light
so he did not look left nor right
here lies mr. Right
dead, but right


After having seen the tape before it was removed, my opinion changed...

because if SV deserved a penalty for seeing LH go off to the side, slow, making SV think that he is just slowing or stopping out of race, now what should I (sv) do--should I pass him, risk penalty or what, and then bam the collsion because Webber has also slowed in response (at a point on the track where slowing would not be warranted), then so be it. All happening in seconds...but the real key fact is that the safety car is out, meaning everyone needs to slow down drive safe, and no racing BS is allowed, no sudden shot into or out of pits........

Hamilton made a decision to put himself on the outside and slow drastically, violating the rules, knowing potential chaos may give him an advantage on the restart, destroy the rythym of the field, then Hamilton deserves the more harsher penalty, because SV only made a mistake, but SV was NOT trying to create an advantage by crashing into Webber, whereas Hamilton was deliberately violating the rules for his own advantage while the safety car was out

If MS deserved the penalty at Monaco for far less, where no one was crashing...and there was no safety car, then LH deserves an even harsher penalty.

Otherwise, it sends a signal that such is OK, esp. where lives are at stake, including the lives of safety workers, when the safety car is on the track. Indeed, if this had been a green light incident, I think that SV would never have been penalized, but when the safety car is out, that is another whole ballgame. :mad:

[ioan]

This is getting dumb and will spoil the end to what has turned out to be a disappointing season for race fans but great for the lawyers.


No, it will make it even more exciting and that's what all was about the whole frigging season, make it interesting no matter what means are needed.
BE managed to keep the money flowing even after MS, the most polarizing driver, retired! ;)

[Easy Drifter]

Every series that uses safety/pace cars has had incidents while they are out even before a race is first started. Just watch CC.
Drivers being drivers will push the limits of the rules regarding conduct until the riot act is read or as in this case something happens.
The antics behind the safety car have been getting more obvious every time it has been used in the last few years. Apparently the riot act wasn't read and the inevitable happened. This time it was at the front of the field but it could easily have happened further back.
There was a certain amount of fault from all 3 but Mark was probably the most blameless.
The problem of the brakes glazing does not help matters.

[trumperZ06]

Having been on both ends of similar situations on the track, I'd say Hamilton must be penalized. When you're in the car on track level, especially following the leader, it is much more difficult to react compared how it appears from the grandstand video. Sure, Vettel should have been further back and more aware, but visibility was difficult, again especially at track level. Other than running out of gas, Hamilton should never slow down and pull to the side like he did. He's the frickin' leader for goodness sakes. He bears responsibility for setting the tone. If it were some Spyker or Aguri near the back of the field, then I'd say it was a racing incident.

;) Hhmmm... try looking at the Video again !!!

LH seems to be "over-taking" the pace car (which was slowing down) just before... "corner entry".

At corner entry the pace car drives to the left... on line, LH is braking and pulls to the right in order to avoid bumping the pace car. LH continues to the right which is "off-line"... so is likely to be "traction limited" as well as possibly having debis (marbles).

The video shows NO EVIDIENCE of LH doing a thing wrong... other than carrying a bit too much speed going into the corner... which likely was amplified by the pace car slowing down.

:s mokin:

PS: Pack Rat... If you've raced in the rain... you also know the "line" is NOT always... the best way to go... but that's another subject!!!

[markabilly]

;) Hhmmm... try looking at the Video again !!!

LH seems to be "over-taking" the pace car (which was slowing down) just before... "corner entry".

At corner entry the pace car drives to the left... on line, LH is braking and pulls to the right in order to avoid bumping the pace car. LH continues to the right which is "off-line"... so is likely to be "traction limited" as well as possibly having debis (marbles).

The video shows NO EVIDIENCE of LH doing a thing wrong... other than carrying a bit too much speed going into the corner... which likely was amplified by the pace car slowing down.

:s mokin:

PS: Pack Rat... If you've raced in the rain... you also know the "line" is NOT always... the best way to go... but that's another subject!!!


Well the words right out of your mouth about "too much speed" should be more than enough-----and what else would you expect upon entry into a corner?

Slowing down---duh

Then after not wrecking the SC (as you describe it "to avoid bumping the safety car" after going in too hot) LH moves over, and while to the left, basically almost stops....

Sorry but it is too fast in and too slow out...while that is a great move to throw the field off....it is very likely to cause wrecks...and surprise that it is what it did (and if Vettel had not been distracted by what hamilton was doing.......then the argument that it is all SV's fault for looking at hamilton is abit meaningless because he would have had nothing to look at, and Webber would have had no reason to slow down..and there would have been no wreck)

[Bagwan]

Sorry but it is too fast in and too slow out...while that is a great move to throw the field off....it is very likely to cause wrecks...and surprise that it is what it did (and if Vettel had not been distracted by what hamilton was doing.......then the argument that it is all SV's fault for looking at hamilton is abit meaningless because he would have had nothing to look at, and Webber would have had no reason to slow down..and there would have been no wreck)

Add to that , Hamilton could see the safety car slowing and all else had no sight in the mist on the way in too hot .
Lewis moves right , and Webber gets sight of the pace car as he comes along side of Lewis into the corner .
All the while , the guy with no sight at all , follows Mark in at a sustainable pace , and finds the leader beside him and a misty red light in front , stopped on the track .

He was rightly confused at what he found at the corner .
Vettel was rather diplomatic in his choice of wording , but alluded to Hamilton's erratic behavior in his "rhythm" comment .

If it was Mark who asked for an inquiry , then perhaps he has seen the video , too . Is he the prez of the GPDA ?

[Bradley]

After having seen the tape before it was removed, my opinion changed...

Hamilton made a decision to put himself on the outside and slow drastically, violating the rules, knowing potential chaos may give him an advantage on the restart, destroy the rythym of the field, then Hamilton deserves the more harsher penalty, because SV only made a mistake, but SV was NOT trying to create an advantage by crashing into Webber, whereas Hamilton was deliberately violating the rules for his own advantage while the safety car was out

If MS deserved the penalty at Monaco for far less, where no one was crashing...and there was no safety car, then LH deserves an even harsher penalty.


Perfect summary. I'm glad to find out that Hamilton is finally under investigation. I HOPE he gets penalized, and he needs to be penalised MORE THEN VETTEL, so maybe in his future carreer he will not only talk as if he was a respectfull driver, but also behave as one on the track.

[trumperZ06]

Well the words right out of your mouth about "too much speed" should be more than enough-----and what else would you expect upon entry into a corner?

Slowing down---duh

Then after not wrecking the SC (as you describe it "to avoid bumping the safety car" after going in too hot) LH moves over, and while to the left, basically almost stops....

Sorry but it is too fast in and too slow out...while that is a great move to throw the field off....it is very likely to cause wrecks...and surprise that it is what it did (and if Vettel had not been distracted by what hamilton was doing.......then the argument that it is all SV's fault for looking at hamilton is abit meaningless because he would have had nothing to look at, and Webber would have had no reason to slow down..and there would have been no wreck)

:p : BRUHAAAHAAAA... get your Butt off of a chair and jump into an open wheeled race car...

then pull out of the pits onto a track... following a much much slower pace car, and circle around an extremely wet course for a lap or two, trying different lines.... searching for traction while avoiding running water. Oh, and disregard the blowing rain pelting you... while doing so.

Meanwhile, the safety car... is also "searching for traction" and not following a specific line or carrying a specific speed !!!

In extremely wet conditions...

It's not nearly as simple as you seem to believe, and the proper speed and line may vary... lap to lap (think running water across the track) !!!

:p : Oh... and you really should watch the video more closely... before commenting !!!

The corner was a right-hander coming off a straight... quickly followed by a left hand corner. LH turned in to the right of the pace car which went..."track left" after the first apex !!!

LH... STAYED track right... going around the OUTSIDE of the following left hand turn !!!

IMO... LH is not at fault... he did NOTHING.. that could be considered inproper.. under those conditions...

;) and I have some experience to base it on !!!

:s mokin:

[trumperZ06]

Add to that , Hamilton could see the safety car slowing and all else had no sight in the mist on the way in too hot .
Lewis moves right , and Webber gets sight of the pace car as he comes along side of Lewis into the corner .
All the while , the guy with no sight at all , follows Mark in at a sustainable pace , and finds the leader beside him and a misty red light in front , stopped on the track .

He was rightly confused at what he found at the corner .
Vettel was rather diplomatic in his choice of wording , but alluded to Hamilton's erratic behavior in his "rhythm" comment .

If it was Mark who asked for an inquiry , then perhaps he has seen the video , too . Is he the prez of the GPDA ?


:rolleyes: A wonderfully fictious tale there, Bagwan!

The video shows no such occurance !!!

:p : You... nor anyone else knows the difference in speed between any of the cars involved !!!

Nor do you know the intended line... the pace car wanted to take !!!

;) What we do know is... the pace car swings left at the apex (maybe plowing.. ie. a touch "understeer")... LH is over-taking, and to avoid bumping the pace car, LH stays track right... all the way through the next... left hand corner.

:D We also see that.. LH makes both turns, Webber makes the first turn easily... before being WACKED by Vettel... who plows into Webber's rear.

This is what's called... an AVOIDABLE accident !!!

[ioan]

Meanwhile, the safety car... is also "searching for traction" and not following a specific line or carrying a specific speed !!!


Sooner all later some smart a$s was going to blame it on the SC driver! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

;) What we do know is... the pace car swings left at the apex (maybe plowing.. ie. a touch "understeer")... LH is over-taking, and to avoid bumping the pace car, LH stays track right... all the way through the next... left hand corner.

And why was LH overtaking the SC?!

[Spyfunkr]

Hi all, sorry to jump into this without seeing the video and such an obvious controversy, but I have some questions.

Why would someone purposely brake to cause a disruption directly behind him without expecting to be a part of the distruption? (wrecked)

Is it possible that LH simply came into the turn behind the SC too hot, and was simply trying to avoid the ultimate sin of smashing into it? In other words, could it have just been a mistake?

Seems crazy to try such a risky purposeful manuever when you're failure costs much more than the possible gain against drivers not in the championship hunt.

Spy

[BDunnell]

Hi all, sorry to jump into this without seeing the video and such an obvious controversy, but I have some questions.

Why would someone purposely brake to cause a disruption directly behind him without expecting to be a part of the distruption? (wrecked)

Is it possible that LH simply came into the turn behind the SC too hot, and was simply trying to avoid the ultimate sin of smashing into it? In other words, could it have just been a mistake?

Seems crazy to try such a risky purposeful manuever when you're failure costs much more than the possible gain against drivers not in the championship hunt.

Spy

That could all very well be true, but as things stand at present, many believe it all has to be part of some big conspiracy.

However, Hamilton's driving behind the first safety car was, in my opinion, designed to delay those behind, specifically Alonso, by forcing them to go wide in order to avoid passing or ramming him.

[Pack Rat]

;)
PS: Pack Rat... If you've raced in the rain... you also know the "line" is NOT always... the best way to go... but that's another subject!!!

True about the line when racing in the wet. But I doubt that Hamilton was trying a new line with his maneuver. And he was decelerating beyond the point at which he should have been anyway, assuming he was trying an unconventional line.

[Bradley]

Why would someone purposely brake to cause a disruption directly behind him without expecting to be a part of the distruption? (wrecked)

Well, if someone had really such a bad intentions, he would first drive himself completely out off the way (like e.g. the complete outside of the corner), and then brake ...

[trumperZ06]

Sooner all later some smart a$s was going to blame it on the SC driver! :rolleyes:

:p : Hey Ioan,

Everyone... including the Pace Car... is "looking for traction",
when the track's that wet !!!

Also, the pace car's speed would vary... unless he was willing to be

Dog Slow !!!

:rolleyes: ANYONE who has EVER driven on the track in the rain...

would know that !!!

:s mokin:

;) Now go back to pretending... that you know about... conspiratorial plots against Ferrari !!!

[markabilly]

First you say


;) Hhmmm... try looking at the Video again !!!

LH seems to be "over-taking" the pace car (which was slowing down) just before... "corner entry".

At corner entry the pace car drives to the left... on line, LH is braking and pulls to the right in order to avoid bumping the pace car. LH continues to the right which is "off-line"... so is likely to be "traction limited" as well as possibly having debis (marbles).

The video shows NO EVIDIENCE of LH doing a thing wrong... other than carrying a bit too much speed going into the corner... which likely was amplified by the pace car slowing down.
quote]

As i already pointed out above, in too fast......

Then you say


:p : BRUHAAAHAAAA... get your Butt off of a chair and jump into an open wheeled race car...

then pull out of the pits onto a track... following a much much slower pace car, and circle around an extremely wet course for a lap or two, trying different lines.... searching for traction while avoiding running water. Oh, and disregard the blowing rain pelting you... while doing so.

Meanwhile, the safety car... is also "searching for traction" and not following a specific line or carrying a specific speed !!!

In extremely wet conditions...

It's not nearly as simple as you seem to believe, and the proper speed and line may vary... lap to lap (think running water across the track) !!!

:p : Oh... and you really should watch the video more closely... before commenting !!!

The corner was a right-hander coming off a straight... quickly followed by a left hand corner. LH turned in to the right of the pace car which went..."track left" after the first apex !!!

LH... STAYED track right... going around the OUTSIDE of the following left hand turn !!!

IMO... LH is not at fault... he did NOTHING.. that could be considered inproper.. under those conditions...

;) and I have some experience to base it on !!!

:s mokin:

But you are right about left and right-

but that was not the "line" that any other driver took--he took it to accelerate up and almost past and then stop--why? To throw off the other cars.

As you have already admitted "too fast" into the corner in the first quote, he is already asking for it-----then he is playing "the let us go very slowly out of the corner" game--I should know, and you should too, done it to others and had it done to me, but NEVER during a yellow behind a safety car--(why ?? because it is one thing to go at it with the green on, it is NOT okay to do it when the yellow is on.)


Thanks for the link to "paddock", as I managed to find the video again, and it is now clearer than ever.....

[trumperZ06]

True about the line when racing in the wet. But I doubt that Hamilton was trying a new line with his maneuver. And he was decelerating beyond the point at which he should have been anyway, assuming he was trying an unconventional line.

:D It looks to me... that the pace car was "understeering" just after corner apex, you can see the Mercedes pace car "plowing"... thereby taking a wider exit left than he wanted.

;) Now, I admit, this is conjecture... I think LH would have been well able to slow down... if he hadn't had to avoid the pace car going into that corner.

Regardless... in all my racing & instructing experience, given those track conditions... it's ALWAYS the driver's responsibility to avoid the car in front.

:s mokin:

[markabilly]

Well, if someone had really such a bad intentions, he would first drive himself completely out off the way (like e.g. the complete outside of the corner), and then brake ...

You mean just like hamilton did...so webber would not run into him him when Hamilton braked? :D

[markabilly]

:D It looks to me... that the pace car was "understeering" just after corner apex, you can see the Mercedes pace car "plowing"... thereby taking a wider exit left than he wanted.

;) Now, I admit, this is conjecture... I think LH would have been well able to slow down... if he hadn't had to avoid the pace car going into that corner.

Regardless... in all my racing & instructing experience, given those track conditions... it's ALWAYS the driver's responsibility to avoid the car in front.

:s mokin:

You forget the first corner that turns right, hamilton goes into it very hard some distance from behind the safety car, and acclerates coming out, then moves left to avoid bumping the safety car before the left hand turn---another example of going in too fast, then too slow so as to throw everyone off

[tinchote]

:D Thanks !!!

I found the article and also a copy of the video.

;) The video shows LH closing too quickly on the pace car... entering the corner, LH pulls over to the outside and slows down (avoiding passing the pace car)... then LH swings out wider... still slowing (probably less traction & possible marbles out there), Webber ducks down inside... also slowing... Vettel follows Webber's roostertail and... BANG !!!

:rolleyes: Looks like simple driver error... Vettel following to close as Mark says !!!

Why U Tube was forced to take down a private video (a fan took video from the stands)... no explaination !!!

If any additional penalties are handed out....

well... draw your own conclusions !!!

:s mokin:


It doesn't happen that often ;) , but I completely agree with you.

[yodasarmpit]

I'm still struggling to comprehend how Hamilton can be blamed for the incident of Vettel running into the back of Webber.
Now if Hamilton was on the same line as the other two and hammered on the brakes I would apportion part of the blame to him, but we have all seen the video and thats clearly not the case.

[markabilly]

I will say one thing---I am amazed about the continued use of a too slow SC

It is time to put a car that is capable of running at the proper speed to keep tires warm and such, and then slow down where appropriate, even if it means a two year old race car from lemans series or even an old F1 car from a couple of years ago, with a proper driver, retired but still good enough to put a car on the grid.

Then the rule should be strictly enforced about antics of slamming on brakes and accelerating and so forth

Has everyone just completely forgotten about Aryton?

or is the extra sponsorship income from mecerdes too much$$$$ to turn down by that old stalwart of driver safety who had to battle and overcome people such as that half-wit Stewart to make the race tracks safe......aka maxiepad

[BDunnell]

I will say one thing---I am amazed about the continued use of a too slow SC

It is time to put a car that is capable of running at the proper speed to keep tires warm and such, and then slow down where appropriate, even if it means a two year old race car from lemans series or even an old F1 car from a couple of years ago, with a proper driver, retired but still good enough to put a car on the grid.

Then the rule should be strictly enforced about antics of slamming on brakes and accelerating and so forth

Has everyone just completely forgotten about Aryton?

or is the extra sponsorship income from mecerdes too much$$$$ to turn down by that old stalwart of driver safety who had to battle and overcome people such as that half-wit Stewart to make the race tracks safe......aka maxiepad

We've been through this. The current safety car is fine. As has been stated often enough by people who know far more than we do, it can even be too quick for the F1 cars in wet conditions. Martin Brundle was saying as much during his commentary on Sunday, if I remember correctly. Don't forget, the safety car isn't introduced for fun in F1.

[markabilly]

We've been through this. The current safety car is fine. As has been stated often enough by people who know far more than we do, it can even be too quick for the F1 cars in wet conditions. Martin Brundle was saying as much during his commentary on Sunday, if I remember correctly. Don't forget, the safety car isn't introduced for fun in F1.



Then there is not much of an excuse for all of this slam on the brakes and accerate hard

esp when it comes to going fast or accelerate hard into the corner and brake or slow down out of it, is there???

so much for safety--looks like it is more for fun!!!

[Spyfunkr]

Ive tried like hell to get a working link for the video. Anyone got one? Thanks

[markabilly]

Ive tried like hell to get a working link for the video. Anyone got one? Thanks

go to trumper earlier post, then to "paddock talk" and look in the "rumor bin", seems u tube is pulling them down a few hours after they pop up, as benrie is zealously or jealousy gurading all his copyrights or whatever

[trumperZ06]

But you are right about left and right-

THANKS !!!

but that was not the "line" that any other driver took--he took it to accelerate up and almost past and then stop--why? To throw off the other cars.

;) Hhmmm... given that the pace car suffered understeer (PLOWED) exiting the apex... LH came up on the car quicker than expected, he also had to "turn in" to avoid the pace car... limiting his braking. LH's brake lights came on well before he turned in... and if he would have been able to follow a normal arc... IMO... he left himself... plenty of room to brake.


As you have already admitted "too fast" into the corner in the first quote, he is already asking for it-----then he is playing "the let us go very slowly out of the corner" game--I should know, and you should too, done it to others and had it done to me, but NEVER during a yellow behind a safety car--(why ?? because it is one thing to go at it with the green on, it is NOT okay to do it when the yellow is on.)

:eek: I simply don't see anyone intentially doing this while the pace car is limiting the traffic... and I know well about fast in/FASTER OUT, I drive a C-6 Z06 and use raw power to my advantage !!!


Thanks for the link to "paddock", as I managed to find the video again, and it is now clearer than ever.....

;) Your welcome... and... take another look at the pace car and see if you don't agree... it looks like the pace car is "plowing" (sliding..) exiting the apex.

[Pack Rat]

:D It looks to me... that the pace car was "understeering" just after corner apex, you can see the Mercedes pace car "plowing"... thereby taking a wider exit left than he wanted.

;) Now, I admit, this is conjecture... I think LH would have been well able to slow down... if he hadn't had to avoid the pace car going into that corner.

Regardless... in all my racing & instructing experience, given those track conditions... it's ALWAYS the driver's responsibility to avoid the car in front.

:s mokin:

You're right, the pace car got it all wrong into the entrance of the turn complex and apexed too early which caused him to be set up wrong for the left hander. The rain exaggerated the error. Hamilton was taking a correct line and as a result, he did run up onto the pace car.

And I agree that the following driver is responsible when colliding with the car in front. But in this case, Vettel has already been penalized. Sorry Mr. Tost, but I think Vettel's penalty will remain. The point about Hamilton is that his actions, bearing in mind the responsibility of the lead car on the track, are similar to someone brake testing another. Tailgating is allowed and encouraged on the track, but that's why the leader should never break test the field. Maybe Hamilton didn't perform a classic brake test, but his erratic behavior contributed to the accident behind and Hamilton definitely benefitted because of it. He needs to be penalized.

[Stuartf12007]

repost the video on to break.com

[markabilly]

;) Your welcome... and... take another look at the pace car and see if you don't agree... it looks like the pace car is "plowing" exiting the apex.


It could be between the right turn and then the left turn, but hamilton is now off line and falls so far behind, and never accelerates to catch up and still is slowing, so if he was to have put himself back where he belongs as the cars come out, even if the safety car plows off the corner, there is no danger--indeed the safer place to be is on the left on the inside of the apex of the second corner

Indeed hamilton could have put himself back on the very same line as Webber with complete safety, but instead he continues to slow such that webber is now along side, and Webber slams on the brake so as to not pass

In any event, if the rule is that the one behind must maintain a safe speed and distance behind, then hamilton violated the rule upon entry into the frist corner where they turn right

[trumperZ06]

It doesn't happen that often ;) , but I completely agree with you.

:D HEY... THANKS TINCHOTE !!! :D

;) Your comments are much appreciated... even when we dis-agree !!!

[rohanweb]

If you ever drive into the back of somebody just try telling your insurance company it was the fault of the driver two cars in front of you!

FIA people are the joke of this year!

[Spyfunkr]

Thanks for the info, markabilly, found it.

If the rule doesnt distinguish between intended and unintended erratic driving, punishment may be due LH. I think its more likely he was trying to correct the mistake of coming in too hot by slowing down and trying to avoid an collision. We may never know his true intent. In these conditions, I dont know how you can be sure. Again, seems like too risky move against drivers not even in the hunt to be purposeful.

Spy

[trumperZ06]

It could be between the right turn and then the left trun, but hamilton is now off line and falls so far behind, and never accelerates to catch up and still is slowing, so if he was to have put himself back where he belongs as the cars come out, even if the safety car plows off the corner, there is no danger--indeed the safer place to be is on the left on the inside of the apex of the second corner

Indeed hamilton could have put himself back on the very same line as Webber with complete safety, but instead he continues to slow such that webber is now along side, and Webber slams on the brake

:eek: Well now... you've Lost It !!!

:D Once LH has made the hard right hand turn... thereby avoiding bumping the pace car... he's "traction limited" and therefore forced into staying... track right !!! Simply... Physics !!!

[Pack Rat]

If you ever drive into the back of somebody just try telling your insurance company it was the fault of the driver two cars in front of you!

FIA people are the joke of this year!

Forget about even being in an accident. When renewing your policy, just try telling the insurance company that you drive racing cars.

The analogy of car insurance and racing doesn't necessarily hold up because different rules apply.

[rohanweb]

Vettel was too close to Webber. He hit him because he was looking in the wrong direction. The only car you should be concentrating on when the safety car is out, is the one in front of you.


I thought it might be possible that all F1 drivers are really pissed off at Hamilton for winning and making them all look like pathetic incompetent idiots, but i never really even believed my own theory!! Now I beleive!!!

at any cost Lewis Hamilton to beat all to the championship!!!
lets roll on.

[MbFnBy]

I am sure my insurance company would have put the blame on Vettel!

It's wet! do they not know the rules when driving in the wet? No?

It takes nearly twice the distance to stop! KEEP YOUR DISTANCE!!!!

Muppets

[Pack Rat]

Vettel was too close to Webber. He hit him because he was looking in the wrong direction. The only car you should be concentrating on when the safety car is out, is the one in front of you.


I thought it might be possible that all F1 drivers are really pissed off at Hamilton for winning and making them all look like pathetic incompetent idiots, but i never really even believed my own theory!! Now I beleive!!!

at any cost Lewis Hamilton to beat all to the championship!!!
lets roll on.

Agreed about Vettel. But he's already been penailized. Hamilton played a role in the causing the accident (to his beneift, no less) and should also incur some penalty.

As far as the championship, it is all but decided. Can't see Alonso making up 12 points in two races. Even if Hamilton starts 10th this weekend, he should end up scoring points if not the podium.

[markabilly]

:eek: Well now... you've Lost It !!!

:D Once LH has made the hard right hand turn... thereby avoiding bumping the pace car... he's "traction limited" and therefore forced into staying... track right !!! Simply... Physics !!!


First he is in too fast

then he turns back further right, and SLOWS, just contining straight without an attempt to turn back left until close to the edge of the pavement

Too bad you do not have a tape where he did this same move later, slowing very slow on the outside, then a quick blast, with the safety car very far in front---it was on U tube, but now it is gone--copyright

Good attempt at trying to give him an excuse for why he is not responsible for creating the mess...although one might say, how do you become traction limited by putting yourself there, when none of the other cars were being engaged in such antics on that corner.....and then say after putting himself there, claim he did nothing wrong?

Clearly his antics just went a bit too far this time.. :D but others paid the price

As to punishment, this entire discussion will not be the basis of what happens, it will all be about politics and revenue :vader:


do not mean to be rude but i got to go!!

[Easy Drifter]

markabilly: I do not intend to insult you but to me it appears you have not been around racing very long and I am fairly certain you have never raced, especially in the rain.
I have and it is tricky. I remember driving in the rain at night and figuring how hard it was coming down by how far I slid on a river crossing the track in the middle of a corner. Visibility is the pits at the best of times and the spray from the safety car would be bothering Lewis too. If, and it is quite possible, the safety car slowed more than usual or took a different line to normal for some reason Lewis may have been caught out resulting in his own problems. He also was probably exploring lines and might have got caught out a bit this way.
I instructed at a school for two years and knew every possible line around my home track and the best lines in the wet. It paid off once as my little 1100cc sports racer outqualified several Can Am cars and every under 2 litre car. Skinny tires, no power, no brains but I knew where to drive in the wet. These guys were still trying to find the best wet way around
I certainly was not a F1 driver but I raced against 7 who were, at one time or another.
That said I agree he was playing games and but everybody does it. He was just pushing it a bit more than usual, although I have seen worse.
This weekend Charlie will give them a blast and it will probably settle down for a little while. Then it will start up again as the drivers see how much they can get away with. It is the nature of racing drivers and any fierce competitors. It happens in CC and IRL as well, including on rolling starts.

[trumperZ06]

You're right, the pace car got it all wrong into the entrance of the turn complex and apexed too early which caused him to be set up wrong for the left hander. The rain exaggerated the error. Hamilton was taking a correct line and as a result, he did run up onto the pace car.

And I agree that the following driver is responsible when colliding with the car in front. But in this case, Vettel has already been penalized. Sorry Mr. Tost, but I think Vettel's penalty will remain. The point about Hamilton is that his actions, bearing in mind the responsibility of the lead car on the track, are similar to someone brake testing another. Tailgating is allowed and encouraged on the track, but that's why the leader should never break test the field. Maybe Hamilton didn't perform a classic brake test, but his erratic behavior contributed to the accident behind and Hamilton definitely benefitted because of it. He needs to be penalized.

:D Hhmmm... we agree on the cause of the incident ie. the pace car's early apex... then understeer... forcing LH to change direction, turning hard right after running up on the pace car !!!

:eek: From there... you lose me.

;) I see it as: LH having to stay "track right" as he's now traction limited, and also LH may be attempting to slow the car, to make the following left turn. LH is staying outside on the left turn (far right), so as NOT to interfer with the cars following.

My call would be... The Pace Car initiated the problem, LH avoided contact with the pace car and everyone else... so no harm/no foul.

Webber was "caught up" by Vettel... who ran up his butt, penalty Vettel for causing an avoidable accident.

:s mokin:

[rohanweb]

by watching f1 races in the previous races the pole man always chose to slow down and accelerate behind the safety cars... famous names i can remember.. so no body complained about it.. why the hell years expereinced driver like Mark webber was driving too close to Lewis hamilton's car all those laps and Vettel was like sticked together.. they both 'were' the problem.. I thought looking at it like Webber really wants to have a go at Hamilton once safety car is in.. both of these idiot drivers are taking the micky out of Hamilton for thier own faults... to try and secure thier drive with rather lowly team next year! these all are just coverup..

I am banging my head againt the wall for why the hell vettel was looking at Hamiltons car? but not looking at webbers in front???
Vettel's licence should be taken away!!!

[Pack Rat]

That said I agree he was playing games and but everybody does it. He was just pushing it a bit more than usual, although I have seen worse.
This weekend Charlie will give them a blast and it will probably settle down for a little while. Then it will start up again as the drivers see how much they can get away with. It is the nature of racing drivers and any fierce competitors. It happens in CC and IRL as well, including on rolling starts.

To give my 5 cents, what you are saying is true. But the FIA has already set a precedent with Schumi in Monaco and Alonso in Hungary. And even against Alonso in Monza '06 for a seemingly innocent transgression. They cannot let Hamilton off without a penalty and then say that they enforce rules consistently and fairly--especially because Hamilton, just like Schumi and Alonso, benefitted from the incident.

[markabilly]

markabilly: I do not intend to insult you but to me it appears you have not been around racing very long and I am fairly certain you have never raced, especially in the rain.
I have and it is tricky. I remember driving in the rain at night and figuring how hard it was coming down by how far I slid on a river crossing the track in the middle of a corner. Visibility is the pits at the best of times and the spray from the safety car would be bothering Lewis too. If, and it is quite possible, the safety car slowed more than usual or took a different line to normal for some reason Lewis may have been caught out resulting in his own problems. He also was probably exploring lines and might have got caught out a bit this way.
I instructed at a school for two years and knew every possible line around my home track and the best lines in the wet. It paid off once as my little 1100cc sports racer outqualified several Can Am cars and every under 2 litre car. Skinny tires, no power, no brains but I knew where to drive in the wet. These guys were still trying to find the best wet way around
I certainly was not a F1 driver but I raced against 7 who were, at one time or another.
That said I agree he was playing games and but everybody does it. He was just pushing it a bit more than usual, although I have seen worse.
This weekend Charlie will give them a blast and it will probably settle down for a little while. Then it will start up again as the drivers see how much they can get away with. It is the nature of racing drivers and any fierce competitors. It happens in CC and IRL as well, including on rolling starts.


No just cars and motorcyles--i know what it is to find myself unexpectedly off the line by water and even worse oil,

but if you watch him at this corner on at least one other ocaision he did exactly the same thing, except that the cars were further behind him, and he came slowly, way too slowly out of the corner after making almost everyone behind him come to an almost complete stop BEFORE the left turn, goes outside very slow, then when he is out of the corner, he blasts off...it was on u tube but now gone (alas curse bernie and his copyright!!)

You know it was game playing-----we all know it was game playing---I have
done the same kind of thing before while racing in the green, and had it done to me, but never in yellow and never in this extreme fashion

Indeed, I think that champ car or IRL have a penalty they impose for such, even where there is no accident, when done under the yellow--leader has to move back some spots or do a drive through

Colin Edwards won a superbike race at Seca doing something of the same thing on a dry track but not this extreme and NOT under yellow

But if you do not think I have enough credentials, seems Jenson Button, and many other drivers, are beginning to say the same thing

sorry must go, enjoyed the chat

[Crypt]

I distinctly remember yelling at the TV and throwing my foam brick at it asking "What the hell is Lewis doing, he's all over the place! He's going to cause a wreck..."

A rookie is still a rookie and it took two to ruin Web's day.

[markabilly]

:D Hhmmm... we agree on the cause of the incident ie. the pace car's early apex... then understeer... forcing LH to change direction, turning hard right after running up on the pace car !!!



:s mokin:

No sorry what i said was, regardless of the pace car actions, that LH had the same obligation as everyone seems to want to impose upon Vettel--- keep a safe speed and distance so as to not run into the SC--and that does not mean swerving to avoid contact, that means slowing....


you have already said LH was going too fast into the corner, and that is clear.

But if THIS WERE the ONLY spot on a spotless drive behind the safety car, then one transgression...well I dunno. BUT it was NOT, this was what he did continuously to throw off everyone and create chaos.

this time it worked quite well, when Webber and SV bumped........ :rolleyes:

gots to go

[Spyfunkr]

To give my 5 cents, what you are saying is true. But the FIA has already set a precedent with Schumi in Monaco and Alonso in Hungary. And even against Alonso in Monza '06 for a seemingly innocent transgression. They cannot let Hamilton off without a penalty and then say that they enforce rules consistently and fairly--especially because Hamilton, just like Schumi and Alonso, benefitted from the incident.

The benefit was itself, incidental. Pulling this in these conditions could have just as easily taken LH out. I just cant fathom that any smart driver would be intending this move coming into that turn, in those conditions.

Spy

[Pack Rat]

:D Hhmmm... we agree on the cause of the incident ie. the pace car's early apex... then understeer... forcing LH to change direction, turning hard right after running up on the pace car !!!

:eek: From there... you lose me.

;) I see it as: LH having to stay "track right" as he's now traction limited, and also LH may be attempting to slow the car, to make the following left turn. LH is staying outside on the left turn (far right), so as NOT to interfer with the cars following.

My call would be... The Pace Car initiated the problem, LH avoided contact with the pace car and everyone else... so no harm/no foul.

Webber was "caught up" by Vettel... who ran up his butt, penalty Vettel for causing an avoidable accident.

:s mokin:

Yeah, we'll never really know so it will all be left to interpretaton. I don't think that Hamilton was traction limited to the extent that he had to slow down as much and as dramatically as he did. In fact, I think he was initially set up correctly for the left hander if he was at racing speed in order to maximize exit speed and acceleration out of the turn. Certainly, it appears he could have made the turn without slowing down so, so much like he ended up doing.

My thought is that Hamilton was playing his trump card of the leading car having an invisible line that no competitor can cross. (Remember Schumi on the parade lap in Great Britain in '94?) Hamilton was playing games, but he was too extreme in accelerating and decelerating. The safety car driver error may have caught him out a bit, but Hamilton was already trying to catch the field out with his antics. In the context of how he behaved behind the safety car all race long, it appears that his acts were deliberate.

[Easy Drifter]

My apologies, markabilly. It does appear we will continue to have differing opinions though. Yeah, oil ain't no picnic either.
Ever try winter rallying in snow or wilder yet ice racing?

[FIA]

Would all this give Heikki Kovalainen the victory?

[Easy Drifter]

The stewards used to change from race to race. Is this still true? If so there could be stewards looking at this who were not even in Japan. Anybody know?

[grantb4]

This is really stupid.

1. If the FIA or the stewards are really looking at YouTube in order to referee their races then it is a sad day for all of us. And four days later??!! Clearly it's a Lego creation ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrEjvlSRqYc

2. Suppose Hamilton actually had broken down. Then Vettel would still have run into the back of Webber. Clearly that would be declared a brain fart on Vettel's part -- he was the only one that collided with anyone. Surely there were a lot of close calls all day long; pace car or not.

[Hazell B]

BBC News 24 is almost showing the phone camera footage on a loop, and saying that Alonso agrees with Webber (but not saying when he agreed, or directly quoting him :rolleyes: ) then going on to say Hamilton will probably get a ten place penalty to improve the season's competition.

Either way, much as I'm a Hamilton fan, I have to say he wasn't showing any consideration for the vehicles behind himself. His visibility wasn't half as bad as theirs, something he will obviously have known, and he was all over the place when he didn't really need to be. If he's sent back on the next grid, it seems fair to me. He could after all have caused a pile up worthy of clearing out half the field.

If his points are taken away, that would be too harsh a penalty.

By the way, I think the FIA will have been looking for video proof of what happened since the race, it's just good luck somebody found this to back-up Webber's pleas for justice. They couldn't act without film, really.

[BDunnell]

1. If the FIA or the stewards are really looking at YouTube in order to referee their races then it is a sad day for all of us. And four days later??!! Clearly it's a Lego creation ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrEjvlSRqYc


Agreed.

[rohanweb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QJurnfxRm4

heres the link... it shows LH nearly caughtup with the safety car, and he slowed down drastically, webber was following tooclose to Hamilton and struggles to stop and vettel again following webber too close and crashes in to back of webber.. I reckon the blame lies with all, and LH may well be given 10 place penalty and I am honestly not with points taken away from him.
its a racing incident, in this case webber the matured F1 driver should have been more careful with following a rookie as well as a rookie behind...!Webber is indeed to get atleast 50% of the blame.!i reckon.

[nigelred5]

Exactly :up:

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a rule putting a stop to all the starting-stopping during the safety car period.

And therein lies the issue. All of the BS under caution. They are told when the track will be going green and the safety car will be turning it's lights off. Hamiltons' erratic driving behavior and brake warming under FCY/SC caused Weber to also slow down at a point on the track where they normally accelerate, even under caution.

I'll second that motion to stop all that bs until they are notified the track will be going green. There was no reason to be warming brakes at that point.

[BDunnell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QJurnfxRm4

heres the link... it shows LH nearly caughtup with the safety car, and he slowed down drastically, webber was following tooclose to Hamilton and struggles to stop and vettel again following webber too close and crashes in to back of webber.. I reckon the blame lies with all, and LH may well be given 10 place penalty and I am honestly not with points taken away from him.
its a racing incident, in this case webber the matured F1 driver should have been more careful with following a rookie as well as a rookie behind...!Webber is indeed to get atleast 50% of the blame.!i reckon.

Looking at it from that angle, I think it looks like a racing incident, and not as bad on Hamilton's part as what he did earlier in the race.

[markabilly]

We've been through this. The current safety car is fine. As has been stated often enough by people who know far more than we do, it can even be too quick for the F1 cars in wet conditions. Martin Brundle was saying as much during his commentary on Sunday, if I remember correctly. Don't forget, the safety car isn't introduced for fun in F1.


Then there is not much of an excuse for all of this slam on the brakes and accerate hard

esp when it comes to going fast or accelerate hard into the corner and brake or slow down out of it, is there???

so much for safety--looks like it is more for fun!!!


And therein lies the issue. All of the BS under caution. They are told when the track will be going green and the safety car will be turning it's lights off. Hamiltons' erratic driving behavior and brake warming under FCY/SC caused Weber to also slow down at a point on the track where they normally accelerate, even under caution.

I'll second that motion to stop all that bs until they are notified the track will be going green. There was no reason to be warming brakes at that point.


guess that makes four votes in agreement about that--it would be unnecessary and just playing games to gain an advantage (or we need a much faster safety car--and if they can not warm up their brakes behind the safety car in a better manner because of the slow speed of the safety car, then the car does noeed to be faster, or a certain SAFE area on the track needs to be clearly and precisely designated as a warm up zone for such use at that point and that point only)

[wmcot]

I can only come up with a few possible reasons for all this discussion:

1. Hamilton was playing games behind the safety car hoping this thing would happen (all through the race when behind the safety car, not just once)

2. Hamilton does not know how to warm his brakes and tires properly without interfering with the drivers behind him.

3. Hamilton does not know how to properly follow a safety car.

Perhaps we would have heard more screaming if Vettel had run into the back of Hamilton (that would have been fair!)

If you watch the entire race and not just this video you can see that Hamilton's driving behind the safety car involved EXTREME braking and accelerating actions.

I believe that in the first safety car period, these were designed with the hope of a similar event happening to Alonso. Once LH was challenged by Webber, he continued the same actions and, this time, got his desired results.

Hamilton is a crafty racing driver, not the average school-boy rookie everyone makes him out to be.

If you keep the situation and outcome the same and replace Hamilton with M. Schumacher how do you think the posts would be reading?

[markabilly]

I can only come up with a few possible reasons for all this discussion:

1. Hamilton was playing games behind the safety car hoping this thing would happen (all through the race when behind the safety car, not just once)

2. Hamilton does not know how to warm his brakes and tires properly without interfering with the drivers behind him.

3. Hamilton does not know how to properly follow a safety car.

Perhaps we would have heard more screaming if Vettel had run into the back of Hamilton (that would have been fair!)

If you watch the entire race and not just this video you can see that Hamilton's driving behind the safety car involved EXTREME braking and accelerating actions.

I believe that in the first safety car period, these were designed with the hope of a similar event happening to Alonso. Once LH was challenged by Webber, he continued the same actions and, this time, got his desired results.

Hamilton is a crafty racing driver, not the average school-boy rookie everyone makes him out to be.

If you keep the situation and outcome the same and replace Hamilton with M. Schumacher how do you think the posts would be reading?



I think, that is my biggest point, the repetitive behavior finally caused the wreck-1. Hamilton was playing games behind the safety car hoping this thing would happen (all through the race when behind the safety car, not just once)
--------if it had been this one corner, this one and only time...I dunno, maybe just another small error on part of everyone, but it was NOT just this corner :rolleyes:

It is one thing to have a video of someone firing a gun and hitting someone and that person saying...gee it was an accident, ....could be.....but when the other evidence is there he doing an awful lot of shooting all over, repeatedly in a dangerous manner.....well, it becomes evidence of more than a mere accident.

In any event, whatever happens will be a political decision and not a technical based only on the evidence decision...so I see very little penalty if any for LH (just like the collision with Kubica) unless Bernie gets really bold and decides we need a little more interest and action for the final race....sure wish I could hear what bernie is saying to stewards directly or through the grapevine, then I would know exactly what will happen before it does :D

[truefan72]

this whole conversation and FIA inquiry is utterly riodiculous.

LH is blamed for an incident between Webber and vettel ,where he is miles away from the actual incident and leading the race under caution.

In that race alone, which I recorded, I can see at least 20 different incidents of drivers accellarating and braking and even some slightly surging ahead of other cars and backing off

In fact both Raikkonen and Massa spun early in the race, if other cars collided behind them, would they blame those guys.

Did Wurz get a penalty for causing the Massa contact

Let's go back to Germany and watch the race again.

I can go back to a bunch of races this year and last year where similar driving has occured. ( I didn't see Trulli getting any penalty for break checking that caused Kubica to crash in Canada, etc...)

You would then have to go back and retroactvely penalise every driver for first corner incidents that resluted in crashes behidn them or around them.

This would be the first time in the HISTORY of driving that a driver would be penalised for an accident occuring behind him. LET ALONE leading the race, LET ALONE under SC conditions, LET ALONE when Vettel admitted his bonehead driving mistake ( under SC conditions)
This whole affair is beyond absurd and continues to put F1 in disrepute with their braind dead actions.

I'm ashamed and saddened to see what F1 has come to in 2007,
I have very little confidence in competitive driving until Max Mosley ( who Im sure insitigated the investigation) dissapears, and most of the FIA principles in power today leave.


This whole thing is just absurd. And should quickly go away before it completely gets out of hand.

then again it already has

[Rollo]

How come Vettel isn't being investigated for taking Alonso out of the race? I mean it's all very well to accuse Hamilton of causing an accident which he wasn't involved in, but Vettel hit two cars and put them out of the race.

Unless Hamilton is docked points, then Alonso's championship is ruined by being hit in the rear. The reason why Vettel isn't being investigated at all is because he scored zero points and as such can't directly compete for the World Championship. I should point out that Championships have been won and lost as a result of two title contenders taking each other out.

As far as the FIA is concerned, it it increases revenue by having the title race run for longer, then they will investigate this and hold Hamilton responsible.

[Ari]

Regulations.....smegulations. I am beginning to think any regulation of the FIA is not entireley worth the medium it is transcribed upon.......

They'll be employing tape measures next, then a poor guy with a red flag to lead them all round. :p :

Entirely laughable.

You're right. Let's just ignore the rules or should I say the smegulations when they don't apply to your benefit.

[Ari]

I disagree... however, that's just 'opinion' and really doesn't count for much.



So tell me, is the below 'manufactured'?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash1.jpg
You can see in the pic above that Hamilton is within approx 2 car lengths of the safety car, if not less. You will also note that Webber is upto 8-10 car lengths away from Hamilton..... a preety reasonable distance really.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash2.jpg
In this image you can see Hamilton is on the other side of the corner, only 50 metres track away and is right up next to the safety car... about as close as he could be without overtaking. Note again the distance which Webber was behind him entering this corner.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash3.jpg
In the image above we can clearly see Lewis braking off to the right of screen. We can see he is way off the racing line and has slowed enough for Webber to make up some 6-8 car lengths in the space of a corner and on top of that the other 3 car lengths he made up on the safety car to be right up next to it!

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash4.jpg
In the above Lewis is STILL braking off the race line, and has now almost come to a complete stop. The safety car is now entirely out of screen and has rounded the corner whereas Lewis is almost stopped and pointing off the circuit. We can see how close Vettel is now to Webber and that Webber has started turning for the corner already.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/arifromoz/Random/crash5.jpg
In this last image we can see Hamilton finally starting to turn left, not long before track runs out. We also see Vettel running into the back of Webber while (apparently) looking at Hamilton and wondering what's wrong... is there a mechanical error which has pointed him off circuit to a near stop? Webber of course has come to a near stop as well knowing the kind of bloke Hamilton is... and that there's no mechanical error, he's just playing games.

So....again, who's fault is it and where does the fault lye? I reckon Schultz assessment is preety darn close!


Just thought I might bump this post from earlier in the thread.....

[Ari]

by watching f1 races in the previous races the pole man always chose to slow down and accelerate behind the safety cars... famous names i can remember.. so no body complained about it.. why the hell years expereinced driver like Mark webber was driving too close to Lewis hamilton's car all those laps and Vettel was like sticked together.. they both 'were' the problem.. I thought looking at it like Webber really wants to have a go at Hamilton once safety car is in.. both of these idiot drivers are taking the micky out of Hamilton for thier own faults... to try and secure thier drive with rather lowly team next year! these all are just coverup..

I am banging my head againt the wall for why the hell vettel was looking at Hamiltons car? but not looking at webbers in front???
Vettel's licence should be taken away!!!

To start with, the lights were still on on the SC so it wasn't coming in. And if it were coming in then Lewis should be disqualified as once you make your move and accelerate you can't backoff again until the line.

Fact is... you should look at my screen caps above. Lewis got on the gas then midcorner went off the racing line and came to an almost complete stop. Perhaps Lewis did not CAUSE the accident, but he was highly instrumental in it. This is why, with the new evidence, the FIA have re-opened the case against him.

If they don't do something about it now then the kid just don't learn and will continue to be a danger on the track.

[Ari]

_QJurnfxRm4

[Ari]

Ive tried like hell to get a working link for the video. Anyone got one? Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QJurnfxRm4

[markabilly]

Just thought I might bump this post from earlier in the thread.....
Glad you did!!!!

I guess with all the merging of threads, i totally missed this series

Come on, tell us, did you take this film?

How else did you get such clear images?

I tried but all i could get out of U tube was pretty blurry and messed up.... :D

(the other picures showing how far away the safety car was that you posted much earlier was even better)

[Rollo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE6yY6Zzzws

This is what people saw in TV land. The problem is that the telly picures show that Hamilton was NEVER more than 5 car lengths behind the Safety Car. The Vettel/Webber incident looks very close to Hamilton probably because of a depth issue and the fact that the camera position remains fixed.

Anyone who's been to a football match can attest that if you stand behing the goals, the field looks shorter than if you'd been standing on the half way line. The perspective of this fixed camera suffers from the same thing.

I questioned the cut and paste job because the Safety Car was out of shot and even in the footage from that chap's mobile phone, the Safety Car dissapears to the left of screen whilst Hamilton is on the right. Hamilton could have very easily moved to the right because he couldn't see the road ahead through the spray that the Safety Car was throwing up.

If it is dangerous to stay on the racing line because you can not see, then why are you expected to drive on it for?

[OOG]

After a lengthy consultation with Bagley Ecclestone I have drawn some conclusions regarding the incident under investigation:

It would appear LH was definitely erratic in his conduct wrt the Safety Car, i.e. constant changes in pace and in particular in sector 3. It was obvious to viewers on 6 continents that he was slowing at sector 3 every lap and letting the SC get away.

All the teams were aware of LH's actions as the lead car in the parade.

Some teams complained, INCLUDING LH re Webber's alleged aggressive driving during SC period.

The spotter in the Safety Car had 19 laps to notice LH's breach of regulations.

The race director had 19 laps to caution MacLaren that LH's driving was not acceptable.

If LH's conduct continued to be unacceptable after being informed of the warning, then a drive through penalty could be assessed following the restart.

Instead the WDC will be affected by an amateur video and whinging after the fact. Bollocks.

If the rule needs enforcing, enforce it during the race please. Simple...n'est ce pas?

[Ranger]

Instead the WDC will be affected by an amateur video and whinging after the fact.
Reflects nicely on the quality of the broadcast itself, methinks.

Bollocks.
Yep, that indeed summarises the TV feed and coverage of the incident.

[wmcot]

If the rule needs enforcing, enforce it during the race please. Simple...n'est ce pas?

Why can't the FIA officials make quick decisions? In ALMS racing, penalties are given out all the time while the race is in progress! They can be anything from a drive-through to a time penalty of 2-5 minutes! Enge was fired during a race - no hearing, no committee!

I think there needs to be one or two officials at each race (the same officials all season, please) who can watch the monitors and make quick decisions. I was at the USGP in 2004 when Montoya was black-flagged about 2/3 through the race for something that happened before the start.

It seems that F1 officials rule by a bureaucratic committee. They can't make a decision without a hearing first.

Of course, if you do give a small number the authority to make decisions on penalties quickly, there will be some mistakes. Can you imagine if every play in an NBA basketball game was reviewed! You could probably spot a dozen fouls each time down the court. The officials in the NBA make quick judgment calls, stand by them, and play continues. (Except those who bet on the outcome of games they officiate - maybe that was a bad example :) )

It would be nice if F1 had the same ability to make calls within a few laps of an event.

[Daniel]

Why can't the FIA officials make quick decisions? In ALMS racing, penalties are given out all the time while the race is in progress! They can be anything from a drive-through to a time penalty of 2-5 minutes! Enge was fired during a race - no hearing, no committee!

I think there needs to be one or two officials at each race (the same officials all season, please) who can watch the monitors and make quick decisions. I was at the USGP in 2004 when Montoya was black-flagged about 2/3 through the race for something that happened before the start.

It seems that F1 officials rule by a bureaucratic committee. They can't make a decision without a hearing first.

Of course, if you do give a small number the authority to make decisions on penalties quickly, there will be some mistakes. Can you imagine if every play in an NBA basketball game was reviewed! You could probably spot a dozen fouls each time down the court. The officials in the NBA make quick judgment calls, stand by them, and play continues. (Except those who bet on the outcome of games they officiate - maybe that was a bad example :) )

It would be nice if F1 had the same ability to make calls within a few laps of an event.
WTH? If they don't have the evidence to make the decision then why should they make it?

[Valve Bounce]

There appears to be extreme divergence in opinion on the behaviour/driving of LH when following the safety car. While not wishing to contribute to this controversy, as I was watching a replay of The Cats mauling The Power on my VCR, I would like to refer all parties to this report in Autosport :http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62978
and it appears that the officials are investigating the erratic behaviour of LH when following the SC for many, many laps.

I hope this might add to the confusion surrounding this discussion. :confused:

By the way, the mauling of The Power by The Cats was even more enjoyable the second time round. :)

[Ranger]

WTH? If they don't have the evidence to make the decision then why should they make it?
Exactly. The evidence lays in footage which was not shown by the universal broadcaster. This is why Vettel was promptly penalised as the footage showed him emerging from a tangle, whilst Hamilton was not even questioned until the surfacing of an amateur video. The whole thing was a shambles.

[BDunnell]

Exactly. The evidence lays in footage which was not shown by the universal broadcaster. This is why Vettel was promptly penalised as the footage showed him emerging from a tangle, whilst Hamilton was not even questioned until the surfacing of an amateur video. The whole thing was a shambles.

Which is why it's even more strange that they didn't think that what he did earlier was unacceptable and worth raising at the time. That was clearly visible on the TV.

[ArrowsFA1]

Which is why it's even more strange that they didn't think that what he did earlier was unacceptable and worth raising at the time. That was clearly visible on the TV.
Given the amount of time that was spent behind the safety car surely there was time for teams to raise the issue of Hamilton's driving if they had cause for complaint. We often see stewards make decisions during the races that result in drive-through penalties, for example.

Mark Webber was critical of Vettel in the aftermath of the Japanese GP:

"Vettel was a bit wild behind me during the first safety car period and then did a very good job of hitting me very hard under the second safety car."
but as the driver directly behind Hamilton in those conditions you would have thought he was best placed to be critical of Hamilton. He wasn't...until we got to China:

"I think he did a **** job behind the safety car. He did a **** job and that's it."
That's not me being critical of Mark, just pointing out that he was aware of Vettel, not Hamilton, being "a bit wild".

[THE_LIBERATOR]

If Lewis Hamilton is disqualified STR's Vitantonio Liuzzi gets his lost point back? Interesting. That certainly raises the possibility of an ulterior motive for such a strong, vitriolic, objection from Red Bull & STR drivers.

[tinchote]

I was at the USGP in 2004 when Montoya was black-flagged about 2/3 through the race for something that happened before the start.


So many people complained about that decision, that the rules were changed to allow for decisions being after the race. So, it's a bad example to mention, because it was precisely the one that caused decisions to be slower.


Mark Webber was critical of Vettel in the aftermath of the Japanese GP:

but as the driver directly behind Hamilton in those conditions you would have thought he was best placed to be critical of Hamilton. He wasn't...until we got to China:

That's not me being critical of Mark, just pointing out that he was aware of Vettel, not Hamilton, being "a bit wild".

If you want to be moderate, that's your prerrogative. But I don't see it that way. I think it speaks very lowly of MW that after the race in Japan everything was Vettel's fault (a driver he couldn't really see), and he didn't mention anything to blame from LH (which he could see all - most - of the time). And then after an amateur video appears in youtube he now talks about LH's driving? A little too late, I would say :down:

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63029

Oh dear. Does he have a reason to be worried or not...?! :s

Like the WCC, the WDC will be decided in the cabinets too...

[tinchote]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63029

Oh dear. Does he have a reason to be worried or not...?! :s

Like the WCC, the WDC will be decided in the cabinets too...

Of course he has reason to be worried. FA pushed him out of the track at Spa and the matter was not even mentioned by the authorities. And now, several days after the Japan race, his driving is questioned :down:

[ArrowsFA1]

I think it speaks very lowly of MW...
Mark has clarified his comments:

Mark Webber has issued a statement making it clear that he did not complain to the race stewards about Lewis Hamilton's driving behind the safety car at the Japanese Grand Prix.
Although the Australian was critical of Hamilton's behaviour during an FIA press conference on Thursday, he stated in Red Bull Racing's press release on Friday that he did not follow that up with a visit to the stewards.
"Away from today's events, I would just like to make it clear that, although I criticised Hamilton's driving in yesterday's FIA Press Conference, at no time have I made any official complaint about anyone's driving following Sunday's Japanese Grand Prix," he said.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63026
Kovalainen has commented as well - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63033

Oh dear..
Oh dear indeed :dozey:

[tinchote]

Mark has clarified his comments:


It doesn't really clarify anything to me. What was his point, then? :confused:

[ShiftingGears]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63029

Oh dear. Does he have a reason to be worried or not...?! :s

Like the WCC, the WDC will be decided in the cabinets too...

I think he should be punished for being a jerk while behind the safety car. There were several times where he slowed to almost zero to squeeze the drivers behind him excessively. Those comments, IMO come off as arrogant politicking.


Of course he has reason to be worried. FA pushed him out of the track at Spa and the matter was not even mentioned by the authorities.

IMO it would have been, if that triggered an accident.

[jens]

Give that damn 10-position grid penalty if they need to penalize, but nullifying all that fantastic effort at Fuji would be too harsh in my (biased, if you like) opinion. Vettel got a 10-pos grid penalty and I see no reason, why Hamilton's penalty should be harsher. Gentleman or not, but Vettel has accepted that he was at fault and has not tried to put blame on Hamilton in any way.

Kovalainen sure won't get any satisfaction from such "victory"...

[tinchote]

Kovalainen sure won't get any satisfaction from such "victory"...

Well, he was on record saying he would :D

[cosmicpanda]

I think, that is my biggest point, the repetitive behavior finally caused the wreck-1. Hamilton was playing games behind the safety car hoping this thing would happen (all through the race when behind the safety car, not just once)
--------if it had been this one corner, this one and only time...I dunno, maybe just another small error on part of everyone, but it was NOT just this corner :rolleyes:

Would the drivers behind Hamilton not then be aware that Hamilton was driving like that, and they'd therefore be relatively used to it?

[Ranger]

Would the drivers behind Hamilton not then be aware that Hamilton was driving like that, and they'd therefore be relatively used to it?

How can you get used to inconsistency? Button was saying the dictated rhythm behind the SC was inconsistent, even from wherever he was at that time. This, as the Youtube video shows, contributed to the accident.

[ArrowsFA1]

It doesn't really clarify anything to me. What was his point, then? :confused:
Don't know :dozey: :crazy: Having criticised Vettel, and later Hamilton, he clearly feels the need to make clear that he made no "official complaint" about anyone.

We already know (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62981) that it was Franz Tost of Toro Rosso who complained about Hamilton's actions to the Chinese race stewards having been made aware of the spectator's video clip.

[cosmicpanda]

How can you get used to inconsistency? Button was saying the dictated rhythm behind the SC was inconsistent, even from wherever he was at that time. This, as the Youtube video shows, contributed to the accident.

Yes, I can see your point and I accept that Webber reckons that Hamilton drove badly.

But my point was, if you know that the way Hamilton is driving is bad, would you then not be more on your toes and aware of the the problem? If even where Button was the dictated rhythm, as you put it, was inconsistent, why did no other drivers crash?

[Garry Walker]

The Golden Boy will get a 10 spot penalty.

[Daniel]

Yes, I can see your point and I accept that Webber reckons that Hamilton drove badly.

But my point was, if you know that the way Hamilton is driving is bad, would you then not be more on your toes and aware of the the problem? If even where Button was the dictated rhythm, as you put it, was inconsistent, why did no other drivers crash?
CosmicPanda. Ask yourself this. If Hamilton wasn't dicking about would this accident have occured?

[BDunnell]

CosmicPanda. Ask yourself this. If Hamilton wasn't dicking about would this accident have occured?

I don't think anybody can answer such a 'what if?'. It could have done, or it could not have done.

[Ranger]

The Golden Boy will get a 10 spot penalty.
Inside word, Garry? :p :

Mind you, it was the only penalty they could give him within reason, if he is penalised.

[Garry Walker]

Inside word, Garry?
50:50 :p :

[Daniel]

I don't think anybody can answer such a 'what if?'. It could have done, or it could not have done.
But looking at the incident you'd have to argue strongly that if someone in front wasn't driving like that the accident was less likely to have occured.

[Ranger]

But my point was, if you know that the way Hamilton is driving is bad, would you then not be more on your toes and aware of the the problem? If even where Button was the dictated rhythm, as you put it, was inconsistent, why did no other drivers crash?

Why did no driver other than Button crash in a similar incident under SC in Monza 2000? The point is that Hamilton's driving under SC, by all accounts, was dangerous, inconsistent and bound to lead to an accident, which it did.

Just because Vettel was the only one who ran up the back of someone else doesn't excuse the fact that Hamilton's driving under SC was questionable at least.

[F1MAN2007]

Even if the accident would have not happened, but the driving of LH behind the SC was not fair to his race mates.

[Ranger]

Even if the accident would have not happened, but the driving of LH behind the SC was not fair to his race mates.

I agree. I think he would have still got into strife about it, albeit to a much lesser extent.

[markabilly]

The latest is that there will not be an investigation according to BBC

all done to hurt LH's confidence apparently

something about he will quit if he is or whatever

[ArrowsFA1]

BBC 5live commentator David Croft, who is in Shanghai for this weekend's race, believes reports of an investigation into Hamilton's driving are inaccurate.
He said: "We're now being told it's not really an investigation but that the three drivers have been called in to see the stewards.
"It's where the story of the investigation are being spun from. We've never been categorically told by the stewards that they are investigating what happened.
"Lewis should be completely in the clear but why was that story put around that there would be an investigation?
"Is that trying to destabilise a man that has come here to win a world title?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm)

Another conspiracy :rolleyes: Haven't we got enough of those? :dozey:

[ArrowsFA1]

Lewis Hamilton will not be punished for alleged erratic driving behind the safety car in the Japanese Grand Prix.

The 22-year-old had been thought to be under investigation and at risk of losing the 10 points for race victory. More soon.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm

[Dave B]

Beaten by Arrows!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm

:D

[BDunnell]

Beaten by Arrows!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm

:D

So, who wants to beat almost everyone else to saying, 'It's a conspiracy', then? ;)

[markabilly]

So vettel no longer has a penalty?

just a reprimand

As i said, how can vetttel recive a stiffer penalty than LH for this incident?

So just yank the penalty and smile for the camera--we can not have golden boy quit, now can we??

MS should have whined the same about the investigations involving him

[trumperZ06]

[quote="trumperZ06"] :D Hhmmm... we agree on the cause of the incident ie. the pace car's early apex... then understeer... forcing LH to change direction, turning hard right after running up on the pace car !!!

:eek: From there... you lose me.

;) I see it as: LH having to stay "track right" as he's now traction limited, and also LH may be attempting to slow the car, to make the following left turn. LH is staying outside on the left turn (far right), so as NOT to interfer with the cars following.

My call would be... The Pace Car initiated the problem, LH avoided contact with the pace car and everyone else... so no harm/no foul.

Webber was "caught up" by Vettel... who ran up his butt, penalty Vettel for causing an avoidable accident.




:D Hhmmmm... looks like the Formula One stewards came to their senses !!!

;) I guess we might see a replay with rain expected again this weekend !!!

Cya @ the track...

I'm off to see the Petit LeMans,

Trumper

[ArrowsFA1]

So, who wants to beat almost everyone else to saying, 'It's a conspiracy', then? ;)


So just yank the penalty and smile for the camera--we can not have golden boy quit, now can we??
And the winner is markabilly :bounce: :p :