taking children away from school

[LeonBrooke]

I've just heard a news item saying that hundreds of school days have been lost because people are taking their children on holiday during term time.

I, personally, think this is very bad. Children go to school for a reason, you can't just take them out on a whim. If you must take your kids away, wait for the scheduled holidays.

What does everyone else think?

[jon2211]

As a parent who has taken their children out of school during term time and reading your comments I think that a) you don't have children and b) if you think it is done on a whim, you are much mistaken.

There are a number of factors to take into consideration. How old are the children, is it during exam time, how close to the end / start of term is it, and why are you taking them out.

I took my children out of school when they were under 8. I also took them out close to the end of term or at the very start.

Why didI do it. Because it was the difference between going on holiday or not going on holiday. For those of you who don't have children and don't live on a cold, windy, rainy island in the North Sea take a look at flight prices to Europe or Florida in August or Easter and compare them to early July or the week after Easter. Prices can be as much as 300% higher at Easter than if you book the week after Easter. The same in August. Book flights leaving the UK on 8th September to Orlando and they are half the price of 24th August. That difference can be considerable - 2000gbp for a family of 4. Package holidays are even worse during July and August.

So most families that do it because it's either take them out of school a week early in July or don't go on holiday.

As an aside, in Canada (Calgary anyway) they aren't that anal about it and aren't fussed unless it is exam time or are High School age.

[LeonBrooke]

Firstly, you're right, I don't have kids. But when I was at school I saw those around me being taken out to go down to their holiday home on Friday before a long weekend. Sure, they're only missing one day, but that's not the point. Holidays should fit around commitments such as school and work, not the other way round. If you can't fit it in with the school holidays, either you don't go or you don't take the kids. Find somewhere more economical to go for your holiday. That's what I'll be doing.

To me it's just decadence. Maybe a bit of it is jealousy because we never had enough money to go on holiday, but watching my friends taking anywhere from one day to three weeks in one case away from school so they could sun themselves in Whangamata or Greece did make me think a bit about it.

Obviously if they're under 8 it won't actually make much difference to them academically, but when they're 14 it's different.

[Erki]

Holidays should fit around commitments such as school and work, not the other way round.

I do think they should be the other way around. ;)

But then again I find that the whole life should be a holiday. :s anta:

[LeonBrooke]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having fun and holidays, but I think responsibility and commitment comes first.

[Erki]

Ahhh the joys of being a bum. ;) :D

[GridGirl]

I was never taken out of school but thinking back I had friends who were taken out of school to go on holidays and to be fair the odd one week never affected them. Those people always had much higher exam results than the people who just skived school, or those that thier parents allowed them to skive school as well as those that were just down right disruptive.

[Mark]

When they are primary school age, I don't think it matters one bit. In fact 2 weeks travelling can teach you more than sitting in a classroom. As others have said it can be the difference between going on holiday or not, and I think it's just as important for kids to see the world as it is for them to get all their lessons.

At my primary school you were allowed 2 weeks holiday per year, which I think is fair enough. We took it every year.

When you get to senior school (11+) and especially when you get to GCSE's (14+) then it's a different issue.

[gadjo_dilo]

Sorry guys but I'm a bit confused. On "my time" , school classes followed a tight schedule and if you missed a few classes it was quite difficult to reach the others level. I supose that even today there's a continuity of the classes. How easy is for a kid to recuperate 2 weeks of study? And is a holiday more important than the basis of knowledge? I remember that when I was a kid we weren't allowed to miss classes without a medical motivation. Even if we were ill we weren't allowed to be away too many days/year. Otherwise we were forced to repeat the year.

[Iain]

A lot of the people at my workplace have no choice. The months of July and August (school summer holiday time here in Scotland) were booked solid and quite a few parents couldn't get the time off in that period, so had to take their kids out during term time, or they wouldn't get a holiday at all.

I think I might have missed a couple of days of secondary school so we could go away for a week in September, but apart from that we usually went away during the term.

[LeonBrooke]

I think it's just as important for kids to see the world as it is for them to get all their lessons.

I've heard this quite a lot. What it says to me is, if you can't afford to go on overseas holidays then you have insufficient life experience.


I was never taken out of school but thinking back I had friends who were taken out of school to go on holidays and to be fair the odd one week never affected them. Those people always had much higher exam results than the people who just skived school, or those that thier parents allowed them to skive school as well as those that were just down right disruptive.

What you're saying to me is, the world is divided into three groups: the first two are people who are disruptive in class and those who skive off from school, both of whom fail at school. The third group is, those who can afford to go off on overseas holidays all the time. I could never afford to go on holiday when I was at school. Thanks :mad:

To me, if you can't find the time to go on holiday, you don't.

I'm taking this so personally because it's a lot more expensive to go overseas from New Zealand than it is from the UK, and we could never afford to. For me it's a lot of snobbery but it's probably different for you.

[Mark]

I've heard this quite a lot. What it says to me is, if you can't afford to go on overseas holidays then you have insufficient life experience.

Define "insufficient". I certainly think it is better if you do, or do you think that if one person can't afford it then nobody should go?

And who said anything about overseas anyway. Of all the times I took time off school only once was a foreign holiday, the rest were within the UK.

[Iain]

Just what I was going to say. You can go on holiday in your own country. :) I've never been overseas as such.

[LeonBrooke]

To me it's snobbery. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to go, but I'm saying you should go when you have the time - not taking time off from school.

As someone who never went on holiday the whole time I was at school I definitely felt left out.

Could never afford to go on holiday even inside NZ.

[Mark]

To me it's snobbery. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to go, but I'm saying you should go when you have the time - not taking time off from school.

I'm confused, why is it snobbery to go on holiday?



As someone who never went on holiday the whole time I was at school I definitely felt left out.

So in actual fact it's jealousy?

[LeonBrooke]

It's snobbery to go on holiday when you should be at school.

Yes, it is jealousy. Resentment. As I keep saying it wasn't by choice that I never went on holiday.

But it's mainly that you can't shirk your commitments to school and work to go on holiday.

[Mark]

It's snobbery to go on holiday when you should be at school.


Well you are entitled to your opinion, so I will just say that I belive you are wrong.

[Daniel]

When they are primary school age, I don't think it matters one bit. In fact 2 weeks travelling can teach you more than sitting in a classroom. As others have said it can be the difference between going on holiday or not, and I think it's just as important for kids to see the world as it is for them to get all their lessons.

At my primary school you were allowed 2 weeks holiday per year, which I think is fair enough. We took it every year.

When you get to senior school (11+) and especially when you get to GCSE's (14+) then it's a different issue.
I disagree. Going to a resort in Spain or Portugal or Cyprus is hardly life experience. I know of kids whose parents take them on holiday in term time even though they're already behind everyone else. What if they miss the lesson where you start to learn multiplication or some other important concept? Then they're even further behind!!!! If you can't afford to go away in the holidays then just save up till next year and just go somewhere in England, Wales or Scotland........ I missed 1 day of primary school due to holidays and that was the last day of school that year so I didn't miss any learning at all. Are overseas holidays a right for kids? They already get enough time off school as it is.

[LeonBrooke]

Are overseas holidays a right for kids?

I think no. It's a luxury.

[ChrisS]

I often see families of tourists here in Cyprus either in the autumn or the spring during school term time. the weather in Cyprus is hot enough to allow that

Though I find it odd I can see why some may choose to do it. everything from flights to hotels to car rental are more expensive during the peak holiday season. Going on holidays during the off season could save a family a lot of money, it could also be the only way a family can afford a holiday

[BeansBeansBeans]

Ideally, it would be best not to take children out of school during term time, but we don't live in an ideal world. In my workplace, many parents can't take time off during school holidays due to demand, so they have to take their holidays during term time. Therefore they have two options: take their children away during term time, or simply don't go on holiday.

[LeonBrooke]

Well don't go on holiday then.

It's not good for the kids' education or socialisation. You can't just take time off because you can't take the holiday at a better time.

I missed eight days at the beginning of one year (totally unavoidably) and it gave me a lot of trouble in calculus for the rest of the year.

[Daniel]

Ideally, it would be best not to take children out of school during term time, but we don't live in an ideal world. In my workplace, many parents can't take time off during school holidays due to demand, so they have to take their holidays during term time. Therefore they have two options: take their children away during term time, or simply don't go on holiday.
Well holidays are on a first come first served basis. My parents are here in a few weeks and I can't get the day off to pick them up. Tough titties. If you don't plan your holidays well enough in advance or someone wants the same holidays then it doesn't happen. Like I said it's not a right. It's a privilege. I went on 4 overseas holidays in my 12 years of school and I didn't feel disadvantaged.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Well don't go on holiday then.

Not really conducive to a healthy work / life balance though is it? Plus, family holidays are often the only chance busy families get to spend some uninterrupted quality-time together. Childhood isn't all about education.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I went on 4 overseas holidays in my 12 years of school and I didn't feel disadvantaged.

I went on ONE overseas holiday during my childhood, but we still holidayed in the UK each year, which was important for my family. Luckily, my parents were able to take time off during school holidays, but not everyone is so lucky.

[Mark]

Not really conducive to a healthy work / life balance though is it? Plus, family holidays are often the only chance busy families get to spend some uninterrupted quality-time together. Childhood isn't all about education.

Indeed. At a young age the education they receive isn't like a degree course where you do certain material once and if you miss that week you never see it again. It's more general skills built up over a long period of time. Missing a week out of term is no big deal IMO.

(We only ever took one 2 week holiday, when I was 8, the rest were 1 week.)

[Daniel]

I went on ONE overseas holiday during my childhood, but we still holidayed in the UK each year, which was important for my family. Luckily, my parents were able to take time off during school holidays, but not everyone is so lucky.
My issue is that it's not a right to go overseas or go on holiday every year. So if you can't go on holiday this year then why not plan hoidays for next year? Or if you can't afford to go on holiday then why are you buying that big screen TV or that new car every couple of years? Life is tough. I don't see why you should disadvantage your child (and you are!!!!!) just because life isn't all peachy and doesn't fit together nicely.

[Daniel]

Indeed. At a young age the education they receive isn't like a degree course where you do certain material once and if you miss that week you never see it again. It's more general skills built up over a long period of time. Missing a week out of term is no big deal IMO.

(We only ever took one 2 week holiday, when I was 8, the rest were 1 week.)
Once children miss out on a concept then they have to be taught it again on a one to one basis by the teacher in class time which then means just because little Timmy's parents wanted to go to Portugal for a week or two the rest of the class loses out because Timmy needs extra teaching. It would be more acceptable if there was a classroom assistant in every class that could deal with the Timmy's of this world but there isn't and I fail to see why the rest of the class and the teacher should have to deal with it?

[Flat.tyres]

I always have a wry smile when people without children have this utopian ideal of how to bring them up. Just you wait for the puke, piss, strops, worry, battles, frights and above all, the constant compromise, brinkmanship and trade off associated with raising the little darlings.

Don't get me wrong, the benefits of having children far outweigh the negatives but raising Children is a dynamic and fluid experience.

Things to bear in mind.

School is a place where Children learn the basics.

It is a parents responsibility, not the schools, to ensure the education of their children, morally, physically, ethically and if they so wish, spiritually as well.

While a school should provide the basics, if parents don't contribute to the enrichment of that education in a stable and balanced way, then the children will lose out.

I'm not advocating taking Children out on a regular basis but if parents feel that they need to occassionally remove their children from School, then it should be done in conjunction with the school.

My little devils are doing very well at school and I think are very well rounded young people but I would have no compunction about removing them for a week to go on a Holiday and enrich their knowledge of this world. When we go away, it's never to lay on a beach for 7 days but always involves experiencing different cultures and situations whether it's the Highlands of Scotland with the dramatic scenary and geological structure and rich tribal heritage or the splendor of Italy with it's stunning architecture and religious history and varied cullinary delights.

I feel that learning these things and experiencing such wonders makes a more rounded individual than if that time was spent in a classroom doing basic arithmatic that my children learnt years before from me and my partner.

[Daniel]

I always have a wry smile when people without children have this utopian ideal of how to bring them up. Just you wait for the puke, piss, strops, worry, battles, frights and above all, the constant compromise, brinkmanship and trade off associated with raising the little darlings.

Don't get me wrong, the benefits of having children far outweigh the negatives but raising Children is a dynamic and fluid experience.

Things to bear in mind.

School is a place where Children learn the basics.

It is a parents responsibility, not the schools, to ensure the education of their children, morally, physically, ethically and if they so wish, spiritually as well.

While a school should provide the basics, if parents don't contribute to the enrichment of that education in a stable and balanced way, then the children will lose out.

I'm not advocating taking Children out on a regular basis but if parents feel that they need to occassionally remove their children from School, then it should be done in conjunction with the school.

My little devils are doing very well at school and I think are very well rounded young people but I would have no compunction about removing them for a week to go on a Holiday and enrich their knowledge of this world. When we go away, it's never to lay on a beach for 7 days but always involves experiencing different cultures and situations whether it's the Highlands of Scotland with the dramatic scenary and geological structure and rich tribal heritage or the splendor of Italy with it's stunning architecture and religious history and varied cullinary delights.

I feel that learning these things and experiencing such wonders makes a more rounded individual than if that time was spent in a classroom doing basic arithmatic that my children learnt years before from me and my partner.
Thats all fine and dandy but what do most people do when they go on holiday? Go and spend a restful week somewhere sunny and full of places that serve British beer and British food and everyone generally speaks English. How does this help the child? I've been to South Africa 3 times and it was for about 6-8 weeks each time and I got a lot out of it because at times I was forced to speak a different language, deal with different cultures and experience different things. On the other hand I got very little out of my trip to New Zealand because the langauges and cultures are very much the same if you're just walking down the street. I did get to go to a "traditional" Maori village and experience something different there but that was a few hours of a two week holiday :mark:

[Flat.tyres]

Once children miss out on a concept then they have to be taught it again on a one to one basis by the teacher in class time which then means just because little Timmy's parents wanted to go to Portugal for a week or two the rest of the class loses out because Timmy needs extra teaching. It would be more acceptable if there was a classroom assistant in every class that could deal with the Timmy's of this world but there isn't and I fail to see why the rest of the class and the teacher should have to deal with it?

Would you know what your children (hypothetically) were learning and enhance that? Why is it just up to the schools to do that and not the parents?

If little Jonny is learning about WW1 and WW2 for a project, would you consider it worthwhile to take him on a day trip one Friday to the Somme to experience the shere scale of the area, the beaches of the Normandy landing, the Museum there and while you're at it, a trip up Mt St Michele with it's Medieval buildings and fascinating terrain. What about the culture of the area and the relationship between that part of France and England as opposed to the rest of France. Perhaps the local argiculture and economy / industry along with some of the architectural wonders such as the Pont de Normandy.

Or little Jonny can learn it all from a book like everyone else. What would teach him more?

[Flat.tyres]

Thats all fine and dandy but what do most people do when they go on holiday? Go and spend a restful week somewhere sunny and full of places that serve British beer and British food and everyone generally speaks English. How does this help the child? I've been to South Africa 3 times and it was for about 6-8 weeks each time and I got a lot out of it because at times I was forced to speak a different language, deal with different cultures and experience different things. On the other hand I got very little out of my trip to New Zealand because the langauges and cultures are very much the same if you're just walking down the street. I did get to go to a "traditional" Maori village and experience something different there but that was a few hours of a two week holiday :mark:

Again, you're looking at it from your personal experiences and what you would do not having Children.

I have never been skiing but think it might be a good idea for the kids to learn balance, the extreems of climate and how people handle living in a climate that is so much different from ours. How to ensure they maintain a ready supply of water, insulation, the cold and effects it has not to mention the physical benefits of dragging their asses up a mountain and building their muscles and stamina instead of watching TV.

Thanks for the idea ;)

[Mark]

The choice is simple to my mind. You have a stark choice, you go on holiday, for one week during term time, or the child never goes on holiday anywhere.

Which would you choose. And you can't say "Save up, or, next year" because life and money isn't like that.

So, choose, 1 week during term, or nothing?

[BeansBeansBeans]

I always have a wry smile when people without children have this utopian ideal of how to bring them up. Just you wait for the puke, piss, strops, worry, battles, frights and above all, the constant compromise, brinkmanship and trade off associated with raising the little darlings.

One of things I’ve noticed since becoming a parent is the relentless amount of hectoring you have to endure about how to raise your child. Only last week a work colleague was telling me how my car isn’t safe enough, and that they’d think twice about letting their hypothetical child (they don’t have kids) travel in a car with only a 2 Star NCAP rating. I just said “Erm…thanks for that”. Then yesterday someone was giving me a hard time because my child has a dummy.

You just have to let it all go over your head or you’d become neurotic.

[Daniel]

Would you know what your children (hypothetically) were learning and enhance that? Why is it just up to the schools to do that and not the parents?

If little Jonny is learning about WW1 and WW2 for a project, would you consider it worthwhile to take him on a day trip one Friday to the Somme to experience the shere scale of the area, the beaches of the Normandy landing, the Museum there and while you're at it, a trip up Mt St Michele with it's Medieval buildings and fascinating terrain. What about the culture of the area and the relationship between that part of France and England as opposed to the rest of France. Perhaps the local argiculture and economy / industry along with some of the architectural wonders such as the Pont de Normandy.

Or little Jonny can learn it all from a book like everyone else. What would teach him more?
I would have loved to do those things as a child but being in Australia didn't help. I would certainly take my children to battlefields (not current ones of course :p ) and so on if I had children and they would never go to a holiday resort. It's important that children learn in school as well as out of school from a number of sources but going to a resort isn't going to help that.

[Daniel]

One of things I’ve noticed since becoming a parent is the relentless amount of hectoring you have to endure about how to raise your child. Only last week a work colleague was telling me how my car isn’t safe enough, and that they’d think twice about letting their hypothetical child (they don’t have kids) travel in a car with only a 2 Star NCAP rating. I just said “Erm…thanks for that”. Then yesterday someone was giving me a hard time because my child has a dummy.

You just have to let it all go over your head or you’d become neurotic.
I very much agree. People are silly like that. It's like the whole paedophile thing. You can take precautions against abuse happening but it's bloody unlikely in the first place :mark:

But if your child is behind in school and you've taken two 1 week holidays in term time then whose fault is it?

[Flat.tyres]

One of things I’ve noticed since becoming a parent is the relentless amount of hectoring you have to endure about how to raise your child. Only last week a work colleague was telling me how my car isn’t safe enough, and that they’d think twice about letting their hypothetical child (they don’t have kids) travel in a car with only a 2 Star NCAP rating. I just said “Erm…thanks for that”. Then yesterday someone was giving me a hard time because my child has a dummy.

You just have to let it all go over your head or you’d become neurotic.

:laugh:

With you bro :up:

My kids play in the dirt and I love it. The more bacteria they consume, the healthier they will be in my opinion. They have scrapes from their bikes, bruises from falling over and are always into mischief because I encourage them to experience and push boundaries. The mollycoddleing, PC brigade would probably have me shot :p :

They sometimes get into trouble for high jinks and what the school consideres answering back (I call it questioning things that they don't agree with and usually, the kids have a point) yet, they are polite, intelligent, always top of the marks and free thinking. I don't think that's too bad.

[Daniel]

:laugh:

With you bro :up:

My kids play in the dirt and I love it. The more bacteria they consume, the healthier they will be in my opinion. They have scrapes from their bikes, bruises from falling over and are always into mischief because I encourage them to experience and push boundaries. The mollycoddleing, PC brigade would probably have me shot :p :

They sometimes get into trouble for high jinks and what the school consideres answering back (I call it questioning things that they don't agree with and usually, the kids have a point) yet, they are polite, intelligent, always top of the marks and free thinking. I don't think that's too bad.
The problem is that if a child answers back all the time and questions the teacher all the time it undermines the teachers authority and if the other kids pick up on that then it undermines the teachers ability to teach the class and he/she spends more time shouting at children than they do teaching. I don't think there are many teachers out there who don't like children questioning things. It's when kids question because they can that gets on the nerves. In retrospect looking back I regret being the child I was in school.

You're spot on about not shielding children from every scrape and bruise. By the time I'd left high school I'd broken my arm, cut my leg open nicely :mark: and electrocuted myself. All learning experiences that have made me more careful with what I do and never at any point was someone else blamed for me trying to kill myself :) That taught me responsibility

[Flat.tyres]

The problem is that if a child answers back all the time and questions the teacher all the time it undermines the teachers authority and if the other kids pick up on that then it undermines the teachers ability to teach the class and he/she spends more time shouting at children than they do teaching. I don't think there are many teachers out there who don't like children questioning things. It's when kids question because they can that gets on the nerves. In retrospect looking back I regret being the child I was in school.

I'm proud that my children are not autonamons.

We are very fortunate that we have some very good teachers but some that don't really have the intuition they should. One of my kids received a detention for asking a question about a subject and the teacher told them to shut up and read the book for the answer. They did again and asked the same question 5 mins later to which the teacher got angry and again told them to stop being disruptive to which my kid, quite rightly, said they couldn't complete their work without the information. They earned a detention for being lippy.

I questioned it with the school and found the teacher was completely in the wrong. I was proud of my kid for sticking up for what they considered correct and we resolved the situation. The kid learned a valuable lesson.

On another occassion, the same little cherub received a detention from the same teacher which they questioned and I was called into the school. I had the preconception that the teacher was picking on my child and listened to both sides. Consequence was that my little darling thought they could get away with being cheeky because of the first instance. Noy, THAT was a lesson they will remember for a long time. I bet my little so and so wished they had received a weeks worth of detention than get the punishment they did for trying that one on. :D

I will always encourage my kids to ask relevant questions. How, why, who, when are my favourite words and will never try and curb their inquisitiveness. But just let me catch them trying to abuse the system like they did and their feet wont touch the floor :laugh:

As you can guess, we had no more problems from the teacher not doing their job and no more discipleine problems in class following these two instances.

[Daniel]

I'm proud that my children are not autonamons.

We are very fortunate that we have some very good teachers but some that don't really have the intuition they should. One of my kids received a detention for asking a question about a subject and the teacher told them to shut up and read the book for the answer. They did again and asked the same question 5 mins later to which the teacher got angry and again told them to stop being disruptive to which my kid, quite rightly, said they couldn't complete their work without the information. They earned a detention for being lippy.

I questioned it with the school and found the teacher was completely in the wrong. I was proud of my kid for sticking up for what they considered correct and we resolved the situation. The kid learned a valuable lesson.

On another occassion, the same little cherub received a detention from the same teacher which they questioned and I was called into the school. I had the preconception that the teacher was picking on my child and listened to both sides. Consequence was that my little darling thought they could get away with being cheeky because of the first instance. Noy, THAT was a lesson they will remember for a long time. I bet my little so and so wished they had received a weeks worth of detention than get the punishment they did for trying that one on. :D

I will always encourage my kids to ask relevant questions. How, why, who, when are my favourite words and will never try and curb their inquisitiveness. But just let me catch them trying to abuse the system like they did and their feet wont touch the floor :laugh:

As you can guess, we had no more problems from the teacher not doing their job and no more discipleine problems in class following these two instances.
I somehow doubt your child got a detention purely for questioning a teacher twice on a particular issue but anyway.......

In my experience the teachers are very good and it's parents who feel that angelic little Timmy can do no wrong has been wronged by the evil teacher.

Just as parents can do without having everything dictated to them teachers could also do with a break by not having someone who wouldn't know how to teach or deal out discipline if their life depended on it tell them how to do their job.

[Iain]

Well holidays are on a first come first served basis. My parents are here in a few weeks and I can't get the day off to pick them up. Tough titties. If you don't plan your holidays well enough in advance or someone wants the same holidays then it doesn't happen.

Don't even get me started on that issue, I could rant on all day about it. :mark: People at my work book 2 weeks off in the summer the previous October/November/December to do bugger all, just to "escape work". :angryfire

I wouldn't call a holiday a luxury. We had a holiday every year until I left school, no matter how tough that year was on my parents. One year my dad got made redundant and we had to cancel the holiday we had booked in Devon. But my parents were determined to get away somewhere and we picked up a short notice thing about 2 months beforehand and went on a coach trip to Kent for a week.

Got to think of the parents in this topic as well, if they can't get a week away somewhere nice with their kids to spend some quality time with them, then that must be quite depressing. Sod the education, some kids need more quality time with their parents rather than doing their times table.

[Flat.tyres]

I somehow doubt your child got a detention purely for questioning a teacher twice on a particular issue but anyway.......

In my experience the teachers are very good and it's parents who feel that angelic little Timmy can do no wrong has been wronged by the evil teacher.

Just as parents can do without having everything dictated to them teachers could also do with a break by not having someone who wouldn't know how to teach or deal out discipline if their life depended on it tell them how to do their job.

OK Daniel. I conceed that you are right in this case and know better than me about the circumstances of the situation just as you cracked the Madaline case, know more about racing lines and overtaking than the FIA stewards and are the font of all wisdom when it comes to conduct on the forum :rolleyes:

I personally have a lot of respect for the teachers at my school and take an active part in the running and support of the unit. That is not to say that they get it right all the time and fortunatly people work with the school on these occassions to ensure the high standards we demand are maintained.

This is just like in the Forum Feedback threads when I pointed out double standards and that I had been penalised for not breaking rules when the Mods said I had, and actually proved my case. Rather than accept you don't know everything, you come in with untrue statements about what actually happened at my childs school. Don't you consider yourself a bit condescending, pompous and like in that thread where you insisted that bad language should never be used on this forum, a tough hypocritical seeing as you fudged the swear filter and use swear abreviations on at least 2 occassions I have witnessed since then?

I do hope this isn't considered a personal attack and instead just pointing out the blinding obvious.

[Daniel]

Don't even get me started on that issue, I could rant on all day about it. :mark: People at my work book 2 weeks off in the summer the previous October/November/December to do bugger all, just to "escape work". :angryfire

I wouldn't call a holiday a luxury. We had a holiday every year until I left school, no matter how tough that year was on my parents. One year my dad got made redundant and we had to cancel the holiday we had booked in Devon. But my parents were determined to get away somewhere and we picked up a short notice thing about 2 months beforehand and went on a coach trip to Kent for a week.

Got to think of the parents in this topic as well, if they can't get a week away somewhere nice with their kids to spend some quality time with them, then that must be quite depressing. Sod the education, some kids need more quality time with their parents rather than doing their times table.
Perhaps I was lucky to be able to go off nearly each weekend for long periods to my grandparents house which was about 120 miles away so perhaps getting away wasn't such a scarce resource for me.

The thing is education is such an important thing. Do parents not have every evening and every weekend with their children? :mark: How about spending quality time with them then and bonding with them then? :mark:

[Daniel]

OK Daniel. I conceed that you are right in this case and know better than me about the circumstances of the situation just as you cracked the Madaline case, know more about racing lines and overtaking than the FIA stewards and are the font of all wisdom when it comes to conduct on the forum :rolleyes:

I personally have a lot of respect for the teachers at my school and take an active part in the running and support of the unit. That is not to say that they get it right all the time and fortunatly people work with the school on these occassions to ensure the high standards we demand are maintained.

This is just like in the Forum Feedback threads when I pointed out double standards and that I had been penalised for not breaking rules when the Mods said I had, and actually proved my case. Rather than accept you don't know everything, you come in with untrue statements about what actually happened at my childs school. Don't you consider yourself a bit condescending, pompous and like in that thread where you insisted that bad language should never be used on this forum, a tough hypocritical seeing as you fudged the swear filter and use swear abreviations on at least 2 occassions I have witnessed since then?

I do hope this isn't considered a personal attack and instead just pointing out the blinding obvious.
Sorry. I didn't spend half of last year as a classroom assistant at all :)

[Flat.tyres]

Sorry. I didn't spend half of last year as a classroom assistant at all :)

Figures ;)

[BeansBeansBeans]

Woah (that's English for 'Stop a Horse'). Let's calm down and be rational again - Bit rich coming from me I know, but I'm mellowing with age like a good cheese.

[Daniel]

Woah (that's English for 'Stop a Horse'). Let's calm down and be rational again - Bit rich coming from me I know, but I'm mellowing with age like a good cheese.
I thought as you aged cheese it got sharper in taste :angryfire

[Daniel]

Figures ;)
Well yes. It figures that I might want to share my experience of something that I have experience of. Isn't that what this forum is about? :mark:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Woah (that's English for 'Stop a Horse'). .

:rotflmao:

[Flat.tyres]

Woah (that's English for 'Stop a Horse'). Let's calm down and be rational again - Bit rich coming from me I know, but I'm mellowing with age like a good cheese.

That reminds me of a joke about feeling a little horse but I'd better not push it :laugh:

Cheese and Beans. Think it may be a JP for lunch :D

[Erki]

People at my work book 2 weeks off in the summer the previous October/November/December to do bugger all, just to "escape work". :angryfire
Why else would anyone go on a holiday anyway?



Got to think of the parents in this topic as well, if they can't get a week away somewhere nice with their kids to spend some quality time with them, then that must be quite depressing. Sod the education, some kids need more quality time with their parents rather than doing their times table.

Must be pretty depressing if one's everyday life is not a quality time. :)

[Daniel]

I agree Eki. I liked going on two weeks holiday in August to spend time with Caroline away from work and other things. But I don't feel like the other 48 weeks of the year are merely there to be inbetween the 4 weeks of holiday I get.

[Captain VXR]

If the kids are going on an educational holiday, by all means let them go. If it is not an educational one the parents could teach the kid the curriculum that they would miss during the nearest holidays :)

[Erki]

I agree Eki. I liked going on two weeks holiday in August to spend time with Caroline away from work and other things. But I don't feel like the other 48 weeks of the year are merely there to be inbetween the 4 weeks of holiday I get.

Are you a spy? Eki hasn't even shown his nose in this thread. :)

[Caroline]

In the last 3 days I have spent aproximately an hour of teaching time reintroducing topics and concepts taught last week (the first week back after the hols in Wales). This is because just over 10% of class were away on family holidays. That equates to losing one maths or language lesson.

I know some holidays are unavoidable. But some kids need to be in school. Not everyone is bright and able to catch up. When I am told that a kid is going on holiday I always prepare a folder of work for them to take along. I also expect to see it completed.

[slinkster]

It's not just overseas holidays. ANY holiday at peak season (i.e school holidays) are massively expensive. You look at a travel brochure and the prices plumet after september the 1st and that goes for holidays abroad and within the country. I sympathise with parents... and I'm not one myself... but I guess it comes down to priorities. We were never taken out of school ourselves but I know plenty of other children were.

[GridGirl]

What you're saying to me is, the world is divided into three groups: the first two are people who are disruptive in class and those who skive off from school, both of whom fail at school. The third group is, those who can afford to go off on overseas holidays all the time. I could never afford to go on holiday when I was at school. Thanks :mad:

To me, if you can't find the time to go on holiday, you don't.

I'm taking this so personally because it's a lot more expensive to go overseas from New Zealand than it is from the UK, and we could never afford to. For me it's a lot of snobbery but it's probably different for you.

No what I was saying is that I dont think there is a strong correlation between poor exam results and taking the odd week off to go on holiday. I'm sure you would see a stronger corelation between poor results and the other groups I mentioned and no it wasn't an exclusve group, they were merely examples.

The affordabilty of parents to take their kids on holiday in school time or not or whether they go abroad or holiday in their own country is a completely different issue to whether it affects their overall education as a whole over 12 complusary school years in the UK.

[Daniel]

In the last 3 days I have spent aproximately an hour of teaching time reintroducing topics and concepts taught last week (the first week back after the hols in Wales). This is because just over 10% of class were away on family holidays. That equates to losing one maths or language lesson.

I know some holidays are unavoidable. But some kids need to be in school. Not everyone is bright and able to catch up. When I am told that a kid is going on holiday I always prepare a folder of work for them to take along. I also expect to see it completed.
What would you know? What would a teacher know that a parent wouldn't know about teaching? :mark:

[GridGirl]

I thought you couldn't take kids out of school during term time now, or is that just a rule that is never enforced?

[Daniel]

I thought you couldn't take kids out of school during term time now, or is that just a rule that is never enforced?
No you're allowed to :) But anything more than two weeks goes down as being unauthorised. IIRC

[Iain]

The thing is education is such an important thing. Do parents not have every evening and every weekend with their children? :mark: How about spending quality time with them then and bonding with them then? :mark:

Think about shift work though Daniel. :) It's very common these days for parents to be working 12 hour shifts day or night to support their kids as that's where the money is. Even back when I was a kid, I hardly saw my mum during the week for the first few years of school, as she was working a 4pm-9pm shift in a factory.

[BDunnell]

I don't know why, but I feel very strongly that parents should be allowed to take their children out of school during term-time for holidays. My parents did so when I was 12, I didn't suffer at school as a result, and because we went to France for a fortnight it helped my learning of French. In addition, the argument that the cost of going away during the school holidays (not to mention the extra hassle of holidaying in high season) increases dramatically is a very compelling one. Let parents do it, I say.

[Flat.tyres]

In the last 3 days I have spent aproximately an hour of teaching time reintroducing topics and concepts taught last week (the first week back after the hols in Wales). This is because just over 10% of class were away on family holidays. That equates to losing one maths or language lesson.

I know some holidays are unavoidable. But some kids need to be in school. Not everyone is bright and able to catch up. When I am told that a kid is going on holiday I always prepare a folder of work for them to take along. I also expect to see it completed.

Very good point Caroline. As a teaching professional, you obviously experience the impact on a class of children taking extracirricular breaks.

In your opinion, can taking a child out of class be beneficial if done in co-operation with the school and is the impact on the class that you mentioned relevantly detrimental or something that an experienced teacher can manage successfully?

[Daniel]

Think about shift work though Daniel. :) It's very common these days for parents to be working 12 hour shifts day or night to support their kids as that's where the money is. Even back when I was a kid, I hardly saw my mum during the week for the first few years of school, as she was working a 4pm-9pm shift in a factory.
Thing is the vast majority of people don't work shiftwork like that :) Of course it's different for people like that :)

[Flat.tyres]

Thing is the vast majority of people don't work shiftwork like that :) Of course it's different for people like that :)

I hardly ever see my kids during the week apart from a few minutes in the morning and kissing them normally when they are asleep at night. My kids go to bed at 7:30 and it's rare I'm back by then.

I suppose I should take a 50% pay cut and give up my career should i Daniel so I can be there more. What do you think because I really need your experience and advice :D

[Daniel]

I hardly ever see my kids during the week apart from a few minutes in the morning and kissing them normally when they are asleep at night. My kids go to bed at 7:30 and it's rare I'm back by then.

I suppose I should take a 50% pay cut and give up my career should i Daniel so I can be there more. What do you think because I really need your experience and advice :D
Well it's your choice. A lot of parents tend to shape their lives around their children rather than their children around their lives.

[Iain]

Thing is the vast majority of people don't work shiftwork like that :) Of course it's different for people like that :)

Shiftwork is a lot more common than you think, especially in this area anyway. All the traditional industries have gone and have been replaced by factories running 24-7. Very rarely do you find a 9-5 Mon-Fri factory job round here and when you do the money's rubbish.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Well it's your choice. A lot of parents tend to shape their lives around their children rather than their children around their lives.

It's easy to be a parent when you don't have any children.

[Daniel]

It's easy to be a parent when you don't have any children.
Yes and you become a parent by default when you give birth too.

[Caroline]

Very good point Caroline. As a teaching professional, you obviously experience the impact on a class of children taking extracirricular breaks.

In your opinion, can taking a child out of class be beneficial if done in co-operation with the school and is the impact on the class that you mentioned relevantly detrimental or something that an experienced teacher can manage successfully?


For me personally it is frustrating. With the curriculum jam packed as it is a pupil can miss an entire project, especially practical work, in a fortnight. Some children are able to get so much from holidays etc and cope upon return, others just don't. It depends on the child and the family and the importance of education in their lives. Arranging with the teacher some extra relevant work is an excellent idea and will at least give pupils a chance to catch up/not feel excluded when they return.

You know a fortnight is acceptable, but there are parents who have split and then take pupils on 2 different family holidays per year. It is increasingly common for up to four weeks of term time being used for holidays. That, in my opinion is too much.

[Erki]

With the curriculum jam packed as it is a pupil can miss an entire project, especially practical work, in a fortnight.

I think having a jam packed curriculum itself is already borderline ridiculous. I don't think it's right to pump "knowledge" into pupils, students, or just about anyone.

[Drew]

Sod it, a couple of days isn't going to kill anybody. I should know the amount of time I've missed school :\

[Flat.tyres]

For me personally it is frustrating. With the curriculum jam packed as it is a pupil can miss an entire project, especially practical work, in a fortnight. Some children are able to get so much from holidays etc and cope upon return, others just don't. It depends on the child and the family and the importance of education in their lives. Arranging with the teacher some extra relevant work is an excellent idea and will at least give pupils a chance to catch up/not feel excluded when they return.

You know a fortnight is acceptable, but there are parents who have split and then take pupils on 2 different family holidays per year. It is increasingly common for up to four weeks of term time being used for holidays. That, in my opinion is too much.

:up: Thank you for such a measured, frank and insightfull response. I agree totally.

[Daniel]

:up: Thank you for such a measured, frank and insightfull response. I agree totally.
Errrr.... I pretty much said the same thing. If a child is already behind then a 2 week holiday does them more harm then good :mark:

[Flat.tyres]

Errrr.... I pretty much said the same thing. If a child is already behind then a 2 week holiday does them more harm then good :mark:

Really :confused:

Your partner gave a reasoned, balanced, holistic view on the advantages and disadvantages of removing a child during term time, how it was beneficial, the challenges it posed, how those challenges can be mitigated by working in conjunction with the parents and the abuse of the system that sometimes takes place.

I re-read all your posts and cannot see where you said pretty much the same thing? In fact, your central arguement is that parents should earn more if they want to take children on Holiday so they can do it during the break and that little Timmy would be doomed to a lifetime without being able to calculate multiplication as a result if not. ;)

Oh, you did say that if you were a parent, then you would take them to a battle scene but didn't make it clear if this was during term (whether or not they are behind) or during the holidays.

If you were trying to convey the salient points in Carolines post then I commend you. Perhaps she can compose your posts on other subjects as well so we may better understand your views :p : :laugh:

[tinchote]

Indeed. At a young age the education they receive isn't like a degree course where you do certain material once and if you miss that week you never see it again. It's more general skills built up over a long period of time. Missing a week out of term is no big deal IMO.

(We only ever took one 2 week holiday, when I was 8, the rest were 1 week.)

I agree with that statement. But part of the "general" education that they receive in those first years, is responsibility. So school has to be taken as something serious.

Having said that, we do take our girls out of school for our holidays ;) But, we have a good reason for that. The seasons between Canada and Argentina are switched, so if we go during Canadian holidays, we get to Argentina in the winter and with our friends in the middle of the school year. So almost every year we take our girls out of school for a couple of weeks. Every time we make arrangements with the teacher and take homework with us. Last February it fit kind of perfectly, because the topic of that month at school was "multiculturalism": what better than taking them to live in another culture for a few weeks? :D

There is another "school-skipping" that I see and worries me. Many kids here are involved in competitive sports programs that require them training up to 20 hours a week. Many of those kids leave school early one or two days a week every week. That's really bad in my opinion, not that much because of the lost knowledge but because of the place where school appears in these families priorities :s