Safety Cars are too slow to be safe...

[Whyzars]

In my opinion, the safety cars are proving themselves to be too slow for F1. The FIA should commission a purpose built safety car capable of maintaining speed and safe conditions. I'm thinking maybe a GP2 car or an historical F1 car purposefully kitted out to be a safety car.

Remembering that 90% of the track is generally incident free during a safety car period. The F1 cars are losing temperature from their tyres and the engines/gearboxes are being stressed behind a slow safety car.

Its all very good to give a manufacturer the advertising and sponsorship but is a street car really the right choice for an F1 safety car?

[winer]

Are the safety cars two seaters? Isn't there an observer as well as a driver on board?

[tinchote]

Are the safety cars two seaters? Isn't there an observer as well as a driver on board?

They could perfectly use a two seater F1 car. Even a three seater (remember the Arrows?)

[Hawkmoon]

I think the Safety Car is perfectly adequate for the job. The whole idea is to slow the cars down to a safe speed so that the marshalls can clear up the mess. If the safety car is going too quickly then the cars will go through the scene of the incident more often which is much more dangerous considering there will be carbon fibre shards, people and/or tractors on the circuit or close to it.

What should happen is that the drivers are forbidden from doing the stop/start act that Hamilton was doing on the weekend. Weaving to get heat into the tyres is fine but hard breaking is dangerous. Just ask Mark Webber.

[winer]

The idea of allowing the safety car to go faster is that the tires, brakes of the race cars would be hotter and closer to race temperatues, and therefore safer when racing is resumed. The safety car could still slow down when it reached "the incident", the same as it does now.

[Hawkmoon]

The idea of allowing the safety car to go faster is that the tires, brakes of the race cars would be hotter and closer to race temperatues, and therefore safer when racing is resumed. The safety car could still slow down when it reached "the incident", the same as it does now.

True, but if the safety car was going at speeds closer to normal racing speeds then the pack would potentially arrive at the sight of the incident more often. This would place F1 cars, even ones going slower than normal, on the same piece of road as people. I think this is something to be avoided wherever possible.

[Rollo]

The current car is a CLK 63 AMG modified to produce 481 bhp. It contains both the driver and an observer. It also carries a doctor on board just in case. If the need ever arose, it could in theory even pick up an extra passenger.
From a technical standpoint, the car produces about the same power as a DTM car.

Me thinks the OP who posted this thread is clutching at straws.

[janneppi]

What should happen is that the drivers are forbidden from doing the stop/start act that Hamilton was doing on the weekend. Weaving to get heat into the tyres is fine but hard breaking is dangerous. Just ask Mark Webber.
I browsed through the FIA rule book looking for another matter and saw a bit that prohibits at least stopping and practising starts, so basically all the drivers are if not breaking the rules, but bending them quite far with accelerating and breaking hard.

[Whyzars]

Me thinks the OP who posted this thread is clutching at straws.

Huh? I have no idea what you mean by this.

I think the safety car is too slow and it represents risk.

There was an earlier post in which someone said driving the safety car faster would see the pack circulate faster and thus visit the scene of the incident more often. Very valid point as far as I can see.

Another post said that the safety car contains a doctor which is also good but wouldn't it make more sense to deliver the doctor to the incident scene rather than having him circum-ambulate the track?

Obviously having F1 cars circulating faster than they do now would need to provide some benefits before it could be adopted - I see that there are definite negatives in circulating slowly.

I simply suggested that the F1 circus should commission a vehicle specifically for safety car duties. It should be capable of travelling at speeds that allow sufficient airflow to cool engines/gearboxes and keep heat in the tyres. It should also be cornering at a rate more closely matched to F1 cars so they don't bunch up like they do now. It might turn out to be the worlds fastest omnibus but it will be purpose built for F1 and not represent a compromise or sponsorship dollars.

What exactly are the parameters of a good safety car? I don't know and maybe you could impart some of your wisdom to enlighten me. I'm sure the current Mercedes meets some of the criteria but a street car is never going to meet all of the criteria of the ideal safety car and that is what this thread is all about.

Not clutching at straws at all.

[janneppi]

The current safety car is hardly a standard street car, it's been built just for this job in mind, Berdt Maylander drives it prety much full speed in dry conditions, it's really wet when everything changes, having another car jsut for wet isn't practical.

http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/f1_safety_car.asp

[Dave B]

What about not having a SC, but instead equipping the race cars with a version of the pitlane speed limiter set so that they could not progess above a certain speed once they'd passed a signal.

[CarlMetro]

Strange but I thought the whole idea of the safety car was to slow the race cars down, to make it safer for the marshals to deal with an incident until the race director deemed it safe for the race cars to resume racing speeds again?

So how dumb would it be to make the 'safety' car capable of near race car speeds? Might as well not bother with the safety car altogether :rolleyes:

[Flat.tyres]

Strange but I thought the whole idea of the safety car was to slow the race cars down, to make it safer for the marshals to deal with an incident until the race director deemed it safe for the race cars to resume racing speeds again?

So how dumb would it be to make the 'safety' car capable of near race car speeds? Might as well not bother with the safety car altogether :rolleyes:

I agree.

Generally, the SC does a good enough job. On this occassion, it still did a good job but an unfortunate rookie made an understandable mistake in bad conditions. No real reason to change anything that I can see.

[Rollo]

Huh? I have no idea what you mean by this.
I think the safety car is too slow and it represents risk.


Why then in another thread do you say this?



I'll say it again - wet weather driving is safer because its slower.


Driving too slow represents risk but driving slower is safer? Um... I'm confused :crazy:

[BDunnell]

Strange but I thought the whole idea of the safety car was to slow the race cars down, to make it safer for the marshals to deal with an incident until the race director deemed it safe for the race cars to resume racing speeds again?

So how dumb would it be to make the 'safety' car capable of near race car speeds? Might as well not bother with the safety car altogether :rolleyes:

Exactly. :up:

In addition, there have been instances in the recent past where the safety car has been felt to have been going too quickly in wet conditions.

[Easy Drifter]

The safety car did not spin out but a couple of red cars did trying to keep up with it albeit before they put full wets on. I don't think there is a problem with the current car.

[Whyzars]

Driving too slow represents risk but driving slower is safer? Um... I'm confused :crazy:

The risk of the safety car is what happened to Mark Webber for one. You've got a different environment being created by the addition of a vehicle that could be more suitable if it was purpose built in my opinion.

Driving slower in the wet is safer from a potential injury perspective.

To summarise, driving too slow under SC increases the risk of an accident. Driving in the wet is slower under race conditions and an accident is less likely to kill you.

You really shouldn't pull posts from other threads when they are posted with a different context attached.

[Whyzars]

What about not having a SC, but instead equipping the race cars with a version of the pitlane speed limiter set so that they could not progess above a certain speed once they'd passed a signal.

That might be even better than any safety car could ever be. Give the responsibility for leading the pack to the lead driver.

[trumperZ06]

The current safety car is hardly a standard street car, it's been built just for this job in mind, Berdt Maylander drives it prety much full speed in dry conditions, it's really wet when everything changes, having another car jsut for wet isn't practical.

http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/f1_safety_car.asp

:D BINGO !!! The safety car pushes as hard as practicle, and is very well driven !!!



;) " If you are heating up the tires... you do it by accelerating & braking...

:p : Weaving back & forth... only removes the marbles " !!!

Oh... it's based on experience and I'm also quoting Carrol Smith !!!

[nigelred5]

The risk of the safety car is what happened to Mark Webber for one. You've got a different environment being created by the addition of a vehicle that could be more suitable if it was purpose built in my opinion. "

Perhaps the proper answer is the drivers should practice and the stwewards should enforce responsible behavior under the SAFETY car periods. The FIA should dictate what is allowed and what is not. Scrubbing tires is ok IMHO, heating tires and brakes in themanner they do, no.
The entire idea of the safety car is to reduce speeds to create a safer environment for track personnel to clear the track from an incident. Place a little more emphasis on drivers skill and make them re-start with cool brakes and tires. The problem is see is the FIA and F1 still don't really use the safety car and rolling re-starts properly. I'm not advocating the stupid estent that NASCAR uses the pace car, but that's what it is, a pace car. IT sets the safe pace others must follow. rather than pulling the SC from the tracks in the last few corners they should be diving for the pit and holding the pace until the pre determined re-start or S/F line. As long as the cars are behind the SC, speeds should not vary from that.



"Driving slower in the wet is safer from a potential injury perspective. "

And a common sense perspective, and a financial perspective. They should have been drying the track with safety vehicles and a track dryer the entire time the field was awaiting grid formation if it was too wet for FIA standards to go racing.


"To summarise, driving too slow under SC increases the risk of an accident."


No, I have to disagree with you on that one. The drivers behavior and tactics trying to catch other drivers out on re-starts under the safety car is what causes the accidents. Drivers from international series just don't know how to behave under the SC. That kind of accelerating and braking is what is dangerous. These cars have acceleration and deceleration rates that verge on the human limits. Maybe just maybe, they are still capable of stopping on colder brakes and tires??

A faster SAFETY car is pointless as it's SOLE purpose is the SLOW the cars down to SAFE SPEEDS.

Driving in the wet is slower under race conditions and an accident is less likely to kill you. Uh, ok.. check..



I've suggested using the pit speed limiters under yellow flag conditions before as well, but that starts to get a little "kart trackish". Maybe they should also institute the penalty box for rough driving like local kart tracks do. ;)

[nigelred5]

"
"The risk of the safety car is what happened to Mark Webber for one. You've got a different environment being created by the addition of a vehicle that could be more suitable if it was purpose built in my opinion. "

Perhaps the proper answer is the drivers should practice and the stwewards should enforce responsible behavior under the SAFETY car periods. The FIA should dictate what is allowed and what is not. Scrubbing tires is ok IMHO, heating tires and brakes in themanner they do, no.
The entire idea of the safety car is to reduce speeds to create a safer environment for track personnel to clear the track from an incident. Place a little more emphasis on drivers skill and make them re-start with cool brakes and tires. The problem is see is the FIA and F1 still don't really use the safety car and rolling re-starts properly. I'm not advocating the stupid estent that NASCAR uses the pace car, but that's what it is, a pace car. IT sets the safe pace others must follow. rather than pulling the SC from the tracks in the last few corners they should be diving for the pit and holding the pace until the pre determined re-start or S/F line. As long as the cars are behind the SC, speeds should not vary from that.



"Driving slower in the wet is safer from a potential injury perspective. "

And a common sense perspective, and a financial perspective. They should have been drying the track with safety vehicles and a track dryer the entire time the field was awaiting grid formation if it was too wet for FIA standards to go racing.


"To summarise, driving too slow under SC increases the risk of an accident."


No, I have to disagree with you on that one. The drivers behavior and tactics trying to catch other drivers out on re-starts under the safety car is what causes the accidents. Drivers from international series just don't know how to behave under the SC. That kind of accelerating and braking is what is dangerous. These cars have acceleration and deceleration rates that verge on the human limits. Maybe just maybe, they are still capable of stopping on colder brakes and tires??

A faster SAFETY car is pointless as it's SOLE purpose is the SLOW the cars down to SAFE SPEEDS.

Driving in the wet is slower under race conditions and an accident is less likely to kill you. Uh, ok.. check..





I've suggested using the pit speed limiters under yellow flag conditions before as well, but that starts to get a little "kart trackish". Maybe they should also institute the penalty box for rough driving like local kart tracks do. ;)