Ahmadenijad's visit to Columbia University.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This loon finally was shown what democracy really means. He was invited to speak, to a bunch of semi-naive heads full of mush who he could preach his Anti-Bush, Anti-Israel, Anti-Jew message to, and he was blindsided by a president who gave him a 30 min intro that basically exposed what this man is, and then had to answer awkward questions from the students, who no doubt were astonished to find out that the Holocaust maybe should be investigated and needed more research, that women's rights in Iran are the best anywhere ( a country that stones women regularly for various "crimes" ) and that Homosexuals do not exist in Iran.

Oh yes....a fine man, who was allowed to speak because that is what democracy is all about, .....oh wait a minute, I was channeling Eki there for a second.

No, he isn't a fine man, he is a thug and a dangerous man, but nevertheless, he was allowed to speak and I was glad. It is about time people saw what evil is all about......and saw it first hand. He was on his BEST behaviour yesterday but believe me, he didn't like being exposed for what he is. If he was truly a man of intergrity, good will towards man and a man of reason, he wouldn't have had a libreal college president dress him down like he was yesterday.

Now...what is your opinion? I can guess, and even tease Eki a little, but the point is, i would hate to think there is anyone posting regularily on this board who would support this loon....

[Dave B]

"I'm a dinner jacket" is right that homosexuals don't exist in Iran, but only because he has them killed :s

[luvracin]

Now...what is your opinion? I can guess, and even tease Eki a little, but the point is, i would hate to think there is anyone posting regularily on this board who would support this loon....

To be honest I was surprised by some of his responses. I mean, most of them didn't even make any sense!? I have to wonder how the hell he even got elected/selected or whatever you want to call it. Ok, maybe a little was lost in translation but to me he came across as just plain dumb.

[Eki]

he came across as just plain dumb.
Another thing in common with Bush then, eh? Anyhow, he asked a very valid point IMO, namely why must the Palestinians suffer for what Germans and other Europeans did in WW2, the big one.

[Malbec]

who no doubt were astonished to find out that the Holocaust maybe should be investigated and needed more research

I wouldn't twist his words like that.

This was one part of his speech I cannot fault and I totally agree with.

He is absolutely 100% correct when he says that there is no episode in history that is closed to further analysis forever with only a single opinion allowed.

He wisely didn't address the issue of the Holocaust itself but the bigger picture of historical research and he played on the West's weak point and he knew it.

Its perfectly acceptable to question just about any part of history. Your local bookshop is full of divergent opinions on just about any historical event you can think of, yet when it comes to the Holocaust only one opinion is allowed. Having a different opinion can land you in jail in some countries.

While most of the rest of his speech did show him to be a bit of a fool or naive, he had a strong argument on that one single case. Its a little hypocritical for a set of countries that pride themselves on freedom of speech to stifle it regarding just one topic isn't it?

[Malbec]

Another thing in common with Bush then, eh?

He has a lot in common with Bush actually. I suspect that if they met each other outside the context of being president of two opposing countries they'd get on like a house on fire. They are both popular and unpopular in their own countries for nearly identical reasons.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Ahmadinejad dumb but at best he's very naive and ignorant of issues especially regarding foreign policy and economics. He came to power promising cheap loans to the poor so they could afford housing then found out there wasn't any money in the treasury to do it.

[BDunnell]

"I'm a dinner jacket" is right that homosexuals don't exist in Iran, but only because he has them killed :s

I think his name sounds rather like 'Have my dinner, Dad'. But I digress.

[leopard]

Now...what is your opinion? I can guess, and even tease Eki a little, but the point is, i would hate to think there is anyone posting regularily on this board who would support this loon....

What sort of opinion you are expecting? He used to teach University before running into president election and his seat remains empty and may anytime come back at campus, so in the event he makes presidential visit he would visit and make an address at the university.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Another thing in common with Bush then, eh? Anyhow, he asked a very valid point IMO, namely why must the Palestinians suffer for what Germans and other Europeans did in WW2, the big one.

Palestinians should first start working instead of being lazy bums and relying on Western and Israeli grants for living. That Gaza strip has probably the highest density of PhDs per sq km in world yet produces nothing.

[Eki]

Palestinians should first start working instead of being lazy bums and relying on Western and Israeli grants for living. That Gaza strip has probably the highest density of PhDs per sq km in world yet produces nothing.
They might start working if their jobs wouldn't happen to be in Israel or Israel stopped denying them access to Israel and their work.

[leopard]

How could start working if they have to loss their land where do they live? If they don't want to get back at 1946 where the Palestine-Israel land was just basically Palestine, just get back at 1967 and start getting along.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Their jobs just happen to be in Israel because it is Israelis who are kin on starting businesses and creating jobs. Palestinians only care for international welfare. It is high time for them to start earning income within their own territory. Otherwise when there is a Palestinian state, it will be a again a burden for international donors and a ready supplier of terrorists for all kinds of Crimson Jihads.

Only that one has the right who has the responsibility. Freedom is for self-sufficient people, not parasites.

[Peter Mandelson]

This loon finally was shown what democracy really means. He was invited to speak, to a bunch of semi-naive heads full of mush who he could preach his Anti-Bush, Anti-Israel, Anti-Jew message to, and he was blindsided by a president who gave him a 30 min intro that basically exposed what this man is, and then had to answer awkward questions from the students, who no doubt were astonished to find out that the Holocaust maybe should be investigated and needed more research, that women's rights in Iran are the best anywhere ( a country that stones women regularly for various "crimes" ) and that Homosexuals do not exist in Iran.

Oh yes....a fine man, who was allowed to speak because that is what democracy is all about, .....oh wait a minute, I was channeling Eki there for a second.

No, he isn't a fine man, he is a thug and a dangerous man, but nevertheless, he was allowed to speak and I was glad. It is about time people saw what evil is all about......and saw it first hand. He was on his BEST behaviour yesterday but believe me, he didn't like being exposed for what he is. If he was truly a man of intergrity, good will towards man and a man of reason, he wouldn't have had a libreal college president dress him down like he was yesterday.

Now...what is your opinion? I can guess, and even tease Eki a little, but the point is, i would hate to think there is anyone posting regularily on this board who would support this loon....

he is a loon? nah
you are talking about yourself
i hope you are old and loon enough to die soon so you no longer have to suffer your own loonism


he took Iran's national university entrance exams (konkoor) to gain admission into Iran's top universities His test score ranked him 132nd among over 400,000 participantshe received his Ph.D. in transportation engineering and planning from the Science and Technology University.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad#Personal_life_and_education

do some research first loonie!!

[Peter Mandelson]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,507443,00.html

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier opposes French calls for European Union sanctions against Iran. He will back up his case with German Foreign Ministry data showing that leading French and American companies are conducting large amounts of business with Iran.

Even more explosive is the data that reveals US hypocrisy over sanctions. The German Foreign Ministry accuses American firms of bypassing the boycott against Iran, which has been in place since 1979, by creating front companies in Dubai to carry out their business. German politicians have long internally accused the United States of knowingly tolerating the practice.



i think Mark in Oshawa is Guilty of Hypocrisy on anything non American

When the American empire fade away, Mark will also die Hypocrisily

[leopard]

I think the term of jihad refers more to defensive action toward those claimed their land and keep disturbing them from living peacefully.

I think as soon as they have de facto and de jure independence they could start building their own life. That's surely traffic of trade come into Palestine can't get trough Israel considering they have claimed and controlled the strategical economic region.

[Eki]

I think the US media should try to educate more and fan flames of hatred less. FoxNews ran a front page headline telling that Ahmadinejad's visit insulted military families and interviewed someone whose son had died in Fallujah. HELLO!!! Iran and Iraq are two different countries, and Fallujah is predominantly Sunni while Iran is predominantly Shiia. I criticize the US often, but if Mexicans or Canadians do something, I don't blame the US.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298038,00.html

[Rudy Tamasz]

I think the term of jihad refers more to defensive action toward those claimed their land and keep disturbing them from living peacefully.

I think as soon as they have de facto and de jure independence they could start building their own life. That's surely traffic of trade come into Palestine can't get trough Israel considering they have claimed and controlled the strategical economic region.

What a nice position on part of Palestinians! Let's have everything set up for us and then we'll bother to start working and feeding ourselves. Well, later... Maybe... At some point in the future... Unless US and EU no longer give us free stuff...

[L5->R5/CR]

My hat is off to Columbia University.

Driving for way to long on monday we were browsing the AM channels in the flyover states here in the US and there were a lot of angry right wing radio hosts which didn't surprise me but disappointed me. I think Ahmadenijad is a creep, a thug, and scum not fit to be stepped over BUT I would kill for a chance to hear him speak in person.

College speakers are supposed to be important, influential, perhaps contraversial, and new making individuals. I am glad that some of my fellow students were able to have the opportunity to hear what the man has for himself. I can almost guarantee that nobody that went believed a single word of what he said, and that he was never going to gain any supporters. But to have the chance to see someone like Ahmadenijad speak in person would be a fantastic experience, let alone a learning experience...

[Malbec]

What a nice position on part of Palestinians! Let's have everything set up for us and then we'll bother to start working and feeding ourselves. Well, later... Maybe... At some point in the future... Unless US and EU no longer give us free stuff...

Rudy, I suggest you do some research on Palestinians.

You're quite right, the Gaza strip and the West Bank are not economically developed but since they are utterly dependent on Israel allowing imports/exports to pass through their borders which are frequently sealed thats no surprise is it.

Palestinians are working bloody hard. They just don't do it in the Gaza Strip and West Bank where they know its futile. They travel across the Middle East, America and Europe, work hard and send the money home. Financial renumerations from ex-pat Palestinians are what is keeping the Palestinian economy alive at a time when the Israelis aren't letting in as many Palestinian workers.

The amount the Arabs, EU and US are giving the Palestinians pales in comparison.

[Eki]

They just don't do it in the Gaza Strip and West Bank where they know its futile.
Yes, why start a business where the Israeli Air Force can come the next day and blow it up.

[Malbec]

How could start working if they have to loss their land where do they live? If they don't want to get back at 1946 where the Palestine-Israel land was just basically Palestine, just get back at 1967 and start getting along.

They CAN'T get back to the 1967 borders. Israel won't allow it which is why they're building a huge wall in the West Bank to protect land occupied by Israeli settlers outside of the pre-1967 borders.....

Anyone arguing for Israel to return to pre-67 borders isn't living in the real world. It will never happen.

[leopard]

That's the deepest concern why should they build the separation wall after they succeeded encircle Palestine with the stolen land controlled territory of Israel.

Separation wall is not solution, imagine how can Palestine make contact to the neighbors each other and make the more proper life when it's encircled and all the traffic are utterly depend on Israel that such access may anytime sealed.

Besides, the wall separation is only aimed to isolate Palestine and prevent them from destroying property built by Israel, but not guarantee that Israel will stop bothering Palestine.

[Hondo]

This by recollection only, I don't really feel like going back and researching all the facts, nor am I taking any sides so please don't throw your rocks at me. I encourge anybody who is interested to go back and check for themselves.

Palestine was under the control of the British at the time when the ruckus for a Jewish Homeland started. This was well before WW II. Palestine was acceptable to the Jewish homeland movement and as the British could detect NO SENSE OF PALESTINIAN UNITY OR NATIONALISM, Palestine it would be.

Neighboring Arab states had a real problem with this Jewish Homeland and in the conflicts that followed, encourged the Palestinians to refugee out of the areas until the Arabs gave it back to them. Not knowing the Arab armies would collapse like a house of cards, the Palestinians fled and when that started, the Israelis, fearing partisan actions behind the lines from those that stayed, moved the ones that didn't go out with the refugees. It is possible, that without the Arab call to evacuate, there wouldn't be a Palestinian "problem" today. Up until then, everyone got along pretty well together.

Now, Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel that are working. The other Arab countries pay the Palestinians lip service and make noise about their cause, but don't want or care about them either. Lebanon got stuck with them because they aren't strong enough to throw them out. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy. They were used by the Arabs and betrayed by the Arabs. They were used and betrayed by Yasser Arafat, which considering the billions of dollars of personal wealth he scammed off the Palestinian movement, is probably why he is not held up by the Palestinians or anyone else as a national hero. With the funds he controlled, he could have bought a homeland. Now the Palestinians are a political football to be used or kicked by anyone that sees an advantage in doing so. Like it or not, it's time for them to move on and use the wealth they were able to get back from Arafat's wife and pursue something both positive and possible for themselves. Maybe move to Finland and start the Palestine Party. For all the noise of Syria and Iran, I doubt they could field an army that can take Israel down and I seriously doubt either side would be dumb enough to go nuclear.

[leopard]

This by recollection only, I don't really feel like going back and researching all the facts, nor am I taking any sides so please don't throw your rocks at me. ...

Don't be afraid, we are not jihad ;) :)

[SOD]

needs more water :rolleyes:

[leopard]

I think Syiria and Iran are only sort of concern that Palestine and Israel problem have never come to an end that in their POV Israel should stop bothering Palestine, instead of considering their army and nuclear power have ability to take Israel down.

Israel using their power may keep taking Palestine out of the region, or make them annihilated, and those who have ability to survive may refuge to neighbor country, and settle down there. But history will note this a biggest human violation and unforgotten crimes on human right of life.

Refuging onto neighbor countries wouldn't be good idea, why should run away from their own homeland and burdening the neighbor country?

They, the two parties involved where the real solution actually lies in. Do Israel have enough sense of humanity to let Palestine stay and live together with them? Maybe profile of leader that can accommodate more their importances that enable them to cooperate together is what currently they need. May peace prevail on earth. ;(

Use the wealth of Ms Arafat? :)

[Eki]

Ahmadinejad welcomes Bush to speak at an Iranian university. I don't think Bush has the balls to do that:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298424,00.html

Iran President Welcomes President Bush to Speak at an Iranian University

Friday, September 28, 2007

AP

TEHRAN, Iran — Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has extended an invitation to U.S. President George W. Bush to speak at an Iranian university if the American leader ever traveled to the Islamic Republic, state-run television reported Friday.

As part of his controversial trip to New York, the hardline Iranian leader spoke Monday at Columbia University, where he faced hostile questioning and a combative introduction by the university's president, who said Ahmadinejad exhibited "all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator."

"If their president plans to travel to Iran, we will allow him to make a speech" at a university, Ahmadinejad told state TV before leaving New York to travel to South America earlier this week.

[Hondo]

I'm really with Eki on this one. I see absolutely no harm with Bush and Ahmadinejad (I wish the Iranians had elected somebody named Jones, or Smith, or something) and having some face to face talks. Maybe a weekend at Camp David or something. There's nothing to lose and a possibility of something to gain, so why not try it? Just the 2 of them and translators. These guys need to meet informally where they can leave all the posing and posturing behind.

[BDunnell]

I'm really with Eki on this one. I see absolutely no harm with Bush and Ahmadinejad (I wish the Iranians had elected somebody named Jones, or Smith, or something) and having some face to face talks. Maybe a weekend at Camp David or something. There's nothing to lose and a possibility of something to gain, so why not try it? Just the 2 of them and translators. These guys need to meet informally where they can leave all the posing and posturing behind.

I couldn't agree more. History tells us that this is the best way forward.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, first off, Mandelson, I ceased taking you seriously a long time ago. You my friend are not worthy of any actual debate because your method of debating is to just put others down as wrong without proof. I can live with ignoring your posts just fine.

I just asked for a bunch of opinions on what was said by this man who purports to be a man of reason but sanctions the killing of homosexuals, the subjugation of women, and the practicing of stoning of victims. He funds Hezbollah, denies that the Holocaust never happened, and that Israel and it Jews must be driven into the sea. These are all heinous thoughts by themselves, and while some of you might try to rationalize away some of his ideas, or try to make sense of them, the truth is that is what he believes in. All of it is out there for public inspection, except for those in Iran, who have no real access to an uncensored internet. Just another thought you should keep in mind when you hear this man speak.

I defend Columbia's right to invite him, but I do find it amusing that they will stop anyone they feel is "too right wing" for their tastes from speaking. I guess they are afraid they might have to look at something from another angle. Frightful thought that, being exposed to the arena of ideas from a point of view you are against.

"I am a Dinner Jacket" is a fine example of a corrupt theocracy that uses religion to bludgeon its people. The one saving grace in all of this is that Iran is actually unstable under this theocracy, and the youth of Iran are reportedly quite unhappy with the straight jacket his government has put them in.

As for the endless posts debating the Palestinian issue, that isnt' the thread. Go start your own thread on that, I would be happy to participate. What I wanted was a debate about the merits of this man speaking, and to an extent what he is saying. I think it was englightening. Luvracin said she couldn't understand why this man was elected President. For those who don't know, in Iran elections are between people ordained to be politically reliable by the Mullahs who really hold sway. Sort of like voting for Fidel Castro isn't it? You have no choice, but you vote because if you don't, you are a target of the regime. IT was either this loon, or some other loon. He isn't saying anything the Mullahs don't want him to say believe me.

Arab and Islamic history is full of antipathy for the Jews, but they were always tolerated as the decendents of Abraham, the same way Muslims are. That said, our Iranian friend is attempting to do what many Arab dictators have tried, to unite Islam against the Jews and finish off Israel; and to create an Islamic brotherhood to take over their right ful place running the world in time. If you refuse to see that, go read the words of this man, the senseless ramblings of Saddam Hussein and Muammar Qadafi. All of these leaders preach of most of the same hatred, and the only difference is, the Iranians are Shi-ites and unlikely to be trusted by the Sunnis, but the same sort of nonsense is preached. Israel is the enemy, there was no Holocaust or conversely, the Germans botched the job. Then united all of Islam to eliminate the infidels from the holy lands.

Now, you guys can dispute what you like, and call Bush names (he has nothing to do with this conversation really, other than yes, maybe he should talk to this loon to his face and tell him that his behaviour and mores are not really civilzied and that he is leading his country into a no win situation) and drag up all the old arguments against Isreal, but there are two things you must realize:

1) "I am a dinner jacket" is a dangerous man, and he would jail all of us for speaking so freely if we were in Iran. and

2) There will be no war with Iran in the immediate future unless this lunatic actually goes out of his way to start one. Despite all of the nasty crap many of you hold against Bush, he isn't that dumb. Nor is the leadership in both parties in the US nor the American people as a whole. Oh they dislike the Iranian government and this goof enough to wish him dead, but to invade Iran would make Iraq look like a child's school yard dispute. The US Military is advising against Iam sure. No, common sense will prevail on that one, and we will see what we see for the immediate future until the US either wins enough face in Iraq to leave, or our Shi-ite friend there provokes some other conflict.

[Eki]

I couldn't agree more. History tells us that this is the best way forward.
Two examples: 1) Nixon in China 2) Reagan and Gorbatschov

[rah]

A few things to keep in mind: Iran will hold elections in the next year or so I believe. Many Iranians are predicting a moderate president as the current one is saying some pretty embarrassing things. The only way he will get the support to stay in power is if the US attacks Iran.

Iran is not an Arabic country and this should not be forgotten.

I think the president of the Uni was a bit inflammatory and could have used the forum to promote peace.

As for Columbia not inviting someone who is too right wing, wouldn't Ahmadinejad be considered right wing?

My personal view is that this bloke is a bit of a muppet, but there will be a change in Iran soon.

[Malbec]

Palestine was under the control of the British at the time when the ruckus for a Jewish Homeland started. This was well before WW II. Palestine was acceptable to the Jewish homeland movement and as the British could detect NO SENSE OF PALESTINIAN UNITY OR NATIONALISM, Palestine it would be.

It wasn't QUITE like that.

The Brits were in control of Palestine with a majority Arab population but the Jews were vocal and more importantly militant in demanding a Jewish homeland. They targetted Palestine specifically because it contained Jerusalem and emigrated there in droves.

There were many attacks on British troops and civil servants at a time when the British had other things on their hands, ie WW2. Many of the attacks were what we would now classify as terrorist attacks such as the King David Hotel bomb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Rather amusingly Netanyahu attended the 60th anniversary celebrations of that bombing at the height of the bombing of Lebanon, unveiling a plaque to commemorate the incident. Whats the hebrew for irony again?

By 1947 the British had had enough. They couldn't get out of there fast enough so left the Jews and Palestinians to it. The Jews were better equipped and trained, including many vets from the Allied forces who brought their superior experience to bear on the Arabs who were in some cases commanded by British officers. The rest is history.

That is why you'll still hear quotes from Israelis about the innate antisemitism of the EU.

[Malbec]

I'm really with Eki on this one. I see absolutely no harm with Bush and Ahmadinejad (I wish the Iranians had elected somebody named Jones, or Smith, or something) and having some face to face talks. Maybe a weekend at Camp David or something. There's nothing to lose and a possibility of something to gain, so why not try it? Just the 2 of them and translators. These guys need to meet informally where they can leave all the posing and posturing behind.

I agree, there's so much the two countries have in common at the moment as well in terms of foreign policy interest.

Those two leaders probably won't be ideal though, since both Bush and Ahmadinejad are unlikely to ever be voted back in we can wait for their hopefully more moderate replacements.

[leopard]

Arab and Islamic history is full of antipathy for the Jews, but they were always tolerated as the decendents of Abraham, the same way Muslims are. That said, our Iranian friend is attempting to do what many Arab dictators have tried, to unite Islam against the Jews and finish off Israel; and to create an Islamic brotherhood to take over their right ful place running the world in time. If you refuse to see that, go read the words of this man, the senseless ramblings of Saddam Hussein and Muammar Qadafi. All of these leaders preach of most of the same hatred, and the only difference is, the Iranians are Shi-ites and unlikely to be trusted by the Sunnis, but the same sort of nonsense is preached. Israel is the enemy, there was no Holocaust or conversely, the Germans botched the job. Then united all of Islam to eliminate the infidels from the holy lands.


This would be better to put something in the right place, we canot deny history that is right considering Arab and Jews as the same descendant of Ibrahim, they are supposed to live hand in hand peacefully. Islam isn't the responsible party for the holocaust and therefore Jews needn't have positioned in cross of Islam.

The antipathy of Jews commenced from Zionism concept as reflection of the tight tolerance and emphatic against this doctrine and was worsened by declaration of Balfour. This has been success measured as a transfer of the Jews conflict into Arab and Islam in general. ;)

[BrentJackson]

Another thing in common with Bush then, eh? Anyhow, he asked a very valid point IMO, namely why must the Palestinians suffer for what Germans and other Europeans did in WW2, the big one.

Ya know, it was kinda because that was the homeland of Judaism long before either Islam or Christianity, and they were persecuted regularly by the British in order to keep the Muslims form going nuts pre-WWII. After WWII, with 6 milion dead Jews as a result of the holocaust, they got their back up and said we aren't taking it any more.

Ya know Eki, if the Palestinians weren't shooting rockets and blowing stuff up trying to kill Israelis all the time, maybe they would be suffering right now. That street goes both ways my friend.

[leopard]

Help me translate the last paragraph.

If Palestines didn't shoot Isralis the rockets, they would be suffering
so If Palestines keep shooting the rockets, they would be hilarious ?

well that is true it goes both ways and both of them the loser ;)

[BrentJackson]

The problem that exists between Iran and the the USA is not entirely Bush's doing. That largely lies with Shah Reza Pahlavi, who died in 1980. Ruhollah Khomeini and the US locked horns when the students seized the American embassy. Iran went form devoutly secular to very Islamic in nature almost overnight, and things have changed but not as much as some would like. Ahmadinejad is just another in a long line of Muslim leaders trying to make up for their shortcomings by pushing for a fight with someone else.

Israel is the obvious target because they are the nation with was carved form force of arms, one which has driven a huge number of people to move somewhere else and they aren't exactly kind to Arabs. That does not lie with Israel in general, that's the nation and its history. Many Israelis are not Islamophobes or racists, but Israel is a product of the holocaust and the believed antisemitism in Europe and the rest of the world. Many Israelis believe that the only defense they have is themselves and their own weapons, and the numerous cases of anti-semitism from other faiths - of which the Holocaust is just one example - back this up. The most extreme of the groups believe that ALL of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights and the Sinai is Israeli by right.

Israel's political system gives very disproportionate power to small parties, which is why you get these nutjobs - who are just as extreme as Khomeini ever was - in positions of political power. The Arabs play right into the hands of these guys every time Hamas or Hezbollah attacks somebody. The Israelis are brutal towards the Palestinians, but they justify it because of the security threats, which sadly is enough for many in the West. But what if the Arabs decided non-violent resistance is good enough to make a point? The first time the Israelis get caught killing unarmed protesters their international support is history. The Arabs will one day figure this out, and when they do the violence will stop.

Ahmadinejad is an anti-Semite. He has openly questioned the existence of the Holocaust. Anybody who has ever been to Auschwitz - and I have - and knows what happened there, the evil chills you right down to your bones. That is no cliche either, it's extremely real. To claim that the Holocaust is a myth after being to Auschwitz to me classifies as insanity. The rules obeyed in Iran are by our standards draconian, and I think its is only appropriate that Columbia's President made that clear right off. Comparing George Bush to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not warranted - dumb and narrow-minded as Bush can be, he's not an anti-semite, homophobe or against free speech. Comparing the two is outright stupidity.

The Palestinians are among the most crafty, intelligent and educated of all Arabs. I think the similarities between them and Jews are quite striking. Both are unwanted or at best tolerated peoples with no place to go. They earned respect by working their way into positions of power and influence. IMO, when the problems with the Israelis end and Palestine exists, if it is managed decently how fast do ya think it will be one of the best nations in Arab world economically? They will get it together, it's just a matter of when.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Again, I wont argue about Palestinians and Israel on this thread, I think I made my points already on that score belonging to another thread. Brent hit things pretty much on the money I think.

As for you guys arguing about Israel, just remember that the Moslem tyrants who hate Israel do so to keep the guillable Moslem "street" unified in hatred towards something other than pushing them out of office. If they didn't have the Jews, they would have to invent something else. For those of you so caught up in the myth that Israel is perpetrating this mess just remember that. Also remember that the Islamic fascist rulers (most of them) and their antecedents such as King Abudullah of Jordan, old man Assad in Syria, Hussein in Iraq and Nasser in Egypt have collectively lost 4 wars to the Israeli's and yet spend VERY little helping the Palestinians live a better life. The US, the HATED US has given as much money as anyone to help these people in Aid, as opposed to the Iranians, who make sure the money is spent on arms for their Shiite Hezbollah friends and the always anti Semite members of Hamas. Peace with people trying to kill you is a little difficult.

Now..can someone reopen this can of worms under their own name with the title more appropriate. I was trying to argue the merits of the limit of free speech, and somehow we started again on this Israeli/Palestianian thing...

[leopard]

Peace with people trying to kill you is a little difficult.

as difficult as creating peace with people keep stealing your land ;)

Why should we have opinion that Islam has that pleasure inventing something without reason to whatever if there is no Jews around, Do they have hobbies killing others?

That deserves respect US has made great deal of donation on most humanity aid in the world, and It would gain more respect if it also facilitate the more fair solution to the peace on earth and not for the interest of one of those in the conflict.

[leopard]

Ahmadinejad is profile of populist president who fight for destiny of grassroots which mostly Iranian are in this stage instead of interest of couple of the elites. He declared that he is up against terrorism and will never support terrorism exists. People tend to classify a leader with this characteristic as conservative while those who work for important of elites as moderate. It's different case, to put priority of the common people to be equal or approaching those have better prosperity is good mission, and NOT conservative and automatically confrontational in cross of US.

I didn't see anything wrong with Ahmadinejad speech about homosexual issue.
We can't judge a president bad because he is afraid of homosexual.
Why would we as a man do like man, while we know that relationship between a man and woman fells great and exciting? ;)

[Eki]

Peace with people trying to kill you is a little difficult.

Doesn't that go without saying? If they are trying to kill you, it means there's a war. A war means there's need for peace. Peace is easy with people who you're already in peace with.

[BrentJackson]

as difficult as creating peace with people keep stealing your land ;)

Which was at the latest in 1967. 40 years is a helluval ong time to hold a grudge, don't ya think? Besides, nothing FORCED them to leave in many cases. Israel has over a million and a half Muslim Arab citizens. One of them is a cabinet member in the current government.

Israel's security, to them, is their number one concern. When that is alleviated, the Palestinians won't have to worry about that any longer.


Why should we have opinion that Islam has that pleasure inventing something without reason to whatever if there is no Jews around, Do they have hobbies killing others?

It isn't Islam doing that. It's the very stupid bunch of Muslim leaders. Ahmadinejad is just one of these. The Emir of Qatar is one such smarter muslim leader. He rules a Wahabbist Islamic country, yet their laws with regards to women are very open. They have a democratic council, even if the Emir can over-rule them. (That doesn't happen often, mind you.) Qatar is not a liberal nation by our standards (or Israel's), but compared to Iran or Saudi Arabia its very liberal, scarily so.


That deserves respect US has made great deal of donation on most humanity aid in the world, and It would gain more respect if it also facilitate the more fair solution to the peace on earth and not for the interest of one of those in the conflict.

They can do more to shove on Israel, but as we all know the Israelis have a big, powerful lobby and vote bloc in Congress - and any government doesn't want to run afoul of them. But an act that neutralizes that problem would make iteasier. That could well have been the case when Baruch Goldstein walked into the Temple of the Patriarchs and murdered 29 Palestinians in cold blood. Sooner or later, they'll screw up again - and when they do, then things will change in a hurry.

[L5->R5/CR]

I would just like to point out the brilliance of Ahmadenijad and his speaking engagements.

Instead of discussing him, Iran, and the crazy Ayatollahs you are debating other more impossible issues. Every time he speaks he strategically says outlandish things that makes everybody talk about things other than his brutal petty self and Iran.

Just thought I would point that out.

[Eki]

Which was at the latest in 1967. 40 years is a helluval ong time to hold a grudge, don't ya think?
So is 28 years and the 1979 hostage "crises", since the US has held a grudge towards Iran. Or 48 years and 1959, since the US has has held a grudge towards Cuba.

[BrentJackson]

So is 28 years and the 1979 hostage "crises", since the US has held a grudge towards Iran. Or 48 years and 1959, since the US has has held a grudge towards Cuba.

Let's look at those.

Iran agitates everyone around them. They call America the "Great Satan" all the time. They fund terrorism. You think the US cares about what happened in 1979 any more? Doubt it. Do they care about terrorist attacks and taking British soldiers hostage? You betcha, because there are 140,000 US troops just over the border in Iraq right now.

Cuba is only an agitant because of Miami. Cuban expatriates are almost a majority in Miami, and they hate Fidel Castro more than Ahmadinejad hates Israel. Want proof? In 1990, Nelson Mandela (recently out of prison) on a stop in Australia thanked Castro and Cuba for their support of the ANC. What happened when he showed up in Miami? They told him to get out. They dropped a bunch of racial slurs on him. The black community wanted an apology and didn't get it. The result was a race riot.

Eki, why don't you do all of us a favor and just admit that you hate America and everything and everyone in it?

[Roamy]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,507443,00.html

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier opposes French calls for European Union sanctions against Iran. He will back up his case with German Foreign Ministry data showing that leading French and American companies are conducting large amounts of business with Iran.

Even more explosive is the data that reveals US hypocrisy over sanctions. The German Foreign Ministry accuses American firms of bypassing the boycott against Iran, which has been in place since 1979, by creating front companies in Dubai to carry out their business. German politicians have long internally accused the United States of knowingly tolerating the practice.



i think Mark in Oshawa is Guilty of Hypocrisy on anything non American

When the American empire fade away, Mark will also die Hypocrisily


Peter when the American empire fades away this whole ****ing planet will be glowing for years and years!!

[Roamy]

So is 28 years and the 1979 hostage "crises", since the US has held a grudge towards Iran. Or 48 years and 1959, since the US has has held a grudge towards Cuba.

Ok Eki lets meet in the middle - We will embrace Cuba and blow the sh!t out of Iran.

who says I am rigid!!

[Roamy]

"I'm a dinner jacket" is right that homosexuals don't exist in Iran, but only because he has them killed :s

Yep "Suck a Dick and lose the Kingdom" He makes the rules !!

[Roamy]

I'm really with Eki on this one. I see absolutely no harm with Bush and Ahmadinejad (I wish the Iranians had elected somebody named Jones, or Smith, or something) and having some face to face talks. Maybe a weekend at Camp David or something. There's nothing to lose and a possibility of something to gain, so why not try it? Just the 2 of them and translators. These guys need to meet informally where they can leave all the posing and posturing behind.

How about he goes to Camp David with Mr Smith and Mr Wesson!!

[SOD]

Peter when the American empire fades away this whole ****ing planet will be glowing for years and years!!

well fousto, your greenback is worthless and it's only a matter of time before furriners start demanding to be paid with something of value for their goods. Give us the stuff for free or we use our nuclear weapons on you is not a great business model.

[Roamy]

HA Sod you don't get it. The whole economic picture is all controlled. We just bought Chrysler back from Benz for pennies on the dollar. Many other foreign investments will go in the tank as well. New one coming in now spur our economy while we buy out others. Remember when the Japanese bought all the golf courses over here? We ended up buying them back for a song.

All the economics is a bit above you and I Sod - the only thing we need to worry about is who is going to get the big one

[SOD]

who is buying Chrysler cars these days?

The Japanese were highly leveraged, they bought up everything because they could borrow against the increasing prices of their properties.

The CHinese will end up owning Fannie Mac, who'se yer landlord?

I guess that's why Dubai wants to buy up the NASDAQ, the ports etc... Figure it out for yerself, everytime the Arabs don't get their piece of AMerica, the dollar drops.

[BrentJackson]

HA Sod you don't get it. The whole economic picture is all controlled. We just bought Chrysler back from Benz for pennies on the dollar. Many other foreign investments will go in the tank as well. New one coming in now spur our economy while we buy out others. Remember when the Japanese bought all the golf courses over here? We ended up buying them back for a song.

All the economics is a bit above you and I Sod - the only thing we need to worry about is who is going to get the big one

Chrysler got screwed up royally by Mercedes because they got rid of all of Chrysler's people who got them places in the 1990s and replaced them with their people. Then they shocked when that was a giant clusterf***, but thought it was the Americans who got it wrong, not them. Their arrogance got them. I hope that they can get it back.

As for the Japanese, believe me you DO NOT advertise being an American in Japan. The Japanese were never exactly a wide open society, and the stuff that happened in the early 90s made them hate Americans for stealing from them.

Fousto, if a government said what you just did NOBODY would invest in America, and us Canucks would be saying "OK, somebody else want to buy our stuff?" The age of empires is long, long over.

[Eki]

Gen. David Petraeus charged that Tehran's ambassador to Baghdad was once a member of Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards force:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299940,00.html

So what if he was? Bush was once a member of the US National Guard.

[BrentJackson]

Gen. David Petraeus charged that Tehran's ambassador to Baghdad was once a member of Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards force:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299940,00.html

So what if he was? Bush was once a member of the US National Guard.

There is a BIG difference between the Texas Air National Guard and Iran's Revolutionary Guards. The Revolutionary Guards were the guys who took a bunch of Americans hostage in 1979. I don't recall the Air National Guard ever committing terrorism.

[L5->R5/CR]

Gen. David Petraeus charged that Tehran's ambassador to Baghdad was once a member of Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards force:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299940,00.html

So what if he was? Bush was once a member of the US National Guard.



You don't see the difference between someone being an active member of a secretive somewhat clandestine organization that openly promotes and supports terrorist groups versus being a former/current member of a countries uniformed armed forces?

The allegation is similar to saying the Ambassador is a member of a countries intelligence services black operations arm...

[Eki]

The allegation is similar to saying the Ambassador is a member of a countries intelligence services black operations arm...
You mean like John Negroponte, the US Ambassador to Iraq in 2004-2005? He was in Honduras in the 80s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Negroponte


From 1981 to 1985, Negroponte was the U.S. ambassador to Honduras. During this time, military aid to Honduras grew from $4 million to $77.4 million a year, and the US began to maintain a significant military presence there, with the goal of providing a bulwark against the revolutionary Sandinista government of Nicaragua, which had overthrown the Somoza government and then created a state with close ties to both Cuba and the Soviet Union.

The previous U.S. ambassador to Honduras, Jack Binns (who was appointed by President Jimmy Carter) made numerous complaints about human rights abuses by the Honduran military under the government of Policarpo Paz García. Following the inauguration of Ronald Reagan, Binns was replaced by Negroponte, who has denied having knowledge of any wrongdoing by Honduran military forces.

[BrentJackson]

You missed again. It is not the ambassador's doing that more guns went to Honduras. That doesn't make him a member of a terrorist organization Eki. The Revolutionary Guards are well-known terrorism supporters.

How many straws you gonna grasp at Eki?

[Eki]

You missed again. It is not the ambassador's doing that more guns went to Honduras. That doesn't make him a member of a terrorist organization Eki. The Revolutionary Guards are well-known terrorism supporters.

How many straws you gonna grasp at Eki?
I can't see why giving military aid to Hamas is bad but giving military aid to the terrorist organization Contras in Nicaragua is good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduras


During the 1980s, the United States established a very large military presence in Honduras with the purpose of supporting the Iran-Contra Affair, anti-Sandinista Contras fighting the Nicaraguan government, and to support the El Salvador military fighting against the FMLN guerrillas. The U.S. built the airbase known as Palmerola, near Comayagua, with a 10,000 foot (3,000 m) runway so that C5-A cargo planes could land there, rather than at the public airport in San Pedro Sula. The U.S. also built a training base near Trujillo which primarily trained Contras and the Salvadoran military, and in conjunction with this, developed Puerto Castilla into a modern port. The United States built many airstrips near the Nicaraguan border to help move supplies to the Contra forces fighting the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. Though spared the bloody civil wars wracking its neighbors, the Honduran army quietly waged a campaign against leftists which included extra judicial killings and forced disappearances of political opponents by government-backed death squads, most notably Battalion 316.[4]

[BrentJackson]

I can't see why giving military aid to Hamas is bad but giving military aid to the terrorist organization Contras in Nicaragua is good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduras

Uh, Eki, that was 20 years ago. If the US tried that today heads would roll. The point of backing up the Contras was to stop communists from taking over there. That is a non-issue now. The Iran-Contra affair was an incredible embarassment for Reagan, too.

[Eki]

The point of backing up the Contras was to stop communists from taking over there.
What's it to the US if Nicaraguans want to be communists?

[SOD]

Uh, Eki, that was 20 years ago. If the US tried that today heads would roll. The point of backing up the Contras was to stop communists from taking over there. That is a non-issue now. The Iran-Contra affair was an incredible embarassment for Reagan, too.


are you sure that heads would roll? ollie North is still a hero for all that meddling.

[L5->R5/CR]

What's it to the US if Nicaraguans want to be communists?

I guess you forgot about the whole idiotic episode of history called the Cold War?

The Soviets propped up unsustainable revolutionary governments and brutal dictatorships in the name of the communist ideal and the US the same but for non-communism.


None of this discussion is on point however.

Negroponte was NOT a member of the CIA covert operations. You're just using Iran-Contra to smear the US and attempt to use the hypocrisy card for protesting the assignment of a clandestine operative to a high ranking diplomatic position.

Nice attempt to deflect. I might poke my head back in this thread again at some point but otherwise I am disappointed Eki.

[BDunnell]

I guess you forgot about the whole idiotic episode of history called the Cold War?

The Soviets propped up unsustainable revolutionary governments and brutal dictatorships in the name of the communist ideal and the US the same but for non-communism.

I would add to this the fact that the US only fought Communism where it thought it could win and not cause a nuclear war, hence (in part) its inaction over the Berlin Wall, but — as you say — this is another story.

[SOD]

I guess you forgot about the whole idiotic episode of history called the Cold War?

The Soviets propped up unsustainable revolutionary governments and brutal dictatorships in the name of the communist ideal and the US the same but for non-communism.


None of this discussion is on point however.

Negroponte was NOT a member of the CIA covert operations. You're just using Iran-Contra to smear the US and attempt to use the hypocrisy card for protesting the assignment of a clandestine operative to a high ranking diplomatic position.

Nice attempt to deflect. I might poke my head back in this thread again at some point but otherwise I am disappointed Eki.

The USA news was managed to paint white caps on the contras and black hats on the sandinistas. The US state dept ran the propaganda news managing agency.

Any policy run out of Langly is a "high ranking diplomatic position." . the CIA is not a privately owned organisation that goes out to play wherever it feels like. SOmeone tells them what to do. if that isn't "official policy" then I don't know what is. :rolleyes:

[Camelopard]

Uh, Eki, that was 20 years ago. If the US tried that today heads would roll. The point of backing up the Contras was to stop communists from taking over there. That is a non-issue now. The Iran-Contra affair was an incredible embarassment for Reagan, too.

Now days the us would just outsource their dirty work to companies like halliburton, kpg and blackwater :D .

[leopard]

They can do more to shove on Israel, but as we all know the Israelis have a big, powerful lobby and vote bloc in Congress - and any government doesn't want to run afoul of them. But an act that neutralizes that problem would make iteasier. That could well have been the case when Baruch Goldstein walked into the Temple of the Patriarchs and murdered 29 Palestinians in cold blood. Sooner or later, they'll screw up again - and when they do, then things will change in a hurry.

That's one of reason they have more bargain power in congress that leads into disproportional solution on Palestine and Israel, and then they legitimate any arbitrary abuse on Palestinians.

Those have the powerful lobby in congress actually can use the opportunity of that power for the proper solution and not only for the interest of Israel and at the cost of Palestine.


Which was at the latest in 1967. 40 years is a helluval ong time to hold a grudge, don't ya think? So, time can change possession of land?
It's noticeable that there is a large country and low densely populated country in North America, why don't they want to share small part of the land for the Jews live in? ;)

[BrentJackson]

That's one of reason they have more bargain power in congress that leads into disproportional solution on Palestine and Israel, and then they legitimate any arbitrary abuse on Palestinians.

Those have the powerful lobby in congress actually can use the opportunity of that power for the proper solution and not only for the interest of Israel and at the cost of Palestine.

So, time can change possession of land?
It's noticeable that there is a large country and low densely populated country in North America, why don't they want to share small part of the land for the Jews live in? ;)

The problem as I have pointed out is two-fold. Yes, the Israelis are brutal to the Palestinians, but that goes both ways. The Israelis use helicopter gunships to blow up houses and cars, the Palestinians use rockets and suicide bombers to kill innocent Israelis. It doesn't justify Israel's actions, but if the Arabs wised up and decided to try simple protesting and not trying to kill people, they'd get a lot better results.

I would not have any issue with moving the five million Israeli Jews to Canada - they certainly can make something for themselves, and they have - but I think they might object, don't ya think?

[Eki]

The Israelis use helicopter gunships to blow up houses and cars, the Palestinians use rockets and suicide bombers to kill innocent Israelis.
And Israelis never kill innocent Palestinians and Lebanese? What makes Israelis innocent? If they have moved to Israel from some other country, they knew they would be considered occupiers or intruders and they still moved, I don't consider them totally innocent.

[leopard]

The problem as I have pointed out is two-fold. Yes, the Israelis are brutal to the Palestinians, but that goes both ways. The Israelis use helicopter gunships to blow up houses and cars, the Palestinians use rockets and suicide bombers to kill innocent Israelis. It doesn't justify Israel's actions, but if the Arabs wised up and decided to try simple protesting and not trying to kill people, they'd get a lot better results.
In the event Palestinians have the better option they wouldn't kill any innocents, this is remembrance of the imbalance battle between elephant versus ant where any instruments used by the ant for defending will be meaningless for the powerful elephant. If the Palestinians are sued for simple protesting and stop defending that way, Israelis should stop intruding them though, and try to come out to the most rationale sharecrop of the land.



I would not have any issue with moving the five million Israeli Jews to Canada - they certainly can make something for themselves, and they have - but I think they might object, don't ya think?
Moving them out of the regions sounds as an overstatement to describe condition that they stay in a region doesn't belong to them, and shouldn't at any rate perform any oppression to the land owner.

They might not want to go over there all the five million, could be a million or two, this is just to transfer the base of Zionist, while the remaining can stay wherever in Arab as long as keep the region peace.

However in this modernized transportation system, this idea of moving them to said new region wouldn't be a serious problem, having said elsewhere that transporting thousands barrel of oil from Iraq or Arab wouldn't cost anything. ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

You guys make me laugh. Eki always brings the US into any argument in the middle east when he is losing. Sandinistas? Really Eki, you really must try to get a rational argument for your tripe.

Israel is what it is. Live with it. Jews came from that part of the world 4 to 5 thousand years ago. They were displaced by the Romans and the Ottomans officially but unofficially, Jews have always been there in some number. They have always been willing to share the land and were given their share by the UN. That same UN that all you left loving anti US types hold up as a paragon of how to run the world. So the UN gives both the Palestianians and Jews equal status in this part of the world in 1947, and the Arabs go nuts and try to knock out the Jews. They fail. They tried again in 57. Fail. Then 67, Fail. How about 73? Fail. Hezbollah attacks with rockets from Lebanon. Despite all the bad PR, the result is the same. Jews hold onto their land, Islamic fanatics just end up with dead bodies and a lot of spin going on.

What part of give it up and get a life should the Palestinians get on with? If they were not so damned stubborn, the "Jewish entity" would trade and work with them, but it is the Arab's that have been the constant aggressor and it is the Arab's that have kept this pot simmering because the Arab's have absolutely refused to recognize Israel, calling it the "Jewish entity" or "Zionist Entity". Most of the Arab's thought Hitler had it right too.....and you want to take their side?

Israel does what it does, and sometimes does things that civilized nations shouldn't have to do, but understand, they cannot afford to lose a war, and they are the only ones in this part of the world to build a society that you or I would want to live in. They are preserving civilized behaviour in a world that is trying to kill them, so yes, they will cross the line on occasion. Get over it...

For those of you who try to defend the actions of this Iranian loon in his funding of Hezbollah and his anti-Semitic rants, you either are one, or you are with Israel. The shades of gray you cling to are on a slippery slope to backing genocide and ethnic cleansing. Only in Israel will Eki claim to be ok iwith a little ethnic cleansing if it is the Jew's getting moved out.....

Again, Eki, you never fail to disappoint me, as you and your fellow lefty socialists keep pushing and defending the indefensible. Supporting yet another autocratic regime in its policies.......

There is a difference between democratic nations under attack and the nations that attack them Eki. You refuse to see it because you refuse to see alot of things. Blind stupidity is what I would like to call it, but I suppose that isnt' fair, you are not stupid, just blind to things you wish not to see.....

[leopard]

wake up :bounce: :)

[Eki]

Jews came from that part of the world 4 to 5 thousand years ago.
That's the lamest excuse ever. I doubt that Americans and Australians of British heritage would get their ancestral lands in Britain back even when their ancestors left Britain just 100 to 400 years ago.

[kalasend]

Peter when the American empire fades away this whole ****ing planet will be glowing for years and years!!

Please locate such nation called "The American Empire" on the world map

[Malbec]

Mark in Oshawa, I think you're having difficulty realising there is no 'good' or 'evil' side in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Once you realise that neither Israel nor the Palestinians have any moral superiority over the other you'll find the issue much easier to understand.

As Eki pointed out your claim that the Israelis have superior claim to the land because Jews have always been there in some form or other is the weakest argument I've ever come across and of course fails to acknowledge the fact that the Palestinians have been there too.

They are both as bad as each other. Perhaps I could go as far as saying they deserve each other.

[L5->R5/CR]

Mark in Oshawa, I think you're having difficulty realising there is no 'good' or 'evil' side in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Once you realise that neither Israel nor the Palestinians have any moral superiority over the other you'll find the issue much easier to understand.

As Eki pointed out your claim that the Israelis have superior claim to the land because Jews have always been there in some form or other is the weakest argument I've ever come across and of course fails to acknowledge the fact that the Palestinians have been there too.

They are both as bad as each other. Perhaps I could go as far as saying they deserve each other.



Nobody wins in the conflict.

Once that is an accepted reality there can be peace, but the biggest thing standing in the way of peace is the Palestinian clan power struggles...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark in Oshawa, I think you're having difficulty realising there is no 'good' or 'evil' side in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Once you realise that neither Israel nor the Palestinians have any moral superiority over the other you'll find the issue much easier to understand.

As Eki pointed out your claim that the Israelis have superior claim to the land because Jews have always been there in some form or other is the weakest argument I've ever come across and of course fails to acknowledge the fact that the Palestinians have been there too.

They are both as bad as each other. Perhaps I could go as far as saying they deserve each other.

No there is a RIGHT or a WRONG side to this. One side has been trying to wipe the other side out for the last 60 years. Sorry if you don't like that reality.

Also point out the Jews/Israeli's are quite willing to share, and the Palestinians who didn't leave in 47 live quite well as citizens of Israel, a far more genial existence than the ones that left and now are pissed at the reality. The Arab world sold the Palestinians a bill of goods in 1947. They told them that if they joined in the fight, the Jew's would be wiped out. A fantasy as it turned out.

Are the Israeli's saints? No...they sometimes fight a dirty war at times, but remember what I said. They cant afford to lose ONCE, and they are fighting people who have used every dirty trick in the book. Using women as human bombs, using children, attacking civilians in every way imagineable......so if the Israeli's stray from the norms of civilized warfare (an oxymoron if there ever was one) it is somewhat regrettable but understandable. The whole world holds them to account for it and condemns them for it seems too.

You moral equivalency people just don't get it. Israel isn't going away, they are NOT the bad guys here, and are very willing to share and live with their neighbours, but they wont do it from a position of subservience, or being forced into the sea as just about every Arab hard head seems to think is right. They will not live in fear and they will not give up their democracy.

I know this is tough for a few of you to understand, but get it into your heads that Israel is the only nation in that part of the world that respects most of the values we hold dear. Free speech, democratic freedoms and a liberal democractic lifestyle. They do this while under fire and under attack at any moment from a people that have persisted in trying to go to war with them by any means neccessary. In spite of all of this, they are always willing to talk about peace, but it has to be legitimate, not just going through the motions while re arming. The Palestinians, the pawns in this game have been shunted aside by the Arab nations while being told they have support of all the Moslem world. This is false, for if all the money that has been pumped into the Gaza and West Bank was used for economic development and legitmate needs, rather than arms and funding terror groups, the Palestinians would be partners with Israel in building a truly unique and wonderful economy. Instead, they are told by their arab neighbours to keep up the fight. Meanwhile, the US, UN and other Western nations have put money into the pockets of Arafat and his successors while the bombings and terror continues. When Hamas came along, the cash was shut off. The fact the Israeli's put up a wall is because they got tired of pulling dead bodies of innocent Jews off the streets from human bombs. Arafat was supposed to stop that remember? Oh yes...and the Israeli's are the bad ones?

At some point, do you believe some of this drivel some of you spout or do you honestly just have an anti-Semitic view of this part of the world.

Is Israel innocent? No.....but please spare me the crap about how they are equally at fault for the endless state of terror and warfare in this part of the world. If Israel chose to, they would own a lot more realestate out there than they do now.....and I would condemn them for it. No...they are actually pretty restrained for all the crap they have dumped on them....

[Eki]

No there is a RIGHT or a WRONG side to this. One side has been trying to wipe the other side out for the last 60 years. Sorry if you don't like that reality.


No, both sides are trying to wipe each other out. The only difference is that one side is saying it out loud without any success and one side is successfully doing it without saying it out loud.

[Malbec]

Mark, please stop your preaching style posting because its pretty clear that you really don't know enough about the subject.

You're right, Israel shares a lot with Europe and the US, it is democratic and protects free speech.

It has also practiced a campaign of extra-judicial killings, widely uses torture and refuses to censure its soldiers for killings of unarmed civilians including Western journalists and children. I like to think that those are not shared values but clearly you may be inclined to differ. Israel has also used those tactics from before the Palestinians started suicide attacks. Get this into your head Mark, both sides have been doing inhuman things to each other from the very beginning.

I also suggest you do some research into Irgun and the tactics they used to drive Palestinians out of Palestine when the British withdrew. Again you may feel that massacring villagers and raping women to scare the population away is a value you share kinship with but I'm afraid I don't.

None of this puts Israel below the Palestinians on a moral level. I'm not going to argue whether letting your soldiers shoot children is better or worse than ordering a suicide bomber to detonate themselves on a bus. I suggest to you that there is too little difference between the two to matter.

Yes I believe Israel has the right to exist and to defend itself where necessary but in real terms, possessing both nuclear weapons and the best conventional armed forces in the Middle East facing enemies that have fallen behind in the arms race it is a fallacy to suggest that Israel's actual existence is under threat.

If you are willing to state that suggesting that neither Israel nor the Palestinians are in a position to claim moral superiority is being anti-semetic then clearly there isn't much point in continuing this 'debate'.

[BrentJackson]

And Israelis never kill innocent Palestinians and Lebanese? What makes Israelis innocent? If they have moved to Israel from some other country, they knew they would be considered occupiers or intruders and they still moved, I don't consider them totally innocent.

I didn't say they were innocent Eki. They aren't. But the Israelis (well, most of them anyways) don't consider all Palestinians targets. Some Palestinians, the terrorist kind, want to kill Israel and every single Jewish person in it.

As Mark points out, they could own a helluva lot more land now than they do, if they wanted it - heck, they gave back the entire Sinai peninsula to Egypt in 1979, and I don't doubt if Syria came looking for a peace deal they'd probably get a bunch of the Golan Heights back too. The Terrorists are the bad guys, and Israel has simply had it up to here with their crap. Some of the more Orthodox Israelis are just plain evil - witness Baruch Goldstein and the Cave of the Patriarchs - but Israel now has no problems with Arab citizens, and while their actions have been downright ugly at times this has all been in response to the Arabs and their attacks.

[Eki]

but Israel now has no problems with Arab citizens, and while their actions have been downright ugly at times this has all been in response to the Arabs and their attacks.
I'm sure a lot of the Arab attacks have been in response to the Israeli attacks.

[BrentJackson]

I'm sure a lot of the Arab attacks have been in response to the Israeli attacks.

True, but one side has to call time out, don't they? The Israelis call time out and more of their people die. The Israelis are more than willing to put an end to the violence and create a Palestinian state. Now, where is the response form the Arabs?

[Eki]

True, but one side has to call time out, don't they? The Israelis call time out and more of their people die. The Israelis are more than willing to put an end to the violence and create a Palestinian state. Now, where is the response form the Arabs?
The Israelis have more powerful weapons, so it's usually more Arabs who die than Israelis. Israel could afford to limit the use force for some time, try to negotiate and see if things get better.

[BrentJackson]

The Israelis have more powerful weapons, so it's usually more Arabs who die than Israelis. Israel could afford to limit the use force for some time, try to negotiate and see if things get better.

Which they are doing, which you conveniently forget about. ;)

And I might also point out that the Israelis don't indiscriminately kill any Arab they can see. That Hezbollah and Hamas do all the time.

They could stand back a bit, but as far as I am concerned I don't really care how many Hamas militants they kill.

[Eki]

They could stand back a bit, but as far as I am concerned I don't really care how many Hamas militants they kill.
They probably kill few civilians with each Hamas militant. Grenades and missiles don't differentiate between militants and civilians.

[L5->R5/CR]

They probably kill few civilians with each Hamas militant. Grenades and missiles don't differentiate between militants and civilians.


Neither do car bombs and rocket attacks....

Oh wait, Hezbollah and Hamas attack civilians indiscriminately while at least the Israeli's try to focus on militants...

[Eki]

Neither do car bombs and rocket attacks....

Oh wait, Hezbollah and Hamas attack civilians indiscriminately while at least the Israeli's try to focus on militants...
Doesn't the end result mean anything? An ant can try to kill an elephant but don't do much actual damage, while the elephant can stomp the ant dead just by accident. Most of the Hamas and Hezbollah rockets have been so poorly guided that they have fallen on uninhabited areas. Israeli precision guided missiles usually hit the intended building or vehicle but don't know who's inside. Often inside are civilians or even UN military observers, like recently in Lebanon.