Nascar no longer uses a rule book

[harvick#1]

Bowyer won at Kansas.

Biffle ran out of fuel, dropped back to 4th at the line but was still given the win, he was unable to keep Pace Speed and was still allowed to win. :mark:

does Nascar have a rule book or is Heltons IQ a 0.

Clint, JJ, and Gordon are all correct from their statements saying Biffle never kept speed and should be dropped to 4th

[BobbyC]

They can pay $500 and file a protest, and that is expected.

[Racerbob]

harvick#1, you are exactly correct. NASCAR should be ashamed of themselves for how badly they run this sport. What would the call had been if Biffle ran out of gas in the back straight ? He still wins the race ? No way in my book. He deserves fourth in this race today. Bowyer won. 'nuff said.

[Lee Roy]

Think about it for a minute guys. Who do you think NASCAR would have preferred to win in Kansas? Ya reckon it might have been native son Boywer?

[MD24]

On Wind Tunnel they said that according to the "official rule" Biffle had to maintain cautious pace not pace car speed.
WTF is cautious pace?

[Hoss Ghoul]

Think about it for a minute guys. Who do you think NASCAR would have preferred to win in Kansas? Ya reckon it might have been native son Boywer?

I agree completely, however, this is not a case of "conspiracy theories", merely incompetence and inconsistency.

[Jonesi]

Think about it for a minute guys. Who do you think NASCAR would have preferred to win in Kansas? Ya reckon it might have been native son Boywer?

I've come to find that most conspiracys are done for CYA. The officials were probably in "I'm soooo glad that's finally over" mode, had taken the headsets off, didn't see the slowdown themselves, and like most officials will never admit it. ;-)

[SmokeFan20]

NASCAR screwed two drivers in this race.
First Tony Stewart & then Clint Bowyer.

The race should have been called after the 2nd red flag. There was no way in hell they were gonna get the race in before darkness. They had to shorten the race distance twice and it was still way too dark out to run the race.
What was the point of running what, 30 more laps (Well NASCAR's two favorite golden boy clones would have finished a lap down at the back of the pack if they called the race.... And we couldn't have that happening now could we....)

Then to top it all off, those aholes that runthe three ring circus known as NASCAR let Biffle keep the win even thought he didn't take the checkered flag or maintain pace car speed (Hell. His car wasn't even on the track when it finally crossed the finish line for crying out loud)
Boywer should have been sitting in victory lane.

Yet another race added to the NASCAR "Officiating Hall of Shame".

[harvick#1]

On Wind Tunnel they said that according to the "official rule" Biffle had to maintain cautious pace not pace car speed.
WTF is cautious pace?

:confused:

cautious pace :mark:

I've always thought that a driver has to maintain pace car speed, so now, next fuel milage race, you'll see the leader running 10 MPH and coast to the win, all he has to say is I was driving a cautious pace for my car.

Bowyer got screwed

[DavePI2]

and nascar fans wonder why others question if it is on the level or not.

[muggle not]

Stupid mover by Tony and his crew chief to stay out on the track. They not only screwed themselves but took out a bunch of other contenders.
i'll bet there is a vote up tomorrow on who won the race and Bowyer will get the most votes hands down.

[e2mtt]

WOW.

NASCAR just make CRAP up these days. First, absolutly right, Tony should have won. He had it when the rain hit, and as darkness rolled in, NASCAR knew they couldn't finish the race distance well before they restarted it.

But then they restarted, and REALLY screwed Boyer. He should be looking at his second chase win. But no, they to go and award the win to a guy who ran out of fuel under caution before he took the checker??? What the...!!!! It was only 2? months ago that Robby Gordon was ordered back 15 spots for "not maintaining pace" at Montreal.

Absolutly unreal. Rule book in pencil? HA. Decided on the spot, and tonight Helton was drunk.

Here is a serious point: it has gotten bad enough that NASCAR needs to be put on notice by somebody (Congress, the Nevada Gaming Commision, whoever polices things like this) that they are going to only be considered "entertainment" (like pro-wrestling & Survivor) and not actual "sports events" like football, baseball, or golf.

[Hoss Ghoul]

and nascar fans wonder why others question if it is on the level or not.

NASCAR fans are the ones who started and have always questioned things like this.

I'd say 95% of the time a strange call is on the level, the other 5% is incompetence, idiocy, ego, and $$$$. Not much worse than what goes on in any sport(or racing series) at that rate.

[muggle not]

Totally disagree. This is the chase and the race should not be prematurely called. There was absolutely no reason to call the race and they were right to continue to a point of darkness and then call it.

[Hoss Ghoul]

Totally disagree. This is the chase and the race should not be prematurely called. There was absolutely no reason to call the race and they were right to continue to a point of darkness and then call it.

I agree with you. The distance they set(lap 25) would have made for over 70 laps of racing, so, at least one more pit stop...that is a long enough period to see it as a natural conclusion to the race. The drivers have some responsibility here too, and they F'ed it up on the first lap back under green racing like idiots 3 wide on a green track.

The only calls I don't like by NASCAR here was the decision to not have a GWC(as that is standard procedure) and to overlook and/or have an unclear rule as it relates to Bifle's inability to maintain a proper speed under caution.

The reason this is all so clear is the obvious fact that Bifle should NOT have been the winner in the "moral" sense, due to the above mentioned circumstances and the inference that he clearly would not have been able to run the last 4 laps if Montoya had not brought out a caution. That is slightly immaterial, but it cannot help but to color everyone's perception of the race.

[muggle not]

That really pretty well sums it up.


I agree with you. The distance they set(lap 25) would have made for over 70 laps of racing, so, at least one more pit stop...that is a long enough period to see it as a natural conclusion to the race. The drivers have some responsibility here too, and they F'ed it up on the first lap back under green racing like idiots 3 wide on a green track.

The only calls I don't like by NASCAR here was the decision to not have a GWC(as that is standard procedure) and to overlook and/or have an unclear rule as it relates to Bifle's inability to maintain a proper speed under caution.

The reason this is all so clear is the obvious fact that Bifle should NOT have been the winner in the "moral" sense, due to the above mentioned circumstances and the inference that he clearly would not have been able to run the last 4 laps if Montoya had not brought out a caution. That is slightly immaterial, but it cannot help but to color everyone's perception of the race.

[truefan72]

I have never commented on the NASCAR thread but this Biffle incident is beyond ridiculous. He couldn't maintain the pace car speed and ran out of gas. What was the rest of the field supposed to do, follow him at 25 mph ?

ridiuculous

he shouldn't have won

NASCAR with immediate effect needs to set a minimum pace speed

[harvick#1]

I can't believe Biffle even quoted saying that he could've passed the pace car if he wanted too. what total BS his car was out of fuel and couldn't be refired.

[MD24]

http://www.nascar.com/POLLSERVER/results/34670.html

[call_me_andrew]

WTF is cautious pace?

Cautious pace: No faster than the pace car, but still traveling forward. It doesn't matter if he's crossing the line on the starter motor. As long as he can finish with out a push, he wins.

Biffle is still moving forward, thus voiding any one's attempt to pass.

[Lee Roy]

The only calls I don't like by NASCAR here was the decision to not have a GWC(as that is standard procedure) and to overlook and/or have an unclear rule as it relates to Bifle's inability to maintain a proper speed under caution.


So, you would prefer that the cars race in the dark on an unlighted track?

[Lee Roy]

Cautious pace: No faster than the pace car, but still traveling forward. It doesn't matter if he's crossing the line on the starter motor. As long as he can finish with out a push, he wins.

Biffle is still moving forward, thus voiding any one's attempt to pass.

Bingo.

If they had given Bowyer the win, half the people here would be complaining about Biffle being screwed because he was leading when the yellow came out.

[harvick#1]

Cautious pace: No faster than the pace car, but still traveling forward. It doesn't matter if he's crossing the line on the starter motor. As long as he can finish with out a push, he wins.

Biffle is still moving forward, thus voiding any one's attempt to pass.

hmm. so Robby Gordon gets dropped 15 spots at Montreal for not keeping Pace Speed, but in Nextel Cup, you only need to drive in a Cautious Speed.

[MD24]

Statement from Ramsey Poston, NASCAR Managing Director, Corporate Communications:

“When the caution came out on Lap 207 the field was frozen. At the time of the caution, the #16 was in the lead and maintained a reasonable speed and was declared the race winner. There is no passing under caution. “By rule, cars under caution need to maintain a reasonable speed, which the #16 did. If it hadn’t maintained a reasonable speed or the car had come to a stop, then that car would not have won the race. In this instance the #16 maintained a reasonable speed, crossed the finish and won the race

[BobbyC]

Despite the statement I think we are going to see hearings this week after numerous protests were filed.

The NASCAR rule books at many short tracks that use the Whelen All-American Series rule book states a protest can be filed within ten minutes of a checkered flag, and I will not be surprised to see hearings because the #48 clearly stated they were filing a protest.

[harvick#1]

Statement from Ramsey Poston, NASCAR Managing Director, Corporate Communications:

“When the caution came out on Lap 207 the field was frozen. At the time of the caution, the #16 was in the lead and maintained a reasonable speed and was declared the race winner. There is no passing under caution. “By rule, cars under caution need to maintain a reasonable speed, which the #16 did. If it hadn’t maintained a reasonable speed or the car had come to a stop, then that car would not have won the race. In this instance the #16 maintained a reasonable speed, crossed the finish and won the race

so reasonable speed I guess is 20 MPH slower than Pace Speed :rolleyes:

boy is this gonna be a fallout for the next fuel milage races

[SnailMale]

Going with the fact that NASCAR states Biffle was carrying enough speed, should'nt this mean the Bowyer, Johnson, etc. be penalized for passing under yellow?

[tstran17_88]

NASCAR screwed two drivers in this race.
First Tony Stewart :rolleyes:

It's called karma...and it finally came back to bite Smoke in the arse! :D

[tstran17_88]

Going with the fact that NASCAR states Biffle was carrying enough speed, should'nt this mean the Bowyer, Johnson, etc. be penalized for passing under yellow?That was my thought when I saw those two and Mears passing Biffle.

My next thought when they said Biff had won was WTF??? He ran out of gas!

[harvick#1]

Going with the fact that NASCAR states Biffle was carrying enough speed, should'nt this mean the Bowyer, Johnson, etc. be penalized for passing under yellow?

actually Johnson passed Bowyer also under caution right before the line, but Bowyer was running Pace Speed, Biffle meanwhile, umm was out of fuel

[Sparky1329]

Going with the fact that NASCAR states Biffle was carrying enough speed, should'nt this mean the Bowyer, Johnson, etc. be penalized for passing under yellow?

Normally you would think so. I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to happen though. Maintaining a cautious pace is defined as whatever NASCAR wants it to be.

Richard Childress said it best. "Childress emerged from within the NASCAR truck. "They thought [Biffle] maintained a reasonable speed crossing the finish line.," he said. "It's their call. And Greg had it won if they hadn't run out of gas. They make a call. You've got to live with it."

[ACTF_ZETT]

I am 25 years old and have been watching racing for 25 years (yes I only remember about 17 of them but still).

I guess I just dont understand racing anymore. I cant stand these competition yellows, I cant stand it that we have red flags EVERY race, I cant stand the green white checkered, I cant stand the frozen field BS.

Who knows the rules of this damn sport? I know I dont. I thought I had a understanding, but I guess I dont. No one does because they wont publish the rule book.

First of all, HOW CAN YOU NOT CROSS THE FINISH LINE FIRST AND WIN THE RACE? Has this ever happened before anywhere? In any type of racing? WTF? I was so upset by the end of this race that I almost puked.

I run in an online racing league Sunday nights. Before the race this sunday I called that I get to win the race even if I dont cross the finish line first.

It comes down to this. He ran out of gas, it was obvious. Hes a liar for saying he had gas to go out and do a burnout. When has a driver ever, EVER slowed down and let cars pass him before the checkered flag????? Biffle is a liar, and I dont blame him because I would try pulling the same thing. He got away with it, good for him. As a race fan I am too smart for it. Apparently NASCAR isnt.

NASCAR needs to take a page from the IRL. The decision made at the time is not always correct, and in a case like this it should be reversed. IRL has done this in the past. Heck they had the balls to black flag Scott Goodyear for passing the pace car off of turn 4 and took away the Indy 500 win from him. When has NASCAR made a bold (correctly bold) move like this? Seriously.

If it was up to me, I would drop Biffle back for running out of gas to the spot he held on the track when he crossed the finish line. Because of confusion The rest of the field would remain frozen, giving 07 the win, 48 second, and so on. I dont think you can penalize 48 and other cars for passing because they could keep braking and cause an under caution wreck, or remain the pace speed.



Ok to sum up my long post, NASCAR needs to publish their damn rule book. That is the main problem here. Also we need to end the BS officiating. A red flag used to be a huge deal, now we have one every week. We end every damn race under a green white checkered. If a race is 400 miles, run it 400 miles. Dont change rules just because some fans throw garbage on a track. We dont need competition yellows every race, we know how the tires are going to wear by now. This is frusturating.

Giving the 16 this win is rediculous, I really hope to see a heavy protest, but I expect NASCAR will just shrug it off.

Also nice lie by Jeff Burton, LOL. Cant blame him for lying there also to try to cover his a$$, even though it was a stupid move to pull the fender, which he didnt need to do.

[Jonesi]

NascarNow just had an interesting phone discussion with Jack Roush. He was VERY diplomatic (and I'm sure will take any gift Nascar gives him), but it was clear he didn't understand nor agree with Nascar's call on the finish. I have to respect his honesty, in a situation where most owners would have just said "Of course Nascar made the right decision".

[Lee Roy]

INASCAR needs to take a page from the IRL. The decision made at the time is not always correct, and in a case like this it should be reversed. IRL has done this in the past. Heck they had the balls to black flag Scott Goodyear for passing the pace car off of turn 4 and took away the Indy 500 win from him. When has NASCAR made a bold (correctly bold) move like this? Seriously.

First, the IRL is a joke. The last thing that NASCAR needs to do is "take a page" from that loser of an organization.

Second. The incident with Scott Goodyear that you mentioned happened in 1995. The Irrelevant Racing League didn't exist until 1996.

[jslone]

How much definition does a fan need on this,I mean whats the difference between pace speed,carrying enough speed,and being a danger to the drivers?Seems to me that Sniffle was a danger at that point and the win should not be allowed.

[call_me_andrew]

First of all, HOW CAN YOU NOT CROSS THE FINISH LINE FIRST AND WIN THE RACE? Has this ever happened before anywhere? In any type of racing? WTF? I was so upset by the end of this race that I almost puked.

Actually, something similar has happened. In the 1966 24 Hours of Le Mans, Ford GT40's were running 1-2-3 at the finish. Ford used team orders to organize the cars for a fauxto finish [I hearby trademark that word], but Ford didn't realize the scoring system took the amount of distance between a car's starting spot against the pole sitter's starting spot into account. So while Ken Miles crossed the finish line first, Bruce McLaren and Chris Amon were deemed the winners as they were only half a car length behind. Ford either didn't realize how the timing and scoring system worked, or didn't realize they were still on the same lap.

I think it's possible that Biffle wasn't really out of fuel anyway. He took a really sharp turn into the grass as soon as he crossed the line. Unless he's the terminator, I don't think he could make a turn that sharp with out power steering.

[Lee Roy]

Actually, something similar has happened. In the 1966 24 Hours of Le Mans, Ford GT40's were running 1-2-3 at the finish. Ford used team orders to organize the cars for a fauxto finish [I hearby trademark that word], but Ford didn't realize the scoring system took the amount of distance between a car's starting spot against the pole sitter's starting spot into account. So while Ken Miles crossed the finish line first, Bruce McLaren and Chris Amon were deemed the winners as they were only half a car length behind. Ford either didn't realize how the timing and scoring system worked, or didn't realize they were still on the same lap.


F1 also used to use a system where if a race needed to be red-flagged during the race and then re-started, the time between the cars at the time the red-flag was waved would be taken into consideration during the portion of the race after the red-flag period.

In other words, if Driver A was 10 seconds ahead of Driver B at the red-flag, and at the end of the portion of the race after the red-flag Driver B was ahead of Driver A at the checkered flag, Driver A would still be declared the winner, even though he would have finished second at the flag.

Not sure if it ever worked out that way in any particular race, but that's the way the rules were written. They've been changed now.

[RaceFanStan]

I have been mute on this issue because I am so disgusted by it ... :s
a couple of days have went by but I still feel like I was robbed ...

NASCAR keeps making calls that are completely wrong ...
this latest fiasco is just too ridiculous to merit defending NASCAR ...

NASCAR blew it on 2 main issues ... (there are other issues but these are the prominent 2)
1. a green-white-checkered was mandated but NASCAR rewrote the rules to suit themselves ...
NASCAR made the green-white-checkered rule & it has always been enforced until Kansas ...
2. the winner DIDN'T cross the finishline 1st ... that is the 1st rule of racing ...
either the declared winner wasn't really the race winner or else ...
the drivers who passed him under caution have to be penalized !
NASCAR can't have it both ways & maintain any credibility

I keep asking myself "What stupid thing will NASCAR do next ?" http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif
I am not looking forward to NASCAR's next stupid action, someone needs to be fired imo ... http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif
NASCAR is turning into a ridiculous soap opera & I am getting tired of the plot twists ... http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/s.gif
I am neither amused nor am I entertained, NASCAR got it wrong @ Kansas ! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[Lee Roy]

INASCAR blew it on 2 main issues ... (there are other issues but these are the prominent 2)
1. a green-white-checkered was mandated but NASCAR rewrote the rules to suit themselves ...
NASCAR made the green-white-checkered rule & it has always been enforced until Kansas ...


I think that the GWC thing was called off due to impending darkness. Having a GWC on a dark track without lights would be criminal.

Don't be fooled by how light it looks on TV. Cameras can be deceiving.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, First off. Biffle WAS out of gas. He can BS all he wants, but that is the truth. It explains why he dropped to the apron coming to the line, because on the flat, he might have sloshed enough gas in a pick up to restart the motor. That didn't happen.

Secondly, with all the crap with the rainouts and then the impending dark, it was obvious NASCAR was playing all sorts of games to try to maximize the laps run for legitimacy, while not calling the race because impending dark sooner. NASCAR got caught with their pants down. They had never forseen this situation before, and to an point, should be given a pass. IT was about the wackiest end to a race I have seen in a while.

Now, should Biffle get the win? Nope, but that is up to Johnson to protest. That said, he and two or three others passed Biff under the yellow and THAT is against the rules too. So I guess they all should be docked and Casey Mears should be the winner since he maintained his position behind Biffle to the line.....

Would Johnson want to take the penalty in points or drop in position for passing Biffle under the Yellow? Bet your Butt he don't....so lets just drop the fiction that someone is out to get him or Bowyer.

It was one of those decisions that wasn't going to make anyone happy, and NASCAR decided because of the loopy way the race ended, they would just stick with the status quo. Does it stink? Ya...it does, but when the yellow came out, that was the running order and the fans saw the last change in position under race conditions. NASCAR has a history of trying to give the fans the best possible finish and the last changes for position were under a green flag, not a rules infraction fest where they put 4 guys in different spots for not maintaining pace car speed or passing under the yellow.

Lets get real here, if any of this is a great surprise to you, you need to grow up. NASCAR has always changed rules on the fly, and is very cagy about what the rules are because they reserve the right to change and call things to match the conditions at that moment. 95% of the time what they call may not be what you thought it was, but it is in the spirit of competition and what is fair to everyone. Here.....I kind of get where they were going, but I question why they put everyone in this situation in the first place. Live and learn I guess....

[RaceFanStan]

NASCAR loves to see such loyal fans ...
NASCAR feeds those fans BS & they eagerly eat it up ...
get ready as I'm convinced there is more BS coming ...
let's see if the gullible ones will eat that too ...

Kansas was a BS race with a BS ending IMO !!! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif
NASCAR made several wrong calls ...
the worst was allowing Biffle to STEAL the win with an EMPTY gas tank. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/s.gif

[Sparky1329]

Here's my question. What if Biffle couldn't make it to the checkered flag? Would he still be declared the winner even if he wasn't capable of actually taking the flag?

[RaceFanStan]

A few years ago Jeff Burton crashed & tore his car up (#99 Exide/Roush) ...
immediately NASCAR threw the yellow & almost instantly the rain began pouring ...
NASCAR then went to an immediate red flag ...
with Jeff Burton still leading the race with the right front tire unable to roll ...
the race was called due to rain & Jeff Burton won ...
I always thought that was the biggest BS thing NASCAR could have done ...
but after Kansas & Biffle, they have topped it. :s

[Jonesi]

Here's my question. What if Biffle couldn't make it to the checkered flag? Would he still be declared the winner even if he wasn't capable of actually taking the flag?

That one's easy, No he wouldn't, because he didn't maintain a reasonable speed behind the pace car. There's no gray area there, almost everyone agrees stopping isn't maintaining a speed. It's dropping off the pace car speed to about half, and pulling out of line that's the question. Without the rule book in hand and reading the exact wording, we'll never know if Nascar correctly applied what is probably poorly worded rules.

[Lee Roy]

That one's easy, No he wouldn't, because he didn't maintain a reasonable speed behind the pace car. There's no gray area there, almost everyone agrees stopping isn't maintaining a speed. It's dropping off the pace car speed to about half, and pulling out of line that's the question. Without the rule book in hand and reading the exact wording, we'll never know if Nascar correctly applied what is probably poorly worded rules.

If NASCAR had awarded the race to those who passed Biffle, the same people would be complaining that NASCAR screwed Biffle by awarding the race to someone who passed the leader under caution while the leader was still moving.

It was a strange situation and NASCAR did the best they could with it. No matter what would have happened, people wouldn't have liked it.

[Old3Fan]

I have been telling you all for years now that Nascar isn't about racing, it is about putting on a show. Banging fenders, close racing, close finishes, (both the close racing and close finishes helped out by way of to many mysterious yellows), and of course alot of spectacular crashes. Lets go back to just plain racing. Best driver in best prepared car produced by best team and do away with this lucky dog BS and side by side starts and restarts unless the are positioned like the race start which would be side by side 1,2,3,4,5.....Etc. And oh yeah, drop this race to the chase crapola. If the final winner is 500 points or better ahead of the second place finisher, then thats the way it goes. The bestest and fastest over the season should be the winner..........PERIOD. THAT'S RACING!

[muggle not]

I have been telling you all for years now that Nascar isn't about racing, it is about putting on a show. Banging fenders, close racing, close finishes, (both the close racing and close finishes helped out by way of to many mysterious yellows), and of course alot of spectacular crashes. Lets go back to just plain racing. Best driver in best prepared car produced by best team and do away with this lucky dog BS and side by side starts and restarts unless the are positioned like the race start which would be side by side 1,2,3,4,5.....Etc. And oh yeah, drop this race to the chase crapola. If the final winner is 500 points or better ahead of the second place finisher, then thats the way it goes. The bestest and fastest over the season should be the winner..........PERIOD. THAT'S RACING!
You are absolutely correct. Unfortunately there are some that like all the manufactured crap................ole chubby cheeks got em' Hook, Line, and Sinker.

[call_me_andrew]

Well, First off. Biffle WAS out of gas. He can BS all he wants, but that is the truth. It explains why he dropped to the apron coming to the line, because on the flat, he might have sloshed enough gas in a pick up to restart the motor. That didn't happen.

If Biffle was that low on gas, he would have been on the apron for the last coupple of laps. He spent the last lap at least 3 car widths above the apron and to the pace car's right.

[jslone]

If Biffle was that low on gas, he would have been on the apron for the last coupple of laps. He spent the last lap at least 3 car widths above the apron and to the pace car's right.

This goes back to my question,what then is a safe speed?And if the other 3 cars were passing Snifle legally cus he was on the apron,what speed were they doing?Now I would love to see where the so called camera was when the field was supposedly frozen,meaning that who was first at that point?If thats the case then snifle won or not?