FIA hearing - Mclaren out of WCC 2007 *merged*

[Daika]

McLaren Are Expelled For Two Years!!!

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62312
And it's done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The server is busy, so do not be surprised if you can't open the link :p :

[ioan]

What?

[Daika]

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,10918_1953085,00.html

[jens]

I have to say that I have surprised myself, because... I'm happy! :bounce: Probably the old Ferrari-love has come out again and I'm biased!

I feel sorry for two things though:
Hamilton - superb racing on his debut season, he has given everything from him to prove his worth and... everything ruined in such way... what a harsh experience for a rookie.
What will happen to Prodrive? :mark:

[Daika]

I have to say that I have surprised myself, because... I'm happy! :bounce: Probably the old Ferrari-love has come out again and I'm biased!

I feel sorry for two things though:
Hamilton - superb racing on his debut season, he has given everything from him to prove his worth and... everything ruined in such way... what a harsh experience for a rookie.
What will happen to Prodrive? :mark:

Waiting to hear wheter it relates to drivers or constructers championship or both.

[ioan]

What will happen to Prodrive? :mark:

Dave Richards is one of the happiest human beings in the world?!
His team will be the only McLaren on track next season and will get everything McLaren come up with, because mclaren will want to be up to date about how good their car is for when they come back in 2009!

[ioan]

Waiting to hear wheter it relates to drivers or constructers championship or both.

I don't know how can they dissociate them? Drivers points, as Constructors points, were won with the same knowledge being used.

[SGWilko]

Congrats to Ferrari on winning the championship in 2007. McLaren have been excleded from this and next years champ.

Only way for Ferrari to win I guess.

Now, if they don't manage it next year also, they really are useless.......

[rabf1]

Kimi WDC

[janneppi]

Ok, be nice, no provocations and don't get provocated. :)


Edit:

And don't mind my bad spelling. :D

[N. Jones]

WOW!

Still no word on whether its driver's, constructor's or both.

[ioan]

Don't get provocated?!

[N. Jones]

Well, there goes FGP for 2007! Only thing I can say since I already said wow somewhere else! :)

[Daniel]

Congrats to Ferrari on winning the championship in 2007. McLaren have been excleded from this and next years champ.

Only way for Ferrari to win I guess.

Now, if they don't manage it next year also, they really are useless.......
Silly. Cheating should be punished and unless there's been a miscarriage of justice it just has been punished.

[janneppi]

Don't get provocated?!
Sorry, provoked. :)

[F1boat]

Let's wait and see whether it is only to WDC or WCC, but good to see the cheaters punished. The show lost, but the sport won. Yet, lets see what is the actual verdict.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Wow, so I've seen my last f1 race. It feels strange.

[Mikeall]

Breaking news. All F1 websites stop working...

[jens]

One of the most interesting questions is the future of Hamilton. If Alonso has been associated with Renault, Toyota and etc teams, then Lewis has been associated only with Ferrari. The big question is: Would Ferrari really sack one of their current drivers in order to hire Lewis???

[Mikeall]

Maybe Coughlan's - I scanned all of the pages onto two CDs and got my wife to shred all of the evidence so it would be easier to return the dossier... excuse may have swayed things against McLaren. Plausible yes, likely no, but not necassarily incriminating.

[janneppi]

Bye bye pit passing, bring on meeting room passing.

[jjanicke]

Well that sncks. Ferrari are handed yet another championship.

That being said if Mclaren did do wrong they should be punished, and this alleged ruling certainly doesn't seem too far fetched given the potential severity of Mclaren's actions.

[ioan]

Sorry, provoked. :)

It wasn't the spelling, but the idea! If someone provokes me, I'm by definition provoked, so what can I do?! ;)

[Mikeall]

It is definitely unconfirmed at the moment according to pitpass and planetF1.

[F1boat]

I'm very interested about the evidence.

[janneppi]

It wasn't the spelling, but the idea! If someone provokes me, I'm by definition provoked, so what can I do?! ;)
Don't write anything which might get you banned the next day. :p :

[Corny]

does this really mean that alonso and hamilton will not start on sunday? can't be true uh?

[ioan]

Maybe this is the moment for a change in F1, a change for the better, better rules, better ruling, and better racing.

[F1boat]

I heard that the news are no longer at autosport? A joke?

[jjanicke]

One of the most interesting questions is the future of Hamilton. If Alonso has been associated with Renault, Toyota and etc teams, then Lewis has been associated only with Ferrari. The big question is: Would Ferrari really sack one of their current drivers in order to hire Lewis???

yes! Bye bye Massa.

[Mark]

No official confirmation yet then.

[ioan]

does this really mean that alonso and hamilton will not start on sunday? can't be true uh?

I couldn't care less, what's that exciting about winning cheaters?

[ioan]

The big question is: Would Ferrari really sack one of their current drivers in order to hire Lewis???

For a McLaren product with pure McLaren blood... I don't think that JT or RB want to be the new adoptive fathers of Hamy!

[jjanicke]

I couldn't care less, what's that exciting about winning cheaters?

So why have you historically been so excited about MS? Clearly he's cheated and won as well.

[rabf1]

Everyone cheats. They just got caught.

[Daika]

One of the most interesting questions is the future of Hamilton. If Alonso has been associated with Renault, Toyota and etc teams, then Lewis has been associated only with Ferrari. The big question is: Would Ferrari really sack one of their current drivers in order to hire Lewis???

Because Lewis is better. I'm not convinced that Massa or Raikonnen is any good when the face a uphill task, seems like they lose motivation. Fighting your way up from the back of the field. I rate Lewis very high, making the best out of a bad situation.

[N. Jones]

Cripes, is there a point to watching this year if the McLaren are excluded from both championships?

[F1boat]

We got way too excited:

GO TO EARLIER STORY GO TO THE NEWS INDEX
Clarification: WMSC yet to decide on verdict

By Steve Cooper Thursday, September 13th 2007, 15:09 GMT

The World Motor Sport Council has yet to agree on a final verdict, despite our earlier newsflash suggesting otherwise.

Sources have told autosport.com one of the options currently reviewed is to exclude McLaren from both the 2007 and 2008 championship - in line with the World Motor Sport Council's decision in July.

However the FIA said no decision has yet been made, although a verdict is expected imminently.

[ioan]

Because Lewis is better. I'm not convinced that Massa or Raikonnen is any good when the face a uphill task, seems like they lose motivation. Fighting your way up from the back of the field. I rate Lewis very high, making the best out of a bad situation.

I'm yet to see Lewis fighting his way from the back to the front in a F1 race, on the other hand Kimi and Felipe already did that!

[F1boat]

Now I guess that McLaren won't be punished or will be fined. I was stunned by that report and rightly so - McLaren should be OK with FIA with their ultra-popular champion.
All the whining or celebrating- all for nothing :)

[ioan]

So, we are still in the dark!

[jjanicke]

F1boat I hope so for out sake. otherwise it would become a 4 race borefest.

[Daika]

We got way too excited:

GO TO EARLIER STORY GO TO THE NEWS INDEX
Clarification: WMSC yet to decide on verdict

By Steve Cooper Thursday, September 13th 2007, 15:09 GMT

The World Motor Sport Council has yet to agree on a final verdict, despite our earlier newsflash suggesting otherwise.

Sources have told autosport.com one of the options currently reviewed is to exclude McLaren from both the 2007 and 2008 championship - in line with the World Motor Sport Council's decision in July.

However the FIA said no decision has yet been made, although a verdict is expected imminently.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070913180240.shtml
We can't do more then scrolling to F1 sites!

This is more exciting than a average race!!

[F1boat]

I would be happy if McLaren are punished as a team. I'd like to see Alonso winning the championship, though.

[jjanicke]

F1boat I hope so for our benefit, otherwise the season will become a 4 race borefest, and most likely all of next year as well.

[ioan]

Moderators should close this thread and open a new one as soon as we know the verdict, again!

PS:I forgot the smiley! :p :

[F1boat]

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070913180240.shtml
We can't do more then scrolling to F1 sites!

This is more exciting than a average race!!

And this is the saddest thing...

[jjanicke]

Why? This is an [unconfirmed] report thread. Can't we discuss the possible outcomes?

[ioan]

This is more exciting than a average race!!

Who said that the FIA can't come up with exciting things for the fans? :p :

[N. Jones]

We got way too excited:

GO TO EARLIER STORY GO TO THE NEWS INDEX
Clarification: WMSC yet to decide on verdict

By Steve Cooper Thursday, September 13th 2007, 15:09 GMT

The World Motor Sport Council has yet to agree on a final verdict, despite our earlier newsflash suggesting otherwise.

Sources have told autosport.com one of the options currently reviewed is to exclude McLaren from both the 2007 and 2008 championship - in line with the World Motor Sport Council's decision in July.

However the FIA said no decision has yet been made, although a verdict is expected imminently.

Yeah, that's true. Only place I see the expulsion is on P-F1, autosport (which is being slammed at the moment), and f1racing.net. Everyone else is waiting for the official verdict. I think I will wait to...

[Daika]

I'm yet to see Lewis fighting his way from the back to the front in a F1 race, on the other hand Kimi and Felipe already did that!

that's true. Most of the time he is on the podium steps.

[F1boat]

Unfortunately, F1 for me lost its charm this year. It has become a mix between comedy and tragedy, the essence of which we see today.

[Daika]

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2726626,00.html
According to reports on the BBC, the FIA's World Motor Sport Council has proposed that McLaren are excluded from the 2007 and 2008 World Championships.

However, the corporation claims that the exact nature of the punishment which will be meted out is still being discussed.

Yep al little bit premature..

[F1boat]

that's true. Most of the time he is on the podium steps.

If he is not, there is a crane to help him.

[Powered by Cosworth]

The suspense is killing me!

I've been refreshing all the F1 sites all day and theres nothing :(

[veeten]

nice thread name change... :laugh: :p :

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Hhmmmm.... if McLaren's banning proves to be true...

Pro-Drive stands to get a lot of support and a couple of drivers too...

racing the new... Silver Star Mercedes.




:rolleyes: Let's wait to see how Bernie wants this to be handled !!!

McLaren being banned would seriously wound television ratings, the life-blood of Formula One !!!

[Caroline]

Unfortunately, F1 for me lost its charm this year. It has become a mix between comedy and tragedy, the essence of which we see today.

It's a circus. Really, if this is sport at its highest level, well give me tiddlywinks.

Spying is disgraceful and Mclaren are my all time favourite team. It's disappointing. I feel sad that F1 is in the news for all the wrong reasons.

[Hiryu]

I couldn't care less, what's that exciting about winning cheaters?

Assuming that McLaren actually was cheating, and that this just isn't some set-up due to the stupidity of certain techies giving the enemies of Ron Dennis their chance.

From my perspective this process has all the legitimacy of a Saturday-night lynching in Mississippi.

Now we'll see if Ron Dennis actually has the goods to drag other people down with him.

[N. Jones]

grandprix.com have kept their head - stories that McLaren are excluded have NOT been confirmed as the WMC is still debating.

[F1boat]

I support banning Macca for the WCC. But the drivers... as much as I dislike Hamilton, neither he, nor Fernando are responcible for Macca's decisions.

[Daika]

going to do some grocery shopping, they better have a verdict when i come back!!

[F1boat]

They should make a movie out of this, you know.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Ron Dennis to marry Jean Todt, I don't think anyone saw that coming.

[trumperZ06]

They should make a movie out of this, you know.

;) Hell... even Hollywood wouldn't try and sell this movie script !!!

:s mokin:

[N. Jones]

LOVE that headline! This season went from one of the greats to one of the strangest!

[Daniel]

they're still going to get banned. Just a matter of time.

[N. Jones]

we will find out soon enough. Nothing more to say until then.

[rabf1]

Does anyone know how this process actually works? Is the "verdict" of the "counsel" final or can McLaren appeal?

[ioan]

Does anyone know how this process actually works? Is the "verdict" of the "counsel" final or can McLaren appeal?

The team can't appeal it, only their national racing authority can do it.

[ioan]

It also seems that Finnish moderators have a lot of time in their hands, and sense of humor too! ;)

[redson]

[quote="jens"]I have to say that I have surprised myself, because... I'm happy! :bounce: Probably the old Ferrari-love has come out again and I'm biased!

QUOTE]

I don´t know how can you feel happy, maybe you would feel happier if Ferrari raced against F3s or if the racing with no competition like in US 05

[Ian McC]

Autosports website has given up, I am sure they will decide soon, they wont want to miss dinner.

[janneppi]

It also seems that Finnish moderators have a lot of time in their hands, and sense of humor too! ;)
Emphasis on the time in hands. :D

[jens]

http://67.15.62.73/previews%5Cd07bel235.jpg

McLaren pack up the garage at Spa-Francorchamps.

[ioan]

I have to say that I have surprised myself, because... I'm happy! :bounce: Probably the old Ferrari-love has come out again and I'm biased!



I don´t know how can you feel happy, maybe you would feel happier if Ferrari raced against F3s or if the racing with no competition like in US 05

Maybe he doesn't like cheaters.

[F1boat]

Many Ferrari fans will be happy if McLaren are found guilthy and punished. Ferrari suffered Macca's insults in last years and now it'll be proven that not Ferrari are the cheaters.

[jens]

I don´t know how can you feel happy, maybe you would feel happier if Ferrari raced against F3s or if the racing with no competition like in US 05

Actually I didn't enjoy the dominations of 2002 and 2004! Honestly, this season's races haven't been interesting anyway (with a couple of exceptions) and although the loss of McLarens will make the competition more sparse, it's hard to see races becoming even less eventful. I agree that the last 4 races are probably going to be boring (at least not more than mere 4 races), but I'm positive about 2008. I think BMW might start fighting against Ferrari and other teams might surprise too, so I'm far from having an opinion that F1 is "dead".

[redson]

Maybe he doesn't like cheaters.

Can you tell me which device has copied McLaren from Ferrari using the data that Coughland had?

[Hondo]

Todt and Luca M, having to deliver the Championship this year are going to settle for nothing less than a ban. If they don't get it through FIA, they will go to outside courts. From what I've seen and heard, I don't think they have enough to get a ban from an outside court. It saddens me to say Ferrari has been whining like a beat dog all season. Although both technologies were initially approved, their "victimized" attitude pertaining to their sliding floor was deplorable compared to Renault's attitude when they were told to remove the mass damper. From a team aspect, I have been a Ferrari fan since first discovering F1 although when a particularly favorite driver appeared on the scene like Clark or Stewart I had my cross-over moments. In the last couple of years Ferrai's straight-faced hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitude has really rubbed me the wrong way.

IF Ferrari gets the 2 year ban on McLaren, I hope that:

McLaren will consider running a CART/CHAMP car team. That series would welcome them and having the McLaren name on board would do much to boost the series.

If McLaren is banned until 2009, I hope it is another 20 years before Ferrari sees another championship.

Seems like the last three years Ferrari has got it in their heads that they are unbeatable and if someone is beating them, they must be cheating. They seem to be forgeting all those lean years before the dream team was assembled.

[F1boat]

Actually I didn't enjoy the dominations of 2002 and 2004! Honestly, this season's races haven't been interesting anyway (with a couple of exceptions) and although the loss of McLarens will make the competition more sparse, it's hard to see races becoming even less eventful. I agree that the last 4 races are probably going to be boring (at least not more than mere 4 races), but I'm positive about 2008. I think BMW might start fighting against Ferrari and other teams might surprise too, so I'm far from having an opinion that F1 is "dead".

I still think that McLarn will not be punished, at least not too severely.

[ioan]

Can you tell me which device has copied McLaren from Ferrari using the data that Coughland had?

Their setup?
Their brake balance?

That's no device, but it is the key between winning and losing!

[Donney]

Wow this is like a roller coaster, first they are banned, then it is not certain, then the F1 sites collapse and it is getting on my nerves.

I have mixed feelings about this, I like to see cheaters punished and if it is proven beyond doubt then I agree with the banning, but on the other hand we had four thrilling races ahead of us and if this is true we have lost the most interesting season of all.

Now I frankly feel for the drivers, they just drove what the team gave them and very successfully so, and now they are suddenly facing a year sitting in front of the TV watching the others kids having fun at the circuits.

[redson]

Their setup?
Their brake balance?

That's no device, but it is the key between winning and losing!

So if I put Ferrari's setup in a Spyker they will start winning races?

[ioan]

Todt and Luca M, having to deliver the Championship this year are going to settle for nothing less than a ban. If they don't get it through FIA, they will go to outside courts. From what I've seen and heard, I don't think they have enough to get a ban from an outside court. It saddens me to say Ferrari has been whining like a beat dog all season. Although both technologies were initially approved, their "victimized" attitude pertaining to their sliding floor was deplorable compared to Renault's attitude when they were told to remove the mass damper. From a team aspect, I have been a Ferrari fan since first discovering F1 although when a particularly favorite driver appeared on the scene like Clark or Stewart I had my cross-over moments. In the last couple of years Ferrai's straight-faced hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitude has really rubbed me the wrong way.

IF Ferrari gets the 2 year ban on McLaren, I hope that:

McLaren will consider running a CART/CHAMP car team. That series would welcome them and having the McLaren name on board would do much to boost the series.

If McLaren is banned until 2009, I hope it is another 20 years before Ferrari sees another championship.

Seems like the last three years Ferrari has got it in their heads that they are unbeatable and if someone is beating them, they must be cheating. They seem to be forgeting all those lean years before the dream team was assembled.

:rolleyes:

[F1boat]

Todt and Luca M, having to deliver the Championship this year are going to settle for nothing less than a ban. If they don't get it through FIA, they will go to outside courts. From what I've seen and heard, I don't think they have enough to get a ban from an outside court. It saddens me to say Ferrari has been whining like a beat dog all season. Although both technologies were initially approved, their "victimized" attitude pertaining to their sliding floor was deplorable compared to Renault's attitude when they were told to remove the mass damper. From a team aspect, I have been a Ferrari fan since first discovering F1 although when a particularly favorite driver appeared on the scene like Clark or Stewart I had my cross-over moments. In the last couple of years Ferrai's straight-faced hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitude has really rubbed me the wrong way.

IF Ferrari gets the 2 year ban on McLaren, I hope that:

McLaren will consider running a CART/CHAMP car team. That series would welcome them and having the McLaren name on board would do much to boost the series.

If McLaren is banned until 2009, I hope it is another 20 years before Ferrari sees another championship.

Seems like the last three years Ferrari has got it in their heads that they are unbeatable and if someone is beating them, they must be cheating. They seem to be forgeting all those lean years before the dream team was assembled.

This is unbelievable. So no problem that McLaren has movable systems on their front spoiler? But BIG problem with Ferrari floor? Is it that simple? Macca - good, Ferrari - bad?
Don't think so. McLaren have probably corrupted the system and will escape punishment.
But they are cheaters and deserve to be banned!
And what if the are, after all, banned. What if FIA has solid evidence. Eh?
Still Macca good?

[jens]

I forgot to mention one more aspect that I feel sorry about... that we probably won't see 24-car-grid in 2008 that F1 fans have been waiting so long for!! Before 2002 there were also high hopes of seeing 24 cars until Prost went into bankruptcy.

But as customer chassises will be allowed next year, maybe someone can still join F1 as 12th team next year if the decision is made quickly? Super Aguri decided to join F1 also in late Autumn in 2005 as far as I recall.

[ioan]

So if I put Ferrari's setup in a Spyker they will start winning races?

Do you think that McLaren is as bad a car as Spyker?

[F1boat]

So if I put Ferrari's setup in a Spyker they will start winning races?

Spyker no, McLaren yes. A solid team could become good with stolen ideas.

[F1boat]

Wow this is like a roller coaster, first they are banned, then it is not certain, then the F1 sites collapse and it is getting on my nerves.

I agree. This is highly insulting from FIA.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

What's a Bubu?

[redson]

Spyker no, McLaren yes. A solid team could become good with stolen ideas.

We are talking about setups, no single car is the same in F1 so I guess the setup that uses Ferrari won't suit McLaren and so on...
Let's see what the FIA has to say about the new evidence but I think this is like a circus

[grassrootsracer]

Their setup?
Their brake balance?

That's no device, but it is the key between winning and losing!

Um no. The cars, while appearing similar to most people, have subtle differences in the suspension geometry, brakes, and general setup (among other things). Having another teams setup is marginally useful, if at all. This is especially so when you are using components from different manufacturers.

[Hondo]

This is unbelievable. So no problem that McLaren has movable systems on their front spoiler? But BIG problem with Ferrari floor? Is it that simple? Macca - good, Ferrari - bad?
Don't think so. McLaren have probably corrupted the system and will escape punishment.
But they are cheaters and deserve to be banned!
And what if the are, after all, banned. What if FIA has solid evidence. Eh?
Still Macca good?

If the evidence was anywhere that solid, you wouldn't still be waiting for the results. If the initial evidence was that solid, you wouldn't have had to have the second hearing. They have to sort through all the "he said, we said, I did, they did, might woulda, shoulda" and try to come up with something resonably fair.

To the Ferrari dogs jumping up and down for blood, will you jump so high and bark so loud if your team receives a package in the mail next season?

[Tazio]

It's a tempest in a tea cup!
A tea cup the size of Texas!

[grantb4]

Does anyone remember what happened to Benetton (Renault) as a result of the launch control software on Michael Schumacher's car? (I'm not talking about the race ban following the black flag incident).

[ioan]

We are talking about setups, no single car is the same in F1 so I guess the setup that uses Ferrari won't suit McLaren and so on...


That's a bit simplistic. Knowing what Ferrari do to use the tires in the best way can be implemented on any of those F1 cars.

[F1boat]

If the evidence was anywhere that solid, you wouldn't still be waiting for the results. If the initial evidence was that solid, you wouldn't have had to have the second hearing. They have to sort through all the "he said, we said, I did, they did, might woulda, shoulda" and try to come up with something resonably fair.

To the Ferrari dogs jumping up and down for blood, will you jump so high and bark so loud if your team receives a package in the mail next season?

PLEASE DO NOT CALL FERRARI FANS "DOGS"!
We don't want blood. We want the team who insulted Ferrari in previous years to pay for its arrogance.

[Daniel]

The FIA have made the wrong decision in rewarding Alonso and Hamilton for driving for a team that was cheating.

[F1boat]

The FIA have made the wrong decision in rewarding Alonso and Hamilton for driving for a team that was cheating.

You mean?

[Hondo]

I wonder if Bernie will have to give refunds to the various tracks if he can't put at least 22 cars on the grid for each race?

[Tazio]

PLEASE DO NOT CALL FERRARI FANS "DOGS"!
We don't want blood. We want the team who insulted Ferrari in previous years to pay for its arrogance.
Ruff !Ruff!

[Firstgear]

Their setup?
Their brake balance?

That's no device, but it is the key between winning and losing!

So Ferrari has a magic formula to determine the perfect brake balance on any car? And the setup they use worked perfectly on the McLaren? In fact it seems to work better this year on the Mac than it does on the Ferrari. Ferrari must have stolen a blueprint of the McLaren to find such an optimum setup for the McLaren.

There's some silly/stupid thing posted here sometimes, but what you've just said surely makes the top 10 list of all time.

[Mark]

Please start a new thread now this is confirmed.

[janneppi]

McLaren holds a press conference 21:15(Finnish time ;) )

[ioan]

If the evidence was anywhere that solid, you wouldn't still be waiting for the results. If the initial evidence was that solid, you wouldn't have had to have the second hearing. They have to sort through all the "he said, we said, I did, they did, might woulda, shoulda" and try to come up with something resonably fair.

If there was no Bernie losing his TV income we would have had a result already.


To the Ferrari dogs jumping up and down for blood, will you jump so high and bark so loud if your team receives a package in the mail next season?

If they don't return it immediately to the team it's coming from and announce the FIA in the same time than yes I would consider them the way I do it with McLaren.

[Garry Walker]

pathetic sentence, what a joke. Alonso and Hamilton drove with cheating cars and they retain their points? JOKE.
I hope both LH and FA crash out from all next 4 races.

shame on FIA for not having the balls to go against what is good for the business. LH and FA are both unworthy cheaters

[Hondo]

If McLaren was banned, wouldn't that also apply to their customer cars?

[jens]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm

ALERT! New News!

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I think the unmitigated bias in here shows why this whole thing is a farce. The rightful thing to do would be to ban both McLaren & Ferrari, the behaviour of both teams has brought the sport in to disrepute.

What is a bubu, anyone?

[rabf1]

So, no real punishment. They keep racing and one of their drivers becomes WDC in a cheaters car.

[N. Jones]

BBC saying - McLaren out for constructors for 07 and fined 100m.

[janneppi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm

ALERT! New News!
It's now confirmed, yes?

[Hondo]

pathetic sentence, what a joke. Alonso and Hamilton drove with cheating cars and they retain their points? JOKE.
I hope both LH and FA crash out from all next 4 races.

shame on FIA for not having the balls to go against what is good for the business. LH and FA are both unworthy cheaters

Todt and Ferrari only need the Constructor's Championship, their drivers can go find their own bones.

[janneppi]

BBC saying - McLaren out for constructors for 07 and fined 100m.
Essentially that's 170 million dollars if you add constructors points money.

[race aficionado]

Waiting for the official thread to appear where it confirms this thread title.

So the Macs were reliable and fast thanks to Ferrari info?

go figure.

What started as the most exciting F1 season is ending as a sad joke.


bummer

:s mokin:

[ioan]

Waiting for the official thread to appear where it confirms this thread title.

So the Macs were reliable and fast thanks to Ferrari info?

go figure.

What started as the most exciting F1 season is ending as a sad joke.


bummer

:s mokin:

Ah! McLaren, Alonso and Hamilton fans should be happy that the initial 2 years expulsion was not agreed on. ;)

[Firstgear]

So they decided to divide the pie.

FIA gets the $$$$$$

Ferrari is handed the WCC

Mac drivers get to fight over the WDC

[N. Jones]

What if it was? WHY were McLaren excluded? That is what I want to know.

[janneppi]

Ah! McLaren, Alonso and Hamilton fans should be happy that the initial 2 years expulsion was not agreed on. ;)
+ people who don't hate McLaren and think a complete ban would have been too harsh. :D

[Garry Walker]

What if it was? WHY were McLaren excluded? That is what I want to know.

Because they cheated.

The joke is unreal, amazing. LH and FA are allowed to win the title with a car that is illegal.
FIA is a bunch of spineless maggots.
LH and FA - Cheaters

[Mark]

Whatever the outcome of this plenty would be unhappy.

[grantb4]

I think McLaren were punished for being in possesion of the Ferrari docs, not for using it.

[Alexamateo]

Well at least I don't have to change my pickem's now! :D

[Firstgear]

I'd like to know how they arrived at this verdict. What was the evidence? Who said/did what?

[grantb4]

I think McLaren were punished for being in possesion of the Ferrari docs, not for using it.

Meaning that the car was and is legal.

[F1boat]

So they decided to divide the pie.

FIA gets the $$$$$$

Ferrari is handed the WCC

Mac drivers get to fight over the WDC

In my opinion a sane decisions. The cheaters are caught and punished. The drivers, who are not to blame, are spared.

[Daika]

Something for everybody i guess. I hope to read the verdict soon.

[GridGirl]

Lets face it, its not the end of the Saga. I can't see McLaren not appealing the fine and such....

[Daniel]

Meaning that the car was and is legal.
Just because you reply to yourself doesn't make your statements fact

[Garry Walker]

In my opinion a sane decisions. The cheaters are caught and punished. The drivers, who are not to blame, are spared.

The drivers GAINED from cheating. This is the most spineless decision that they could have made.

[CarreraGT]

Because they cheated.

The joke is unreal, amazing. LH and FA are allowed to win the title with a car that is illegal.
FIA is a bunch of spineless maggots.
LH and FA - Cheaters


while they will win the championship in an car that is illegal, why are LH and FA cheaters? last i checked, they didn't design or build the car? and is it their fault that the FIA didn't disqualify them from the 2007 WDC? No. that is the FIA's fault.

[Daniel]

In my opinion a sane decisions. The cheaters are caught and punished. The drivers, who are not to blame, are spared.
Yes but they benefitted from the cheating. Whether it was intentional Alonso and Hamilton cheated.

[rabf1]

Who says the drivers have no blame? Alonso at least was apparently briefed on/sent a lot of the secrets.

[Mark]

Mclaren would do well to accept this with good grace.

[Pedalpusher]

So have the FIA actually got proof of something on the McLaren car that is directly related to information in the Ferrari documents?

Or is it that McLaren have simply been punished for having the documents in the first place?

[Spanish]

Actually in Marca (spanish sports journal):

http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/1035185.htm

Translate:

Colin Kolles, director of the Spyker-Ferrari team, communicated the decision at which she had arrived myself after the last negotiations: it fines millionaire to the team (100 million dollars, although discount what they lose not being champions of constructors, with which they would be in fact around 20/30 million), loss of all the points in the classification of constructors and, the only positive, no sanction to the pilots.

[Daniel]

Mclaren would do well to accept this with good grace.
I don't think Ferrari will. McLaren's drivers used what is possibly an illegal car. Just because they didn't know they were cheating doesn't mean they didn't benefit.

[ioan]

Unless the team has been excluded from the WCC for lying to the FIA, Alonso or Hamilton will have to live with the * near their title!

It's fine by me!

[Valve Bounce]

It's reported in Planet F1

[F1boat]

It is fine with me too.

[Mark]

Planet F1 are the most unreliable site ever.

[Spanish]

Unless the team has been excluded from the WCC for lying to the FIA, Alonso or Hamilton will have to live with the * near their title!

It's fine by me!

Not excluded, only lost the points in this year!! no?

[N. Jones]

Unless the team has been excluded from the WCC for lying to the FIA, Alonso or Hamilton will have to live with the * near their title!

It's fine by me!

I see that you sure aren't a McLaren fan.... :hmph:

I want to see what they were fined for. All of this speculation and talk is worthless! I want the FACTS. Nothing less will do.

[ioan]

Not excluded, only lost the points in this year!! no?

Big difference for the fans.

[71minus2]

this is crappy news for the sport. Its the worst thing that could have happened in public and i reckon Ferrari deliberately aired it to the world with the "oh pity us we cant win the championship without cheating boo hoo" line.

Well done to the FIA for swallowing this and i suggest you change your logo for next year, this being a worthy alternative.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a9/Scuderia_Ferrari_Logo.png

Not happy at all.

Richard.

[tsarcasm]

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2007/9/6761.html

F1 says:

McLaren await their fate in Paris hearingIt is the story that has dominated headlines and gripped the paddock, but after seemingly endless twists and turns, the McLaren-Ferrari ‘spy scandal’ is set to be resolved in Paris today, with a second hearing by the FIA’s World Motor Sport Council.

The Council will consider new evidence in the case. Should that evidence prove McLaren made use of confidential Ferrari data in the development of their car, the team COULD face expulsion from the 2007 and 2008 world championships.

Along with senior management from both teams, among those attending the hearing are Ferrari's former technical director Ross Brawn, currently on sabbatical, and drivers' championship leader, Lewis Hamilton.

As the world's media awaits news from Paris, we look back at the timeline of an affair that could yet decide this year’s titles…

[Easy Drifter]

McLaren have been judged (I assume) to be in posession of illegally obtained documents.
The legality of the current car has never been raised as far as any published reports go. Since the 2007 car has not been banned one would have to judge that the car is legal and presumably by the same token does not include any ideas 'stolen' from Ferarri.
The penalties therefore would relate to the fact that McLaren were in posession of material illegally obtained.
The FIA in their infinite wisdom (yeah right) have chosen not to penalize the drivers for actions of the team out of their, the drivers, control.
To me this makes as much sense as any decision by the FIA. :vader:

[ioan]

I see that you sure aren't a McLaren fan.... "hmph:

I want to see what they were fined for. All of this speculation and talk is worthless! I want the FACTS. Nothing less will do.

It's a well known fact that I would support any team in F1 before doing so with McLaren!
RD's hypocrisy is what I dislike most.

[jens]

Uuh. I think I cheered too early. :D Although I can find positive from this decision too.

Well, disqualifying McLaren from WCC is quite elementary. I have mixed feelings about WDC. Surely drivers benefited from the illegal advantage of McLaren, but... on the other hand in some way it would have looked strange to play the WDC into the hands of the already defeated Ferrari drivers. Doubt that they would have felt very happy about their title after the season. And at least Hamilton's season is not totally ruined. My final feeling about the decision

100 million $ is quite harsh, about 1/3 of the whole budget of the team. Might create some problems for McLaren to create a competitive car for 2008.

[Pedalpusher]

I want to see what they were fined for. All of this speculation and talk is worthless! I want the FACTS. Nothing less will do.

Me too. I want proof McLaren have benefitted from information in the documents, not simply being in possession of them.

[Firstgear]

This is the most spineless decision that they could have made.

I wouldn't say spineless, I'd say profitable. The fans will keep watching. Everybody got something, nobody lost everything.

They voted with their wallets.

[Daniel]

this is crappy news for the sport. Its the worst thing that could have happened in public and i reckon Ferrari deliberately aired it to the world with the "oh pity us we cant win the championship without cheating boo hoo" line.

Well done to the FIA for swallowing this and i suggest you change your logo for next year, this being a worthy alternative.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a9/Scuderia_Ferrari_Logo.png

Not happy at all.

Richard.
You blame Ferrari for McLaren cheating?

[Spanish]

Big difference for the fans.

Exact, since it allows to register to LH and FA so that they continue fighting by the WDC

I feel it by Kimi

[kalasend]

My dream punishment:
1) Each drivers get 15 points reduction, ie. McLaren points reduced by 30
2) Each McLaren car will race with 10kg ballast for the remaining races

[Daniel]

Me too. I want proof McLaren have benefitted from information in the documents, not simply being in possession of them.
Have you never seen a trial? After the verdict is out they don't simply run out and tell everyone all the evidence. It will come out in time.

[ioan]

Me too. I want proof McLaren have benefitted from information in the documents, not simply being in possession of them.

I think that it's more likely that McLaren were punished because they lied to the WMSC in July, not because they benefited from the info.

If benefit from the illegally obtained material is the reason than the 2 year expulsion would have been their and their driver's prize.

[Ian McC]

Well I for one would like to know how they came to this decision and based on what evidence. Are they going to produce any documents to say how they reached this result?

The result doesn't make sense, either the Ferrari data was used or it wasn't. Seems to me this verdict doesn't say either way.

Until this is out we have no idea what went on.

[GridGirl]

Ron Dennis is to make a press conference at 19.15 pm, its definately a piece on Ron speak that I want to listen to.

[rabf1]

Plus there will probably be a criminal prosecution in Italy.

[ioan]

I wouldn't say spineless, I'd say profitable. The fans will keep watching. Everybody got something, nobody lost everything.

They voted with their wallets.

That's spineless, and good for idiots.
They had the chance to clean this "sport" up.

[ArrowsFA1]

So who has been found guilty of what exactly? The only site I've seen (BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm)) gives details of the punishment and nothing else at the moment :dozey:

On the basis of that it's a complete and utter FIA fudge. Excluded from the 2007 WCC, a big fine and must be good boys next year.

If Ferrari IP was on the car this year then the punishment does not fit the crime. If that was the case then the whole team should be packed back to Woking for the rest of the year and told not to race until 2008.

If Ferrari IP was not on the car then the punishment does not fit the crime because it should not differ from the original hearing outcome.

As things stand, if Hamilton or Alonso win the WDC this year what value will it have?

[ioan]

You blame Ferrari for McLaren cheating?

What were you expecting?! Some did this from the first day of the spying affair. :s

[Pedalpusher]

We should know more tomorrow.

The full reasons for this decision will be issued on the 14th September 2007.

From Autosport http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62313

[Daniel]

What were you expecting?! Some did this from the first day of the spying affair. :s
Well I'm knew to this whole F1 thing. So what you mean is that if you stab me in the chest and kill me for no reason at all it's my fault and my family should go to jail and you should get a comparitively small fine?

Makes sense!




If you have an IQ of 3

[Spanish]

It is a political decision to close the mouth to Ferrari. Mclaren will sell his participation during the winter to Mercedes, and they will register like a new contender, without problems

[ioan]

Well I for one would like to know how they came to this decision and based on what evidence. Are they going to produce any documents to say how they reached this result?

The result doesn't make sense, either the Ferrari data was used or it wasn't. Seems to me this verdict doesn't say either way.

Until this is out we have no idea what went on.

For once I agree with you.

[Garry Walker]

As things stand, if Hamilton or Alonso win the WDC this year what value will it have?

None, but they couldnt risk the chance of banning precious Lewis, the hope for F1.
Pathetic.

[TopSpeed]

Congratulations Ferrari, new "office" champions...

We have seen which car is best racing...And don't tell me you've never spyed on anyone...or done anything against he rules...just ask Juventus, your neighboards from around the corner... ;)

[jens]

Uuh. What a day. It has been quite tiring to follow all this. :p :

[dwboogityfan]

Its time for Max Mosley and his bunch of Ferrari loving cronies to resign. Why is it every season that Ferrari will accuse their big rivals of doing something wrong - be it Renault, Michelin or McLaren? And why is it the result is always favourable to Ferrari?
Sadly I can see this resulting in McLaren leaving Formula One. I would rather have the likes of McLaren and Williams rather than a political organisation like Ferrari. As Flavio Briatore said last year 'Formula One is no longer a sport.'

[ioan]

As things stand, if Hamilton or Alonso win the WDC this year what value will it have?

Exactly as much value as they deserve! 0

[VkmSpouge]

The FIA should have published the evidence and the basis of their decision to fine McLaren and exclude them from the Constructors' Championship at the same time they made public the punishment.
I'll keep my thoughts to myself on McLaren's punishment until reading how and why the FIA came to this decision.

[Garry Walker]

I see some people are blaming Ferrari for this. the stupidity of people is sometimes shocking.

[rabf1]

Why is it "cheating" anyway for McLaren to accept information voluntarily turned over to them from a Ferrari employee? Its not like McLaren paid for it or sent a "spy" over to Ferrari. If Ferrari can't keep control of/adequately monitor their own employees isn't that their fault?

[TopSpeed]

I see some people are blaming Ferrari for this. the stupidity of people is sometimes shocking.

Truth is Ferrari are always complaining about the rest, and I can remember e lot of times they've made things wrong also...and no punishment..hmmmm

[ioan]

I see some people are blaming Ferrari for this. the stupidity of people is sometimes shocking.

Nothing new there, really!

[airshifter]

So who has been found guilty of what exactly? The only site I've seen (BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm)) gives details of the punishment and nothing else at the moment :dozey:

On the basis of that it's a complete and utter FIA fudge. Excluded from the 2007 WCC, a big fine and must be good boys next year.

If Ferrari IP was on the car this year then the punishment does not fit the crime. If that was the case then the whole team should be packed back to Woking for the rest of the year and told not to race until 2008.

If Ferrari IP was not on the car then the punishment does not fit the crime because it should not differ from the original hearing outcome.

As things stand, if Hamilton or Alonso win the WDC this year what value will it have?

F1.com now has this to say:

McLaren have been excluded from the 2007 constructors’ championship and fined US$100 million following Thursday’s FIA World Motor Sport Council hearing in Paris. Drivers Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton have not been penalized and are free to continue their fight for the drivers' title.

More to follow.




It is a very dark day for F1, no matter who you support. I try not to speculate, but this decision leads me to think that the car itself was not proven to benefit from the Ferrari documents.

If in fact the McLaren car didn't benefit it is the right decision for the WDC standings, but I would like to know for sure. Even more sad is the fact that with or without this information there was a group of at least 4 drivers that were performing well enough to hold that title.

I just hope it all becomes clear enough that whoever gets the WDC can do so knowing it was rightly earned.

[Daniel]

Why is it "cheating" anyway for McLaren to accept information voluntarily turned over to them from a Ferrari employee? Its not like McLaren paid for it or sent a "spy" over to Ferrari. If Ferrari can't keep control of/adequately monitor their own employees isn't that their fault?
The honest thing to do would be to report them.

[markabilly]

No surprize to me....said this would happen almost exactly down to the penny

Yeah right here from old hillbilly his self
read and weep.......
because I am so smart???? hahahahaha :crazy:


Logic? hahahahaha

Justice?? hahahahaha

And the correct answer is none of the above--all I or anyone else had to was simple: just think of the cash for bernie ernei and how to save that while burning out RD....


Please do not bother with the FIA justification, because there will be none worth listening to or reading...as in how can thye say Mac has to show its free of ferrari influence to be able to compete next year, but they can continue to compete this year with cars for FA and LH......hahahaha


It is all about a certain character that showed up to day this morning...and no one wants to kill the cash Hamster...oopps i mean cash cow of bernie ernie

and Rd made enough enemies and the truth about too much of the stuff just leaked out too much

As I said, rest assurred that LH will have his day as the new rookie Brit WDC and that is all the paying public cares about....

[Tonieke]

Exactly as much value as they deserve! 0

To me it has as much value as any other championship..The one who has the most points in the end of the season deserves to be champion ! Nothing more.....Nothing less ! This whole so called " espionage" case has been one big joke from the start anyway so !

[kalasend]

Being an engineer, I have to say that if I got a competitor's product and process details, I can think of many number of ways to make use the data. It can either be substantial (blatant copying of a design) or conceptual (principle of a design applied to my own design). The "making use" can also be in terms of process. The quality check, the design validation, even the organization structure can all be informative. So in terms of industry espionage, owning = using. FIA(or WMC?) not punishing McLaren after the last hearing was a joke on its own. They are just making it right this time, though I feel they did it unwisely.

[ioan]

Why is it "cheating" anyway for McLaren to accept information voluntarily turned over to them from a Ferrari employee? Its not like McLaren paid for it or sent a "spy" over to Ferrari.

It's not like they sent it back either, although the KNEW they should have done it! ;)

[Garry Walker]

Truth is Ferrari are always complaining about the rest, and I can remember e lot of times they've made things wrong also...and no punishment..hmmmm

When has Ferrari used Intellectual property of McLaren or any other team?
Keep amusing me.

[TopSpeed]

Wait Ferrari are still nto champions....

They are 57 points ahead of BMW with 64 left.

So I say, McLaren come out, crash Ferrari's car in each race and let BMW be Champions...

How does that sounds?!

LMAO

[jens]

I'm starting to think that FIA didn't have the courage to ban McLaren from 2007 and 2008. As much as I understand, then such proposal was firstly made, but then the Council started hesitating, thinking that such ban would be too harsh for F1, its existence, competition, etc and therefore later the punishment was relieved.

[markabilly]

The honest thing to do would be to report them.
Yep--failing to report per se makes them an accessory after the fact to the theft...aiding and abetting.....

But it was not really all about that at all, their quest was all about how do we do away with all the bad pr and keep the cash Hamster bringing in all those $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.........

[ioan]

To me it has as much value as any other championship.

You are entitled to your opinion, whether it has value or not.

[kalasend]

I'm starting to think that FIA didn't have the courage to ban McLaren from 2007 and 2008. As much as I understand, then such proposal was firstly made, but then the Council started hesitating, thinking that such ban would be too harsh for F1 and its existence & competition etc and therefore later the punishment was relieved.

No, hell no. No banning please. Just make them run with ballast.

[ioan]

It is all about a certain character that showed up to day this morning...and no one wants to kill the cash Hamster...oopps i mean cash cow of bernie ernie

That's exactly what I thought this morning too, what was he doing there, especially as he left without being asked anything.
Ron brought him there because he knew that his tears won't be enough this time! :D

[TopSpeed]

When has Ferrari used Intellectual property of McLaren or any other team?
Keep amusing me.

"Make wrong things" is not equal to "used Intellectual property".

And you can start by remembering all the "team orders" on MS on RB, and the movable floors at the starts of this season...

Plus, have you seen this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/sol/newsid_6990000/newsid_6993000?redirect=6993084.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&bbram=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1

[Tonieke]

actualy..why was Ferrari not punished in all this ? It was due to someone from there team that all this started no ? It was due to someone from there team that the sport was brought into a bad daylight (him forwarding confidential documents to other team(s)....and thought Fia had a rule for that not ?

[ArrowsFA1]

The big question is did the hearing today hear evidence that proved McLaren used Ferrari IP?

[VkmSpouge]

I do find it amusing how some people think the FIA are biased towards McLaren and other believe the FIA are biased towards Ferrari. Seems to me the only ones the FIA are biased towards is in fact the FIA.

[ioan]

Wait Ferrari are still nto champions....

They are 57 points ahead of BMW with 64 left.

So I say, McLaren come out, crash Ferrari's car in each race and let BMW be Champions...

How does that sounds?!


Stupid, really.

[truefan72]

I can't wait for the complete truth to come out and clearly see hoe Ferrari engineered the biggest smear on McClaren and effectively damaged the F1 sport as awhole in 2007.

1. It has not been shown that McClaren ever used any Ferrari technology in their cars.

2. The whole circumstance arround Nigel Stepney's dismissal from Ferrari after 12 years is still very Shady. As I see it Nigel stpeyned did what hundreds of other engineers have done over the years which is to quietly inquiry about providing their services to other teams while still under contract. It is a virtual musical chairs around the industry. Ferrar cuaght wind of his attempts and uncerimoniously fired him and then to add vindication to their efforts, accused him of stealing Ferrart secrets, which was obviously bogus right fromthe start.

2. As the season wore on and it became apoparantley clear that Ferrari WERE NOT going to win the WDC, they decided to focus on the WCC by any means necessary. So they entered phase 2 of their B.S. theory and targeted all the teams Stepney talked to. Toyota, Honda, Renault, and of course Mcclaren. If Renault were leading the WCC they would have gone after them, likewise to Honda and Toyota. So they wen't after McClaren .

3. Knowing about Nigel S. for many years and his integrity/loyality while at McClaren, including simple common sense, makes it very, very, unlikely that he is gulilty of what he is being accused off. And I'm pretty sure that sometime after the 2007 campaing is over, his issues will be quietly dropped. trust me on that one.

4. Mike Coughlin has always maintained that he never knew where that dossier came from, esp[ecially at his home. In fact Coughlin and Stepyney, were jointly looking to seek greener pastures at another team ( IMO to start a legacy of their own)

5. McClaren has supplied the FIA with full technical drawings of their cars which have proven that nothing has been used from Ferrari.

6. Whatever phone/email communication between two drivers, Alonso and PDLR can only be summized as gossip talk between the two of them, apparently in response to what they heard about thew situation. If that was of any consequence, thenm Alonso would have been in Paris, rather than the "ALL important Thursday's driver's press conference in Spa"

7. This is a simple case of Ferrari's vindictive actions against an unhappy employee spiraling waaay out of control. It is also a case of Ferrari trying to gain a leg up on their chief rival by all sorts of gutter methods. It is also a reiminder of how much sway Ferrari still holds with the FIA ( with the most representatives of any team there) and I am not sure what they threatened the FIA with, after the conclusion of the first hearing. From what I have heard it was that they wouldn't field cars after Turkey if they didn't have their way.

I can tell you with confidence that over the many years of F1 every team spies on every other team, but there has never been a case or somebody stupid enought to blatantly possess documents from another team for any amatuer sleuth to easily uncover in todays world. It is all very circumspect.

As much as people like to bash RD, and I've done so myself over the years, this situation will serve to do more damage to Ferrari and the FIA bias than the "alleged" possesion of documents that have been proven never to have been used and still clearly not defijned as to how they got to Mcclaren. It is no accident that things started happening while Stpeney was on VACATION!

Shame to the FIA, Ferrari for ruining a great season, costing McClaren $100 million, and trying to win in the most unsporting of manners.

[Garry Walker]

"Make wrong things" is not equal to "used Intellectual property".

And you can start by remembering all the "team orders" on MS on RB, and the movable floors at the starts of this season...

Plus, have you seen this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/sol/newsid_6990000/newsid_6993000?redirect=6993084.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&bbram=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1

How were the "team orders" on MS on RB illegal? Do go on, please.
Moveable floors? No, they passed all the tests required, you are really making me laugh here.
What is that link about? Jackie stewart and senile murray walker jerking themselves crazy and saying the penalty is too harsh? If I want to read the opinion of idiots i will go to backstreet boys fan forum.

[Daniel]

actualy..why was Ferrari not punished in all this ? It was due to someone from there team that all this started no ? It was due to someone from there team that the sport was brought into a bad daylight (him forwarding confidential documents to other team(s)....and thought Fia had a rule for that not ?
What are you on about?

[Garry Walker]

I can't wait for the complete truth to come out and clearly see hoe Ferrari engineered the biggest smear on McClaren and effectively damaged the F1 sport as awhole in 2007.

1. It has not been shown that McClaren ever used any Ferrari technology in their cars.

2. The whole circumstance arround Nigel Stepney's dismissal from Ferrari after 12 years is still very Shady. As I see it Nigel stpeyned did what hundreds of other engineers have done over the years which is to quietly inquiry about providing their services to other teams while still under contract. It is a virtual musical chairs around the industry. Ferrar cuaght wind of his attempts and uncerimoniously fired him and then to add vindication to their efforts, accused him of stealing Ferrart secrets, which was obviously bogus right fromthe start.

2. As the season wore on and it became apoparantley clear that Ferrari WERE NOT going to win the WDC, they decided to focus on the WCC by any means necessary. So they entered phase 2 of their B.S. theory and targeted all the teams Stepney talked to. Toyota, Honda, Renault, and of course Mcclaren. If Renault were leading the WCC they would have gone after them, likewise to Honda and Toyota. So they wen't after McClaren .

3. Knowing about Nigel S. for many years and his integrity/loyality while at McClaren, including simple common sense, makes it very, very, unlikely that he is gulilty of what he is being accused off. And I'm pretty sure that sometime after the 2007 campaing is over, his issues will be quietly dropped. trust me on that one.

4. Mike Coughlin has always maintained that he never knew where that dossier came from, esp[ecially at his home. In fact Coughlin and Stepyney, were jointly looking to seek greener pastures at another team ( IMO to start a legacy of their own)

5. McClaren has supplied the FIA with full technical drawings of their cars which have proven that nothing has been used from Ferrari.

6. Whatever phone/email communication between two drivers, Alonso and PDLR can only be summized as gossip talk between the two of them, apparently in response to what they heard about thew situation. If that was of any consequence, thenm Alonso would have been in Paris, rather than the "ALL important Thursday's driver's press conference in Spa"

7. This is a simple case of Ferrari's vindictive actions against an unhappy employee spiraling waaay out of control. It is also a case of Ferrari trying to gain a leg up on their chief rival by all sorts of gutter methods. It is also a reiminder of how much sway Ferrari still holds with the FIA ( with the most representatives of any team there) and I am not sure what they threatened the FIA with, after the conclusion of the first hearing. From what I have heard it was that they wouldn't field cars after Turkey if they didn't have their way.

I can tell you with confidence that over the many years of F1 every team spies on every other team, but there has never been a case or somebody stupid enought to blatantly possess documents from another team for any amatuer sleuth to easily uncover in todays world. It is all very circumspect.

As much as people like to bash RD, and I've done so myself over the years, this situation will serve to do more damage to Ferrari and the FIA bias than the "alleged" possesion of documents that have been proven never to have been used and still clearly not defijned as to how they got to Mcclaren. It is no accident that things started happening while Stpeney was on VACATION!

Shame to the FIA, Ferrari for ruining a great season, costing McClaren $100 million, and trying to win in the most unsporting of manners.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Awesome job dude, that is great stand-up comedy material, it will be a hit.
....wait... you were joking, were you not?

[Daniel]

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Awesome job dude, that is great stand-up comedy material, it will be a hit.
....wait... you were joking, were you not?
Well I for one think the CIA was involved :laugh:

[kalasend]

Wait Ferrari are still nto champions....

They are 57 points ahead of BMW with 64 left.

So I say, McLaren come out, crash Ferrari's car in each race and let BMW be Champions...

How does that sounds?!

LMAO

Yup, that would be a good prologue for McLaren to leave F1 forever and join, say FIA GT from now on. Actually I would love to see McLaren go to the US. Maybe ALMS? Indy?

No, wait, McLaren joins NASCAR would be awesome. And they can hire JPM back.

[TopSpeed]

How were the "team orders" on MS on RB illegal? Do go on, please.
Moveable floors? No, they passed all the tests required, you are really making me laugh here.
What is that link about? Jackie stewart and senile murray walker jerking themselves crazy and saying the penalty is too harsh? If I want to read the opinion of idiots i will go to backstreet boys fan forum.

1) I havent called you idiot, and is your choice to read my opinions...

2) That's Eddie Jordan talking...

A forum is to share opinions, that's what it is about, and I'm completely entitled to have my own...sorry I don't share yours.

[markabilly]

The big question is did the hearing today hear evidence that proved McLaren used Ferrari IP?
Geezaaaasss

I already told you weeks ago what was going to happen and why...proof, evidence, truth, justice got nothing to do it with what the FIA did

(although the evidence will provide us all plenty to fuss over and pick apart for the fun of it)

Frankly in one way i am satisfied I was right, in another way I am extremely disappointed because it just shows me it is all about the entertainment and cash revenue......

[TopSpeed]

Yup, that would be a good prologue for McLaren to leave F1 forever and join, say FIA GT from now on. Actually I would love to see McLaren go to the US. Maybe ALMS? Indy?

No, wait, McLaren joins NASCAR would be awesome. And they can hire JPM back.

That's an extremely good follow up! Hahahahahaha. Plus Nascar doesnt have an actual rulebook...Hahaha

[truefan72]

That's spineless, and good for idiots.
They had the chance to clean this "sport" up.


I'd start in the mirror if you want to "clean the sport up" Ion,
Let us not delve into a very lengthy list of all of Ferrari's misdoings over the last 10 years and the uncommon favorable outcomes they consitently have received from the FIA for actions.

All of which directly attempted (and succeeded) to give them unfair competitive advantages on the track rather than "alleged" possesion of documents.

Trust me if this was the other way round.
a) the tifosi would be pleading that nothing was gained by the posseison
b) it would have been attempted to be resolved secretly and quitely
c)if and when it did go public, the FIA would simply change the standard of burden of proof (and/or the rules) just enough to clear FIArrari

Jeant Todt opf all poeple neing outraged by misdoings...
I really like Kim and Felipe (when he isnt' bitching) but it just reminds me why I'm no fan of Ferrari.

[Tonieke]

What are you on about?

well a Ferrari employee started all this not ?

[Garry Walker]

1) I havent called you idiot, and is your choice to read my opinions...

2) That's Eddie Jordan talking...

A forum is to share opinions, that's what it is about, and I'm completely entitled to have my own...sorry I don't share yours.

I havent called you an idiot either, but I am asking you to provide proof how the teamorders at Austria 2001 and 2002 were ILLEGAL and how the Ferrari floor which passed all the tests this year, was worse than McLaren using Ferraris IP?

Either give me proof of those or stop wasting my time.

[kalasend]

well a Ferrari employee started all this not ?

Don't be too stretched. Truth is, an unhappy Ferrari employee started this thinking it would benefit himself only. Ferrari found out about this and used the circumstances to the fullest. This is business. Isn't F1 about business?

Damn, just makes me love Ferrari as a company more! These people know business.

[Garry Walker]

well a Ferrari employee started all this not ?

Yes, it is Ferraris fault

Amazing

[Ian McC]

The big question is did the hearing today hear evidence that proved McLaren used Ferrari IP?


That is what I want to know.

Alas Arrows you are wasting your time trying to bring intelligent debate to this thread, there is too much mud slinging for anyone to be interested in unimportant details like facts.

[Dzeidzei]

I can't wait for the complete truth to come out and clearly see hoe Ferrari engineered the biggest smear on McClaren and effectively damaged the F1 sport as awhole in 2007.

Shame to the FIA, Ferrari for ruining a great season, costing McClaren $100 million, and trying to win in the most unsporting of manners.

Well, truefan is really true something. Begins with an i.

But there are still many question marks on what should happen with McL now. This is what I think.

Merc should pay the fine and get rid of the McLaren name RD has so nicely sinked in the mud. The team should be called Mercedes, period. They should keep the drivers and the technical staff, but get as far away from RD they can. So Ron, please move on to something else.

McL was fined, but Ferrari wont leave it like that. They want compensation for industrial spionage, which bytheway was clear from the beginning. The big question is who will be paying the compensation (from civil court or courts in different countries) and how big a sum will that be.

Id be suprised if the name McLaren stayed in F1.

[airshifter]

I havent called you an idiot either, but I am asking you to provide proof how the teamorders at Austria 2001 and 2002 were ILLEGAL and how the Ferrari floor which passed all the tests this year, was worse than McLaren using Ferraris IP?

Either give me proof of those or stop wasting my time.


Is there in fact evidence that McLaren used Ferrari's IP? I would assume that if this was the case that the courts would find that the drivers did benefit, and there would be points removed from their WDC standings.

[N. Jones]

Yes, where is the proof? I want to hear it. If they are guilty fine, do what you want. But facts are much better than speculation.

[markabilly]

That is what I want to know.

Alas Arrows you are wasting your time trying to bring intelligent debate to this thread, there is too much mud slinging for anyone to be interested in unimportant details like facts.
Why should they be?

The fia is not interested in anything except justfying their decision when the real reasons will never be put forth as "official"

[airshifter]

That is what I want to know.

Alas Arrows you are wasting your time trying to bring intelligent debate to this thread, there is too much mud slinging for anyone to be interested in unimportant details like facts.


I as well want to see evidence in this regards. My feelings at this point are that there probably is no evidence that McLaren used Ferrari's IP. If there was evidence, it would be unfair to allow Lewis and Fernando to keep all their WDC points, as they would have directly gained from it, regardless of whether they knew about it.

[markabilly]

The Current official statement (looks like the amount of fine is subject to a big offset????

Anyway here it is, (i feel like i am tossing a bone to a pack of hungary dogs):


"The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructors' points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championshiop an the team can score no point for the remainder of the season *.

"Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to 100 million dollar, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction.

"However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points **.

"The WMSC will receive a full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season."

The full reasons for this decision will be issued on the 14th September 2007.

* Points gained by other teams so far this season will not be affected.

** No McLaren representative will be allowed on the podium should a McLaren driver win in any of the remaining races of the 2007 season

[jso1985]

alright let's see...

we are jumping into conclsuions of fairness or not, who should have been banned and who shouldn't when WE DON'T FOR WICH REASON MCLAREN THEY WERE FOUND GUILTY!

If they're were found guilty of posession if illegal documents, then I think the punishment is good enough, I think the drivers should be punished only if it has been proven that Ferrari IP is on this year's McLaren

but what's the point of arguing with blind Ferrari fans... it's like arguing with blind McLaren fans... :dozey: ;)

also with the logic that FA and LH are part of McLaren so they should be punished even if they didn't do anuything, probably Ferrari should be punished also, anyway Stepney was also part of the team ;) , now please note that I don't think Ferrari deserves a punishment at all, just pointing out double standard "logics"

[airshifter]

The Current official statement (looks like the amount of fine is subject to a big offset????

Anyway here it is, (i feel like i am tossing a bone to a pack of hungary dogs):


"The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructors' points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championshiop an the team can score no point for the remainder of the season *.

"Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to 100 million dollar, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction.

"However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points **.

"The WMSC will receive a full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season."

The full reasons for this decision will be issued on the 14th September 2007.

* Points gained by other teams so far this season will not be affected.

** No McLaren representative will be allowed on the podium should a McLaren driver win in any of the remaining races of the 2007 season

That seems fairly clear, but it leaves a big question as to whether Lewis or Fernando would have been penalized if not for the immunity agreement.

[Oli_M]

I am absolutely disgusted at this result.

Its a shame Ferrari can't be proper men and settle things on a track instead of running crying to Uncle Max every time things don't go their own way. Never mind.

So Ferrari couldn't make one of THEIR employees stick to his contract.... this FERRARI employee then gives Ferrari info ... thats GIVES, not sells, GIVES of his OWN FREE WILL, to a rival team. And its that other team that are punished...... yep that sounds like perfect FIA logic.

[mstillhere]

Does anybody know what kind of evidence Ferrari brought in "court" Vs. McLAren?

[Crypt]

Scemantics aside, I think this decision is half-a$$. The drivers should not be allowed to drive the car. I think they should of been excluded from this season, but allowed to race next year for anyone. But then again, this was probably part of the FIA's deal with Fred and Pedro.

Bleh.

[truefan72]

:rotflmao:
Awesome job dude, that is great stand-up comedy material, it will be a hit.
....wait... you were joking, were you not?


Well I for one think the CIA was involved :laugh:

unfortunately the rational and reasoning is a few legal leagues above your head Garry Walker.

no one has yet to explain how said documents arrived at Mike Coughlin's doors
no one is yet to prove that McClaren made any use of the documents

the first hearings they held and the judgement rendered at that time were suffice to quell any rubbish "espoinage" situation was alleged. What has proceeded since then is a farce and P.R. nightmare which only serves to alienate more people from Ferrari, while fueling the lunatic brush fire of irrational and unamiable on these forums.
I'ts back to the ingore list for you.

And to David. maybe they were seeing as theny need some kind of work nowerdays :laugh: or maybe the former KGB... all in jest.

[Daniel]

I am absolutely disgusted at this result.

Its a shame Ferrari can't be proper men and settle things on a track instead of running crying to Uncle Max every time things don't go their own way. Never mind.

So Ferrari couldn't make one of THEIR employees stick to his contract.... this FERRARI employee then gives Ferrari info ... thats GIVES, not sells, GIVES of his OWN FREE WILL, to a rival team. And its that other team that are punished...... yep that sounds like perfect FIA logic.
If the other team had reported him your statement would stand up. But they didn't.

[Garry Walker]

I am absolutely disgusted at this result.

Its a shame Ferrari can't be proper men and settle things on a track instead of running crying to Uncle Max every time things don't go their own way. Never mind.

So Ferrari couldn't make one of THEIR employees stick to his contract.... this FERRARI employee then gives Ferrari info ... thats GIVES, not sells, GIVES of his OWN FREE WILL, to a rival team. And its that other team that are punished...... yep that sounds like perfect FIA logic.

I am speechless. I have rarely seen such a display of intellectual rape.

[Tonieke]

I am absolutely disgusted at this result.

Its a shame Ferrari can't be proper men and settle things on a track instead of running crying to Uncle Max every time things don't go their own way. Never mind.

So Ferrari couldn't make one of THEIR employees stick to his contract.... this FERRARI employee then gives Ferrari info ... thats GIVES, not sells, GIVES of his OWN FREE WILL, to a rival team. And its that other team that are punished...... yep that sounds like perfect FIA logic.

That's also how I am thinking about all this Oli !

[markabilly]

That seems fairly clear, but it leaves a big question as to whether Lewis or Fernando would have been penalized if not for the immunity agreement.


Immunity agreement was a good---indeed brilliant idea--as to how to keep the cash cow intact--people only care about the wdc---only the owners and the elite care about the WCC

Smash out a huge headline about a 100 million dollar fine (which may not be that large anyway) to blow away all the bad PR, and then the immunity 'agreement' keeps Hamster there--who is the driver that Bernie has said repeatedly, that he would "love" to see win the WDC :s mokin:

[Garry Walker]

unfortunately the rational and reasoning is a few legal leagues above your head Garry Walker.

no one has yet to explain how said documents arrived at Mike Coughlin's doors
no one is yet to prove that McClaren made any use of the documents

the first hearings they held and the judgement rendered at that time were suffice to quell any rubbish "espoinage" situation was alleged. What has proceeded since thin is a farce and P.R. nightmare which only serves to alienate more people from Ferrari, while fueling the lunatic brush fire of irrational and unamiable on these forums.
I'ts back to the ingore list for you.

If you want me to debate you properly, then make a post that doesnt make people with IQs over 70 laugh. I have shown many times that I like serious debating, but I dont debate with obvious lunacy, I laugh at it for the amusement of myself and others.

[TopSpeed]

McLaren Press Conference is out:

Here is the link to Autosport news...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62316

[markabilly]

Scemantics aside, I think this decision is half-a$$. The drivers should not be allowed to drive the car. I think they should of been excluded from this season, but allowed to race next year for anyone. But then again, this was probably part of the FIA's deal with Fred and Pedro.

Bleh.

You might wonder why Mac has to pass a special inspection to be able to compete NEXT YEAR, but they are good to go for this year.......weeel duhhh, this silly immunity agreement was thought out well in advance of today's show...and decisison (that was already decided some time ago anyway,)

[Harde]

OK, i see all this like that:
FIA didnt have enough evidence to take down the whole McLaren, including drivers. I mean, IF there are copied parts on the car, why would the FIA let drivers win the WDC with an unfair advantage? A lil bit weird, isnt it? Also, the 2 year penalty wasnt applied either, probably for the reason I mentioned before and another, big and very important reason: MONEY. Instead they fined McLaren a huge amount of money and let them drive again in 2008... an why? Again, money. If they banned McLaren from F1, it would be just like in 2000-2004 again... there are the Ferraris.... *big gap* .... and then are everybody else. So, FIA`s only objective was money

[Tonieke]

If the other team had reported him your statement would stand up. But they didn't.

Um....ok....maybe....But isn't it ferrari's task to keep an eye on there own employee's ? So again..In my eyes..if McL is declared guilty so should Ferrari have been !

[Daniel]

Immunity agreement was a good---indeed brilliant idea--as to how to keep the cash cow intact--people only care about the wdc---only the owners and the elite care about the WCC

Smash out a huge headline about a 100 million dollar fine (which may not be that large anyway) to blow away all the bad PR, and then the immunity 'agreement' keeps Hamster there--who is the driver that Bernie has said repeatedly, that he would "love" to see win the WDC :s mokin:
Very true.

[janneppi]

truefan72 and Garry Walker, before you two find yourselves banned, take a deep breath and lay off the personal stuff, same goes to everyone else here.

[Garry Walker]

truefan72 and Garry Walker, before you two find yourselves banned, take a deep breath and lay off the personal stuff, same goes to everyone else here.

I will do my best, but some of the material written here is really hard to not laugh loudly about. I am only a human, you cant ask the impossible!

[TopSpeed]

Seems some people are just too smart for a forum...

[truefan72]

truefan72 and Garry Walker, before you two find yourselves banned, take a deep breath and lay off the personal stuff, same goes to everyone else here.

Jannepi,

I only responded to what he wrote, and I don't think I resorted to any name calling or character assasination. Either way, he's back on my ignore list and therefore avoid any potential conflict. Fair eneough?

[airshifter]

Um....ok....maybe....But isn't it ferrari's task to keep an eye on there own employee's ? So again..In my eyes..if McL is declared guilty so should Ferrari have been !

I actually agree with this statement to some extent. Though McLaren should have reported the obtained information, they would have had nothing to report had Ferrari protected their IP properly. I actually find it amazing that such unrestricted access to all that information was allowed to any single person.

Such information in it's form should have had very limited access even to those that needed all parts of that information. Had it been properly compartmentalized this would not have taken place.

I do think that McLaren dropped the ball, but that Ferrari gave them the opportunity to drop it.

[Oli_M]

I am speechless. I have rarely seen such a display of intellectual rape.

Please you could care to explain where my reasoning is flawed there? I'm genuinely interested to see other people's opinions on it.

[71minus2]

You blame Ferrari for McLaren cheating?

Nope, i blame Ferrari for airing in public something that should have remained behind closed doors.

As for cheating, Ferrari have had their fair share of questions asked of them - but this isnt the post to raise that old chestnut.

[airshifter]

Please you could care to explain where my reasoning is flawed there? I'm genuinely interested to see other people's opinions on it.

See my post above yours. Ferrari has fault in this as well in my opinion. McLaren has fault no greater in my opinion if they in fact did not use and proved they did not use the IP of Ferrari.

[ArrowsFA1]

Martin Whitmarsh:

"We believe we got the grounds for an appeal. But of course we're going to wait for the findings of the FIA, which we believe are going to be published tomorrow, and we'll consider those carefully before we make that decision."

Ron Dennis:

"I do not accept that we deserve to be penalised or our reputations damaged in this way. Today's evidence given to the FIA by our drivers, engineers and staff clearly demonstrated that we did not use any leaked information to gain a competitive advantage."

"Much has been made in the press and in the hearing today of emails and text messages to and from our drivers. The WMSC received statements from Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton and Pedro de la Rosa stating categorically that no Ferrari information had been used by McLaren, and that they have not passed any confidential data to the team. The entire engineering team, in excess of 140 people, provided statements to the FIA confirming that they had never received or used Ferrari information."

"We have never denied that the information from Ferrari was in the personal possession of one of our employees, in his home. The issue is, was this information used by McLaren? This is not the case and has not been proven to date."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62316

Ferrari statement:


"Ferrari acknowledges the decision of the FIA to sanction Vodafone McLaren Mercedes for its breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code. In light of new evidence, facts and behaviour of an extremely serious nature and grossly prejudicial to the interest of the sport have been further demonstrated. Ferrari is satisfied that the truth has now emerged."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62315

[markabilly]

Well changing to a different subject from personalities--Just how do you decide in less than about a day, the complexities of a case like this with what 22 voters--??
hear the evidence, argue then vote???

Not much stuff is there that really happenned????

Compare it to a court case ..........this was a simple do whatever and run on....

[jens]

If McLaren had been banned from the remaining races, but the drivers' points had been kept, then I guess it would have been fun to see Alonso in Renault and Hamilton in Williams for the rest of the season trying to keep their WDC advantage. :D If Kimi wins all the remaining four races, he would have 114 points. If Hamilton in a Williams finishes fifth behind Ferraris and BMWs for the rest of the year, he would have 108 points. :D But probably the Ferrari would break down at least for once, which would give greater chance for LH/FA.

[DonnieDarco]

I knew they'd bend over backwards to keep Lewis in the championship hunt!! I think if Mac truly are guilty, then the team should have been completely disqualified this year, then back to normal next. And no 50m fine on top, that's plenty punishment enough.

[F1boat]

Nope, i blame Ferrari for airing in public something that should have remained behind closed doors.



No, when Ferrari is hurt, it should fight for its rights.

[Easy Drifter]

Always remember Mad Max is a lawyer and the reason there are no legal actions in Heaven is that there are no lawyers there.

[Daika]

Always remember Mad Max is a lawyer and the reason there are no legal actions in Heaven is that there are no lawyers there.

I can't go to heaven? or should i stop my pursuit for a law degree? Where would i end up? getting a law degree doesn't mean i end up being a lawyer, i can still go to heaven!

[Lalo]

What about Fernando's and Lewis's possibilities of driving in 2008? Maybe Alonso will be able to drive for Ferrari if the cavalino rampante wants..

[Hondo]

This simple.

McLaren is getting banned from the Constructor's Championship because a disgruntled Ferrari employee sent one of McLaren's people confidential Ferrari data and that employee did not immediately notify Ferrari and the FIA.

The McLaren drivers are allowed to compete and keep their points because nobody has been able to demonstrate that any of the information has been used on, or to benefit, any of the McLaren cars. For Ioan's benefit, the cars were not illegal.

The 100 million dollar fine is because Max realizes he and Bernie are killing F1 and now he wants to go into the football business like Bernie and Flav but needs some buy-in capital.

In a nutshell, McLaren is guilty of having an employee not do the proper thing after a Ferrari employee did an improper thing to him or for him.