FIA hearing - Mclaren out of WCC 2007 *merged*

[Mikeall]

If McLaren had been banned from the remaining races, but the drivers' points had been kept, then I guess it would have been fun to see Alonso in Renault and Hamilton in Williams for the rest of the season trying to keep their WDC advantage. :D If Kimi wins all the remaining four races, he would have 114 points. If Hamilton in a Williams finishes fifth behind Ferraris and BMWs for the rest of the year, he would have 108 points. :D But probably the Ferrari would break down at least for once, which would give greater chance for LH/FA.

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure Fisichella and Koveleinen would be obliged to share the other Renault seat and maybe the same with Wurz and Rosberg at Williams...

[F=ma]

If McLaren aren't penalized for being in possession of Ferrari's Intellectual Property, then that sends the message that its okay to own other teams' IP just so long as it can't be proven that you used it. That's a load of BS.

Imagine some guy knocked on your door with a duffel bag full of weed. You opened the door, looked at the bag and its contents, and you didn't stop him from walking in and setting it down in your living room. Then, a few months later, the cops come in and find some amount of weed in your house, with no evidence that you had ever smoked any. Possession itself is illegal, how in the heck can you make a case to say that you shouldn't be punished.

Sure a guy walked into your house on his own free will, but it became YOUR responsibility once he set foot in your house.

[Easy Drifter]

Daika: Maybe you could replace Mad Max?

[markabilly]

This simple.

McLaren is getting banned from the Constructor's Championship because a disgruntled Ferrari employee sent one of McLaren's people confidential Ferrari data and that employee did not immediately notify Ferrari and the FIA.

The McLaren drivers are allowed to compete and keep their points because nobody has been able to demonstrate that any of the information has been used on, or to benefit, any of the McLaren cars. For Ioan's benefit, the cars were not illegal.

The 100 million dollar fine is because Max realizes he and Bernie are killing F1 and now he wants to go into the football business like Bernie and Flav but needs some buy-in capital.

In a nutshell, McLaren is guilty of having an employee not do the proper thing after a Ferrari employee did an improper thing to him or for him.


Very good explanation as why they should have done as they did...but unfortuantely, i think they were doing it to avoid bad PR building up that is being generated by ferrari and to keep Hamster cash rolling in...otherwise

[Sleeper]

This simple.

McLaren is getting banned from the Constructor's Championship because a disgruntled Ferrari employee sent one of McLaren's people confidential Ferrari data and that employee did not immediately notify Ferrari and the FIA.

The McLaren drivers are allowed to compete and keep their points because nobody has been able to demonstrate that any of the information has been used on, or to benefit, any of the McLaren cars. For Ioan's benefit, the cars were not illegal.

The 100 million dollar fine is because Max realizes he and Bernie are killing F1 and now he wants to go into the football business like Bernie and Flav but needs some buy-in capital.

In a nutshell, McLaren is guilty of having an employee not do the proper thing after a Ferrari employee did an improper thing to him or for him.
I expect that this is likely to have been the case, though I dont know about the football bit.

[Daniel]

This simple.

McLaren is getting banned from the Constructor's Championship because a disgruntled Ferrari employee sent one of McLaren's people confidential Ferrari data and that employee did not immediately notify Ferrari and the FIA.

The McLaren drivers are allowed to compete and keep their points because nobody has been able to demonstrate that any of the information has been used on, or to benefit, any of the McLaren cars. For Ioan's benefit, the cars were not illegal.

The 100 million dollar fine is because Max realizes he and Bernie are killing F1 and now he wants to go into the football business like Bernie and Flav but needs some buy-in capital.

In a nutshell, McLaren is guilty of having an employee not do the proper thing after a Ferrari employee did an improper thing to him or for him.
And the small matter of Coughlan photocopying the documents :rolleyes:

[N. Jones]

Which he got from a Ferrari employee. Never forget that - a Ferrari employee gave confidential documents and handed them to a stupid McLaren employee.

We have to wait until tomorrow to see what the FIA punished McLaren for.

[janneppi]

And the small matter of Coughlan photocopying the documents :rolleyes:
And how would you link that back to McLaren in any credible way?

[Daniel]

Which he got from a Ferrari employee. Never forget that - a Ferrari employee gave confidential documents and handed them to a stupid McLaren employee.

We have to wait until tomorrow to see what the FIA punished McLaren for.
I could go right now and give my girlfriends car keys to someone on the street and get them to steal her car. Doesn't mean it's her fault. There is a certain level of trust in an organisation. If not then it doesn't function.......

[Daniel]

And how would you link that back to McLaren in any credible way?
The FIA seem to have found a way ;) Why don't we wait for the evidence and assume their guilty until proven innocent?

[ArrowsFA1]

In an extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council was held in Paris on the 12th of September 2007, The following decision was taken:
"The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructors' points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championshiop an the team can score no point for the remainder of the season *.
"Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to 100 million dollar, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction.
"However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points **.
"The WMSC will receive a full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season."
The full reasons for this decision will be issued on the 14th September 2007.
* Points gained by other teams so far this season will not be affected.
** No McLaren representative will be allowed on the podium should a McLaren driver win in any of the remaining races of the 2007 season.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62313

[trumperZ06]

We have to wait until tomorrow to see what the FIA punished McLaren for.[/QUOTE]

:D Finally a rational statement.

:rolleyes: We have to wait to see the evidence that resulted in the Draconian sentence handed down by the FIA. Today, Ron Dennis's character was brutally destroyed... and we are left to wonder... WHY ???

Ron Dennis and McLaren maintain they didn't use information provided by a disgruntled Ferrari employee. If that is true... I see an appeal that's likely to over-turn the FIA's sentence.

:dozey: Another chapter in our favorite Soap Opera...

Formula One... as the World turns

[Hondo]

And the small matter of Coughlan photocopying the documents :rolleyes:

I though I covered that by saying the employee did not do the right thing when he got the documents.

This "Truth" that Ferrari is yammering on about finally coming out isn't much different than the original findings. The real Ferrari truth is that they weren't going to win the Constructor's Championship this year either with a race car on a track so this became a convient option to explore. The FIA probably didn't have to drop McLaren from the championship. They could have just deducted enough points from them to ensure that Ferrari won the Constructor's championship and let McLaren finish second.

Ferrari got what they wanted and truth had nothing to do with it.

[Easy Drifter]

And the stomach!
I expect tomorrow's statement will be a masterpiece of Mad Max speak that will be as clear as mud but really clarify zip.

[AndySpeed]

As it is not known for sure that McLaren are totally innocent, then the current punishment seems fair. (And yes I do say this as a lifelong McLaren fan. Take note, Ferrari fans).

However I also sympathise with Ron Dennis and the majority of the McLaren organisation, how the actions of a few have damaged them and their reputations so bad, even if the information was never actively used.

[DonnieDarco]

Special immunity my backside. They were desperate to keep Lewis in. What would either driver say??? It's hardly likely they would say yes we've been cheating so ban us, now is it???

So they've gone for overkill with the £50 mill fine and a two year constructors ban instead.

[Mikeall]

My opinion is if they were guilty, a fair penalty would be race bans or disqualifications in addition to legal costs.

The theft of documents and industrial espionage is a legal one not a motorsport one, so the punishment cannot be for that.

Using this information is a motor racing one, so if guilty, the team (including the drivers) should be disqualified and/or banned showing the behaviour will not tolerated and that teams should operate within the law and not gain advantage by illegal means. A moderate fine of the order of hundreds of thousands should be applied or even a few million. It sends out a message to other teams not to repeat McLaren's actions and shows that in no way can a team benefit from illegal activities.

If a team lies to the FIA or tries to conceal evidence a fine should be multiplied by a factor related to the severity of the lies and the negative publicity it brings. Even still $100 million seems excessive and could cost people jobs. Maybe there was nothing useful to be gained from using the dossier, I don't know what was in it.

Basically what I think happened was that the dossier was internal and property of Ferrari but largely useless to a competitor. However I suspect McLaren lied through their teeth, abused their status as championship contenders to manipulate the media to gain sympathy over what was essentially a legal matter. Posessing illegally obtained information and the and lying about how it was distributed (whether or not it was useful) does bring the sport into disrepute. I think its right they shouldn't benefit from the constructors championship (where the money is made from F1). Winning the constructors championship is about $70million I've heard, a $30 million (Kolles said fine was offset by constructors championship losses) fine doesn't actually sound that bad anymore.

Overall I agree with the FIA and disagree with virtually all of you. The punishment is fair for contempt and bringing F1 into disrepute (and this time the disrepute is very clear for all to see), however it is not a punishment for cheating.

Best of luck to all the drivers and teams, and I hope we have a good end of season :)

My opinion is if they were guilty, a fair penalty would be race bans or disqualifications in addition to legal costs.

The theft of documents and industrial espionage is a legal one not a motorsport one, so the punishment cannot be for that.

Using this information is a motor racing one, so if guilty, the team (including the drivers) should be disqualified and/or banned showing the behaviour will not tolerated and that teams should operate within the law and not gain advantage by illegal means. A moderate fine of the order of hundreds of thousands should be applied or even a few million. It sends out a message to other teams not to repeat McLaren's actions and shows that in no way can a team benefit from illegal activities.

If a team lies to the FIA or tries to conceal evidence a fine should be multiplied by a factor related to the severity of the lies and the negative publicity it brings. Even still $100 million seems excessive and could cost people jobs. Maybe there was nothing useful to be gained from using the dossier, I don't know what was in it.

Basically what I think happened was that the dossier was internal and property of Ferrari but largely useless to a competitor. However I suspect McLaren lied through their teeth, abused their status as championship contenders to manipulate the media to gain sympathy over what was essentially a legal matter. Posessing illegally obtained information and the and lying about how it was distributed (whether or not it was useful) does bring the sport into disrepute. I think its right they shouldn't benefit from the constructors championship (where the money is made from F1). Winning the constructors championship is about $70million I've heard, a $30 million (Kolles said fine was offset by constructors championship losses) fine doesn't actually sound that bad anymore.

Overall I agree with the FIA and disagree with virtually all of you. The punishment is fair for contempt and bringing F1 into disrepute (and this time the disrepute is very clear for all to see), however it is not a punishment for cheating.

Best of luck to all the drivers and teams, and I hope we have a good end of season :)

Excellent post.

[Daniel]

Special immunity my backside. They were desperate to keep Lewis in. What would either driver say??? It's hardly likely they would say yes we've been cheating so ban us, now is it???

So they've gone for overkill with the £50 mill fine and a two year constructors ban instead.
Couldn't agree more :)

Interesting watching Ron Dennis in the press conference.

He states that the evidence was based on email traffic between Alonso, De la Rosa and, on one occasion, Mike Coughlan but did not involve the team.

Ron, your drivers are part of the team.

[Knock-on]

What is becoming more and more evident and distressing is the way F1 has evolved, from an incredible success story, to the brink of disaster.

When Bernie propelled F1 into this super glamorous, high brow industry, we rode the crest of the wave. The characters were larger than life, the thrills extreme and the gregarious characters, Hunt, Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Burger were Gladiators wrestling those phenomenally brutal cars round a piece of Bitumen.

F1 had its hay day and the public was gripped. The sport rose to meteoritic heights and the Governing body accumulated gravitas by default.

And herein lays the problem. The FIA and its empire manager, Max, became a totalitarian dictatorship that failed spectacularly to remain neutral and govern the sport in an unbiased manner.

When Pop ate itself, it did so with a predictable erosion of talent over hype. The FIA and Max in particular have done far worse.

As Max constructed Rome, he did so with a commercial imperative and a maestro partner in Bernie. It was very rare that the two disagreed but lately there are signals that Max's ego is beginning to become all consuming. He has evolved past governance of the sport and seeks to become it. His constant power struggles with team managers that he seeks to bend to his will from Stoddard to Dennis. His favouritism and outright support for an individual competitor, his farcical pandering to revenue (hence power) over objectivity, his ever increasing desire to play the lead character, his personal vendettas played out in the media like a Sunday omnibus of Eastenders and now, the ultimate disgrace, his deplorable rigging of the constructers championship.

Is it not enough that the rules have been changed to such an extent that F1 would be a laughing stock if anyone could stay awake long enough to understand the joke? Have we not b@stardised the competition to make the only worthwhile talking point of a race is about whose LC is most efficient off the line and what strategy needs to be in place to effect a successful pit pass. Are we not fed up that a minute mistake costing a couple of hundredths of a second in qualifying effectively demolishes any chance of winning a race?

My heart does go out to McLaren in this hour. There is no credible evidence that the Ferrari data .in this dossier was ever passed to anyone apart from Coughlan and a statement from him confirming it was never given to any McLaren employee or representative. McLaren have been bent over, shafted and charged for the privileged.

There is a disease in F1, a cancer, and it rests with the FIA and particularly Max Rufus Mosley. He truly is his father’s son.

The public cannot stand much more and neither can the sport. Viva la revolution. Let the Guillotine drop. Get rid of this megalomaniac now.

[Firstgear]

Mac losses this years points - well, ok

$100,000,00.00 fine - sounds about right

drivers get immunity - agree

2008 car inspected by FIA - naturally

BUT, no Mac representative on the podium - that's just WAY cruel & over the top!!!

[Mikeall]

Maybe team members represent the team but the team is not represented by their actions...

[TopSpeed]

My opinion is if they were guilty, a fair penalty would be race bans or disqualifications in addition to legal costs.

The theft of documents and industrial espionage is a legal one not a motorsport one, so the punishment cannot be for that.

Using this information is a motor racing one, so if guilty, the team (including the drivers) should be disqualified and/or banned showing the behaviour will not tolerated and that teams should operate within the law and not gain advantage by illegal means. A moderate fine of the order of hundreds of thousands should be applied or even a few million. It sends out a message to other teams not to repeat McLaren's actions and shows that in no way can a team benefit from illegal activities.

If a team lies to the FIA or tries to conceal evidence a fine should be multiplied by a factor related to the severity of the lies and the negative publicity it brings. Even still $100 million seems excessive and could cost people jobs. Maybe there was nothing useful to be gained from using the dossier, I don't know what was in it.

Basically what I think happened was that the dossier was internal and property of Ferrari but largely useless to a competitor. However I suspect McLaren lied through their teeth, abused their status as championship contenders to manipulate the media to gain sympathy over what was essentially a legal matter. Posessing illegally obtained information and the and lying about how it was distributed (whether or not it was useful) does bring the sport into disrepute. I think its right they shouldn't benefit from the constructors championship (where the money is made from F1). Winning the constructors championship is about $70million I've heard, a $30 million (Kolles said fine was offset by constructors championship losses) fine doesn't actually sound that bad anymore.

Overall I agree with the FIA and disagree with virtually all of you. The punishment is fair for contempt and bringing F1 into disrepute (and this time the disrepute is very clear for all to see), however it is not a punishment for cheating.

Best of luck to all the drivers and teams, and I hope we have a good end of season :)

If the punishment was for bringing F1 into disrepute, shouldn't have the following actions been punished as well?:

1) 2002 Austrian GP finish (Barrichello giving way to Schumacher win in the last straight)
2) 2003 US GP finish (Michael Schumacher and Barrichello Dead Heat)
3) 2005 US GP (Michelin leaving fans without a race)

[Mikeall]

I think the world in general is not intelligent to appreciate the brilliance of Max Moseley. (If you don't agree assume I was being sarcastic...)

[Jefe Máximo]

I completely agree Knock-on.

Sad state of affairs this "sport" has become.

[grantb4]

Which he got from a Ferrari employee. Never forget that - a Ferrari employee gave confidential documents and handed them to a stupid McLaren employee.

Yeah and we never heard what the dossier contained, or even if it was current information. It could have been years old and both Stepney and Coughlin got set up (entrapped).

[Viktory]

wow, why don't we all just cool down a bit and wait for them to reveal more about the hearing tomorrow?

[Hawkmoon]

My opinion is if they were guilty, a fair penalty would be race bans or disqualifications in addition to legal costs.

The theft of documents and industrial espionage is a legal one not a motorsport one, so the punishment cannot be for that.

Using this information is a motor racing one, so if guilty, the team (including the drivers) should be disqualified and/or banned showing the behaviour will not tolerated and that teams should operate within the law and not gain advantage by illegal means. A moderate fine of the order of hundreds of thousands should be applied or even a few million. It sends out a message to other teams not to repeat McLaren's actions and shows that in no way can a team benefit from illegal activities.

If a team lies to the FIA or tries to conceal evidence a fine should be multiplied by a factor related to the severity of the lies and the negative publicity it brings. Even still $100 million seems excessive and could cost people jobs. Maybe there was nothing useful to be gained from using the dossier, I don't know what was in it.

Basically what I think happened was that the dossier was internal and property of Ferrari but largely useless to a competitor. However I suspect McLaren lied through their teeth, abused their status as championship contenders to manipulate the media to gain sympathy over what was essentially a legal matter. Posessing illegally obtained information and the and lying about how it was distributed (whether or not it was useful) does bring the sport into disrepute. I think its right they shouldn't benefit from the constructors championship (where the money is made from F1). Winning the constructors championship is about $70million I've heard, a $30 million (Kolles said fine was offset by constructors championship losses) fine doesn't actually sound that bad anymore.

Overall I agree with the FIA and disagree with virtually all of you. The punishment is fair for contempt and bringing F1 into disrepute (and this time the disrepute is very clear for all to see), however it is not a punishment for cheating.

Best of luck to all the drivers and teams, and I hope we have a good end of season :)


Excellent post.

It is indeed an excellent post.

McLaren keep going on about there not being any Ferrari IP on their car and they're probably right. However, I think it's beside the point for the reasons stated by Mikeall.

[Hawkmoon]

Yeah and we never heard what the dossier contained, or even if it was current information. It could have been years old and both Stepney and Coughlin got set up (entrapped).

No, we do know what was in the dossier. It contained schematics for the F2007 and details of Ferrari's operating procedures.

[Valve Bounce]

This simple.

McLaren is getting banned from the Constructor's Championship because a disgruntled Ferrari employee sent one of McLaren's people confidential Ferrari data and that employee did not immediately notify Ferrari and the FIA.

The McLaren drivers are allowed to compete and keep their points because nobody has been able to demonstrate that any of the information has been used on, or to benefit, any of the McLaren cars. For Ioan's benefit, the cars were not illegal.

The 100 million dollar fine is because Max realizes he and Bernie are killing F1 and now he wants to go into the football business like Bernie and Flav but needs some buy-in capital.

In a nutshell, McLaren is guilty of having an employee not do the proper thing after a Ferrari employee did an improper thing to him or for him.

I think this post of fiero's is just about what many here think.
I look at this from a neutral stance (being a Team Second Hand Honda Supporter).

There was only one line of action possible. When you think of Coughlan's position in McLaren and what he is in charge of, he should have telephoned Jean Todt immediately and then returned the documents via the FIA.

We all know what else happened, and I am not even going down that road except to say that it was all wrong.

[Mikeall]

If the punishment was for bringing F1 into disrepute, shouldn't have the following actions been punished as well?:

1) 2002 Austrian GP finish (Barrichello giving way to Schumacher win in the last straight)
2) 2003 US GP finish (Michael Schumacher and Barrichello Dead Heat)
3) 2005 US GP (Michelin leaving fans without a race)

1) There was a punishment for the podium antics which showed a lack of respect, but team orders were not really illegal at that time. The exact same thing happened the year before without too many complaints as did Hakkinen allowing Coulthard through at Suzuka 2001.

2) That was funny but an honest mistake in my eyes.

3) No absolutely not. Michelin said it was unsafe to run through turn 13, so for the purposes of insurance it was impossible to run. The track could not be changed by adding a chicane as it would have been untested and possible unsafe and most certainly uninsurable. It would also have been unfair on Bridgestone who made good enough tyres for the event.

[ShiftingGears]

$100m does sound rather excessive. I'm waiting to see the evidence.

[F1 Top Gun]

As a longtime supplier into F1 in the UK I could believe some of the actions claimed of McLaren - but not of them, of other teams instead!
Ron Dennis is his own man - he takes, he borrows, he steals from no-one!
There is a duty here to behave sportingly as motor racing is a SPORT!
However where are the investigations when Ferrari have illegal parts, the original illegal traction control, terminating qualifying by parking on a corner, the list is endless......
But does McLaren offer the same 'incentives' to Max Moseley and Bernie Ecclestone as Ferrari? Do they hell!
Ecclestone and Moselely cannot forgive Ron Dennis for threatening their dominance 4 years ago when airing a view that F1 should have an 'alternative series' to the normal GP races - 5 more teams were willing to start a whole new era of motorsport - but guess what - Ferrari weren't going to play ball.
Payback's a bitch and Ron and his hard working, dedicated team of professionals at the "Ying and Yang" at Woking have had the worst ever bitch-slapping of their careers! Mores the pity - the last thing we needed now was more controversy after the best season's racing for 3 years.

[ioan]

Nope, i blame Ferrari for airing in public something that should have remained behind closed doors.

I suggest you to move to China, freedom of speech won't bother you there! ;)

[TopSpeed]

1) There was a punishment for the podium antics which showed a lack of respect, but team orders were not really illegal at that time. The exact same thing happened the year before without too many complaints as did Hakkinen allowing Coulthard through at Suzuka 2001.

2) That was funny but an honest mistake in my eyes.

3) No absolutely not. Michelin said it was unsafe to run through turn 13, so for the purposes of insurance it was impossible to run. The track could not be changed by adding a chicane as it would have been untested and possible unsafe and most certainly uninsurable. It would also have been unfair on Bridgestone who made good enough tyres for the event.

Legal or Ilegal, safe or not, those actions brought F1 into disrepute.

We still havent seen the evidence that the WMSC used to deliberate, and see how fair was the punishment, for now it's just senseless to either side...

[Pedalpusher]

I'm a McLaren fan, and as has been mentioned already, we have to wait for the full FIA statement tomorrow to find out exactly what McLaren have been punished for.

It's also unfortunate that just as this was shaping up to be one of the best finishes to a season for years, whatever happens, it will always be tainted by this saga.

[ioan]

For Ioan's benefit, the cars were not illegal.

I never said they were.

[jjanicke]

..
What is a bubu, anyone?

A baby's term for an injury.

[ioan]

Special immunity my backside. They were desperate to keep Lewis in. What would either driver say??? It's hardly likely they would say yes we've been cheating so ban us, now is it???

So they've gone for overkill with the £50 mill fine and a two year constructors ban instead.

You're right, plus Lewis gave them no info, so why not take his points away? After all he did nothing to help elucidate this case, au contraire...

[Mikeall]

All three drivers gave info. They said they knew nothing about it, the email thing was a red herring it seems or as Alonso said, "a lie..."

[ioan]

My opinion is if they were guilty, a fair penalty would be race bans or disqualifications in addition to legal costs.

The theft of documents and industrial espionage is a legal one not a motorsport one, so the punishment cannot be for that.

Using this information is a motor racing one, so if guilty, the team (including the drivers) should be disqualified and/or banned showing the behaviour will not tolerated and that teams should operate within the law and not gain advantage by illegal means. A moderate fine of the order of hundreds of thousands should be applied or even a few million. It sends out a message to other teams not to repeat McLaren's actions and shows that in no way can a team benefit from illegal activities.

If a team lies to the FIA or tries to conceal evidence a fine should be multiplied by a factor related to the severity of the lies and the negative publicity it brings. Even still $100 million seems excessive and could cost people jobs. Maybe there was nothing useful to be gained from using the dossier, I don't know what was in it.

Basically what I think happened was that the dossier was internal and property of Ferrari but largely useless to a competitor. However I suspect McLaren lied through their teeth, abused their status as championship contenders to manipulate the media to gain sympathy over what was essentially a legal matter. Posessing illegally obtained information and the and lying about how it was distributed (whether or not it was useful) does bring the sport into disrepute. I think its right they shouldn't benefit from the constructors championship (where the money is made from F1). Winning the constructors championship is about $70million I've heard, a $30 million (Kolles said fine was offset by constructors championship losses) fine doesn't actually sound that bad anymore.

Overall I agree with the FIA and disagree with virtually all of you. The punishment is fair for contempt and bringing F1 into disrepute (and this time the disrepute is very clear for all to see), however it is not a punishment for cheating.

Best of luck to all the drivers and teams, and I hope we have a good end of season :)

You summed it up perfectly! :up:

[jjanicke]

while they will win the championship in an car that is illegal, why are LH and FA cheaters? last i checked, they didn't design or build the car? and is it their fault that the FIA didn't disqualify them from the 2007 WDC? No. that is the FIA's fault.


I don't think Ferrari will. McLaren's drivers used what is possibly an illegal car. Just because they didn't know they were cheating doesn't mean they didn't benefit.

Who says the car is illegal?

[ioan]

wow, why don't we all just cool down a bit and wait for them to reveal more about the hearing tomorrow?

Another good point.

[DonnieDarco]

Planet F1 have a few questions:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2726990,00.html

[ioan]

All three drivers gave info. They said they knew nothing about it, the email thing was a red herring it seems or as Alonso said, "a lie..."

Knowing nothing is not an info that warrants immunity. So why do they warrant them immunity then?

[ioan]

Planet F1 have a few questions:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2726990,00.html

We all know the answer to this one:

"Were the FIA too scared to expel Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso?"

;)

[BeansBeansBeans]

"Were the FIA too scared to expel Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso?"

Of course they were, and who could blame them?

[AndyRAC]

Absolutely scandalous decision. The F1A are a disgrace and as for the World Motorsports Council should be disbanded.
Sorry, but I cant believe that McLaren are guilty, but IF they are, how can the F1A take the Constructors points but not the Drivers. Either they're guilty or they're not. The possible ramifications of the Championship shouldn't have any outcome on their decision. So they want to punish McLaren, but keep the Drivers Championship exciting.
Buzzcocks, that didn't stop them throwing Toyota out of the 1995-96 Championships, taking the Drivers points off them, possibly costing Kankkunen challenging for the Title in 1995.

[AJP]

Well,

F(Ferrari)1 is now screwed for a long time to come.
The sport is now a complete waste of time and money.
This season is over. There will be no reason to watch or even hold any importance to the rest of the season.
If McLaren get busted, so should Ferrari. Its a two way street.
We will now get to the end of the season with Ferrari holding the WCC,
and a completely pointless WDC.
Oh how I wish Max and Bernie would go away and leave this sport to people who care...

I'm so bloody frustrated by this bulls@^t that I can't think straight.

[jjanicke]

I think that it's more likely that McLaren were punished because they lied to the WMSC in July, not because they benefited from the info.

If benefit from the illegally obtained material is the reason than the 2 year expulsion would have been their and their driver's prize.

How was it "illegally obtained"?

A Ferrari employee gave a Mclaren employee information. I'm not sure the method of obtaining it was illegal. I tend to believe having a competitors information is againts the regulations.

[F1 Top Gun]

under Italian law of IPR it is illegal to 'own' or be 'in the posession of' restricted materials protected by the IPR

[ioan]

How was it "illegally obtained"?

A Ferrari employee gave a Mclaren employee information. I'm not sure the method of obtaining it was illegal. I tend to believe having a competitors information is againts the regulations.

If your kid gave your credit card to a stranger on the street than he would legally be in possession of your CC?!
I hope you are kidding, or else there is a problem.

[ioan]

under Italian law of IPR it is illegal to 'own' or be 'in the posession of' restricted materials protected by the IPR

That must be the same for any EU country, UK included.

[jjanicke]

If your kid gave your credit card to a stranger on the street than he would legally be in possession of your CC?!
I hope you are kidding, or else there is a problem.

possession and method of possession (i.e. obtained) are two different things.

Like I initially said "I tend to believe having a competitors information is againts the regulations" not the method by which is was obtained in this case. And to quote you just to make sure we are talking about the same thing


If benefit from the illegally obtained.. i.e. illegally obtained = stolen. It was not stolen. It was given by free will from a Ferrari employee to a Mclaren employee.

if you didn't mean stolen then all is good.

[Daika]

Wouldn't it be funny if Mclaren wins the appeal regarding Hungarian qualifying.

[kalasend]

Legal or Ilegal, safe or not, those actions brought F1 into disrepute.

Yo, lose that "disrepute" thing. McLaren is illegally in possession of Ferrari data. They did not steal it. They did not spy it. But they should never keep it in the first place. Now they have kept it for a while and when uncovered, said they did not use it.... Excuse like this means either they got no brians or they think all others got no brains.


We still havent seen the evidence that the WMSC used to deliberate, and see how fair was the punishment, for now it's just senseless to either side...

Forget about the proof. Nobody can prove anything. Benefits can come from any form. Not even a retard would use espionaged data without some form of cover-up or self-protecting. It is super easy for McLaren to claim they did not use the data, and difficult as hell for any authority to find whether McLaren did. So what's your point? That as long as you have a way to cover up your deed, you're clean??

Please, the verdict of the first hearing was a joke already. This is just serving McLaren the right way. Although I agree the fine is excessive and points reduction would be much more suitable.

[ioan]

possession and method of possession (i.e. obtained) are two different things.

Like I initially said "I tend to believe having a competitors information is againts the regulations" not the method by which is was obtained in this case. And to quote you just to make sure we are talking about the same thing

i.e. illegally obtained = stolen. It was not stolen. It was given by free will from a Ferrari employee to a Mclaren employee.

if you didn't mean stolen then all is good.

OK make that illegal possession if it makes you happy. The key word being illegal! ;)

[jjanicke]

Wouldn't it be funny if Mclaren wins the appeal regarding Hungarian qualifying.

would be funny if Mclaren were simply not allowed to get anymore points, but those already won would count. But it's unfortunatly not the case.

[ioan]

Wouldn't it be funny if Mclaren wins the appeal regarding Hungarian qualifying.

Good one! :laugh:

[jjanicke]

OK make that illegal possession if it makes you happy. The key word being illegal! ;)


:up: ;)

[markabilly]

Absolutely scandalous decision. The F1A are a disgrace and as for the World Motorsports Council should be disbanded.
Sorry, but I cant believe that McLaren are guilty, but IF they are, how can the F1A take the Constructors points but not the Drivers. Either they're guilty or they're not. The possible ramifications of the Championship shouldn't have any outcome on their decision. So they want to punish McLaren, but keep the Drivers Championship exciting.
Buzzcocks, that didn't stop them throwing Toyota out of the 1995-96 Championships, taking the Drivers points off them, possibly costing Kankkunen challenging for the Title in 1995.

I hate to say it again, but this "result" is exactly what I predicted, and that prediction had very little to do with the facts....

to me it was always clear that being in possession, actual or constructive, warranted action against Macl in the first hearing. Period.

It did not depend on benefit. Period. Their actions made them an accessory after the fact, especially when they did not report the crime. The real reason for no punishment after the first hearing was not to threaten what was occurring with Hamilton and his run for the title.

If they had it out for RD, it would have happenned in the first hearing. Period.

Then the real fussing starts from ferrari and others about this really dumb first verdict. Add in morre bad PR from a stupid "you had it but you did not benefit" (or benefit enough) so no penalty. Dumb.

Appeal. More really bad PR.

Then ferrari or italy police digs up more stuff about emails. They did not need FA to tip them off about anything, just gung ho fundamental police work

AND THAT IS WHERE THE RAT CAME FROM---NOT FROM FA!!!!!


So now we have new hearing where Maxie decides he is going to do something to stop the bleeding from bad PR

But what to do with LH? Suppose Mac goes down ---how do you save LH and his rookie brit title and more importantly the cash flow??????

Brilliant idea: (1)Offer immunity to the drivers for talking and cooperating---they do not have to really incriminate, just talk, so they they have immunity to protect them (Hamster in the title chase).

(2) Pull it back from the appeal, where maxie can better do his "stuff", and it is late in the season, anything that now happens with an appeal, happens after the season and wdc is decided (hopefully with Bernie getting his love wish of having LH win the wdc)

Said it all before.

So you non-believers, you want proof, that mac may well have been determined to have benefitted and the overall evidence prove it (as though that mattered because the goal was to put an end to more bad PR with some hot rocking headlines of "Maclaren is hit with 100 million dollar fine..." with perhaps the added benefit of maxie smacking his fellow brit RD, without affecting the one true hope of britain for eternal fame)

Now one can consider how long this hearing was held, a very short time for a complex case that should have taken days---just think how long it took to decide about the FA?LH pitstop dispute with only three stewards, but the final proof is right from.......

From the mouth of the FIA:

"However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points "



what the fia says tomoorrow is just excuses and smokescreen for what happened today :rolleyes:

[kalasend]

Planet F1 has this question: http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2726990,00.html


* Why have Ferrari escaped punishment when it was the behaviour of their employee which precipitated this crisis? Put another way, if McLaren have been thrown out for receiving confidential Ferrari material, what is to prevent a double agent causing the expulsion of a rival team in the future?

Wow, funny I think I got an answer to that: Call the cop (or FIA, or WMSC), blow the whistle and counter-rat that rat who gave you the data/info/docs immediately.

Or call the rat's team, "Hey I got one of your employee come offering me some of your confidential docs. We have an appointment to meet at 3pm today you want to come along?"

[ioan]

So after all McLaren only stand to lose $ 30 millions from what they have now. I say they got of pretty light and instead of thinking about appealing against this verdict they better kiss Max and Bernie's feet.

It seems that all that Ferrari wanted was the truth about Ron's lies.

[ioan]

what the fia says tomoorrow is just excuses and smokescreen for what happened today :rolleyes:

Yep, they still think that the fans are that stupid.

Truth is in some cases I would even agree with them! ;)

[jjanicke]

So after all McLaren only stand to lose $ 30 millions from what they have now. I say they got of pretty light and instead of thinking about appealing against this verdict they better kiss Max and Bernie's feet.

It seems that all that Ferrari wanted was the truth about Ron's lies.

I'm not following. Where did the other $70m go?

[ioan]

I'm not following. Where did the other $70m go?

The FIA considers that the money they will lose because of them being ousted from the WCC standings are part of the 100 millions fine! They are really nice to the McCheats in the end! :D

[jjanicke]

Dont bother I got it.


"Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to 100 million dollar, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction.


The FIA considers that the money they will lose because of them being ousted from the WCC standings are part of the 100 millions fine! They are really nice to the McCheats in the end! :D

If you consider $30m cheap. ;)

[Sandfly]

The FIA is a bunch of arrogant old boys who have way too much control of racing in the world. Who made them boss???

They protect F1 at all costs from better series like CC competing for the same markets, yet they show complete bias and irrational behaviour in dealing with there own internatl affairs. This is an andictment against the FIA , not McClaren, who have yet to have been found guilty of using and "Leaked " information about the ILLEGAL FERRARI floor in question. WOW.

And you know what - I don't like F1 anyway - but have been watching because of McClaren and Hamilton. This is so much like the NASCAR manipulations that I cant stand it.

[Hawkmoon]

How was it "illegally obtained"?

A Ferrari employee gave a Mclaren employee information. I'm not sure the method of obtaining it was illegal. I tend to believe having a competitors information is againts the regulations.

It was illegally obtained becuase the information did not belong to Nigel Stepney. It belonged to Ferrari. Stepney had no right to give the information to anyone as it wasn't his IP. It didn't own it.

Therefore the IP was illegally given to McLaren and they illegally obtained it. Even though McLaren didn't solicit this information they still guilty of possessing stolen goods.

[markabilly]

.

And you know what - I don't like F1 anyway - but have been watching because of McClaren and Hamilton. This is so much like the NASCAR manipulations that I cant stand it.
I would politely suggest that you are somewhat mistaken as to part of the other stuff you say about the possession of the imformation, but the above where you say:

And you know what - I don't like F1 anyway - but have been watching because of ......... Hamilton

The key word is Hamilton and that is exactly why it has turned out as it has
about the driver penalties because the "exceptional circumstances" have to do with hamilton and people watching hamilton, esp those who would not otherwise pay much attention.

""However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points "
(quote direct from the FIA)

I must say this is having your cake and eating it too for maxie and probably bernie---do not be disrespectful to max, as he has done a true masterpiece of smoke and mirrors, and hey dudes, he is even manged to get all good brits wanting to string up FA for being a dirty rat (when it was really the italian police doing what was obvious to do in a case like this..........)

and now it really don't matter if there is no evidence of benefit, a little bit of evidence or giant, indisputable massive evidence of a complete overhaul and rebuild of mac cars based on the ferrari info...gee, if it were not for the exceptional circumstance where we GAVE immunity....they would have also paid the price...

[millencolin]

Good Result! mclaren cheated so they deserved to be punished. But the drivers table being left alone is also a good thing. Everyone wants to watch the battle between Alonso-v-Hamilton-v-Kimi...

I for one am glad Mclaren are still on track. im attending my first ever grand prix in fuji and i would be a tad unhappy if mclaren werent there (even though im a ferrari fan when it comes to top teams).

and $100million... yikes!!!!!

[markabilly]

Good Result! mclaren cheated so they deserved to be punished. But the drivers table being left alone is also a good thing. Everyone wants to watch the battle between Alonso-v-Hamilton-v-Kimi...

I for one am glad Mclaren are still on track. im attending my first ever grand prix in fuji and i would be a tad unhappy if mclaren werent there (even though im a ferrari fan when it comes to top teams).

and $100million... yikes!!!!!


Another great example of what I just said in the above post!!!! :vader:

[tinchote]

I'm really disappointed with all this. I understand the (commercial) reasons not to exclude the drivers, but this is all disgusting :down:

I think Arrows summarized it perfectly several pages ago: either McLaren has been deemed to have cheated, and then FA and LH should be excluded, or McLaren is innocent and then there is no reason to punish them.

[Valve Bounce]

We all know the answer to this one:

"Were the FIA too scared to expel Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso?"

;)

More to it than that - as The Family would say, "It's Business".

The television audience want to see the Rookie challenging the Double World Champion in every remaining race.

Ban Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso, or even take away their accumulated points and the television audience would suddenly disappear.

So they figuratively shot Ron Dennis to get rid of him, but kept business not only alive, but with all the recent publicity, it will even flourish.

Ferrari have already indicated in no uncertain terms they would be happy to take the WCC away from the track, and Bernie will make even more money from his television ratings.

It's just Good Business!!

[Valve Bounce]

I'm really disappointed with all this. I understand the (commercial) reasons not to exclude the drivers, but this is all disgusting :down:

I think Arrows summarized it perfectly several pages ago: either McLaren has been deemed to have cheated, and then FA and LH should be excluded, or McLaren is innocent and then there is no reason to punish them.

That would have been logicaland fair, but Bad For Business


We are talking about a circus here, not a sporting event.

[markabilly]

More to it than that - as The Family would say, "It's Business".

The television audience want to see the Rookie challenging the Double World Champion in every remaining race.

Ban Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso, or even take away their accumulated points and the television audience would suddenly disappear.

So they figuratively shot Ron Dennis to get rid of him, but kept business not only alive, but with all the recent publicity, it will even flourish.

Ferrari have already indicated in no uncertain terms they would be happy to take the WCC away from the track, and Bernie will make even more money from his television ratings.

It's just Good Business!!

Yep...BUT all of you need to quit badmouthing and disrespecting Maxi--he was so good he even had everyone ready to hang FA as a dirty dog rat....when it is clear the itlaian cops had all the goodies to the extent there were goodies, and how do you justify on technical grounds NOT excluding the drivers if you are flushing Mac with much evidence or no evidence of benefit ???


Simple-----offer immunity, make it appear based on something FA said....
then write:""However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points "


Yeah an italian had something to do it with it, but not who you think, it comes from "the definitive manual of modern politics written by the Italian Renaissance political philosopher Nicolò Machiavelli almost 500 years ago"
:vader:

[truefan72]

This simple.

McLaren is getting banned from the Constructor's Championship because a disgruntled Ferrari employee sent one of McLaren's people confidential Ferrari data and that employee did not immediately notify Ferrari and the FIA.

The McLaren drivers are allowed to compete and keep their points because nobody has been able to demonstrate that any of the information has been used on, or to benefit, any of the McLaren cars. For Ioan's benefit, the cars were not illegal.

The 100 million dollar fine is because Max realizes he and Bernie are killing F1 and now he wants to go into the football business like Bernie and Flav but needs some buy-in capital.

In a nutshell, McLaren is guilty of having an employee not do the proper thing after a Ferrari employee did an improper thing to him or for him.

well said!

[GP-M3]

First off, I'd like to ask the moderators not to merge every thread into ONE @#$% GIGANTIC one that is hard as #@%R to follow.

We could easily have threads on different aspects of this issue.

I'd like to say the the punishment is totally bogus. McLaren were rightly caught cheating, and should be punished. But first of all, the drivers should have been punished also. Yes, FIA wanted the best of both worlds, keep the championship alive, but seem to punish Mac. But they should have at least deducted some points from the drivers. They did not offer them anmesty, but freedom from further punishment down the line. What a sham.

Second the $$ dollar amount. Yes, it looks big, $100M. But it's bogus. Since they are allowed to keep the money they won by cheating, they are being rewarded for cheating. That money is deducted from the $100M. And clearly they won more money by cheating than they would have by playing fair. So, it's a BS situation on the punishment. They should have been stripped of THIS YEARS winnings and fined a smaller amount. By 'crediting' them they money they win during the cheating year, it makes the punishment stupid.

[jjanicke]

It was illegally obtained becuase the information did not belong to Nigel Stepney. It belonged to Ferrari. Stepney had no right to give the information to anyone as it wasn't his IP. It didn't own it.

Therefore the IP was illegally given to McLaren and they illegally obtained it. Even though McLaren didn't solicit this information they still guilty of possessing stolen goods.

Guilty of possessing stolen goods yes. guilty of stealing the goods, NO WAY!

[Hawkmoon]

Guilty of possessing stolen goods yes. guilty of stealing the goods, NO WAY!

I think theft and possessing stolen goods are treated the same way. Although who knows with the FIA. :rolleyes:

[jjanicke]

I'm really disappointed with all this. I understand the (commercial) reasons not to exclude the drivers, but this is all disgusting :down:

I think Arrows summarized it perfectly several pages ago: either McLaren has been deemed to have cheated, and then FA and LH should be excluded, or McLaren is innocent and then there is no reason to punish them.

If the drivers gained no advantage why should they be punished?

It's been clearly stated that Mclaren are not being penalized for using the information to their advantage but for the way they acted during the incident in question.

There's no proof that anything has made it's way onto the MP4-22 and soon we will most likely see that nothing has made it's way onto the designs of the MP4-23.

What's the logic for penalizing the drivers? They never gained an advantage.

Trust me, I'd prefer they come in behind Kimi in the WDC, but not in this way. They didn't do anything wrong. Let's keep at least what's left, out of this saga.

[Kevincal]

This whole "Spy" thing is such a joke and headache to read about. I love racing and I love F1, I don't give a **** about all this nit picky stuff.

The people involved in producing F1 cars seem to switch teams every year anyway, bringing with them knowledge from the former team. So how this is such a big deal and requires such a harsh penalty makes no sense to me.

Ferrari got their ass kicked by RENAULT the last 2 years, you know, the team Fernando was on the last...2 years... Gee I wonder how much valuable Renault info FA gave McLaren? A hell of a lot... Yet some stupid, probably meaningless and unused info is passed around during the race season and we get this crap...

[71minus2]

No, when Ferrari is hurt, it should fight for its rights.

and without wanting to keep on repeating myself, i have not said at ant time that Ferrari were not within their rights to complaint - i think any team in ANY sport would do the same. Its the manner in which they went public at the first possible opportunity which i disagree with.

[Ranger]

I'd accept this punishment as long as everyone can move on from it... time the F1 headlines are about the racing now.

[janneppi]

I added a poll, just out of my own curiosity. :)

[pino]

If the drivers gained no advantage why should they be punished?

It's been clearly stated that Mclaren are not being penalized for using the information to their advantage but for the way they acted during the incident in question.

There's no proof that anything has made it's way onto the MP4-22 and soon we will most likely see that nothing has made it's way onto the designs of the MP4-23.

What's the logic for penalizing the drivers? They never gained an advantage.

Trust me, I'd prefer they come in behind Kimi in the WDC, but not in this way. They didn't do anything wrong. Let's keep at least what's left, out of this saga.

I agree that if Alonso and Hamilton didn't get any advantage, they should keep their points, but why FIA has fined McLaren ? Is their car illegal ? if yes then both drivers are driving an illegal car, am I right ? Strange verdict me think...

:confused:

[leopard]

I've observed all variants of this thread but can't get trough, can anyone tell me which post number clearly telling the result of the hearing? ;( :)

[Daniel]

I agree Pino. Something stinks here and it stinks bad. It should have been Toyota '95 all over again but it was a slap on the wrist instead.

[leopard]

"Ferrari is satisfied that the truth has now emerged."
Which truth? If McLaren running an illegal car adopting Ferrari technology then it is now obvious that McLaren drivers better, this is a truth :)

[DonnieDarco]

I'm really disappointed with all this. I understand the (commercial) reasons not to exclude the drivers, but this is all disgusting :down:

I think Arrows summarized it perfectly several pages ago: either McLaren has been deemed to have cheated, and then FA and LH should be excluded, or McLaren is innocent and then there is no reason to punish them.

Exactly. I knew this would happen, but it doesn't make it any better. Its supposedly a team sport, therefore the whole team is punished, or the whole team is not punished.

[Daniel]

Yeah Donnie but how can you penalise golden any? :p

[ArrowsFA1]

It was illegally obtained becuase the information did not belong to Nigel Stepney. It belonged to Ferrari. Stepney had no right to give the information to anyone as it wasn't his IP. It didn't own it.
Nobody has yet explained how McLaren can be held responsible for the actions of their employee, and hammered for it, while Ferrari are somehow not responsible for their employee and are presented with the WCC as a reward.

Also, can anyone explain why the two central characters in all of this, Coughlan and Stepney, were not present to given evidence?

Why was Ron Dennis told at Monza "that if he were to retire from the sport, all the teams' problems would go away"? (link (http://sport.independent.co.uk/motor_racing/article2961223.ece))

In the same article David Tremayne says:

Ferrari have won this round and are very happy about it, but elsewhere in the paddock there is little respect for a team that literally seems happy to win at any cost.
His is not a minority view.

[MAX_THRUST]

THis stinks!!!!!

Enjoy it Ferrari,

[leopard]

Exactly. I knew this would happen, but it doesn't make it any better. Its supposedly a team sport, therefore the whole team is punished, or the whole team is not punished.

I think that decision was made more to unleash FIA from pressure of favoritism issue on McLaren instead of juridical aspect, and now Ferrari and fans are satisfied their accusation was accommodated without having to ruin McLaren driver's opportunity on winning the title.

Actually constructor point doesn't really make a sense than driver championship, not too much people know that, 1 from 10 :D

[ioan]

In the same article David Tremayne says:

Ferrari have won this round and are very happy about it, but elsewhere in the paddock there is little respect for a team that literally seems happy to win at any cost.
His is not a minority view.

Who says?

There were another 4 teams at the hearing and they more or less said that things are very clear (see what Koles declared at noon!).

[gm99]

Who says?

There were another 4 teams at the hearing and they more or less said that things are very clear (see what Koles declared at noon!).

Remind me again which engines Spyker run?

[Daniel]

Nobody has yet explained how McLaren can be held responsible for the actions of their employee, and hammered for it, while Ferrari are somehow not responsible for their employee and are presented with the WCC as a reward.

Also, can anyone explain why the two central characters in all of this, Coughlan and Stepney, were not present to given evidence?

Why was Ron Dennis told at Monza "that if he were to retire from the sport, all the teams' problems would go away"? (link (http://sport.independent.co.uk/motor_racing/article2961223.ece))

In the same article David Tremayne says:

His is not a minority view.

Why the heck would the FIA want Ron Dennis to retire :rolleyes: Were they concerned his garden at home wasn't getting enough attention?

The fact remains that some data in that dossier won't be traceable on the car. Namely the data from tyre testing which Brawn said would give them .5 seconds per lap and the alleged inclusion of Ferrari race strategies.

Perhaps the words of two liars and thieves weren't to be believed? :rolleyes:

[kalasend]

I don't get it. I don't get why FIA fines McLaren money when the best they could have done is to spice up the F1 competition again by taking away enough points from McLaren so that both championships fights are revived

[ArrowsFA1]

Why the heck would the FIA want Ron Dennis to retire?
Good question.

[Daniel]

Good question.
Before you go asking questions. Go think of a motive for these alleged actions and how it would benefit the FIA before you go making silly accusations.

[janneppi]

The fact remains that some data in that dossier won't be traceable on the car. Namely the data from tyre testing which Brawn said would give them .5 seconds per lap and the alleged inclusion of Ferrari race strategies.


what do suggest, that FIA should have given penalties because something might have have helped McLaren?

McLaren wasn't the only team to do well after the transition to Bridgestones, BMW have raised their game lot too, did they also "cheat"?

[ArrowsFA1]

Before you go asking questions. Go think of a motive for these alleged actions and how it would benefit the FIA before you go making silly accusations.
I refer you to the relevant part of David Tremayne's article:

...the fact remains that Dennis was told in Monza last weekend that if he were to retire from the sport, all the teams' problems would go away.
Note the use of the word fact, not allegation or accusation, but fact.

[vinileg]

What a masquerade!
Mc Laren is proved guilty of spying and lying repeatedly and insistently over the course of the season, and it’s nevertheless a Mc Laren driver who will be (or should be…) sacred world champion.
Thanks to Ecclestone, Stewart and the entire British racing community at large, cheating may be a good option after all.
More than 600 pages of documents, hundreds of emails, several meetings between Coughlan and Stepney (the Ferrari “Judah”), Ron Denis lies (he previously said Coughlan only was involved), and knowledge of Ferrari setups and other elements by drivers and senior staffs did not constitute enough evidences to penalize Mc Laren drivers.
Read Planet-f1 and Autosport, announcing first on their web sites Mc Laren disqualification for 2007 and 2008, only to retract later (Ecclestone making sure his British pals could go on with business as usual).
What did we learned?
1. Money buys it all.
2. British media sense of fairness and impartiality is questionable, if not improbable.
3. Too much British influence in Formula One.
Personally, in light of all findings, I cannot see Alonso or Hamilton being legitimate world champion. Sorry for them but F1 is a team sport.
I would rather see no financial penalties but the disqualification of Mac Laren team and drivers for the 2007 season.

[pino]

Here's a question to everyone, FIA have found MCLaren guilty right ? Guilty of what ? :confused:

[Ian McC]

Here's a question to everyone, FIA have found MCLaren guilty right ? Guilty of what ? :confused:


Was probably a bit early to put the poll up Pino, people would be voting blind as we really don't know what they are guilty of.

Mind you as many people won't be interested in the facts I suppose it doesn't matter.

[ArrowsFA1]

Here's a question to everyone, FIA have found MCLaren guilty right ? Guilty of what ? :confused:
We don't know yet :dozey: The FIA are apparently telling us more later today.

[Daniel]

I refer you to the relevant part of David Tremayne's article:

Note the use of the word fact, not allegation or accusation, but fact.
David Tremayne is talking out of his rear. As I said give me a motive......

McLaren's problems "disappearing" is a reward for McLaren. Not a motive for the FIA to want to get rid of Ron.

[Daniel]

We don't know yet :dozey: The FIA are apparently telling us more later today.
I hope the egg you'll be wiping off your face won't be too rotten :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

what do suggest, that FIA should have given penalties because something might have have helped McLaren?

McLaren wasn't the only team to do well after the transition to Bridgestones, BMW have raised their game lot too, did they also "cheat"?
My point was that IF McLaren used Ferrari tyre data it could be completely untraceable.

If Ferrari knows that Bridgestones need to be used in a certain way (ie go easy for 3 laps, hammer them for 10 and then go easy for 10 laps) or they'll go off then McLaren's drivers can get an advantage. Or does Ross Brawn know less than the amateur engineers of this forum? :)

Did BMW have Ferrari data in the posession of one of their employees and is there an alleged data trail linking him to the team? :)

[janneppi]

My point was that IF McLaren used Ferrari tyre data it could be completely untraceable.
and therefore any punishment concerning it would have no basis.


If Ferrari knows that Bridgestones need to be used in a certain way (ie go easy for 3 laps, hammer them for 10 and then go easy for 10 laps) or they'll go off then McLaren's drivers can get an advantage. Or does Ross Brawn know less than the amateur engineers of this forum? :)
Perhaps Bridgestone has told McLaren how they should use the tyres best? I know it's a long shot, but stranger things than tyre supplier working with it's customer has happened.

[Daniel]

and therefore any punishment concerning it would have no basis.
Perhaps Bridgestone has told McLaren how they should use the tyres best? I know it's a long shot, but stranger things than tyre supplier working with it's customer has happened.
That's not how it works. If someone has done all the steps up until actually cheating and there are ways in which they could have cheated that would be untraceable then they should be punished because they are dishonest and dishonest people cheat. Just because they weren't dumb enough to build a Ferrari clone doesn't mean they didn't cheat.

That's possible Janneppi. Just as possible as McLaren using Ferrari tyre data illegally. I somehow doubt that Bridgestone spilled all of the data that their long term partner had gained ;)

[Ian McC]

David Tremayne is talking out of his rear. As I said give me a motive......



Really? I would think he knows a hell of a lot more than you do.

[Daniel]

As I said where is the motive? What do the FIA gain from it? If they'd said "Make Lewis retire and your problems will disappear" then it would make sense. AFAIK that site is the only presenting this rumour as "fact" any other site that seems to carry that story says "Apparently a suggestion was made to Ron" and seems to discount it as unlikely.

[redson]

What do you think of this??

Dennis: "I'm not going to make any comment as to the FIA's findings other than the fact that we are firmly of the opinion that we definitely do not concur with their findings.

"But until we have all the details from the FIA, it is impossible for me to have a position on it.

They already don´t know what are they accused off!!!

[ArrowsFA1]

David Tremayne is talking out of his rear.
Why? Because the fact he reports makes uncomfortable reading?

I hope the egg you'll be wiping off your face won't be too rotten :rolleyes:
Daniel, I have consistently maintained that IF McLaren are guilty of using Ferrari's IP then they should be punished.

If, according to what the FIA release today, they are shown to be guilty of using Ferrari's IP then of course I will feel very let down, and of course the opinions that I have maintained here will have been proven to be wrong. That's fine. I can live with that. I don't have a personal interest in any of this other than being a fan of F1, and there's no doubt that F1 as a whole has been damaged by every aspect of this case.

Having said that there remain elements of the case that smell as rotten as the eggs you've mentioned, and those will remain regardless of what the FIA come out with today.

[Daniel]

Why? Because the fact he reports makes uncomfortable reading?

Daniel, I have consistently maintained that IF McLaren are guilty of using Ferrari's IP then they should be punished.

If, according to what the FIA release today, they are shown to be guilty of using Ferrari's IP then of course I will feel very let down, and of course the opinions that I have maintained here will have been proven to be wrong. That's fine. I can live with that. I don't have a personal interest in any of this other than being a fan of F1, and there's no doubt that F1 as a whole has been damaged by every aspect of this case.

Having said that there remain elements of the case that smell as rotten as the eggs you've mentioned, and those will remain regardless of what the FIA come out with today.
Perhaps Tremayne's facts are from the same person who leaked that McLaren were banned for 2007 and 2008? :cheese: The fact remains there there is no motive. If the FIA is out to do something there is always a motive. Both you and I know that.

Clearly F1 has lost out.

If McLaren cheated they've got away lightly because their car will most likely still be driven by the WDC who benefited from cheating be it in the design of the car, knowledge of what Ferrari was doing or tyre data...... Clearly wrong

If McLaren didn't cheat then why have they been fined and lost their points?

It truly was a black day for F1. Either cheating was rewarded or there was a miscarriage of justice. Take your pick. Either way it stinks of eggs. We agree on this at least.

[redson]

Umm, and I forgot, if McLaren car is illegal, why LH and FA still can use it for the rest of the season instead of last year's car??
This is so silly...

[BeansBeansBeans]

Umm, and I forgot, if McLaren car is illegal, why LH and FA still can use it for the rest of the season instead of last year's car??
This is so silly...

McLaren's car isn't illegal.

Or rather, there isn't any evidence to suggest it is illegal.

[SGWilko]

You know, it says something doesn't it when the 'Authority on Motorsport' uses the term Ferrari International Assistance in connection with the FIA. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62292)

What bothers me the most, is how Ferrari seem to know so much information about email exchanges within McLaren, to warrant asking the FIA to demand the info from the McLaren drivers. I would hazard a guess that Ferrari are actually spying on McLaren.

Are Ferrari really that desperate? They wont win the real championship this year (WDC), and really, does anyone here really care who wins the WCC? I mean, in a season where a driver from one team wins the WDC, but a different manufacture wins the WCC, I only am interested in the winning driver. Just who is pressurising Ferrari so much?

What we do know, is that Cloughlan was passed (he did not actively seek, so I understand) a dossier of papers on Ferrari designs by Stepney. You would assume that Stepney has been doing the stealing.......

Now, in terms of 'cheating' in the form of 'spying' or using 'intellectual property' on their car - hands up who can go into detail and give a definitive answer as to what, on the McLaren, has come from Ferrari.

So, someone has said brake bias. How blinkered exactly are you? The brake bias is altered regularly by the driver throughout the race, to suit the different characteristics of the track. It may coincide that at some point the bias percentages front and rear may be the same as Ferrari, so what?

Weight distribution. How is that going to work, the Ferrari has the longest wheelbase this year (I think), so how would their weight distribution apply to the McLaren exactly?

Funamental design. If the dosiier was given to Coughlan in March, but the McLaren is already designed and built (and racing) I don't recall McLaren issuing a B - Spec car using Ferrari data, anyone?

Untill the FIA publish the detailed reasons for the sanctions and fine, and the evidence they used and how it was procured, I think that the original verdict should stand - namely that yes, the docs were in Coughlan's possession, but had not been used by McLaren.

Now, for all you Tifosi on this thread, don't just go into a rage and say, yes, they did use Ferrari data, prove it. Because justice and the law predominantly rely on the fundamental idea of Burden of Proof.

It has long been documented Mad Max's dislike of Ron. Just look at Mosely's family history to get a feel for the guy. In my opinion, I feel he has a personal agenda in all of this, such bias has been commented on by other factions in F1 circles. Max has also been on record in the past as stating his opinion that Todt would make an ideal successor at the helm of the FIA. Read into that what you like......

Also, can anyone show me where/when McLaren have actually been spying on Ferrari?

It is about time Ferrari got their house in order, concentrated on reliability and winning races rather than instigating FIA sponsored witch hunts.

Oh, and would you, as a team owner be happy to be gifted the constructors championship, knowing that ordinarily, without the help of the FIA, you were unable to win it?

Poor, very poor indeed. And the real losers? F1 and the most important people of all, us, the fans.

[Daniel]

The fact that Max's dad was a Fascist is irrelevant. I find it laughable that people bring it up on this forum.......

[Valve Bounce]

This is all so depressing. :( :(

[ArrowsFA1]

The fact remains there there is no motive. If the FIA is out to do something there is always a motive.
Indeed. It's just that we don't know what that motive was. Whoever made the offer should be made to explain why it was made. I suspect they would be expected to do so had this been a court of law.

We could speculate that it has something to do with the personal enmity between Mosley and Dennis which has been widely reported.

Perhaps Ron has not been particularly receptive to some of Max's plans for F1 and his removal would ease the way for these to be pushed through.

Perhaps Ron's resignation could sweep this mess under the carpet as the fact of the resignation would be seen as acceptance of culpability.

Who knows? The fact remains that Dennis did not accept the offer of a 'way out' for his team, and we have seen what has subsequently happened to McLaren.


The fact that Max's dad was a Fascist is irrelevant. I find it laughable that people bring it up on this forum.......
:up:

[jas123f1]

Here's a question to everyone, FIA have found MCLaren guilty right ? Guilty of what ? :confused:

:?: :?: :?: what’s the price for a point?

Probably they found McLaren guilty to have and using “confidential Ferrari developed technology” ??..

However - if that’s the case then FIA must answer to a 100 million US$ question - WHY McLaren can have any points left?

Or if that wasn’t the case – WHY that hard penalty.. were is the logic in the verdict?

Are they guilty or not? It’s not possible to be “half guilty” in cases like that.. either are you a cheater or you are not …

How nice is it to win WDC title if a whole world is saying “It was made by cheating and baying points” from FIA. It doesn’t help to pay big money for it - cheating is cheating …


If McLaren are cheating in 2007 year’s championship – then they are cheaters.. and out with them for 2007 season .. or .. if they haven’t been cheating then they should have all their points left..

But what is this? Can they bay a WDC title with big big money??

Maybe the judgment also was too hard when if we are speaking only about money, but it was definitely unclear when we are speaking of the points.

I must say - I don’t get it … FIA found them guilty to what??

[SGWilko]

laughable

:laugh:

[BeansBeansBeans]

The fact that Max's dad was a Fascist is irrelevant. I find it laughable that people bring it up on this forum.......

Yes, I'd agree with that, but otherwise I thought it was a good post.

[BeansBeansBeans]

This is all so depressing.

Isn't it just?

This whole issue has soured an excellent season.

[SGWilko]

There was an interesting front page article in a freebie morning paper in London - The Metro.

It was attempting to see how the fine of such size could be justified, and compared it to a fine imposed on a Railway maintenance firm, who were found guilty of H&S breaches that led to the death of 31 passengers.

In that instance, the fine was £4million........

[Daniel]

Indeed. It's just that we don't know what that motive was. Whoever made the offer should be made to explain why it was made. I suspect they would be expected to do so had this been a court of law.

We could speculate that it has something to do with the personal enmity between Mosley and Dennis which has been widely reported.

Perhaps Ron has not been particularly receptive to some of Max's plans for F1 and his removal would ease the way for these to be pushed through.

Perhaps Ron's resignation could sweep this mess under the carpet as the fact of the resignation would be seen as acceptance of culpability.

Who knows? The fact remains that Dennis did not accept the offer of a 'way out' for his team, and we have seen what has subsequently happened to McLaren.


:up:
The fact that it's only been reported on one site that I can see leads me to think it might not be "fact" :) Lets wait until Ron confirms it before we go into the tin foil hat realms of conspiracy theorism ;)

I hope we agree that the Boks should crush England tonight ;) If we don't then a pox upon you Arrows ;)

[Daniel]

Isn't it just?

This whole issue has soured an excellent season.
But if the basis for the "excitement" (McLaren doing well) is cheating then was the season not already sour then?

[SGWilko]

The fact that Max's dad was a Fascist is irrelevant. I find it laughable that people bring it up on this forum.......

I think that is a case in point. Like Father like Son? Whilst you may not agree in the behaviour of your parent(s), there are fundamental traits that follow.

And I was careful not to mention his Fathers political agenda or sway.

I do think however that Max's abuse of power is starting to bubble ever further to the surface. Is he aspiring to emulate the iron rule of a certain JMB?

[Daniel]

You know, it says something doesn't it when the 'Authority on Motorsport' uses the term Ferrari International Assistance in connection with the FIA. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62292)

What bothers me the most, is how Ferrari seem to know so much information about email exchanges within McLaren, to warrant asking the FIA to demand the info from the McLaren drivers. I would hazard a guess that Ferrari are actually spying on McLaren.

Are Ferrari really that desperate? They wont win the real championship this year (WDC), and really, does anyone here really care who wins the WCC? I mean, in a season where a driver from one team wins the WDC, but a different manufacture wins the WCC, I only am interested in the winning driver. Just who is pressurising Ferrari so much?

What we do know, is that Cloughlan was passed (he did not actively seek, so I understand) a dossier of papers on Ferrari designs by Stepney. You would assume that Stepney has been doing the stealing.......

Now, in terms of 'cheating' in the form of 'spying' or using 'intellectual property' on their car - hands up who can go into detail and give a definitive answer as to what, on the McLaren, has come from Ferrari.

So, someone has said brake bias. How blinkered exactly are you? The brake bias is altered regularly by the driver throughout the race, to suit the different characteristics of the track. It may coincide that at some point the bias percentages front and rear may be the same as Ferrari, so what?

Weight distribution. How is that going to work, the Ferrari has the longest wheelbase this year (I think), so how would their weight distribution apply to the McLaren exactly?

Funamental design. If the dosiier was given to Coughlan in March, but the McLaren is already designed and built (and racing) I don't recall McLaren issuing a B - Spec car using Ferrari data, anyone?

Untill the FIA publish the detailed reasons for the sanctions and fine, and the evidence they used and how it was procured, I think that the original verdict should stand - namely that yes, the docs were in Coughlan's possession, but had not been used by McLaren.

Now, for all you Tifosi on this thread, don't just go into a rage and say, yes, they did use Ferrari data, prove it. Because justice and the law predominantly rely on the fundamental idea of Burden of Proof.

It has long been documented Mad Max's dislike of Ron. Just look at Mosely's family history to get a feel for the guy. In my opinion, I feel he has a personal agenda in all of this, such bias has been commented on by other factions in F1 circles. Max has also been on record in the past as stating his opinion that Todt would make an ideal successor at the helm of the FIA. Read into that what you like......

Also, can anyone show me where/when McLaren have actually been spying on Ferrari?

It is about time Ferrari got their house in order, concentrated on reliability and winning races rather than instigating FIA sponsored witch hunts.

Oh, and would you, as a team owner be happy to be gifted the constructors championship, knowing that ordinarily, without the help of the FIA, you were unable to win it?

Poor, very poor indeed. And the real losers? F1 and the most important people of all, us, the fans.
Your post is silly. You simply dismiss a lot of things that experts have said (Brawn's comments on tyre data for instance) and insert a lot of probably's, I suspects and a lot of hazarding of guesses. Lets work on fact and leave speculation for sites which report false news too fast :)

[BeansBeansBeans]

But if the basis for the "excitement" (McLaren doing well) is cheating then was the season not already sour then?

The basis for McLaren's success in 2007 has not been cheating.

McLaren are guilty of having Ferrari data in their possesion, but the 2007 car was designed, built and extensively tested (during which their pace was already apparent) long before Coughlan obtained the dossier.

[Daniel]

I think that is a case in point. Like Father like Son? Whilst you may not agree in the behaviour of your parent(s), there are fundamental traits that follow.

And I was careful not to mention his Fathers political agenda or sway.

I do think however that Max's abuse of power is starting to bubble ever further to the surface. Is he aspiring to emulate the iron rule of a certain JMB?
Fascism isn't genetic. What his father did or what his father's political views were was irrelevant. Stuff can be handed down but lets not be so moronic as to assume that a son is automatically like his father. Oswald's Fascism is an interesting sidenote to the story of his son at best.

[Daniel]

The basis for McLaren's success in 2007 has not been cheating.

McLaren are guilty of having Ferrari data in their possesion, but the 2007 car was designed, built and extensively tested (during which their pace was already apparent) long before Coughlan obtained the dossier.
What about the alleged knowledge of tyre data and also of Ferrari race strategy? Lets wait for the information before we go on about how McLaren are innocent of all charges ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

I hope we agree that the Boks should crush England tonight ;)
We do :D :s mokin:

[Ian McC]

I doubt this is over yet.

If the details come out and there is no real evidence that the data was used then McLaren must surely appeal, anything less is an admission of guilt.

[redson]

You know, it says something doesn't it when the 'Authority on Motorsport' uses the term Ferrari International Assistance in connection with the FIA. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62292)

What bothers me the most, is how Ferrari seem to know so much information about email exchanges within McLaren, to warrant asking the FIA to demand the info from the McLaren drivers. I would hazard a guess that Ferrari are actually spying on McLaren.

Are Ferrari really that desperate? They wont win the real championship this year (WDC), and really, does anyone here really care who wins the WCC? I mean, in a season where a driver from one team wins the WDC, but a different manufacture wins the WCC, I only am interested in the winning driver. Just who is pressurising Ferrari so much?

What we do know, is that Cloughlan was passed (he did not actively seek, so I understand) a dossier of papers on Ferrari designs by Stepney. You would assume that Stepney has been doing the stealing.......

Now, in terms of 'cheating' in the form of 'spying' or using 'intellectual property' on their car - hands up who can go into detail and give a definitive answer as to what, on the McLaren, has come from Ferrari.

So, someone has said brake bias. How blinkered exactly are you? The brake bias is altered regularly by the driver throughout the race, to suit the different characteristics of the track. It may coincide that at some point the bias percentages front and rear may be the same as Ferrari, so what?

Weight distribution. How is that going to work, the Ferrari has the longest wheelbase this year (I think), so how would their weight distribution apply to the McLaren exactly?

Funamental design. If the dosiier was given to Coughlan in March, but the McLaren is already designed and built (and racing) I don't recall McLaren issuing a B - Spec car using Ferrari data, anyone?

Untill the FIA publish the detailed reasons for the sanctions and fine, and the evidence they used and how it was procured, I think that the original verdict should stand - namely that yes, the docs were in Coughlan's possession, but had not been used by McLaren.

Now, for all you Tifosi on this thread, don't just go into a rage and say, yes, they did use Ferrari data, prove it. Because justice and the law predominantly rely on the fundamental idea of Burden of Proof.

It has long been documented Mad Max's dislike of Ron. Just look at Mosely's family history to get a feel for the guy. In my opinion, I feel he has a personal agenda in all of this, such bias has been commented on by other factions in F1 circles. Max has also been on record in the past as stating his opinion that Todt would make an ideal successor at the helm of the FIA. Read into that what you like......

Also, can anyone show me where/when McLaren have actually been spying on Ferrari?

It is about time Ferrari got their house in order, concentrated on reliability and winning races rather than instigating FIA sponsored witch hunts.

Oh, and would you, as a team owner be happy to be gifted the constructors championship, knowing that ordinarily, without the help of the FIA, you were unable to win it?

Poor, very poor indeed. And the real losers? F1 and the most important people of all, us, the fans.

I agree completely with you

[ArrowsFA1]

Our spies in the FIA World Council meeting have revealed that there are going to be some surprises when the details come to light next week. We understand that the most extraordinary revelation will be in relation to the identity of the man who tipped off the FIA that there was additional evidence against McLaren: it was none other than Ron Dennis.
It appears that this strange turn of affairs came about because Dennis and Fernando Alonso argued about the details of the Spaniard's contract. Alonso seems to have mentioned that he was in possession of information that might be of interest to the FIA. In order to deprive Alonso of this rather unsavoury negotiating tool and negate the possibility of anyone else using it against McLaren and because it was the right thing to do Dennis reported the information to the FIA in the hope that his display of good faith would underline the fact that the team has been honest throughout the investigation.
It is anticipated that this will be confirmed when the transcripts of the case come to light next week.
If this is indeed the case, Fernando Alonso's image as a simple, nice fellow is going to take quite a hit.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19649.html

[Ian McC]

If this is indeed the case, Fernando Alonso's image as a simple, nice fellow is going to take quite a hit.

I think that went some time ago now.

[Daniel]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19649.html
Could all fit in with Alonso not being there to be humiliated in front of the FIA :) I think Alonso lost his "good guy" image when he did what he did to Lewis. I wonder how many of those Mercedes ads showing the healthy level of friendly competition between Lewis and Fernando will be aired now and in the future? :cheese:

[555-04Q2]

I must say, as a Ferrari fan, I am shocked at the severity of the verdict. I feel for Mclaren and Ron Dennis (yes fellow Ferrari fans I have officially gone mad).

I cannot believe that the FIA think Mclaren are the only ones "cheating" in F1.

I am saddened by this sad state of affairs :(

[Buzz Lightyear]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19649.html

This is serious stuff!! Alonso reputation is in the gutter. I wonder will any of this fine be taken from Alonso pay packet. I suggest, after this episode, he wil no longer be at McLaren next year.

[Hondo]

I must say, as a Ferrari fan, I am shocked at the severity of the verdict. I feel for Mclaren and Ron Dennis (yes fellow Ferrari fans I have officially gone mad).

I cannot believe that the FIA think Mclaren are the only ones "cheating" in F1.

I am saddened by this sad state of affairs :(

This is the last for me. As a former Ferrari fan, I think the whole thing is pathetic, mainly on Ferrari's part. It would appear the only "truth" Ferrari was interested in was being gifted the Constructor's Championship. I guess they didn't feel the need for enough "truth" to get one of their drivers a gifted championship also. The FIA didn't need to be so harsh. They could have popped McLaren with enough points loss to come in second and a $5000.00 fine and Ferrari would have been happy with that truth also.

Sadly, Ferrari wasn't going to let this be until they were gifted that which they couldn't win.

[Flat.tyres]

I suppose I'm not really surprised. It looks like a FIA hanging trial.

What evidence is there that McLaren incorporated info into the car. None.

What is different from the last hearing is what I want to know.

When I see evidence that McLaren cheated, I will agree with the punishment but until then, this looks like a farce.

[Buzz Lightyear]

When I see evidence that McLaren cheated, I will agree with the punishment but until then, this looks like a farce.

Looks like a personal vendetta between Max and Ron.

[F1boat]

Why? McLaren were in possession of stolen Ferrari info. That's all. They stole it. If they didn't want the info, they would have reported all to FIA.
Grand Prix.com, BTW, is extremely biased in favour of McLaren. Same with P-F1. Their patriotism is nauseating.

[sal]

No further comment needed...

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/

[Daniel]

No further comment needed...

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/
Classic :laugh:

[Buzz Lightyear]

Why? McLaren were in possession of stolen Ferrari info. That's all. They stole it. If they didn't want the info, they would have reported all to FIA.
Grand Prix.com, BTW, is extremely biased in favour of McLaren. Same with P-F1. Their patriotism is nauseating.

No more than the FIA towards Ferrari.

They nonetheless raised a very important question... if mclaren are guilty of their personel were in possession of Ferrari material, then Ferrari are guilty, or at least responsible for the actions of their employees, namely Nigel Stepney....

[Daniel]

No more than the FIA towards Ferrari.

They nonetheless raised a very important question... if mclaren are guilty of their personel were in possession of Ferrari material, then Ferrari are guilty, or at least responsible for the actions of their employees, namely Nigel Stepney....
Why do people use that stupid argument? If not caught Mclaren would have benefitted and Ferrari would have lost out. Silly argument at best.

[MAX_THRUST]

Dear F1 boat, ah you made me laugh so hard a minute ago when I read your post, the picture in my mind of ron Dennis in a strippey jumper and a sack over his shoulder with the words SWAG written on it, breaking into Ferrari's Modena headquarters tying up That little french bloke and legging it out the building with technical informqation after theseason started, OH you are a card!!!!

C'mon, be serious man. Who stole what? I believe you'll find it was gift from Mr Stepney to his former friend, Mike who worked at MAC. Funny that, Stepney was going to drop other Ferrari employees in it, why who told him to pass the info across to Mike???? SET UP!!! Stepney, Mike, all to get at Ron. Do you want a quote, here's one,

That which does not kill us makes us stronger....

Ferrari might have won this years constructors championship, but how many fans will feel it was gained inappropriately, alot like the info Ron stole, I suppose!!!

F1 has gone mad and everyone thinks so, unless your living in fantasy land.

[markabilly]

The fact that Max's dad was a Fascist is irrelevant. I find it laughable that people bring it up on this forum.......


Perhaps laughable BUT many many facists looked to a certain Italian for quidance..........

What I find so funny is how everyone is still seeking logic, justice or just a simple clue to have some understanding about what happened yesterday in the context of logic and common sense, or in the context of tech being protected or FA ratting out ...or whatever

you really want to understand what happened you need to turn to that same Italian.......

I correctly predited what would happen well before the hearing. That prediction diod not rely on truth, justice, or even having a clue about whther FA ratted, the floor being legal or illegal, mountains of evidence for or against a "benefit", but that F1 has a huge PR problem, it was getting worse, the itlailian police were busy pulling email traffic (which is what they should have done as basic standard police work!!!)

yet bernie was repeatedly saying how he would "love" to see Hamilton WDC because he perceives hamiton being dark skinned will open a whole new market to people and countries with dark skin ......so how do you punish Mac without dragging down the drivers? :confused:

Besides even fans like me who can recite the name of every WDC from fangio to FA, and usually get the year correct, just like reciting the alphabet, I have very little ability to tell you what car they were driving for each year...and have NO ABILITY to tell you who won the WCC for each of those years...


My answer was simple: I looked to that same Italian for quidance...

and there is the answer for stating exactly why I said, do not worry about LH as being affected by 9-13-2007------"However, due the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points "

i could go on about the lack of logic in such a statement (and outside the world of that Italian), the logic is totally lacking, I agree it makes no sense or true justice...epsecially since for next year the macs are to be specially examained to be free of ferrari IP for 2008, but they can continue to use the same cars for this year and so on.....justice hahaha :crazy:

And not only FA is just a convient fall guy that distracts everyone, if FA had been the only driver still in contention for the WDC, and hamilton was too far behind to have a chance, immunity would never have been offered
because not enough money there if he wins the wdc...... :eek:

Besides if they really wanted the inside info on exactly who did what, the proper logic would dictate that the person who should be offerred immunity was Paddy, not some driver....

But how do I know this?
Link please as many of you ask?

Answer look to the same Italian.... political philosopher Nicolò Machiavelli of almost 500 years ago---you can know 0 times one million about f1, but if you know well the sacred teachings of master philosopher Nicolò Machiavelli, any of you could have correctly predicted exactly what happenned and correctly predict who will win this year's WDC

:vader:

[F1boat]

No more than the FIA towards Ferrari.

.

Yeah, that's why they changed their tests after Australia...
McLaren fans sound just like Milan fans a year ago.

[ArrowsFA1]

Why do people use that stupid argument?
Simply because it's about one employer being held to account for the actions of one of their employees, and the same not being true for another employer.

[ioan]

Why do people use that stupid argument?

What do you think?! ;)

[Daniel]

Simply because it's about one employer being held to account for the actions of one of their employees, and the same not being true for another employer.
Ok lets make sense of it.

In the 1st hearing the FIA acknowledged that a Ferrari employee and a McLaren employee did the wrong thing. But they I think correctly didn't give any penalty. NOW we can only assume they found evidence that McLaren used the data.

So that argument is absolute rubbish because the FIA previously said it was individuals only so no penalty. Ferrari wasn't involved as a team. McLaren was?

The argument is something that comes out of a bulls bottom.

Nobody has yet explained how McLaren can be held responsible for the actions of their employee, and hammered for it, while Ferrari are somehow not responsible for their employee and are presented with the WCC as a reward.

Unbelievable.

First of all, you cannot seriously be so hard of understanding not to comprehend that Stepney acted to the detriment of his employers and completely without their knowledge, whereas Coughlan was suspended when it became public, not when his team knew he had the documents.

That is the vital and glaringly obvious difference.

If you cannot see the difference, then you should be embarrassed.

Thankfully, the FIA could see the difference and rightfully have judged Ron Dennis to be a liar.

[ioan]

Simply because it's about one employer being held to account for the actions of one of their employees, and the same not being true for another employer.

I'm yet to find the legal system where the victims are convicted for what happened to them. Maybe in the UK it's like that judging by the reaction of people around here?! :rolleyes:

[bontebempo]

this clip in Austin powers reminds me of the FIA LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY

a kagillion dollars!!! hahaha. Maybe the FIA will hold the world to ransom one day. Where does the cash go anyway?

Simply because it's about one employer being held to account for the actions of one of their employees, and the same not being true for another employer.

Mclaren should have informed the FIA the moment that management became aware that one of their employees had a dossier of Ferrari information.

Ferrari did not have to inform the FIA because none of their employees had a dossier on Mclaren.

Seriously, you should be ashamed not to be able to comprehend that.

[pino]

Let's continue this in a nice way... without starting to insult other members. Thank you !

[ioan]

Seriously, you should be ashamed not to be able to comprehend that.

He's pretty much able to understand it, he simply doesn't want to.

[pino]

Also keep personal comments off here :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Stepney acted to the detriment of his employers and completely without their knowledge, whereas Coughlan was suspended when it became public, not when his team knew he had the documents.
Regardless, the principle was established early on that a team (any team) is responsible for, and should be held to account for, the actions of their employees whether they are aware of those actions or not.

Therefore, Stepney acting without the knowledge of his team is not a defence, whether he was acting in Ferrari's interests or not, particularly as without him (allegedly) taking the actions he did we would not be where we are now.

[MAX_THRUST]

Just because Ferrari said Stepney did XYZ does not mean he did? Same as Mike having infomation he shouldn't

My boss is sleeping with his secretary but I don't tell his wife.
My boss is being investigated by the police on charges of fraud, I have information that will seal the case, but I will loose my job, so I'll wait a while longer and see if it blows over, I have to much to loose. (not factual)

So what if Ron and the team didn't say" here we have that info "as they know they would need to speak with solicitors and would have a lot to loose by being in possesion of such material.

Again that brings me back to why/how does Ferrari allow material of such nature to be leaked???? Or was it done on purpose to deliberately cause a situation against their main rival. All specualtion, but how do you kow anyone is telling the truth. We don't. The information leaked by Ferrari may not have been correct and may have been to send other teams down the wrong track.

Either way there is a rivalry now that will go on and on, for years because of this.

[Bagwan]

When Stepney handed the documents to Coughlan , he was working for McLaren , as it was against Ferrari's best interests .


This is a stupid mess that will be used by both sides in arguments , ad nauseum , to illustrate the competence/incompetence of the FIA , the bias of the FIA , and the integrity of all involved .



I intensely hope for , but , sadly , do not expect clear logic to be involved in the report on proceedings .

[Daniel]

Regardless, the principle was established early on that a team (any team) is responsible for, and should be held to account for, the actions of their employees whether they are aware of those actions or not.

Therefore, Stepney acting without the knowledge of his team is not a defence, whether he was acting in Ferrari's interests or not, particularly as without him (allegedly) taking the actions he did we would not be where we are now.
If we followed logic like that you could just get one of your employees to go over to another team and then cry foul when he does something illegal on purpose...... :mark:

[airshifter]

It is amazing how many are showing bias without evidence, and comdemning both McLaren and/or Ferrari. Worse yet is that it has degraded to insults and personal attacks by some.

Thumbs up to those waiting to see what this decision has been based on. While we debate on these forums, I suspect that the worldwide image of F1, two teams, and several drivers might be at stake.

While I wanted Kimi to win the title this year, more than anything I want the winning driver and the world to know that they did it in a sporting manner. It would be terrible for any of these drivers to know that their WDC will always be tarnished, especially for those for who it would be a first title.

Regardless, the principle was established early on that a team (any team) is responsible for, and should be held to account for, the actions of their employees whether they are aware of those actions or not.



It is not 'regardless', it is basic and fundamental.

Ferrari cannot be responsible for the actions of Stepney as those actions did not in any way allow Ferrari to gain information. Mclaren can be responsible for not acting to prevent the information sent by Stepney from not being returned post haste.

I can understand that you don't want to comprehend that, but that's the way it works

[ArrowsFA1]

Mclaren should have informed the FIA the moment that management became aware that one of their employees had a dossier of Ferrari information.
Ignoring the fact they did so, do you think timing makes any difference? Isn't possession the crime? Isn't it true that once Stepney sent/gave the dossier to Coughlan McLaren were sunk, regardless of when/how they reported it to the FIA?

Allegations, suspicions, accusations of theft and use would have followed regardless of timing.

[ArrowsFA1]

If we followed logic like that you could just get one of your employees to go over to another team and then cry foul when he does something illegal on purpose...... :mark:
Well, how exactly have the FIA prevented one team sending a 'brown envelope' to another then crying foul in the future? After all possession = guilt doesn't it?

[markabilly]

As taught by Machiavelli:

the only acceptable end (goal) is the stabilization and health of the state. In this case the end is to preserve the wealth of F1 and bernie, max and so forth.
Personal vendattas have no place as an acceptable end....

It is sometimes necessary to be cruel to preserve that state, but one must do it without appearing to be so. To do this requires a scapegoat, two or more is sometimes better, and it is essential that the appearance of the actions were forced by evil actions of others and made necessary to preserve justice, and never wealth.

It is also essential to avoid the appearance of greed on the part of the state, although that greed in terms of enhancing the health of the state is the essential end or goal of the action.

Distraction and scapegoats serve that purpose where people argue over apparent merits that have provided the excuse and appearance of the necessity of the actions.

Examples of distraction:

Is RD a liar?
Is MC a thief?
Is FA a dirty dog rat?
Did Mac benefit?

True reasons:
1. preserve income
2. Eliminate a thorn in form of RD who has been in the past, been a real problem in threatening the health of F1 with his "breakaway" and now with his current issues

What reveal the most about what happened?
1. Short hearing
2. The immunity grant

Are the concerns of many who are expressing themsleves on the merits of the facts of this case important?

heckfire YES, very very important, and i agree with most of what people are fussing over the substantive merits--but outside of the distraction impact, they have nothing to do with what happened yesterday, and you are failing to see what really happenned was a brilliant excercise of Machiavellian politics........

[Daniel]

Well, how exactly have the FIA prevented one team sending a 'brown envelope' to another then crying foul in the future? After all possession = guilt doesn't it?
If you got a brown envelope with another teams documents in there with a Modena postmark on it would you be stupid enough to use it?

Ignoring the fact they did so, do you think timing makes any difference? Isn't possession the crime? Isn't it true that once Stepney sent/gave the dossier to Coughlan McLaren were sunk, regardless of when/how they reported it to the FIA?

Allegations, suspicions, accusations of theft and use would have followed regardless of timing.

The answer to that is simple.

There would have been no allegations towards Mclaren. It would have been a simple case of Stepney leaking info and Coughlan receiving it.

The reasons why there were allegations was because Mclaren did not act straight away.

[ArrowsFA1]

There would have been no allegations towards Mclaren. It would have been a simple case of Stepney leaking info and Coughlan receiving it.
It would be nice to think that were true.

Are the concerns of many who are expressing themsleves on the merits of the facts of this case important?

heckfire YES, very very important, and i agree with most of what people are fussing over the substantive merits--but outside of the distraction impact, they have nothing to do with what happened yesterday, and you are failing to see what really happenned was a brilliant excercise of Machiavellian politics........
I don't disagree, and your predictions were close to the mark ;)

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19649.html
Apparently, according to the Speed TV broadcast today this story is true and has been confirmed by one of their sources. They added that Alonso's "blackmail" request included #1 status and having Hamilton suspended and replaced by another driver for the remainder of the season. They later said that if true, they are surprised that Alonso is in the car.

:eek:

[Daniel]

It would be nice to think that were true.

I don't disagree, and your predictions were close to the mark ;)

Apparently, according to the Speed TV broadcast today this story is true and has been confirmed by one of their sources. They added that Alonso's "blackmail" request included #1 status and having Hamilton suspended and replaced by another driver for the remainder of the season. They later said that if true, they are surprised that Alonso is in the car.

:eek:
I think that sort of thing should carry a life bad from driving if it's true. Perhaps I'm a bit harsh but I value fair play and good sportsmanship.

[Knumai]

Why is it anyone's fault at McLaren for receiving a parcel and not opening it?

Admittedly they did wrong by keeping the information, and not reporting they had it, but if they have not actually used the information then there should be no punishment for that aspect of the case against them.

[pino]

Apparently, according to the Speed TV broadcast today this story is true and has been confirmed by one of their sources. They added that Alonso's "blackmail" request included #1 status and having Hamilton suspended and replaced by another driver for the remainder of the season. They later said that if true, they are surprised that Alonso is in the car.

:eek:

Part of this story have been confirmed by Studio Sport (ital channel) today...

[Daniel]

Why is it anyone's fault at McLaren for receiving a parcel and not opening it?

Admittedly they did wrong by keeping the information, and not reporting they had it, but if they have not actually used the information then there should be no punishment for that aspect of the case against them.
The dossier didn't simply arrive in the mail. People are merely using that as an example of what could happen.

[ICKE]

This is what was said in the Finnish F1 broadcast.


De la Rosa asked from Coughlan what the weight distribution was in the Ferrari cars so that he could use it in the simulator. Alonso asked where this information was coming from. to which De la Rosa responded that it was coming from Stepney, THE SAME PERSON WHO TOLD MCLAREN THAT KIMI WAS GOING TO HAVE HIS FIRST STOP IN LAP 18 IN MELBOURNE.

Cheating scum should have been banned for 2 years.

[Ranger]

Perhaps I'm a bit harsh but I value fair play and good sportsmanship.

Hah! F1 is the wrong sport for you then. :laugh: :p :

[Daniel]

Hah! F1 is the wrong sport for you then. :laugh: :p :
Which is why I follow the WRC and watch the occasional F1 race ;)

[Ranger]

Which is why I follow the WRC and watch the occasional F1 race ;)
That's about the first time in this thread that logic has prevailed. :s hock: :p :

[SGWilko]

Why? McLaren were in possession of stolen Ferrari info. That's all. They stole it. If they didn't want the info, they would have reported all to FIA.
Grand Prix.com, BTW, is extremely biased in favour of McLaren. Same with P-F1. Their patriotism is nauseating.

Let me guess, you don't read so good huh?

Cloughlan had the info, acting on his own, not McLaren.

[ICKE]

Official FIA material - Finnish TV:

Alonso: "Can we trust this? (Ferrari weight distribution)"

Pedro: "Yes. It's from Stepney, the same guy who told us when Kimi is going to make his pitstop in Australia."

---

Pedro: "Ferrari is using this gas mixture in their tyres, Stepney told us."

Alonso: "We have to try it as soon as possible.

[markabilly]

It would be nice to think that were true.

I don't disagree, and your predictions were close to the mark ;)

Apparently, according to the Speed TV broadcast today this story is true and has been confirmed by one of their sources. They added that Alonso's "blackmail" request included #1 status and having Hamilton suspended and replaced by another driver for the remainder of the season. They later said that if true, they are surprised that Alonso is in the car.

:eek:


Part of this story have been confirmed by Studio Sport (ital channel) today...


NO WAY

ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THIS IS TRUE!!!


1) If (and i guess that is a big "if") the italian police were doing a thoruogh job, the email traffic was going to see daylight...regardless of this

2) No way that RD and FA have such a conversation, it would be such an incredibly stupid thing

3) If they did, then FA does not need to worry about his personal personna taking a hit in the eye of the public.

He needs to worry about his freedom taking a hit...as in most jurisdictions, blackmail is a felony with serious prison time.

It is a form of bribery, if you bribe me, I will remain silent about my being a witness to your crimes.

If the request for a bribe is honored, it is called witness tampering and obstruction of justice in the USA against the person who pays the bribe, and both should do some serious prison time as in felony convictions......

I guess maybe RD been reading my posts about failing to report a crime is in and of itself, a crime and make one an acccessory after the fact.

Paying or failing to report the demand for a bribe .....whatever lawyer told RD to come clean on that, did RD a big favor!!!

Under the federal sentencing guidelines (if the crime happened here) given the amount of money and benefit to be gained to FA, he would be looking at ten to twenty years, minimum.......just ask Vick the QB about what happened to him over a little dogfighting..... :eek:

However after doing his ten to twenty, FA should not have that held against him, and he should be free to chase after his third wdc (just like people say that as soon as Vick does his time, he should go back to being a qb for Atlanta Falcons in the NFL)

But I say there is NO WAY this is true!!!

[ICKE]

Alonso should lose his super-license for that.

[ArrowsFA1]

The full decision of the World Motor Sport Council hearing of September 13th is now available here (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/September/140907-01.html).


A complete transcript of the July 26th and September 13th hearings will be published next week on the FIA web site after both McLaren and Ferrari have been given the opportunity to redact any confidential technical information prior to publication.

http://www.fia.com

[Daniel]

http://www.fia.com
Haha it all comes out....

[ICKE]

Double-post.

[ICKE]

3.5 On 21 March 2007 at 09.57 Mr. de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan in the following
terms:
“Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car’s Weight Distribution? It would be
important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in
advance, Pedro.
p.s. I will be in the simulator tomorrow.”

3.6 In his evidence given to the WMSC, Mr. de la Rosa confirmed that Coughlan
replied by text message with precise details of Ferrari’s weight distribution.

3.7 On 25 March 2007 at 01.43 Mr. de la Rosa sent an e-mail to Fernando Alonso
which sets out Ferrari’s weight distribution to two decimal places on each of
Ferrari’s two cars as set up for the Australian Grand Prix.

3.8 Mr. Alonso replied to this e-mail on 25 March 2007 at 12.31 (they were in
different time zones). His e-mail includes a section headed “Ferrari” in which he
says “its weight distribution surprises me; I don’t know either if it’s 100%
reliable, but at least it draws attention”. The e-mail continues with a discussion
of how McLaren’s weight distribution compares with Ferrari’s.

3.9 Mr. de la Rosa replied on 25 March 2007 13.02 stating the following:
“All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney,
their former chief mechanic – I don’t know what post he holds now. He’s the
same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He’s very
friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that.”

If this isnt damning then what is? Mclaren should have been DQ`d for two years.

[jens]

Here was a question that why should McLaren be punished if they didn't use the data that they possessed.

Well, if someone had stolen my TV, but the thief hasn't watched that, then he should be declared as innocent?

[Flat.tyres]

Sorry

[Daniel]

Again, we seem to be confusing the actual facts of the arguement.

Can anyone here provide any evidence to back up the claim that McLaren used, or even had knowledge of the 780 page dossier prior to them being told about it because we have Coughlan saying that he never passed any information on to anyone about the Dossier.

We have the previous emails from Stepney that were made availible to McLaren and was the basis for the request from McLaren regarding the moveable floor.

Lets look at the information at hand before jumping to conclusions. Please distinguish between the dossier which appears to have not left the knowledge of MC and the emails preceeding it which were acknowledged by McLaren.
Read the FIA judgement. There will be sooooo much egg on your face it's not funny......

[Malbec]

It would be nice to think that were true.

I don't disagree, and your predictions were close to the mark ;)

Apparently, according to the Speed TV broadcast today this story is true and has been confirmed by one of their sources. They added that Alonso's "blackmail" request included #1 status and having Hamilton suspended and replaced by another driver for the remainder of the season. They later said that if true, they are surprised that Alonso is in the car.

:eek:

I think the ultimate loser in this case would be Alonso, if those accusations are true.

McLaren will survive this, they are still a top team and regardless of the financial hit they will take and the loss to their credibility they will remain a formidable force in the future.

Ferrari appear to have political infighting of a particularly nasty degree in place, after all one employee had to be disgruntled enough to pass sensitive information to another team but again they will survive.

Alonso may well be a 2x WDC but he is just that, a driver and therefore replaceable and expendable. If it turns out that he quite willingly was prepared to blackmail his team with a potential suspension from the F1 championship just because he felt hard done by (and I believe the rest of the paddock feels that McLaren have treated him fairly relative to Hamilton) then who is going to touch him? All teams have sensitive material that could get them into trouble, thats the nature of the sport. Why hire a guy with a history of revealing them to the FIA to suit his own purposes? No one trusts a traitor.

[ICKE]

That FIA judgement just shows that they are officially a bunch of corrupted clowns.

Actually you cant do anything else but laugh at the whole thing.

[Malbec]

Read the FIA judgement. There will be sooooo much egg on your face it's not funny......

I'm interested in how you know its contents? They won't be out until next week. If the current FIA judgement was of the quality of the judgements it has made in the past then the one with egg on its face will be the FIA.

[race aficionado]

What would you do if you are DelaRosa and you start getting this info?
Do you go to Ron, to your priest, or to your buddy Alonso?

[markabilly]

I think the ultimate loser in this case would be Alonso, if those accusations are true.

McLaren will survive this, they are still a top team and regardless of the financial hit they will take and the loss to their credibility they will remain a formidable force in the future.

Ferrari appear to have political infighting of a particularly nasty degree in place, after all one employee had to be disgruntled enough to pass sensitive information to another team but again they will survive.

Alonso may well be a 2x WDC but he is just that, a driver and therefore replaceable and expendable. If it turns out that he quite willingly was prepared to blackmail his team with a potential suspension from the F1 championship just because he felt hard done by (and I believe the rest of the paddock feels that McLaren have treated him fairly relative to Hamilton) then who is going to touch him? All teams have sensitive material that could get them into trouble, thats the nature of the sport. Why hire a guy with a history of revealing them to the FIA to suit his own purposes? No one trusts a traitor.


If this is true, suspension is NOT the issue, his reward should be prison.

Perhaps they will let him out on the weekends to race while he does his 20 years but I doubt it.....

all these things cited in the emails is just nothing by comparison....

and this comes from someone who favors FA over any of the other competitors in the current field of drivers

This revelation to me is far more damaging to the sport than anything I have seen about "cheating by mac" and is equal to the theft by NS or probably far worse than that....

[Daniel]

I'm interested in how you know its contents? They won't be out until next week. If the current FIA judgement was of the quality of the judgements it has made in the past then the one with egg on its face will be the FIA.
Arrows posted a link.....

[markabilly]

What would you do if you are DelaRosa and you start getting this info?
Do you go to Ron, to your priest, or to your buddy Alonso?

Simple--i go to Ron and tell him to make me a race driver, replace LH with me and pay me 20 million per year.....

then what should happen is the judge says go to prison for 20 years plus...... :eek:

no one trusts a traitor?? how about no one trusts a felon......

[Malbec]

Arrows posted a link.....

A link to the verdict, not as to how they came to that decision.

The full transcript will be made available next week.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Read the FIA judgement. There will be sooooo much egg on your face it's not funny......

Last week I predicted that the FIA would exclude McLaren from the WCC but not exclude Alonso and Hamilton. At the time you told me how wrong I was in your customary know-it-all style.

How do you know you're not wrong about this as well?

[Daniel]

A link to the verdict, not as to how they came to that decision.

The full transcript will be made available next week.
Read it first before mouthing off. Do me that favour.

[Daniel]

Last week I predicted that the FIA would exclude McLaren from the WCC but not exclude Alonso and Hamilton. At the time you told me how wrong I was in your customary know-it-all style.

How do you know you're not wrong about this as well?
That was me failing to take into account the corruption and idiocy that seems to be rife in the FIA when it comes to dealing with Formula 1. I apologise for not thinking like a corrupt idiotic moron :rolleyes:

[Malbec]

If this is true, suspension is NOT the issue, his reward should be prison.

What Alonso is accused of doing is dirty and underhanded and will ruin his reputation but it isn't illegal....

According to GP.com Ron Dennis then went to the FIA with this information to both pre-empt Alonso and try to reduce any punishment by appearing upfront and honest. This is supposedly the new evidence the FIA announced a few weeks back.

Its interesting to note that the initial grounds for appeal, ie evidence previously unused from the Ferrari side never seems to have appeared in this appeal. Its fortunate for Ferrari that McLaren came up with the rope to hang themselves with, otherwise they would have ended up looking a little silly too.

[SGWilko]

Take this scenario.

If the weight distribution question posed to Mike by PDLR was answered by NS directly, and not from the 'dossier' (one assumes that the weight distribution of a car changes throughout the year as the aero balance changes and would not be reliable), and that NS was willing to give up this info, what does that constitute?

[markabilly]

That was me failing to take into account the corruption and idiocy that seems to be rife in the FIA when it comes to dealing with Formula 1. I apologise for not thinking like a corrupt idiotic moron :rolleyes:


No you should apolgize for not thinking like Machiavelli :D :D

[markabilly]

What Alonso is accused of doing is dirty and underhanded and will ruin his reputation but it isn't illegal....

According to GP.com Ron Dennis then went to the FIA with this information to both pre-empt Alonso and try to reduce any punishment by appearing upfront and honest. This is supposedly the new evidence the FIA announced a few weeks back.

Its interesting to note that the initial grounds for appeal, ie evidence previously unused from the Ferrari side never seems to have appeared in this appeal. Its fortunate for Ferrari that McLaren came up with the rope to hang themselves with, otherwise they would have ended up looking a little silly too.

Excuse me, Mr. Dylan, giving something of value to someone to keep them from testfying or blowing the whistle is very illegal

offerring or threatening someone if they do not pay me, I will blow the whistle and testify against them, is a form of bribery and blackmail and is very illegal, just as is stealing.......

everyone here seems to be thinking the issue is what is within F1, but failing to report a crime when you are that close to the situation, is very illegal--the email traffic should provide a basis to indict FA, Paddy and Pedro, if all this is true....what is funny is that going to RD and making this threat is sort of like saying, I been breaking the law with you, but if you do not give me what i want, I am going to turn myself in......Peopel ought to be worreid about PRISON and not about getting banned or paying fines

[tinchote]

If any of this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62346) is true, then yesterday's ruling is a complete joke. Now we can safely call FA "the cheater" :mad:

[Daniel]

Last week I predicted that the FIA would exclude McLaren from the WCC but not exclude Alonso and Hamilton. At the time you told me how wrong I was in your customary know-it-all style.

How do you know you're not wrong about this as well?
I really do take offense to this rather personal remark. Surely when dealing with this sort of think we should think of how things should be dealt with given a particular judgement being reached rather than how a inept body of limpwristed morons will deal with it.

[Daniel]

Take this scenario.

If the weight distribution question posed to Mike by PDLR was answered by NS directly, and not from the 'dossier' (one assumes that the weight distribution of a car changes throughout the year as the aero balance changes and would not be reliable), and that NS was willing to give up this info, what does that constitute?
Something that didn't happen?

[Daniel]

If any of this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62346) is true, then yesterday's ruling is a complete joke. Now we can safely call FA "the cheater" :mad:
Read the PDF the FIA posted on the link arrows posted. It blows it all wide open.

[Daniel]

Here's a link.

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

[rabf1]

I read the entire written decision of the counsel. The substance of the emails between de la rosa and alonso are pretty strong evidence that mclaren was cheating -- actually using the Ferrari data, but there is a lot of speculation in the written ruling. What was not proven was that any information was actually incorporated in any way into the mclaren car. The counsel said that just knowing what Ferrari was doing probably influenced mclaren in some way, which seems a little too speculative to me.

[Malbec]

Excuse me, Mr. Dylan, giving something of value to someone to keep them from testfying or blowing the whistle is very illegal

offerring or threatening someone if they do not pay me, I will blow the whistle and testify against them, is a form of bribery and blackmail and is very illegal, just as is stealing.......

everyone here seems to be thinking the issue is what is within F1, but failing to report a crime when you are that close to the situation, is very illegal--the email traffic should provide a basis to indict FA, Paddy and Pedro, if all this is true....what is funny is that going to RD and making this threat is sort of like saying, I been breaking the law with you, but if you do not give me what i want, I am going to turn myself in......Peopel ought to be worreid about PRISON and not about getting banned or paying fines

mark, what he did is blackmail but it is not provable unless Ron Dennis and Alonso communicated by email ;) . However the rumours and stories about it will spread around the paddock.

You are right about industrial espionage being illegal in the real world, something the F1 types often seem to forget. Whilst the emails are evidence of the complicity of PdlR and many of the senior engineers at McLaren, they have been punished as a collective by the withdrawal of any WCC points they have and may earn this season.

What sticks out to me is that Alonso has gone unpunished despite having been party to this information. His emails show that he knew about the Ferrari information yet took no whistleblowing action (until it came to suit him) yet he will keep his WDC points, something that shows that the primary purpose of yesterdays judgement was to show the world that something had been done about the case of industrial espionage whilst protecting F1's value and marketability by maintaining the duel between the two McLaren boys. Justice wasn't the objective here as usual.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I really do take offense to this rather personal remark. Surely when dealing with this sort of think we should think of how things should be dealt with given a particular judgement being reached rather than how a inept body of limpwristed morons will deal with it.

Erm...no. I was predicting what would happen, not what I think should happen. Knowing how important Hamilton and his battle with Alonso is for TV revenues, it wasn't hard to predict that the FIA would avoid banning them by any means possible.

[Daniel]

I read the entire written decision of the counsel. The substance of the emails between de la rosa and alonso are pretty strong evidence that mclaren was cheating -- actually using the Ferrari data, but there is a lot of speculation in the written ruling. What was not proven was that any information was actually incorporated in any way into the mclaren car. The counsel said that just knowing what Ferrari was doing probably influenced mclaren in some way, which seems a little too speculative to me.
This is a far cry from when just Coughlan had the data and it NEVER went near anyone else. The fact is McLaren were aware of Ferrari data. If I stole your credit card number that in itself would be illegal. Doesn't matter if I used it.

If Ron did spill the beans then good on him. I have respect for him. Shame on Pedro and Fernando............

[wedge]

Alonso should lose his super-license for that.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't FA given immunity for giving evidence and therefore he won't get more than a slap on the wrist?

[Daniel]

Erm...no. I was predicting what would happen, not what I think should happen. Knowing how important Hamilton and his battle with Alonso is for TV revenues, it wasn't hard to predict that the FIA would avoid banning them by any means possible.

Congratulations for predicting that the FIA would merely protect it's commercial interests and not protect the sport from looking like a joke. I hope it makes you happy at night when you close your eyes :rolleyes: I'm happy to stand up and say that even though F1 is nowhere near my favourite sport I still stand up for what is right and believe that honesty is best and rewarding cheating is the worst thing that could happen for Formula 1.

[markabilly]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't FA given immunity for giving evidence and therefore he won't get more than a slap on the wrist?
well duhhh how do you think they were going to keep interest up in the wdc...if alonso is gone..... along wih FA..that was the point I made much earleir

[Daniel]

Will other teams want to employ Alonso in the future knowing full well he's happy to cheat? I hope he wins the title and then gets the boot.

[Viktory]

Having read through what evidence there was against McLaren, I have to say that they are cheaters and they should have got a more severe punishment which included the points of the drivers.

McLaren = Cheaters

[Malbec]

Congratulations for predicting that the FIA would merely protect it's commercial interests and not protect the sport from looking like a joke. I hope it makes you happy at night when you close your eyes :rolleyes: I'm happy to stand up and say that even though F1 is nowhere near my favourite sport I still stand up for what is right and believe that honesty is best and rewarding cheating is the worst thing that could happen for Formula 1.

With all due respect if you believe F1 or motorsport in general even attempts to be a clean fair sport then you're not following the sport closely enough.

We've had two cases of industrial espionage in F1 recently.

Case 1. Information from one team is passed to another. Two individuals are tried in a real-world court and are convicted of industrial espionage. The FIA does nothing to punish or even investigate the team involved even though its the second time they've been involved in a major scandal.

Case 2. Information from one team is passed to another. A criminal investigation is started in Italy but the FIA chooses to ban the team involved from that seasons championship before that investigation even gets into stride.

Try as you might I suspect its going to be difficult for you to argue that those two decisions are consistent.

I recommend the book 'Bernie's Game' which gives a good insight into how the sport works at the top level. Whichever poster picked the word 'Machiavellian' to describe what happened in Paris yesterday got it spot on.

[markabilly]

mark, what he did is blackmail but it is not provable unless Ron Dennis and Alonso communicated by email ;) . However the rumours and stories about it will spread around the paddock.

You are right about industrial espionage being illegal in the real world, something the F1 types often seem to forget. Whilst the emails are evidence of the complicity of PdlR and many of the senior engineers at McLaren, they have been punished as a collective by the withdrawal of any WCC points they have and may earn this season.

What sticks out to me is that Alonso has gone unpunished despite having been party to this information. His emails show that he knew about the Ferrari information yet took no whistleblowing action (until it came to suit him) yet he will keep his WDC points, something that shows that the primary purpose of yesterdays judgement was to show the world that something had been done about the case of industrial espionage whilst protecting F1's value and marketability by maintaining the duel between the two McLaren boys. Justice wasn't the objective here as usual.

Easy to prove, all one has to do is say it,

but here there is more: back up with some physical evidence of FA being involved in the underlying crime (per the emails already out), the chain of events where RD goes to the FIA (which is what should have happened with the other stuff), the chain of events, the fact that RD's actions in going to the FIA is actually an admission made against his own personal interests because it potentially pulls him and maclaren further down the toilet.......people have gone to prison for a very long time on less evidence


otherwise I agree with what you say


P/s this should answer pino(?) question about why did FA not show up yesterday..............

[ICKE]

3.13 Mr de la Rosa's e-mail to Mr. Alonso on 25 March 2007 at 01.43 identified a gas that Ferrari uses to inflate its tyres to reduce the internal temperature and blistering. The e-mail concludes with a statement (in relation to the gas) that "we'll have to try it, it's easy!".

3.14 Mr Alonso replied at 12.31 that it is "very important" that McLaren test the gas that Ferrari uses in its tyres as "they have something different from the rest", and "not only this year. there is something else and this may be the key; let's hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority!".

3.15 Mr. de la Rosa replied on 25 March 2007 13.02 stating the following: I agree 100% that we must test the [tyre gas] thing very soon.

[ioan]

If any of this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62346) is true, then yesterday's ruling is a complete joke. Now we can safely call FA "the cheater" :mad:

And the FIA are just Bernie's Muppets while we are happily watching his Muppets Show!

Mclaren and Alonso and Hamilton should have been excluded from both championship for 2007 and 2008 as they initially proposed.

How many of those that said that Ferrari are the villains will dare to admit they were wrong?
Let's see: ArrowsFA1? flat.tyres? to name just the most vocal ones and not counting the ones that just registered to air their frustration regardless the truth.

[aryan]

My last message here in this forum, as the championship is over and so is my involvement with F1.

MS had TC on his car but was not penalised because they couldn't prove it had been used, what' so different with McLaren?

Any game with rudimentary decisions like this is a farce...I'll be trying to replace it with something else in my life. Tennis? ChampCar? V8 Super Cars? I don't know, but I do know that I won't give FIA, Max, Bernie, or whoever it is that runs F1 the satisfaction of increasing their viewer ratings.

After 6 years of ardently following this game and only missing two GPs.... so long :(

[BeansBeansBeans]

Congratulations for predicting that the FIA would merely protect it's commercial interests and not protect the sport from looking like a joke. I hope it makes you happy at night when you close your eyes :rolleyes: I'm happy to stand up and say that even though F1 is nowhere near my favourite sport I still stand up for what is right and believe that honesty is best and rewarding cheating is the worst thing that could happen for Formula 1.

My point is that you think you're always right, and sometimes you aren't.

I think you need to learn a little humility.

[Daniel]

With all due respect if you believe F1 or motorsport in general even attempts to be a clean fair sport then you're not following the sport closely enough.

We've had two cases of industrial espionage in F1 recently.

Case 1. Information from one team is passed to another. Two individuals are tried in a real-world court and are convicted of industrial espionage. The FIA does nothing to punish or even investigate the team involved even though its the second time they've been involved in a major scandal.

Case 2. Information from one team is passed to another. A criminal investigation is started in Italy but the FIA chooses to ban the team involved from that seasons championship before that investigation even gets into stride.

Try as you might I suspect its going to be difficult for you to argue that those two decisions are consistent.

I recommend the book 'Bernie's Game' which gives a good insight into how the sport works at the top level. Whichever poster picked the word 'Machiavellian' to describe what happened in Paris yesterday got it spot on.
Oh I agree. Motorsport isn't clean of course. But should we not aspire for it to be clean? If there is cheating but the penalties for doing so when caught are severe then at least the FIA gives the impression trying to keep things clean.

[ioan]

Congratulations for predicting that the FIA would merely protect it's commercial interests and not protect the sport from looking like a joke. I hope it makes you happy at night when you close your eyes :rolleyes: I'm happy to stand up and say that even though F1 is nowhere near my favourite sport I still stand up for what is right and believe that honesty is best and rewarding cheating is the worst thing that could happen for Formula 1.

Cheers to you! :up:


Having read through what evidence there was against McLaren, I have to say that they are cheaters and they should have got a more severe punishment which included the points of the drivers.

McLaren = Cheaters

And to you! :up:

And to all those who have a sense of justice around here!

[Malbec]

And the FIA are just Bernie's Muppets while we are happily watching his Muppets Show!

To be fair, I think if it was left to Bernie he'd have ignored Ron and would have let the initial ruling stand. The longrunning and very public allegations of industrial espionage have done the sport nothing positive IMO and Bernie probably wouldn't appreciate having sponsors scared off in this fashion, not to mention having something endanger the showdown between Alonso and Hamilton.

[ioan]

My last message here in this forum, as the championship is over and so is my involvement with F1.

MS had TC on his car but was not penalised because they couldn't prove it had been used, what' so different with McLaren?

Any game with rudimentary decisions like this is a farce...I'll be trying to replace it with something else in my life. Tennis? ChampCar? V8 Super Cars? I don't know, but I do know that I won't give FIA, Max, Bernie, or whoever it is that runs F1 the satisfaction of increasing their viewer ratings.

After 6 years of ardently following this game and only missing two GPs.... so long :(

I understand your frustration.

[Daniel]

My point is that you think you're always right, and sometimes you aren't.

I think you need to learn a little humility.
I never said I was always right. Perhaps I never made the distinction between what SHOULD happen and what will probably happen. But that's an understandable mistake non?

I do hope this evidence shuts up the Ferrari critics.

[BeansBeansBeans]

And to all those who have a sense of justice around here!

Oh come on now Ioan, you're hardly impartial.

If it had been the other way round, and Ferrari had acquired McLaren data, you'd be defending the Scuderia to the hilt.

[Viktory]

3.13 Mr de la Rosa's e-mail to Mr. Alonso on 25 March 2007 at 01.43 identified a gas that Ferrari uses to inflate its tyres to reduce the internal temperature and blistering. The e-mail concludes with a statement (in relation to the gas) that "we'll have to try it, it's easy!".

3.14 Mr Alonso replied at 12.31 that it is "very important" that McLaren test the gas that Ferrari uses in its tyres as "they have something different from the rest", and "not only this year. there is something else and this may be the key; let's hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority!".

3.15 Mr. de la Rosa replied on 25 March 2007 13.02 stating the following: I agree 100% that we must test the [tyre gas] thing very soon.

How people say that the FIA are acting agaist McLaren when this, among all the other evidence, did not throw McLaren out of the championship all together is beyond me...

[Flat.tyres]

I really do take offense to this rather personal remark. .

I believe you have been rather close to the knuckle with a few of your remarks recently ;) Perhaps you might like to visit the Feedback forum and read how you feel people ought to conduct themselves (written in a similar vein to the style Beans mentioned).

I appreciate that this is a personal remark but hopefully a constructive one and is not ment to be insulting.

It seems this whole subject is quite emotive but we need to bear in mind that the situation is still fluid. What is becomming evident is that MC and NS had a protracted dialogue and were exchanging information. Whether NS used any of the privilidged information at Ferrari is not known but it seems that some of the email exchanges were passed onto PdlR even if the data was not actually used to benefit McLaren.

I'm sorry to say that that my opinion in Scenario 2 is still my opinion.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=342367&postcount=100

I do think that Ron has been let down by these people and that they should be accountable to the FIA and McLaren. The information I had at the time was that MC may have passed on some data but nobody was aware it was from Ferrari. I really thought it was scenario 1.

McLaren didn't derive any benefit to their car from the information but that is almost immaterial.

The fine is draconian and they should lose their points for the year because of their employees actions. This will cost then $50m anyway so is very harsh.

Any personell involved should be sacked with immediate effect for gross misconduct. FA, PdlR and MC.

This is a very sad day for me that a few employees have brought the good name of McLaren and the integrity of RD into question. I just hope that the Ron Bashers admit that as soon as Ron was aware of the emails from an alledged attempt at Bribery from FA, that he immediatly informed the FIA. Max said that he didn't rule out sanctioning drivers and I cannot understand why he hasn't seen his threat through in the light of this.

[ioan]

To be fair, I think if it was left to Bernie he'd have ignored Ron and would have let the initial ruling stand. The longrunning and very public allegations of industrial espionage have done the sport nothing positive IMO and Bernie probably wouldn't appreciate having sponsors scared off in this fashion, not to mention having something endanger the showdown between Alonso and Hamilton.

Bernie earns money from the TV revenue and from the Circuits that pay his huge fees. Having Hamilton up there for those who can't make a difference in terms of justice (i.e. most of those who only occasionaly watch F1) brings more TV viewers and money.

Bernie turned F1 into a gold mine for himself and into a farce for the fans. That's all.

[N. Jones]

So, McLaren are found guilty of talking about Ferrari's data but there is no proof that it was in use. Where is the cheating people?????

McLaren should appeal this decision.

Also - how tight is Ferrari now when one of their own employees is telling a competitor what fuel strategy they are on?

[Daniel]

Oh come on now Ioan, you're hardly impartial.

If it had been the other way round, and Ferrari had acquired McLaren data, you'd be defending the Scuderia to the hilt.
That's an assumption. You can't prove it. People used that argument to protect McLaren and I believe Ioan is more trustworthy than some of McLaren's employees. Carl (a dyed in the wool ferrari fan) said on my thread in Chit Chat thread that if the boot was on the other foot he'd lay into Ferrari and I believe him because that's what he says.

Stop trying to criticise people without any basis whatsoever. The McLaren fans were laying into Ferrari previously and now people are laying into the Ferrari supporters in the face of damning evidence against McLaren. It needs to stop....

[ioan]

Oh come on now Ioan, you're hardly impartial.

If it had been the other way round, and Ferrari had acquired McLaren data, you'd be defending the Scuderia to the hilt.

I already said it, I would be very ashamed if Ferrari did what McLaren did. But I honestly can't imagine Jean Todt doing all the public crying and lying that Ron Dennis did.

How do you want anyone to be impartial when there is such proof of blatant cheating?!

[Malbec]

Oh I agree. Motorsport isn't clean of course. But should we not aspire for it to be clean? If there is cheating but the penalties for doing so when caught are severe then at least the FIA gives the impression trying to keep things clean.

The very point is that the FIA doesn't keep things clean, as shown by the inconsistency with which it dealt with the Toyota and McLaren cases.

The FIA is neither fair nor consistent.

The chief objective for the FIA yesterday was to be seen to punish McLaren whilst maintaining TV ratings by keeping the Alonso/Hamilton race going.

Commercial interests have no part in a judicial system that is fair or clean.

[markabilly]

How people say that the FIA are acting agaist McLaren when this, among all the other evidence, did not throw McLaren out of the championship all together is beyond me...

Simple you need to read the definitive manual of modern politics written by a certain Italian Renaissance political philosopher Nicolò Machiavelli of almost 500 years ago.

then once you understand that, the rest is simple.......
and that is the real shame of it all..... :mad:

[ArrowsFA1]

I read the entire written decision of the counsel. The substance of the emails between de la rosa and alonso are pretty strong evidence that mclaren was cheating -- actually using the Ferrari data, but there is a lot of speculation in the written ruling. What was not proven was that any information was actually incorporated in any way into the mclaren car. The counsel said that just knowing what Ferrari was doing probably influenced mclaren in some way, which seems a little too speculative to me.
There is speculation in the ruling i.e. the content of the phone calls between NS & MC are not known BUT what has been released by the FIA shows that PDLR in particular discussed Ferrari data with Coughlan in full knowledge that it had come from Stepney. To what extent it was then used, and what effect that had on performance, is not clear, but it was discussed. PDLR then shared some of that with Alonso.

My first reaction on reading the FIA information was that Coughlan, PDLR and Alonso have landed McLaren right in it. I still don't believe that Ron Dennis had knowledge of this, and his statements reflect that, but that doesn't alter the point that members of his team had access to, and discussed, Ferrari data.

In the light of that, quite how Alonso can work with, and race for, the team for the remaining races of this season is beyond me, and how he (and PDLR) have escaped any sort of sanction (even given MM's immunity) is surprising to say the least.

I do believe that a more approriate punishment would have been to exclude the team - the entire team - from the whole of the 2007 season. That would be harsh on Hamilton, whose faith in Ron Dennis in particular has been obvious, but he is a member of the team as much as anyone.

Ferrari's position has been seen to be right. There was 'new evidence' and that new evidence has been crucial. I do think there are questions that remain about Nigel Stepney's role, and Ferrari's responsibility for his actions, because it remains the case that without his initial approach none of this would, or could, have happened.

That said, it seems McLaren team members sealed the fate of their team :(

[BeansBeansBeans]

Stop trying to criticise people without any basis whatsoever. The McLaren fans were laying into Ferrari previously and now people are laying into the Ferrari supporters in the face of damning evidence against McLaren. It needs to stop....

I'm not laying into Ferrari or their supporters. They've done nothing wrong in this instance. I'm just pointing out that rabid Tifosi will always side with Ferrari. Just as a rabid McLaren fan will side with McLaren. It has nothing to do with 'justice' and everything to do with supporting their team.

[Daniel]

I believe you have been rather close to the knuckle with a few of your remarks recently ;) Perhaps you might like to visit the Feedback forum and read how you feel people ought to conduct themselves (written in a similar vein to the style Beans mentioned).

I appreciate that this is a personal remark but hopefully a constructive one and is not ment to be insulting.

It seems this whole subject is quite emotive but we need to bear in mind that the situation is still fluid. What is becomming evident is that MC and NS had a protracted dialogue and were exchanging information. Whether NS used any of the privilidged information at Ferrari is not known but it seems that some of the email exchanges were passed onto PdlR even if the data was not actually used to benefit McLaren.

I'm sorry to say that that my opinion in Scenario 2 is still my opinion.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=342367&postcount=100

I do think that Ron has been let down by these people and that they should be accountable to the FIA and McLaren. The information I had at the time was that MC may have passed on some data but nobody was aware it was from Ferrari. I really thought it was scenario 1.

McLaren didn't derive any benefit to their car from the information but that is almost immaterial.

The fine is draconian and they should lose their points for the year because of their employees actions. This will cost then $50m anyway so is very harsh.

Any personell involved should be sacked with immediate effect for gross misconduct. FA, PdlR and MC.

This is a very sad day for me that a few employees have brought the good name of McLaren and the integrity of RD into question. I just hope that the Ron Bashers admit that as soon as Ron was aware of the emails from an alledged attempt at Bribery from FA, that he immediatly informed the FIA. Max said that he didn't rule out sanctioning drivers and I cannot understand why he hasn't seen his threat through in the light of this.
Oh I agree. I think McLaren should be penalised by losing their points but the drivers should lose their points and the guilty ones should never work in F1 again. McLaren should come back next year and hold their heads up but MC, PdR and FA should be sent off to NASCAR or something never to return.

I think Ron will look unfairly bad in this.

[ioan]

The McLaren fans were laying into Ferrari previously and now people are laying into the Ferrari supporters in the face of damning evidence against McLaren. It needs to stop....

It can't stop. People around here usually go and hide for a long time when they lose face, like in this case, than they come back and start it all over again.
There are very few that have real knowledge and usually these are the same ones that will also accept that they are wrong if proved.

[BeansBeansBeans]

How do you want anyone to be impartial when there is such proof of blatant cheating?!

You defended Schumacher when he blatantly cheated at Monaco, did you not?

Music to my ears......

"3.4 All three drivers responded. Mr. Hamilton responded that he had no information
responsive to the FIA’s request. Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa both submitted emails
to the FIA which the WMSC finds highly relevant. Subsequently (at
McLaren’s request) both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa made written statements
to the WMSC verifying that these e-mails were sent and received and offering
context and explanations regarding the e-mails. The e-mails show unequivocally
that both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information
via Coughlan; that both drivers knew that this information was confidential
Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by
Coughlan from Stepney.
weight distribution
3.5 On 21 March 2007 at 09.57 Mr. de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan in the following
terms:
“Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car’s Weight Distribution? It would be
important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in
advance, Pedro.
p.s. I will be in the simulator tomorrow.”
3.6 In his evidence given to the WMSC, Mr. de la Rosa confirmed that Coughlan
replied by text message with precise details of Ferrari’s weight distribution.
3.7 On 25 March 2007 at 01.43 Mr. de la Rosa sent an e-mail to Fernando Alonso
which sets out Ferrari’s weight distribution to two decimal places on each of
Ferrari’s two cars as set up for the Australian Grand Prix.
3.8 Mr. Alonso replied to this e-mail on 25 March 2007 at 12.31 (they were in
different time zones). His e-mail includes a section headed “Ferrari” in which he
says “its weight distribution surprises me; I don’t know either if it’s 100%
reliable, but at least it draws attention”. The e-mail continues with a discussion
of how McLaren’s weight distribution compares with Ferrari’s.
3.9 Mr. de la Rosa replied on 25 March 2007 13.02 stating the following:
“All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney,
their former chief mechanic – I don’t know what post he holds now. He’s the
same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He’s very
friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that.”
3.10 Mr. de la Rosa’s e-mail to Coughlan specifically stated that he wished to receive
Ferrari’s weight distribution for the purposes of testing it in the simulator the
following day (“It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the
simulator”). Mr. de la Rosa explained to the WMSC at the meeting of 13
September 2007 that when Coughlan responded with the precise details in
question, he (de la Rosa) decided that the weight distribution was so different to
the McLaren car set up that it would not, in fact, be tested in the simulator. Mr de
la Rosa says that thereafter he regarded the information as unimportant. It seems
highly unlikely to the WMSC that a test driver would take a decision of this sort
on his own. It also is not clear why, if Mr. de la Rosa regarded this information as
unimportant, he would still convey and discuss it with Mr. Alonso some days later
in his e-mail exchange of 25th March. Mr. de la Rosa’s evidence also makes clear
that there was no reluctance or hesitation about testing the Ferrari information for
potential benefit, but only that on this occasion he says that there was a technical
reason not to do so"

There is absolutely no defence for that.

If Ron Dennis truly was a man of 'integrity' he would fall on his sword as he is now nothing more than a liar and a cheat.