It's biological, isn't it?

[kalasend]

First, this is not about racism.

From watching his GP2 races to now in F1, one of LH's biggest characteristic is his surprise overtakings on track. He loves to gamble on slimmer chances than usual. And so far it looks to be rewarding for him.

And his ability to complete this sort of stunts seem to boil down to his exceptional braking ability. I.e. he can often brake later than others without compromising much of his turn. And I think this has to do with him being black. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for racial fairness. But when it comes to biology, we just can do nothing about it.

Black people are born with quicker reflexes and leaner, faster muscles. I have no doubt about it. That's the primary reason we see so many black athletes especially in sports that are more closely practiced (ie. players standing closer to each other, and have more body interactions. E.g basketballs, boxing). Statistics support this too.

Braking in F1(or any motorsport) is all about reflexes. When your body is under heavy load, even the slightest difference is sensitivity can affect hugely. Same can also be said about LH's preference of oversteer-inclined car. His reflex gives better ability to correct the car and also suits his overtaking style: if he often brakes late to overtake, he needs more oversteer to exit.

Of course, so far blacks are much less seen in motorsports. Therefore I am only speculating here. But I believe motor racing may well be another kind of sport that blacks can do very well instinctively. Of course, having a bright career in motorsport takes much more than natural instinct.

What do you all think? Again, there's no discrimination here. Just some hypothesis based on observation.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'd say it was a mix of his natural talent, and the hard work and experience he's put in prior to F1. I think it's rather fanciful to suggest that black people have a genetic superiority in F1 based on the success of one driver, who let us not forget, is of mixed-race.

[Hondo]

I think he's young and young people think they're bullet proof and race with a "win or die trying" attitude. I did. Go to any motocross track and watch the youngsters race. You'll see what I mean. They'd think nothing of centerpunching and running over their own mothers if the ol' git wandered in front of them while they were leading a moto.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

there may be some truth to it: but how do you prove it?

[Mikeall]

I think you're wrong because motor racing is more of a skill which is learnt and connected to how the brain learns and develops rather than any inherent muscle characteristics.

I also think your wrong to bring up a subject like this and its not a topic anyone can comment on either way without possibly offending someone in some way.

[Malbec]

Black people are born with quicker reflexes and leaner, faster muscles. I have no doubt about it. That's the primary reason we see so many black athletes especially in sports that are more closely practiced (ie. players standing closer to each other, and have more body interactions. E.g basketballs, boxing).

Reflex speeds are simply dependent on neurone transmission velocities. People have been trying to find differences between races in the structure and physiology of their neurological systems for many decades, namely the Nazis. Unfortunately for your hypothesis no difference has been found.

I'd also say that n=1 in your study which makes for a pretty poor sample size, skewed even more by the fact that Hamilton is 50% Anglo-Saxon.

Braking in F1 and any other type of motorsport is about experience, guts and sensitivity. You're not reacting to anything unless something untowards happens during your braking, instead a good driver will be plotting their braking from way beforehand to do it optimally so reflexes don't enter the equation.

So I'm afraid your theories don't stand.

[Sandfly]

First, this is not about racism.

Black people are born with quicker reflexes and leaner, faster muscles. I have no doubt about it. That's the primary reason we see so many black athletes especially in sports that are more closely practiced (ie. players standing closer to each other, and have more body interactions. E.g basketballs, boxing). Statistics support this too.....

Of course, so far blacks are much less seen in motorsports. Therefore I am only speculating here. But I believe motor racing may well be another kind of sport that blacks can do very well instinctively. Of course, having a bright career in motorsport takes much more than natural instinct.

What do you all think? Again, there's no discrimination here. Just some hypothesis based on observation.

Man you obviously do not live around here. While you may not intend your observations to be about racism, the suggestion that LH might have quicker reflexes will be percieved by some as a criticism of him ( and blacks ) by implying that with such natural talents he does not 1) have to work as hard 2) be as "smart" etc... Your observation has been made by other observers /commentators ( with widespread scientific support - well studied by athletic scouts and others who depend on such info for recruiting ) who made the point and then immediatly lost thier jobs under attack from the black community for having implied one of the above listed criticisms.

It is a lose/ lose topic. Lewis is a great talent. I'd like to see him win the championship.

[tinchote]

I agree with kalasend :up:

People of African descent (let's be politically correct here ;) ) seem to have better natural conditions for many physical activities. So it's natural to conjecture that LH's genes may be helping him.

Of course we cannot prove it, but that's true of 99% of the things that are said on these forums ;) I don't see anything wrong with discussing and speculating about this.

[tinchote]

Reflex speeds are simply dependent on neurone transmission velocities. People have been trying to find differences between races in the structure and physiology of their neurological systems for many decades, namely the Nazis. Unfortunately for your hypothesis no difference has been found.


So, according to you, why is it that all record holders in track and field, most of the best boxers, most of the best basketball players, etc., happen to have African blood? Any conspiracy theory? :)

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

I agree with kalasend :up:

People of African descent (let's be politically correct here ;) ) seem to have better natural conditions for many physical activities. So it's natural to conjecture that LH's genes may be helping him.

Of course we cannot prove it, but that's true of 99% of the things that are said on these forums ;) I don't see anything wrong with discussing and speculating about this.

well, as someone of african, spanish, hindu, and english descent, i take absolutely no offence at this type of speculation: we meter things everyday, consciously and subconsciously. this i think though, is impossible to quantify.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

no one knows absolutely, how the human body works, if we did, we'ld have a cure for aids, cancer, and all the other things which ail us. why, we'ld have a way to stop aging when we wanted to. the thing is, what are the factors, the variables that define these things? maybe in another 100years?

[cosmicpanda]

So, according to you, why is it that all record holders in track and field, most of the best boxers, most of the best basketball players, etc., happen to have African blood? Any conspiracy theory? :)

Personally, if I were them, I would consider it an insult to have my sucesses dismissed purely because of genetics, when it's much more likely to be years of hard work and dedication.

I have played the piano for some years now, and after a performance (at least, after one that has gone well :p : ) it's not uncommon for people to come up to me gushing about how my long fingers and "lack of nerves" let me play well. They seem to be implying that it's my genes that create a natural ability in me that allows me to play the piano, but they're flat out wrong. Practice makes perfect, yes?

I imagine that there are many reasons that result in the large number of sportspeople with African descent. Perhaps it is cultural? Being from New Zealand, I cannot really comment on the cultural circumstances in other countries, but I cannot imagine that everything comes down to genetics. Don't forget that genetics are not the only thing that can contribute to an individual's overall characteristics. As examples, if a person goes to the gym regularly they will have bigger muscles than those who do not go to the gym, and if they drive racing cars regularly, they are more likely to be better at it than other people who do not.

[Firstgear]

There are differences between races other than the obvious such as skin, hair & eye color. If I remember correctly, the average Inuit has a more spherical head. This minimizes surface area of the head (where much body heat is lost due to the large amount of blood flow to the head) which in turn helps to decrease heat loss. Also, I believe (again going on memory) that Africans have a longer femor(sp?) in relation to their height compared to other races. This may help explain their dominance in some sports. A friend of mine that studies Karate tells me Oriental people are the opposite, giving them a lower center of gravity.

I'm sure Lewis has faster reflexes than the average person, but I think it's more down to coincidence, not race. I would think all the F1 drivers have extremely fast reflexes.

I just happened to see a blurb on Discovery Channel today on Babe Ruth. Tests were done on him during his best season in the major leagues. These tests had nothing directly to do with baseball, but help explain why he was such an increadable hitter. One test was a repetative hand/eye motion test. Another was a sight/recognition test. He scored WAY above the average person. I'm sure Lewis would do similarily well.

So take the natural genetic talents, add years of training, desire, fearlessness of youth......and you've got a very rare and exceptional driver.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

There are differences between races other than the obvious such as skin, hair & eye color. If I remember correctly, the average Inuit has a more spherical head. This minimizes surface area of the head (where much body heat is lost due to the large amount of blood flow to the head) which in turn helps to decrease heat loss. Also, I believe (again going on memory) that Africans have a longer femor(sp?) in relation to their height compared to other races. This may help explain their dominance in some sports. A friend of mine that studies Karate tells me Oriental people are the opposite, giving them a lower center of gravity.

I'm sure Lewis has faster reflexes than the average person, but I think it's more down to coincidence, not race. I would think all the F1 drivers have extremely fast reflexes.

I just happened to see a blurb on Discovery Channel today on Babe Ruth. Tests were done on him during his best season in the major leagues. These tests had nothing directly to do with baseball, but help explain why he was such an increadable hitter. One test was a repetative hand/eye motion test. Another was a sight/recognition test. He scored WAY above the average person. I'm sure Lewis would do similarily well.

So take the natural genetic talents, add years of training, desire, fearlessness of youth......and you've got a very rare and exceptional driver.

i agree. environmental, cultural, genes, how do we establish any absolutes without contaminating such an experiment, that the results would be acceptale?
i don't know hamilton's outlook, but my experience is, what do i need to do to elevate my skill set, so that i can compete or fight(soldier here) and win.

for all we know, it may be his caucasion genes?

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

What I love about Lewis Hamilton is, he came in, they gave him the car, and he has done the job. This is the way i approach things. Continue to learn, and always teach.

[Alexamateo]

I think he's young and young people think they're bullet proof and race with a "win or die trying" attitude. I did. Go to any motocross track and watch the youngsters race. You'll see what I mean. They'd think nothing of centerpunching and running over their own mothers if the ol' git wandered in front of them while they were leading a moto.

I'm inclined to agree with Fiero here. Also, is racing really about reflexes here?, or is about being able to feel the car and take it out to the knife-edge and bring it back?

[jjanicke]

There are differences between races other than the obvious such as skin, hair & eye color. If I remember correctly, the average Inuit has a more spherical head. This minimizes surface area of the head (where much body heat is lost due to the large amount of blood flow to the head) which in turn helps to decrease heat loss. Also, I believe (again going on memory) that Africans have a longer femor(sp?) in relation to their height compared to other races. This may help explain their dominance in some sports. A friend of mine that studies Karate tells me Oriental people are the opposite, giving them a lower center of gravity.

I'm sure Lewis has faster reflexes than the average person, but I think it's more down to coincidence, not race. I would think all the F1 drivers have extremely fast reflexes.

I just happened to see a blurb on Discovery Channel today on Babe Ruth. Tests were done on him during his best season in the major leagues. These tests had nothing directly to do with baseball, but help explain why he was such an increadable hitter. One test was a repetative hand/eye motion test. Another was a sight/recognition test. He scored WAY above the average person. I'm sure Lewis would do similarily well.

So take the natural genetic talents, add years of training, desire, fearlessness of youth......and you've got a very rare and exceptional driver.

great post! :up:

[jjanicke]

I'm inclined to agree with Fiero here. Also, is racing really about reflexes here?, or is about being able to feel the car and take it out to the knife-edge and bring it back?


What do you think "to feel the car and take it out to the knife-edge and bring it back" is? I think you just contradicted your point!

Or perhaps you are jocking and I missed the joke ;)

[wmcot]

Actually, I have seen studies (sorry, no link) that most people of roughly the same age have about the same reaction times. What sets superior athletes apart in racing and many sports is their ability to mentally anticipate what may happen next. This makes it appear they are reacting more quickly, when in reality, they have actually worked out their response in their mind before the event happens.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm not sure if this has any relevance but this is Essendon's excitement machine. We were also doing very well against the Cats until he broke his arm and then our teams Captain James Hird pulled his calf muscle a minute later :(

http://u-tube.ws/search.php?q=Alwyn+Davey

Enjoy.

[pino]

I think he's young and young people think they're bullet proof and race with a "win or die trying" attitude.

I agree with you :up: Anyway I leave this open, but keep racism off here or it will be closed right away, with dire consequences to those who will ignore my request :)

[kalasend]

I didn't mean to attribute Hamilton's success all to genetics. In fact, genetics alone get him no where near where he is.

Let me put it this way: Say out of 100 factors of Hamilton's performance, 1 is his above-average sensitivity. That 1 factor is not that much compared with the sum of all factors. However, by leveraging circumstances that would make use of that 1 factor (and I selectively pick braking here for Hamilton), he can magnified the advantage over others. And I think this is why in the case of Hamilton, he often performs late-braking surprises.

For those who do not believe African descents (okay, politically correct here) do, on average, possess quicker reflexes, you ought to play some basketballs with them to understand. At least that's where I obtain most of my observations(from talking to many other people, not just myself).

Stripped off the cultural and political curtains, we are all biologically different, and statistics don't lie.

[Valve Bounce]

.

For those who do not believe African descents (okay, politically correct here) do, on average, possess quicker reflexes, you ought to play some basketballs with them to understand. At least that's where I obtain most of my observations.

Stripped off the cultural and political curtains, we are all biologically different, and statistics don't lie.


Like I said, check this out: http://u-tube.ws/search.php?q=Alwyn+Davey

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

I didn't mean to attribute Hamilton's success all to genetics. In fact, genetics alone get him no where near where he is.

Let me put it this way: Say out of 100 factors of Hamilton's performance, 1 is his above-average sensitivity. That 1 factor is not that much compared with the sum of all factors. However, by leveraging circumstances that would make use of that 1 factor (and I selectively pick braking here for Hamilton), he can magnified the advantage over others. And I think this is why in the case of Hamilton, he often performs late-braking surprises.

For those who do not believe African descents (okay, politically correct here) do, on average, possess quicker reflexes, you ought to play some basketballs with them to understand. At least that's where I obtain most of my observations(from talking to many other people, not just myself).

Stripped off the cultural and political curtains, we are all biologically different, and statistics don't lie.

kalasend, i went to school for medical technology, and x-ray technology.
there are some differences among the races as has been pointed out before by some on this board: but in the main, we are all the same biologically.

[ShiftingGears]

I think he's young and young people think they're bullet proof and race with a "win or die trying" attitude. I did. Go to any motocross track and watch the youngsters race. You'll see what I mean. They'd think nothing of centerpunching and running over their own mothers if the ol' git wandered in front of them while they were leading a moto.

I disagree, I think it comes more down to passion than anything else. There are many cases of older drivers still being flat out racers.

[cosmicpanda]

For those who do not believe African descents (okay, politically correct here) do, on average, possess quicker reflexes, you ought to play some basketballs with them to understand. At least that's where I obtain most of my observations(from talking to many other people, not just myself).

Stripped off the cultural and political curtains, we are all biologically different, and statistics don't lie.

But surely not all of those from African descent are superb basketball players. How do you know that those that you played had not just played for longer than you have?

[Valve Bounce]

Well, I know that the Mauries are fantastic Rugby players. The Kiwis also do a great Haka.

[leopard]

Aside of certain countries of Europe, Asian are master in playing badminton.

[pino]

Please Guys let's stick to F1, thanks :)

[Malbec]

So, according to you, why is it that all record holders in track and field, most of the best boxers, most of the best basketball players, etc., happen to have African blood? Any conspiracy theory? :)

Its quite simple and its a matter of culture and economics. In many western countries blacks tend to be poorer and therefore are more likely to go into sports than follow a conventional career pathway which requires a long expensive education. Its also a case of upbringing and culture. In America for example many blacks are brought up with basketball players as role models.

You'd have thought that if black people have such an advantage in terms of reaction times then they'd be actively sought after in motorsports too, yet Lewis Hamilton has entered F1 approximately 100 years after GP racing started and he's only half black. Again, thats a matter of economics and culture with no black role models in a sport that requires a lot of funding to get in.

[Malbec]

For those who do not believe African descents (okay, politically correct here) do, on average, possess quicker reflexes, you ought to play some basketballs with them to understand. At least that's where I obtain most of my observations(from talking to many other people, not just myself).

Except where it really counts, in the medical field, there is no difference at all in the nerve conduction rates or response times between the races....

No offence meant but I'd rather believe high power studies on a large group of people using repeatable means than a quick eyeball on the basketball court.

Also I find it interesting that you have to concentrate on the fact that Lewis is 50% black. Taking another angle I could say that his superb braking is because he's 50% white. Why? Because we've had a long string of excellent brakers in F1 and other fields of motorsport and they're almost exclusively white.

Or maybe it might filter through that his racial background simply has nothing to do with it.....

[markabilly]

Genectics or biology (combination of race and food, environment nutrition upraising and so forth) or training?

men run faster than women as a general rule because women have a hip structure that is different--clearly genectics at issue, but a few women can outrun 99.999% of men due to training and genectic variations involving the hips

Asians were always said to be smaller than westerners due to genectics, but after several generation of western food and nutrition, the later generations have very little difference in size--obviously biology from better nutrition

Clearly some African descendents have more fast twitch muscles on an average compared to others and a much higher propensity to diabetes, but no one can say that it is truly genectic or biology or training.....and we are only talking averages anyway...One would presume that someone with fast twitch muscles should excel at motor sports,,,,so what?

Take away the training, and the person will never excel no matter what they are born with

(fast twitch muscles are the speed muscles--slow twitch are endurance)

[wedge]

Something you can't measure is 'feeling' the car on the limit.

It comes from the seat of your pants, the 'signals' transmitted from the steering wheel onto your hands, understanding what the car is trying to communicate to the driver and the driver having to use the correct, precise inputs.

LH's late braking skills - I'd say some of it was nurtured in his karting days. Anyone with a good memory will remember LH was one of those karters who would flick and drift his kart round corners, that technique requires braking at the last possible moment. There was a story doing the rounds at the start of the year that LH's dad was used as a braking point so he could practice extremely late braking in karting.

Let's not forget McLaren nurtured Lewis, Ron would be on the phone making sure a 15 year old LH was down the gym 3 times a week!

[Eki]

It's strange that people may say that the black are naturally better at something and it's OK, but if somebody says that the white are naturally better at something, he's accused of racism. For example, there was this basketball movie named "White Men Can't Jump". If somebody made a movie about chess players and named it "The Whiter, the Brighter", because most top chess players are white, it would probably be banned.