Mosley urges teams to further cut costs

[spiltmilk]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62692

Mosley urges teams to further cut costs

By Jonathan Noble Monday, September 24th 2007, 20:10 GMT
http://www.autosport.com/images/upload/1152877043.jpgFIA president Max Mosley has renewed his calls for urgent cost-cutting measures in Formula One, autosport.com has learned, telling the teams they are still wasting millions of pounds each year on technical matters.
In a letter sent to team principals last week, Mosley said it made 'no sense' for so much of the sport's finances to be spent on improving cars when it added nothing to the sport's spectacle.
His frustrations have been fuelled by the fact that cost-cutting measures introduced by the FIA - including parc ferme restrictions and long-life engines - have done little to dissuade teams from spending money.
In the letter, Mosley claims that it was futile for so much of the current discussions between team principals to revolve around the framing of a new Concorde Agreement to give more money to the teams, if they were then going to waste any gains on yet more technology.
"Formula One's vast profits are currently being wasted on pointless exercises for the private entertainment of the teams' engineers," said Mosley in a document that was attached to the letter.
"As a result, several independent teams are losing money when they should be making a profit, while car manufacturers are forced to spend excessively. This is the problem which needs to be addressed.
"If it did not waste money on pointless, hidden and duplicated technology, Formula One would be an immensely profitable business. Each department would be a valuable franchise. Instead it is living on subsidies from the car industry and hand-outs from friendly billionaires.
"Until the basic problem of costs has been resolved, time should not be wasted discussing how the FOM money is to be distributed. It is a secondary matter. The same applies to debating the level of technical co-operation allowed between teams."
Mosley's letter came after he attended the team principals' meeting at the Belgian Grand Prix, where discussions were dominated by the Concorde Agreement and talk about new technologies, like the standard ECU and energy recovery systems.
And while some teams are pushing for a delay in the introduction of Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems (KERS) until 2011, Mosley thinks that is probably one of the only technologies that should be left free for team development.
"The technical contest has become enormously expensive," he said. "However, most of its elements are concealed from the public. Because they are concealed, even secret, these elements add nothing to the entertainment.
"Therefore the money spent on them is wasted, all the more so because work on these elements is duplicated in each of the 12 departments (the teams).
"It makes absolutely no sense to spend large sums on items which do not add to the entertainment, indeed often detract from it. It makes even less sense for each of 12 departments to carry out the same unnecessary work.
"No rational person would run a business in which 12 departments duplicate each other's research work, still less if that work provides very little of the entertainment which underpins the business.
"Therefore all items on the cars which are not known, visible and understood by the public should be standardised and manufactured at minimal cost.
"The technical contest should be limited to items which are visible, understood and potentially useful - eg KERS. (emphasis in the original)
"This would produce a huge reduction in costs without affecting the entertainment. Indeed the cars would be more equal, giving closer racing and better entertainment."

[spiltmilk]

Again this guy is way off touch to reality. Formula 1 is sopposed to be the pinnacle of racing technology and he wants only the visible technology of the car to be used. Is he off his rockers. This old man needs to go. He's getting mad about 12 teams with each their own engineering department. If he wants alll the teams to have 1 shared engineering department then this wouldnt be Formula 1 it would champcar or formual renault this guy is silly
He forgets that formula 1 is a competition or a mini war where the concepts of sun tzu applies knowing what ur enemy/competition is doing. penalizing a team like Mclaren for doing there job of being on top every aspect of winning should not be penalize barring acts of sabotage of course. I just cant stand this guy. the more i hear about him the more i get irratated by his actions.

[ShiftingGears]

F1 should never serve solely for the purpose of being the test bed of road cars. First and foremost, ideally, it should be a racing series.

If Max wants teams to cut costs, well, maybe he should fine ALL teams $100million ;)

[wmcot]

Every time MM wants to reduce costs, it results in more R&D money being spent to meet the new guidelines! When has MM ever saved money for the teams?

[Dave B]

The simple fact is if a team saves money in one area (say engines) then it will spend it in another (perhaps simulation or aero). Short of capping their budgets, which would be near enough impossible, Max is fighting a losing battle on this one. It's F1 for goodness' sake, supposedly the pinnacle of motorsport!

[Mark]

Quite so, How much have McLaren spent on their simulator? I'll bet it's not just a copy of Grand Prix 3 running on there.

[Garry Walker]

shut up max, soon F1 will be slower than GP2 the way you are wanting it.

[ioan]

Money money money!



"Therefore all items on the cars which are not known, visible and understood by the public should be standardised and manufactured at minimal cost.
"The technical contest should be limited to items which are visible, understood and potentially useful - eg KERS.


It's all about the viewers ( those many millions that stare to their TV sets without understanding anything about the technologies involved ), viewers that only care about the drivers and as long as the cars are fast they don't care if there is high level engineering involved or not.

Viewers that make for high viewing rates that in turn make for huge amounts of money from the TV companies and the sponsors.

The same viewers that were the decisional factor in not throwing the McLaren drivers out of this years championship even if the team thrown out.

This is turning into a colossal joke for the sake of some peoples pockets! :down:

As some said it several times impose a maximum volume of fuel (that's all that matters for me in todays automotive world, low consumption) and let them race with 4,6,8.... wheelers, small turbo engines or huge atmospheric ones, bring back ground efects and than the one that get's to the line first wins the race.

[veeten]

ioan, I take it that you meant when I posted this in the "Theissen against customer cars in F1" thread...

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/dead.gif Formula 1 was ruined long ago... - 3rd Jan 07, 11:29



sorry, but it's the truth.

From reading the responses, both here on this thread & forum and in others, it has come to me that a great many are products of the present generation, that of which are used to what they see as Formula 1 of the last 15-20 years. Unfortunately, what they are actually witnessing is the triumph of marketing over motorsport, which didn't happen overnight, but over time.

Remember when Formula 1 trully exuded the ideal of innovation & creative thinking?... that was back when the teams & manufacturers built original designs in both chassis & engines, such as the Ferrari 312 Boxer engine, or Renault-Gordini Turbo V6, BMW Turbo I-4(which was based on their production engine), Matra & Alfa Romeo V12, Ford-Cosworth DFV V8... Lotus 72 & 78, Ferrari T312, McLaren M23, Brabbham BT-series, Tyrrell P3/4 & later the P34 6-Wheeler...

These and many ideas, that sprung from the fertile minds of those we held in the highest esteem all the way to the mid-80's, were replaced by the cold, repetitive logic of fluid dynamics & wind tunnels, producing chassis that if one removed all paint & advertising marks, as well as driver numbers, and run them on track at the same time, one would have a devil of a time trying to distinguish one from another. Engines that have been legislated into a one size used by all specification, where the only way to know which is which is in how much throttle the driver is using.

The recent slate of rules that been a classic example of what has happened over the past 20+ years; true creative thought has been drownned out, replaced by incremmental mediocrity, and buttressed by hype to give it justification for fleecing the world public.

I often find it comical when people do comparisons between F1 & NASCAR in recent times, as both are essentially doing the same thing: equalization by fiat as a means of generating revenue. Thank you, Bernie & Max.
_________________________________________________

meant what I said then, and still Max proves it true with every attempt at 'cost cutting' he proscribes.

Now, the FIA wants more from the governments in paying for the 'privilege' of having a race. My God, when does the soaking end?! :eek:

[Easy Drifter]

As long as there is money F1 will find a way to spend it. Look at the "hospitality" trucks/buildings at the European tracks. Who really needs 2 storey setups for a 3 day event. They must have as many transporters, or more, for these setups as they do for the cars!
I know it is a drop in the bucket compared to what they spend but it is an example of the excess.

[Sleeper]

Max should really learn to shut his mouth, rubbish seems to come flying out of it everytime he opens that gob of his.

[Flat.tyres]

Max should really learn to shut his mouth, rubbish seems to come flying out of it everytime he opens that gob of his.

I wonder if it's time for Max to step down at the end of the year.

Perhaps we could have a poll.

Q. Is it time for Max to resign at the end of the season. Y/N

I'll PM a Mod

[PETE ARON]

I agree with Max. A great deal of F1 expense goes to items that make absolutely no difference to the racing...only to gain a few thousands of a second...maybe. It's not as though the technology is in any way translatable to street cars. Running a windtunnel 24 hours a day to come up with a new aero flip is insane. The trick is in how to limit the expense without limiting design latitude. The current rules are so tight that no team makes big leaps anymore.....they just employ 1000 people to find a tenth of a second.

Just off the top, here are two areas I'd like to see change.

1. Get rid of all aero attachments....all the flips, tabs, vains, fins, etc. Spec standard, inefficient front and rear wings. Their main function is to provide advertising space. The emphasis should be on body shape and mechanical grip.

2. Specify 4 cylinder engines with no displacement limit. Allow teams to decide the best size and power characteristics. Smaller, high revers vs. Larger torque makers. At least the cars might sound a little different, unlike the current almost spec engines.

[hmmm - donuts]

Max might be right that the majority of technology is invisible to the spectator. However he's missing the point (as usual) - the point of the technology (visible or not) is to enable the cars go faster, and hopefully score points. When the rewards for winning, or even scoring, are so high, then the teams will spend what it takes. Remember that Formula 1 is a meritocracy - the more you win the more money you make - the more money you make the more you win. If the rules limit the technology in one area then the money will simply be spent elsewhere. Personlly, like many others on the forum, I'd prefer there to be less restrictions on things such as engine configuration - let's have V8s, V16s, Five cylinder 3 strokes, whatever.

As a matter of interest, does anybody know if longer life engines, and the freeze on engine has actually saved the teams money? I would suspect not.

Regards

[Malbec]

For someone who is obviously quite intelligent Max is clearly having difficulty grasping a simple concept.

F1 is a business. He can't control budgets. If he stops spending in one area teams will spend it in another. If he stopped all aero, tyre and mechanical development the teams would simply spend $400 million a year researching the fastest paintscheme or making their wheelnuts lighter or something.

If he tightens the screws too much the manufacturers can simply shift their F1 funding away to their other subsiduaries. Ferrari isn't allowed to spend $400 million on R/D? Thats fine, get FIAT to do it and cook the books instead.

Thats as stupid as introducing a new law to limit IT R and D to cut Microsoft's turnover.

Max isn't that stupid so the question is, whats he REALLY after?

[BDunnell]

I am always amused (and saddened) when people who are clearly not socialists start going on about how top-class sport is 'too much about money and not enough about the sport', given that many people who moan in this way otherwise subscribe to the principles that lay behind top-class sport becoming big business. Mosley falls into this category.

[spiltmilk]

I wonder if it's time for Max to step down at the end of the year.

Perhaps we could have a poll.

Q. Is it time for Max to resign at the end of the season. Y/N

I'll PM a Mod

tHAT WOULD BE A GREAT POLL BUT I think his presidency is on a 4 year term basis and he's been qouted saying he want jean todt to succeed him. Both Max mosley and Jean Todt are biased against Mclaren. In all honesty I think Ron Denis control freak or not is a a icon to F1. What can I say his team sets the the bar of what a team can be. Ferrari on the other hand is unattainable since most of the other teams dont have a luxury/race car manufactoring to back them up.

[spiltmilk]

I read some stuff about max on wikipedia
At the age of 11 weeks his Mother was arrested for being a Nazi sympathizer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley

He's also dissin' jackie stewart for having common sense. wow dads a fascist and his mom a nazi sympathizer. How did he get elected FIA with that pedigree?

Hes been known to his Ferrari Bias and rule changing to aid their victoryquote from parliment about Mad Max
Conservative MP to Labor, "WHAT NEXT??"

[jso1985]

argh... Mosley forgot to take his meds today :s

I know F1 needs to cut its costs, but Mosley's claims are just ridicoulous, because most of the public doens't know what a camber is, it has to be manufactured in cheap ways? :s c'mon!

but on the other side, why we keep bashing him because of what his parents did? my mother was arrested in 1973 for being part of the Bolivian Socialist Party, and I'd be extremly p***ed off if someone discredit anything I say just because something my mother did...

[ShiftingGears]

Mosley just doesn't get it. Money is there, so teams will spend it. Enforced rule changes (such as changes to 8 cylinders) in search of cost-cutting cost more to the teams than continuity does through R&D.

At this rate I'd be joyed to have Jean Todt as the next FIA president as he at least seems to be in touch with F1.

F1 is not a politically correct sport and Mosley shouldn't try and kid people that it is. It is a drive that is ultimately costing teams more.

[Ranger]

Mosley just doesn't get it. Money is there, so teams will spend it. Enforced rule changes (such as changes to 8 cylinders) in search of cost-cutting cost more to the teams than continuity does through R&D.

At this rate I'd be joyed to have Jean Todt as the next FIA president as he at least seems to be in touch with F1.

F1 is not a politically correct sport and Mosley shouldn't try and kid people that it is. It is a drive that is ultimately costing teams more.

[wmcot]

Anybody out there talented and knowledgeable enough to post just how much MORE money Max's last cost-cutting cost the teams?

[V12]

Max has spouted plenty of rubbish in his time - but I have never been so.... well, offended, as I have been by his latest rant.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62692



"If it did not waste money on pointless, hidden and duplicated technology, Formula One would be an immensely profitable business. Each department would be a valuable franchise. Instead it is living on subsidies from the car industry and hand-outs from friendly billionaires.

.......

"The technical contest has become enormously expensive," he said. "However, most of its elements are concealed from the public. Because they are concealed, even secret, these elements add nothing to the entertainment.

"Therefore the money spent on them is wasted, all the more so because work on these elements is duplicated in each of the 12 departments (the teams).

"It makes absolutely no sense to spend large sums on items which do not add to the entertainment, indeed often detract from it. It makes even less sense for each of 12 departments to carry out the same unnecessary work.

"No rational person would run a business in which 12 departments duplicate each other's research work, still less if that work provides very little of the entertainment which underpins the business.


He describes the teams as 12 "departments" of a single business (F1) - what planet is he on? The teams are all separate entities IN COMPETITION WITH EACH OTHER. F1 is NOT (or shouldn't be!) an entertainment business, it's a sport that may, or may not, happen to be entertaining to certain people at certain times.

Further up he refers to the teams as "franchises" - hell I might as well pack up and find a proper sport to watch if that's his attitude. Yes his crackpot ideas may make for a profitable show, business, franchise, whatever - but it will not be the sport I fell in love with and have religiously followed for two-thirds of my life (I'm 24) - and I would have to consider switching off completely.


EDIT: what disappoints me even more is...at the end of the day this is not some upstart from the business world who has bought or negotiated his way into Max's position - this is a former club racer and the co-founder of one of the most prominent builders of customer F1/2/3 cars during the sport's open entry list heyday - he really should know better.

[veeten]

always remember, this is what happens when you have, essentially, a lawyer in charge of any sport or sporting organisation.

Less money should be spent by the teams on what is termed as 'pointless, hidden and duplicated technology'... sure, Max, so that cash can be re-routed to the FIA & Bernie Co. (FOM), and then lost within the byzantine maze of 'pointless, duplicated and hidden' internal departments & programs?

It's funny that, in comparison of constant currency, the teams had more returns in technological advance on investment late 60's to mid 80's than what's been happening during the present time, and that comes back to the framework of the technical regs.

Equivalency ratios gave manufacturers and engineers freedom to design, create, and innovate practically every aspect of the car. But, thanks to the 'forward thinking' of Mosely & Co.(over the last 20+ years, no less), we have the very exact problems that he rails on about; repetitive design & engineering leading to duplicated parts by every team, one-area development using all of the teams' R & D resources, etc.

I believe, in some ways, that Max has fallen so in love with the simplicity of NASCAR that he believes he can adapt similar aspects of that series into F1. This will prove disasterous, as you may return with something that looks closer to Champ Car or the IRL than the 'pinnacle of motorsport', even if he later tries to adopt a "Chase for the Championship'-style run up for the last few races on the calendar.

If you want to save this sport, then take the obvious choice; get this man out of office ... NOW!!!!!

[gjalie]

set a max for the budget! but let development free for innovation.

so set a max for example 120mln but they can do with it what they like (engine 6,8,10,12 cyl or turbo, wings and chassis free choice)

[ioan]

always remember, this is what happens when you have, essentially, a lawyer in charge of any sport or sporting organisation.[/B]

It seems he even owned a F1 team some time ago! :rolleyes:

What I hate about the ideas that he is pushing forward is that those are very much manufacturer centered.

If the manufacturers want a series where to develop technologies for road cars than they should leave F1 and concentrate on DTM, BTCC and others touring car championships.
Most of the motorsport fans would be able this way to draw a parallel between their racing and street cars, something that is difficult to do with F1.

I believe that Max and the TWG of the FIA know as well as we do what would easily improve F1 for the show, but that isn't in the interest of a manufacturers series that F1 has become.

Going for one tire supplier was a step in the right direction. Going back to slicks will be another good move.
Reducing testing during the season while increasing Friday sessions length was another good move, and they should go all the way and make it a full Friday while banning testing during the season completely.

Ban all the aero devices but the front and rear wings (these should also consist of only one element) and bring back ground effects to increase overtaking.

Rev limiting the engines was also a cost cutting measure, at least for McLaren! ;)

[osg]

I agree with Max. A great deal of F1 expense goes to items that make absolutely no difference to the racing...only to gain a few thousands of a second...maybe. It's not as though the technology is in any way translatable to street cars. Running a windtunnel 24 hours a day to come up with a new aero flip is insane. The trick is in how to limit the expense without limiting design latitude. The current rules are so tight that no team makes big leaps anymore.....they just employ 1000 people to find a tenth of a second.

Just off the top, here are two areas I'd like to see change.

1. Get rid of all aero attachments....all the flips, tabs, vains, fins, etc. Spec standard, inefficient front and rear wings. Their main function is to provide advertising space. The emphasis should be on body shape and mechanical grip.

2. Specify 4 cylinder engines with no displacement limit. Allow teams to decide the best size and power characteristics. Smaller, high revers vs. Larger torque makers. At least the cars might sound a little different, unlike the current almost spec engines.

ppffffftttt A1GP anyone???

No thanks. Time for Max to be put in a coffin before he destroys the pinnacle of motorsport.

[wmcot]

It seems he even owned a F1 team some time ago! :rolleyes:

What I hate about the ideas that he is pushing forward is that those are very much manufacturer centered.

If the manufacturers want a series where to develop technologies for road cars than they should leave F1 and concentrate on DTM, BTCC and others touring car championships.
Most of the motorsport fans would be able this way to draw a parallel between their racing and street cars, something that is difficult to do with F1.

I believe that Max and the TWG of the FIA know as well as we do what would easily improve F1 for the show, but that isn't in the interest of a manufacturers series that F1 has become.

Going for one tire supplier was a step in the right direction. Going back to slicks will be another good move.
Reducing testing during the season while increasing Friday sessions length was another good move, and they should go all the way and make it a full Friday while banning testing during the season completely.

Ban all the aero devices but the front and rear wings (these should also consist of only one element) and bring back ground effects to increase overtaking.

Rev limiting the engines was also a cost cutting measure, at least for McLaren! ;)

I agree with most of what you have said. I've always wanted more freedom in F1. What was wrong with the days when you would have a flat twelve (boxer), V8s, and turbo 4 cylinder engines all on the track at one time. Set a horsepower to weight ratio for the cars or just a minimum weight and maximum horsepower. Let the designers do what they do best - innovation.

Banning aero would be tough, because the entire structure of the car is an aero device. If you mean eliminating winglets, flips, airflow shaping wings, barge boards and the like, I'm all for that!

[ioan]

If you mean eliminating winglets, flips, airflow shaping wings, barge boards and the like, I'm all for that!

That's what I was thinking about! :)

[ShiftingGears]

The engine freeze was one of the dumbest ideas that Max implemented. If they restrict the windows for innovation open to a designer, the least they could do is make sure it makes the racing better.

[jens]

The engine freeze was one of the dumbest ideas that Max implemented. If they restrict the windows for innovation open to a designer, the least they could do is make sure it makes the racing better.

Absolutely. Also I think that the single tyre supplier rule has reduced the excitement (teams' forms don't alter so much from race-to-race due to tyre performance). But with reduced engine development and tyre tests teams' budgets are still about the same... Excitement has reduced, but costs haven't. Where's the result FIA has been aiming for?