FIA hearing - Mclaren out of WCC 2007 *merged* [Archive] - Page 4

Viktory

18th September 2007, 20:48

There is absolutely no benefit to test Ferrair's weight distribution on the MP4-22.

Teams have been playing with Nitrogen to fill the tires forever now, so nothing new there.

Granted knowing the Kimi was going pit on lap 18 in Australia could benefit Mclaren it didn't. No Harm.

Obviously none of these really would harm Ferrari, and that's assuming that Mclaren actually did anything with the info.

Flavio said that had he only known the weight distribution of the Ferrari, they would not have been in the position they are now. The weight distribution may not have been able to be used identically, but it would give McLaren indications of how Ferrari get the tyres to work optimally, and aid them in which directions the development for their own car should go.

BDunnell

18th September 2007, 21:13

Flavio said that had he only known the weight distribution of the Ferrari, they would not have been in the position they are now. The weight distribution may not have been able to be used identically, but it would give McLaren indications of how Ferrari get the tyres to work optimally, and aid them in which directions the development for their own car should go.

But this is impossible to prove to any degree that would satisfy the burden of proof involved in any court of law. This is Briatore's opinion.

I cannot help but think that the FIA ought to take on the entire British legal system if it is able to deal with such complex cases as this so quickly and, to its collective mind, fairly and effectively.

jjanicke

18th September 2007, 21:44

Flavio said that had he only known the weight distribution of the Ferrari, they would not have been in the position they are now. The weight distribution may not have been able to be used identically, but it would give McLaren indications of how Ferrari get the tyres to work optimally, and aid them in which directions the development for their own car should go.

I heard Flav mention something about wanting to have had insight into the Ferrari data, however don't recall him ever saying that they wouldn't be in the same position they are today had they known that info.

It seems very far fetched to me to assume that 2 drivers knowing Ferrari's weight distribution would have any benefit to the team.

ioan

18th September 2007, 22:04

It seems very far fetched to me to assume that 2 drivers knowing Ferrari's weight distribution would have any benefit to the team.

I suppose you are a better specialist that those the FIA has. :D

Hondo

18th September 2007, 23:28

Whether it was useful or not, they should not have been accepting it from a Ferrari employee and they damn sure shouldn't have been going back for more information. That was wrong, but not $100 million worth of wrong and loss of all points, especially when the 3 people at McLaren who were actively involved in this remain completely unpunished. At the very least Alonso should also lose his points and he and Pedro should have their super licenses pulled for the rest of the season.

tinchote

19th September 2007, 01:11

I heard Flav mention something about wanting to have had insight into the Ferrari data, however don't recall him ever saying that they wouldn't be in the same position they are today had they known that info.

It seems very far fetched to me to assume that 2 drivers knowing Ferrari's weight distribution would have any benefit to the team.

Yes, of course, the main test-driver has absolutely no influence in the development of the car. And of course, people at McLaren don't share the information they have :rolleyes:

jjanicke

19th September 2007, 04:08

Yes, of course, the main test-driver has absolutely no influence in the development of the car. And of course, people at McLaren don't share the information they have :rolleyes:

Quite the contrary, the main test-driver has absolute influence in the development of the car. However I don't believe that the main test-driver with weight distribution knowledge of a completly different competitors car will be able to benefit at all from knowing said information.

We all knew in 2005&6 that the Renault's were extremely rearward weight biased in comparison to their competitors. I don't recall anybody else trying a rearward weight bias and gaining an advantage.

pino

19th September 2007, 06:48

There is absolutely no benefit to test Ferrair's weight distribution on the MP4-22.

There is there is...look how fast is Mclaren this year, compared to last year ;)

janneppi

19th September 2007, 07:02

What's the current argument topic here? Or are you still talking about the benefit gain thing you people were on about last week?

I lost interest after the whole topic title episode ended. :p :

pino

19th September 2007, 07:31

What's the current argument topic here? Or are you still talking about the benefit gain thing you people were on about last week?

I lost interest after the whole topic title episode ended. :p :

The current argument still is FIA decision, but also why it was or was not too harsh ;)

Daniel

19th September 2007, 07:34

There is there is...look how fast is Mclaren this year, compared to last year ;)
I'd give up Pino. They will just ask you to prove that the weight distribution made the cars go faster :dozey:

pino

19th September 2007, 07:53

I'd give up Pino. They will just ask you to prove that the weight distribution made the cars go faster :dozey:

Never give up Daniel :p :

Seriously, last weekend just before Spa GP, a very famous ital aero-engeneer Silvio Piola ( he also collaborate with Autosport) explained/showed very well on TV, with pics and drawings, how McLaren gained from these information.
But he's italian so I don't expect many to believe/accept this ;)

Daniel

19th September 2007, 08:01

What would an aero engineer know that someone from a forum wouldn't? :p

ioan

19th September 2007, 08:24

What would an aero engineer know that someone from a forum wouldn't? :p

Right! :D

janneppi

19th September 2007, 13:39

The transcript of FIA meeting has been published and can be downloaded from FIA homepage, interesting read, at least the first 30 of 80 pages. :)

Simmo666

19th September 2007, 13:47

It seems the page where they were published (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/September/190907-01.html) has had the links to the documents removed (as of my posting).

Having gotten the September one before it was removed, it seems they realised the problem with the black boxes they used to cover up the sensitive text. The text was still present under the box, and copy-pasting the text into notepad meant you could read all the information they didn't want you to see! Technical details of how the McLaren and Ferrari cars work, Coughlans big salary, etc. Very sloppy work, really!

McLaren and Ferrari probably won't be too happy about that, and the other teams, if they pounced on it, may be rather pleased.

Flat.tyres

19th September 2007, 14:03

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62548

Incredible

Flat.tyres

19th September 2007, 14:10

Simmo

We have the person who stole the dossier not being punished yet, the person that received it not being punished yet, the 2 drivers that had some minuscule knowledge of the dossier given immunity and the one person that has tried to be open and honest in this affair, Ron, getting thrown to the wolves.

So, McLaren get $100m fine and thrown out of the WCC for this small infraction that had no material benefit to McLaren :rolleyes:

How will the FIA sanction themselves for making this privileged and confidential information available to every team.

The FIA is biast, leaks like a sieve, corrupt, inconsistent and incompetent. What more can anyone say :rolleyes:

ArrowsFA1

19th September 2007, 15:33

Interesting to see this from the July hearing:
"We also know - for Mr Todt has stated this in an affidavit that is not before you, but which we have seen - Ferrari made [Coughlan] a job offer in 2006, though he did not accept."

Flat.tyres

19th September 2007, 15:59

I smell the makings of a conspiracy theory Arrows ;)

Coughlan employed by Ferrari as an Argent provoteer.
Agrees to feed info into McLaren but only stuff of little consequence.
Doesn't give any real data out but just some meaningless bumpf to the test driver.
Apparently taken leave of his senses and gets his Wife to go into Prontaprint where the head of the Ferrari supporters club works.
Voilla, the rest is history. :D

Hondo

19th September 2007, 16:26

I couldn't get them to pull up from fia.com.

Tazio

20th September 2007, 04:40

The link below suggests that RD was well kinda maybe slightly less than honest about how Max, and Bernie became aware of the emails! Fred is really a cold blooded piece of work if he had already alerted MM, and or, BE, and was still working an extortion on RD. I thimk it takes a sociopath to try to pull that one off.
There is no quit in Fred
I stated on another thread that Fred would win the wdc at interlagos , or be caried out of there in a straight jacket. I still hold to tha belief

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2172910,00.html

The FIA world motor sport council's investigation into the formula one spying row apparently found that Fernando Alonso informed the sport's commercial rights holder, Bernie Ecclestone, about the presence of incriminating emails on his laptop. Ecclestone passed on the information to the FIA president, Max Mosley, culminating in Mosley's letter to the McLaren drivers that led directly to last Thursday's hearing at which McLaren were fined £50m and lost their constructors' championship points.

Article continues

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Cross-examined during the hearing the McLaren team principal, Ron Dennis, said he himself told Mosley about the drivers' email traffic. But Ferrari's lawyer Nigel Tozzi said: "That is not quite right. You know what Mr Mosley said in his letter dated 6 September 2007. You know what the explanation is: Mr Alonso apparently showed some information to someone else."
He went on: "If Alonso had not shown the documents to Mr Ecclestone, and Mr Ecclestone had not alerted Mr Mosley, who then wrote to the drivers, we would not have found out about these emails. Is that not so?" Dennis claimed not to know how the information came into the public domain: "To this day I do not know how this came to Max's attention, apart from my telling him. Only Bernie may have said that he had seen something and said he would pass it to Max. I do not know what that is. I do know that Bernie said it was in Spanish, but I do not know how this material came to the knowledge of the FIA."

McLaren are unlikely.......Fill in the rest of the story!

janneppi

20th September 2007, 06:34

Tazio
The link below suggests that RD was well kinda maybe slightly less than honest about how Max, and Bernie became aware of the emails! Fred is really a cold blooded piece of work if he had already alerted MM, and or, BE, and was still working an extortion on RD. I thimk it takes a sociopath to try to pull that one off.How could Dennis know about Alonso's talks with Bernard Ecclestone, if neither of them told him about it?
Dennis did inform Max Mosley once he was told by alonso that there exists something, after Alonso's manager came back to Dennis and withdrew his previous announcement, did Dennis inform that to Mosley as well.

It is possible that Alonso played both Dennis and Ecclestone to see what happenes

markabilly

20th September 2007, 19:29

from the transcript at the end of the heaing:

Lewis Hamilton's Counsel:

However, there is a range of sanctions, and you decision will depend on the degree to which the Council has been satisfied that there probably has been an advantage. In my respectful submission, the evidence of an advantage is non-existent. The evidence of a possibility of an advantage is very weak. Against that background, you must start from the top - ejection - work through points, then down to financial penalties. I have not mentioned the latter, but the fact of the matter is that the McLaren business is a large and wealthy one. A very strong point can be made that the public would understand if you considered only a financial penalty without any alteration the championship, considering that, in this context, you cannot go beyond a suspicion that there may have been an advantage

So I guess LH says thanks to his attorney and RD's pocketbook,and being a real team man who thinks FA is not such a team kind of guy....and the pockets of RD can also say thank you for suggesting on behalf of Mac, that we are such a large and wealthy company who can handle a cheap fine of a 100 mill or so........

trumperZ06

20th September 2007, 20:26

How could Dennis know about Alonso's talks with Bernard Ecclestone, if neither of them told him about it?
Dennis did inform Max Mosley once he was told by alonso that there exists something, after Alonso's manager came back to Dennis and withdrew his previous announcement, did Dennis inform that to Mosley as well.

It is possible that Alonso played both Dennis and Ecclestone to see what happenes
;) If, as seems likely, Dennis didn't know about the "e-mails" Alsono tried to use as Black-Mail, isn't it possible that he and top level McLaren management are innocient of all charges ???

IMO... Mad Max and his cronies tried & convited McLaren in a Kangaroo Court... and have thereby ruined Ron Dennis's reputation.

:s mokin:

Bagwan

20th September 2007, 22:41

trumperZ06

20th September 2007, 23:32

You might be right about Dennis being clean in all this , but Trumper , who ruined his reputation ?
Max did wad this mess up pretty good , but don't forget about those who were sending the e-mails and texts , and exchanging 780 page docs .

:rolleyes: A rogue employee... or two, shouldn't cost a company $ 100 Million and... World Wide disgrace !!! There is such a stench over the situation, that I'm beginning to wonder if Max will weather the storm.

;) I've had a few empoyees over the years that haven't worked out for one reason or another. Some you identify quickly... others take a while.

In fact, I can identify with Dennis!

We once hired an engineer at a preminium for his special FAA cerifications... and like McLaren with Alonso... that too was a mistake.

It took us 6 months to realize the problems he was causing... but he didn't last one day after we became aware of the damage.

Fortunitely, Mad Max wasn't in a position to threaten me if I fired him !!!

:s mokin:

spiltmilk

21st September 2007, 08:33

Uncensored WMSC Transcripts all the words that were BLacked/BLOCKED out can be read by copy and pasting them on a blank text file. (text file being they only show the asci with no bold or whatever.) You can read it all.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/khbsvl

For more exploits of MAD MAX MOSELY from the 2005 USA grand prix, to his witchhunt of Mclaren remember he had nothing to bite at in the first hearing no evidence, but what little he had in the second hearing He bite on like a pitbull and extorted his new budget paid for by Mclaren. go to the "Max Mosely must go" thread
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121299

Makes sure you check out the unedited WMSC transcripts/minutes

EDIT not even autosport has the balls to publish the unedited version

wmcot

21st September 2007, 09:18

;) If, as seems likely, Dennis didn't know about the "e-mails" Alsono tried to use as Black-Mail, isn't it possible that he and top level McLaren management are innocient of all charges ???

IMO... Mad Max and his cronies tried & convited McLaren in a Kangaroo Court... and have thereby ruined Ron Dennis's reputation.

:s mokin:
If RD was unaware that confidential information was spreading amongst his team in the form of emails and texting, and he was unaware that Coughlin had obtained the 780 pages from Stepney (until Ferrari pointed it out), and he was unaware of FA going to Bernie who, in turn, went to Max, then RD is not in touch with his company. If nothing else is gained from this whole mess, then we can assume that RD is either:

1. an incompetent leader, unaware of what is happening within his own team, or
2. he is "less than honest" in the whole matter.

Either observation does not cast RD in a favorable light. (But he does have a really neat building and awsome motor home!)

wmcot

21st September 2007, 09:18

wmcot

21st September 2007, 09:19

Sorry, double post

XR8

21st September 2007, 09:32

Ferarri & Mclaren have been the clear leaders and also very even this year. The way I see it Max & Bernie should leak all this so called Ferrarri set up info to all the other teams and then we might just see some racing!

ioan

21st September 2007, 13:46

They call it hypocritical plea, I call it emotional blackmail or even worse.
Simply disgusting:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32876

Tazio

21st September 2007, 15:48

It's official McLaren will not apeal
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32887

N. Jones

21st September 2007, 16:51

The FGP results for all GPs except Hungary and Belgium will be changed to reflect this decision. This will be done sometime this weekend.
Those of you with the Hamilton/BMW/Ferrari combination get ready because you are most likely going to be taking up the top 15 spots!

ioan

21st September 2007, 17:54

It was clear that they won't appeal. Not even Ron is that stupid to bite those who helped him! ;)

wmcot

21st September 2007, 19:01

It was clear that they won't appeal. Not even Ron is that stupid to bite those who helped him! ;)
Maybe RD thinks it's time to put this behind us and move on...if so, that will be one thing I agree with him on!

Then again, perhaps he will focus his efforts on cleaning his house of "rogue" employees and any Ferrari data that might be found on the premises.

jjanicke

21st September 2007, 22:34

clean his house of "rogue" employees = ?

FA
PDR
MC

Other than PDR not sure there's much cleaning left in '08

Juppe

21st September 2007, 23:34

jjanicke

clean his house of "rogue" employees = ?

FA
PDR
MC

Other than PDR not sure there's much cleaning left in '08

When Pedro and Alonso were trying CO2 in tires or Ferrari's weight distribution etc., do you actually believe that they worked alone?

Pedro and Fernando were bare handedly dragging poor mclaren cars to the next century? Fernando handing gas bottle to Pedro who inflated the tires? Boys were adjusting the weight distribution of McLaren all by themselves? Somehow, I have a feeling that quite a few other people were involved.

BDunnell

22nd September 2007, 00:35

Quick question for everyone — do you feel that the FIA investigation was as thorough as it would have been in a court of law? After all, this matter may very well be the subject of civil or criminal trials.

As I said earlier, if the FIA 'jury' is able to come to a verdict so quickly in what is an extremely complicated case, I feel we should hand every court case in the UK over to it. The backlog in the legal system would soon be cleared...

Juppe

22nd September 2007, 00:45

BDunnell,

Of course it was highly superficial investigation and the whole case was decide with a limited amount of knowledge.

But the trials between companies are always like that, no judge will ever have enough knowledge to fully comprehend the technical details involved in these kinds of arguments. Believe me, I've participated as a key witness to a case like that and I must say that no lawayer in that room ever understood what was going on.

McLaren decided not to appeal and that must mean something? I don't think they believe that they've been treated fairly, but they must know that their case is compromised enough so that the outcome could be even worse.

So the result was acceptable to all parties in the end, which is a lot in these kinds of cases.

BDunnell

22nd September 2007, 00:53

Juppe,

I totally understand where you're coming from, but given that so much of the evidence, as stated by Nigel Roebuck in Autosport this week, is utterly circumstantial, this makes the whole thing even more unfair — no matter what the verdict is or should have been. I doubt that Ron Dennis really feels that the end result is fair, and I do certainly do not think that the fact McLaren has decided not to appeal is any way an admission of guilt, just as it isn't in many cases.

I now feel very strongly that the case has been compromised by the FIA's arbitrary methods of meting out punishment and its unwillingness to look too far into the case. I'm sure it would be possible to unravel it given time and a proper hearing, but not in the timescale in which the recent investigation was carried out.

Hondo

22nd September 2007, 03:11

wmcot

22nd September 2007, 05:52

I don't think they had anywhere near enough evidence to come back with a penalty like that and since this has put on Ron's shoulders because of his "rogue" employees, Ferrari at the least ought to have gotten a tongue lashing over their poor security as it was one of their "rogue" employees that, completely unsolicited by McLaren, started the incident.

Not appealing is nothing more than an addmission that:

1. the world court will probably allow it to stand.

2. if the world court overturns it and sends it back, the FIA will come to the same conclusion again but double the penalty for having the audacity to fight them in the first place.

I urge everyone to read the sporting regulations beginning at 151. And 151c is so open ended, it can just about be used for anything. Also, there are no set penalties for infractions so the FIA can make the penalty as tough or as easy as they want each time, for each different case.

In short, under 151c, there is no appeal they could win.
I think Ferrari will take care of their "rogue" employee through the Italian courts. You can't prevent an employee from stealing from the company, but you can make it less appealing to the next one thinking about it.

As for the evidence, of course it's circumstantial. Does anyone actually think that there is any small part of McLaren's car wit "SF" stamped on it?

The point is that McLaren "could" have found out much of the information by traditional methods (observation, photos, recordings, etc.) but with 780 pages of documents and Stepney spilling his guts to your chief designer, why would they waste the time and effort as they claim.

Do you really believe that at the same time Coughlan was talking to Stepney about Ferrari's brake bias setup that McLaren just "happened" to be dusting off a similar project that they used over a decade ago?

Do you believe that the McLaren drivers suddenly came up with using nitrogen in the tires all by themselves?

Do you believe that de la Rosa just had a sudden curiosity out of nowhere about the weight balance on the Ferrari? Do you suppose that he alone talked McLaren into running their simulator with balance settings similar to Ferrari just for fun and at a high cost in terms of dollars and time on his own hunch?

Do you think that McLaren deduced Ferrari's pit strategy precisely on their own and just had to run it by Stepney to confirm it?

Yes, the evidence is circumstantial, but it is overwhelming and blatantly obvious to anyone that is not blinded by Ron Dennis that McLaren were indeed using the data they obtained.

Personally, I think that the FIA should have decided that Ferrari's data helped McLaren by X percent (let's say 20% for example) so 20% of McLaren's constructor points should be awarded to Ferrari and 20% of McLaren's drivers points should be awarded equally to the Ferrari drivers. Seems fair to me!

Hondo

22nd September 2007, 05:57

wmcot, I accept your penalty. It's the most reasonable one I've seen so far.

wmcot

22nd September 2007, 06:08

wmcot, I accept your penalty. It's the most reasonable one I've seen so far.
That's why it would never happen - common sense and the FIA have very little in common! ;)

ArrowsFA1

22nd September 2007, 09:06

Quick question for everyone — do you feel that the FIA investigation was as thorough as it would have been in a court of law?
Absolutely not. How could it be with the two key participants in this case being absent from the hearing?

There was simply far, far too much speculation and supposition during the hearing, something that was unfortunately typical of this whole sorry saga.

Juppe

22nd September 2007, 11:55

I understand the demand for fairness and thorough investigation here, but I also think that it may have been in McLaren's best interest not to look into this matter any deeper.

Thorough investigation could have resulted in such a result that the number of "rogue" empoyees is so high that the investigation could be embarrassing to McLaren and the result a disaster. Then FIA could and probably would give a harsher penalty.

If you think that Pedro and Alonso were freely discussing and probably trying out some of the things they found out, then you probably agree that a number of engineers knew as well. And when more and more people know, then the knowledge spreads like bad case of flu through the company.

Most of the McLaren employees were probably smart enough by themselves that they destroyed any e-mails or discriminating evidence as soon as they became aware that there might be an investigation. At least one of the drivers chose not to get rid of the information with the known consequences.

Bagwan

22nd September 2007, 13:46

Not to imply that the FIA did a good job here , but , did the members of the WMSC not get the evidence to peruse , the Friday before the meeting ?
No link , but I seem to remember this

tinchote

23rd September 2007, 11:43

I think the members here would do a good think to read through the minutes of the 13th Sept meeting.

In my view, McLaren doesn't appeal because if a proper investigation is done, the penalty will have to be exclusion from both championships. Their defense seems to be "show us where we have used any part/information from Ferrari". This exactly the same as an athlete testing positive for doping claiming inocence with the argument "show me where the drug improved my performance". It's just not the way it's done. If an athlete is found with drug in his blood, he's punished no matter what. You don't try to prove/disprove the athlete's intention; you just punish the existence of the drug in the blood. And here is the same: McLaren was in possession of Ferrari's information. Enough. And then, there is written evidence that two of the drivers were using and discussing the information.

tinchote

23rd September 2007, 11:50

tinchote

23rd September 2007, 12:00

BDunnell

23rd September 2007, 13:17

I look forward to the FIA's efforts to stop any information passing from one team to another. This has always gone on and will continue to go on, if not in these precise circumstances.

As for the argument that this case is like drugs being found in an athlete's blood, I view the nearest equivalent to that in motorsport as not being a case like this, but the use of an illegal piece of equipment. This matter, being about the passage of information rather than the use of a substance or item that is banned, is different.

ioan

23rd September 2007, 14:36

Cheating is cheating, no matter what sport we talk about, and should be punished at least with an exclusion from the sport.

Being in possession of a rival teams technical data ( plenty of it in this case ) means that McLaren were breaking the sporting reguations = they were cheating!

It will take some time for die hard McLaren fans to be able to live with tis truth, some will never manage it, but that's life!

For me, I won't hide it, it was a pleasure to have Ron punished for all the mud he threw towards Ferrari (knowing he was not right) in his attempts to clean his teams name.

BDunnell

23rd September 2007, 14:51

Personally, I don't see how anyone who takes any pleasure in this sorry affair can ever claim to be a proper F1 enthusiast.

TMorel

23rd September 2007, 17:17

Ioan I think you're proof you can stay loyal to a team or driver no matter what they do, so I don't think the McLaren fans will have any problem with keeping their loyalty.

All I hope is that we're free of forum members crowing when their teams mortal rival gets caught with the hand in the cookie jar cause we all know if we wait long enough it'll be our beloved that will get caught too.

wmcot

24th September 2007, 18:44

All I hope is that we're free of forum members crowing when their teams mortal rival gets caught with the hand in the cookie jar cause we all know if we wait long enough it'll be our beloved that will get caught too.

Well said. Let's keep this post on hand for the next time a situation arises. (And one will arise sooner or later.)

Flat.tyres

24th September 2007, 19:05

Well said. Let's keep this post on hand for the next time a situation arises. (And one will arise sooner or later.)

:laugh:

You know it buddy ;)

What amazes me is that the data was leaked out by MC. Normally, they sod off toot sweet with the crown Jewles.

McLaren were quite rightly found guilty on the evidence. I have no problem apart from the size of the fine. It is unprecendated and out of proportion. The problem the FIA have is that they will have to be so draconian in future for a similar offence and if not, will bring the sport into disrepute (not that they haven't already).

If you think that Ferrari haven't done similar (well reported) or Renault (I have specific knowledge on Brakes, cooling and an allergation about aero ;) ) or Williams, Toyota, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, then please contact me as I have some prime Luna real estate going cheap.

trumperZ06

24th September 2007, 20:30

For me, I won't hide it, it was a pleasure to have Ron punished for all the mud he threw towards Ferrari (knowing he was not right) in his attempts to clean his teams name.

:p : Hhmmmm.... I guess we should have expected something like this... considering the source !!!

:dozey: Teams (other than Ferrari) are simply stunned by the FIA's penalty to McLaren... given the evidence presented.

Source... Autoweek... current issue !!!

tinchote

24th September 2007, 23:02

The reason why the fine is so big, is that they had to come up with something to cover up with the ridiculous fact that they are keeping FA and LH in the standings. The reasonable penalty would have been complete disqualification, not money. But they all need to keep the business working at full capacity :down:

tinchote

25th September 2007, 00:50

Couple hours after posting, I found a quote of Mosley saying exactly what I meant:

from Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/20058/Axe-still-looming-over-Lewis)
Everything will come out in detail and we will all be surprised,” said Mosley. “I feel the only way to have a fair championship in 2008 would have been to exclude McLaren but that would probably have put them out of business.

trumperZ06

25th September 2007, 01:30

Now here's a Quote summing up Mad Max's feelings in his own words !!!

:p : IMO... Mad Max displayed his personal hatred towards Ron Dennis for all the World to see.

Autoweek's article points out:

Max Mosley said that in his opinion, McLaren got off lightly. If it had been his decision, he said, FA and LH also would have been stripped of their champion points, on the grounds that....

There was a SUSPICION that they had an advantage they should not have had !!!

When the findings were announced, the consensus in the paddock was that it was a lot of fuss about very little!

BUT... the WMSC imposed a fine of a HUNDRED MILLION BUCKS... on suspicion !!!

The FIA also awarded the constructor's championship to Ferrari... which they had NO CHANCE of winning... on their own merits.

A Kangaroo court run by Mad Max... quickly handed down penalties without hard evidence !!!

aw: Mario Theissen commented that he did not want want to finish second in the constructor's championship.. like this.

aw: Was McLaren guilty?

"Mmmm, yeah, I suppose so"... Renault's Pat Symonds replied.

Of what?

"Not very much" !!!

:s mokin:

tinchote

25th September 2007, 02:32

trumperZ06

25th September 2007, 05:56

Come on Trumper, not even you can believe what you are saying. Just for once try to think outside of the box, at the kind of posts that you would be posting if the guilty team were Ferrari.

That MM and RD dislike each other is even stated in the minutes of the proceedings (did you happen to read them?). But that doesn't mean that they were witch-hunting. McLaren chose to defend themselves in July by saying that everything was the isolated action of a rogue employee, and that no one else within the organization knew about the information. One month later we know that the test driver and one of the drivers were asking information about Ferrari from Coughlan. If the team were Ferrari and not McLaren, you would be crying foul big time. So, no hypocrisy, please.

Hhmmm... Wake up Tin, hypocrisy is believing in things you WISH to be true without having evidience... ie. relying on Mosey's... "SUSPICION'S !!! !!!

How is it that you know more than the professional reporters that are on the scene interviewing Mosey as well as Formula 1 team managers !!! Autoweek doesn't have a dog in this hunt. Hell... unlike many other sources... we neither have a driver or a F-1 event to bias their reporting.

I expect this type of nonsense from Ioan... but surely you SHOULD be able to see that the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Re-read Pat Symond's reply to the question...

Autoweek... Was McLaren Guilty ???

Symond's... "Mmmmm... yeah, I suppose so".

Autoweek... of What ???

Symond's... "Not very much" !!!

:p : Gosh Tin... I certainly wouldn't question Pat Symonds knowledge about events in Formula One !!! Also... I wouldn't blindly accept any justification Mosey offers... without substancial evidience to back it up.

wmcot

25th September 2007, 08:32

Hhmmm... Wake up Tin, hypocrisy is believing in things you WISH to be true without having evidience... ie. relying on Mosey's... "SUSPICION'S !!! !!!

How is it that you know more than the professional reporters that are on the scene interviewing Mosey as well as Formula 1 team managers !!! Autoweek doesn't have a dog in this hunt. Hell... unlike many other sources... we neither have a driver or a F-1 event to bias their reporting.

I expect this type of nonsense from Ioan... but surely you SHOULD be able to see that the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Re-read Pat Symond's reply to the question...

Autoweek... Was McLaren Guilty ???

Symond's... "Mmmmm... yeah, I suppose so".

Autoweek... of What ???

Symond's... "Not very much" !!!

:p : Gosh Tin... I certainly wouldn't question Pat Symonds knowledge about events in Formula One !!! Also... I wouldn't blindly accept any justification Mosey offers... without substancial evidience to back it up.

Have you read the entire transcript? There is ample evidence that shows McLaren were using Ferrari's data. One example is the admission from PDLR that they had achieved the "same results as Ferrari." (with brake balance) How did he know this unless he had Ferrari's data to compare? The testimony is full of slip-ups. It ends in the pleading by RD, NH, and LH's attorney to be merciful on them. Not convincing signs of an innocent group of guys!

If you'd like, I'll be happy to PM you a copy of the transcript.

Flat.tyres

25th September 2007, 09:22

Have you read the entire transcript? There is ample evidence that shows McLaren were using Ferrari's data. One example is the admission from PDLR that they had achieved the "same results as Ferrari." (with brake balance) How did he know this unless he had Ferrari's data to compare? The testimony is full of slip-ups. It ends in the pleading by RD, NH, and LH's attorney to be merciful on them. Not convincing signs of an innocent group of guys!

If you'd like, I'll be happy to PM you a copy of the transcript.

So, PdlR confirms that McLaren already have a similar brake set-up to Ferrari, that the gas they use in their tyres would offer no benefit over what McLaren are using and that the weight distribution of the Ferrari was different and not relevant to McLaren.

Obviously, he had some information he shouldn't have had but there is no evidence that it was incorporated or used because it was either irrelevant or already developed.

So, Max and his holy crusade has scored a bloody victory. The problem is it might turn out to be hollow because when Renault or Ferrari or Toyota or Honda get caught with similar data, and I bet there has been some frenetic activity over the last few months to get rid of any evidence and remove any data trail, then the FIA will have to act in a similar manner.

Lets argue that MC gave some data to NS that was discussed with Ross B and discounted as being irrelevant and dropped but the data trail was uncovered by someone that moved to McLaren and told his new team. Impossible?

What would Ferrari do with a $100m fine. Would it impact them more than McLaren Mercedes?

Garry Walker

25th September 2007, 09:36

So, PdlR confirms that McLaren already have a similar brake set-up to Ferrari, that the gas they use in their tyres would offer no benefit over what McLaren are using and that the weight distribution of the Ferrari was different and not relevant to McLaren.

Obviously, he had some information he shouldn't have had but there is no evidence that it was incorporated or used because it was either irrelevant or already developed.

Yeah, it is probably true that directly nothing was copied from Ferrari to McLaren, the cars are far too different for that to work. You can just put the front-wing of Ferrari directly to McLaren, it would end with a disaster.

However, McLaren will have looked at the ideas behind the front wing for exampe, see where the ferrari is getting its downforce from, see if some of those ideas are better than the ones on the mclaren, and look at modifying their wing accordingly. For example, they could look at the 2 main planes, the aspect ratios, the camber etc.

There are just so many things that can be learned from looking at someone else's design, even if you won't clone the whole system, you'll surely use the knowledge gained to drive the future development of your car, be that in a negative ("that looks worse than ours, we'll not go there") or positive ("there is time to be gained there, lets put resources there") sense.

Tazio

25th September 2007, 10:38

Flat.tyres

25th September 2007, 10:49

For whatever you think it's worth. Just a little comic relief.

In a media lunch in London on Monday, FIA president Mosley hit back with rancour as he dismissed Stewart as a "certified halfwit" who dresses oddly.

I don't think much of Max. But I love British humor

http://www.homeofsport.com/f1/news/item.aspx?id=20251

I find it quite distressing that the head of the FIA can go around insulting and disrespecting a former champion and current ambassador of the sport in this way. It is frankly disgusting.

seppefan

25th September 2007, 11:02

From AR1
Mosley convinced McLaren team cheated way to front The McLaren team will be thrown out of the 2008 Formula One championship if a shred of evidence linking them to Ferrari is found on their new car. That was the warning from FIA president Max Mosley, who despite the espionage row which has cost McLaren a £50million fine and exclusion from this year’s constructors’ championship which they looked certain to win, believes the sport has not been damaged.
But Mosley also warned that he believes criminal investigations in Italy into how a 780-page Ferrari dossier went from their chief mechanic Nigel Stepney to McLaren’s chief designer could uncover more wrongdoing.
“Everything will come out in detail and we will all be surprised,” said Mosley. “I feel the only way to have a fair championship in 2008 would have been to exclude McLaren but that would probably have put them out of business.
“It would have been correct to throw Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton out of this year’s drivers’ championship but in the World Motor Sport Council, hearts ruled heads. If there was serious evidence of Ferrari’s influence in any McLaren design, however, we would have to take action.
“We don’t want this to drag on but I don’t feel it has harmed F1. The fans and sponsors who are putting in huge sums of money want to know the sport is honest.”
Ferrari should have been light years ahead of McLaren and all the Michelin shod teams this year based on their experience with Bridgestone tires. They are except for the British McLaren team who cheated their way to equality with Ferrari by copying all their secrets based on the Ferrari secrets fed to them by 'Englishman' Nigel Stepney. Therefore, Mosley is 100% correct, their drivers have used an illegal car and should be excluded from the championship.
++++++++++

Is Mosley in danger of slander. The punishment has been given and surely it is time to move on. I get the impression he is trying to make a Mclaren World Champion in 2007 look cheap.

Tazio

25th September 2007, 11:10

I find it quite distressing that the head of the FIA can go around insulting and disrespecting a former champion and current ambassador of the sport in this way. It is frankly disgusting.
I consider Jackie one of the greatest if not the greatest driver in f-1 period. I followed his career as a lad, To this day I think it's a bit of a miracle he survived it. The most daring driver I've ever seen. As an ambassador for the sport he is a biased blow-hard, and has trivialized his acompliments as an F-! immortal!

Ranger

25th September 2007, 12:25

I find it quite distressing that the head of the FIA can go around insulting and disrespecting a former champion and current ambassador of the sport in this way. It is frankly disgusting.

I agree. But so what. 50 years from now, people will still remember Stewart and Mosley. One will be remembered as a legend and the other will be remembered as a two-faced, overzealous twit. Ain't rocket science to figure out which will be which.

ShiftingGears

25th September 2007, 13:00

"...a certified halfwit"

Now's a good time to enjoy one of life's little ironies, fellas!

ioan

25th September 2007, 13:49

Hhmmm... Wake up Tin, hypocrisy is believing in things you WISH to be true without having evidience... ie. relying on Mosey's... "SUSPICION'S !!! !!!

How is it that you know more than the professional reporters that are on the scene interviewing Mosey as well as Formula 1 team managers !!! Autoweek doesn't have a dog in this hunt. Hell... unlike many other sources... we neither have a driver or a F-1 event to bias their reporting.

I expect this type of nonsense from Ioan... but surely you SHOULD be able to see that the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Re-read Pat Symond's reply to the question...

Autoweek... Was McLaren Guilty ???

Symond's... "Mmmmm... yeah, I suppose so".

Autoweek... of What ???

Symond's... "Not very much" !!!

:p : Gosh Tin... I certainly wouldn't question Pat Symonds knowledge about events in Formula One !!! Also... I wouldn't blindly accept any justification Mosey offers... without substancial evidience to back it up.

Did you read what Briatore said about the matter? Why would Symonds be a better source to sustain your argument?
Because it suits your, well known, anti-Ferrari POV?! ;)

markabilly

25th September 2007, 13:49

I consider Jackie one of the greatest if not the greatest driver in f-1 period. I followed his career as a lad, To this day I think it's a bit of a miracle he survived it. The most daring driver I've ever seen. As an ambassador for the sport he is a biased blow-hard, and has trivialized his acompliments as an F-! immortal!

Probably the only reason that Jackie is not mentioned with the same hush tones of respect reserved for Jimmy and Senna, is the fact that he survived.....and really has never been all that puffed up over his accomplishments.......but then I have always rated Clark and Stewart way ahead of the likes of Senna
As to Mosley he does not know what truth is...... :D :rolleyes:

ioan

25th September 2007, 13:54

Obviously, he had some information he shouldn't have had but there is no evidence that it was incorporated or used because it was either irrelevant or already developed.

Sure it was already developed! Question is when and where? For sure not in Woking and not by McLaren! :rolleyes:

BDunnell

25th September 2007, 13:58

Flat.tyres

25th September 2007, 14:03

Yeah, it is probably true that directly nothing was copied from Ferrari to McLaren, the cars are far too different for that to work. You can just put the front-wing of Ferrari directly to McLaren, it would end with a disaster.

However, McLaren will have looked at the ideas behind the front wing for exampe, see where the ferrari is getting its downforce from, see if some of those ideas are better than the ones on the mclaren, and look at modifying their wing accordingly. For example, they could look at the 2 main planes, the aspect ratios, the camber etc.

There are just so many things that can be learned from looking at someone else's design, even if you won't clone the whole system, you'll surely use the knowledge gained to drive the future development of your car, be that in a negative ("that looks worse than ours, we'll not go there") or positive ("there is time to be gained there, lets put resources there") sense.

There is validity in that but there is no evidence there was widespread, systermatic use of the data outside of the 3 people identified.

When this affair blew up, there was a purge within McLaren to identify the extent of the problem. It seems that PdlR and Alonso had the opportunity to come clean but didn't. If they had of done, this could have been quickly delt with and resolved instead of making a rod for Max to beat Ron with.

Max is also wrong with his allergation that this data is why McLaren can challenge this year. Load of rubbish. McLaren was one of the fastest car last year and could possibly have won the championship if they could have stopped it breaking. It's just more reliable this year.

ioan

25th September 2007, 14:09

ioan

25th September 2007, 14:10

McLaren was one of the fastest car last year and could possibly have won the championship if they could have stopped it breaking. It's just more reliable this year.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Man you are very entertaining!

Flat.tyres

25th September 2007, 14:14

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Man you are very entertaining!

Well, I think they failed to finish in 12 GP. I'm not saying they would have but could have challenged.

markabilly

25th September 2007, 14:27

From AR1
Mosley convinced McLaren team cheated way to front The McLaren team will be thrown out of the 2008 Formula One championship if a shred of evidence linking them to Ferrari is found on their new car. That was the warning from FIA president Max Mosley, who despite the espionage row which has cost McLaren a £50million fine and exclusion from this year’s constructors’ championship which they looked certain to win, believes the sport has not been damaged.
But Mosley also warned that he believes criminal investigations in Italy into how a 780-page Ferrari dossier went from their chief mechanic Nigel Stepney to McLaren’s chief designer could uncover more wrongdoing.
“Everything will come out in detail and we will all be surprised,” said Mosley. “I feel the only way to have a fair championship in 2008 would have been to exclude McLaren but that would probably have put them out of business.
]“It would have been correct to throw Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton out of this year’s drivers’ championship but in the World Motor Sport Council, hearts ruled heads.[/b] If there was serious evidence of Ferrari’s influence in any McLaren design, however, we would have to take action.
“We don’t want this to drag on but I don’t feel it has harmed F1. The fans and sponsors who are putting in huge sums of money want to know the sport is honest.”
Ferrari should have been light years ahead of McLaren and all the Michelin shod teams this year based on their experience with Bridgestone tires. They are except for the British McLaren team who cheated their way to equality with Ferrari by copying all their secrets based on the Ferrari secrets fed to them by 'Englishman' Nigel Stepney. Therefore, Mosley is 100% correct, their drivers have used an illegal car and should be excluded from the championship.
++++++++++

Is Mosley in danger of slander. The punishment has been given and surely it is time to move on. I get the impression he is trying to make a Mclaren World Champion in 2007 look cheap.

That is too funny---it was not hearts that ruled but the old pocketbook

And let us NOT forget, that Max knew about the emails, one source being RD and the other being Bernie....yet already knowing this, he then issues THE LETTERS OF IMMUNITY whci ensured no driver penalties and now go around
saying that the drivers should have sufferred but for the heart overruling the head....yeah right...sure....what a bald face two bit yellow dog liar....but as ole "machebilly" would say: "just sick to the plan...pretty soon now the masses of the general public will forget all about it...and these $$$$$$$$$$$ will continue to come rolling in..."

Flat.tyres

25th September 2007, 14:32

No one was criticizing Stewart's fathers way of dressing, so why criticize Mosley because of his father?! Weird logic you have there.

I also suppose you are far from being German, otherwise you wouldn't use that word with such ease.

His Father was not German or a Nazi (to the best of my knowledge) but a Fascist. Before being a Fascist he was a Socialist and a Fabian while before that he was a Conservative member of parliment :confused:

He was also a womaniser who married for money, cheated on his wife with her sister and step-mother and had Goballs and Hitler to his wedding.

All in all, a confusing and morally bereft meglomanic who manouvered politically and personally in whatever direction suited him, was decitefull and held a grudge.

Now, who does that remind you of?

markabilly

25th September 2007, 14:34

Flat.tyres

25th September 2007, 14:37

That is too funny---it was not hearts that ruled but the old pocketbook

And let us NOT forget, that Max knew about the emails, one source being RD and the other being Bernie....yet already knowing this, he then issues THE LETTERS OF IMMUNITY whci ensured no driver penalties and now go around
saying that the drivers should have sufferred but for the heart overruling the head....yeah right...sure....what a bald face two bit yellow dog liar....but as ole "machebilly" would say: "just sick to the plan...pretty soon now the masses of the general public will forget all about it...and these $$$$$$$$$$$ will continue to come rolling in..."

Well, most people say that the $$$$$ are all about Lewis. Out of the 3 drivers summonsed, LH was the only one that was innocent and would have received no penalty so the immunity letters hardly favoured Lewis.

Max seems intent to support FA because Alonso is an ally against Ron.

ArrowsFA1

25th September 2007, 14:48

Interesting to see the news that Nigel Stepney is to reveal his account (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62710) of this saga in a book next year!

Flat.tyres

25th September 2007, 15:01

Interesting to see the news that Nigel Stepney is to reveal his account (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62710) of this saga in a book next year!

That will open one hell of a can of worms :laugh:

Ferrari fans wont like this. When do you think the character assasanation of Nigel will begin by ioan :laugh:

trumperZ06

25th September 2007, 15:19

Have you read the entire transcript? There is ample evidence that shows McLaren were using Ferrari's data. One example is the admission from PDLR that they had achieved the "same results as Ferrari." (with brake balance) How did he know this unless he had Ferrari's data to compare? The testimony is full of slip-ups. It ends in the pleading by RD, NH, and LH's attorney to be merciful on them. Not convincing signs of an innocent group of guys!

If you'd like, I'll be happy to PM you a copy of the transcript.

:p : Hhmmm... Thanks... I also read the transcript when it first came out.

:dozey: The known guilty parties have so far escaped punishment from the FIA. Those proven to be "directly involved" should have been suspended for a period of time... especially Alonso, PDLR, and any engineer who could be proven to be directly involved.

Blaming the whole McLaren opperation... consisting of some 13000 employees, for a few rogue individual's actions... and the punishment given... seems to be Draconian... when Max's justification is based on... "Suspicion" !!!

And then Max... goes so far as to warn McLaren not to punish Alonso for... Attempted Blackmail !!!

This whole sorry mess and the actions taken by the FIA... is beyond belief !!!

:s mokin:

ArrowsFA1

25th September 2007, 15:22

I find it quite distressing that the head of the FIA can go around insulting and disrespecting a former champion and current ambassador of the sport in this way. It is frankly disgusting.
I agree completely :up: Max said of this whole saga "I don’t feel it has harmed F1" and yet comes up with this kind of rubbish :rolleyes: His comments about Stewart (if accurately reported) are childish, pathetic and completely inappropriate coming from the President of the FIA :down: They do, however, rather reflect the level at which much of this issue has been dealt with.

trumperZ06

25th September 2007, 15:58

I agree completely :up: Max said of this whole saga "I don’t feel it has harmed F1" and yet comes up with this kind of rubbish :rolleyes: His comments about Stewart (if accurately reported) are childish, pathetic and completely inappropriate coming from the President of the FIA :down: They do, however, rather reflect the level at which much of this issue has been dealt with.

;) Looks like Max is beginning to crack under the scrutiny of the press and public officials...

Who now are questioning Max's motivation in severely punishing McLaren...

which is looking more & more like...

A Personal vendetta against Ron Dennis !!!

:s mokin:

Flat.tyres

25th September 2007, 16:21

;) Looks like Max is beginning to crack under the scrutiny of the press and public officials...

Who now are questioning Max's motivation in severely punishing McLaren...

which is looking more & more like...

A Personal vendetta against Ron Dennis !!!

:s mokin:

It was always a personal vendetta.

Max said that if Ron went away, so would all the problems ;)

Was this objective, subjective or vindictive?

There was no point in appealing when the "trial" was more akin to the refereeing in "Escape to Victory" rather than trying to establish facts and act appropiatly.

ioan

25th September 2007, 19:42

You lot have something against max, but at least he says something more than those who are trying to hide everything.
One day we will know why McLaren got away with so little when they should have been thrown out for 2 seasons:

But Mosley thinks that the saga is not yet finished, with more revelations likely to come out in the ongoing civil and criminal court proceedings.

"There are still some great mysteries: was Stepney passing on information for free?" said Mosley. "That's very unlikely. Therefore who paid him and why?"

And when asked what sanctions Stepney and Coughlan faced, Mosley said: "There will be heavy consequences for them in the proceedings in Italy and Great Britain.

"No one will hire them anymore in F1, that's for sure. Ours was a sporting trial. In the ordinary ones astonishing things will come out. Many of them."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62707

BDunnell

25th September 2007, 20:34

No one was criticizing Stewart's fathers way of dressing, so why criticize Mosley because of his father?! Weird logic you have there.

I fear you are missing the point, possibly deliberately (although I suspect not), but never mind.

BDunnell

25th September 2007, 20:35

I agree completely :up: Max said of this whole saga "I don’t feel it has harmed F1" and yet comes up with this kind of rubbish :rolleyes: His comments about Stewart (if accurately reported) are childish, pathetic and completely inappropriate coming from the President of the FIA :down: They do, however, rather reflect the level at which much of this issue has been dealt with.

Exactly — i.e. utterly superficial and more than a little insulting to those people who are actually F1 enthusiasts, rather than partisan 'fans' of one team over another.

BDunnell

25th September 2007, 20:37

Regarding Mosley's comment here — http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62707 — when he wonders whether Stepney was passing on the information for free, if he has any evidence of this, he should come out with it. If he has, why doesn't he? If he doesn't, I don't think it's right for the President of the FIA to make suggestions such as this in public, no matter which team is involved.

Malbec

25th September 2007, 21:35

I'm all for people in public life saying what they think, but there does come a point where such remarks are either unjustified or just plain unpleasant or, in this case, both.

The childish response to Mosley's criticism of the dress sense of someone else would of course be, 'OK, so I dress a bit funny, but at least my father wasn't a Nazi'. But that would be uncalled for.

Max has a past history of making rather snide comments just after a 'victory' like the one over McLaren though.

He has painted this incident to be a one off act of blatant cheating but has opened a bit of a Pandora's box as I believe a few other complaints have gone in from other teams of IP copying around the paddock.

Now he'll have to follow up on those complaints and admit that IP copying is rife or not follow them up and make it look like his McLaren trial was a one off.

After the Honda trial he made it look as if Honda were rather silly for trying such a stupid trick yet looking at the technical details and crosschecking them with the finishing weights of other cars in previous races it was obvious that what Honda had been doing was widespread practice, so much so that Honda initially attempted to appeal the legality of every other car in the paddock post-race at Imola.

JYS is a target because Max has no power over him and he is someone who has a large enough income from his other business interests to not require favours from the FIA or Bernie to get by.

wmcot

26th September 2007, 01:07

I love Ralf's response:

"I think it's only fair that they are not punished," the German said. "The drivers are not really involved in the development of the car."

No we know why Toyota have had a problem improving the car!

jso1985

26th September 2007, 01:18

so Ralf should be punished for giving other teams Toyota's secret info? :p :

wmcot

26th September 2007, 06:47

so Ralf should be punished for giving other teams Toyota's secret info? :p :

Not if it's a secret to Ralf! ;)

ArrowsFA1

26th September 2007, 15:39

Juan with his copy of the 780-page Ferrari file. As an ex-McLaren employee he got a copy as well :p

ioan

26th September 2007, 17:23

Juan with his copy of the 780-page Ferrari file. As an ex-McLaren employee he got a copy as well :p

It looks like an interesting read. Given that JPM takes such a thorough look at it I'd say that it must contain plenty of images. :D

janneppi

26th September 2007, 18:01

Or recipes :D

ioan

26th September 2007, 18:11

Or recipes :D

:laugh: :up:

Garry Walker

26th September 2007, 19:57

There is validity in that but there is no evidence there was widespread, systermatic use of the data outside of the 3 people identified.
I am pretty sure many people inside of McLaren knew about it. Remember, at the time of the july hearing, Ron swore no one at McLaren besides the ones implicated in the trial, had any knowledge. Then more truth came out. I think there were more people within McLaren who had knowledge of the Ferrari dossier and other info.

When this affair blew up, there was a purge within McLaren to identify the extent of the problem.Do you really think McLaren conducted that with vigour. It was probably mostly for show value only, they had no interest in implicating themselves.

It seems that PdlR and Alonso had the opportunity to come clean but didn't. If they had of done, this could have been quickly delt with and resolved instead of making a rod for Max to beat Ron with. There are probably quite many others at McLaren who had the opportunity to come clean, but still havent.

Load of rubbish. McLaren was one of the fastest car last year and could possibly have won the championship if they could have stopped it breaking. It's just more reliable this year.
:rotflmao: Come on, you arent serious there? McLaren was really competitive in only a few races in 2006 (monaco, canada, monza and they were okay at Australia, nürburgring and hockhenheim too. Everywhere else they were nowhere compared to the top 2 teams speedwise.) Things are massively different this year.

BDunnell

26th September 2007, 20:19

Garry Walker

26th September 2007, 20:28

'Pretty sure'? 'Probably'? Must be guilty, then.

Just because I have no proof, does not mean I am not allowed to draw my own conclusions, ones that actually make quite a lot of sense in the context.

trumperZ06

27th September 2007, 01:19

Just because I have no proof, does not mean I am not allowed to draw my own conclusions, ones that actually make quite a lot of sense in the context.

:p : Walker... you & Mad Max are a Suspicious lot !!!

Handing down a Judgement and Penalizing a Company 100 Million dollars usually requires a bit-more than...

"jumping to conclusions" !

Hard Evidience is required...In our Courts of Law...

and Alonso's attempted Blackmail would be considered...

a criminal offence.

:s mokin:

wmcot

27th September 2007, 06:26

Hard Evidience is required...In our Courts of Law...

The thing is that the FIA doesn't have to follow our civil laws. Their rulings are based on the contracts that the teams sign and that basically gives Mosley et al unlimited power. Sometimes that's good, sometimes it's bad.

F1boat

27th September 2007, 07:55

Still Max made the right decision, when he punished the cheaters.

leopard

27th September 2007, 08:04

I read according to JPM that the punishment wasn't harsh enough, FIA should have annulled also McLaren's points driver. It seems he can't forget how bad he had to leave his former team.

Juppe

27th September 2007, 08:50

I read according to JPM that the punishment wasn't harsh enough, FIA should have annulled also McLaren's points driver. It seems he can't forget how bad he had to leave his former team.

I don't think he sounded very bitter about it. He is not alone thinking that McLaren drivers got lucky, for example Jarno and DC think along the same lines.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40790

ArrowsFA1

27th September 2007, 09:10

I read according to JPM that the punishment wasn't harsh enough, FIA should have annulled also McLaren's points driver. It seems he can't forget how bad he had to leave his former team.
I think he shares the general opinion that the punishment made no sense. Why penalise the team and not the drivers when, according to the FIA, they were driving a car that benefitted from Ferrari data :crazy: Why was that? Oh yes, Max decided to give them immunity :dozey:

leopard

27th September 2007, 09:42

I don't think he sounded very bitter about it. He is not alone thinking that McLaren drivers got lucky, for example Jarno and DC think along the same lines.
Do they talk without personal interest? Jarno was Alonso's former teammate and DC was former McLaren driver.

They and JPM are at the same boat, Ralf has the point right :)

ioan

27th September 2007, 10:10

I read according to JPM that the punishment wasn't harsh enough, FIA should have annulled also McLaren's points driver. It seems he can't forget how bad he had to leave his former team.

JPM seems to have a higher sense of justice than most of the people around here and way way more than Bernie (he is the one who changed a total ban for 2 seasons into half a ban and a moderate fine).

FA or LH might win the title but it will be a worthless one.

ioan

27th September 2007, 10:12

Do they talk without personal interest? Jarno was Alonso's former teammate and DC was former McLaren driver.

They and JPM are at the same boat, Ralf has the point right :)

There's 3 to 1, and you chose to go with the 1, because it suits your POV, not because it's right! ;)

leopard

27th September 2007, 10:58

FA or LH might win the title but it will be a worthless one.

because it suits your POV, not because it's right! ;) :p :

BDunnell

27th September 2007, 13:28

JPM seems to have a higher sense of justice than most of the people around here and way way more than Bernie (he is the one who changed a total ban for 2 seasons into half a ban and a moderate fine).

FA or LH might win the title but it will be a worthless one.

You an independent, unbiased observer, are you?

ioan

27th September 2007, 14:51

You an independent, unbiased observer, are you?

No, I'm not, but than I don't even pretend to be one, unlike some others! ;)

jjanicke

27th September 2007, 18:21

I am pretty sure many people inside of McLaren knew about it. Remember, at the time of the july hearing, Ron swore no one at McLaren besides the ones implicated in the trial, had any knowledge. Then more truth came out. I think there were more people within McLaren who had knowledge of the Ferrari dossier and other info.

Do you really think McLaren conducted that with vigour. It was probably mostly for show value only, they had no interest in implicating themselves.

There are probably quite many others at McLaren who had the opportunity to come clean, but still havent.

:rotflmao: Come on, you arent serious there? McLaren was really competitive in only a few races in 2006 (monaco, canada, monza and they were okay at Australia, nürburgring and hockhenheim too. Everywhere else they were nowhere compared to the top 2 teams speedwise.) Things are massively different this year.

Well thanks for all your speculation.

I think he shares the general opinion that the punishment made no sense. Why penalise the team and not the drivers when, according to the FIA, they were driving a car that benefitted from Ferrari data :crazy: Why was that? Oh yes, Max decided to give them immunity :dozey:

That "could have" benefited from Ferrari data. At no point has any athourity said that Mclaren benefited from it.

jjanicke

27th September 2007, 18:23

I think he shares the general opinion that the punishment made no sense. Why penalise the team and not the drivers when, according to the FIA, they were driving a car that benefitted from Ferrari data :crazy: Why was that? Oh yes, Max decided to give them immunity :dozey:

That "could have" benefited from Ferrari data. At no point has any athourity said that Mclaren benefited from it.

BDunnell

27th September 2007, 19:07

That "could have" benefited from Ferrari data. At no point has any athourity said that Mclaren benefited from it.

This is another reason why a more comprehensive investigation, without any immunity being offered to anyone, would have been the only means of getting a fair outcome to this sorry saga — no matter what the end result would have been.

BDunnell

27th September 2007, 19:08

No, I'm not, but than I don't even pretend to be one, unlike some others! ;)

You really don't get the fact that some people are able to look at this objectively, do you? Never mind. One day, maybe.

ioan

27th September 2007, 19:38

You really don't get the fact that some people are able to look at this objectively, do you? Never mind. One day, maybe.

You being one of them? Well, no I don't get it, because it's not true.

BDunnell

27th September 2007, 20:28

You being one of them? Well, no I don't get it, because it's not true.

How do you know?

ioan

28th September 2007, 10:01

How do you know?

Reading your post as per the McLaren trial is a good point to start with.

ioan

28th September 2007, 18:13

BTW Mercedes won't help McLaren to pay the fine.
Even more, they are delimiting themselves from the cheats:

"They are a separate company," Haug told the news agency Sport-Informations-Dienst in Japan. "The punishment is for McLaren."

grantb4

28th September 2007, 21:45

BDunnell

29th September 2007, 00:46

Reading your post as per the McLaren trial is a good point to start with.

So anyone who expresses the slightest doubt about the verdict reached is automatically biased? No, debate and discussion doesn't work like that. In fact, I have said all along that the penalty should either be withdrawal of drivers' points as well as constructors' points or nothing at all if it is to be truly fair, rather than this half-way house situation that has arisen.

BDunnell

29th September 2007, 00:47

So if Mosely is going around suggesting that Stepney was paid for the info (and nice that we have officials tossing unsubstantiated rumours around), why would Ferrari not be thrown out for their part in bringing the sport into disrepute?

Who can say? Once again, the rules suggest that this could be the case. Equally, all sorts of other happenings in F1 over the years — some known about, many not — could very easily fall foul of this rule.

ArrowsFA1

29th September 2007, 07:01

BTW Mercedes won't help McLaren to pay the fine.
Even more, they are delimiting themselves from the cheats:
Given that it is a fact that Mercedes are a separate company, and that the punishment was against McLaren and not Mercedes, what is your point?

On another note, it's interesting to see that the charges of use of technology stolen from Ferrari against Toyota personnel have been dropped (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62809). In this particular case, which is strikingly similar to what we've seen recently, two ex-Ferrari employees were found guilty (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58339) of industrial espionage in an Italian court.

Odd that we heard barely a sqeak from Ferrari about this at the time, and nothing from the FIA, but then I guess Toyota were hardly championship rivals for Ferrari.

wmcot

29th September 2007, 07:43

So if Mosely is going around suggesting that Stepney was paid for the info (and nice that we have officials tossing unsubstantiated rumours around), why would Ferrari not be thrown out for their part in bringing the sport into disrepute?

Simply because Stepney was paid, not Ferrari. All it means is that McLaren were purchasing stolen goods rather than just receiving them. The question would then be (if any of this is true) "Who paid Stepney?" If it is found out that he received a check from McLaren, then you can expect further action against them. Still, I'll wait until there is proof of payment before getting overly excited/concerned...

ioan

29th September 2007, 10:08

Given that it is a fact that Mercedes are a separate company, and that the punishment was against McLaren and not Mercedes, what is your point?

My point is clear, Mercedes do not wish for them to be publicly associated with McLaren being found guilty of cheating.

Question is why are you so nervous about this? Seems to me that you are taking things a bit personally when we discuss McLaren's wrongdoings.

Tazio

4th October 2007, 00:26

Didn't feel like starting a new thread, so I thought I would resurrect this one!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2584585.ece

But Stepney, who is accused of supplying Mike Coughlan, the McLaren chief designer, with a 780-page dossier of Ferrari technical secrets and attempting to sabotage the fuel system on the Ferrari race cars, continued to cause Todt problems by refusing to attend races. “Two or three times I was weak enough to say, ‘OK, he has changed his mind,’ ” Todt said. “But it became one time too many. We could not change our organisation every week, so I said, ‘Finished. He will not come any more.’ ” Todt, who may hand over the running of the Ferrari team to Brawn this winter, then gave Stepney a factory-based role working on improving reliability and procedure. “In this sense I did defend him, it is true, but I was never expecting the guy to lose his head,” Todt said. “He lost his head, that’s all. Unfortunately, sometimes you have people who lose the sense of things and it’s a shame because we all have some personal responsibilities. You should have some limits, some discipline and he did not know how to place limits on himself and the problem is that there is a high price to pay

Comment's??

jjanicke

4th October 2007, 01:43

wmcot

4th October 2007, 07:13

Todt admits (towards the end of the article) that they did spy on other teams radio transmissions. No competetive advantage there, I'm sure!!! ;)

And Ron Dennis admitted the same thing at the last hearing - so you're point is...

Before transmissions were scrambled, everyone in the pitlane listened to everyone else. Open radio broadcasts are free to the public. It would be nice if F1 was as open today as it was then (read as fan-friendly.)

ArrowsFA1

4th October 2007, 09:37

Question is why are you so nervous about this? Seems to me that you are taking things a bit personally when we discuss McLaren's wrongdoings.
ioan, you gave your opinion that Mercedes do not wish to be publicly associated with McLaren. Norbert Haug has clearly said that is not the case.

When asked whether Mercedes-Benz stood by F1 as it did before the verdict, Haug said: "Of course we do. This is not up for discussion. We also stand by our partner McLaren. And we refrain from putting the blame on anybody."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62531

I'm not nervous, or taking things at all personally. I'm just correcting an opinion of yours that you cannot back up :s mokin:

ioan

4th October 2007, 09:55

ioan, you gave your opinion that Mercedes do not wish to be publicly associated with McLaren. Norbert Haug has clearly said that is not the case.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62531

I'm not nervous, or taking things at all personally. I'm just correcting an opinion of yours that you cannot back up :s mokin:

You look at t from your POV, I do from mine: Mercedes won't help McLaren pay the fine, or if they do they deny it publicly, because they don't want the company to be directly linked with paying for cheating.

That's my view of it, and their comment support my POV. I don't say they aren't going to help them or won't stand by them, just that they don't want their shareholders to know that they support unsporting behavior.

Make of it what you wish, but do not take it so personally.

SGWilko

4th October 2007, 09:59

And Ron Dennis admitted the same thing at the last hearing - so you're point is...

That they all do it, up and down the pit lane. The whole thing is an FIA brewed storm in a bone china tea cup....... ;)

BDunnell

4th October 2007, 11:20

Make of it what you wish, but do not take it so personally.

A fine one to talk, if I may say so.

ioan

4th October 2007, 11:29

A fine one to talk, if I may say so.

Well I didn't call him anything. I only commented about McLaren.
So let's not get back to your personal attack a few days ago! ;)

BDunnell

4th October 2007, 11:47

Well I didn't call him anything. I only commented about McLaren.
So let's not get back to your personal attack a few days ago! ;)

This has nothing to do with any personal attack. I merely think your critique of others' views is often utterly baseless, because you don't appear to realise that not everyone approaches these topics from the same position of bias as you. This doesn't make for an awful lot of reasoned arguments as far as I'm concerned.

ArrowsFA1

4th October 2007, 14:36

Make of it what you wish, but do not take it so personally.
How exactly am I taking this personally :crazy: and how is that even relevant to the discussion? Clearly you want to deflect attention away from the fact that you cannot back up your opinion that Mercedes do not wish to be publicly associated with McLaren.

SGWilko

4th October 2007, 14:46

How exactly am I taking this personally :crazy: and how is that even relevant to the discussion? Clearly you want to deflect attention away from the fact that you cannot back up your opinion that Mercedes do not wish to be publicly associated with McLaren.

From now on, let it be known that the new team name shall be.......

Drum roll please...........

Vodafone McLaren Ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Mercedes.......

Ba dum, tish.

I thank you..... ;)

trumperZ06

4th October 2007, 15:05

ioan

4th October 2007, 15:58

;) Hey Ioan,

Mercedes owns ~ 40/50 % of McLaren soooo...

if McLaren pays the fine... why would Mercedes want to contribute...

Twice ???

:s mokin:

Because $100 million is 1/4 of their whole budget for a season and Ron can't pay it from his pocket either.

ioan

4th October 2007, 16:05

How exactly am I taking this personally :crazy: and how is that even relevant to the discussion?

Here's your answer to my initial post:

Given that it is a fact that Mercedes are a separate company, and that the punishment was against McLaren and not Mercedes, what is your point?

You have the interesting part in italics.

Clearly you want to deflect attention away from the fact that you cannot back up your opinion that Mercedes do not wish to be publicly associated with McLaren.

Deflecting from what? From Haug's comments?! His comments back up my opinion, and because you can't or don't want to see that it's your problem not mine!
You could start to back up your opinions too, at least 1 out of 10 would be already something, given that you only post speculation and dribble since McLaren were caught cheating and punished for it.

555-04Q2

4th October 2007, 16:08

From now on, let it be known that the new team name shall be.......

Drum roll please...........

Vodafone McLaren Ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Mercedes.......

Ba dum, tish.

I thank you..... ;)

Actually it should be "Vodafone McLaren Ferrari Mercedes"...

That has a strange ring to it :s tareup:

jens

4th October 2007, 17:25

You seem to discuss about it forever... :p :

In retrospect the penalty looks quite reasonable, but the 100 Million $ fine looks strange as McLaren-Mercedes only has to pay 30 Million $ from its own pocket. 30 M is nothing considering McLaren's budget. 100 M would have already been something... and all that 100 M should be paid from their own pocket, I think.

So in official announcement it has to be said that they are stripped of WCC + fined with 30 M. At the moment it sounds false.

BDunnell

4th October 2007, 17:32

You could start to back up your opinions too, at least 1 out of 10 would be already something, given that you only post speculation and dribble since McLaren were caught cheating and punished for it.

And everything that you post on these topics is entirely un-speculative and reasoned, is it?

One key difference between yourself and Arrows is that he, like many of the rest of us on here, is a proper F1 enthusiast, whereas you seem to gain your enjoyment of the sport from little more than the misfortune of whoever happens to be Ferrari's closest rival of the day.

ioan

4th October 2007, 17:40

And everything that you post on these topics is entirely un-speculative and reasoned, is it?

One key difference between yourself and Arrows is that he, like many of the rest of us on here, is a proper F1 enthusiast, whereas you seem to gain your enjoyment of the sport from little more than the misfortune of whoever happens to be Ferrari's closest rival of the day.

Get of your high horse and tell me who gives you the right to judge me for my opinions?!

You have a personal problem with me? That's your problem because I don't judge you and I don't insult you like you did 2 days ago. That's the difference between me and you.

Hondo

4th October 2007, 19:00

Dear Mr. Stepney,

I have completed reading the letter that you allegedly sent to Max Mosely in regards to the McLaren-Ferrari affair. Based upon that letter, it is my proud duty to inform you that you sir, in my opinion, are a complete idiot.

It is obvious from the decisions you made and the reasons you gave for making those decisions, that Ferrari did the right thing by not promoting you to the position you thought you merited. You appear to be devoid of any of the quailities one needs to make important decisions at the higher level. In your 14 plus years with Ferrari, other issues regarding questionable technology in use by Ferrari have arisen yet you remained silent. It would seem that your interest in running a clean, fair, and honest championship has only become your driving desire since being rejected for the position you sought within the Ferrari organization. Although your newly found, lofty principles of fair play are admirable, I would think, after being brushed off by your co-workers and receiving a rather cool reception by Mr. Whiting, your sense of morality would be so outraged that you would terminate your association with Ferrari immediately. But you did not. Instead, you encourged others to do what you didn't have the courage to do yourself.

In the course of sharing and presenting this information to a competitor for them to take to the FIA, you allowed a member of a competing team to help himself to ever larger quantities of Ferrari documents that you just happened to have with you at the meeting. By your own admission, this man continued to load up on documents while you stood by, protesting like a girl. I could understand if you had tried to stop him and he threatened to thrash you soundly, but you make no mention if any threat being used, so I assume you stood there, looking like an idiot while holding your private parts in your hand.

You have, by your childishly, selfish actions caused a tremendous rift within the Formula 1 community that will take years, if ever to heal. There is absolutely no justification for you doing the things you did, the way you did them.

I hereby remand you to the custody of one Mr. Oily Oaf to be used as a testing medium for his newly installed gas cooker at his principal place of abode. The decision as to whether he broils you face up or face down shall be left to the whims of Mr. Oaf.

Have a nice day,

Fiero

BDunnell

4th October 2007, 19:17

Get of your high horse and tell me who gives you the right to judge me for my opinions?!

You have a personal problem with me? That's your problem because I don't judge you and I don't insult you like you did 2 days ago. That's the difference between me and you.

I am merely pointing out that I consider your views on these matters to be of little value, because you are so blatantly biased in favour of one side and refuse to believe that others who occasionally speak up against this are not as biased as you. I'm rather fed up of going over and over this.

ioan

4th October 2007, 19:20

I don't know if you "Finally pulled" your "head out of the south end of the prancing pony and can see the light." or if this another light hearted thread so I won't yet comment on it.

However I would be happy if it's the former. ;)

markabilly

4th October 2007, 19:20

Dear Mr. Stepney,

I have completed reading the letter that you allegedly sent to Max Mosely in regards to the McLaren-Ferrari affair. Based upon that letter, it is my proud duty to inform you that you sir, in my opinion, are a complete idiot.

It is obvious from the decisions you made and the reasons you gave for making those decisions, that Ferrari did the right thing by not promoting you to the position you thought you merited. You appear to be devoid of any of the quailities one needs to make important decisions at the higher level. In your 14 plus years with Ferrari, other issues regarding questionable technology in use by Ferrari have arisen yet you remained silent. It would seem that your interest in running a clean, fair, and honest championship has only become your driving desire since being rejected for the position you sought within the Ferrari organization. Although your newly found, lofty principles of fair play are admirable, I would think, after being brushed off by your co-workers and receiving a rather cool reception by Mr. Whiting, your sense of morality would be so outraged that you would terminate your association with Ferrari immediately. But you did not. Instead, you encourged others to do what you didn't have the courage to do yourself.

In the course of sharing and presenting this information to a competitor for them to take to the FIA, you allowed a member of a competing team to help himself to ever larger quantities of Ferrari documents that you just happened to have with you at the meeting. By your own admission, this man continued to load up on documents while you stood by, protesting like a girl. I could understand if you had tried to stop him and he threatened to thrash you soundly, but you make no mention if any threat being used, so I assume you stood there, looking like an idiot while holding your private parts in your hand.

You have, by your childishly, selfish actions caused a tremendous rift within the Formula 1 community that will take years, if ever to heal. There is absolutely no justification for you doing the things you did, the way you did them.

I hereby remand you to the custody of one Mr. Oily Oaf to be used as a testing medium for his newly installed gas cooker at his principal place of abode. The decision as to whether broil you face up or face down shall be left to the whims of Mr. Oaf.

Have a nice day,

Fiero

Needs a definite post script:

However, it has been suggested that we offer you complete immunity if you will immediately turn over all email contents showing that you received confidential information from Mac in the courses of your exchanges with Mr Coughlin. However, since you are not in competition for the wdc, and you are certainly NOT the golden boy or in a position to benefit the golden boy, or otherwise enhance the TV and spectator revenue of Bernie for the good of the sport, immunity will not be granted. However, should you so produce such documentation, and bring the sport into disrupte by harming the reputation of a faithful stalwart, who stood with Bernie while the infidel big Mac tried to create a break away series out from under the loving grasp of Bernie, you will wish you had been already roasted, toasted and split from bow to stern. And please stop sprinkling that white powder into my gasoline tank. I know it was you, as I found the same stuff on that letter you sent :D

ioan

4th October 2007, 19:22

I'm rather fed up of going over and over this.

Same here.

BDunnell

4th October 2007, 19:22

BDunnell

4th October 2007, 19:24

Same here.

Honestly, it's nothing personal against you, or the fact you hold a different opinion to mine. As I've said many times before, I have no problem with there being lots of opinions expressed on here. I query the basis of some of them, though.

ioan

4th October 2007, 19:28

Surely you should agree either way?

You're right!

ioan

4th October 2007, 19:28

Needs a definite post script:

However, it has been suggested that we offer you complete immunity if you will immediately turn over all email contents showing that you received confidential information from Mac in the courses of your exchanges with Mr Coughlin. However, since you are not in competition for the wdc, and you are certainly NOT the golden boy or in a position to benefit the golden boy, or otherwise enhance the TV and spectator revenue of Bernie for the good of the sport, immunity will not be granted. However, should you so produce such documentation, and bring the sport into disrupte by harming the reputation of a faithful stalwart, who stood with Bernie while the infidel big Mac tried to create a break away series out from under the loving grasp of Bernie, you will wish you had been already roasted, toasted and split from bow to stern. And please stop sprinkling that white powder into my gasoline tank. I know it was you, as I found the same stuff on that letter you sent :D

Another good one! :up: :rotflmao:

Hondo

4th October 2007, 19:29

Nope ioan, not kidding, Heres the link. Although I still believe the punishment was too harsh and I don't believe Ron Dennis ever tried to hide or conceal anything.

http://www.grandprix.com/

jjanicke

5th October 2007, 00:47

And Ron Dennis admitted the same thing at the last hearing - so you're point is...

Before transmissions were scrambled, everyone in the pitlane listened to everyone else. Open radio broadcasts are free to the public. It would be nice if F1 was as open today as it was then (read as fan-friendly.)

point is: Everybody does it!

jjanicke

5th October 2007, 00:50

You look at t from your POV, I do from mine: Mercedes won't help McLaren pay the fine, or if they do they deny it publicly, because they don't want the company to be directly linked with paying for cheating.

That's my view of it, and their comment support my POV. I don't say they aren't going to help them or won't stand by them, just that they don't want their shareholders to know that they support unsporting behavior.

Make of it what you wish, but do not take it so personally.

So what does that say about Johnny Walker and all the other team partners and sponsors?

I think it simply says Mercedes doesn't feel obligated to help pay the fine. Why should they? Because they are a minority stake holder?

Nope!!! I don't think so!!!!

Because $100 million is 1/4 of their whole budget for a season and Ron can't pay it from his pocket either.

Interesting! Where do you get this info from? last time RD spoke about it he said they wouldn't have a problem funding the payment for this fine. Do you know otherwise?

wmcot

5th October 2007, 08:02

point is: Everybody does it!

Exactly what I was getting at. It's not illegal to listen in on another team's conversations. (Actually, Bernie probably holds the rights to all radio conversations and, for that matter, every word uttered at any time during a GP weekend!) ;)

ioan

5th October 2007, 08:50

I've read that article when it was posted on the "Should Ferrari be banned" thread.
It is a very weird thinking that Stepney has. Maybe he was thinking that he should work for the FIA.

ArrowsFA1

5th October 2007, 08:56

Deflecting from what? From Haug's comments?! His comments back up my opinion, and because you can't or don't want to see that it's your problem not mine!
ioan, you said:

Mercedes won't help McLaren to pay the fine.
Even more, they are delimiting themselves from the cheats
I assume by "delimiting" you meant "distancing"

My response to this was to direct you to a quote from Norbert Haug that makes it clear that Mercedes are not distancing themselves from McLaren:

When asked whether Mercedes-Benz stood by F1 as it did before the verdict, Haug said: "Of course we do. This is not up for discussion. We also stand by our partner McLaren. And we refrain from putting the blame on anybody."
Now can you please explain to me how those comments from Norbert Haug back up your opinion that Mercedes are distancing themselves from McLaren?

You could start to back up your opinions too, at least 1 out of 10 would be already something, given that you only post speculation and dribble since McLaren were caught cheating and punished for it.
My apologies to everyone for continuing this, but I like to think it is possible to have a reasonable discussion. I also think it is reasonable to question an opinion that has clearly been refuted, in this case by Norbert Haug, without resorting to the kind of comments we see here.

jas123f1

5th October 2007, 10:12

Mintexmemory

5th October 2007, 10:33

However it is unbelievable, that a team have to pay 100 000 000 dollar and loose all their construction points, but can keep their point in drivers competition? What’s the logic?
Was the reason why they loos their construction points that there was all the teams loosing money if McLaren can keep their points?
If McLaren is “guilty” then they should be out of all point and if they weren’t “guilty” then they should keep all their points and their money too. I think the people’s opinion is more or less that. You can’t give someone a boot for 100 millions and say (after that doing so) that the competition still is fair. What’s the price for a point? :?:
The logic is that if you take the drivers points away then why would they want to risk their lives in the remaining Grands Prix of the 07 season when they have no hope of competing for WDC. So you no longer have a 'product' for TV consumption, just a Ferrari procession. Not sure whether that sort of behaviour would please advertisers, ticket buyers etc.
Back when F1 was a real sport the FIA could afford to discipline teams and drivers (they never had to, of course), it is now impossible to kill the goose that lays golden eggs, so just strangle it half to death :)

tinchote

5th October 2007, 11:05

tinchote

5th October 2007, 11:25

As I mentioned in another thread, his statements are in open contradictions with Coughlan's. The least conclusion we can draw is that one of them is blatantly lying. And I would tend to choose Stepney, because in the way he paints the story, there is no place for de la Rosa asking MC for info about the Ferrari in March/April.

ArrowsFA1

5th October 2007, 11:35

Ok, maybe to break from the current (pointless) discussion, we can discuss Stepney's letter (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html)?

I'm not sure I believe everything he says. And, in any case, some things are in blatant contradiction with Mike Coughlan's statements.
It is very difficult to know what or who to believe in all of this mess :dozey: However, if we take Stepney's letter at face value there are a number of interesting points:

"I asked at the time, if we had asked the FIA for any clarification on the system which we could do, as defined under Article 2.4 in the Technical Regulations. The response was NO we will go with the system as it is and take any advantage up to the time any team makes noises to the FIA, at the minimum we will have at least 1 race under our belts before any action can be taken....I made it clear to various other top team representatives that for me the car was illegal in a couple of areas."
So, according to Stepney, and in the light of him questioning the legality of Ferrari's system with the team, the decision was taken by Ferrari to "take any advantage" they could.

Given that teams frequently raise technical issues with the FIA to seek clarification it is odd that Ferrari chose not to do this, but instead chose to race with a system that they appear to have known was bordering on illegal, at best.

"I sent Peter an e-mail on the details of the system and laid out my concerns on the Ferrari's front floor system...Peter came back to me a few days later saying it looked very suspicious...Peter informed me about 10 days before the start of the Championship that he had discussed this system with Charlie Whiting...Whiting said he was aware of some system but not to this extent and would look further into the subject at the Australian GP.
So Stepney did approach the FIA, informally, with his concerns.

If McLaren had not asked for clarification of the legality of the Ferrari system would Charlie Whiting still have taken the same action or waited 2 to 3 races or never ?
A question many have asked.

You have to understand that my computer has been confiscated by Ferrari and therefore I cannot supply any documents to back up my statements and only an indication of the dates, but your organization will have copies of the original e-mails I sent regarding my concerns.
Ferrari having his laptop does make it somewhat difficult for Stepney to substantiate his claims!

Mike looked at some of the documents and was obviously interested in them, I said I didn't think it was a good idea that he should be looking at these papers. I was obviously wrong to even have let him have access to them.
His account of the meeting with Coughlan, and the way that Coughlan "obtained" Ferrari documents does all sound rather odd but we know what inferences have been drawn from them and the result of the FIA hearings.

In the light of the pursuit of McLaren, and the penalty imposed on them, it is only right that the FIA undertake an investigation of what Stepney is saying, particularly as he was not at the hearings relating to this case to give evidence.

Whether the FIA will act is another question entirely :dozey:

janneppi

5th October 2007, 11:37

tinchote

5th October 2007, 11:51

I would think both Coughlan and Stepney have their own reasons to why their statements contradict, perhaps advise from a lawyers.
Ferrari people might have easier time believeig Coughlan because it paints a bad image on Stepney and McLaren
McLaren people might have easier time believing Stepney, because it paints a bad image on Ferrari's actions.

If McLaren want to believe Stepney, first they will have to explain how de la Rosa's emails are fake, because they imply that Stepney was giving MC a lot of information way before (and a lot more systematically than) the contacts he mentions in his letter. Not to mention the amount of call/text messages that were interchanged between the two.

tinchote

5th October 2007, 12:00

His account of the meeting with Coughlan, and the way that Coughlan "obtained" Ferrari documents does all sound rather odd but we know what inferences have been drawn from them and the result of the FIA hearings.

In the light of the pursuit of McLaren, and the penalty imposed on them, it is only right that the FIA undertake an investigation of what Stepney is saying, particularly as he was not at the hearings relating to this case to give evidence.

Whether the FIA will act is another question entirely :dozey:

It looks like we are talking about his in three different threads :mark:

Anyway, his statements contradict openly what Coughlan said. More importantly, they are not in agreement with the many calls/text messages that have been mentioned in the Italian court proceedings (and seen by the FIA) nor with the fact that de la Rosa was asking coughlan to obtain information, something that shows a flow of information, something again not mentioned in the letter.

The letter is also in contradiction with the recent reports (I don't recall the sources) that information was flowing both ways.

ArrowsFA1

5th October 2007, 12:32

The letter is also in contradiction with the recent reports (I don't recall the sources) that information was flowing both ways.
That is something Stepney raised a couple of days ago:

"I got information about when they [McLaren] were stopping," Stepney says. "I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car from him [Coughlan]. Ferrari got off very lightly. I was their employee at the time. I was aware of certain stuff they were doing at tests, fuel levels, for example. I knew what fuel level they were running.

"It looks like information flowing only one way. No one has been balancing the argument. No one has asked the question. They were thinking Mike was asking the questions and I was answering them.""
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19720.html

Garry Walker

5th October 2007, 12:50

Stepney has been caught lying many times already in this affair, he has no credibility at all.

ArrowsFA1

5th October 2007, 13:04

Stepney has been caught lying many times already in this affair, he has no credibility at all.
Stepney's evidence has not been tested, either in court or in front of the FIA. Until that happens it is difficult, if not impossible to judge his credibility.

Jean Todt has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62975) "if Ferrari had been [doing anything], after all these controversies, it would have come out". Well Jean, perhaps it is now coming out.

jas123f1

5th October 2007, 13:20

The logic is that if you take the drivers points away then why would they want to risk their lives in the remaining Grands Prix of the 07 season when they have no hope of competing for WDC. So you no longer have a 'product' for TV consumption, just a Ferrari procession. Not sure whether that sort of behaviour would please advertisers, ticket buyers etc.
Back when F1 was a real sport the FIA could afford to discipline teams and drivers (they never had to, of course), it is now impossible to kill the goose that lays golden eggs, so just strangle it half to death :)

Sure, F1 has become only some kind circus there FIA make “rules”, but I’m missing more sportsmanship and fairness. :)

BDunnell

5th October 2007, 13:21

Jean Todt has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62975) "if Ferrari had been [doing anything], after all these controversies, it would have come out". Well Jean, perhaps it is now coming out.

If he seriously believes that the investigation was that thorough, then he is (a) unique and (b) probably misguided.

5th October 2007, 14:07

Stepney's evidence has not been tested, either in court or in front of the FIA. Until that happens it is difficult, if not impossible to judge his credibility.

You are having a laugh!

Stepney's claims have already been discredited........by the boss of Mclaren, in case you'd forgotten or conveniently chosen to forget.

Stepney claimed he had not sent the dossier to Coughlan, remember? Stepney claimed he had not given Mclaren info on ferrari's floor, remember?

First Ron Dennis confirmed that Stepney was the source, and now Stepney himself confirms that Coughlan did have the documents from him.

If you really want to believe that the bloke has any credibility, could you please explain why his previous statement doesn't add up to what he is now saying regarding the info been given to Coughlan?

Back up your claims of Stepney's credibility not been seriously compromised for once.

ArrowsFA1

5th October 2007, 14:20

Stepney's claims have already been discredited...
I said "Stepney's evidence has not been tested, either in court or in front of the FIA." If that happens we will have a better indication of how credible his evidence is.

Dismissing the evidence of a central figure in all of this mess without testing that evidence is hardly fair, reasonable or even credible.

BDunnell

5th October 2007, 14:27

I said "Stepney's evidence has not been tested, either in court or in front of the FIA." If that happens we will have a better indication of how credible his evidence is.

Dismissing the evidence of a central figure in all of this mess without testing that evidence is hardly fair, reasonable or even credible.

I agree. If the legal system worked like that, it would be exceedingly unfair.

5th October 2007, 14:54

I said[I] "Stepney's evidence has not been tested, either in court or in front of the FIA."

But Stepney's credibility has been tested by the FIA.

You are surely not denying that Pedro De La Rosa specifically named him as being the source of the information, are you?

The FIA WMSC saw those emails.

Stepney denied sending the information....but the FIA WMSC saw evidence that he had.

That makes him a man with zero credibility.

Funny how these things are ignored by those who need to ignore them for their arguments sake. Funny how that makes their own arguments less than credible.

BDunnell

5th October 2007, 14:58

But Stepney's credibility has been tested by the FIA.

You are surely not denying that Pedro De La Rosa specifically named him as being the source of the information, are you?

The FIA WMSC saw those emails.

Stepney denied sending the information....but the FIA WMSC saw evidence that he had.

That makes him a man with zero credibility.

Funny how these things are ignored by those who need to ignore them for their arguments sake. Funny how that makes their own arguments less than credible.

I always thought cross-examination was a pre-requisite for a fair trial, and we all know that the FIA investigation was hardly the most thorough ever conducted (look at how quick it was!), no matter what the outcome was.

5th October 2007, 15:25

I always thought cross-examination was a pre-requisite for a fair trial, and we all know that the FIA investigation was hardly the most thorough ever conducted (look at how quick it was!), no matter what the outcome was.

So, that being the rather weak argument being put forth by yourself, and assuming that I was the prosecution lawyer and you the defence, could you please provide the jury with an explanation of your clients contradictory statements regarding Coughlan being in possesion of Ferrari documents?

Stepney has contradicted himself.

That cannot be denied.

Where is the credibility of this man?

ArrowsFA1

5th October 2007, 15:39

But Stepney's credibility has been tested by the FIA.
He was not present at either of the FIA hearings and therefore his evidence, which is what I am talking about, has not been tested by the FIA. A part of it was used, certainly, but not the whole.

Why should the likes of Jean Todt, who said today (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63040) that Stepney "has lost his head", wish to discredit Stepney at every opportunity? He was a highly valued, and experienced, member of a very successful team, but apparently he suddenly "lost his head"? Convenient, and yet incredible.

Stepney's evidence should be examined by the FIA. It would be simple enough to cross reference it with what they already have after all, and if he lacks all credibility then what is there to fear?

5th October 2007, 15:48

He was not present at either of the FIA hearings and therefore his evidence, which is what I am talking about, has not been tested by the FIA. A part of it was used, certainly, but not the whole.

Granted, but the evidence used does not suggest that he is credible.

To still argue that he is a credible witness, based on what has been seen and accepted in the public domain following the WMSC meeting and by Stepney's own contradictory statements, needs further explanation.

Stop hiding behind the one fact you have, that he has yet to face trial, and explain in detail why anybody should accept your argument that the man has credibility?

Or is too inconvenient?

5th October 2007, 16:00

Why should the likes of Jean Todt, who said today (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63040) that Stepney "has lost his head", wish to discredit Stepney at every opportunity? He was a highly valued, and experienced, member of a very successful team, but apparently he suddenly "lost his head"? Convenient, and yet incredible.

You are asking why should Jean Todt wish to discredit Stepney????????????

I cannot believe that you cannot understand why, unless you have been on another planet since April.

Why shouldn't Todt discredit the man who was sacked due to leaking documents & tactics to the opposition, a man who was sacked following a case of serious misconduct?

What's Todt suppose to do?

What Stepney did before he broke the terms of his contract are completely irrelevant. Yes, he was part of Ferrari's success, but that does not excuse deplorable and indefensable conduct.

As for a man in Stepney's position 'losing his head'......It is by no means as incredible as you are trying to make out. People suffer from mental problems induced by stress on a regular basis and make catastrophic decisions based on their state of mind regardless of the position they hold in life or how successful they have been.

Idiotic actions brought about by emotional upheaval is not restricted to those who have never had high levels of success or professional acclaim.

Once again, however, it is noted that you seem to be desperately hoping that Stepney didn't have a break-down or 'lose his head' and that, because Todt has taken the opportunity to discredit him that somehow points to a hidden agenda on the side of Ferrari.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that the simple explanations are far more plausible and therefore far more likely.

5th October 2007, 16:04

Stepney's evidence should be examined by the FIA. It would be simple enough to cross reference it with what they already have after all, and if he lacks all credibility then what is there to fear?

As I have previously stated, the FIA should look into it.

Stepney, along with Coughlan, is due to appear in front of the WMSC at some future date.

That is if he isn't sentenced and imprisoned in Italy before then.

Since I believe that his credibility is holed well below the metaphorical water-line, there is absolutely nothing for me to fear.

So, again I ask, can you show me what credibility Stepney has?

ArrowsFA1

5th October 2007, 16:05

To still argue that he is a credible witness...
That is not what I am discussing here. I am simply making the point that his evidence should be examined by the FIA.

I agree that there are contradictions between what he has said, and what others have said, but that should not prevent an examination of the evidence he has. Until that examination has taken place we have no idea whether that evidence has any credibility or not.

The fact remains that neither Stepney, nor Coughlan, were present at either of the FIA hearings, and yet their actions are central to all the events we are discussing.

ioan

5th October 2007, 16:30

That is not what I am discussing here. I am simply making the point that his evidence should be examined by the FIA.

I agree that there are contradictions between what he has said, and what others have said, but that should not prevent an examination of the evidence he has. Until that examination has taken place we have no idea whether that evidence has any credibility or not.

The fact remains that neither Stepney, nor Coughlan, were present at either of the FIA hearings, and yet their actions are central to all the events we are discussing.

Coughlan gave a sworn affidavit where he detailed everything. Where's the need to have him there?
He acknowledged all he did and he excused himself for the wrongdoings.

Problem is that his affidavit and Stepney's latest comments do no converge.

One or both are lying.

5th October 2007, 16:30

That is not what I am discussing here

To steal a phrase from you......

Convenient, and yet incredible.

5th October 2007, 16:34

but that should not prevent an examination of the evidence he has.

He has said himself he has no evidence.

ArrowsFA1

5th October 2007, 16:34

:laugh: I guess that happens when you don't conduct a discussion on tamburello's terms.

Ah well. The weekend's here :s mokin:

BDunnell

5th October 2007, 16:44

Coughlan gave a sworn affidavit where he detailed everything. Where's the need to have him there?
He acknowledged all he did and he excused himself for the wrongdoings.

Problem is that his affidavit and Stepney's latest comments do no converge.

One or both are lying.

That, therefore, is (one of the reasons) why the matter needs examining in more detail.

BDunnell

5th October 2007, 16:48

As I have previously stated, the FIA should look into it.

Stepney, along with Coughlan, is due to appear in front of the WMSC at some future date.

That is if he isn't sentenced and imprisoned in Italy before then.

Since I believe that his credibility is holed well below the metaphorical water-line, there is absolutely nothing for me to fear.

So, again I ask, can you show me what credibility Stepney has?

My objection to what you're saying lies in the idea that one major wrongdoing automatically makes everything someone says unbelievable and unworthy of being taken seriously. Of course, I understand the point about credibility, but as far as I know most judges don't deem someone to be an unreliable witness until after a first offence.

There is, as you well know, much more to come out about what happened to cause the allegations against Stepney that kicked this whole business off in terms of it reaching public attention. This is not to mitigate against anything else, but merely a statement of fact.

5th October 2007, 17:16

:laugh: I guess that happens when you don't conduct a discussion on tamburello's terms.

Ah well. The weekend's here :s mokin:

Au contraire, I was merely pointing out that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

ioan

5th October 2007, 17:30

That, therefore, is (one of the reasons) why the matter needs examining in more detail.

The 2 legal cases will do it for sure.

tinchote

5th October 2007, 17:41

That is not what I am discussing here. I am simply making the point that his evidence should be examined by the FIA.
'

Arrows, what are you talking about exactly? If I'm not wrong, the letter we are talking about is from August 30th, before the hearing.

Besides, in the hearing there was a lenghty discussion regarding whether the court information from Italy - detailing dates and times of communications Stepney-Coughlan - could be used there, but in any case it was there for anyone to read. After Stepney only mentions a couple of contacts with Coughlan in the letter (heavily contradicting Coughlan and those records in the process), what else was to be discussed about him?

That now, a month after the hearing he comes out and claims that there was more information, is really hard to believe. Particularly when it agrees with the fact that he came out of silence because he is bitter that his publisher backed out. And this is the guy that claimed that he was doing everything "for the good of the sport" :rolleyes:

Other than that, the hearing was about McLaren, not about Stepney and Coughlan.

And, in any case, do you really think that if Coughlan gave information about McLaren to Stepney, McLaren would have done nothing in the hearing? Not a single McLaren owner/employee mentioned anything in the hearing regarding information flowing towards Ferrari.

SGWilko

5th October 2007, 20:59

I've just read Stepney's letter to the FIA.

I really hope all that is written in their is cobblers, because if it is not, I would suggest, simply for the blatant rule bending regards the (and I can hardly believe the next bit) MASS DAMPER floor device, Ferrari are f****d with a very big stick.

All that is now missing from each televised race is Warner Bros cartoon figure telling us "that's not all folks"

I suppose Flavio will be telling us he used to be a woman called Florence......

Sheesh, move over Corrie, F1 is THE soap of 2007.......

wmcot

5th October 2007, 21:10

SGWilko

5th October 2007, 21:29

I wouldn't put too much credibility in Stepney. An accused criminal attempting to "get even" is hardly credible.

As for the floor, that is old news which has been dealt with properly by officials.

Yes, but hold on. Mass Damper? Was that not banned the year before?

I just thought the floor was designed to flex under aero load, not keep the cars aero at optimum. That's pushing the envelope way over the edge of the sticky bit........

ioan

6th October 2007, 20:11

Yes, but hold on. Mass Damper? Was that not banned the year before?

I just thought the floor was designed to flex under aero load, not keep the cars aero at optimum. That's pushing the envelope way over the edge of the sticky bit........

The Mass damper part is just a spin put on it by Stepney to make it look worse.
We could argue that the whole car is a huge mass damper.

ArrowsFA1

7th October 2007, 12:24

To steal a phrase from you......
To take a comment of mine totally out of context more like ;)

Look, Stepney's credibility is questionable, but there seems to be an effort to dismiss anything he has to say entirely when he is at the centre of these events. The use of evidence concerning him was deemed credible enough to use in the FIA hearing after all.

Stepney may be hard to believe, particularly among those who have most to lose if there is any foundation in what he is saying, but the nature of the accusations made by Stepney mean they should, at least, be looked at by the FIA.

With regards to tinchote's point about McLaren doing nothing if information was going to Ferrari, why assume that they knew? They were not aware of emails between their drivers and Coughlan, so why should they be aware of an information exchange between Coughlan & Stepney re: McLaren information?

McLaren do not appear to be interested in prolonging this saga any further and that might explain why they have done nothing. Or, perhaps as there is a court case pending it is not possible for the FIA to intervene at this stage. Who knows?

7th October 2007, 18:21

Look, Stepney's credibility is questionable, but there seems to be an effort to dismiss anything he has to say entirely when he is at the centre of these events. The use of evidence concerning him was deemed credible enough to use in the FIA hearing after all.

Stepney may be hard to believe, particularly among those who have most to lose if there is any foundation in what he is saying, but the nature of the accusations made by Stepney mean they should, at least, be looked at by the FIA.

But what should the FIA look at? Stepney says himself there is no evidence. There are no emails, no dossiers, no other people confirming Stepney's claims.

Sherlock Holmes was an excellent detective, but even he needed a clue!

For sure, if there is something for the FIA to investigate they should and should there then be found to be any foundation to the claims, then Ferrari should be held to account.

But whilst I agree that if there is any evidence it should be investigated, how do you propose that the FIA investigate the claims of a man facing a criminal trial for his actions against his employers when, by his own admission, there is no evidence to support his claims?

markabilly

7th October 2007, 19:17

All that is now missing from each televised race is Warner Bros cartoon figure telling us "that's not all folks"

I suppose Flavio will be telling us he used to be a woman called Florence......

Sheesh, move over Corrie, F1 is THE soap of 2007.......

"Used to be"? Why would anyone think that has changed?? :D

I guess if things really fall apart, and Kimi wins WDC, and immediately everything in terms of revenue starts sliding and crashing cause no likes Kimi no-talk-man enough to throw great gobs of money as Benrie fears--in b's own words, no less---

then an investigation is truly warranted and necessary, but this time both fines and complete stripping of those ill-gotten driver points will occur on kimi amd Mister massa, handing the WDC to the one true brit and savior of F1

Of course that is what everyone would say is really loonie tunes, emananting from a paranoid conspiracy nut...just like the prediction of a 100 million dollar fine, no wcc points but the drivers remain intact could only be such loonie tunes from a nut.......just remember, you heard it FIRST from ole crazy.

So everyone better pray for the one true brit... :D

opps got to go...some cia men are sneaking around in my basement :crazy:

ArrowsFA1

8th October 2007, 08:33

But what should the FIA look at? Stepney says himself there is no evidence.
Stepney has said (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html):

"You have to understand that my computer has been confiscated by Ferrari and therefore I cannot supply any documents to back up my statements and only an indication of the dates, but your organization will have copies of the original e-mails I sent regarding my concerns."
He is not saying there is no evidence, just that Ferrari have confiscated it.

ioan

8th October 2007, 08:42

Stepney has said (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html):

He is not saying there is no evidence, just that Ferrari have confiscated it.

Yeah but that was only about his intial emails to the FIA, not about him receiving data from Mike Coughlan and sharing it with the team.

wmcot

8th October 2007, 09:06

Yeah but that was only about his intial emails to the FIA, not about him receiving data from Mike Coughlan and sharing it with the team.

Maybe Coughlan could back him up as a credible witness??? :)

ArrowsFA1

8th October 2007, 09:19

Yeah but that was only about his intial emails to the FIA, not about him receiving data from Mike Coughlan and sharing it with the team.
The thin end of the wedge? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it is still evidence. Given his accusations, and in the light of the way the FIA responded to other accusations, do you not think it is reasonable to expect the FIA to act in the interests of the sport? After all, we are talking about the possible possesion of McLaren information by a Ferrari employee.

"I got information about when they [McLaren] were stopping," Stepney says. "I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car from him [Coughlan]. Ferrari got off very lightly. I was their employee at the time. I was aware of certain stuff they were doing at tests, fuel levels, for example. I knew what fuel level they were running."
The FIA have already established that they come down hard on a team for that kind of thing.

You often mention double standards ioan, so is it not reasonable to expect the FIA to at least examine this?

Flat.tyres

8th October 2007, 12:24

The thin end of the wedge? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it is still evidence. Given his accusations, and in the light of the way the FIA responded to other accusations, do you not think it is reasonable to expect the FIA to act in the interests of the sport? After all, we are talking about the possible possesion of McLaren information by a Ferrari employee.

The FIA have already established that they come down hard on a team for that kind of thing.

You often mention double standards ioan, so is it not reasonable to expect the FIA to at least examine this?

I have stated that I think it would be better for the sport for closure to be achieved on this matter. There is nothing much that can happen to McLaren and other teams have a lot more to lose.

Saying that, if we were talking about logic then logic demands that the Fia systermatically investigate this very serious allergation. As I understand it, the dossier was never really the issue with the McLaren findings but a few texts and emails were. These emails, as I have maintained all along, were probably flowing both ways and resulted in a $100m fine so if the FIA were fair, they would ask Ferrari to co-operate fully, submit Nigels laptop, allow experts in to examine the exchange server and look at McLarens email logs for that period.

Now, I don't know if they have done this but there has been no press release to the contrary although things have gone very quiet in the last week from Ferrari ;)

SGWilko

8th October 2007, 12:28

I have stated that I think it would be better for the sport for closure to be achieved on this matter. There is nothing much that can happen to McLaren and other teams have a lot more to lose.

Saying that, if we were talking about logic then logic demands that the Fia systermatically investigate this very serious allergation. As I understand it, the dossier was never really the issue with the McLaren findings but a few texts and emails were. These emails, as I have maintained all along, were probably flowing both ways and resulted in a $100m fine so if the FIA were fair, they would ask Ferrari to co-operate fully, submit Nigels laptop, allow experts in to examine the exchange server and look at McLarens email logs for that period.

Now, I don't know if they have done this but there has been no press release to the contrary although things have gone very quiet in the last week from Ferrari ;)

I would have thought a good selection of backup tapes would be needed also, to ensure there has been no selective deleting of data. (I hope they do Brick Level backups and not just the Info Store)

Of course, they might use Lotus Domino........

ArrowsFA1

8th October 2007, 12:39

I have stated that I think it would be better for the sport for closure to be achieved on this matter. There is nothing much that can happen to McLaren and other teams have a lot more to lose.
I agree. McLaren have made clear their wish to move on. Given the nature of Stepney's allegations Ferrari may not want things to go any further. And the FIA appear to have no interest in pursuing the matter further. Therefore I suspect nothing more will be done.

ioan

8th October 2007, 13:59

You often mention double standards ioan, so is it not reasonable to expect the FIA to at least examine this?

I already posted it, several times, that if the FIA has as much evidence as in the McLaren case than they should punish Ferrari too, so there's no double standards in my case.

Please make it clear what exactly should the FIA investigate and where should they start. maybe than we can have a constructive debate about this.

Flat.tyres

8th October 2007, 14:07

I already posted it, several times, that if the FIA has as much evidence as in the McLaren case than they should punish Ferrari too, so there's no double standards in my case.

Please make it clear what exactly should the FIA investigate and where should they start. maybe than we can have a constructive debate about this.

Well, the evidence is that there was a dossier that seems to have been in Coughlans posession for which they were found technically guilty of but not punished as it looked like MC and NS were acting alone on this.

I don't think it has been suggested that anyone at McLaren outside of MC had this dossier but what there was happened to be in the form of Texts and Emails. Supposidly, PdlR asked MC about things like weight distribution and MC texted NS who replied. That is in essence what they were found guilty of in the subsequent hearing and NS is saying that it was a 2 way street as far as transfer of information went but as he doesn't have his Laptop etc, he cannot prove it.

When you talk about "as much evidence" you need to bear in mind that there wasn't an awful lot of evidence at all.

ArrowsFA1

8th October 2007, 14:11

I already posted it, several times, that if the FIA has as much evidence as in the McLaren case than they should punish Ferrari too, so there's no double standards in my case.
Why is "as much" evidence required? Surely, if there any evidence of wrongdoing then it should be looked at. Punishment, if any is required, should be decided on once this has been done.

Please make it clear what exactly should the FIA investigate and where should they start. maybe than we can have a constructive debate about this.
We have been discussing "what exactly" for some time already, but it is the letter Stepney sent to Max Mosley (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html) on the 30th August. In addition Stepney has said (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19720.html) there was a two-way flow of information.

Flat.tyres

8th October 2007, 14:42

Why is "as much" evidence required? Surely, if there any evidence of wrongdoing then it should be looked at. Punishment, if any is required, should be decided on once this has been done.

We have been discussing "what exactly" for some time already, but it is the letter Stepney sent to Max Mosley (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html) on the 30th August. In addition Stepney has said (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19720.html) there was a two-way flow of information.

I hadn't read the Stepney letter.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html

The only bit that doesn't add up is the conversation in the car. I think (opinion) that NS and MC wanted to have that dossier for themselves but when he says that it would be of no use to McLaren, he is correct.

This letter is in the public domain now. It has been sent to Jean and Ron. The question needs to be answered "Why was this not dealt with in Aus"?

NS took his concerns to the FIA and they ignored him. He blew the whistle as he should of done and it was swept under the carpet. It wasn't until he prompted MC to do the same that Charlie had to take it seriously and change the testing process.

The question has to be answered by the FIA. WHY NOT!!!

8th October 2007, 14:47

The thin end of the wedge? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it is still evidence. Given his accusations, and in the light of the way the FIA responded to other accusations, do you not think it is reasonable to expect the FIA to act in the interests of the sport?

Have you considered that by not investigating the claims of a desperate and discredited man accused of leaking info to a rival and of sabotage, the FIA are acting in the interests of the sport?

Flat.tyres

8th October 2007, 15:03

Have you considered that by not investigating the claims of a desperate and discredited man accused of leaking info to a rival and of sabotage, the FIA are acting in the interests of the sport?

Until it has been decided that is the case, then I would have thought they were duty bound to look into the matter. Wouldn't you.

After all, if MC said that he had sent a copy of the dossier to RD but didn't have access to his laptop to prove it, you would expect the FIA to investigate.

By the way. What is your take on this letter?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html

If true, do you think Stepney acted in a noble and legal manner in whistle blowing Ferrari and why do you think they didn't act?

8th October 2007, 15:35

By the way. What is your take on this letter?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html

If true, do you think Stepney acted in a noble and legal manner in whistle blowing Ferrari and why do you think they didn't act?

The FIA took action. Whiting did look at the floor at the Australian GP, as he said he would.

Besides that undeniable and documented fact (i presume you have no evidence to prove that Ferrari failed scrutineering?), these quotes really does stand out....

"Peter also asked me what I wanted and what was I trying to achieve from doing this"

Which to me says that the FIA could see immediately that this was a man with an agenda of his own. Stepney had already announced to the world his unhappiness at the management at Ferrari, so his motives were suspect.

"and I replied I'm not looking for anything except a clean and fair championship"

A clean and fair championship? This from a man who'll happily email the race strategy of his team to a competitor?

Nigel Stepney obviously belongs to the same self-deluded school as Ron "Integrity" Dennis.

Even the FIA could see that. Why else would they have asked what Stepney wanted to achieve?

trumperZ06

8th October 2007, 15:42

Until it has been decided that is the case, then I would have thought they were duty bound to look into the matter. Wouldn't you.

After all, if MC said that he had sent a copy of the dossier to RD but didn't have access to his laptop to prove it, you would expect the FIA to investigate.

By the way. What is your take on this letter?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html

If true, do you think Stepney acted in a noble and legal manner in whistle blowing Ferrari and why do you think they didn't act?

:dozey: Hhmmm... Noble & Stepney probably don't belong in the same sentence. What Stepney says however... does need to be investigated... and Mad Max appears to be fearful of possible findings!!!

:p : Ole Maxie seems sorely upset ( see Hill's open letter about Maxie's tirade over Jackie Stewart calling the investigation a Witch Hunt)...

When anyone questions the FIA's decision in the Stepneygate/McLaren issue... as though Max has something to hide.

8th October 2007, 15:44

I have stated that I think it would be better for the sport for closure to be achieved on this matter. There is nothing much that can happen to McLaren and other teams have a lot more to lose.

And I can't help but think that, as the owner of a team with self-proclaimed integrity, I would want to appeal clear my name if I was innocent and/or not in agreement with the findings of the WMSC.

I can't help but think that it also is in the interest of the sport to go to the ends of the earth to prove, if I had the evidence, that my team has been wronged.

Alas, it seems that for Ron, integrity does have a price he is not willing to pay.

Flat.tyres

8th October 2007, 15:47

The FIA took action. Whiting did look at the floor at the Australian GP, as he said he would.

Besides that undeniable and documented fact (i presume you have no evidence to prove that Ferrari failed scrutineering?), these quotes really does stand out....

"Peter also asked me what I wanted and what was I trying to achieve from doing this"

Which to me says that the FIA could see immediately that this was a man with an agenda of his own. Stepney had already announced to the world his unhappiness at the management at Ferrari, so his motives were suspect.

"and I replied I'm not looking for anything except a clean and fair championship"

A clean and fair championship? This from a man who'll happily email the race strategy of his team to a competitor?

Nigel Stepney obviously belongs to the same self-deluded school as Ron "Integrity" Dennis.

Even the FIA could see that. Why else would they have asked what Stepney wanted to achieve?

OK, lets look at it a little further shall we?

Charlie looked at it and announced it was OK even though he had documentation outlining how it was circumventing the rules, it was still OK and passed without a hitch. He was warned quite a time before the Aus GP that this was an issue yet he decided to do nothing and consequently, Ferrari used a car that circumvented the rules but complied with scrutineering.

After the GP, McLaren questioned the device to be told it WAS illegal and the scruitineering procedures were changed to stop it happening again.

The question remains unanswered. Why did it not be changed when Stepney first went to the FIA and blew the whistle and only acted after he was forced to divulge the information to a competitor? This question must be answered.

As for the rest of the post and NS's motives, I share your doubts as well. NS saying he was a burning branch of objectivity sounds a bit hollow but I have no evidence either way to suggest why he did it either. I doubt we will ever get truly to the bottom of this particular chapter and what his motives were. Perhaps this book of his should throw some light on the matter.

What we cannot ignore though is the fact that NS went to the FIA with the information and they did Jack with it until he then went to McLaren.

BDunnell

8th October 2007, 15:51

OK, lets look at it a little further shall we?

Charlie looked at it and announced it was OK even though he had documentation outlining how it was circumventing the rules, it was still OK and passed without a hitch. He was warned quite a time before the Aus GP that this was an issue yet he decided to do nothing and consequently, Ferrari used a car that circumvented the rules but complied with scrutineering.

After the GP, McLaren questioned the device to be told it WAS illegal and the scruitineering procedures were changed to stop it happening again.

The question remains unanswered. Why did it not be changed when Stepney first went to the FIA and blew the whistle and only acted after he was forced to divulge the information to a competitor? This question must be answered.

As for the rest of the post and NS's motives, I share your doubts as well. NS saying he was a burning branch of objectivity sounds a bit hollow but I have no evidence either way to suggest why he did it either. I doubt we will ever get truly to the bottom of this particular chapter and what his motives were. Perhaps this book of his should throw some light on the matter.

What we cannot ignore though is the fact that NS went to the FIA with the information and they did Jack with it until he then went to McLaren.

There is only one thing for it. The FIA will have to fine itself $100 million.

ArrowsFA1

8th October 2007, 15:55

Have you considered that by not investigating the claims of a desperate and discredited man accused of leaking info to a rival and of sabotage, the FIA are acting in the interests of the sport?
No. An accusation has been made. In the context of everything we have seen on this subject so far, it is reasonable to expect the FIA to investigate it.

8th October 2007, 16:09

In the context of everything we have seen on this subject so far, it is reasonable to expect the FIA to investigate it.

That is where we differ.

It is not reasonable for the FIA to investigate the unsubstantiated claims of a man whose credibility and integrity do not exist.

ArrowsFA1

8th October 2007, 16:30

That is where we differ.
I think we established that some time ago :p

8th October 2007, 16:32

I think we established that some time ago :p

Now, on that, I don't differ.

Flat.tyres

8th October 2007, 16:35

That is where we differ.

It is not reasonable for the FIA to investigate the unsubstantiated claims of a man whose credibility and integrity do not exist.

BUT, if as Nigel stated, he blew the whistle to the FIA and they did nothing, then the FIA is looking incompetant.... at best.

Lets look at some historic posts but the main ones are the last 2.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=326443&postcount=326

What would have, could have, should have happened was that NS took the matter to the FIA. He did.

Why did this not get dealt with by them at the first time of asking instead of starting this ordeal. If anyone has brought the sport into disrepute, it's the FIA. Again!

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=326461&postcount=331

Well, there is probably every chance that they would have continued had not Mclaren blown the whistle because they already had the information but choose not to act on it until McLaren were involved and then, hey presto. :D

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=326313&postcount=316

Because the FIA weren't going to act otherwise as they already Knew what was going on ;)

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=321293&postcount=195

But, NS did follow the "right" way of doing things and there appeared to be a whitewash of the whole affair. Then he had 3 options. Take it to the papers, take it to a competitor to raise or drop it. He chose the second and I suggest the correct option.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320585&postcount=182

I would really like you to comment on this one Tamburello :laugh:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320564&postcount=176

And this one

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320552&postcount=170

The smoking gun?

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320535&postcount=163

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=319806&postcount=142

But, this is the key to it all isn't it. Had the FIA acted when they were informed, this would have probably been all over.

8th October 2007, 16:42

Had the FIA acted when they were informed, this would have probably been all over.

Nice try, but it merely shows how desperate and inadequate your argument has become.

The FIA did act.

Stepney & Mclaren did not like the result, but the FIA acted.

Under no circumstances does not liking the verdict excuse a contempt of the authorities as then displayed by Stepney and your beloved Mclaren.

But then, since you think that it does, it does explain a lot.

Flat.tyres

8th October 2007, 16:54

Nice try, but it merely shows how desperate and inadequate your argument has become.

The FIA did act.

Stepney & Mclaren did not like the result, but the FIA acted.

Under no circumstances does not liking the verdict excuse a contempt of the authorities as then displayed by Stepney and your beloved Mclaren.

But then, since you think that it does, it does explain a lot.

Sorry, first can you tell me how you think that the FIA acted. As far as I see, they did nothing.

Facts my dear fellow, facts.

Stepney went to the FIA and blew the whistle. The FIA confirmed that such a device was deeply suspicious. The FIA did nothing with this information allowing Ferrari to race with a deeply suspicious device.

NS went to the competitors who questioned such a device and the FIA confirmed it would be illegal if it was used. Ferrari changed their floor without penalty.

Is that not the occurence of events in this matter? What did the FIA do when Stepney blew the whistle.

From your own fingers is the most damning verdict for the FIA

Had the whistle been blown in the direction of the FIA, then there would be no problem.
Had the FIA independently investigated the Ferrari floor after recieving a whistle-blowing email, then there would be no ill-feeling from Ferrari towards Mclaren (well, not regarding the email anyway.......admittedly there would be from the last 10 years).I am still awaiting an answer to those statements from you in the light that NS DID go to the FIA and they did nothing.

I don't think my arguement is weak at all. i think it is very valid so please, kindly answer the question and stop posturing.

markabilly

8th October 2007, 17:08

Sorry, first can you tell me how you think that the FIA acted. As far as I see, they did nothing.

Facts my dear fellow, facts.

Stepney went to the FIA and blew the whistle. The FIA confirmed that such a device was deeply suspicious. The FIA did nothing with this information allowing Ferrari to race with a deeply suspicious device.

NS went to the competitors who questioned such a device and the FIA confirmed it would be illegal if it was used. Ferrari changed their floor without penalty.

Is that not the occurence of events in this matter? What did the FIA do when Stepney blew the whistle.

From your own fingers is the most damning verdict for the FIA

I am still awaiting an answer to those statements from you in the light that NS DID go to the FIA and they did nothing.

I don't think my arguement is weak at all. i think it is very valid so please, kindly answer the question and stop posturing.

A very valid point that goes straight for the heart!!!

While all these arguments (on all sides stated recently) have merit about justice and truth that should be resolved, the "politics are not right" at the present time.

Just as the last hearing had nothing to do with justice, the FIA did not act and will NOT act...it is damning, yet that is the current political stage that controls this matter.

Flat.tyres

8th October 2007, 17:27

A very valid point that goes straight for the heart!!!

While all these arguments (on all sides stated recently) have merit about justice and truth that should be resolved, the "politics are not right" at the present time.

Just as the last hearing had nothing to do with justice, the FIA did not act and will NOT act...it is damning, yet that is the current political stage that controls this matter.

Please, please stop there. You have said everything that needed to be said so stop, I emplore you ;) :D

8th October 2007, 17:48

Sorry, first can you tell me how you think that the FIA acted. As far as I see, they did nothing.

Facts my dear fellow, facts.

I don't think my arguement is weak at all. i think it is very valid so please, kindly answer the question and stop posturing.

"As far as I can see" doth not a fact maketh.

The fact is that the FIA looked at the Ferrari floor at Melbourne and passed the floor as being legal.

That is doing something.

You say they did nothing.....are you sure it's just that they didn't do what you would have liked them to do?

Whatever the outcome of the FIA's actions in Melbourne, trying to blame the FIA for the sins of Stepney and Mclaren is sad.

That is a fact.

Mclaren have committed a disgraceful act.

That is also a fact.

Sorry to have to bother you with that, but you do like facts, don't you?

BDunnell

8th October 2007, 19:34

That is where we differ.

It is not reasonable for the FIA to investigate the unsubstantiated claims of a man whose credibility and integrity do not exist.

Quite a lot of criminals would go unconvicted were it not for the evidence of other criminals.

BDunnell

8th October 2007, 19:36

Nigel Stepney obviously belongs to the same self-deluded school as Ron "Integrity" Dennis.

Why such a vehement disagreement with the oft-expressed views of those who have followed F1 professionally for many years, very many of whom have stated publicly that they believe him to be a man of no small amount of integrity?

trumperZ06

8th October 2007, 19:49

Mclaren have committed a disgraceful act.

That is also a fact.

Sorry to have to bother you with that, but you do like facts, don't you?

:p : NOT PROVEN !!!

;) So far, what one can say is fact:

A limited number of rogue McLaren employees (one engineer & two drivers, prehaps a few more)... were given access to Ferrari information by a Ferrari employee, who now admits that he received McLaren information in return, which he shared with a few other Ferrari employees.

That same Ferrari employee earlier advised FIA technical personel that... in his opinion, Ferrari was cheating by using a movable floor. After nothing was done by the FIA, the Ferrari employee then provided the same information to McLaren... who lodged a protest...

resulting in the FIA ruling that the Ferrari movable floors were to be changed.

The root problem with Mad Max's Kangaroo court's decision, and the outragious penalties assessed, is the clear lack of any EVIDIENCE that shows that McLaren as a company... was guilty!!!

The press has pointed out the "lack of evidience issue", since the guilty verdict by the FIA !!!

Now the press is keying in on Max's refusal to conduct an investigation.

:s mokin:

tinchote

8th October 2007, 20:00

:p : NOT PROVEN !!!

;) So far, what one can say is fact:

A limited number of rogue employees (one engineer & two drivers, prehaps a few more)... were given access to Ferrari information by a Ferrari employee, who now admits that he received McLaren information in return, which he shared with a few other Ferrari employees.

That same Ferrari employee earlier advised FIA technical personel that... in his opinion, Ferrari was cheating by using a movable floor. After nothing was done by the FIA, the Ferrari employee then provided the same information to McLaren... who lodged a protest...

resulting in the FIA ruling that the Ferrari movable floors were to be changed.

The root problem with Mad Max's Kangaroo court's decision, and the outragious penalties assessed, is the clear lack of any EVIDIENCE that shows that McLaren as a company... was guilty!!!

The press has pointed out the "lack of evidience issue", since the guilty verdict by the FIA !!!

Now the press is keying in on Max's refusal to conduct an investigation.

:s mokin:

It's funny that you choose to take Stepney's word at face value. Do you know that his assertions contradict with Coughlan's? Do you know that they contradict the list of phone calls and text messages supplied to the Italian justice? What do you think about that? You think that Coughlan is lying and Stepney is telling the truth? I want to know.

ioan

8th October 2007, 20:11

Easy Drifter

8th October 2007, 20:17

Ho Hum. And around and around we go accomplishing nothing but getting members at each others throats.
If anything is ever to be decided and settled it will be in the proper courts not the FIA.

BDunnell

8th October 2007, 20:20

Am I alone in finding the sense of moral outrage being expressed by some here more than a little vomit-inducing?

trumperZ06

8th October 2007, 20:25

The same people who were yelling that they want evidence before McLaren gets punished want the FIA to punish Ferrari without evidence! ;)
Or maybe you got some evidence, although Stepney himself says there isn't any?!

:p : Read the facts first Ioan, before posting !!!

;) Many people (myself included), are questioning Max's refusal to open an investigation about the allegations Stepney has made.

Especially the FIA's technical personel's stonewalling the "movable floor" issue...

which was later found to be ill-legal !!!

:s mokin:

trumperZ06

8th October 2007, 20:51

It's funny that you choose to take Stepney's word at face value. Do you know that his assertions contradict with Coughlan's? Do you know that they contradict the list of phone calls and text messages supplied to the Italian justice? What do you think about that? You think that Coughlan is lying and Stepney is telling the truth? I want to know.

Tin,

There is... NOTHING FUNNY...

about this whole mess which now seems to have been a "Rush to Judgement"... harming McLaren and Ron Dennis without a proper investigaion and presentation of evidience.

Now we find that:

Stepney alerted the FIA technical personel to the "movable floor" issue and questioned their legality. After the FIA took no action... the information was forwarded to McLaren... who protested the floors. The FIA then forced Ferrari to make changes.

Stepney also says that he, in turn, received information from McLaren, which he shared with other Ferrari personel.

McLaren and Ron Dennis were warned/threatened not to punish Alonso... after Alonso's attempt to Black Mail Dennis & McLaren.

Lots of questions are being raised...

I don't think we have gotten anywhere close to the bottom of this mess... the lies & cover-ups are ongoing, and Max is making every effort to stop any futher investigation.

Hopefully... the press will keep making inquiries & bringing facts into the open... which may result in a hearing being conducted in a Court of Law.

:s mokin:

BDunnell

8th October 2007, 21:12

Tin,

There is... NOTHING FUNNY...

about this whole mess which now seems to have been a "Rush to Judgement"... harming McLaren and Ron Dennis without a proper investigaion and presentation of evidience.

There may be nothing funny about it, nor any pleasure for the reasonable to derive from it, but this isn't a matter of life and death.

wmcot

8th October 2007, 21:22

tinchote

8th October 2007, 21:38

I don't think we have gotten anywhere close to the bottom of this mess... the lies & cover-ups are ongoing, and Max is making every effort to stop any futher investigation.

Hopefully... the press will keep making inquiries & bringing facts into the open... which may result in a hearing being conducted in a Court of Law.

That I completely agree with.

tinchote

8th October 2007, 21:39

I think we have a lot of unsubstantiated claims by people who are less than credible on all sides (Max and Ron probably included in the list)

:up:

ArrowsFA1

8th October 2007, 22:03

The same people who were yelling that they want evidence before McLaren gets punished want the FIA to punish Ferrari without evidence! ;)
Who is saying that? I for one would like the FIA to examine what there is. Any punishment, if any is considered to be required, can be applied then. There is no assumption of guilt here.

Or maybe you got some evidence, although Stepney himself says there isn't any?!
Once again, Stepney says nothing of the sort. What he has said is that Ferrari confiscated his laptop which means he cannot provide certain pieces of information that he did have. Convenient, or inconvenient? You choose ;)

trumperZ06

9th October 2007, 00:37

That I completely agree with.

;) Hhmmm... I can't dis-agree with THAT !!!

:D It seems like we are getting closer together...Tinchote !!! :beer:

markabilly

9th October 2007, 06:40

Ho Hum. And around and around we go accomplishing nothing but getting members at each others throats.
If anything is ever to be decided and settled it will be in the proper courts not the FIA.

My thoughts exactly and I doubt that whatever, if ever, that it will matter much, several years down the road in a real court.....as to the FIA and so forth, there will have to be a big change in politics as now too much worry about more dirty linens and all after the last mess-joke or whatever---

but i get no respect from most on this, though if the mark of a great scientist engineer or whatever is to be able to predict what will happen before it does, ought to mean something...but I guess not

I always thought crazy was to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.... :rolleyes:

And when I say politics, i do not mean love for big red or hate for Mac or whatever, because the people at the top would broil their mother and serve her for dinner, and toss in their own children as dessert, if it might make them enough money and power to warrant such an endeavor and to deal with the potential cost of such activities

ioan

9th October 2007, 08:50

Who is saying that? I for one would like the FIA to examine what there is. Any punishment, if any is considered to be required, can be applied then. There is no assumption of guilt here.

Once again, Stepney says nothing of the sort. What he has said is that Ferrari confiscated his laptop which means he cannot provide certain pieces of information that he did have. Convenient, or inconvenient? You choose ;)

Let's see:

You have to understand that my computer has been confiscated by Ferrari and therefore I cannot supply any documents to back up my statements and only an indication of the dates, but your organization will have copies of the original e-mails I sent regarding my concerns.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html

The above part is about the emails Stepney sent to the FIA at the start of the season telling them about the floor.

"I got information about when they [McLaren] were stopping," Stepney says. "I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car from him [Coughlan]. Ferrari got off very lightly. I was their employee at the time. I was aware of certain stuff they were doing at tests, fuel levels, for example. I knew what fuel level they were running. I think they should have been docked points personally. The question is: Did I use the information, did I talk about it?' That's the big question. I spoke to some people about it. I can't prove it, there are no e-mails or anything. Points about the fuel and the differences [between Ferrari and McLaren] were discussed inside. As well as McLaren having an advantage, did Ferrari have an advantage? I think so."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19720.html

The above is about his claim of passing McLaren info to Ferrari, and he acknowledges that he can't support his claim with anything because "there are no e-mails or anything".

My point is that we shouldn't mixed the two different articles that talk about two different events:
1). Stepney's emails to the FIA, that are allegedly on his confiscated laptop.
2). Stepney claiming that he gave info to some Ferrari team members, but acknowledging that there is no proof to it.

I just felt that you were mixing the two events and I tried to clear it up. Hope it worked. :)