A comment on the state of F1

[ArrowsFA1]

There was discussion here about Kimi's fastest lap in Turkey after that race, but I don't remember seeing a comment from Kimi himself about it, until I came across this in Autosport:

"It's so boring behind other cars...Unfortunately, in Formula 1 these days the races are pretty much decided in qualifying, so... it was something to do - I said I'd do it after qualifying. I just wanted to find out how quick the car was..."
That, more than anything else I've seen or read, speaks volumes about the current state of F1 racing, and the inability of the cars or drivers to really race.

There's been lots said about what should be done, and the FIA have a working group looking at the "problem" of overtaking, but if the drivers are bored, never mind the spectators, then it's painfully obvious that something has to be done, and quickly.

[ShiftingGears]

Yeah, its a pretty valid comment - but I don't think anyone is expecting the working group to come up with ideas that will help the racing.
I don't think Kimi will be in F1 beyond when his contract expires, I think he's a driver who is much more passionate about racing and passing on track, rather than what happens behind the scenes.

[Ian McC]

I wonder what he thought yesterday as Hamilton went by him ;)

[ioan]

I wonder what he thought yesterday as Hamilton went by him ;)

Nothing, he didn't even try to defend his position.

[F1boat]

That was a cheap shot! Kimi was in great pain and his car was visibly slower!

[555-04Q2]

There was discussion here about Kimi's fastest lap in Turkey after that race, but I don't remember seeing a comment from Kimi himself about it, until I came across this in Autosport:

That, more than anything else I've seen or read, speaks volumes about the current state of F1 racing, and the inability of the cars or drivers to really race.

There's been lots said about what should be done, and the FIA have a working group looking at the "problem" of overtaking, but if the drivers are bored, never mind the spectators, then it's painfully obvious that something has to be done, and quickly.

After being passed by LH yesterday I wonder if he still has the same opinion about overtaking :laugh:

[leopard]

Nothing, he didn't even try to defend his position.
He tried, but he can't try more than it

[Ranger]

Well sure you can still overtake for major positions... if you have a visibly faster car. Despite everyone having slowed down, the McLaren's were by far the better car of the day, and by the finish had cleared Raikkonen by 30 seconds. Hamilton would've still made it past Raikkonen eventually IMO.

Having said that, the racing today was better than much of this season.

[Flat.tyres]

Nothing, he didn't even try to defend his position.

So, why did he move off the racing line to defend the corner. Just not enough :D

Reminded me of a young Mansell that move and shows what can sometimes be done.

Yet, at the moment, it's not conducive to racing.

Get rid of driver aids, change the air boxes to non pressured and limit aero aids. Then we will see drivers sliding into corners like Lewis on Sunday.

Do people that think F1 is boring ever look at GP2? They look like race cars and race like them too. Why does F1 have to be so different?

[ioan]

He tried, but he can't try more than it

He left the door wide open, is that called trying?
But he knew there was little chance the next time they'll be coming down that long straight, and having a sore neck didn't help him either.

I still think he was the one that did the best job yesterday with what he had at disposal.

[Ian McC]

He is right though, not just the design of the cars but also the design of some of the tracks don't help. Monoco being the prime example of that.

[Ian McC]

That was a cheap shot! Kimi was in great pain and his car was visibly slower!

It was meant more as a joke as I agree with what he says :)

[ioan]

He is right though, not just the design of the cars but also the design of some of the tracks don't help. Monoco being the prime example of that.

Monaco is as good a track as any other, there was overtaking there a few years ago.

The cars are the problem, nothing else.

[ShiftingGears]

Monaco is as good a track as any other, there was overtaking there a few years ago.

The cars are the problem, nothing else.

Exactly.

[BDunnell]

Monaco is as good a track as any other, there was overtaking there a few years ago.

The cars are the problem, nothing else.

Indeed. It's worth watching Olivier Panis' drive to victory in 1996 for a demonstration of how you can pass lots of cars around Monaco.

[andreag]

I wonder what he thought yesterday as Hamilton went by him ;)


Nothing, he didn't even try to defend his position.
He just tried to follow his own advice:

in Formula 1 these days the races are pretty much decided in qualifying
As he qualified behind Lewis, he just recovered the position.

[jas123f1]

There was discussion here about Kimi's fastest lap in Turkey after that race, but I don't remember seeing a comment from Kimi himself about it, until I came across this in Autosport:

That, more than anything else I've seen or read, speaks volumes about the current state of F1 racing, and the inability of the cars or drivers to really race.

There's been lots said about what should be done, and the FIA have a working group looking at the "problem" of overtaking, but if the drivers are bored, never mind the spectators, then it's painfully obvious that something has to be done, and quickly.

It's boring - really boring – this season is the car in pole also won 9 times - if it’s going in that direction a couple of years, maybe it will be possible to skip the race and only have a Q3.

I mean FIA can make some rules which make it possible. Drivers can use whole Sunday to make business instead. Sell caps and other things.. :D

Seriously, I think it’s FIAs stupid rules which causes stupid consequences..

[SGWilko]

Indeed. It's worth watching Olivier Panis' drive to victory in 1996 for a demonstration of how you can pass lots of cars around Monaco.

In a Ligier? All the cars he passed were broken or had crashed!

[Wilderness]

Indeed. Panis' sole career victory fell into his lap due to attrition. Nothing more.

[aryan]

Indeed. Panis' sole career victory fell into his lap due to attrition. Nothing more.

Reminds me of a young British ex-Williams driver... ;-)

Seriously though, look at Truli's win in 2004, he did some good overtaking then. You CAN overtake in Monaco, or you could with previous generation of cars...

Tell me again, for the widest track on the calendar, how many overtaking moves did we have this year in Sepang?

The design of the cars are the problem, and everyone within F1 knows it.

[luvracin]

Indeed. Panis' sole career victory fell into his lap due to attrition. Nothing more.

In order to finish first, FIRST you must finish.

[Wilderness]

The point was in reagrds to passing in Monaco. Panis' win was due to attrition and not a hard fought win where passing was involved.

[jens]

Of course several cars dropped out, but Panis also made some nice overtaking moves there back in 1996 - one of the most memorable ones on Irvine. We also saw several passes in 2005 (largely due to the tyre rule though) and 2006 at Monaco. But at the moment the rev-limiter has reduced the amount of overtakings significantly. Of course it's still possible to overtake (like we also saw yesterday), but it's harder than ever before.

[Wilderness]

If memorable means punting Irvine out of the way, sure that was memorable...

[Hondo]

Before the great American Split, I was very much a CART-F1 fan. In a lot of ways and for a lot of reasons, I considered the CART series to actually be a better competion for Championship Driver. There were no electronic aids on the cars, the drivers still had to shift and find their own traction, and they raced on three types of tracks over the course of a season. For me, F1 was the technology jewel and required different driver attitudes and skills.

Having said all of that, I think what F1 is doing now is nothing more than an admission that CART had it right to start with and was begining to make Bernie nervous before the split. The people that wail and scream about how expensive F1 has become are the very same people that made it that way. The high tech, high cost components (carbon disc brakes, etc) were fun when only a few had them and reaped an advantage off of them but now everyone has them and they are an expense. There is nothing to keep these guys from getting together and agreeing to use cheaper materials in a lot of areas, i.e., aluminum, steel, and fiberglas. Set the engine size to 3.0 liters and let it go. Single cylinder, fine, v-twin, fine, v-4,6,8,10,12,32...fine, turbo, ok, supercharger, ok. Give them a base displacement, and let them go play.

It would seem that passing is possible when a driver wants to bad enough. It is more risky now and requires different methods but it is still done by the best out there. I think too many drivers and press people are caught up in the legend of "impossible to pass" so it is not tried nor expected. We have all seen top drivers having to start from the back carve their way through the field in relatively short order. All theses teams crying about the cost of F1 have now built or are building their own wind tunnels and development centers. If passing is desired, go back to your roots and use technology to solve your problems. A return to slick tires would greatly enhance mechanical grip and I would think allowing teams to develop and use moveable areodynamic devices would go a long way towards dealing with the dirty air problems. I don't care what kind of technology you develop, short of driving the car from the pits, R/C, a monkey is never going to win driving a high tech F1 racing machine.

While we're at it, make them race on pump gas. That will save them some money.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

Before the great American Split, I was very much a CART-F1 fan. In a lot of ways and for a lot of reasons, I considered the CART series to actually be a better competion for Championship Driver. There were no electronic aids on the cars, the drivers still had to shift and find their own traction, and they raced on three types of tracks over the course of a season. For me, F1 was the technology jewel and required different driver attitudes and skills.


It would seem that passing is possible when a driver wants to bad enough. It is more risky now and requires different methods but it is still done by the best out there. I think too many drivers and press people are caught up in the legend of "impossible to pass" so it is not tried nor expected. We have all seen top drivers having to start from the back carve their way through the field in relatively short order. All theses teams crying about the cost of F1 have now built or are building their own wind tunnels and development centers. If passing is desired, go back to your roots and use technology to solve your problems. A return to slick tires would greatly enhance mechanical grip and I would think allowing teams to develop and use moveable areodynamic devices would go a long way towards dealing with the dirty air problems. I don't care what kind of technology you develop, short of driving the car from the pits, R/C, a monkey is never going to win driving a high tech F1 racing machine.

While we're at it, make them race on pump gas. That will save them some money.

passing is still possible. the amazing thing from my perspective is, when fans complain about who is doing the passing and, who is getting passed.
however, i agree that something should be done to increase the cars ability to overtake, then let the drivers go for it.
what was it that senna said about passing?

[ioan]

If memorable means punting Irvine out of the way, sure that was memorable...

Exactly my thoughts! :up:
He just pushed EI out at the hairpin, I can still remember it like if it was yesterday.

[Osella]

While we're at it, make them race on pump gas. That will save them some money.

I agree with just about everyting you said, except this; they do actually run on pretty standard fuel (which was a rule introduced about 14 years ago if memory serves correct), but I think actually, as has been mooted in a few places, they should run on bio-ethanol or similar. Might help the environment a bit more than painting the cars green and blue...

[Hondo]

passing is still possible. the amazing thing from my perspective is, when fans complain about who is doing the passing and, who is getting passed.
however, i agree that something should be done to increase the cars ability to overtake, then let the drivers go for it.
what was it that senna said about passing?

We know passing is possible, we see at least one every race. A lot of these guys are comfortable where they are and won't take the risk that passing has become. Thats another reason I say get rid of some of these older drivers that are caught up in the legend and bring in some more rookies. Rookies love to try to pass and sometimes get away with it.

[Osella]

Exactly my thoughts! :up:
He just pushed EI out at the hairpin, I can still remember it like if it was yesterday.


It was a brilliant race, from his grid position Panis did very very well to climb through the field and was on for a good result even without the retirements. Kind of a shame though that although I would consider this one of the classic F1 races of all time ( no joke!), it was largely due to rain, as seems to be the rule these days in order to have a memorable race.....

[Mikeall]

If memorable means punting Irvine out of the way, sure that was memorable...

I remember it well but I think Irvine may have been able to avoid it or prevent it happening.

[Mikeall]

The 1996 Monaco Grand Prix was a classic, a true endurance race (they even reached the time limit). Monaco does have boring races but its so unique that the unpredictable can happen and make the most amazing Grand Prix that imprint on your mind forever.

[tinchote]

There's been lots said about what should be done, and the FIA have a working group looking at the "problem" of overtaking, but if the drivers are bored, never mind the spectators, then it's painfully obvious that something has to be done, and quickly.

Indeed. Personally, after all these years I'm not bothering to wake up anymore. I noticed that something was really really wrong when I found myself flipping channels during a race :s

[wmcot]

I tend to find myself watching American LeMans racing more now. At least you have 4 races going on at once and can focus on any one if the others become boring. It also adds quite a bit to strategy and skill when you have high speed prototypes negotiating the same track as lower speed GT cars. The drivers are more fan-friendly and less "elite."

F1 is still OK, but it's not my #1 passion anymore. When there is only a fraction of a second per lap difference between the top 4 or 6 cars, you aren't going to see a lot of passing. Even if you're 1 or 2 tenths faster per lap than the car in front, that hardly means that you'll be able to go flying by him on a long straight.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

the thing about f1 is once you're hooked, you're hooked.
i admit that for many years i was only able to watch on and off, largely due to circumstances beyond my control. i have never been able to give it up: i always find a back.

[wmcot]

Don't get me wrong, I'll still watch F1, but in the past when F1 was shown here in the US on tape delay and ALMS was on at the same time, I'd tape the ALMS race and watch F1. Now I'd probably do it the other way around.

[ioan]

I remember it well but I think Irvine may have been able to avoid it or prevent it happening.

Don't know how as he Panis run into his back while he was taking the hairpin and made him spun.

[BeansBeansBeans]

the thing about f1 is once you're hooked, you're hooked.

That's it.

It doesn't matter how bad things get. As long as they continue to hold F1 races, I'll be watching them.

[BDunnell]

The point was in reagrds to passing in Monaco. Panis' win was due to attrition and not a hard fought win where passing was involved.

Sorry to bring this specific point up again, but have you actually ever watched that race? He carries out a lot of overtakes.

[BDunnell]

If memorable means punting Irvine out of the way, sure that was memorable...

And I don't think that going into a gap down the inside of someone who then doesn't get out of the way is merely punting someone off.

Point is that you can pass at Monaco.

[F1MAN2007]

Nothing, he didn't even try to defend his position.


He didn't try to defend his position because he knew already how quick is his car. :D

[F1MAN2007]

...The cars are the problem, nothing else.

I thought drivers are there also to help engineers to develop the cars?! :rolleyes:
Let's say Cars, engineers and drivers were a problem! :D

[ioan]

I thought drivers are there also to help engineers to develop the cars?! :rolleyes:
Let's say Cars, engineers and drivers were a problem! :D

I'll be as clear as possible for you:

The cars are the problem because of the rules who pushed the development into a direction where aerodynamicaly generated downforce is what cars mainly rely on.

Thus the problem lies within the regulations that define the cars!

Hope it was clear enough. :rolleyes:

[F1MAN2007]

I'll be as clear as possible for you:

The cars are the problem because of the rules who pushed the development into a direction where aerodynamicaly generated downforce is what cars mainly rely on.

Thus the problem lies within the regulations that define the cars!

Hope it was clear enough. :rolleyes:

So why some teams get it right and others not? With my poor english, if the regulations is the problem, then all the team should be almost on the same pace?

[markabilly]

the problem is : is it about who can drive the fastest or who can make the fastest car

Tech has grown to the point that the latter dominates over the former--and this "push the button to pass" of CART is just another example of tech rather than skill....

[ioan]

So why some teams get it right and others not? With my poor english, if the regulations is the problem, then all the team should be almost on the same pace?

Some do get it right?!

I think that you should start the thread from the beginning and read it carefully. I do think, maybe I'm mistaken, that Arrows started this thread to point out the fact that F1 is lacking overtaking possibilities and thus lacking real racing.
And really no one is getting it right at the moment because of the stupid regulations!

[F1MAN2007]

Some do get it right?!!

Lewis made an audacious pass on Kimi Raikkonen in Monza where some people think it is difficult to pass.

Ferando made a spectacular pass on Massa in Hungrian where some people think it is almost impossible to overtake.

This without quoting other drivers wo did well in Monza or elsewhere.


......And really no one is getting it right at the moment because of the stupid regulations!

I agree totally with you on the stupid regulations by the FIA.

[jens]

Don't know how as he Panis run into his back while he was taking the hairpin and made him spun.

Panis was almost alongside Irvine - that is something you can hardly call "running into the back"!

[Hondo]

Put a 4 inch wide bumper around the car and tires like a rental go kart and let them push each other out of the way.

[wmcot]

Put a 4 inch wide bumper around the car and tires like a rental go kart and let them push each other out of the way.

Now THAT I would watch!!!!

[555-04Q2]

Put a 4 inch wide bumper around the car and tires like a rental go kart and let them push each other out of the way.

:( Then all it becomes is NASCAR :( :(

[ShiftingGears]

:( Then all it becomes is NASCAR :( :(

Exactly. What I like about OW racing is in theory there are a lot more clean passes.


However what NASCAR has got right is restricting the amount of technology that takes away from the racing.

[wmcot]

Exactly. What I like about OW racing is in theory there are a lot more clean passes.


However what NASCAR has got right is restricting the amount of technology that takes away from the racing.

Don't they also restrict the average intelligence of drivers and fans??? ;)

[ShiftingGears]

Don't they also restrict the average intelligence of drivers and fans??? ;)

Perhaps...

I'm not considering introducing bogus debris cautions though, so its ok ;)

[markabilly]

We know passing is possible, we see at least one every race. ........ Rookies love to try to pass and sometimes get away with it.
Wow one a race....i guess you mean on the track as opposed to the usual pit pass.....

There was a time when the master of the high speeed corners was the ruler...then wings came along and the faster the corner, the better the grip....problem for many F1 drivers (such as Rossi who tried the switch) is not the fast corners but the slow ones....

Always interesting to see who is a master in the wet, where the ability to drive still dominates.......

The only real answer is not more tech, but less tech and elimination of areo devices (please the pass button....gee that is real skill..let me see: time to pass car in front, oh please lord, let me push the right button at right time...........whatever.........

[N. Jones]

Since this post is about the "State of F1" my take is this:

It's obvious that power and having the means to control everything are far more important than entertaining the fans. How else does one explain the controversies surrounding what most around the world agrees to being the best season on track in years. I get the feeling that every time the entertainment factor of F1 goes up there is an equal amount of controversy that inevitably dampens everyone's enthusiasm.

[ShiftingGears]

Since this post is about the "State of F1" my take is this:

It's obvious that power and having the means to control everything are far more important than entertaining the fans. How else does one explain the controversies surrounding what most around the world agrees to being the best season on track in years. I get the feeling that every time the entertainment factor of F1 goes up there is an equal amount of controversy that inevitably dampens everyone's enthusiasm.

Actually I think that its the best season in years in terms of championship standings.
The on-track action has been fairly...non-existant. Bar the starts of grands prix, theres been one on-track pass for the lead, and that was in changeable conditions. It's not good enough.

[Ian McC]

Since this post is about the "State of F1" my take is this:

It's obvious that power and having the means to control everything are far more important than entertaining the fans. How else does one explain the controversies surrounding what most around the world agrees to being the best season on track in years. I get the feeling that every time the entertainment factor of F1 goes up there is an equal amount of controversy that inevitably dampens everyone's enthusiasm.

:up:

It's a catch 22 situation. To allow overtaking you need to place restrictions on some aspects of the car and restrict the technology. If you make these restrictions then it is no longer really F1.

[wedge]

Actually I think that its the best season in years in terms of championship standings.
The on-track action has been fairly...non-existant. Bar the starts of grands prix, theres been one on-track pass for the lead, and that was in changeable conditions. It's not good enough.

Either you have a short memory or we've been watching different races - there some people who enjoyed Malaysia (me included) and there were some people who thought that race was boring.

We've had some good races and some bad. Turkey (surprisingly) and Barcelona (no surprises) were the bad. Bahrain and Indy were easily the best races of the year.

I agree with your stance on lead changes and on-track passing though.

[N. Jones]

Yes, I agree that lead changes and passing is not up to par; but that isn't why people are talking about this season, is it? It's because we have a four-way battle for the championship and the surprise run of one Lewis Hamilton (plus all of the side-stories that surround both of these events).

[gloomyDAY]

This "sport" is absolutely vile.

Why in the hell should I watch another F1 race again?

[Mikeall]

I hope the commies get you before I do ;)

[fandango]

:up:

It's a catch 22 situation. To allow overtaking you need to place restrictions on some aspects of the car and restrict the technology. If you make these restrictions then it is no longer really F1.

Visiting my in-laws last weekend, at one point I escaped and thought to retire to a local drinking salon, first stopping off at the kiosk to pick up some reading material, whereupon I purchased Grand Prix International (moment of nostalgia, remembering the first ever time I bought this mag, the "Farewell Gilles..." edition) Anyway, before I get carted off to the F1-in-the-past forum, let me make this point:

There was an article about "dirty air", the turbulence left in the wake of a modern F1 car. We've all heard about it when it comes to "why I couldn't overtake" press releases. The article describes how an F1 car has this or that times more turbulence in its wake than a standard road car due to open wheels etc. The thing is, though, this dirty air can be measured. So, why don't the FIA just simply make a rule which says "the rate of turbulence 3 metres behind a car at 80kmh must not exceed x ", and test all the cars the same way they crash test them?

This would mean all the Adrien Neweys would have to design cars that not only are aerodynamically efficient, but don't spoil the air for the following cars. It doesn't reduce technology, but actually introduces a new field for the egg-heads to excell at, while quite possibly increasing overtaking. (On the downside, it may only change the excuse on the press release).....

Does anyone think this is possible?

[ioan]

Anyway, before I get carted off to the F1-in-the-past forum, let me make this point:

There was an article about "dirty air", the turbulence left in the wake of a modern F1 car. We've all heard about it when it comes to "why I couldn't overtake" press releases. The article describes how an F1 car has this or that times more turbulence in its wake than a standard road car due to open wheels etc. The thing is, though, this dirty air can be measured. So, why don't the FIA just simply make a rule which says "the rate of turbulence 3 metres behind a car at 80kmh must not exceed x ", and test all the cars the same way they crash test them?

This would mean all the Adrien Neweys would have to design cars that not only are aerodynamically efficient, but don't spoil the air for the following cars. It doesn't reduce technology, but actually introduces a new field for the egg-heads to excell at, while quite possibly increasing overtaking. (On the downside, it may only change the excuse on the press release).....

Does anyone think this is possible?

It is possible, the problem is that McLarent won't have the $100,000,000 required to cover the costs for this new form of self inflicted punishment! :D

[janneppi]

There was an article about "dirty air", the turbulence left in the wake of a modern F1 car. We've all heard about it when it comes to "why I couldn't overtake" press releases. The article describes how an F1 car has this or that times more turbulence in its wake than a standard road car due to open wheels etc. The thing is, though, this dirty air can be measured. So, why don't the FIA just simply make a rule which says "the rate of turbulence 3 metres behind a car at 80kmh must not exceed x ", and test all the cars the same way they crash test them?

This would mean all the Adrien Neweys would have to design cars that not only are aerodynamically efficient, but don't spoil the air for the following cars. It doesn't reduce technology, but actually introduces a new field for the egg-heads to excell at, while quite possibly increasing overtaking. (On the downside, it may only change the excuse on the press release).....

Does anyone think this is possible?
I've suggested that before, but Valve said something about it which didn't endorse the idea so it wasn't discussed any further. :)

[Daniel]

Visiting my in-laws last weekend, at one point I escaped and thought to retire to a local drinking salon, first stopping off at the kiosk to pick up some reading material, whereupon I purchased Grand Prix International (moment of nostalgia, remembering the first ever time I bought this mag, the "Farewell Gilles..." edition) Anyway, before I get carted off to the F1-in-the-past forum, let me make this point:

There was an article about "dirty air", the turbulence left in the wake of a modern F1 car. We've all heard about it when it comes to "why I couldn't overtake" press releases. The article describes how an F1 car has this or that times more turbulence in its wake than a standard road car due to open wheels etc. The thing is, though, this dirty air can be measured. So, why don't the FIA just simply make a rule which says "the rate of turbulence 3 metres behind a car at 80kmh must not exceed x ", and test all the cars the same way they crash test them?

This would mean all the Adrien Neweys would have to design cars that not only are aerodynamically efficient, but don't spoil the air for the following cars. It doesn't reduce technology, but actually introduces a new field for the egg-heads to excell at, while quite possibly increasing overtaking. (On the downside, it may only change the excuse on the press release).....

Does anyone think this is possible?
Why not put fairings over the wheels? If it helps overtaking then.............

[wedge]

The thing is, though, this dirty air can be measured. So, why don't the FIA just simply make a rule which says "the rate of turbulence 3 metres behind a car at 80kmh must not exceed x ", and test all the cars the same way they crash test them?

This would mean all the Adrien Neweys would have to design cars that not only are aerodynamically efficient, but don't spoil the air for the following cars. It doesn't reduce technology, but actually introduces a new field for the egg-heads to excell at, while quite possibly increasing overtaking. (On the downside, it may only change the excuse on the press release).....

Does anyone think this is possible?

Aero is the final straw in terms of innovation and every week the teams are constantly developing aero parts that will affect the wake.

I don't know how you could police it. Stick a wind tunnel at every GP venue? Have the FIA snooping in the team's wind tunnels?

[fandango]

Why not put fairings over the wheels? If it helps overtaking then.............


It's not a question of making a ruling to do anything specific, but rather of making a rule to limit "dirty" air, and then leaving it to the ingenuity of the teams to figure out the hows and whys. In a few seasons all the cars would look similar to each other again, but we'd still hopefully see overtaking, as the critical moments of closing on another car are not spoiled by bad aerodynamics.

The question is, I suppose, can such a thing be objectively and fairly measured? Can you do a back-to-back test and say car X leaves clean air in its wake, but car y is out by point zero zero whatever?

[ArrowsFA1]

"I can't quite imagine what Jochen Rindt would have made of 'fuel burning' laps, can you? Now, tyre burning laps, that would have been a different matter..." :s mokin:

[ioan]

Make them race the car with the same aero for the whole season, the amount of dirty air in the wake of the car should not exceed the standard imposed by the FIA in any possible setup configuration.
This will also put an end to the expensive development race during season.
Let's see who can come up with the best design at the beginning of the season.
Small teams will have a fairer chance than they have now when they can't financially sustain such a development rate during the season. Often teams like Williams and Super Aguri are sliding back on the standings even though they had good cars at the start of the season.

[Osella]

I have always thought that there should be more diversity between the cars, that is what leads to overtaking and exciting races.

Look at the 60's and early 70's, the cars were almost all identikit tubes with DFV's bolted on, and the racing was nonexistent in most cases except for Monza. If you actually look at the results (bearing in mind there were only 12-15 cars at a lot of those races too) there are huge gaps between the cars on the racetrack and very little overtaking of note.

However, move on to the 80's and 90's and yes it all revolves around pitstops but there is a lot more interest, Could Prost on hard tyres make it through the race without stopping or could Senna stop but still beat him? And if only Mansell hadn't been held up by Piquet and Gugelmin qualifying on the second row on super-soft tyres.... THIS was real entertainment, as it was through the mid 90's with refuelling (don't kid youself that there weren't at least as many races from '83 onwards which weren't all about pitstops and strategy!).

The thing which introduced interest was the diversity of the cars, likewise Jarama '81, Villeneuve was driving a truck with a great engine, bad in the corners, good on the straights. I think we almost need two rulebooks, one a low downforce setup with a big fuel capacity, and one a high downforce setup with low fuel.

Then we will see if drivers can get the fast car to last and make quick pitstops, or whether drivers can make a skittish heavy car run quick enough without stops to win..

Some teams wouldn't stand a chance at Monza, but would dominate Monaco etc.. just like it used to be. Oh, and no safety cars, just red-flag the damn thing if there's that much of an accident, then we don't get unintelligable pit rules or 6-car fields left .

[oily oaf]

Here's a comment for ya boys.
Give 'em a foot clutch and gear shift lever, lose the TC and all the bells and whistles, stick a set of slicks on 'em fuel 'em till the end of the race then sit back and enjoy.
Until then Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz FACT!

[Daniel]

Here's a comment for ya boys.
Give 'em a foot clutch and gear shift lever, lose the TC and all the bells and whistles, stick a set of slicks on 'em fuel 'em till the end of the race then sit back and enjoy.
Until then Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz FACT!
I agree but with one difference :D Chain Fernando and Pedro together naked and drop them off in Modena, Maranello or Monza. Justice will be done :)

[airshifter]

I have always loved the technology of F1, but for the sake of the sport, they must create limits on some aspects of it. Done properly they can remove or lessen other restrictions and make it more of a show to watch.

Limit the dirty air, along with allowing CDG wings and such. Bring full slicks back in to create more mechanical grip so aero doesn't play such a huge role in handling.

Get rid of all traction control, but allow larger and/or differing engine configurations.

Raise the weight minimums in line with engine changes, so that they can make the cars stronger and hopefully reduce the rate at which these fragile cars destroy themselves.

I'm sure there are a lot more angles, but without more action F1 is doomed to fail.

[Tazio]

This "sport" is absolutely vile.

Why in the hell should I watch another F1 race again?

Dude,
What is up with your screen name?
According to your profile you live about 120 miles up I-5 from me in the last great bastion of ultraconservatism in California known as Orange County! The 1950's happened a long time ago!
I think you should realize that most of the members of this forum live in countries that either have legitimate communist in political office, or at least strong socialist’s representation. I'm sure that many of our European, and to a lesser degree Canadian members that are upwardly mobile do not appreciate the tax structure that accompanies strong social programs, but professing a desire to kill Communist is uncivil and plainly a socially unacceptable position around these parts!

[tinchote]

I have always thought that there should be more diversity between the cars, that is what leads to overtaking and exciting races.

Look at the 60's and early 70's, the cars were almost all identikit tubes with DFV's bolted on, and the racing was nonexistent in most cases except for Monza. If you actually look at the results (bearing in mind there were only 12-15 cars at a lot of those races too) there are huge gaps between the cars on the racetrack and very little overtaking of note.

However, move on to the 80's and 90's and yes it all revolves around pitstops but there is a lot more interest, Could Prost on hard tyres make it through the race without stopping or could Senna stop but still beat him? And if only Mansell hadn't been held up by Piquet and Gugelmin qualifying on the second row on super-soft tyres.... THIS was real entertainment, as it was through the mid 90's with refuelling (don't kid youself that there weren't at least as many races from '83 onwards which weren't all about pitstops and strategy!).

The thing which introduced interest was the diversity of the cars, likewise Jarama '81, Villeneuve was driving a truck with a great engine, bad in the corners, good on the straights. I think we almost need two rulebooks, one a low downforce setup with a big fuel capacity, and one a high downforce setup with low fuel.

Then we will see if drivers can get the fast car to last and make quick pitstops, or whether drivers can make a skittish heavy car run quick enough without stops to win..

Some teams wouldn't stand a chance at Monza, but would dominate Monaco etc.. just like it used to be. Oh, and no safety cars, just red-flag the damn thing if there's that much of an accident, then we don't get unintelligable pit rules or 6-car fields left .


:up: