Vettel you fool

[Ranger]

Both him and Webber had a chance of victory and were lapping quicker than Hamilton - so what did he do?!? :rolleyes:

Rookie or not, someone needs to slap him back together.

[F1boat]

He was like murderer today - collided with Alonso, maybe it was he, who ruined his championship. Then he collided with Webber as well.
Idiot.

[Mikeall]

Don't be too harsh on Vettel, Hamilton and Webber both played a role in the crash behind the safety car and maybe that 10 place penalty is a bit harsh. Hamilton kept speeding up and slowing down behind the safety car which is especially dangerous in those conditions. Often Alonso and Webber would appear alongside Hamilton and have to slow down. Webber should have realised this and perhaps given Hamilton more of a gap. That said Vettel should have kept more alert but the accident wouldn't have happened if Hamilton had kept a more even pace and Webber (and Vettel) had hung back a bit more.

The Alonso crash wasn't Vettel's fault at all. Vettel won the corner and had the inside line but Alonso just didn't see him.

[janneppi]

Vettel should have been more carefull, hope he learns from his mistake.

[BDunnell]

Alonso has said that he didn't think the incident with Vettel ruined his race. I don't think there's any reason to be too harsh on him for either clash, personally, as in the main he drove splendidly. It seems to me that a lot of people expect metronomic perfection from every driver nowadays.

[tinchote]

Alonso has said that he didn't think the incident with Vettel ruined his race. I don't think there's any reason to be too harsh on him for either clash, personally, as in the main he drove splendidly. It seems to me that a lot of people expect metronomic perfection from every driver nowadays.

:up:

[VkmSpouge]

With all the braking and tyre warming going on behind the safety car and lack of visibility it was an accident waiting to happen, I was surprised it hadn't happened earlier as there had been a few near misses. I can't really blame Vettel for the crash with Webber, a big shame for both drivers who deserved podiums for their efforts.

[Schultz]

Ben, your comment makes so much sense. The problem is at that level of motorsport that is the expectation. they are paid ten's of millions of dollars a year and are expected to work for it. When they "F*** up" they are drilled for it, and so they should be. I'm not angry at Vettel for destroying my favourite drivers prospect of a first grand prix victory, even though I have urged him on in every single race since his debut in the Minardi. But I am fed up of the almsot expected bad luck he has when he is in a position to achieve something brilliant and trully make himself stand out to the top teams.

[Storm]

He made a mistake no doubt..but the guy is 18 and a rookie.

Even the 'great' Webber has made plenty of racing errors in his life although I agree he could have possibly won or have been on the podium had it not been for the Vettel incident.

[BDunnell]

Ben, your comment makes so much sense. The problem is at that level of motorsport that is the expectation. they are paid ten's of millions of dollars a year and are expected to work for it. When they "F*** up" they are drilled for it, and so they should be. I'm not angry at Vettel for destroying my favourite drivers prospect of a first grand prix victory, even though I have urged him on in every single race since his debut in the Minardi. But I am fed up of the almsot expected bad luck he has when he is in a position to achieve something brilliant and trully make himself stand out to the top teams.

I certainly understand that — I would absolutely love Webber to get his first win, too, as I think he's a really good driver who thoroughly deserves it. Trouble is, everyone makes mistakes, especially people who are new to a job, no matter how much they are paid.

By the way, my comment wasn't necessarily only about F1. If, for instance, a new WRC car comes along from a major team and isn't immediately successful, it's equally as immediately branded a failure. This may turn out to be true, but it used to be expected, even at the top line of motorsport, that new cars or new drivers took a little time to achieve their potential. Now, this doesn't seem to be the case.

[Erki]

@Storm: Vettel is 20. :)

[Spoonbender]

Webber certainly blames Vettel.
During the live broadcast this morning, Louise Goodman interviewed Mark when he got back to the pits, he was not happy. He swore (f word) and said that inexperienced kids shouldn't be driving in those conditions. Louise was speechless, didn't know what to do, I loved it :)

[fandango]

It's an indication of the astonishing bad luck that Webber has, so I think his frustration is understandable. However, he's done a couple of similar things himself, in perfect visibility and under racing conditions, so if he were a gentleman he would apologise to Vettel for his comments.

Vettel, obviously, should apologise to Webber too, but it looked clear from his body language at the end that he felt bad about what he did.

[jonny hurlock]

Webber certainly blames Vettel.
During the live broadcast this morning, Louise Goodman interviewed Mark when he got back to the pits, he was not happy. He swore (f word) and said that inexperienced kids shouldn't be driving in those conditions. Louise was speechless, didn't know what to do, I loved it :)

smiling at that at 7 o'clock in the morning, webber comment was all four X,

[ioan]

With those track conditions this kind of incidents may happen to any of them.
Vettel has his share of blame for it, but he isn't the only one to be blamed.

The soon to be champion rookie was accelerating and braking violently all the time during both SC car periods without ever thinking that he was the only one that had good visibility in those conditions!
He almost went past the SC under acceleration on a few occasions, not too mention that several times he did brake to hard and the ones following him had to avoid him.
Maybe he thinks that driving a McLaren-Ferrari gives him some special rights over the m's!

[janneppi]

Didn' Hamilton complain Webber was driving the same way, suddenly appearing from the mist just beside him and asked his team to tell Webber to give more room?

[Bradley]

Vettel has his share of blame for it, but he isn't the only one to be blamed.

The soon to be champion rookie was accelerating and braking violently all the time during both SC car periods.

Exactly. And hamilton got no drive-trough-penalty for this off-course ...

[Corny]

I was just thinking, can't they make a rule or something for things like this? I mean c'mon, when the cars are behind the safety car they go all around the track, braking and accerelating all the time.. I'm sure it's not the last time for such an accident!

[Schnell]

He made a mistake no doubt..but the guy is 18 and a rookie.

Even the 'great' Webber has made plenty of racing errors in his life although I agree he could have possibly won or have been on the podium had it not been for the Vettel incident.

He also rammed Davidson up the back at Monza destroying his rear defuser assemble and his race...18 is much too young to be in the top level of motor sport.

[FIA]

Vettel is only young and is a future champ, but his accident was the most upsetting this year.

[tinchote]

I don't think there's any need to be so harsh on Vettel. First, he as someone said, he is 20, not 18. Second, he has driven reasonably well, particularly at Fuji. One mistake doesn't erase everything else he has done. We've seen MS and JPM have an accident in a similar situation, and that was without the rain.

And he ruined Webber's race, granted, but he also ruined his and his team's - maybe only - chance of a podium this season and who knows for how long in the future. That's more than enough punishment, I would say.

[jens]

Vettel performance reminded Senna's or Bellof's performance at Monaco in 1984! He probably had a better setup (full-wet) than most of the other drivers, but nonetheless he was driving a Toro Rosso! Qualifying itself was great, but the race pace itself was even more amazing! Creating a parallel with the previously mentioned guys, who shone 23 years ago, then maybe this 2007 Japanese Grand Prix was the first sign of the future rainmaster? :)

I fully understand Webber fans frustration, but Seb is a rookie and he was crying after the collision. Everyone has to suffer some setbacks in trying to establish himself as a top drawer. His results are still to come - now he has something to learn from. The conditions were extremely tough and the visibility was poor - he did incredibly well anyway for not making more errors than just that one, which was faithful...

Btw, is Sebastian the youngest driver that has ever led a Grand Prix?



Vettel, obviously, should apologise to Webber too, but it looked clear from his body language at the end that he felt bad about what he did.

He has already apologized. ;)

[cy bais]

i hope he has a short-term memory, forget about this mistake and move forward. :=)

[Hondo]

I know Vettel feels bad and maybe Berger and Horner are helping to make him feel worse, but did it have to be Webber? He couldn't have found a groundhog or something else to hit?

What does Webber have to do to catch a break in this game? I think the man would have taken 2nd place for sure had it not been for the accident. I don't think anybody was going to take Hamilton.

[osg]

Vettel is only young and is a future champ, but his accident was the most upsetting this year.

future champ? Laughable at best :rolleyes:

[rohanweb]

sorry for Vettel.. he is a fanstastic young gun, same goes to MW.. his unluck just keep carrying on.. i think its down to some inexperience of vettel about following a car in such conditions and lost under braking! silly moment..
i was expecting some unusual drivers on the podium for a change...

well.. Mark's abuse on the national television shown that how disapointed he is.. and Vettel certainly looks like a chicken.. mm
thats racing ;(

[osg]

I know Vettel feels bad and maybe Berger and Horner are helping to make him feel worse, but did it have to be Webber? He couldn't have found a groundhog or something else to hit?

What does Webber have to do to catch a break in this game? I think the man would have taken 2nd place for sure had it not been for the accident. I don't think anybody was going to take Hamilton.

If's and buts i know.... but do you seriously think Lewis would have got involved if Mark was all over his rear? for the sake of the title, i think lewis would have heeded.

[jso1985]

said that inexperienced kids shouldn't be driving in those conditions.

Seems like Webber is forgetting that he was also an unexperienced kid once upon a time and how else is Vettel supposed to get experience?

I know, it was Vettel's full fault, but he's isn't the first driver to make a stupid mistake so I don't see why he need to be slammed so hard

[VkmSpouge]

With those track conditions this kind of incidents may happen to any of them.
Vettel has his share of blame for it, but he isn't the only one to be blamed.

The soon to be champion rookie was accelerating and braking violently all the time during both SC car periods without ever thinking that he was the only one that had good visibility in those conditions!
He almost went past the SC under acceleration on a few occasions, not too mention that several times he did brake to hard and the ones following him had to avoid him.
Maybe he thinks that driving a McLaren-Ferrari gives him some special rights over the m's!

I don't know why you bring up just Hamilton. Everyone was accelerating and braking sharply behind the safety car, you could see it throughout the field.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I was disappointed for Webber, and I can understand his anger and his post-race comments. Vettel made a very silly mistake, but he'll learn from it and he's got a bright future ahead of him.

On a more general note I think the FIA need to amend the rules relating the safety car procedure. The lead car is meant to control the field when the safety car pulls off, but nowadays drivers are pushing the rule to it's limit by seemingly brake-testing the car behind. Lewis did this twice today, and he isn't the only one.

It's against the spirit of the rules and was undoubtably a factor in the Webber / Vettel collision, so the rules need amending in my opinion.

[AJP]

I was completely guttered for Webber....
He had a very realistic chance for a win at Fuji....
and I honestly thought that his luck had changed for once....
the guy just can't take a trick....
Vettel will learn a very valuable lesson from this and will hopefully learn it very quickly....

[AJP]

This has also denied Red Bull from overtaking Williams in the constructors....

[Ranger]

Regardless, he's admitted that he just wasn't watching Webber until he crashed into the back of him. :mad:


I made a good start and the race was going well," said Vettel. "Then, with the final safety car, I was behind Lewis and Mark and exiting Turn 13, I looked to the right and saw Lewis going really slowly, I don't know why, but I thought he had a problem. Probably he was heating his brakes.

"Then, by the time I looked forward again, I was already in the back of Mark's car and I think he had also reacted to Lewis. I apologise now to Mark because I ruined both our races."

And he's been given a 10-grid penalty for China for his efforts, rightly so.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62896

Yes, it was a rookie mistake, but forgawdssake did he have to take someone else with him?? I would have been quite gutted for Vettel to retire, as he did drive brilliantly.

But why, oh why did he have to take Webber with him.

The guy was on for a career-best finish and possible win in appalling condition AFTER driving the whole race after throwing up in his helmet from a stomach bug, and now this cruel twist of fate.

Perhaps fellow forumers can understand my anger - I don't think I've ever been more infuriated at a sporting event EVER. :( :mad:

[Whyzars]

But why, oh why did he have to take Webber with him.

The guy was on for a career-best finish and possible win in appalling condition AFTER driving the whole race after throwing up in his helmet from a stomach bug, and now this cruel twist of fate.

Perhaps fellow forumers can understand my anger - I don't think I've ever been more infuriated at a sporting event EVER. :( :mad:


I understand your anger. You're among friends here. :)

Webber showed yet again just how good a driver he is. The only reason he hasn't got a string of wins under his belt is wrong team at the wrong time. Having said that, he is driving in F1 and has to now be assured of a seat in F1 as long as he wants one. I don't know that it was a given before this year but Webber has left no doubt just how valuable he is as a driver.

I was actually screaming at the commentators who, not 30 seconds before the incident, said that Webber and Vettel were heading for the podium and in fact Webber could probably win it. I yelled "NOOOOOOooo...".

Needless to say the next shot was of Webber parked. I spent the rest of the race collapsed in the couch shaking my head. :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

I was so angry!
Hamilton was driving dangerously behind the safety car as well. I can't believe he'd blame Webber for that incident, what a cock.

[Ranger]

I understand your anger. You're among friends here. :)

Webber showed yet again just how good a driver he is. The only reason he hasn't got a string of wins under his belt is wrong team at the wrong time. Having said that, he is driving in F1 and has to now be assured of a seat in F1 as long as he wants one. I don't know that it was a given before this year but Webber has left no doubt just how valuable he is as a driver.

I was actually screaming at the commentators who, not 30 seconds before the incident, said that Webber and Vettel were heading for the podium and in fact Webber could probably win it. I yelled "NOOOOOOooo...".

Needless to say the next shot was of Webber parked. I spent the rest of the race collapsed in the couch shaking my head. :rolleyes:

Yep... I'll acknowledge the race as the most eventful one I've seen in a while, but far from the best, perhaps purely for that incident. :mad:

[truefan72]

Vettel made a HUGE mistake, apologized to Webber. Ruined his and the teams only chance to podium in 2007, ( as well as prize money and WCC points) get's a 10-grid penality for next race.

I think all that could have been done has been done.

In the future I hope he will learn to give a bit more room in front of him and wait until his radio tells him "SC in this lap!"
then he closes up on the last turns and goes for it!

[ozrevhead]

I was so angry!
Hamilton was driving dangerously behind the safety car as well. I can't believe he'd blame Webber for that incident, what a cock.
why wasnt lewis punnished for that

every corner hed almost went to a standstill - I said to my bro when he first did it that hes going to ruin someones race

I didnt think it would of been Marks :( and Lewis has the ordasity to blame Mark - proves hes the arrogant tosser I think he is - hope someone takes him out!

I was in tears when I saw Mark in the wall - he so deserved that podium....sick as a dog and still managed to be in the running for a win!!

[Ranger]

Vettel made a HUGE mistake, apologized to Webber. Ruined his and the teams only chance to podium in 2007, ( as well as prize money and WCC points) get's a 10-grid penality for next race.

I think all that could have been done has been done.

I think so too.

Unlike other forums, no one here is calling for Vettel to be cast into the deepest depths of Hades, which reflects well on forum standards. :up:

It was a mistake, and at least you could see the dude was sorry for it. It was all very unfortunate considering the position and circumstances they were in.

[XR8]

I blame Hamilton as much as Vettel for this one as at every safety car start he would brakle test those behind him! I think that this is a dangerous move in the dry and ten times more dangerous in the wet!My son races Aussie Race Cars and had a similar accident in the wet last month when the leader in a wet race braked sharply under safety car to slow them behind him with the result of a domino effect and cars crashing behind him. Its about time someone did something to stop this game playing before someone gets hurt!

[RJL25]

firstly i'd just like to quickly say, i think hamilton is starting to get a bit too big for his boots. I was so happy for him at the start of the year when he was doing so well, and i still am in a way, but i wish he would just concentrate on the racing and stop trying to make fernando look as bad as possible in the press (fernando does a good enough job of that on his own)

Now back to the incident, look Vettel made a mistake, no doubt about it, but hamilton was also driving like a cock. In those conditions there was just no need to be accelerating and braking so excessively, on a number of occasions webber, and at the start of the race alonso, where forced to overlap him because he was going at it so hard. But look you can make excuses for Vettel all you like i guess, but at the end of the day he made a very big mistake which im quite confident he will never repeat! Up untill then he was driving like a superstar and i have little doubt he will eventually be promoted to the "main" red bull team and he will do a bloody good job

As for webbers comments, look it was dissapointing he swore, but the guy was completely devistated, that was obvious to see. He knows in his heart of hearts the chances of him winning GP's is limited due to the teams he is/has driven for and theres a good chance he may never win one. So when an opportunity like that comes along he wanted it so bad, and it was all taken away by a very poor rookie mistake. I dont blame him for his comments.

And for the record his exact words where "well its kids isnt it? kids without enough experience doing a good job then they go and **** it all up". Those are his exact words, some people have been exagerating them quite a bit. And yes he was inexperienced once too, but i think the point is that young blokes are coming into F1 still in nappy's, with only a few seasons of open wheel racing under their belts, whereas he, and most of the drivers of his generation, had to spend years and years in europe, and then another few years as a test driver before they eventually got their chance and ofcourse by then, they are much more experienced then alot of the young guys like vettel are when they have come into the sport. And frankly i think its a fair point, they are racing for sheep stations out there! its a big deal, you dont wont guys without the necessary experience running around making mistakes which costs big $$$

[Bradley]

I didnt think it would of been Marks :( and Lewis has the ordasity to blame Mark - proves hes the arrogant tosser I think he is - hope someone takes him out!


:eek: How can Hamilton blame Webber for that incident??? He may be happy that Webber avoided him during all these laps behind the SC.

These dangerous manoeuvers are becoming typical for Hamilton : no respect for the other drivers. The fact that he's blaming others for his own mistakes makes it even worse.

[AndyRAC]

Personally I think Webber and Vettel are equally to blame; one driver warming his brakes, the other his tyres, result a coming together. And of course it's never an Australians fault, they're perfect. Must admit I did fancy Webber to win, as he seemed quicker than Hamilton before the Alonso off.

[Ranger]

Personally I think Webber and Vettel are equally to blame; one driver warming his brakes, the other his tyres, result a coming together. And of course it's never an Australians fault, they're perfect.

Considering Vettel admitted he wasn't even watching Webber until he crashed into the back of him, then no, it wasn't Webber's fault at all.

[ArrowsFA1]

Its about time someone did something to stop this game playing before someone gets hurt!
It's not a game. All of the drivers need to ensure that brake temperature and tyre pressures are at the right level, or as close to it as possible to be ready to race. To do that they all accelerate and brake while following the safety car.

To illustrate how important this is we know, or suspect strongly, that falling tyre pressures were a factor in Senna's fatal accident. Look also at the incident in the Monaco tunnel between Schumacher and Montoya.

The conditions at Fuji increased the chances of an accident and Webber was the unfortunate and blameless victim, while Vettel was at fault for making an understandable error.

[SGWilko]

future champ? Laughable at best :rolleyes:

Carefull, I seem to remember a particular driver in 1993/4 who was prone to many (especially start line) accidents, who became a World Champion......

[Flat.tyres]

Vettel made a HUGE mistake, apologized to Webber. Ruined his and the teams only chance to podium in 2007, ( as well as prize money and WCC points) get's a 10-grid penality for next race.

I think all that could have been done has been done.

In the future I hope he will learn to give a bit more room in front of him and wait until his radio tells him "SC in this lap!"
then he closes up on the last turns and goes for it!

Nice balanced post.

All drivers under SC conditions try to keep heat in their tyres and brakes. All drivers accelerate and brake to do this and Vettel made a mistake that unfortunatly ruined what was 2 superb races. No point blaming Hamilton though :confused:

[Garry Walker]

Awesome drive by SV, till his stupid move on Webber. Both of them deserved a good result, but now SV cost his team and Red Bull over 10 million dollars probably. Good job :rotflmao:
I wonder why Vettel got no penalty for ramming Alonso, whereas Kubica got a penalty for doing the same on The Golden Boy. Double Standards.


Exactly. And hamilton got no drive-trough-penalty for this off-course ...

The Golden Boy got no penalty, because he didnt take anyone out. His driving behind the SC was okay, they are supposed to keep temperature in their brakes and tyres as much as possible.


18 is much too young to be in the top level of motor sport.
He is 20


future champ? Laughable at best :rolleyes: No, it isnt. Vettel has a long way to go, but there is potential.

[Ranger]

Awesome drive by SV, till his stupid move on Webber. Both of them deserved a good result, but now SV cost his team and Red Bull over 10 million dollars probably. Good job :rotflmao:
I wonder why Vettel got no penalty for ramming Alonso, whereas Kubica got a penalty for doing the same on The Golden Boy. Double Standards.

The Golden Boy got no penalty, because he didnt take anyone out. His driving behind the SC was okay, they are supposed to keep temperature in their brakes and tyres as much as possible.

He is 20

No, it isnt. Vettel has a long way to go, but there is potential.

I'll agree with that. Vettel was the driver of the race until he became the dickhead of the race, which is what he exited the weekend as. Hopefully he learns something from it.

[ioan]

future champ? Laughable at best :rolleyes:

Go ahead and laugh, anyway Vettel will get way further in his F1 career than Webber.

[Flat.tyres]

I want to see the Alonso incident again as I had it as 50/50 at worst. When hamilton was hit, it was obviously RK fault.

[ioan]

I don't know why you bring up just Hamilton. Everyone was accelerating and braking sharply behind the safety car, you could see it throughout the field.

That's because there are rules that state that they have to remain close to the guy in front and that the guy in front (and thats LH, thus I brought him up) dictates the pace behind the SC. Only that in these conditions the guy in front should think about the fact that he is the only one who can see as far as naturally possible while the others can see almost nothing. So violent acceleration and braking did not belong in there yesterday! :s

[Garry Walker]

I want to see the Alonso incident again as I had it as 50/50 at worst. When hamilton was hit, it was obviously RK fault.

They were very similar incidents, the only difference was that in one case it was Alonso on the receiving end and in the other case it was The Golden Boy.

Kubica should read his superlicense again, it says there clearly "thou must not race The Golden Boy"

[ArrowsFA1]

So violent acceleration and braking did not belong in there yesterday! :s
So you want the drivers to go into racing conditions with cold brakes and low tyre temperatures?

[ioan]

I was so angry!
Hamilton was driving dangerously behind the safety car as well. I can't believe he'd blame Webber for that incident, what a cock.

Oh sure he blamed Webber, this way he was shifting his share of blame for what happened on Webber's shoulders.
And interestingly enough no one ever thought about investigating him for the incident? :rolleyes:

[Garry Walker]

So you want the drivers to go into racing conditions with cold brakes and low tyre temperatures?

In wet conditions, I might add. The complaints some people have are very funny, clearly lack of understanding of racing. The guy behind can easily keep distance.

I want to know if Ioan is against sudden braking and acceleration in dry as well, I might point him to a video of Monza 2000.

[SGWilko]

That's because there are rules that state that they have to remain close to the guy in front and that the guy in front (and thats LH, thus I brought him up) dictates the pace behind the SC. Only that in these conditions the guy in front should think about the fact that he is the only one who can see as far as naturally possible while the others can see almost nothing. So violent acceleration and braking did not belong in there yesterday! :s

Ioan, are you blaming the guy in front? They may be a precedent set on this one.....

In the tunnel in Monaco......

Who was the lead driver then?

Schumacher wasn't it?

[ioan]

So you want the drivers to go into racing conditions with cold brakes and low tyre temperatures?

Having cold brakes and tires is something you can adapt to because you feel it and adapt your driving to it accordingly.
But you might not be able to adapt to the brake testing attempts of the idiot in front cause you might not get a second chance after the first lesson.

[Ranger]

Oh sure he blamed Webber, this way he was shifting his share of blame for what happened on Webber's shoulders.
And interestingly enough no one ever thought about investigating him for the incident? :rolleyes:

Well the coverage was poor of the accident even on replays so we can't see what exactly happened.

Having said that it seems some people are blaming Hamilton because he got away. Was anyone suggesting that Schumacher be investigated after the Monaco tunnel in 2004? Because a quick browse of forum archives last year showed that half of the people blamed Schumacher and the other half Montoya.

Personally I think Hamilton contributed to it, but he isn't to blame because Vettel has admitted sleeping on the job. I'm peaved at Hamilton for being a bit of a dickhead about it though.

[ioan]

Ioan, are you blaming the guy in front? They may be a precedent set on this one.....

In the tunnel in Monaco......

Who was the lead driver then?

Schumacher wasn't it?

This is in no way absolving Hamilton of his hare of blame, is it?

[ioan]

Well the coverage was poor of the accident even on replays so we can't see what exactly happened.

Having said that it seems some people are blaming Hamilton because he got away. Was anyone suggesting that Schumacher be investigated after the Monaco tunnel in 2004? Because a quick browse of forum archives last year showed that half of the people blamed Schumacher and the other half Montoya.

Personally I think Hamilton contributed to it, but he isn't to blame because Vettel has admitted sleeping on the job. I'm peaved at Hamilton for being a bit of a dickhead about it though.

I also agree that Vettel made a big mistake and he has his fair share of blame to take for it, and he took it.
I just think that Hamilton also played quite a decisive role on the incident and I question his way of handling the field under yesterdays difficult situations.

[ioan]

In wet conditions, I might add. The complaints some people have are very funny, clearly lack of understanding of racing. The guy behind can easily keep distance.

I want to know if Ioan is against sudden braking and acceleration in dry as well, I might point him to a video of Monza 2000.

You might want to compare the visibility levels and take them into account.
And as I already said it, because MS did something stupid a few years ago under different track conditions doesn't make Hamilton a saint for doing it in much worse conditions.

Take it as you wish.

[Ranger]

This is in no way absolving Hamilton of his hare of blame, is it?
No it doesn't (IMO), as I think he wasn't to blame in the first place - Vettel's fault as he said. But I think he is asking that by your logic, was Schumacher also to blame for his shenanigans in Monaco 2004? Because he was similarly leading behind the safety car when an accident formed behind him. The difference there was that he was involved in it, unlike Hamilton yesterday.

[Garry Walker]

You might want to compare the visibility levels and take them into account.
And as I already said it, because MS did something stupid a few years ago under different track conditions doesn't make Hamilton a saint for doing it in much worse conditions.

Take it as you wish.

MS did nothing stupid, it was up to the other guys to be aware and take notice. This isnt boy scouts driving with scooters, it is real racing.

btw: What about that visibility in tunnels

[Flat.tyres]

That's because there are rules that state that they have to remain close to the guy in front and that the guy in front (and thats LH, thus I brought him up) dictates the pace behind the SC. Only that in these conditions the guy in front should think about the fact that he is the only one who can see as far as naturally possible while the others can see almost nothing. So violent acceleration and braking did not belong in there yesterday! :s

Schumacher / Montota ;)

[SGWilko]

This is in no way absolving Hamilton of his hare of blame, is it?

Blame for what - being in the lead, warming up brakes etc.

Tell me Ioan, here is a scenario for you......

You are on the motorway, and it's pi55ing down with rain, traffic all around you, but only one vehicle in front. What do you do, drive so close to the car in front and risk an accident, or (and I might give you clue here) LEAVE ENOUGH ROOM SO YOU CAN BRAKE IN TIME IF NEED BE?

[Ranger]

I also agree that Vettel made a big mistake and he has his fair share of blame to take for it, and he took it.
I just think that Hamilton also played quite a decisive role on the incident and I question his way of handling the field under yesterdays difficult situations.
Yes I have to admit I was quite frustrated when he was in front of Alonso on the initial start after the safety car had pulled in, he bunched the field back up, in such appalling conditions that was just dangerous, regardless of any competitive advantage it may have gained. If Hamilton was taken out there, the British media would have unanimously crucified Alonso regardless of any action Hamilton took.

Having said that, Hamilton did play a part in the accident but for its ultimate cause, foolishness on Vettel's behalf prevailed. The same was true on Montoya's behalf in that tunnel as well.

[Ranger]

btw: What about that visibility in tunnels

Good point. But visibility wouldn't have mattered much yesterday because Vettel admitted he wasn't watching Webber at all. Dunno what Montoya's reasoning was like.

[ioan]

Some people around here believe that if another driver made the same mistake a few years ago in totally different conditions, Hamilton's dangerous behavior behind the SC is OK!

Let's see what happens when Lewy gets brake tested next time, how loud will you all be crying out! Not to mention how hard he'll blame everyone else! ;)

[ioan]

Yes I have to admit I was quite frustrated when he was in front of Alonso on the initial start after the safety car had pulled in, he bunched the field back up, in such appalling conditions that was just dangerous, regardless of any competitive advantage it may have gained. If Hamilton was taken out there, the British media would have unanimously crucified Alonso regardless of any action Hamilton took.

Having said that, Hamilton did play a part in the accident but for its ultimate cause, foolishness on Vettel's behalf prevailed. The same was true on Montoya's behalf in that tunnel as well.

Ofcourse Vettel could have at least tried to avoid the accident if he would have paid attention, but we don't know for sure if it was possible either.

[Flat.tyres]

Some people around here believe that if another driver made the same mistake a few years ago in totally different conditions, Hamilton's dangerous behavior behind the SC is OK!

Let's see what happens when Lewy gets brake tested next time, how loud will you all be crying out! Not to mention how hard he'll blame everyone else! ;)

Do you actually know what Brake Testing is? If you are ignorant on this matter, then ask and someone will point out the difference between brake testing and maintaining heat in brakes and tyres.

[jens]

Having cold brakes and tires is something you can adapt to because you feel it and adapt your driving to it accordingly.
But you might not be able to adapt to the brake testing attempts of the idiot in front cause you might not get a second chance after the first lesson.

Arguably Fisichella's retirement at Spa was a result of an accident, which was caused by the fact that he started from the pitlane, didn't participate on the warm-up lap and his brakes cooled down - as a result they simply didn't work and he went off. So therefore I think warming brakes and tyres is more important than you put emphasis on - also that's why drivers take it so seriosly behind SC's.

[truefan72]

Ion

you are completely off point. The incident was between Vettel and Webber, that's it. I didn't hear webber complain abiut Hamilton at all or that he had to brake check.

ALL the drivers were doing what they do in those situations, Vettle just accelerated too much and misjudged the distance between webber and himself.

How the race leader and the driver two cars ahead of Vettel is the root cause of the problem is beyond comprehension and simple logic.

The only rational I can find is that you don't like Hamilton/McClaren ergo anything bad that happens is his/their fault. Don't let your healthy love for Ferrari turn into psychotic adulation.

[Ian McC]

Some people around here believe that if another driver made the same mistake a few years ago in totally different conditions, Hamilton's dangerous behavior behind the SC is OK!

Let's see what happens when Lewy gets brake tested next time, how loud will you all be crying out! Not to mention how hard he'll blame everyone else! ;)

Seems the stewards spent a lot of time debating it too

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~155212.htm

If this is considered dangerous then you would think there should be some sort of directive issued in future, until that happens then others will do the same.

[Flat.tyres]

Seems the stewards spent a lot of time debating it too

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~155212.htm (http://www.crash.net/news_view%7Ecid%7E1%7Eid%7E155212.htm)

If this is considered dangerous then you would think there should be some sort of directive issued in future, until that happens then others will do the same. The Stewards deliberated over the crash. The rest is Crash's spin ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

The Stewards deliberated over the crash.
According to Marca newspaper ;) I wonder if they're as good as The Sun :p

[Bagwan]

How dare that Vettel even suggest that Lewis might have been partly to blame !
Lewis was checking up randomly all around the track , in the rain , with no visibilty behind his car .
He's rather lucky he wasn't collected as well .
And , he had the audacity to say he asked about how Webber was driving dangerously .

[Flat.tyres]

According to Marca newspaper ;) I wonder if they're as good as The Sun :p

What they will do is look at all aspects of the crash, the positions of the cars and the accounts of the Drivers and data boxes. Then they maks a decision.

That has happened but because they looked into the braking of all 3 cars, they therefore had to look at Lewis's braking and therefore he might have been disqualified by association. Forum logic.

:D

[ioan]

Seems the stewards spent a lot of time debating it too

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~155212.htm

If this is considered dangerous then you would think there should be some sort of directive issued in future, until that happens then others will do the same.

They sure did debate it cause it was dangerous at least. But I suppose that Bernie had less troubles to convince 3 stewards than he had to convince the WMSC members to give Lewy the WDC.

WWF is less of a set up than F1 these days.

[Flat.tyres]

They sure did debate it cause it was dangerous at least. But I suppose that Bernie had less troubles to convince 3 stewards than he had to convince the WMSC members to give Lewy the WDC.

WWF is less of a set up than F1 these days.

Link please. I wasn't aware Bernie was there :confused:

[BDunnell]

Never mind a link. I want transcripts of 'phone calls, records of e-mails...

[millencolin]

i was at the race... my first ever grand prix

the fairy tale was happening... webber had a chance of winning

until that MORON Vettel screwed everything up

List of thigs Vettel Screwed up in that one incident.

-Red Bull's best ever result
-Possibly Red Bull's First win
-Possibly Mark Webber's first win
-His first podium gone
-ToroRosso/Minardi's best result
-Gaining STR valuable points in the constructors battle for tv money


Good way to impress your bosses kiddo

[Tazio]

Neither of these sourses are very reliable. And there is a byline that says RUMOR.
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=68008&newlang=&topic=1&catid=1
I don't think he deserved to be diqualified. But, don't be surprised if there is a policy adjustment in regaurd to this practice(warming brakes) in such treacherous conditions in the future.

[janneppi]

Hamilton was indeed investigated for the Webtel incindent. ;)

[Kevincal]

I feel bad for Vettel. Obviously, it wasn't intentional. It had to do with the conditions. He's only 20. Showing him with his helmet and Hans device still intact with his hands on his face tells me that he, of anyone, feels the worst about what he did to Webber. I'm sure Webber, being the class guy he is, came to Vettel to talk about it and give him a pat on the back. I'm sure there's nothing between the two, as both guys seem like really cool guys. It would have been another story if it were dry conditions, but anything can happen in those horrible conditions. Just look at Alonso, 2 time world champion having a big wreck in a simple corner... I know it was under safety car, but look how close LH and FA came to wrecking at the beginning of the race behind the safety car...

[raikk]

quite an unfortunte way to go out but this happens to the best of drivers... all you can do is learn from it and move on..

[wmcot]

You are on the motorway, and it's pi55ing down with rain, traffic all around you, but only one vehicle in front. What do you do, drive so close to the car in front and risk an accident, or (and I might give you clue here) LEAVE ENOUGH ROOM SO YOU CAN BRAKE IN TIME IF NEED BE?


Hopefully he's not accelerating and then slamming on his brakes repeatedly!

I don't think Hamilton, Webber or Vettel were 100% to blame on their own. I think it was a portion to all three of them plus a large portion to the weather. Everyone is talking about how Vettel ruined Webber's race, but don't forget that he also "ruined" his own terrific race! Nobody did anything intentional to take anyone else out (I believe that's why they call them "accidents.")