Should Massa back up Raikkonen's bid for WDC?

[Ranger]

Poll please.

There are 3 races left in the 2007 season. Raikkonen is 13 points behind points leader Hamilton. Massa is 20 points behind.

I can't help but think that with only 30 points on offer, Massa has already got his work cut out for him, whereas Raikkonen has at least a half-decent chance of the title following the Ferrari 1-2 at Spa. Another 3 of those results will see him secure the title (which is still unlikely). More unlikely, however, is Massa's quest for the title, as he will need some extremely untimely errors from the McLaren team to come close, let alone take it.

Team orders at Ferrari have thankfully not been implemented this year, but for their sake I think now is the time to do so. They'll save themselves a 1986 Williams-esque shortfall.

Your opinions please.

[nigelred5]

LET THEM FIGHT EVENLY TO THE END!!! It's been quite refreshing to actually have a 4 way battle for the championship all season. This whole McLaren/Ferrari espionage saga has destroyed one of the best F1 seasons in recent memory, and I'm a Ferrari Fan.

[Hawkmoon]

LET THEM FIGHT EVENLY TO THE END!!! It's been quite refreshing to actually have a 4 way battle for the championship all season. This whole McLaren/Ferrari espionage saga has destroyed one of the best F1 seasons in recent memory, and I'm a Ferrari Fan.

Isn't that a little bit altruistically short-sighted? Ferrari want the WDC just as much as Kimi and Massa do and they're not going to get it by letting Massa take points away from Kimi. Massa's Italian DNF effectively ended his title bid and he has pretty much said so himself.

Ferrari need to back Kimi with everything they have if they're to nick the title from under McLaren's nose. That doesn't mean that Kimi is any better than Massa. It's just the way the cards have fallen this year.

[truefan72]

hard to say,

Kimi's chances are mathematical, but not realistic

[Tazio]

Isn't that a little bit altruistically short-sighted? Ferrari want the WDC just as much as Kimi and Massa do and they're not going to get it by letting Massa take points away from Kimi. Massa's Italian DNF effectively ended his title bid and he has pretty much said so himself.

Ferrari need to back Kimi with everything they have if they're to nick the title from under McLaren's nose. That doesn't mean that Kimi is any better than Massa. It's just the way the cards have fallen this year.
I agree!
In the less than likely chance that Ferrari get a couple more front row lockouts. They better get pretty creative if Massa takes the lead deep into the race. Otherwise Ioan is going to have to brief me on how the change of position was clean racing, and how it doesn't degrade an already perverted championship season.

[leopard]

hard to say,

Kimi's chances are mathematical, but not realistic
Kimi is better focusing on next year plan and strategy to perform better challenging the title than this year, if this is considered as learning year at Ferrari. Try at best for the rest races of this season and as far as possible Massa in the scheme of supporting this little opportunity considering his point is left.

If Kimi fails again, at least not to give mcLaren one and two top performers, next year I don't know what to say :D

[janneppi]

Poll added.

Despite what Massa and Todt have said after the spa that there are no orders yet, come race day in Japan and the Ferrari's are equal speed or faster than McLaren's, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Kimi get's the better strategy for the race than Massa.

With three races left Massa can't get ahead Kimi in points if they finish Massa first and Kimi second the remaining races, that just might make the difference for Todt not to allow Massa to get ahead Kimi if there isn't a possibility for Massa to get more than two points more than Kimi. :)

[leopard]

Can I ask one thing, is this you the first voter? :)

[janneppi]

No, I haven't voted yet. ;)

[leopard]

ok, my vote added, you next :)

[osg]

Is the pope catholic??? Of course he should. If felipe drives to his ability, he can keep the Macca's at bay for the final 3 races....... i would vote for Kimi to do the same thing if the situation was reversed, even though i'm not that keen on Massa.

[leopard]

how could a driver get support from someone he has to support?

[Tomi]

What comes around goes around, i think it would be shortsighted of Massa if he is not willing to help, someday he might be in the same position Kimi is today, even i dont seriously belive he ever will.

[leopard]

He will do that, sincerely or not, because he has ever scored point higher than Kimi. I think result of Spa has reflected this.

[pino]

Can I ask one thing, is this you the first voter? :)

Nope it was me :p :

[Daniel]

Is the pope catholic??? Of course he should. If felipe drives to his ability, he can keep the Macca's at bay for the final 3 races....... i would vote for Kimi to do the same thing if the situation was reversed, even though i'm not that keen on Massa.
I believe there's a new version of that saying. "Is the pope scary looking?" because he does look evil :mark:

[leopard]

Nope it was me :p :
It is surprise to see some support for drivers other than Trulli, progress for Pino :) :p :

[leopard]

I believe there's a new version of that saying. "Is the pope scary looking?" because he does look evil :mark:
Is the catholic scary looking? :\ :)

[ArrowsFA1]

I'd prefer all four drivers be free to fight for the title without any instructions, but at this stage of the season, if Ferrari are going to secure the WDC, they need to support the driver with the best chance, and that's Kimi. His cause will certainly be helped because, even if instructed, it's hard to see the two McLaren drivers working together now.

[SGWilko]

Team 'orders' are illegal are they not. I would expect the FIA to come down hard on Ferrari hard if they break any form of sporting code.

But, they will deem they don't have enough proof if team orders are employed.

But if McLaren do the same with FA/LH, they'll get the book thrown at them - of course.

All is fair in love and the FIA......

[Ranger]

Team 'orders' are illegal are they not. I would expect the FIA to come down hard on Ferrari hard if they break any form of sporting code.


You can't police team orders. Did Ferrari get penalised in Japan last year when Massa eased off to allow Schumi past on lap 3?? Of course not.

Unless it is an Austria 2002-esque disgrace caused by team orders, the breaking of that rule simply can't be policed. Hence if either team enforces team orders, they shouldn't be punished.

[Hondo]

Realistically, it's time for Massa to support Kimi. I think he knows that and will do that without having to be told. If Ferrari can get the Drivers Championship through Kimi winning it outright, that should remove any "taint" from either of the championships. Would Ferrari be violating the team order rule? Not really, but who cares? The FIA requires each team to field and manage two cars, essentially 2 employees out in company vehicles and I see no reason why any company should be restricted in the manner in which they assign tasks and responsibilities to their employees. The whole team orders fiasco is the direct by product of the FIA requiring teams. Typically stupid.

As for those who place wagers on the races, anybody dumb enough to not realize that Ferrari is going to move Kimi past Massa in these last races, deserves to lose their money.

[555-04Q2]

Poll please.

There are 3 races left in the 2007 season. Raikkonen is 13 points behind points leader Hamilton. Massa is 20 points behind.

I can't help but think that with only 30 points on offer, Massa has already got his work cut out for him, whereas Raikkonen has at least a half-decent chance of the title following the Ferrari 1-2 at Spa. Another 3 of those results will see him secure the title (which is still unlikely). More unlikely, however, is Massa's quest for the title, as he will need some extremely untimely errors from the McLaren team to come close, let alone take it.

Team orders at Ferrari have thankfully not been implemented this year, but for their sake I think now is the time to do so. They'll save themselves a 1986 Williams-esque shortfall.

Your opinions please.

Yeah, looks like Massa is going to have to provide a support role to the end of the season. But, unless the two Mclarens take each other out, LH or FA have this WDC sown up.

[F1boat]

Aha... the title is not so far away... Lewis and Fred might do something stupid...

[Hondo]

You can bet Lewis won't move over the next time. Alonso better stay on his toes.

[ShiftingGears]

It does seem like one of those championships where you feel like it's going to end with a desperate lunge :p :

I can hardly wait! :D

[Robinho]

as stated a repeat performance of Belgium top 4 will see Kimi take the title, and to be honest that seems his and Ferraris best hope, no reason for the McLarens to start blowing up or faling off now so i'd expect Kimi to be given the chance to go for the title and Massa to back him up, it could so easily have been the other way round the way this season has gone. if they start fighting ir pushing each other and one McLaren slips into 2nd or 1st in just one race the chances are that teh tiotle slips away from them, a team effort is required in favour of Kimi if they want the drivers title

[markabilly]

Team orders???

What if Kimi offers an extra $2,600 to the mechanics each time he beats Massa to the wire?

That is NOT team orders....just ask freddie....

[rabf1]

If there are opportunities for Massa to really help Kimi he should do that, but short of taking both Alonso and Hamilton out it seems unlikely that there is anything Massa can really do to help. If Alonso and Hamilton are running 1-2, having Massa move over to let Kimi finish third isn't going to accomplish anything. Kimi needs some DNF's from McLaren.

[OmarF1]

Well this is a hard one for Felipe, there are many points of view to this,

1. if he helps Räikkönen, knowing Ferrari's policy of work by the times of the Schumster, he's risking his reputation for years to come to become Barrichello 2.0, he's brazilian and from Sao Paulo too, at least he doesn't cry at the podium when he wins.

2. He helps Kimi and all the latter becomes champ, he could be the ultimate team player and next year all favours will be returned to him by Jean.

3. He ignores Ferrari policy and win all the races Kimi in second, but Hamilton or Alonso very strong and ultimately winnig either of them (Alonso or Lewis) the champ, he could be the selfish little boy and pay the consecuenses next year as a lapdog.

I don't know, if the help by Massa becomes necessary I just hope this could be made in an honorable way and not by taking drivers off the race of letting Kimi pass at the last lap, that evil toad it is capable of doing it.

[ioan]

I really don't know.

There is so much difference between the Felipe & Kimi situation, compared with the Michael & Rubens situation.

Michael was always that much better than Rubens, while this season it's a mechanical failure that ultimately made the difference between Kimi and Felipe.

Logically, if Ferrari as a team want the WDC, than I think Felipe, being the team player he is, will help Kimi.

The only way to have a clean championship winner this season is if one of the Ferrari drivers takes it.

[DonJippo]

No, if he makes it, it should be by his own doing.

[Garry Walker]

Yes. Massa should now become the lapdog so to say and drive with the aim of helping Kimi to win only. Shame, but that is the case now and he needs to accept the reality. It could go the other next year.

[ioan]

Having thought a bit about it I think he should chose himself what he wants to do. Anything imposed by the team might lead to a McLarenesque atmosphere between the two drivers, and that would hurt the team over a longer distance.

[Hondo]

The attitude at McLaren is due to Alonso's ego, not any team orders. I think Massa is willing to support the big picture, especially if he is assurred at another fair shot at it next year.

I think Alonso and Hamilton are going to take each out at least once before the end of the season. There's too much anger there now.

[jas123f1]

No - I don't think Massa should help Kimi in any other way than keep McLaren behind him. That's it. I think Kimi has a bigger motivation to win than Massa however so long as he has a ny "realistic chance" to be WDC. But I can think if it's last race and everything depends on Massa then team order will be of interest. But that's team order - Massa can drive his races as usually until that. IMO.

But I think also that every one at Ferrari would like to see a Ferrari driver be WDC rather than a McLaren driver, especially after all scandals and affairs..

:)

[555-04Q2]

he's risking his reputation for years to come to become Barrichello 2.0,

Wont happen. Until Hamilton put him out of the Italian GP from his first corner bump, Massa was ahead of Kimi in the WDC with only 5 races left. At the same stage Schumacher was about 20 to 30 points clear of Massa. If anything, Massa has shown that while Kimi is fast at times, he is indeed overrated. Next season will be interesting.

[janneppi]

You mean Hamilton's hit to the front tyre of Massa broke Ferrari's rear damper?
My gods, the man can sure drive. :)

[janneppi]

Michael was always that much better than Rubens, while this season it's a mechanical failure that ultimately made the difference between Kimi and Felipe.


Out of curiosity, what's the Mechanical problem rate with Ferrari drivers this year?
Kimi two, Massa two or three?

[leopard]

You mean Hamilton's hit to the front tyre of Massa broke Ferrari's rear damper?
My gods, the man can sure drive. :)
I think he does, Kimi should have shared cigar or something to Hamilton for that help :)

[Juppe]

Out of curiosity, what's the Mechanical problem rate with Ferrari drivers this year?
Kimi two, Massa two or three?

Kimi has retired 2 races with mechanical failure, Massa 1, but that is not the whole story.

All in all, I think their share of machanical failures is quite equal and does not dictate their order.

[markabilly]

"Out of curiosity, what's the Mechanical problem rate with Ferrari drivers this year?
Kimi two, Massa two or three?" by janneppi

Depends on whether you count qualifying, as in the time when Massa was clearly in contention for pole, only to run out of gas in pitlane, and end up way down the field, where he stayed for most of the race...............

and whether running out of gas qualifies as a mechanical failure or just stupid error or both..........

[Flat.tyres]

In an ideal world, they would all fight together but if Ferrari want both titles, they should throw everything behind Kimi. No problem with this.

[jens]

Although I like Felipe more, I have to admit that full backing of Kimi is now Ferrari's only and last hope. So I won't be disappointed if Felipe becomes a lapdog for the last three races (if that of course won't carry on next year :p : ). Of course Kimi's chances aren't great, but at least he has a slight chance. Felipe, I'm afraid, doesn't have even that. He lost his title chance at Monza. So in the present situation Ferrari will have to back Kimi and hope that his car won't break down... if it will, then both drivers are effectively out of WDC hunt.

[Eki]

Let's put it this way: If Alonso isn't helping Hamilton to win the WDC, then Massa isn't obliged to help Räikkönen.

[rabf1]

Massa will follow orders. Alonso won't.

[Osella]

Well, as a fan of Felipe for many years, I think he should help Raikkonen now. Schumacher and Barrichello both held station for each other at several times from 2002 to 2004, so did Villeneuve for Scheckter etc.

Much as I think without his retirements and mechanical failures, Felipe would be right up there with the McLaren drivers at this point, and has actually been the better driver of the Ferrari team so far, I would much rather see him second to Raikkonen in the remaining races just to stop McLaren winning the title!

[leopard]

Let's put it this way: If Alonso isn't helping Hamilton to win the WDC, then Massa isn't obliged to help Räikkönen.

Because both Alonso and Hamilton have the same chance on the title with their own effort, while mostly member can't be rest assured that Kimi can do it with his own effort. :)

[janneppi]

Osella
Much as I think without his retirements and mechanical failures, Felipe would be right up there with the McLaren drivers at this point,

Mind you, so would Räikkönen. ;)

[Juppe]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62608




Ferrari to now focus on drivers' crown

By Pablo Elizalde Friday, September 21st 2007, 16:45 GMT


Ferrari say they will focus all their efforts in winning the drivers' championship after being confirmed as constructors' champions on Friday.

Rivals McLaren announced today their decision to not appeal their exclusion from this year's constructors' championship, meaning Ferrari were automatically crowned as champions.

The Maranello squad acknowledged McLaren's decision and said they will concentrate on the drivers' title now.

"Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro has won the 2007 Formula One Constructors' World Championship, taking its tally in this competition to fifteen, seven of them in the last nine years," the Italian squad said in a statement.

"Vodafone McLaren Mercedes has actually chosen not to appeal against the decision of the FIA World Council taken on 13th September last, thus accepting the sentence handed out for violation of article 151c of the International Sporting Code.

"Ferrari will now invest all its efforts over the final three races of this championship in trying to also win the Drivers' world title."



I think this must mean that Ferrari is giving its support to Kimi in the title chase - I cannot think of any other interpretation. Do you agree?

[wmcot]

I think that ANY team in F1 with three races left and one driver having a better shot at the championship would give all the help they can to that driver (except McLaren who couldn't get the cooperation from either driver.) Remember, F1 is a team sport and a big business. It's smart business sense to support the one most likely to succeed. I would expect Kimi to support Massa if the points were reversed.

[Trqster]

Ferrari's gotta give full support to Kimi now...and hope for a "miracle" like Alonso and Hamilton taking each other out... :)

[osg]

The way the 3 boys in McLaren are behaving at the moment........ i wouldn't say Nando and LH taking eachother out would be a miracle......

It's a definate possibility.

[wmcot]

The way the 3 boys in McLaren are behaving at the moment........ i wouldn't say Nando and LH taking eachother out would be a miracle......

It's a definate possibility.
Hmm...I was just thinking that if you play around with Alonso's and Hamilton's initials, you can spell the word "HALF." Wonder if there is some hidden significance there???? ;)

[jso1985]

posted by 555-04Q2
"Until Hamilton put him out of the Italian GP from his first corner bump"

holy guacomole! Lewis is a genius! he can take out rivals off the race without damaging his own car and even better his rival car won't fail until 12 laps later so noone will actually suspect on him! pure genius!

Now seriously, Massa tried as best as he could but being reallistic only Kimi has a chance now, Massa has proved he can be faster than Kimi so no reputation at stake here

[leopard]

wmcot
Hmm...I was just thinking that if you play around with Alonso's and Hamilton's initials, you can spell the word "HALF." Wonder if there is some hidden significance there????

"Half Schumacher"

[Flat.tyres]

The way the 3 boys in McLaren are behaving at the moment........ i wouldn't say Nando and LH taking eachother out would be a miracle......

It's a definate possibility.

Q. If you were Alonso, would you prefer Lewis or Kimi to win the WDC and take your crown.

A. Possibility = probabality.

[Schnell]

87% here say so...it's a No Brainer!

[wmcot]

Q. If you were Alonso, would you prefer Lewis or Kimi to win the WDC and take your crown.

A. Possibility = probabality.

If you were Hamilton, would you prefer Alonso or Kimi? We're moving closer to a Villeneuve/Pironi or Senna/Prost situation every day with these two.

[Garry Walker]

Having thought a bit about it I think he should chose himself what he wants to do. Anything imposed by the team might lead to a McLarenesque atmosphere between the two drivers, and that would hurt the team over a longer distance.

Did you think the same when RB was made Schumachers bitch (and I am a fan of Schumacher)


Wont happen. Until Hamilton put him out of the Italian GP from his first corner bump
Crazy. Massa had problems with his rear damper, if you can show me where Hamilton touched his rear damper at monza, you will be my king forever.


Q. If you were Alonso, would you prefer Lewis or Kimi to win the WDC and take your crown.


Kimi anytime.

[ioan]

Did you think the same when RB was made Schumachers bitch (and I am a fan of Schumacher)

When was that RB was equal on points or better with MS after 12 races in a season?!

RB was never going to beat MS over a season because he simply wasn't good enough.
If someone thinks that Rubens is/was WDC material...

[Flat.tyres]

When was that RB was equal on points or better with MS after 12 races in a season?!

RB was never going to beat MS over a season because he simply wasn't good enough.
If someone thinks that Rubens is/was WDC material...

It seems fruitless trying to second guess whay Rubins could have done had he been given a fair crack at the whip because Schumacher always got best strategy and RB was usually compromised to maximise MS's effort.

[ioan]

It seems fruitless trying to second guess whay Rubins could have done had he been given a fair crack at the whip because Schumacher always got best strategy and RB was usually compromised to maximise MS's effort.


As I remember, when he quit at Ferrari, RB declared that he was always given equal equipment. However he rarely proved to be faster than MS.

He rarely was faster than MS in qualifying. What should motivate Ferrari to give him the best strategy if he isn't faster?

I doubt you would bet your money on the slower horse, so we can maybe have a link to some facts proving that RB should have been favored for the title?

[Garry Walker]

When was that RB was equal on points or better with MS after 12 races in a season?! And what relevance does that have? Rubens was Schumis bitch from 1st race on and for a good reason. He never managed to sustain enough pace to complete with MS for a whole season.
Now, Kimi is the best hope for Ferraris WDC title now, not FM. I would have preferred to see FM be that man and take the title, but it is not going to happen now (even Kimis title seem very unlike, but cant give up hope that cheaters are beaten). So now, FM needs to be nr.2 for the next 3 races and help Kimi win, while making life as hard for McLarens as possible. If he doesnt like it and complains, or it hurts it mentally for next season, then he is never going to be a champion. If he doesnt like it and refuses to do it, then Ferrari should send him packing at once. Tough luck, he is paid loads of money by the team and given a superb opportunity.
I think if FMs and Kimis roles were reversed, you would agree with me here.



RB was never going to beat MS over a season because he simply wasn't good enough.
If someone thinks that Rubens is/was WDC material...
No relevance at all.
Team is there to get the WDC and needs to maximise their opportunities. If KR is the best chance at the moment, then they need to concentrate on him. Simple as that.

[wmcot]

Team is there to get the WDC and needs to maximise their opportunities. If KR is the best chance at the moment, then they need to concentrate on him. Simple as that.

Yep!

[ioan]

And what relevance does that have? Rubens was Schumis bitch from 1st race on and for a good reason.

But this isn't the case with their current line up, and it is for good reason too.
If Felipe decides to help Kimi than it's OK, and I think he will do it, but if not than forcing him to do it would destroy the team.


Now, Kimi is the best hope for Ferraris WDC title now, not FM. I would have preferred to see FM be that man and take the title, but it is not going to happen now (even Kimis title seem very unlike, but cant give up hope that cheaters are beaten). So now, FM needs to be nr.2 for the next 3 races and help Kimi win, while making life as hard for McLarens as possible. If he doesnt like it and complains, or it hurts it mentally for next season, then he is never going to be a champion. If he doesnt like it and refuses to do it, then Ferrari should send him packing at once. Tough luck, he is paid loads of money by the team and given a superb opportunity.
I think if FMs and Kimis roles were reversed, you would agree with me here.

I do agree with you, I was just pointing out why with Rubens was easier to understand the reasoning of the team.



Team is there to get the WDC and needs to maximise their opportunities. If KR is the best chance at the moment, then they need to concentrate on him. Simple as that.

I have no doubt that they will do it. But I think that Todt will be very careful about how he handles this situation. These drivers have huge egos, and if not handled carefully than the WDC will not be worth the trouble.
Given the fact that Felipe's chances to the title vanished because of a mechanical failure, in the case he is asked to help Kimi win the WDC and supposing that Kimi gets the title this season (chances are slim but still exist), they will have to promise him that next year they will concentrate on him to equalize the balance. Otherwise any chance for a fair treatment will be lost within the team.

We will know more about this after this week end.

[ArrowsFA1]

We will know more about this after this week end.
We know now:

Felipe Massa says he is ready to play a supporting role to Kimi Raikkonen in the drivers' championship if he is required to this weekend.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62742

[Juppe]

....
Given the fact that Felipe's chances to the title vanished because of a mechanical failure, in the case he is asked to help Kimi win the WDC and supposing that Kimi gets the title this season (chances are slim but still exist), they will have to promise him that next year they will concentrate on him to equalize the balance. Otherwise any chance for a fair treatment will be lost within the team.

....


Excuse me Ioan, what the hey do you mean by this?

There was no single a mechanical failure as you seem to insist that ruined Massa's possibilities - there were a few mechanical issues and mistakes by the team as well as driver errors that were shared about equally between the two driver's. You still keep closing your eyes from the fact that Kimi retired two races with mechanical failure.

The only fair way to look at the next year, is the same as this year. If the other driver gets substantial advantage over the other then he is given a better chance, but no sooner.

So what would your equalizing the balance mean? As if there was any need for equalizing this any further.

[ioan]

Excuse me Ioan, what the hey do you mean by this?

There was no single a mechanical failure as you seem to insist that ruined Massa's possibilities - there were a few mechanical issues and mistakes by the team as well as driver errors that were shared about equally between the two driver's. You still keep closing your eyes from the fact that Kimi retired two races with mechanical failure.



One of them had more mechanical and team related problems. Guess who!



So what would your equalizing the balance mean? As if there was any need for equalizing this any further.

What I don't want to see is Kimi getting an advantage over Felipe next season based on a possible title won this season with the help of Felipe.

Maybe I expressed myself in the wrong way in the previous post. ;)

[Juppe]

One of them had more mechanical and team related problems. Guess who!


But the real question is that how many points both drivers have lost because of team's mistakes and I think the numbers are about equal.



What I don't want to see is Kimi getting an advantage over Felipe next season based on a possible title won this season with the help of Felipe.

Maybe I expressed myself in the wrong way in the previous post. ;)

Well, I understood from your post that you were suggesting that, if Kimi gets the title he should be appointed to a supporting role to help Felipe have a title too.

I know, it sounds utterly crazy, but that's how I read your post. ;)

[ioan]

But the real question is that how many points both drivers have lost because of team's mistakes and I think the numbers are about equal.

A bit difficult to quantify!



Well, I understood from your post that you were suggesting that, if Kimi gets the title he should be appointed to a supporting role to help Felipe have a title too.

I know, it sounds utterly crazy, but that's how I read your post. ;)

Yeah, after I read it again it comes across like that. My bad.

[Tazio]

We know now:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62742
This is so uterly the obvious thing to do. But It could all change at this weekends quali.
Let's let it play out guy's!

[janneppi]

A bit difficult to quantify!


One can make a educated guess.
First race, Massa would have propably won it.
Massa +7..+5
Kimi 0..-2

Spain, Kimi was third in quali, so maybe 6 points to him

Europe, Didn't see the whole race but Kimi had a good chance to get a podium, maybe even a win.
Massa 0..-2
Kimi +10..+6

Hungary can't be completely faulted to the team since Massa failed to get a good time in his first run.
Massa +8..+5
Kimi 0..-2

Italy, Massa third, maybe second, altough there are things that would suggest Kimi suffered the same problem in practice when he hit the wall, looking at their relative speeds lately he could have easily been ahead of Massa, or even Hamilton with his race car and a good neck.
Massa +8..+5
Kimi +2.. -1

Massa could have points anywhere between 100- 90
Where as Kimi could have points between 100- 91
(may contain errors in math ;) )
Shoul have, would have, could have. :p :

[Crypt]

I've always expected that if one driver has a real shot at WDC, then the whole team should rally behind them. Massa has proven himself to the F1 world, he has nothing to lose in the respect department if he helps his team get a driver at the top. It shows alot of respect as well for the team and the other driver to put your own ego aside and do what it takes to see your team on both podiums.

Now would Kimi do the same for Massa? I really don't know that answer. I would think it would be no, but then again Ferrari is calling the shots in the end and signing his paychecks. It's a formula that has worked for them in the past with Schumi and Chello.

There is that .01% of me who thinks he should race his arse off till the very end.

Course, I am biased on this particular topic :P

But people, remember Ron 'Honest' Dennis....it's not team orders, it's team strategy.

[ShiftingGears]

One can make a educated guess.
First race, Massa would have propably won it.



I'm not so sure...Kimi's fastest lap was over a second quicker than everyone elses.

[ioan]

One can make a educated guess.
First race, Massa would have propably won it.
Massa +7..+5
Kimi 0..-2

Spain, Kimi was third in quali, so maybe 6 points to him

Europe, Didn't see the whole race but Kimi had a good chance to get a podium, maybe even a win.
Massa 0..-2
Kimi +10..+6

Hungary can't be completely faulted to the team since Massa failed to get a good time in his first run.
Massa +8..+5
Kimi 0..-2

Italy, Massa third, maybe second, altough there are things that would suggest Kimi suffered the same problem in practice when he hit the wall, looking at their relative speeds lately he could have easily been ahead of Massa, or even Hamilton with his race car and a good neck.
Massa +8..+5
Kimi +2.. -1

Massa could have points anywhere between 100- 90
Where as Kimi could have points between 100- 91
(may contain errors in math ;) )
Shoul have, would have, could have. :p :

So basically if their reliability would have been perfect they would be about equal, and not separated by 7 points.
Thanks for your guess' and for the math! :)

[ioan]

I'm not so sure...Kimi's fastest lap was over a second quicker than everyone elses.

Because the only other driver driving a good enough car was on a 1 stop strategy and in the middle of the pack trying to make up for a mechanical problem in qualifying.

[janneppi]

So basically if their reliability would have been perfect they would be about equal, and not separated by 7 points.
Thanks for your guess' and for the math! :)
Or by ten points in either way. :)
'Massa had the advantage in early races, where as Kimi has caught up, or even seemed to be faster in the latter part of the season.
Personally,using my own math and slightly blue/white tinted glasses, I'd put Kimi at 98 points and Massa at 94.

[ioan]

Or by ten points in either way. :)
'Massa had the advantage in early races, where as Kimi has caught up, or even seemed to be faster in the latter part of the season.
Personally,using my own math and slightly blue/white tinted glasses, I'd put Kimi at 98 points and Massa at 94.

Ahhh, I can't find my tinted glasses!
I'll have to go with 95 - 95 at least until I find those glasses. ;)

[ShiftingGears]

Because the only other driver driving a good enough car was on a 1 stop strategy and in the middle of the pack trying to make up for a mechanical problem in qualifying.

obviously - but I still think he shouldve been closer to raikkonens fastest lap time in that situation.

= armchair speculation

[Lalo]

They should fight evenly, specially supposing there's no number 1 driver in Ferrari.

[janneppi]

Took me long enough but finally came round to saying yes.

Masa needs to be between Kimi and Alonso in Brazil and some one needs to punt Hamilton off the track. ;)

I got the impression from Todt's commets today that Massa was acting as tester for Kimi's dry tyre change timing.

[Tazio]

“If Kimi has a chance during the race to win the championship, I think it’s very good for the team and I would also be very happy to help the team,” the Brazilian said on Sunday.

“If maybe Lewis or Fernando are in the middle and we have no chance, I will try to win the race.”

(REUTERS)

It looks like Massa is "all in" in support of Kimi. If this is a mixed condition race it could get quite interesting. Why do I feel like Ferrari are going to come up with a new and creative way to win the WDC?

[wmcot]

Why do I feel like Ferrari are going to come up with a new and creative way to win the WDC?

Like finding a way to make Lewis' tires wear out? ;)

[Tazio]

Like finding a way to make Lewis' tires wear out? ;)
Now that you mention it McLaren has of recent years been known to be very kind to there tires compared to Ferrari. This season it seems to be the other way around. Fred is notoriously bad on the fronts. In China LH thrashed his rears(rain). I know a lot of it is driving style, and setup. But there may be another factor...............Conspiracy theory anyone?

[truefan72]

Now that you mention it McLaren has of recent years been known to be very kind to there tires compared to Ferrari. This season it seems to be the other way around. Fred is notoriously bad on the fronts. In China LH thrashed his rears(rain). I know a lot of it is driving style, and setup. But there may be another factor...............Conspiracy theory anyone?


I think Hamilton was just out too long that's all. All tyres break down eventually and with drying conditions and no water for inter's they were taking a huge gamble. If you saw closely the tyre wear once they took them off from the other guys then you would see how badly degraded they were.

But yes, Ferrari seems to be doing a better job at tyre maintenance than Mcclaren.

oh and yes, Massa should back up Kimmi,

[Tazio]

But yes, Ferrari seems to be doing a better job at tyre maintenance than Mcclaren.


I didn't see Kimi's rears, his fronts were pretty much slicks. But when Kimi was catching Lewis up, Lew was going off line to find water. While Kimi was staying on the racing line that was pretty dry. To me there seemed to be a sustantial difference in the rate of wear. Am I mistaken (wouldn't be the first time) that Kimi was on his first set untill his second stop?

[truefan72]

I didn't see Kimi's rears, his fronts were pretty much slicks. But when Kimi was catching Lewis up, Lew was going off line to find water. While Kimi was staying on the racing line that was pretty dry. To me there seemed to be a sustantial difference in the rate of wear. Am I mistaken (wouldn't be the first time) that Kimi was on his first set untill his second stop?

yes you are right,

the weight difference, balance of the car, toe in, camber, etc all play a part in the rate of degradation, but they do seem to last substantially longer. hmmm....

[Roamy]

well if he really wants to do it right he will put both Fa and LH in the first corner. what is so hard about this. and will be back Kimi - well where do you want to drive next year??

[Tazio]

I don't know if Massa will be an instrament of Kimi's success. But I'l tell you one thing this fine Brazilian got nothin' but love.

It will be interesting for me in the future to try and give some help to the large numbers of poor here in Brazil. In Formula 1, everyone is very lucky to have a good life, to have had a good education and to be involved in something we enjoy and to have the opportunity to try and make a success of one's life. However, if you see the problems some people have, it brings home the importance of doing something about it. It only needs you to do very little to help a lot of people. For me that is a great thing and I am happy to have started this involvement with such a worthwhile organisation.

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/6617/617/

[truefan72]

I don't know if Massa will be an instrament of Kimi's success. But I'l tell you one thing this nigga's got nothin' but love.

It will be interesting for me in the future to try and give some help to the large numbers of poor here in Brazil. In Formula 1, everyone is very lucky to have a good life, to have had a good education and to be involved in something we enjoy and to have the opportunity to try and make a success of one's life. However, if you see the problems some people have, it brings home the importance of doing something about it. It only needs you to do very little to help a lot of people. For me that is a great thing and I am happy to have started this involvement with such a worthwhile organisation.

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/6617/617/

Hey Tazio

I take offence to that comment refering to the N word
it has no place in this forum and actually is personally offensive for a whole variety of reasons.

i can't beleive the mods let that one go.