Ferrari cheating...

[Hondo]

Thought the rain might slack off so they put on the intermediates. Didn't know about the orders from race control for all teams to start with the extreme wet tires. Didn't notice 10 other teams up and down the paddock putting extreme wets on their cars and wondering why. Forgot they were one of the teams that in 2006, agreed that e-mail distribution of messages such as this was just dandy and written notice wasn't necessary. Didn't have anyone monitoring the computers. Nope, they were all over in the corner having a prayer meeting and sing-along.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....cheaters. Well, it's ok, it backfired on them anyway.

Rumor:

Responding to a formal complaint from one J. Todt that God, in violation of sporting regulation 151c, intentionally and knowingly interferred with the weather conditions causing practice 3 to be cancelled which deprived Ferrari of the critical set-up development time it needed to fairly compete for the pole of the Japanese Grand Prix, M. Mosely has summoned the Pope, in his capacity as the Vicar of Christ on Earth, to Paris to appear before the FIA Marsupial Marionettes to answer the charges. Although being promised a full and unbiased hearing, his Eminence has been advised to bring his checkbook and the deed to South America.

When it was pointed out that the conditions were the same for everybody, Mr. Todt answered "We are not everybody, we are FERRAI damn it!"

[BDunnell]

I think you should be hauled in front of the FIA for bringing the sport into disrepute with your remarks above, Fiero. The punishment? Well, I suggest removing your arms, but not your legs. Seems fair to me.

[cy bais]

Lol :)

[rohanweb]

Jean Todt and the gang ARE cheaters anyway!
always on the lookout to exploit something each time..

this time they may have thought track will dry up a bit and thier cars can do a runaway to victory! hehehe...

once again its back fired..

[rohanweb]

I think you should be hauled in front of the FIA for bringing the sport into disrepute with your remarks above, Fiero. The punishment? Well, I suggest removing your arms, but not your legs. Seems fair to me.

absolutely YES.
McLaren should take'em to court for that.. Accused

[gm99]

Considering McLaren got a penalty at the Hungaroring for disadvantaging one of their drivers (LH) over the other (FA), I hope the FIA will look into why Ferrari today were disadvantaging FM over KR by calling him in for an extra pit-stop just before the end of the race. Maybe Ferrari should not receive any constructors' points this week-end (not that it would make much of a difference, anyway).

[jas123f1]

KR:
... we didn’t know any e-mails or any new rules that came up and they somehow forgot to tell us, but it’s quite an unfair situation to end up with, them forcing you to stop when you don’t really want to - but that’s now behind us.. (FIA actually send the e-mail to Ferrari 5 minutes after the start? )

[BriannaBee]

Considering McLaren got a penalty at the Hungaroring for disadvantaging one of their drivers (LH) over the other (FA), I hope the FIA will look into why Ferrari today were disadvantaging FM over KR by calling him in for an extra pit-stop just before the end of the race. Maybe Ferrari should not receive any constructors' points this week-end (not that it would make much of a difference, anyway).
Massa didn't have an extra pitstop. He had a drive through penalty for passing behind the safety car and served it on lap 20. Kimi pitted on laps 3, 14 and 40 and Massa pitted on laps 2, 15 and 58. There was no way they could make it from lap 15 to the end of the race without refueling.

[Ranger]

For whatever reasons, Ferrari sure had a cock-up yesterday. Disgraceful.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Hasnt the FIA admitted there was a problem with the email?

[Hawkmoon]

Thought the rain might slack off so they put on the intermediates. Didn't know about the orders from race control for all teams to start with the extreme wet tires. Didn't notice 10 other teams up and down the paddock putting extreme wets on their cars and wondering why. Forgot they were one of the teams that in 2006, agreed that e-mail distribution of messages such as this was just dandy and written notice wasn't necessary. Didn't have anyone monitoring the computers. Nope, they were all over in the corner having a prayer meeting and sing-along.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....cheaters. Well, it's ok, it backfired on them anyway.

Rumor:

Responding to a formal complaint from one J. Todt that God, in violation of sporting regulation 151c, intentionally and knowingly interferred with the weather conditions causing practice 3 to be cancelled which deprived Ferrari of the critical set-up development time it needed to fairly compete for the pole of the Japanese Grand Prix, M. Mosely has summoned the Pope, in his capacity as the Vicar of Christ on Earth, to Paris to appear before the FIA Marsupial Marionettes to answer the charges. Although being promised a full and unbiased hearing, his Eminence has been advised to bring his checkbook and the deed to South America.

When it was pointed out that the conditions were the same for everybody, Mr. Todt answered "We are not everybody, we are FERRAI damn it!"

How about you get off your high horse and look at the facts before posting stuff like this? Ferrari didn't get the email about the tyres until seven minutes after the start of the race.

They weren't trying to cheat at all. They gambled and lost. Bad luck.

The FIA have acknowledged the problem and will modify their procedures from know on, as per this:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62904

[truefan72]

How about you get off your high horse and look at the facts before posting stuff like this? Ferrari didn't get the email about the tyres until seven minutes after the start of the race.

They weren't trying to cheat at all. They gambled and lost. Bad luck.

Thee FIA have acknowledged the problem and will modify their procedures from know on, as per this:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62904

And quite naturally you completely beleive the FIArrari version of events

When 10 other teams seemed to have gotten the notice and acted accordingly.

How would the FIA forget to tell the 3rd and 4th placed drivers on the grid about the tyre rules.

Either they did it deliberatley to allow Ferrari an advantageous opportunity or they didn't forget and Ferrari are lying to cover up their cheating.

The only thing that got in their way was the weather. I'm sure the Fia wouldn't have done a thing if the conditions got better, allowing them to use the convenient excuses they mustered up.

For all of McClaren's Alleged cheating, it is Ferrari who used a movable floor, and now clearly broke a rule. Both cases in an attempt to illegaly gain and advantage. :down:

[Ranger]

Whatever way you look at it, Ferrari were just crap today.

Just about the only thing James Allen said right yesterday was that Ferrari will be wondering where Ross Brawn is. Their fuel strategy was crap, their pitstops were crap, and then they go earning themselves a few drive-throughs. The tyre thing was only one setback - the rest they brought apon themselves.

[Hawkmoon]

And quite naturally you completely beleive the FIArrari version of events

When 10 other teams seemed to have gotten the notice and acted accordingly.

How would the FIA forget to tell the 3rd and 4th placed drivers on the grid about the tyre rules.

Either they did it deliberatley to allow Ferrari an advantageous opportunity or they didn't forget and Ferrari are lying to cover up their cheating.

The only thing that got in their way was the weather. I'm sure the Fia wouldn't have done a thing if the conditions got better, allowing them to use the convenient excuses they mustered up.

For all of McClaren's Alleged cheating, it is Ferrari who used a movable floor, and now clearly broke a rule. Both cases in an attempt to illegaly gain and advantage. :down:

Did you read the story? THe FIA have acknowledged the problem and are going to change their procedure. Isn't that enough for you?

The statement from the race stewards concludes:


To avoid any recurrence of today's problem, the agreed method of using electronic communications will continue to be used but in the future will be backed up by the traditional method of written confirmation.


Ferrari did nothing illegal. They gambled and lost.

[tinchote]

Did you read the story? THe FIA have acknowledged the problem and are going to change their procedure. Isn't that enough for you?



Nothing will be enough.

Browse the forums a little and you'll find people who say it's obvious that FIA are blatantly committed to LH winning, and at then you'll also find people talking about "FIArrari". All very obvious :rolleyes:

It will always be here. People will always choose the conspiracy theory or the cheating accusations over the simple and direct explanations :s

[truefan72]

Did you read the story? THe FIA have acknowledged the problem and are going to change their procedure. Isn't that enough for you?


No, I simply don't beleive what the FIA is saying


Ferrari did nothing illegal. They gambled and lost.

IMO they did do something illegal and the weather foiled them. So if the weather improved and they went on to pass all cars and gain a sizable advantage on the rest of the field, what would have been the recourse?

I'm pretty sure at that point with all the teams protesting, the FIA would say that they DID send the memo and that Ferrari's excuse of not getting it would not suffice as an answer.

You can't just dismiss the situation because it ended up not benefiting Ferrari.

I seem to recall a similar situation with a team being fined $100 million despite no proof of the malfeasance benefiting the company.

[Hawkmoon]

No, I simply don't beleive what the FIA is saying



IMO they did do something illegal and the weather foiled them. So if the weather improved and they went on to pass all cars and gain a sizable advantage on the rest of the field, what would have been the recourse?

I'm pretty sure at that point with all the teams protesting, the FIA would say that they DID send the memo and that Ferrari's excuse of not getting it would not suffice as an answer.

You can't just dismiss the situation because it ended up not benefiting Ferrari.

I seem to recall a similar situation with a team being fined $100 million despite no proof of the malfeasance benefiting the company.

Come on! The Ferrari's stopped for full wets on laps 2 and 3 after Charlie Whiting told them that if they didn't they'd be black flagged. So they were never going to be allowed to continue regardless of the weather.

[truefan72]

OK were they asked to stop by Charlie Whiting or did they have to come in since, FM and KT nearly spun out several times because of the intermediate's

Eitherway a bizarre situation,

good discussion Hawkmoon :up:

[ShiftingGears]

Incompetence from the stewards/Whiting. Irritating as it has pretty much sealed their WDC hopes.

[tinchote]

Incompetence from the stewards/Whiting. Irritating as it has pretty much sealed their WDC hopes.

What's amazing is that they noticed the Ferraris were on intermediates in just a couple laps, but they wouldn't notice that in the grid?

[ShiftingGears]

Damn right!

Oh well, at least I felt some emotion from that race. The previous few races were just...sterile, in comparison.

[Hondo]

That was actually a sarcastic little dribble to start with, which I thought the bit with the Pope would give away. Sort of a satire on some of ioan's stuff lately.

Although I would wonder why, if the notice was sent out to all the teams at the same time, using a system they have used all season, all of a sudden Ferrari doesn't get their email in time....naw, there's a rat there. It's pretty obvious that Ferrari thought their drivers would have an advantage on the intermediates or they would have sent them out on the extremes anyway. As far as what time the Ferrari system shows it got the e-mail...who knows. My computer will time and date stuff with whatever time and date the system thinks it is.

[rickos]

How about you get off your high horse and look at the facts before posting stuff like this? Ferrari didn't get the email about the tyres until seven minutes after the start of the race.

They weren't trying to cheat at all. They gambled and lost. Bad luck.

The FIA have acknowledged the problem and will modify their procedures from know on, as per this:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62904

I can work for Ferarri because I too know where my delete key is on my keyboard. I also know how to empty my Recycle Bin. And naturally, these things only happen to Ferarri because they exist on a different plane.

..... :s mokin:

[Hondo]

Ferrari has found a mysterious white powder on their computer used for official e-mails...stay tuned for future developments.

[mstillhere]

Jean Todt and the gang ARE cheaters anyway!
always on the lookout to exploit something each time..

this time they may have thought track will dry up a bit and thier cars can do a runaway to victory! hehehe...

once again its back fired..

The true nature of the McLaren fans finally came out. Defending to death their team with 100's of Ferrari documents in their offices. And look at you now. With somesthing as stupid as this, calling Ferrari chetaers. REMEMBER THAT THIS YEAR FERRARI WINS ANYWAY. EITHER WITH WITH THE F2007 SPEC A (that's the red car) OR THE SPEC B (that's the silver one).
PS Why is it that RD has to dish out $100 and why are their two pilots still allowed to drive.Hummm....I wonder.......

[Hawkmoon]

OK were they asked to stop by Charlie Whiting or did they have to come in since, FM and KT nearly spun out several times because of the intermediate's

Eitherway a bizarre situation,

good discussion Hawkmoon :up:

I pretty sure that both Massa and Raikkonen have said that the stewards told them to stop and ITV also said that anyone running on inters would be black flagged.

I think whomever at Ferrari is responsible for checking the race control emails should get a kick in the arse. That's a procedural thing and it's not the first time this season that Ferrari have blundered in this area (Massa's lack of fuel in Hungary qualifying for example).

The choice of starting with inters looks bad in hindsight but I think it was probably worth the gamble. I would have put Massa on the inters and Raikkonen on the wets to hedge my bets but hey, it's all academic now.

[Tazio]

The choice of starting with inters looks bad in hindsight but I think it was probably worth the gamble. I would have put Massa on the inters and Raikkonen on the wets to hedge my bets but hey, it's all academic now.
The thing is I thought that Ferrari were going to take a big tactical gamble when they started to peel in. But I realized that though they took on fuel it was so little (3 seconds maybe less) that they weren't willing to take the chance that they would run behind the safety car as long as they did. or were willing to gamble that it would stay wet long enough to run heavy in the first(actually the second)stint.
That, barring a penalty for starting on inter's could have really played into their hand. And, that's a big "IF", because there ended up being quite a few cars running heavy that they would need to pass on track. However this is a tactic, imo, that Ross Braun would have tried.
Possibly!!!
Never the less they need him back, because Todt is not nearly the tactition!

[mstillhere]

I pretty sure that both Massa and Raikkonen have said that the stewards told them to stop and ITV also said that anyone running on inters would be black flagged.

I think whomever at Ferrari is responsible for checking the race control emails should get a kick in the arse. That's a procedural thing and it's not the first time this season that Ferrari have blundered in this area (Massa's lack of fuel in Hungary qualifying for example).

The choice of starting with inters looks bad in hindsight but I think it was probably worth the gamble. I would have put Massa on the inters and Raikkonen on the wets to hedge my bets but hey, it's all academic now.

Fair enough!!

[ioan]

Whatever way you look at it, Ferrari were just crap today.

Yeah sure, coming 3rd and 6th after being sent to the back of the grid and given penalties and so on by the FIA is crapy in comparison with winning from the front with only one stop and with your closest competitors forced to the back of the grid.

Nice way of thinking! As you say it depends how you look at it, but than consider ALL the POVs! ;)

[ioan]

Thought the rain might slack off so they put on the intermediates. Didn't know about the orders from race control for all teams to start with the extreme wet tires. Didn't notice 10 other teams up and down the paddock putting extreme wets on their cars and wondering why. Forgot they were one of the teams that in 2006, agreed that e-mail distribution of messages such as this was just dandy and written notice wasn't necessary. Didn't have anyone monitoring the computers. Nope, they were all over in the corner having a prayer meeting and sing-along.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....cheaters. Well, it's ok, it backfired on them anyway.

Rumor:

Responding to a formal complaint from one J. Todt that God, in violation of sporting regulation 151c, intentionally and knowingly interferred with the weather conditions causing practice 3 to be cancelled which deprived Ferrari of the critical set-up development time it needed to fairly compete for the pole of the Japanese Grand Prix, M. Mosely has summoned the Pope, in his capacity as the Vicar of Christ on Earth, to Paris to appear before the FIA Marsupial Marionettes to answer the charges. Although being promised a full and unbiased hearing, his Eminence has been advised to bring his checkbook and the deed to South America.

When it was pointed out that the conditions were the same for everybody, Mr. Todt answered "We are not everybody, we are FERRAI damn it!"

There's also Pat Symonds saying that the Stewards sent the email later than the previously agreed time point.

But ofcourse it's Ferrari's fault.
You could maybe also say that the FIA is favoring Ferrari in some way while doing this! It would surely serve your intent! :s

[ioan]

The thing is I thought that Ferrari were going to take a big tactical gamble when they started to peel in. But I realized that though they took on fuel it was so little (3 seconds maybe less) that they weren't willing to take the chance that they would run behind the safety car as long as they did. or were willing to gamble that it would stay wet long enough to run heavy in the first(actually the second)stint.
That, barring a penalty for starting on inter's could have really played into their hand. And, that's a big "IF", because there ended up being quite a few cars running heavy that they would need to pass on track. However this is a tactic, imo, that Ross Braun would have tried.
Possibly!!!
Never the less they need him back, because Todt is not nearly the tactition!

You're right about the tactics. Given that they knew that they were going to the back of the field, without actually knowing how long the SC was going to be out, they should have filled the fuel tanks up to the rim, such heavy rain doesn't really allow for full speeds so they would have got the chance to go till the end of the race with that one stop.

Their tactics this year were a bit on the worse side.

[555-04Q2]

People, its time to grow up. Blatant mud slinging seems to be the official sport on this forum.

P.S. EVERYONE in F1 cheats, period.

[555-04Q2]

You're right about the tactics. Given that they knew that they were going to the back of the field, without actually knowing how long the SC was going to be out, they should have filled the fuel tanks up to the rim, such heavy rain doesn't really allow for full speeds so they would have got the chance to go till the end of the race with that one stop.

Their tactics this year were a bit on the worse side.

Indeed :up: Bring back MS and RB please Ferrari.

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA have made it clear (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62904) that:

At a meeting of the Formula One Sporting Working Group held in Monaco on 7th December 2006, all teams agreed to an electronic distribution system to ensure that all competitors received communications simultaneously, with no time advantage for a team by virtue of their location in the pitlane. This system has been used throughout the current championship year.
Odd that Ferrari should have a problem with the email system this time, but hey-ho, these things happen.

[Flat.tyres]

How can anyone take this thread seriously, it was obviously ment as a joke.

For some reason, everyone but Ferrari got the message. Ferrari probably want to tighten up their internal procedures and the FIA double bagging it with a hard copy memo should stop this happening again.

Ferrari did seem to be all at sea with their strategy on Sunday. How they thought they would stay on the Island on inters is beyond me. Drivers were going off on full wets and it was a crazy decision. They should thank the FIA that they brought them in before they ended their races themselves.

[Ranger]

Yeah sure, coming 3rd and 6th after being sent to the back of the grid and given penalties and so on by the FIA is crapy in comparison with winning from the front with only one stop and with your closest competitors forced to the back of the grid.

Nice way of thinking! As you say it depends how you look at it, but than consider ALL the POVs! ;)

Let's see... If we discount that FIA notice, then Ferrari still managed drive-through penalties, pit-stop cockups, pretty crap pit strategies, spins etc etc.

For sure the result at the end is decent but they should have been fighting for the win today. I'd say their effort yesterday was pretty substandard, and I am saying that out of frustration and not out of dislike for Ferrari. And to be perfectly honest they were somewhat lucky today IMO, after Alonso crashed and Vettel became a harpoon. IMO of course.

[Garry Walker]

What's amazing is that they noticed the Ferraris were on intermediates in just a couple laps, but they wouldn't notice that in the grid? Tyrewarmers are on the tyres till just a few seconds before they leave the grid for the warm-up lap.


And quite naturally you completely beleive the FIArrari version of events

When 10 other teams seemed to have gotten the notice and acted accordingly.

How would the FIA forget to tell the 3rd and 4th placed drivers on the grid about the tyre rules.

Either they did it deliberatley to allow Ferrari an advantageous opportunity or they didn't forget and Ferrari are lying to cover up their cheating.

The only thing that got in their way was the weather. I'm sure the Fia wouldn't have done a thing if the conditions got better, allowing them to use the convenient excuses they mustered up.

For all of McClaren's Alleged cheating, it is Ferrari who used a movable floor, and now clearly broke a rule. Both cases in an attempt to illegaly gain and advantage.
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Your post is an insult to intellectuality.


How can anyone take this thread seriously, it was obviously ment as a joke. "truefan" seems to take it seriously.




For some reason, everyone but Ferrari got the message. Ferrari probably want to tighten up their internal procedures and the FIA double bagging it with a hard copy memo should stop this happening again.

Ferrari did seem to be all at sea with their strategy on Sunday. How they thought they would stay on the Island on inters is beyond me. Drivers were going off on full wets and it was a crazy decision. They should thank the FIA that they brought them in before they ended their races themselves. Ferraris choice was weird, but had some logic in it. It was starting to rain less and the they were expecting a long SC period, and during that time it could have easily dried out enough. But overall, too risky for sure.

[Flat.tyres]

Ferraris choice was weird, but had some logic in it. It was starting to rain less and the they were expecting a long SC period, and during that time it could have easily dried out enough. But overall, too risky for sure.

It did have some logic. Kimi was at the last chance saloon so if the Ferrari finished behind the Macs on Full wets, then they were sunk but if they had got lucky and the rain eased off, then it might have looked an inspired choice.

[ioan]

Let's see... If we discount that FIA notice, then Ferrari still managed drive-through penalties, pit-stop cockups, pretty crap pit strategies, spins etc etc.

What pit stop cock-up?
And if they were not sent to the back by the FIA would their strategy have been the same?
And would there have been a drive through penalty if they would have been given the chance to race the McCheats on an equal basis and not sent to the back of the grid instead?
Show me one driver that didn't put a foot wrong?!

Sending the reds to the back started all their problems.

Someone in an influent enough position knew that Kimi still had a chance to the title given the conditions and didn't want to take any chances with him ruining the "Hamilton Golden Season".

[ioan]

The FIA have made it clear (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62904) that:

Odd that Ferrari should have a problem with the email system this time, but hey-ho, these things happen.

What's odd is that it functioned every time but it failed when a Ferrari driver still has a chance to take the title away from the money cow!

And as tinchote pointed out they didn't see that the Ferrari's were on inters until a few laps into the race.
I fail to see how they missed it when the cars were standing still but managed to see it while they were running?!
Bizarre indeed!

[ArrowsFA1]

Someone in an influent enough position knew that Kimi still had a chance to the title given the conditions and didn't want to take any chances with him ruining the "Hamilton Golden Season".
That's it. Keep repeating it :laugh: :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Thought the rain might slack off so they put on the intermediates. Didn't know about the orders from race control for all teams to start with the extreme wet tires. Didn't notice 10 other teams up and down the paddock putting extreme wets on their cars and wondering why. Forgot they were one of the teams that in 2006, agreed that e-mail distribution of messages such as this was just dandy and written notice wasn't necessary. Didn't have anyone monitoring the computers. Nope, they were all over in the corner having a prayer meeting and sing-along.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....cheaters. Well, it's ok, it backfired on them anyway.

Rumor:

Responding to a formal complaint from one J. Todt that God, in violation of sporting regulation 151c, intentionally and knowingly interferred with the weather conditions causing practice 3 to be cancelled which deprived Ferrari of the critical set-up development time it needed to fairly compete for the pole of the Japanese Grand Prix, M. Mosely has summoned the Pope, in his capacity as the Vicar of Christ on Earth, to Paris to appear before the FIA Marsupial Marionettes to answer the charges. Although being promised a full and unbiased hearing, his Eminence has been advised to bring his checkbook and the deed to South America.

When it was pointed out that the conditions were the same for everybody, Mr. Todt answered "We are not everybody, we are FERRAI damn it!"

Thanks for that, just PML. Very good, and I guess it encapsulates just how much disdain there now is for that team up and down the pitlane.

Personally though, we ought to first demand that Max has to prove God does indeed exist, let him blow a gasket trying to fathom that one out......

:D

[Hondo]

Whatever way you look at it, Ferrari were just crap today.

Just about the only thing James Allen said right yesterday was that Ferrari will be wondering where Ross Brawn is. Their fuel strategy was crap, their pitstops were crap, and then they go earning themselves a few drive-throughs. The tyre thing was only one setback - the rest they brought apon themselves.

Brawn is THE strategy guy. Todt is a loophole guy.

[jens]

Actually Ferrari should be happy that such rule existed and they were asked to change tyres! Because if they weren't, then I guess the race would have turned out to be a disaster for them on intermediates and they would have had no-one else to blame but themselves. But now Ferrari has some alibi to hide their own strategical errors. Sorry, but I'm not trying to find any excuses or conspiracy. The decision to drive with inters was itself dumb enough, no matter whether they got that e-mail in time or not.

[ioan]

That's it. Keep repeating it :laugh: :laugh:

Don't worry, I won't stop as long as I know that it hurts the hypocrites! :p :

[Flat.tyres]

Don't worry, I won't stop as long as I know that it hurts the hypocrites! :p :

So, can you back your statement up with facts or are you just offering an opinion in which case, look to your sig. :)

[Hondo]

How can anyone take this thread seriously, it was obviously ment as a joke.


You win the cigar for that! Unfortunately I don't have one to give you. How about a Camel Filter instead.

Yup, just a big box propped up with a stick and a cookie underneath it. tie a string to the stick, hide around the corner and "here ioan...here kitty kitty..."

lol, I love it!

[Flat.tyres]

You win the cigar for that! Unfortunately I don't have one to give you. How about a Camel Filter instead.

Yup, just a big box propped up with a stick and a cookie underneath it. tie a string to the stick, hide around the corner and "here ioan...here kitty kitty..."

lol, I love it!

You open the bail arm, cast the rod, wait 2 seconds and Reel Him In!!!!

:laugh:

[BDunnell]

You win the cigar for that! Unfortunately I don't have one to give you. How about a Camel Filter instead.

Yup, just a big box propped up with a stick and a cookie underneath it. tie a string to the stick, hide around the corner and "here ioan...here kitty kitty..."

lol, I love it!

:laugh: Me too.

Of course, no-one should dare to make a satirical comment on modern F1 without calling someone a cheat, should they?

[BDunnell]

Don't worry, I won't stop as long as I know that it hurts the hypocrites! :p :

No, all you do is make yourself look like a prat to every true F1 enthusiast on here. It can be rather enjoyable.

[Crank]

Although I found this thread start funny, most of Ferrari fans didn't think so, and that tells a lot about how polarized has become this forum. C'mon relax and enjoy the ride :) .

As for the misunderstanding, it was clear that the circuit was not fit for intermediates, btw, didn't they spin in the formation lap?, if so I think still it was a poor gamble (even without the orders from FIA). I still think that they would have come to change tyres wether the e-mail was sent or not, it was pretty rough out there.

So, as Hawkie said, they gambled and lost...that's all there's to it. To the others, just lighten up a little.

[janneppi]

Apparently Todt has come out saying it was a gamble that would have failed even without the email hassle.
They had thought rain would die down during the SC period. Had they known it wouldn't they would have taken the right tyre option.

[ioan]

No, all you do is make yourself look like a prat to every true F1 enthusiast on here. It can be rather enjoyable.

Ron being a liar and McLaren being labeled cheats and having to pay a $ 100 millions fine is what bothers you that much?
Or Hamilton earning the 2007 WDC* is the problem?

As for calling others name, is exactly what I was expecting, after all if you question a cheating team you'll probably get insults from their supporters. :rolleyes:

[Hondo]

Although I found this thread start funny, most of Ferrari fans didn't think so, and that tells a lot about how polarized has become this forum. C'mon relax and enjoy the ride :) .

As for the misunderstanding, it was clear that the circuit was not fit for intermediates, btw, didn't they spin in the formation lap?, if so I think still it was a poor gamble (even without the orders from FIA). I still think that they would have come to change tyres wether the e-mail was sent or not, it was pretty rough out there.

So, as Hawkie said, they gambled and lost...that's all there's to it. To the others, just lighten up a little.

Crank, I was a die-hard Ferrari fan since I first started following F1, back when Jim Clark was racing. Die-hard doesn't, however, mean impossible to kill, it just means it takes longer to die. Even as a Ferrari fan, I was objective and would freely admit when Ferrari was playing fast and loose with the rules or being petty about someone else's possible misinterpretation of the rulebook. But this last McLaren-Ferrari deal was the last straw. Although this was originally written as a spoof, even if I were still a Ferrari fan, I wouldn't believe their current explaination about the e-mail. They had a well prepared explaination already to go explaining why they started on intermediates instead of extremes just in case their little ploy worked, the rain stopped, and they gained a huge advantage. As it was, the rains continued, they shot themselves in the foot with their ploy, and their excuse for advantage was merely turned around to show how once again, they were victimized unfairly.

Please.

[Ian McC]

I made the mistake of thinking that this place would be quiet without MS and JV, to be honest I think it's worse!

Plenty enough rubbish being posted on all sides I think :down:

[ioan]

I made the mistake of thinking that this place would be quiet without MS and JV, to be honest I think it's worse!

Plenty enough rubbish being posted on all sides I think :down:

Right.
I miss the days when we could have a civilized talk about MS or JV, or both. When people would air extreme opinions about a driver or team and the answers were not insults.

Surely it would have only been cheating if the email had been sent by Pedro De La Rosa?

[Hondo]

Right.
I miss the days when we could have a civilized talk about MS or JV, or both. When people would air extreme opinions about a driver or team and the answers were not insults.

Lol, what days were those?

[Flat.tyres]

Right.
I miss the days when we could have a civilized talk about MS or JV, or both. When people would air extreme opinions about a driver or team and the answers were not insults.

An Insult can also be an insult to peoples intelligence and the forum in general.

I'm not being personal but it seems you polarise opinion on what is regarded as obtuse arguement and biast opinions. If you would try to be a little less dogmatic and slightly more open minded, then you may understand more about the sport. :)

[ioan]

Lol, what days were those?

The ones when a thread was going more than 1000 posts without being closed because of it degenerating into personal remarks after 2 or 3 pages.

[mstillhere]

The FIA have made it clear (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62904) that:

Odd that Ferrari should have a problem with the email system this time, but hey-ho, these things happen.

Therefore screwups are not going to happen???!!!!????

[mstillhere]

Ferrari did seem to be all at sea with their strategy on Sunday. How they thought they would stay on the Island on inters is beyond me. Drivers were going off on full wets and it was a crazy decision. They should thank the FIA that they brought them in before they ended their races themselves.

I hear that their weather man had forcasted a sunny afternoon for Sunday after seeing two sparrows on a branch of a tree on Saturday

[mstillhere]

Let's see... If we discount that FIA notice, then Ferrari still managed drive-through penalties, pit-stop cockups, pretty crap pit strategies, spins etc etc.

For sure the result at the end is decent but they should have been fighting for the win today. I'd say their effort yesterday was pretty substandard, and I am saying that out of frustration and not out of dislike for Ferrari. And to be perfectly honest they were somewhat lucky today IMO, after Alonso crashed and Vettel became a harpoon. IMO of course.

I absolutely agree with you on this one. Although we should differentiate whose effort we are talking about. Kimi's effort was an incredible one, especially when he passed Coultard, Ferrari's are right now an embaressmnet to themselves. I mean how they are going to address this issue today????

[Bagwan]

An Insult can also be an insult to peoples intelligence and the forum in general.

I'm not being personal but it seems you polarise opinion on what is regarded as obtuse arguement and biast opinions. If you would try to be a little less dogmatic and slightly more open minded, then you may understand more about the sport. :)


You are being personal .
And you are being very insulting as well .

Accept that there are other opinions , and they may very well be just as valid as your own .


Ioan gets a lot of stick around here for very little reason but that he tries to enter an alternate opinion to the popular one .

And rarely do I see your posts as well reasoned as his .


Some feel that Ferrari is getting screwed out of the championship .
I agree .
But I am more angry that WE are screwed out of the championship . I suppose , though , that had they not had the documents , they might not be so close , and therefore , we might not have seen this kind of tight season .
McLaren can build a car that can win , no doubt , but Ferrari might have done better with a few pages of Mac info as well .

[BDunnell]

Although I found this thread start funny, most of Ferrari fans didn't think so, and that tells a lot about how polarized has become this forum. C'mon relax and enjoy the ride :) .

My view exactly. This isn't life or death, people!

[BDunnell]

You are being personal .
And you are being very insulting as well .

Accept that there are other opinions , and they may very well be just as valid as your own .


Ioan gets a lot of stick around here for very little reason but that he tries to enter an alternate opinion to the popular one .

And rarely do I see your posts as well reasoned as his .


Some feel that Ferrari is getting screwed out of the championship .
I agree .
But I am more angry that WE are screwed out of the championship . I suppose , though , that had they not had the documents , they might not be so close , and therefore , we might not have seen this kind of tight season .
McLaren can build a car that can win , no doubt , but Ferrari might have done better with a few pages of Mac info as well .

I think part of the problem here is that certain partisan individuals are unable to realise that others really are not rooting for one team over another, and don't seem to get the fact that expressing a view contrary to theirs isn't automatically a sign of the same level of bias that they themselves exhibit. This tends to spoil any attempt at sensible discussion. For my part, it's certainly not a case of shouting down 'unpopular' opinions. It is possible to have a really good debate on here about issues like those that have come up recently, featuring many different viewpoints; the problems occur when views are expressed that have no basis other than sheer bias.

Anyway, this was an amusing thread at the start...

[mstillhere]

I think part of the problem here is that certain partisan individuals are unable to realise that others really are not rooting for one team over another, and don't seem to get the fact that expressing a view contrary to theirs isn't automatically a sign of the same level of bias that they themselves exhibit. This tends to spoil any attempt at sensible discussion. For my part, it's certainly not a case of shouting down 'unpopular' opinions. It is possible to have a really good debate on here about issues like those that have come up recently, featuring many different viewpoints; the problems occur when views are expressed that have no basis other than sheer bias.

Anyway, this was an amusing thread at the start...

I am ok with toning it down a little, but when somebody starts a "new" thread" with "Ferrari cheating and blah..blah.." that's pure provocation.

[BDunnell]

I am ok with toning it down a little, but when somebody starts a "new" thread" with "Ferrari cheating and blah..blah.." that's pure provocation.

I agree, but this one was intended as a joke.

[Hondo]

Cheating as a word has been used much around here lately. I guess it depends on how you define the word and what you think of the evidence.

[schmenke]

I think part of the problem here is that certain partisan individuals are unable to realise that others really are not rooting for one team over another, and don't seem to get the fact that expressing a view contrary to theirs isn't automatically a sign of the same level of bias that they themselves exhibit. This tends to spoil any attempt at sensible discussion. For my part, it's certainly not a case of shouting down 'unpopular' opinions. It is possible to have a really good debate on here about issues like those that have come up recently, featuring many different viewpoints; the problems occur when views are expressed that have no basis other than sheer bias....

:up: well said.

[wmcot]

I agree, but this one was intended as a joke.

Looks like one person's "joke" is another person's "trolling."

[BDunnell]

Looks like one person's "joke" is another person's "trolling."

I think this depends on the nature of the poster. In this case, I don't wish to speak for him, but I don't feel that Fiero goes in for that sort of thing.

[Hondo]

It was indeed intended as a humorous thread. Imagine my surprise when it was taken seriously. I've been on the forum for a long time and don't believe I have a reputation for trolling. However, since it became sooooo serious, I will stand by my belief that there was no problem with the timely receipt of the e-mail and leave it at that.

You want to have the thread locked or made to disappear, then do so. I have no objection.

[Ian McC]

I think part of the problem here is that certain partisan individuals are unable to realise that others really are not rooting for one team over another, and don't seem to get the fact that expressing a view contrary to theirs isn't automatically a sign of the same level of bias that they themselves exhibit. This tends to spoil any attempt at sensible discussion. For my part, it's certainly not a case of shouting down 'unpopular' opinions. It is possible to have a really good debate on here about issues like those that have come up recently, featuring many different viewpoints; the problems occur when views are expressed that have no basis other than sheer bias.

Anyway, this was an amusing thread at the start...

Aye BD, that's a fine post :)

[Dave B]

Even if Ferrari were the only team not to have received this email, even though everybody else (including the media centre) managed ok, it was still a monumentally flawed decision to start with intermediates in the conditions.

Ferrari knew from Saturday that their cars were not ideally set up for the wet, and this was proven as their drivers both struggled to keep on the track come Sunday.

Cheating or not, Ferrari simply got it wrong this time.

[555-04Q2]

No, all you do is make yourself look like a prat to every true F1 enthusiast on here. It can be rather enjoyable.

Thats a bit below the belt if you ask me. ioan is one of our better forum members. Just because his opinions differ from yours, does not him a prat make. Look in the mirror dude ;)

[BDunnell]

Thats a bit below the belt if you ask me. ioan is one of our better forum members. Just because his opinions differ from yours, does not him a prat make. Look in the mirror dude ;)

That comment does look a bit harsh now, for which apologies.

I must reiterate that it's not the differing opinions that I have a problem with. My subsequent post (#66, starting 'I think part of the problem here...') explains this in rather more reasonable language.

[Easy Drifter]

Now Ferrari didn't pull their tire warmers off until the last second so people didn't have much chance to see what tires they were using although I am sure most other teams looked at them at the end of the formation lap to see what they were running.
10 teams and both Speed and ITV knew of the ruling including the on grid commentators.
Just shows how popular Ferrari are that nobody said anything to them on the grid.
JUST KIDDING.
Even if somebody told them at that point it was too late to change before grid clearing.

[SGWilko]

Now Ferrari didn't pull their tire warmers off until the last second so people didn't have much chance to see what tires they were using although I am sure most other teams looked at them at the end of the formation lap to see what they were running.
10 teams and both Speed and ITV knew of the ruling including the on grid commentators.
Just shows how popular Ferrari are that nobody said anything to them on the grid.
JUST KIDDING.
Even if somebody told them at that point it was too late to change before grid clearing.

You make a good point, but would they not have had the inters on between pit and driving to the grid, or did they do that with the warmers on still? :D

[SGWilko]

And, surely, would Bridgestone not have realised something?

[555-04Q2]

That comment does look a bit harsh now, for which apologies.

I must reiterate that it's not the differing opinions that I have a problem with. My subsequent post (#66, starting 'I think part of the problem here...') explains this in rather more reasonable language.

:up: I'm sure ioan will accept the apology :up:

[ioan]

Right, apologies accepted. :)

[airshifter]

This is a rather absurd accusation of cheating if you ask me.

Ferrari had absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by starting with intermediates. I'm sure given the chance after parking on the grid they would have changed tires. They probably assumed that everyone else gambles on full wets and they were the ones that made the mistake.

How can you "cheat" to create a disadvantage?



Ferrari and the FIA were both at fault that this happened, but to say that they intentionally had to bring the drivers in for an extra stop to change tires is just crazy.

[Flat.tyres]

This is a rather absurd accusation of cheating if you ask me.

Ferrari had absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by starting with intermediates. I'm sure given the chance after parking on the grid they would have changed tires. They probably assumed that everyone else gambles on full wets and they were the ones that made the mistake.

How can you "cheat" to create a disadvantage?



Ferrari and the FIA were both at fault that this happened, but to say that they intentionally had to bring the drivers in for an extra stop to change tires is just crazy.

I have no evidence to suggest that Ferrari have acted innapropiatly in this matter so accept at face value that they did not know about the email

BUT

They had everything to gain and nothing to lose by taking the gamble on inters.

They had a suspicion that the rain would lift. They knew the race was starting behind the pace car.

IF

The rain had lifted, they would have been the only team out there on the right tyres and McLaren and everyone else would have had to pit handing them the lead.

BUT

If the gamble didn't pay off, then they really had nothing to lose. They already have the WCC in the bag and the only thing to go for is the WDC. It was a gamble, and in hindsight the wrong one, but justifyable given the circumstances. There's no point coming 2nd in a coin flip.

[airshifter]

So, the short version is you still think they cheated, even though you don't think they got the email?

Where did Kimi finish after having to stop for tires and then work his way back through the pack? A tire change put him at the back, so it appears to me that it's obvious there was something to lose. Not to mention the possibility of losing a car into a wall.



I can't think for a second that any team would have chosen intermediates to start that race if they had known they had the option to switch them. The worst case was everyone starting with the same tires, which would have evened out the extra pit stop they ended up making.

[Flat.tyres]

So, the short version is you still think they cheated, even though you don't think they got the email?

Where did Kimi finish after having to stop for tires and then work his way back through the pack? A tire change put him at the back, so it appears to me that it's obvious there was something to lose. Not to mention the possibility of losing a car into a wall.



I can't think for a second that any team would have chosen intermediates to start that race if they had known they had the option to switch them. The worst case was everyone starting with the same tires, which would have evened out the extra pit stop they ended up making.

:confused:

Sorry, you lost me there.

I accept that they didn't read the message at face value so no, I dont think they cheated.

Also, they could change tyres anyway. they dont need an email for that. They wanted to start on inters as a gamble and even if they weren't B/O they would not have been able to do race pace without changing tyres so it was all pretty immaterial.

It was a gamble that wouldn't have paid off as admitted by Ferrari.

[SGWilko]

:confused:

Sorry, you lost me there.

I accept that they didn't read the message at face value so no, I dont think they cheated.

Also, they could change tyres anyway. they dont need an email for that. They wanted to start on inters as a gamble and even if they weren't B/O they would not have been able to do race pace without changing tyres so it was all pretty immaterial.

It was a gamble that wouldn't have paid off as admitted by Ferrari.

In fact, Ferrari had learned from the wet practice sessions that they had a hard time staying on the island in the wet on inters, so why take that gamble, they had a lot more to lose than gain.

[wmcot]

Out of curiosity, have the FIA ever demanded that all teams start on a particular tire before? Or is this just new since the European GP?

[Hondo]

In fact, Ferrari had learned from the wet practice sessions that they had a hard time staying on the island in the wet on inters, so why take that gamble, they had a lot more to lose than gain.

I believe Ferrari already had the e-mail story ready to go before the race started in case their gamble DID PAY OFF. Race control was going to want some answers as to why they weren't on extremes. Although it was obvious they would have to come in for extremes anyway, being ordered in played right into their hands and they became poor, unfortunate "victims" again with their story already in place. It was win-win for Ferrari.

[wmcot]

I believe Ferrari already had the e-mail story ready to go before the race started in case their gamble DID PAY OFF. Race control was going to want some answers as to why they weren't on extremes. Although it was obvious they would have to come in for extremes anyway, being ordered in played right into their hands and they became poor, unfortunate "victims" again with their story already in place. It was win-win for Ferrari.

Ferrari must employ a hell of a lot of people just to come up with all these "conspiracies" on such short notice...

...it couldn't be a bit of paranoia on the part of all the Ferrari haters out there, could it?

[janneppi]

Last i checked, Fiero 5.7 is a Ferrari supporter, well love and hate are pretty much the same aren't they?

[leopard]

I think it's a Honda car, isn't it?

[Hondo]

Ferrari must employ a hell of a lot of people just to come up with all these "conspiracies" on such short notice...

...it couldn't be a bit of paranoia on the part of all the Ferrari haters out there, could it?

It took me all of 2 minutes to come up with it after I first heard about the e-mail to all teams about using extremes and then they were called back in and forced to change tires, claiming they didn't get the e-mail until after the race started.
Now they're up there whining again how that spoiled their race. If they had stayed out there on intermediates, there would still be people on the track picking up little tiny pieces of Ferrari and Montezolo would be flying a couple of new cars out to China. Nobody, except Ferrari, ran intermediates at any time during the race.
If anything at all, Todt and Montezolo ought to thanking race control for forcing them to do what they too stupid to figure out on their own. I guess without Stepney there to handle the info coming back from his sources, there was no one else to tell them McLaren was on extremes.

[Hondo]

Last i checked, Fiero 5.7 is a Ferrari supporter, well love and hate are pretty much the same aren't they?

Nope, this Coughlan-Stepney thing was the last straw. I believe I'll just be an independant now with a slight bias towards BMW-Sauber.

Thus my new signature.

[rohanweb]

Ferrari has found a mysterious white powder on their computer used for official e-mails...stay tuned for future developments.

nope..
ferrari found thier email system (made of fiat components..lol) hacked by mclaren guys, who stopped them knowing wet tyres to be put on the cars.
max mosley has been informed & mclaren has been summoned at paris meeting.. btw todt & montzemello has proof for that.

[janneppi]

Nope, this Coughlan-Stepney thing was the last straw. I believe I'll just be an independant now with a slight bias towards BMW-Sauber.

Thus my new signature.
Sorry for the ,mix up, I don't read signatures longer than four words. :p :

[ioan]

Last i checked, Fiero 5.7 is a Ferrari supporter, well love and hate are pretty much the same aren't they?

You must have checked it a long time ago! ;)

[ioan]

Sorry for the ,mix up, I don't read signatures longer than four words. :p :

You mean 4 letters! :p :