Current best wet weather driver?

[ShiftingGears]

Well, since it was widely accepted that Schumacher was the best wet weather driver of his time, who do you guys think is currently the rainmaster?

I vote Alonso, based on Hungary this year.

[samuratt]

Im with you on this one...

Taking into account that M Schumacher is no longer driving, i would say Alonso, based on the magnificent performance he did in Hungary last year.

From P17 to P1 in 17 laps and overtaking Michael on the outside... AMAZING!!!!

:bandit:

[Donney]

Alonso is very good in the wet and based on Hungary so is Button, but I think Alonso is a little better.

[Sleeper]

After Hungary I would say Button, not as good a start as Alonso but was catching him in a slower car, and was ahead of him and going 2 sec a lap faster when Alonso retired as well.

[Roamy]

I think Alonso was better than MS when he was still active. I don't recall many spectactular drives from MS after everyone else got TC.

[Narr]

Considering the car I would say Button is awesome in the wet, the car just isn't that good in the dry and the wet is one of the few remaining areas you can see where a driver is good and not being flattered by the car.

In (I think) China Button showed his wet weather prowess too, handling the slippery track so much better than others (and getting Heidfeld riled up in the process, although that was more down to Sato).

[Pedro Gonçalves]

Tiago is also a good driver in the rain, despite the car he's driving... Remember SPA last year and Hungary this year...

[Mikeall]

Tiago is also a good driver in the rain, despite the car he's driving... Remember SPA last year and Hungary this year...

Spa last was good. Hungary was poor however. OK he beat his teammate but he also spun off (but rejoined) and was miles behind everyone else. He only finished 9th because so many people retired.

[Mikeall]

The best drivers are either Alonso or Button. Massa is still the worst.

[Bezza]

Fisi.

[Pedro Gonçalves]

Spa last was good. Hungary was poor however. OK he beat his teammate but he also spun off (but rejoined) and was miles behind everyone else. He only finished 9th because so many people retired.

Don't say that, instead, you may say that he only finish 9th because the steward's decide to qualify Schumacher... ;)

[Simon Speichert]

If someone asked this question in a couple years, we could be saying Nico Hulkenberg. Great performances in the wet this year in A1 at Zandvoort and Sepang - and he's a young German so I'm sure he'll be a BMW tester soon enough!

[F1boat]

After Shumacher retired, I say Fernando Alonso.

[jens]

Who is the best? Well, can't name only one (as usual). Honorable mentions to Alonso, Räikkönen and Button. Also Monteiro, Barrichello, R. Schumacher, Fisichella and Heidfeld have often shown strong performances.

What concerns Monteiro's huge loss in Hungary, then the Bridgestone's were really crap at that GP - otherwise he could have been able to shine more. :)

I remember Kubica competitively dancing around the circuit on slicks in wet conditions in 2005, when he was driving in the World Series by Renault. :) So far he has had a lot of learning to do with Formula One car in slippery conditions though, but probably we haven't seen the best from him yet...

[Dazz9908]

I think the title is up for grabs, No real stand outs yet. With only one real wet race last season, makes it hard to choose from. But if I have too, I'll take Button by a nose to Alonso.

The worst Wet weather driver award goes to my man, Webber. Hungary, He was a literal Fish out of water.

[jjanicke]

Based on 2007 peformance it has to be Button or Alonso. Button did a fantastic job, and was catching Fred, but that was in wet but drying conditions.

As far as the chin being "widely accepted as the (previous) best" I would have to argue, as some have already mentioned, having TC, while all others are fending for themselves, doesn't impress me that much.

[agwiii]

Depends upon what you mean by wet. On a wet track, but probably not a downpour, Barichello appears to have the edge. When the track is flooded -- standing water -- downpour conditions -- the lucky man is the best.

[Cozzie]

Alonso is the man! Its funny how great champions are good in any condition.

[Hawkmoon]

Based on 2007 peformance it has to be Button or Alonso. Button did a fantastic job, and was catching Fred, but that was in wet but drying conditions.

As far as the chin being "widely accepted as the (previous) best" I would have to argue, as some have already mentioned, having TC, while all others are fending for themselves, doesn't impress me that much.

Don't listen to fousto jjanicke, he talks out of his arse most of the time. ;)

Schumacher's drive at Barcelona in '96 showed how damn good he was in the wet. Even Villeneuve complemented him on the drive. Spa '98 is another example. He was on another planet until he came up on Coulthard.

Trying to shrug off his performances as being down to illegal traction control is not only incorrect, it comes across as mildly petulant and you're too intelligent for that.

As for current wet weather masters, I would have to say Alonso looks like he's pretty good. I think Barrichello deserves some mention here too, although I don't think he's still as good as he once was.

Nobody really stands out like Senna and Schumacher did, though Alonso might be. I think we need more wet races to get a better idea.

[zoostation]

button or alonso. massa not too sure after hungary. i lean towards button simply because he was able to keep up with and eventually catch nando with an inferior car.

[Roamy]

Don't listen to fousto jjanicke, he talks out of his arse most of the time. ;)

Schumacher's drive at Barcelona in '96 showed how damn good he was in the wet. Even Villeneuve complemented him on the drive. Spa '98 is another example. He was on another planet until he came up on Coulthard.

Trying to shrug off his performances as being down to illegal traction control is not only incorrect, it comes across as mildly petulant and you're too intelligent for that.

As for current wet weather masters, I would have to say Alonso looks like he's pretty good. I think Barrichello deserves some mention here too, although I don't think he's still as good as he once was.

Nobody really stands out like Senna and Schumacher did, though Alonso might be. I think we need more wet races to get a better idea.

Hey RockPile in 96 and 98 he had TC while others had none - Do I have to pull the 10 page fact sheet out again for you.

[EuroTroll]

Do I have to pull the 10 page fact sheet out again for you.

Fousto, maybe you should make a thread about this in History and Nostalgia? I'm sure it would be an interesting and emotional discussion. :D

[jens]

Interesting that you are all mentioning Button, but only one of you has noticed Barrichello.

I think wet races were one of those rare examples, where Barrichello managed to match Button (still!) this year. In Hungary he was driving ahead, but wrong tyre choice before the start of the race resulted in extra pitstop and not higher than 4th place at the end of the race. And in China he was ahead of Button until the last lap.

[Ranger]

Hey RockPile in 96 and 98 he had TC while others had none - Do I have to pull the 10 page fact sheet out again for you.

In Belgium 1997 he pulled off a 40 second lead in 6 laps in the wet. TC or no TC, the fact is that he was a pretty damn good wet driver.

[eloyf1]

Alonso... If we forgot Hungary 2006 GP, he showed his skills in Brazil 2003 too, when all the great drivers were out

[BDunnell]

Button has always been a good wet-weather driver. In his first season with Williams, he was superb in the rain at Hockenheim, and would probably have finished third had the race gone on for one or two more laps.

However, these things always tend to be based on certain exceptional results rather than any overall picture of a driver's wet-weather abilities. Don't forget that Schumacher has also made some notable mistakes in wet conditions, such as at Monaco in 1996 and Brazil in 2003.

For me, this topic always brings to mind the British touring car driver Tim Harvey, who was always described as being a wet-weather specialist. This was based on his having won a race in the rain at the European GP meeting at Donington in 1993 driving a hopeless Renault 19, but which was intrinsically quick in the wet because the chassis flexed so much and it had Michelin tyres; two wins, both fairly lucky, at a wet Brands Hatch in 1995 in a Volvo 850 that was the class of the field there; and a near victory in a fairly hopeless Peugeot 406 at Thruxton in 1997 caused by a timely tyre change. There was no all-round evidence to support the claim that he always went well in the wet, and I suspect the same is true of a lot of F1 drivers about whom this is said.

[Hawkmoon]

Hey RockPile in 96 and 98 he had TC while others had none - Do I have to pull the 10 page fact sheet out again for you.

Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make true. :D

By your logic every car that Tad Czapski worked on was running illegal electronics. At least, that's what I assume your getting at by making the link between the '94 Benetton and '98 Ferrari.

So the last few Renaults must have had some illegal software or electronic gizmos as Mr Czapski has been working for Renault lately, hasn't he?

Give Schumi the credit he deserves. Love him or hate him, he was bloody good in the wet.

You really should let this fixation with Schumacher/Czapski/TC go. It's bad for the digestion. ;) :D

[stevie_gerrard]

Button without a doubt, wish he could race like that all the time though :p :

[Ranger]

Alonso... If we forgot Hungary 2006 GP, he showed his skills in Brazil 2003 too, when all the great drivers were out

Dunno about his ability to see yellow flags in the wet though! :p :

[agwiii]

Dunno about his ability to see yellow flags in the wet though! :p :

LOL

[Narr]

Interesting that you are all mentioning Button, but only one of you has noticed Barrichello.

I think wet races were one of those rare examples, where Barrichello managed to match Button (still!) this year. In Hungary he was driving ahead, but wrong tyre choice before the start of the race resulted in extra pitstop and not higher than 4th place at the end of the race. And in China he was ahead of Button until the last lap.

On the flip side Rubens was ahead until it started to rain and making the correct tyre choice or working with what you have is a sign of skill.

[agwiii]

On the flip side Rubens was ahead until it started to rain and making the correct tyre choice or working with what you have is a sign of skill.


A sign of skill, but luck is also involved in such decisions. Coming in on a drying track for dry tires early can make you into a winner or put you into the gravel.

[Bezza]

Button has always been a good wet-weather driver. In his first season with Williams, he was superb in the rain at Hockenheim, and would probably have finished third had the race gone on for one or two more laps.

However, these things always tend to be based on certain exceptional results rather than any overall picture of a driver's wet-weather abilities. Don't forget that Schumacher has also made some notable mistakes in wet conditions, such as at Monaco in 1996 and Brazil in 2003.

For me, this topic always brings to mind the British touring car driver Tim Harvey, who was always described as being a wet-weather specialist. This was based on his having won a race in the rain at the European GP meeting at Donington in 1993 driving a hopeless Renault 19, but which was intrinsically quick in the wet because the chassis flexed so much and it had Michelin tyres; two wins, both fairly lucky, at a wet Brands Hatch in 1995 in a Volvo 850 that was the class of the field there; and a near victory in a fairly hopeless Peugeot 406 at Thruxton in 1997 caused by a timely tyre change. There was no all-round evidence to support the claim that he always went well in the wet, and I suspect the same is true of a lot of F1 drivers about whom this is said.

Not wishing to take this topic away from F1 but Harvey's credentials as a wet weather specialist far outweigh any other BTCC driver!

If you watch from 1991 to 1995, Harvey wins every wet race bar the cancelled 1991 Silverstone round which nobody won! Much more than just good fortune I think.

[BDunnell]

Not wishing to take this topic away from F1 but Harvey's credentials as a wet weather specialist far outweigh any other BTCC driver!

If you watch from 1991 to 1995, Harvey wins every wet race bar the cancelled 1991 Silverstone round which nobody won! Much more than just good fortune I think.

He doesn't actually, but as you say, that's beside the point.

[Viv]

Button, Alonso, Barrichello, and also Fisi I think. He did exceptionally well to get to that position in that Jordan I think, even though the race was stopped n his engine blew.

[eloyf1]

Dunno about his ability to see yellow flags in the wet though! :p :
You're right too... XD

[agwiii]

Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make true. :D

By your logic every car that Tad Czapski worked on was running illegal electronics. At least, that's what I assume your getting at by making the link between the '94 Benetton and '98 Ferrari.

So the last few Renaults must have had some illegal software or electronic gizmos as Mr Czapski has been working for Renault lately, hasn't he?

Give Schumi the credit he deserves. Love him or hate him, he was bloody good in the wet.

You really should let this fixation with Schumacher/Czapski/TC go. It's bad for the digestion. ;) :D


:up:

[ArrowsFA1]

Best wet weather driver now = the one with the best TC :down:

[EuroTroll]

Best wet weather driver now = the one with the best TC :down:

Yes, there's a lot of truth in that.

[jso1985]

TC is the best weather driver! :down:
But still some drivers manage to shine by themselves, that's when Alonso, Button, Barrichello and Monteiro get my mention

[ioan]

Hey RockPile in 96 and 98 he had TC while others had none - Do I have to pull the 10 page fact sheet out again for you.

We've never seen more than pure speculation from you on this matter so you could really finally show us that "fact sheet"! :p :

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Why are we discussing Michael Schumacher when the thread is the 'CURRENT' Best wet weather driver?

The best driver is often best in the wet, so i have to go with Alonso.

The wet usually shows who the most over-rated drivers are.

[Narr]

Why are we discussing Michael Schumacher when the thread is the 'CURRENT' Best wet weather driver?



Exactly, he showed up way too much inconsistency for anyone to think that his wet weather driving was actually down to the driver ;)

[jjanicke]

Don't listen to fousto jjanicke, he talks out of his arse most of the time. ;)

Schumacher's drive at Barcelona in '96 showed how damn good he was in the wet. Even Villeneuve complemented him on the drive. Spa '98 is another example. He was on another planet until he came up on Coulthard.

Trying to shrug off his performances as being down to illegal traction control is not only incorrect, it comes across as mildly petulant and you're too intelligent for that.

As for current wet weather masters, I would have to say Alonso looks like he's pretty good. I think Barrichello deserves some mention here too, although I don't think he's still as good as he once was.

Nobody really stands out like Senna and Schumacher did, though Alonso might be. I think we need more wet races to get a better idea.

Hawkmoon Schumacher has shown his ability in the wet. very good no doubt about it, and even on equal footing ;)

I'm taking issue with him being widely accepted as the master of the wet. This is simply not true.

[jjanicke]

In Belgium 1997 he pulled off a 40 second lead in 6 laps in the wet. TC or no TC, the fact is that he was a pretty damn good wet driver.

I also recently remember the exact opposite happening, at spa no less.

[Ranger]

I also recently remember the exact opposite happening, at spa no less.

Maybe so, but my little example was to point out that he still did do very well in the wet in the years where, according to fousto, he didn't have illegal electronics in the car.

[agwiii]

Best wet weather driver now = the one with the best TC :down:

Sad, but true.

[Roamy]

So there ioan - I don't even need to post the fact sheet - just listen to your collegues !! ioan you can't fool all the people. Well maybe you can if your name is TAD

[Sleeper]

If TC is so good in the wet then why do drivers still spin, or some drivers still go faster than their team mates? It might help, theres no question about that, but lets not delude ourselves that it changes anything to do with driver skill, most of which is used on corner entry anyway.

[Hawkmoon]

Hawkmoon Schumacher has shown his ability in the wet. very good no doubt about it, and even on equal footing ;)

I'm taking issue with him being widely accepted as the master of the wet. This is simply not true.

I couldn't disagree more and don't believe you can make the statement "This is simply not true." as if it is fact. We are, after all, simply stating our opinions.

I believe Schumacher was easliy the best wet-weather driver out there for the majority of his career. I also believe he must be considered in any discussion of the best ever wet-weather driver.

That's just my opinion and a subjective one at that. So I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

[EuroTroll]

So there ioan - I don't even need to post the fact sheet - just listen to your collegues !! ioan you can't fool all the people. Well maybe you can if your name is TAD

Oh go on Fousto, post the fact sheet. Some of us have never seen it.

[ArrowsFA1]

...lets not delude ourselves that it changes anything to do with driver skill...
Lets take TC off the cars, then race at Spa in the wet, and we'd see how true that is :)

[agwiii]

Lets take TC off the cars, then race at Spa in the wet, and we'd see how true that is :)

LOL! We would see an amazingly strung-out field at SPA in the wet without traction control. There would be some amazing physiological changes within the cockpits as things shrunk and withdrew. LOL!

[wedge]

If TC is so good in the wet then why do drivers still spin, or some drivers still go faster than their team mates? It might help, theres no question about that, but lets not delude ourselves that it changes anything to do with driver skill, most of which is used on corner entry anyway.

Exactly.

Whenever the producers show telemetry, anyone notice how Schumi was ultra smooth with throttle application in the wet and yet he floors the pedal with loads of TC in the dry?

TC will only do so much. As soon as the car aquaplanes its game over - the car will snap into a spin. Only lightning reflexes and supreme car control will give you a chance to save you from crashing or being beached in gravel.

[ArrowsFA1]

Whenever the producers show telemetry, anyone notice how Schumi was ultra smooth with throttle application in the wet and yet he floors the pedal with loads of TC in the dry?

TC will only do so much.
Very true. But equally, why do the drivers turn off TC on the warm-up lap before the race? They spin the tyres to generate heat quickly. Something they can't do with TC turned on.

They do the same at the Goodwood Festival of Speed. Loads of welly, smoke, car control and entertainment.

TC takes away one aspect of a drivers skill. It doesn't take away the skill itself, but it does take away the ability to use it fully.

[jens]

Lets take TC off the cars, then race at Spa in the wet, and we'd see how true that is :)

Why not at Monaco? :D Monaco + rain = guaranteed chaotic race.

[OTA]

But then again, without the TC the speeds, specially over the lenght of the race would, would be less. What's more difficult to drive "slow" a harder to drive car, or to drive "fast" a easy to drive car? I don't really know, but I tend to think that good drivers are so regardless of what's under the butt.

cheers
David

[Eki]

Does this really matter? Most of the races recently have been dry anyway.

[Sleeper]

But then again, without the TC the speeds, specially over the lenght of the race would, would be less. What's more difficult to drive "slow" a harder to drive car, or to drive "fast" a easy to drive car? I don't really know, but I tend to think that good drivers are so regardless of what's under the butt.

cheers
David
The cars didnt get any faster when they re-introduced TC in '01, so their hardley going to be any slower, just a few chages in sofware and driving style and its back to square 1.

I think people make far too big a deal about TC. It does take away from a drive in some respects but not to the degree that I've seen some people sugesting. From what I can tell, its now easier for a young driver to get in the car and set times in the ball park of a more experienced driver, but its skill that determines how close to the edge of a cars max speed that a driver can get.

[Roamy]

Can anyone tell me if TAD is still with Renault and if so - how are those cars in the rain?

granted one must still drive it !!

[samuratt]

Exactly.


TC will only do so much. As soon as the car aquaplanes its game over - the car will snap into a spin. Only lightning reflexes and supreme car control will give you a chance to save you from crashing or being beached in gravel.

Do you mean the kind of reflexes needed to park your car without crashing it in the middle of La Rascasse??? ;)

Don't want to start a fight... I was just joking... :D

[agwiii]

As soon as the car aquaplanes its game over - the car will snap into a spin. Only lightning reflexes and supreme car control will give you a chance to save you from crashing or being beached in gravel.

This depends upon the forces on the car at the time. In a cornering situation, you are right - the car's gone. On a straight the chances are much better the car will continue until contact is re-established.