In your opinion, which is most likely to exist.

[Flat.tyres]

God or UFO's (in the alien sense)

Could we possibly have a poll please Mr Moderator :kiss:

[LotusElise]

UFOs.

[BDunnell]

Sorry to be boring, but there's no doubt that UFOs do exist — there are flying objects which are unidentified.

[Flat.tyres]

Sorry to be boring, but there's no doubt that UFOs do exist — there are flying objects which are unidentified.

I anticipated someone might be pedantic which is why the comment was added in brackets :laugh:

Lets look on the face of it then.

God. Belived to exist by millions of people with no referencable proof other then faith while UFO have numerous conspiracy theories and alledged cover up's but again no tangible, quantifiable, concrete proof.

You see, the question exists that according to the bible, if UFO's are actually proven to exist one day, would it not prove that God, as we understand him to be, doesn't?

[SEATFreak]

I have a book by writers David Southwell and Sean Twist. It is called "Conspiracy Files: Paranoia Secrecy Intrigue" (ISBN No. 1-86200-141-3).

In it their stuff about the worlds most famous or infamous consipracies. Deaths/dissapearances of famous people, events and phenomenon. It mentions facts, possible culprits and certain evidence to prove it. But the book also tells you about the possible culprits behind the afoementioned deaths, events and phenomenon. Secret organisations.

Their isn't just the famous ones like the CIA and FBI (or Governments and even the Royal Family which the book claims are at work secretyly) but their is secret ones like the NWO, The Bavarian Illuminati or MJ-12. It is those I am more likely to believe in than say the Bermuda Triangle, ghosts or aliens.

[Zico]

I'm agnostic.. ;) If there is a God he isnt the one portrayed to us by religion.. at least the one I was born and brought up in.
More chance of their being Aliens I suppose..

[Dave B]

There are billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars. It's inconceivable that there isn't some life out there beyond Earth.

Whether or not they've managed to achieve "manned" flight over many light years is debatable, but far more likely than what religion would have us believe.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Do Aliens exist?

For every grain of sand on Earth there are at least a million stars. That means that there will be millions of planetary systems throughout the universe like the Solar System. It is almost impossible that life in some form doesn't exist anywhere else. Many scientists believe that the seed for life on Earth came from an impact from a comet that had micro-organisms living on it.

If there is intelligent life out there then the chances of us ever meeting them is small due to the huge distances in space.

[Sleeper]

UFO's. I find it hard to believe that in this rather gigantic universe we are the only sentient life form. And if thats the case then some are going to be less technically developed as us and others are going to be moe so.

Being an Agnostic God could or could not exist and it wouldnt bother me either way, but I see the existence of extra terrestrial life forms as being a given.

[SEATFreak]

Do aliens exist?

I don't think the US Government on the happening of Roswell in 1947 at Area 51 would have gone to the trouble of forming MJ-12 if the entire affair was just a hoax and the dead alien we see was a cleverly constructed fake.

For those that don't know MJ-12 is basically short for Majestic 12. Twelve millitary boffins asigned to research Roswell. But most notoriously, according to the material I have, through the work they helped the US goverment sign a treaty with aliens to perform tests on people and animals in return for technical data and also agreed through "Project Garnet" and "Operation Delta" to surpess any alien presence evidence by any means necessary. Especially Operation Delta where personell are used. The MiB is one. No. Not the movie with Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith but those based on them.

It is all above me but I am quite prepared to believe that their is aliens - only the foundation for the sceptisicm is some top secret organisation that is surpressing us from believing it.

[Zico]

I am quite prepared to believe that their is aliens - only the foundation for the sceptisicm is some top secret organisation that is surpressing us from believing it.

Supression?.. I'd be more inclined to say the opposite, the Aliens theory being the perfect cover for top secret military technologies which aren't supposed to exist.

[Firstgear]

There are billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars. It's inconceivable that there isn't some life out there beyond Earth.


You're right. If life if just a chance occurance, then with billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars, there should be billions of planets with life. If we're alone in this universe, it must have been God that created us, not just a simple lightning bolt in a mud pond somewhere starting the cycle of life.

So......if there are billions of planets with life, approx. half should have life that is more developed than earth's, and half less developed. This still leaves us with billions of planets with life that is more developed than ours here on earth. SETI has been looking for life up in the sky (using satellite dishes looking for radio waves that travel an infinate distance) for years and found nothing. If there is life on these billions of planets, SETI should be getting bombarded with signals from every direction. Yet they find nothing.

It's ironic to me that the group setting out to prove that life on other planets exists is actually achieving the exact opposite.

I'll stand with God on this one.

[Dave B]

But say there's a planet in a similar state to Earth a few million years back: many species of plants, lush vegetation, oceans full of fish... you wouldn't expect to find any radio signals but equally you wouldn't say there was no life out there.

You're right that SETI hasn't proved the existance of ET, but you cannot claim that the opposite is true - there's no proof ET doesn't exist.

Of course, the same could be said for god, but nobody's yet propsed any way of detecting him/it.

[Andrewmcm]

So......if there are billions of planets with life, approx. half should have life that is more developed than earth's, and half less developed. This still leaves us with billions of planets with life that is more developed than ours here on earth. SETI has been looking for life up in the sky (using satellite dishes looking for radio waves that travel an infinate distance) for years and found nothing. If there is life on these billions of planets, SETI should be getting bombarded with signals from every direction. Yet they find nothing.

It's ironic to me that the group setting out to prove that life on other planets exists is actually achieving the exact opposite.


Remembering of course that radio waves are part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and they along with all other parts of the spectrum travel at a finite velocity, 300 million metres per second. We've had 100 years of radio communication, so for a message to reach an alien civilisation and for them to respond will put our "radius of noise" if you will at roughly 50 light years. In terms of the dimensions of the Milky Way (radius of 50,000 light years), then you can see that we're going to be sitting here for a long time waiting for an alien society to respond to us. We live in a relatively quiet corner of the Universe, so it's not surprising that nothing has responded directly to human beings.

Of course, there is nothing to say that we won't intercept signals from aliens and be able to respond to them. Assuming evolution occurs in a similar manner as to what has happened on Earth (and let's face it, we don't have any other benchmarks), then species may only have life cycles of a few hundred thousand to a few million years. Being intelligent doesn't necessarily mean understanding how to transmit electromagnetic signals, so not all planets with life on them will be "radio noisy". It doesn't surprise me that SETI haven't found anything yet, but they may do one day. Interpreting what they may receive, however, will be an entirely different story!

We barely have the technology to determine whether or not life exists (or did) on our neighbouring planets and their moons. It's also interesting to note that much of the Solar System we live in (Earth's distance from the Sun, the presence of a larger than normal moon companion, Jupiter being where it is) are particularly favourable for life to appear on this planet. Many of the extra-solar planets found thus far are of comparable size to Jupiter, but in an Earth-like or closer orbit to their host star. A lot of this has to do with the technology used to find these planets, and in time more Earth-like planets will be found, but it does demonstrate that fortune (or whatever you choose to believe in) has helped produce the chain of events that lead up to me posting this message on this forum... ;)

[Rollo]

Assuming God exists, then why is it impossible that they wouldn't create other life? If the experiment can be done once, then an inifinite being can easily repeat the process.

The initial question I think is flawed.

[fandango]

It is all above me but I am quite prepared to believe that their is aliens - only the foundation for the sceptisicm is some top secret organisation that is surpressing us from believing it.


C'mon now, you can't be "prepared to believe". Either you believe or you don't. Yes or no. That's what believing means.

For me, well I don't see the connection. One thing is to think there may be other sentient beings in the universe (who can fly). Another is to think that there's a God. I reckon you can believe one or the other independently. Or both.

I don't go for either.

[LeonBrooke]

You see, the question exists that according to the bible, if UFO's are actually proven to exist one day, would it not prove that God, as we understand him to be, doesn't?

Not necessarily. I don't think that they're mutually exclusive. I'm hardly a believer in either, but I'm keeping an open mind.

[veeten]

so, what does that make me?... :alien:

:p :

[Dave B]

Put it this way: I've seen evidence that life can exist. I see it all around me, every single day.

I've yet to see any evidence that god exists. If somebody can provide this evidence then I'm willing to admit he/it exists, but I refuse to just assume there's a god just because it's a widely held opinion.

[gadjo_dilo]

Both.

[gadjo_dilo]

Put it this way: I've seen evidence that life can exist. I see it all around me, every single day.

I've yet to see any evidence that god exists. If somebody can provide this evidence then I'm willing to admit he/it exists, but I refuse to just assume there's a god just because it's a widely held opinion.

What sort of evidence do you need? I understand you admit the existance only if you can see it.. Do the wind exist? Can you see it?
Are you sure man has a soul? Have you ever seen it?

[Flat.tyres]

Assuming God exists, then why is it impossible that they wouldn't create other life? If the experiment can be done once, then an inifinite being can easily repeat the process.

The initial question I think is flawed.

According to the book of fiction, God made all this lovely universe thing and then set about creating man in his image.

I don't remember him taking up a hobby of popping a few other races of people on the leftover planets.

Also, if they are more advanced and have existed longer than us, I'm a bit confused as to how that could happen when the universe didn't exist till a few days before the earth?

Just doing my basic maths and 1 and 1 isn't anywhere near 2 if aliens exist.

By the way, how do you get a poll in this place?

[janneppi]

what would the question and options be, PM them to me, so i can try to work out how to make it.

[Flat.tyres]

what would the question and options be, PM them to me, so i can try to work out how to make it.

PM sent. I think it's quite straightforward and shouldn't be too complicated ;)

[leopard]

What sort of evidence do you need? I understand you admit the existance only if you can see it.. Do the wind exist? Can you see it?
Are you sure man has a soul? Have you ever seen it?
An easy digesting analogue, right, if we can't see Him, He keeps watching on us, He closes to us right there in our heart. :)

[LeonBrooke]

We need more poll options: "both" and "neither".

[Flat.tyres]

We need more poll options: "both" and "neither".

Is there no doubt in your mind that neither exist or that both definatly do?

That's the thing about an opinion on 2 things that are subjective and potentially mutually exclusive.

[ChrisS]

I'm not sure what you mean with UFOs. at the title you say Alien UFOs but the poll option is just Aliens

If you mean extraterrestrial life I believe it exists

If you mean alien visitors that came to earth then I don't believe they exist

[leopard]

Please note down, poll is poll ;) :)

[Hawkmoon]

What sort of evidence do you need? I understand you admit the existance only if you can see it.. Do the wind exist? Can you see it?
Are you sure man has a soul? Have you ever seen it?

Not only can you see the wind, you can feel it.

Just my opinion ofcourse but, no, man doesn't have a soul. Just as there is no god. Both are constructs of primative peoples trying to explain things they didn't understand.

I think we are a little better educated these days which is why the only new "religions" we get these days are things like Scientology which, ironically enough given the topic of this thread, says that god is an alien. :D

[Flat.tyres]

Not only can you see the wind, you can feel it.

Just my opinion ofcourse but, no, man doesn't have a soul. Just as there is no god. Both are constructs of primative peoples trying to explain things they didn't understand.

I think we are a little better educated these days which is why the only new "religions" we get these days are things like Scientology which, ironically enough given the topic of this thread, says that god is an alien. :D

Wasn't scientology invented for a joke or something?

[ChrisS]

What sort of evidence do you need? I understand you admit the existance only if you can see it.. Do the wind exist? Can you see it?
Are you sure man has a soul? Have you ever seen it?

If no one sees, hears, touches or smells an object, how could that object exist?
There are theories that argue that something only exists when its being observed.

a common example of this argument is the "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" riddle

[NoFender]

To think either one does not exist is very selfish.

[LeonBrooke]

Wasn't scientology invented for a joke or something?

Even worse - it was a money-making exercise. Churches were tax-exempt, so L Ron Hubbard decided to start a church because it was a good way to make free money :eek: and people took it seriously...

[Hawkmoon]

To think either one does not exist is very selfish.

Why is that? I don't think Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, ghosts or vampires exist either. Why does that make me selfish? :confused:

[jso1985]

Not only can you see the wind, you can feel it.



I can feel there's a God.

I believe there's a God, of course, it can't be proven as something material, but more than once I felt there's a superior being above me.
As for aliens, I also believe they exist, although I definitely doubt there's any form of life capable of doing very long trips across the universe. although a few months ago I saw a pretty much intesting documentary about the universe, where they pointed out a theory where the earth would be on the exact point of the universe where life is possible, on other parts is just not possible for many reasons.

[Hawkmoon]

I can feel there's a God.

I believe there's a God, of course, it can't be proven as something material, but more than once I felt there's a superior being above me.

I mean't that you can feel the wind on your face as a physical sensation, providing tactile proof that wind exists.

The feel you are referring to is still based on faith or belief. You can't use any of your senses to prove that your god is there. You just need to believe.

[jso1985]

that was my point.
you just need to believe, wheter you want or not is not my bussiness

[leopard]

God exist, you just need to believe, unlike creature no need shape neither logo ;)

[Flat.tyres]

I believe there's a God, of course, it can't be proven as something material, but more than once I felt there's a superior being above me.

My missus says that's called Marriage ;)

[Dave B]

What sort of evidence do you need? I understand you admit the existance only if you can see it.. Do the wind exist? Can you see it?
Are you sure man has a soul? Have you ever seen it?
The way science works is to come up with a hypothesis, then to create a repeatable experiment with proper controls in place to test that theory. It's perfectly possible to measure atmospheric pressure in two locations and to measure the airflow between them. This experiment could be repeated many many times and the results tabulated. The results could then be subject to rigourous peer review, and it could be proven beyond reasonable doubt that wind exists.

No such evidence has ever been presented for the existance of any god, ghosts, psychic ability, angels, fairies, elves, pixies, the tooth fairy, Girls Aloud's vocal ability, mind reading, astrology, phrenology, feng shui, crystal healing, or any kind of soul other than that practiced by the late great James Brown.

[gadjo_dilo]

I mean't that you can feel the wind on your face as a physical sensation, providing tactile proof that wind exists.

The feel you are referring to is still based on faith or belief. You can't use any of your senses to prove that your god is there. You just need to believe.
Hmm...In other words what one of our senses miss can be proved with the help of another and things/phenomena exists only as long as we can physically perceive them ( although a pain in my head is also a physical sensation and most of the times I don't know what caused it ).
But they say that God is the supreme energy that created the world and holds it together harmoniously. Are you sure that our physical sensations could be enough to feel it?
In my humble opinion, man is too much focused on his instinctual life ignoring his spirit. I think it's time to stop being only rational animals with the ability to talk.

[Hawkmoon]

Hmm...In other words what one of our senses miss can be proved with the help of another and things/phenomena exists only as long as we can physically perceive them ( although a pain in my head is also a physical sensation and most of the times I don't know what caused it ).
But they say that God is the supreme energy that created the world and holds it together harmoniously. Are you sure that our physical sensations could be enough to feel it?
In my humble opinion, man is too much focused on his instinctual life ignoring his spirit. I think it's time to stop being only rational animals with the ability to talk.

I have the same opinion as Dave. Until somebody can rationally prove that gods, ghosts, aliens etc exist then I see no reason to think that they're anything other than myths, legends, fairy tales and figments of peoples imaginations.

I put things like the "soul" and "spirit" in the same category as gods etc. That is, holdovers from a time when people didn't have enough knowledge to explain things, so had to make stuff up to help them understand their experiences.

But hey, whatever makes you feel good is alright by me. :)

[gadjo_dilo]

The way science works is to come up with a hypothesis, then to create a repeatable experiment with proper controls in place to test that theory. It's perfectly possible to measure atmospheric pressure in two locations and to measure the airflow between them. This experiment could be repeated many many times and the results tabulated. The results could then be subject to rigourous peer review, and it could be proven beyond reasonable doubt that wind exists..
So what do the scientific experiments say about the human soul? Does it exist or not? Could they measure it or recreate it in a laboratory?


No such evidence has ever been presented for the existance of any god, ghosts, psychic ability, angels, fairies, elves, pixies, the tooth fairy, Girls Aloud's vocal ability, mind reading, astrology, phrenology, feng shui, crystal healing, or any kind of soul other than that practiced by the late great James Brown.

There is no evidence because science is concentrated only on the physical/material world, its principles are material, its final purpose is the material advantage and because it haven't the instruments to study the esoterical world.

As long as science wouldn't ever be able to answer the most important question, namely why are we on earth and isn't ready to answer the needs of human soul I wouldn't rely only on it to understand what happens around me.

[NoFender]

Why is that? I don't think Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, ghosts or vampires exist either. Why does that make me selfish? :confused:

Never said anything about the fairly tales you mentioned.

To think there is no big picture but your world, is pretty selfish.

To think we are the only creatures in this universe, is pretty selfish.

That's all. jmo

[Drew]

Interesting results so far. 6 God, 20 Aliens, both and neither 1.

Personally I don't believe in God. But because of the size of the universe I find it impossible to believe we are the only beings out there

[Hawkmoon]

Never said anything about the fairly tales you mentioned.

To think there is no big picture but your world, is pretty selfish.

To think we are the only creatures in this universe, is pretty selfish.

That's all. jmo

I wasn't suggesting that I'm the centre of the universe or even that the Earth is the centre of the universe.

The fact that I don't believe in fate, destiny or the will of the gods doesn't make me selfish. I simply believe that we pretty much "make it up as we go along".

I'm also not trying to suggest that gods or aliens can't exist. I simply don't believe in them because I've seen no evidence to prove their existence and I've never been all that big on faith.

So until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll keep gods and aliens in the same category as all the other fairy tale creatures.

[leopard]

Believe in God as also judgment day, will give guidance on the right direction from wrong, as we believe every kindness and wickedness have their own consequences.
I tend to consider that believing something beyond our power reflects to perceive that human naturally bear mistake and error whether by intention or not, and only the Almighty who is free from mistakes, that such an opinion will distinguish from being selfish person.
Such belief that He is close in our heart will give us more strength on confidence especially in the situation where to gain help from others is impossible to afford.

Seems the fail on believing is continued exertion of comparison of Its existence with human logical secular scientifically on the way of thinking. For those insist the religion is not supposed exist because of its contradiction with logical function and it came already to dead end, it would be harmless to learn more about more religion come across to something different, and find out which religion has no contradiction or less contradiction with that said logical function. imo.

[rah]

I guess I just don't beleive in god because I have never seen a reason to. There is no evidence at all of any god in any form.

If you have faith, good for you. I have no problem with people who have faith, except when they try to force their views on others.

Faith is not needed whatsoever to justify beeing a "good" person. In fact you could say that religion has caused so many deaths throughout the world that maybe the opposite is true. But that would be incorrect because there are good religous people and bad religous people. Just like there are good athiests and bad athiests. What I am trying to say is that religion does not have an effect on whether you are a good person or not.

[leopard]

I guess I just don't beleive in god because I have never seen a reason to. There is no evidence at all of any god in any form.
What evidence that must be available to make the doubters convinced? I think our life is concrete evidence.



If you have faith, good for you. I have no problem with people who have faith, except when they try to force their views on others.
I don't think those who have faith and rightly implemented it in the capacity of forcing their views on others.



Faith is not needed whatsoever to justify beeing a "good" person. In fact you could say that religion has caused so many deaths throughout the world that maybe the opposite is true. But that would be incorrect because there are good religous people and bad religous people. Just like there are good athiests and bad athiests. What I am trying to say is that religion does not have an effect on whether you are a good person or not.
Religion teach its believer to be good person, bad person although he has faith just because he didn't implement the religion in due course. Just like norm of law, the crook have to responsible for all crimes they have made as it up against the law, although they maybe religious. They have obviously ignored norms of religion once they performed that crimes, because it has been clearly taught that disadvantaging others is forbidden.

[rah]

What evidence that must be available to make the doubters convinced? I think our life is concrete evidence.


I don't think those who have faith and rightly implemented it in the capacity of forcing their views on others.


Religion teach its believer to be good person, bad person although he has faith just because he didn't implement the religion in due course. Just like norm of law, the crook have to responsible for all crimes they have made as it up against the law, although they maybe religious. They have obviously ignored norms of religion once they performed that crimes, because it has been clearly taught that disadvantaging others is forbidden.

But there is no evidence that a god created life.

I think that spreading itself is the main aim or most if not all religions. I don't like it when someone tries to force their view or beliefs onto others.

That part about disadvantaging others must be a newer lesson, because history tells us that is simply not the case. I think that as a society becomes less religious, it's morals actually get better.

[leopard]

I think that spreading itself is the main aim or most if not all religions. I don't like it when someone tries to force their view or beliefs onto others.
Any action directing to movement of spreading a religion as much as possible carried out by notifying those need the help because they don't really know about the said religion, and why should we have religion. I didn't see any problem with notifying others, although the result of which will back depend on the said person after being notified.

There are massive undesirable movement of spreading a religion with compensation to whom want come to their group with some amount or beautiful job, because fortunately this believer have better prosperity than others. However method used for this sort of spreading will be back to conjugation of the said person.



That part about disadvantaging others must be a newer lesson, because history tells us that is simply not the case. I think that as a society becomes less religious, it's morals actually get better.
Religions teach good moral it has no contradiction whatsoever as long as it is implemented in right order.


But there is no evidence that a god created life.
Having said that it is harmless to try learning or at least reading how life was created. Insisting on our opinion and took all logically acceptable for our mind for granted isn't always good.
Were human and this life exist by itself? :)

[Flat.tyres]

Quite a mixed response and the sort of split I would expect.

It's funny that the "faith" or "belief" question is applicable to both arguements.

People believe in god with no logical or scientific proof whereas there is an arguement that UFO's / Aliens have no scientific or referencable "proof" apart from rumour, heresay, allergation and conspiracy. Yet people believe there is more chance of there being UFO's / Aliens because of a "faith" or "belief" in the chnces of probability.

ergo, Science is the new religion. Now, where are the Babel fish stored.

[Mihai]

I remember what Einstein said about UFOs: they could be our grand-grand-children visiting us from the future. That's a supposition that could meld in the time travelling theory.