Do we care about the sport? (lets discuss cheating)

[Daniel]

Firstly can I just say that this is a thread about sport and motorsport in general and NOT an F1 discussion thread.

The recent discussion of the spygate affair made me laugh a bit.

Nothing personal or vindictive but I've found it apallingly sad how people have said that even if McLaren are found guilty they should not be harshly penalised because the season is so good so far and F1 "needs" McLaren.

Someone put across a similar argument about TTE (Toyota) being banned from the WRC in 1995 for having an air intake which bypassed the restrictor.

Have we come to a time in the human race when we care more about the show rather than fair play?

Recently we had the Tour de France which was marred by drug cheats to which everyone reacted negatively and we've had a few incidences of bad play in the Rugby World Cup to which the reaction has almost universally been negative.

Why is it that cycling fans are willing to string up drug cheats by the testicles, Rugby fans dislike people who trip yet some motorsport fans care more about the show than fair play?

To me nothing is more important than fair play in sport. What does it mean to you?

Discuss :)

[Erki]

These days, I find myself caring less and less about spectating(right word??? FF spell check says is not) any sport, motorsport included. Might be slightly different when it comes to actively taking part. ;)

[janneppi]

I wouldn't be able to watch any sports if I kept a puritan attitude towards them, every single sport has cheats.
It's a gray, slippery slope, but I don't really care that much.

[Daniel]

But is that right Janneppi? Should people watch sport with their children and learn that cheating is alright?

[Ian McC]

Nothing personal or vindictive but I've found it apallingly sad how people have said that even if McLaren are found guilty they should not be harshly penalised because the season is so good so far and F1 "needs" McLaren.



It's difficult to do this without refering to the problems in F1. It's about proof and in some cases guilt is not clear cut.

When you have solo sports like cycling or athletics then one person is solely responsible for their actions. In football if one person dives to get a penalty it has a direct effect on the game itself but if they are caught cheating then they will be penalised rather than the team.

When you look at something like F1 a lot of people can have an influence on a result, from the drivers down to engineers and technical staff. The impact on something here can have an effect on a whole season not just a race. But you still need the proof that cheating occured.

In the F1 case those people that you mention seem to me to be interested in having the proof that the theft had a direct effect on the teams performance rather than looking for excuses to aviod the punishment.

[Daniel]

It's difficult to do this without refering to the problems in F1. It's about proof and in some cases guilt is not clear cut.

When you have solo sports like cycling or athletics then one person is solely responsible for their actions. In football if one person dives to get a penalty it has a direct effect on the game itself but if they are caught cheating then they will be penalised rather than the team.

When you look at something like F1 a lot of people can have an influence on a result, from the drivers down to engineers and technical staff. The impact on something here can have an effect on a whole season not just a race. But you still need the proof that cheating occured.

In the F1 case those people that you mention seem to me to be interested in having the proof that the theft had a direct effect on the teams performance rather than looking for excuses to aviod the punishment.
I understand. What I meant was a hypothetical situation where a team DID benefit from that data but didn't get thrown out because it was deemed that they were too important to be totally thrown out. I'm not so much talking about the punishment that McLaren were given but the attitude of people to them if they were proven to have cheated :)

[Sleeper]

Personnaly I cant abide cheaters and find it a massive detraction for any sport and anyone that gets caught cheating should be penilesed appropriatly.

[janneppi]

But is that right Janneppi? Should people watch sport with their children and learn that cheating is alright?
Should people interact with other people who lie to others, speed in traffic, steal office supplies, kill small insects without a hint of remorse, etc... ;)

[Daniel]

Should people interact with other people who lie to others, speed in traffic, steal office supplies, kill small insects without a hint of remorse, etc... ;)
What's wrong with killing spiders? ;)

The thing is when you met me you didn't care whether I killed little insects, stole highlighters and sped in traffic ;)

Thing is sports people and teams are role models for people all around the world. I am not :)

[A.F.F.]

What is a highlighter?

[NoFender]

Professionals that cheat are not professionals. Pretty black and white. You wanna allow cheating, then just script the whole deal, and stop giving lawyers more money.

[CarlMetro]

I don't think that the spectacle should ever come before the rules. The whole concept of any sport is for various competitors, be they teams, countries or individuals, to compete against each other following the same set of rules.

I appreciate those who push those rules to the limit but once it has been proven that someone has gone beyond that limit then they are cheating and I'd rather not bother with them.

With reference to today's ruling, as much of a diehard Ferrari fan I am, if it had been Ferrari on the spy charges, my feelings would not change and I would expect them to recieve the same punnishment as any other.

[Storm]

Fair play means a lot to me in sport and in life as well.

But you are right that today the media and casual sport fans care more about the show aspect than any other thing..Cheating to win is basically not having enough skill and guts to win fair and square.

[Daniel]

I don't think that the spectacle should ever come before the rules. The whole concept of any sport is for various competitors, be they teams, countries or individuals, to compete against each other following the same set of rules.

I appreciate those who push those rules to the limit but once it has been proven that someone has gone beyond that limit then they are cheating and I'd rather not bother with them.

With reference to today's ruling, as much of a diehard Ferrari fan I am, if it had been Ferrari on the spy charges, my feelings would not change and I would expect them to recieve the same punnishment as any other.

Exactly. It seems we're reaching football hooligan levels of fanatacism where it doesn't matter what your team did or what your favourite player did you stand by your team because you were born and will die a <insert team name here> fan :crazy: Never been my sort of thing. If I found out Citroen had been cheating when Loeb took his titles I'd not support them. If a sport has to suffer to get rid of a few bad eggs then that's the best thing. Cheating will always be around but if a sport doesn't even try to give the impression of being clean then why watch. The Tour this year was a sad shadow of itself but at least when someone tested positive they got kicked out on their arse like they should have been :up: I respect that.

[janneppi]

I do hope you're not suggesting is should stop supporting FC Lahti because their lead goal scorer has a tendency to blatanly cheat by being slightly offside? :p :

[Daniel]

Of course not! Suggesting such a thing would be like asking for a ban oh wise one :p

[MrJan]

It's very difficult to support a team or person in any sport if you stick by fair play. When I watch my football team I turn a blind eye to a lot of the bad stuff they do (offside, bad tackles etc etc).

What the public do not abide is out and out cheating like drug cheats in Cycling or very bad tackles in Rugby and football. Motorsport is slightly different because we all know that every team is trying to get one up on the other. Okay so McLaren stole secrets but who actually believes that Ferrari have never done the same? (lets be honest they've probably done it this year) Also it's not cheating in the same way as running light, using an illegal engine and so on. It's just seeing what Ferrari are planning (put in the most simply of terminology)

[Drew]

Fair play, hmm. I get annoyed when players (I'm talking mainly football here) over react and dive. I don't like the idea of drugs helping people either.

But about kids, surely they just do that naturally to win?

[Hazell B]

Drew's just about summed it up perfectly - there's a line when players in most sports are plainly cheating and I don't like that. However, when something like a reverse grid in BTCC makes drivers slow for 10th place, it's fine by me. Smart use of rules isn't cheating.

Over the years there have been HUNDREDS of long distance horse races won by cheats who stop on the first lap of a steeplechase or hurdle race in the winter fog, then rejoin at the second lap and win on a fresh horse. Even the Grand National has been won by a blatant cheat in this way. Everyone knows but until about 30 years ago the powers that be let it happen rather than bother proving it. I hate that.
If those who govern a sport can't tackle cheats, or even define them in some cases, chances are I won't be able to get interested in the sport itself.

[Daniel]

Drew's just about summed it up perfectly - there's a line when players in most sports are plainly cheating and I don't like that. However, when something like a reverse grid in BTCC makes drivers slow for 10th place, it's fine by me. Smart use of rules isn't cheating.

Over the years there have been HUNDREDS of long distance horse races won by cheats who stop on the first lap of a steeplechase or hurdle race in the winter fog, then rejoin at the second lap and win on a fresh horse. Even the Grand National has been won by a blatant cheat in this way. Everyone knows but until about 30 years ago the powers that be let it happen rather than bother proving it. I hate that.
If those who govern a sport can't tackle cheats, or even define them in some cases, chances are I won't be able to get interested in the sport itself.
:up:

If you don't at least try and stop cheats then it just becomes a show.

[Hazell B]

If you don't at least try and stop cheats then it just becomes a show.

I've had a think about this, and worked out that even if the powers that be do try and stop cheats, it often backfires and brings the sport in to the wrong type of spotlight.

Take athletics and cycling. Not things I'm much interested in to be honest, but my partner follows both to some extent. Because it's just background noise to me, I only hear the 'drugs' side of it. I don't know who's competing, just that somebody said drugs, cheat or ban. Makes me distrust those sports as a whole, perhaps wrongly.

The more people are caught cheating, the more the passing viewer will assume they're all dodgy :mark:

Catch 22.

By the way, I was part of a cheat slur today.
I was at a ploughing match (those old boys take it far too seriously!) and dared to kick some straw that was on top of a heap of ploughed soil in to the next furrow so it would be ploughed under on the next pass. It seems that's cheating, but you can kick the straw in to a furrow from the un-ploughed side. Genuinely, I was told off by a member of the judges' committee. Thinking he was joking, I said Alonso made me do it :p : He wasn't joking.
Yes, the FIA will be seeing me next thursday :rolleyes:

[tinchote]

There's yet another "spying scandal" in the Women's Football Championship in China :s

[Hazell B]

How the hell can you spy in football?

I mean, it's not like they've invented a whole new form of leg joint or stuffed a ball with argon, is it? That's just news on the back of other ;) cheating sagas.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It's incredibly useful to know the other teams tactics in football ;) Formation's, Set piece routines etc..

[BeansBeansBeans]

Cheating is commonplace in most sports, especially at the top level.

Winning, it seems, is everthing, and some competitors will try anything in search of that competitive edge.

[johnny shell]

I'm a very fair & honest person. I used to race cars around here at a local, entry level. stock cars on a short oval.

what I found was that cheating was just part of the game. everyone cheated, that's just the way it was. it was all part of the game.

if you didn't cheat, you would literally have no chance of winning, period.

so, of course, I won :D

[Tomi]

I do hope you're not suggesting is should stop supporting FC Lahti because their lead goal scorer has a tendency to blatanly cheat by being slightly offside? :p :

You should stop to support football, golf + other girlie sports, and consentrate on motorsport in general.