Was not Lewis quite dirty at the start!?

[Kevincal]

Jeez I'm surprised I haven't seen any posts about it... Ok, that was flat out dirty nearly pushing Massa into the grass on the front stretch at the start. Then he proceeds to cut the chicane without penalty. He said post race that he outbraked Alonso and Massa going into turn 1....um...lol...More like you braked way too late and then tried to force yourself onto Massa's line in which you luckily only banged tires and even more luckily didn't damage your car whereas Massa's was damaged...

[pino]

None complained about it so that probably was ok, but for sure it wasn't a great start :s

[ShiftingGears]

It was a little messy when he banged wheels with Massa, but thats racing. The pass on Raikkonen was exceptional. Bit of a pity the cameras only focused on it just after he made the pass.

[555-04Q2]

It was great stuff from LH. He is a commited racer who doesnt give an inch. He squeezed Massa but left him a car width of space. Nothing wrong with that!

[leopard]

I saw it slightly dirty as the way he overtook Kimi, what maneuver he has made going into someone else's racing line, but probably it was his fashion, poor Massa :(

[ArrowsFA1]

He said post race that he outbraked Alonso and Massa going into turn 1....um...lol...
Hamilton is exceptionally skilled on the brakes as he showed with his pass of Raikkonen and turn 1, lap 1 was another example. Massa followed Alonso on the inside of the corner and LH simply outbraked them around the outside. Nothing wrong with that move. The only reason he had to take to the chicane was because Massa's front hit LH's rear tyre.

Hamilton's move to the left at the start was hard but fair because he left Massa just enough room. It reminded me of Jones/Villeneuve at Monaco in 1981.

We complain there's no passing in F1, and when a driver comes along who makes passes he is criticised :dozey:

Credit to Button and Rosberg who also both showed that passing, and racing, is still possible :up:

[leopard]

I didn't, I like more beautiful passing as the part of strategical effort than such hard overtaking may endanger someone else. And purportedly, without TC we may see more overtaking harder than it. :dozey: :)

[Ranger]

I'm still a little iffy about cars using runoff areas at chicanes as a means of gaining an advantage (or minimizing disadvantage), as a car ahead but offline at a chicane can cut the chicane over the bumpy plastic and then, by means of blocking, still maintain that advantage going into the next turn.

So as far as his lap one effort goes, I thought it was a tad poor... similarly was the case with Alonso in Monaco '05 and Schumacher in Hungary '06, although this time it was never eventually rectified.

[Dave B]

Hamilton's opening lap move(s) on Massa were just about inside the limit of what I'd consider fair, and any driver who can maximise the rules to their advantage is fine by me :up:

[ioan]

Jeez I'm surprised I haven't seen any posts about it... Ok, that was flat out dirty nearly pushing Massa into the grass on the front stretch at the start. Then he proceeds to cut the chicane without penalty. He said post race that he outbraked Alonso and Massa going into turn 1....um...lol...More like you braked way too late and then tried to force yourself onto Massa's line in which you luckily only banged tires and even more luckily didn't damage your car whereas Massa's was damaged...

Come on, he can't do anything wrong! ;)

Not like he didn't do more than one defensive moves a few times during that first lap when Felipe tried to go by again.

On the other hand Felipe forgot how to race again, like in Sepang. Should he have been a bit more aggressive, like in Spain, he would have been and stayed ahead easily.

I was wondering what would have Hamy's thoughts after that chicane if it was MS driving the red car?! Something along these lines: "Sh!t, these bumps on the inside of the chicane can do no good!" :D

But Kimi didn't put up to much fight either. :(

[Ian McC]

People complain that there is no overtaking and then they complain when there is, I guess you just can't please some people.

[F1boat]

Yeah, he chopped turn 2, but of course, was not penalised. If it was Shumacher, there would have been enormous cry of outrage...

[Viktory]

Yeah, he chopped turn 2, but of course, was not penalised. If it was Shumacher, there would have been enormous cry of outrage...

definitely.

[555-04Q2]

Actually guys, LH and FM touched which is why LH landed up "cutting" turn 2. Give the guy a break, at least he provided us with some actual passing for a change :up:

[BTCC Fan#1]

If it was Shumacher, there would have been enormous cry of outrage...
If it was Schumacher then Massa would've been on the grass off the start..

Hamilton left him a cars width up the inside, and probably would've made the chicane had Massa not tapped him. He didn't gain an advantage from it so fairs fair in my book.

[Trqster]

Don't people like to see hard racing and overtaking manouevres?

[Sleeper]

I hae absolutely no problem with his start, very hard but definitely fair, and he was overtaken even if for just 100 meters. I'm not so sure about his defensive driving from Curve Grande to the Lesmos but the cameras seemed to be following Alonso more than th Massa/Hamilton battle.

[Flat.tyres]

If it was Schumacher then Massa would've been on the grass off the start..

Hamilton left him a cars width up the inside, and probably would've made the chicane had Massa not tapped him. He didn't gain an advantage from it so fairs fair in my book.

Thats exactly how I saw it.

Great braking into the first corner, had the racing position from Massa, got a tap from the Ferrari that forced him to cut the chicane slightly and maintained his position with some great racing. That's what I like seeing.

Would love to have a clip on here to prove it.

[dime3]

I think it was a hard but fair start. Most would call it racing.

He left enough room, just about, but it was risky considering where the race was and who Mclaren are batting heads with at the moment!

[MAX_THRUST]

Haven't read anyone else responses, so appologies if I am repeating someone else comments....

WHAT!!!????

If it had been M Schumacher doing the swerving then Massa or who ever would be in the wall. Yes he swerved but it lost him the position,,,,whats the problem. Massa drove into Lewis right rear tyre, if he'd hit Lewis front tyre then fair enough,

some people shouldn't be aloud on forums if they know nothing about racing. It was racing and it was good racing, what did it matter anyway, Massa did not touch the grass and his car broke down anyway, not from a silly little knock...........

[markabilly]

Pass on KR was classic block pass---Brake very late and slam on brakes through the apex---your car blocks the other and while going very slow at the apex, if timed just right, it blocks the other car--in a chicane, it is very difficult for the other car to get around and use its speed to out manuver on the exit.

On a simple corner, the passed car can take a better line and cut underneath and power around

KR could have done an ms and slammed into the side, per the MS JV smackdown of 97 but that was all.

The pass on Masa---LH was going way too fast to make the second part of the chicane and was going off, contact or not---why? The contact did not materially change the direction of LH's car as it was already headed off track with such speed that LH almost passed on FA, (indeed he was along side of FA)

Masa's contact made no difference and LH should have been put behind Massa--actually it did make a difference: the stewards saw it as an excuse to NOT do anything, when they should have!!!

Although since Massa was going to break shortly thereafter...it would not have matterred......

As to the start, dirty---Massa nearly had a wheel in dirt and the potential for the two to slam together at speed was just inches away....

[Ian McC]

Don't people like to see hard racing and overtaking manouevres?

Depends on which driver you support ;)

Hamiltons was fine hard gutsy racing and fair play to him.

If M Schumacher had done it then it would have been exactly the same.

[ottostreet]

actually, if you watch the replay onboard with massa at the first chicane, lewis is on the left attempting to turn into the first part with massa alongside, lewis's right rear comes in contact with massa left front (which i view as lewis's fault, since massa is obviously going to be there. the tap actually swings lewis's car INTO the corner, not away, yet lewis still has to cut the second part of the chicane. IMO, lewis was NEVER going to be able to stay ont he road at the first corner.

[Flat.tyres]

Pass on KR was classic block pass---Brake very late and slam on brakes through the apex---your car blocks the other and while going very slow at the apex, if timed just right, it blocks the other car--in a chicane, it is very difficult for the other car to get around and use its speed to out manuver on the exit.

On a simple corner, the passed car can take a better line and cut underneath and power around

KR could have done an ms and slammed into the side, per the MS JV smackdown of 97 but that was all.

The pass on Masa---LH was going way too fast to make the second part of the chicane and was going off, contact or not---why? The contact did not materially change the direction of LH's car as it was already headed off track with such speed that LH almost passed on FA, (indeed he was along side of FA)

Masa's contact made no difference and LH should have been put behind Massa--actually it did make a difference: the stewards saw it as an excuse to NOT do anything, when they should have!!!

Although since Massa was going to break shortly thereafter...it would not have matterred......

As to the start, dirty---Massa nearly had a wheel in dirt and the potential for the two to slam together at speed was just inches away....

Now, because this is the leaner, greener, cleaner Flat-tyres, I'm not going to write what I really want ;)

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=343586&postcount=5

Others do it so much better :D

Classic block pass you say. Stuff it up the inside, brake like a demon, crank it sideways into the corner and drift the bitch out. Superb racing that all fans should enjoy.

As for the start, you said that it was dirty because Massa nearly had his wheels on the dirt. Correct, but he was a foot away and there was no contact. That's called racing room and is correct hard driving. If you don't like it, I cant see why you enjoy motoracing at all :confused:

In the first corner, again another ballsy move around the outside and a slight touch from Massa ment a slight cut of the chicane. No penalty because it was Massa's mistake that caused the incident. Argue it with the FIA.

[Trqster]

Any available vids on the start? I couldn't fin any yet at youtube...

[Daniel]

LH was never going to make the chicane. He just tapped Massa so he had an excuse. There's a racing line for that chicane and he wasn't on it. The Scueyesque chop was a bit dirty but fair enough as Massa had space but the first corner move was so wrong it wasn't funny. But of course he's golden boy so he got away with it :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

LH was never going to make the chicane. He just tapped Massa so he had an excuse.

Yeah, of course he did :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Yeah, of course he did :rolleyes:
He was never going to make it around the corner. Show me anywhere else in the race anyone else use that line........

[SGWilko]

He was never going to make it around the corner. Show me anywhere else in the race anyone else use that line........

You only have one standing start in a race (save for red flag situation), so that is why you did not see that move again.

I thought it was inspired, instinctive racing. Interesting also how Massa did not have an issue with it. Firm but fair in my book. You don't become a world champion by bending over and 'taking it up the tailpipe' :D

[Daniel]

Yes but it's still not a line for a chicane. He might have made it around the first part of the chicane but he was never going to make it around properly without either taking Alonso out or flying understeering off to the right when he tried to go left. Sure he was good on the brakes on new soft tyres when Kimi was on worn hards but he's not good enough to defy the laws of physics :)

[ioan]

Haven't read anyone else responses, so appologies if I am repeating someone else comments....

WHAT!!!????

If it had been M Schumacher doing the swerving then Massa or who ever would be in the wall. Yes he swerved but it lost him the position,,,,whats the problem. Massa drove into Lewis right rear tyre, if he'd hit Lewis front tyre then fair enough,

some people shouldn't be aloud on forums if they know nothing about racing. It was racing and it was good racing, what did it matter anyway, Massa did not touch the grass and his car broke down anyway, not from a silly little knock...........

Since when MS should drive a McLaren? :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Yeah, of course he did :rolleyes:

Well there are a few millions of people who have seen it on TV, so... :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Sure he was good on the brakes on new soft tyres when Kimi was on worn hards but he's not good enough to defy the laws of physics :)

Don't be so sure, Bernie and Ron's "Golden Boy" can do whatever he wants! :D ;)

[Roamy]

good stuff hopfully some good punting in on the way finally. Since Montoya an Vil left it has been too boring.

[Flat.tyres]

Well there are a few millions of people who have seen it on TV, so... :rolleyes:

Now, comon ioan.

How can anyone hit another competitor when he's in front trying to go around the corner and the car behind nudges him.

Lets just be a bit realistic about it shall we :rolleyes:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

He was never going to make it around the corner. Show me anywhere else in the race anyone else use that line........

Button and Rosberg?

[Daniel]

Button and Rosberg?
Have you got a link to some video?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

This image is before he gets the tap. If you look behind, Kimi and Nick manage to get around turn 1 side by side because they didn't touch


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44105000/jpg/_44105536_start416.jpg

[Garry Walker]

LH has pulled some stunts this year on the track, that if it had been MS doing those, that there would be quite many members here jerking themselves into frenzy from hate-speech towards him. Cheater! Jerk! Punter! I can imagine those being the words describing him. But funnily, no attacks on him, evne from those who thought MS was such a dangerous driver :rotflmao:

I for one support the way LH fights for his position, I would do the same if I was anywhere nearly as talented as him in driving a race car :D

The move LH pulled on Kimi depended totally on Kimi giving way, otherwise they would have crashed for sure. Very similar to Schumacher VS Villeneuve at Jerez actaully. Except MS did the right thing and didnt give way.

[Ian McC]

But of course he's golden boy so he got away with it :)


So the stewards looked at it and decided because it was Hamilton that he should get away with it? That is quite clearly a load of cobblers :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

This image is before he gets the tap. If you look behind, Kimi and Nick manage to get around turn 1 side by side because they didn't touch


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44105000/jpg/_44105536_start416.jpg
And if Alonso had taken the racing line and Hamilton had gone through the chicane where was Hamilton heading? Into Alonso......

[markabilly]

This image is before he gets the tap. If you look behind, Kimi and Nick manage to get around turn 1 side by side because they didn't touch


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44105000/jpg/_44105536_start416.jpg

It fails to show how much faster LH was going at that point, much faster than FA, Massa, KR and the rest of the field, and he was still clearly trying to slow down...so he is now going to smack FA if he comes close to the apex at the second point.....

[Daniel]

It fails to show how much faster LH was going at that point, much faster than FA, Massa, KR and the rest of the field, and he was still clearly trying to slow down...so he is now going to smack FA if he comes close to the apex at the second point.....
So basically he was outbraking himself.

[Flat.tyres]

So basically he was outbraking himself.

Link Please!!!

What we have is LH approaching the corner, LH getting a nudge from FM and LH cutting a part of the chicane.

So, please tell me what evidence you and Mark have that the FIA officials didn't have in making their decisions. In face, show me the same evidence they had or even any evidence apart from the still picture you seem to have drawn these conclusions from.

[ArrowsFA1]

So basically he was outbraking himself.
In the same way that he "outbraked himself" when he made the pass on Kimi?

Hamilton said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62230):

"I outbraked both of them, Fernando and Felipe, and I was very close to take Fernando as well but Felipe clipped me and sent me over the second part of the chicane, so I lost that opportunity."

The opportunity was there to get inside Alonso through the second part of the chicane. Hamilton may have taken that opportunity, or he may have decided not to, but before he could make that decision he was clipped by Massa.

[ioan]

In the same way that he "outbraked himself" when he made the pass on Kimi?

Not really. Noticed the different lines on the two different cases?



The opportunity was there to get inside Alonso through the second part of the chicane. Hamilton may have taken that opportunity, or he may have decided not to, but before he could make that decision he was clipped by Massa.

Cutting in front of others may result in contact if you don't pay attention.

[markabilly]

In the same way that he "outbraked himself" when he made the pass on Kimi?

Hamilton said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62230):


The opportunity was there to get inside Alonso through the second part of the chicane. Hamilton may have taken that opportunity, or he may have decided not to, but before he could make that decision he was clipped by Massa.


Go back and look at the tape--I just did...the clip actually helped straighten LH's car...then review the clear path of LH car from above...LH was not going to make the second corner with or without a bump

As to the pass on KR, LH was on the inside and slowing in a straight line then turning for the second corner---the extra space and slower speed at the apex kept him on track, unlike his pass on Massa (he was going much faster than Massa at the apex and had far less room to complete the corner, unlike with KR where he was going slower than KR as they both turned into the apex--difference was that LH was there first and KR had to lock up to avoid a collision)

That pass on KR was a classic...and for a certain poster who whined above...do I need to define "classic"???

Fact is now almost all passes are completed by blocking----because the inside move means the corner is much tighter, the car passing will always be going slower at the apex, then the car that is being passed nromally would be going...simple physics

This leaves the car being passed at a chance of a better exit and acceleration unless the passing car manages to stay in a position to ruin the exit and run to the next corner of the car that was passed......

[race aficionado]

But Kimi didn't put up to much fight either. :(

no link to support it, just came on conversation with someone hearing about it . . .

but it turns out that Kimi- still in pain after his big shunt - would put his neck down when braking- you will notice his head down when LH surprised him on that corner.

Kimi wasn't 100% and LH's pass was still awesome.

:s mokin:

[markabilly]

no link to support it, just came on conversation with someone hearing about it . . .

but it turns out that Kimi- still in pain after his big shunt - would put his neck down when braking- you will notice his head down when LH surprised him on that corner.

Kimi wasn't 100% and LH's pass was still awesome.

:s mokin:
Not much of a fight?? There were only three things to do--at the point when LH was beginning his move, immediately jump in to his lane, but he was a split second slow seeing that, so the other was to crash into him, or try to slow down and avoid contact with a better exit from the second corner or hope that LH took himself off the track.....

He could have tried to stay to the outside and have both go in side by side, but that was NOT doable because of Kimi's line into the corner and LH line---the Button deal was very different both cars went down the straight side by side at same speed, and then into the corners

[Kevincal]

I can't find video of the start anywhere on the net... :/ Someone said LH gave FM one foot from the grass... It looked more to me like a few inches at most... And LH was going way too fast to make the chicane. It's very laughable that some of you really believe FM ran into LH. LH turned right into him in a desperate attempt at making the chicane.

[markabilly]

I can't find video of the start anywhere on the net... :/ Someone said LH gave FM one foot from the grass... It looked more to me like a few inches at most... And LH was going way too fast to make the chicane. It's very laughable that some of you really believe FM ran into LH. LH turned right into him in a desperate attempt at making the chicane.

I made a recording from the race from the live feed---I now watch the recording and fast forward through most of the race and stupid commercials
Keeps me from falling a sleep and missing the good stuff

In ten minutes, I saw the entire race and could slow motion to my heart's content

Most of the important stuff was not shown live but replay a minute or two later---the pass of KR was completely missed, and while the announcers were sqawking for a minute or so, they finally showed a replay--the same with Button and Nico

Massa's breakdown coverage was very sporadic---he makes a very early pit stop, then he is ignored until he is clearly limping back to the pits

FINALLY very little replay was shown of the first lap/first corner and it was brief. I can see how some honestly believe Massa was at fault and LH was an angel or just the opposite....but when one watches all the replays and angles very slowly, esp the view from inside the Massa car where he is almost to the apex and LH comes flashing by at what appears to be twice the velocity, there is no way for Massa to react at all and make any steering movements to avoid contact

OTOH--what is clear is that LH was going too fast and was too far off the line to make the second corner if he had never been touched


Indeed the contact appears to have really benefitted LH as it straightened the path of LH's car by turning the front thro the rear contact such that if it had not occurred, LH would have been headed further off the track......and there also would have been no excuse to let LH stay in front

But all that matters not when Massa car broke......

[Easy Drifter]

I do not know how many of the posters on here have actually raced. As one who has I have no problems with any of the passes at Monza. It was good hard racing and that was it. You do not get to a top F1 drive with an 'after you old boy' attitude. Sure it was hard but so what?
That is it imo which isn't worth any more than anyone elses. The only possible difference is I have been there and involved in similar incidents albeit long ago and at far slower speeds.

[markabilly]

I do not know how many of the posters on here have actually raced. As one who has I have no problems with any of the passes at Monza. It was good hard racing and that was it. You do not get to a top F1 drive with an 'after you old boy' attitude. Sure it was hard but so what?
That is it imo which isn't worth any more than anyone elses. The only possible difference is I have been there and involved in similar incidents albeit long ago and at far slower speeds.
The rule is hard racing, but if you cut the chicane to pass in almost any motor racing, then you lose the position

My days of cars and then bikes as in 170 mph superbikes have come and gone

But even then, a thousand million years ago.... taking the run off to make a pass was illegal and a penalty to be paid

[jens]

I can't understand, what some of you are complaining about. Hamilton was ahead of Massa while turning into the corner and as Massa touched Hamilton's car, then that affected Lewis to take a shortcut in order to avoid a bigger collision.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Indeed the contact appears to have really benefitted LH as it straightened the path of LH's car by turning the front thro the rear contact such that if it had not occurred, LH would have been headed further off the track......and there also

No it didn't. The contact forced Lewis to crank in some opposite lock to prevent spinning and therefore caused him to drift wide.

But it doesn't matter. This was a racing incident in a motor race, where is the problem?

[Daniel]

No it didn't. The contact forced Lewis to crank in some opposite lock to prevent spinning and therefore caused him to drift wide.

But it doesn't matter. This was a racing incident in a motor race, where is the problem?
The argument is that if Lewis hadn't hit Massa he was already going through the runoff area anyway. You just see what you want to see.

[F1MAN2007]

So the stewards looked at it and decided because it was Hamilton that he should get away with it? That is quite clearly a load of cobblers :rolleyes:

I remember also the comentators on LH's TV saying that probably there should be investigation about that touch?! But nothing happened, and I thought Anthony was already in steward's office and sorted out the problem before it get worse!! :D

[markabilly]

No it didn't. The contact forced Lewis to crank in some opposite lock to prevent spinning and therefore caused him to drift wide.

But it doesn't matter. This was a racing incident in a motor race, where is the problem?

What???One puts in opposite lock to straighten the car, not to drift wide :rolleyes:

If he had no contact, he was still going to have to straighten or the car goes off--

Some of you know nothing about how to power out of a corner and square it off by using opposite lock :rolleyes:

Point is that he was too fast and off the line, and going off he was.

If LH was any kind of English gentleman, he would send a thank you note and flowers to Massa for the help he got.... :D

[F1MAN2007]

So basically he was outbraking himself.


:laugh: :laugh: :rotflmao:

[SGWilko]

Some of you know nothing about how to power out of a corner and square it off by using opposite lock :rolleyes:



With you being an ace motor racing driver n'all :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

:laugh: :laugh: :rotflmao:
You've obviously never heard the phrase?

Outbraking an oponent means you brake later than them (What LH did to KR)
Outbraking yourself is braking too late to get around the corner.

[F1MAN2007]

....
Outbraking yourself is braking too late to get around the corner.

So, is there any problem if I am laughing on it?!

[Daniel]

Does your dog eat Crunchy Nut Cornflakes?

[F1MAN2007]

I don't have a dog?

[Daniel]

Perhaps you should do.

[F1MAN2007]

so where is the other posts?!

[pino]

so where is the other posts?!

Removed, back to the topic now...

[markabilly]

With you being an ace motor racing driver n'all :rolleyes:

No, just better than you will ever be... :D

[MAX_THRUST]

I have just received information to prove Lewis was not dirty at the start of the race. Half hour prior to the start he had had a shower!!!

We can all calm down.....Still think its all a mute point, Massa didn't finish the race. Remmeber MR M Schumacher, he did moves like that throughout his career, it was accepted most times then, so accept it now, if the other driver hasn't got the round hairy bits he needs to go side by side with another driver then mentally he hasn't the will to beat him. LH wouldn't have rammed him off the road, but he will make the gap small. Fine piece of racing by the boy, shame more drivers aren't like it. Although DC had some fun with Schumi over the years.......Makes me Miss JPM and JV all the more, ballsy drivers.

[markabilly]

I have just received information to prove Lewis was not dirty at the start of the race. Half hour prior to the start he had had a shower!!!

We can all calm down.....Still think its all a mute point, Massa didn't finish the race. Remmeber MR M Schumacher, he did moves like that throughout his career, it was accepted most times then, so accept it now, if the other driver hasn't got the round hairy bits he needs to go side by side with another driver then mentally he hasn't the will to beat him. LH wouldn't have rammed him off the road, but he will make the gap small. Fine piece of racing by the boy, shame more drivers aren't like it. Although DC had some fun with Schumi over the years.......Makes me Miss JPM and JV all the more, ballsy drivers.

Excuse me...around here there is NO SUCH THING as a MUTE POINT... silence is unaccetable...

OTOH, that is what I said before, LH should have got moved behind Massa so he could watch his rear suspension or whatever go blonk (or pass him like he did KR, as he was much faster down the straights than the ferraris on top end speed), so it is moot....but why let something like that get in the way of a good fussing...... :cool:

[F1MAN2007]

Removed, back to the topic now...

Thank you Boss

[F1MAN2007]

Following all the contreversies about the fight in 1st corner, I am confused now about what the FIA qualify as "Blocking"? Because, what I have seen so far, since the start of this season, everything is allowed as long as you protect or you want to move up positions.


Last year in Monza, FA has been penalised for having blocked Massa during the qualification session while Alonso was more than 300m ahead of Massa. But today, the guys out there are banging between themselves and some with harsh drive? But the FIA stays silent?!

[Daniel]

Excuse me...around here there is NO SUCH THING as a MUTE POINT... silence is unaccetable...

OTOH, that is what I said before, LH should have got moved behind Massa so he could watch his rear suspension or whatever go blonk (or pass him like he did KR, as he was much faster down the straights than the ferraris on top end speed), so it is moot....but why let something like that get in the way of a good fussing...... :cool:
Funny isn't it Markabilly :D

Like saying it's OK for me to go and kill you now because you're going to die anyway one day.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What???One puts in opposite lock to straighten the car, not to drift wide :rolleyes:

If he had no contact, he was still going to have to straighten or the car goes off--

Some of you know nothing about how to power out of a corner and square it off by using opposite lock :rolleyes:



Because he was steering left once the grip came back the car would have snapped left :rolleyes:

If he hadn't been tapped he could easily of braked to get round turn 2.

[Daniel]

Because he was steering left once the grip came back the car would have snapped left :rolleyes:

If he hadn't been tapped he could easily of braked to get round turn 2.
Yes but he was off the racing line and if he'd made the apex he would have flown off to the right of the track.....

[markabilly]

Following all the contreversies about the fight in 1st corner, I am confused now about what the FIA qualify as "Blocking"? Because, what I have seen so far, since the start of this season, everything is allowed as long as you protect or you want to move up positions.


Last year in Monza, FA has been penalised for having blocked Massa during the qualification session while Alonso was more than 300m ahead of Massa. But today, the guys out there are banging between themselves and some with harsh drive? But the FIA stays silent?!

There is blocking that is suppose to be illegal in that prevents one from passing by jumping out in front and then swerving back and forth.....but there is blocking that (for better or worse) always occurrs in order to succesfully complete an inside pass in these days.

There was a time when one could out brake an opponent before entry, move back over and enter into the more traditional racing line without such an appearance as a block, but even then, the angle of the curve for the passing driver was usually much tighter as he was entering the corner slightly off line and he better be going slower or off he was going to go.....

Unfortunately now outbraking an opponent means getting to the apex before your opponent, blocking his entry and slamming on your brakes to avoid going off roading, but resulting in a very slow corner speed and exit speed--all because of technology---and in order to prevent a passed car from jumping around in front, the use of position is necessary to ruin his exit, or nothing has been done....hence block passing


And now it has gotten popular to brake too hard or too early to the apex (as in brake check blocking) so as to make it impossible for the driver to know when he can accelerate or brake without crunching the rear of the car in front

That was DC's explanation of the problem in Monza where he lost his front wing--he ran into the car in front because the car was going too slow so as to throw him off......


in the good ole days when I started such was way too dangerously stupid and the cars had no wings to prevent wheel to wheel contact.....and crashes had a much high probability of being fatal--

A driver doing such was not likely to be penalized or banned at all; he just ended up with a very premature end to his career as in dead, and even the safest such as Bruce McLaren died in simple solo crashes way too often

[ioan]

Remmeber MR M Schumacher, he did moves like that throughout his career, it was accepted most times then...

I can't remember that MS used to overtake by overshooting the chicanes and his action good or bad were almost never accepted let alone most of the time being accepted. But you might not have been around here back then so you obviously don't know about it.

[markabilly]

Actually looking at my tape again, i wonder if LH did not deliberaterly choose the path to stay off, to avoid running into FA......because assuming that his car had some magical grip that others did not have, staying on the course meant a good bump into FA's left side (or FA bumping LH--as in did Massa bump LH by going too far out or did LH bump Masssa by cutting him off??????that part is hard to say Although I do think LH was going too fast...)...

Now that would really be something to talk about...bumping FA and maybe knocking his loving teamie out of the race...if they both crashed, they could have exchanged hand shakes and love embraces in front of everyone while waiting for the tow trucks....

[Easy Drifter]

They probably would have to be sweetness and light because when they got back to the pits Mr. Dennis just might have shown a slight trace of being upset.

[Robinho]

He was never going to make it around the corner. Show me anywhere else in the race anyone else use that line........

i realise i'm well off reading the whole thread, but i came to this and wanted to say something - did you see Rosberg and Button later in the race? virtually identical, when 2 cars are side by side that is the line for the corner - as LH was on the inside for the 2nd part of the corner he would have had the line - the racing line is used as the fastest way round the track, you are quite allowed to leave the line to effect a pass! the difference with Rosberg and Button was that they managed to squeeze through side by side without contact, from what i saw LH left Massa enough room on the inside, but there was a slight touch that caused Lewis to alter his line and take to the run-off. by that time Lewis had taken the position and had the inside line for the 2nd part of the chicane, so i don't think it was his fault, but equally i don't blame Massa, such a small tap seemed to be unavoidable with the melee of the 1st corner.

[Robinho]

And if Alonso had taken the racing line and Hamilton had gone through the chicane where was Hamilton heading? Into Alonso...... only if he'd kept he foot flat on the throttle through the rest of the corner. he was clearly behind Alonso at this point, and at a less than optimal racing line for the corner he would have been slower through than Alonso and would have had Massa breathing down his neck - not so different than what actually happened

[Robinho]

The argument is that if Lewis hadn't hit Massa he was already going through the runoff area anyway. You just see what you want to see.


but he wasn't, he'd clearly negotiated the 1st part of the corner, and whilst he wasn't on the optimal racing line for the 2nd part there was nothing to stop him slowing down a little to make the corner. why are people assuming he'd sail off the other side? he didn't have to maintain that speed, which incidentally, wasn't too much to make the 1st half of the chicane!? :confused:

[Robinho]

by the way i've not got a vendetta against Daniel! i just happened to pick up on these points!

i still fail to see why Lewis could not have made the second half of the corner. he could have eased off (big braking effect in an F1 car) or used the brake pedal itself, again quite effective at slowing a speeding F1 car. i agree he was off the ideal line, but had the place and would have kept it through the 2nd part of the corner.

as for what actually happened, the touch from Massa (no blame attached) clearly changed the attitude of Lewis's car, which required a correction of sterring lock into the slide, perhaps he over corrected, perhaps he then made the snap decision to take the easy way and cut the corner after the touch to avoid a bigger accident.

off the line he was very agressive, but Massa had room to get through, he didn't have to back off, harsh but fair.

the "blocking" for the rest of the lap, with the exception of the 2nd chicane was just posturing from both drivers, none of the spots were real overtaking opportunities, massa moved out to fil the mirrors,Hamilton responded, no less than i'd expect of either of them from a first lap.

[Kevincal]

The reason Massa DIDN'T stupidly veer sharply right to let Lewis in is because he knew there was a good chance someone was already there! It was the first corner after all with cars everywhere as usual. The fact remains that Hamilton was going way too fast and couldn't negotiate the chicane. He turned right into Massa's car and damaged it, then proceeded to cut the chicane and decided he wasn't going to be a gentleman and let Massa get his earned position back; Which Massa earned with a great start, even though Lewis lined up on the grid aimed at running Massa nearly off the track to keep him behind, which he failed to do. If Lewis had just lined up straight and worried about his own start he probably would have been comfortably in 2nd. This has got me thinking, why does the FIA allow cars to start on the grid pointing any other direction besides straight? It's just asking for disaster like the GP2 race 3-4 weeks back where the front row cars and teamates nearly had a fatal accident (one car almost landed on the other guys head) only seconds after the green flag was waived...

[Daniel]

but he wasn't, he'd clearly negotiated the 1st part of the corner, and whilst he wasn't on the optimal racing line for the 2nd part there was nothing to stop him slowing down a little to make the corner. why are people assuming he'd sail off the other side? he didn't have to maintain that speed, which incidentally, wasn't too much to make the 1st half of the chicane!? :confused:
He didn't negotiate the first part of the corner though. He went in too fast and was on a collision course with Alonso but thankfully (for Hamilton) Massa gave him a reason to wimp out. He lost out by chopping Massa up (fair move I'll admit) and just went too fast into the chicane to get his place back. Since when has been going around the outside on a chicane been the ideal line? When Hamilton went on to make his legitimate pass where did he go? Up the inside....... now what does that tell you? That the inside line is the better line and anyone else coming in is just barging their way in.

[Daniel]

i realise i'm well off reading the whole thread, but i came to this and wanted to say something - did you see Rosberg and Button later in the race? virtually identical, when 2 cars are side by side that is the line for the corner - as LH was on the inside for the 2nd part of the corner he would have had the line - the racing line is used as the fastest way round the track, you are quite allowed to leave the line to effect a pass! the difference with Rosberg and Button was that they managed to squeeze through side by side without contact, from what i saw LH left Massa enough room on the inside, but there was a slight touch that caused Lewis to alter his line and take to the run-off. by that time Lewis had taken the position and had the inside line for the 2nd part of the chicane, so i don't think it was his fault, but equally i don't blame Massa, such a small tap seemed to be unavoidable with the melee of the 1st corner.
The gentlemanly thing would have been to give back the place. If he had got through without contact then fine. But he didn't and he hit Massa and he should have given the place back. What happened to Massa afterwards is irrelevant. I do think F1 will become exciting for all the wrong reasons if this style of "overtaking" becomes commonplace.

[Bagwan]

Lewis , you got away with a couple of close calls here .
I want you to listen up .

If you had pushed Massa any farther to the left , you would have seen him off , and that will make you no friends . I like hard racing , but that was pushing it .

As for the first corner , when you cut in front of a guy you know has too much momentum , he will tag you . You need to give a little more room there , too .
Felipe had the inside , and you had the speed to do it , but you've got to expect , when a guy is tight like that , like when you went by Kimi , he has to slide through .

It did seem you were quite clever on the spur of the moment , though , knowing that the tap would enable you to cut the chicane , instead of following Fernando , possibly allowing Felipe back along side , to fight at the second corner .

About the Kimi pass , it was alright , but don't try the banzai lunge with just anyone . Kimi is a craftsman , and can handle that kind of move .


Carry on , Lewis , but be careful out there .

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

i don't think hamilton is a dirty driver or drives dirty. notice to competitors, keep your heads up.
the last move was just that: the last move.
think about a circle in geometry, it is actually a connection of staight lines.

[Valve Bounce]

As Max would say "This is not the classical Music"

[Tazio]

LH is very ceative off the start. Reminds me a little of Fred. If he's dirty, he is M Shumacher dirty. Nothing wrong with that. I don't blame him for trying to stick it in there at the start. If he makes a habit of taking it too far, he will be Eiger Sanctioned!

[wmcot]

LH is very ceative off the start. Reminds me a little of Fred. If he's dirty, he is M Shumacher dirty. Nothing wrong with that. I don't blame him for trying to stick it in there at the start. If he makes a habit of taking it too far, he will be Eiger Sanctioned!

Nothing happened that was unusual in modern F1 racing. He was even nice enough to line his car up at an angle to warn of what was coming. As long as race officials allow the tactics, they are legal. Hopefully, they would stop it before it reached the point of Senna-Prost Suzuka 1990!

[ioan]

think about a circle in geometry, it is actually a connection of staight lines.

Not to much to do with the thread but I'll pick this point up. Could you explain this theory of yours?

[Flat.tyres]

Some posts I read on here with increasing incredularity.

Comments like "A gentleman would have let Massa through" are frankly incredible.

Is this F1? The pinnacle of motoracing or Saturday night down the wine bar chatting up the Girls.

Facts:

He left Massa track and didn't push him on the grass like some other drivers have in the past. Can anyone argue that that was wrong? Please? Anyone?

He was just about past Massa coming into the 2nd part of the corner where he had track position. Can anyone prove he wouldn't have made that corner if he hadn't have been tagged by Massa? No? Lets face it, any touch will unsettle the car and the difference between making a corner and cutting it is a microsecond that was accounted for by the touch.

Now, opinions are fine but when people here are stating as fact that he wouldn't have made the corner and even that the touch helped him, then I personally do not agree. We saw what we saw. Two drivers disputing a place. 1 was in front and got tagged. Immediatly after the touch, the driver that got hit cut a small section of a corner.

The FIA investigated and found nothing wrong.

End of story.

On a side note, Massa seems to have more than his fair share of these little taps when people go past him.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

Not to much to do with the thread but I'll pick this point up. Could you explain this theory of yours?

...shortest distance: two corners to navigate... reduce the number of straight lines: a line is a series of points. all that's left is the requisite real estate: now drive

[Daniel]

...shortest distance: two corners to navigate... reduce the number of straight lines: a line is a series of points. all that's left is the requisite real estate: now drive
WTF?

[leopard]

...shortest distance: two corners to navigate... reduce the number of straight lines: a line is a series of points. all that's left is the requisite real estate: now drive

This may need arithmetics also to support this trigonometry theory, but his start squeezing Massa didn't support this theory as it took up more series of points, btw good assessment. :)

[MAX_THRUST]

Did any of you guys see the GP2 race????Now there was some great racing and some dirty moves as well. I think with F1 we get so used to seeing no overtaking it is a shock when someone pulls something off.....

[Flat.tyres]

Did any of you guys see the GP2 race????Now there was some great racing and some dirty moves as well. I think with F1 we get so used to seeing no overtaking it is a shock when someone pulls something off.....

Much more fun :D

They made the comment that I have been saying about the air boxes as well.

One of the big problems in F1 is the intakes suffer when behind another car while the GP2 don't. Would that not be a simple, positive step forward for the FIA to introduce. We go on about the aero all the time but the pressured boxes are just as bad and easy to rectify.

[Robinho]

He didn't negotiate the first part of the corner though. He went in too fast and was on a collision course with Alonso but thankfully (for Hamilton) Massa gave him a reason to wimp out. He lost out by chopping Massa up (fair move I'll admit) and just went too fast into the chicane to get his place back. Since when has been going around the outside on a chicane been the ideal line? When Hamilton went on to make his legitimate pass where did he go? Up the inside....... now what does that tell you? That the inside line is the better line and anyone else coming in is just barging their way in.

i'm sorry, but i simply don't agree with you on this one :)

i said he wasn't on the ideal racing line - on that we agree, but the racing line is the fastest, all other ways of going round the corner are available and fair, they are alowed to use all the track.

by passing Massa on the outside, that gave him the inside for the 2nd half of the chicane and the chance to complete a block pass.

i fail to see why he could not have negotiated the 2nd part of the chicane (the left turn) the pic showed he was round the 1st part, pointing towards the 2nd part. why could he not have slowed down at all to take this corner from there? Alonso was on the fastest line and would have been on the gas and well away before he got there. whislt Lewis would not have been fast round the 2nd part of the corner he would have had track position over Massa. as it is the touch makes this all conjecture, but i don;t see why it is so certain that Lewis was going off until he cut the 2nd part. watch any in car footage of the chicane, preferable when 2 cars are close and there is time to slow before the 2nd (left) turn. he had made the 1st 90 degree right hand part of the corner, albeit missing the apex, but still on the track.

If Kim had resisted Lewis's move by staying off the brakes or tryuing to carry more speed into the corner and entered half a car length ahead, and subsequently kept second would he have been "barging their way in" or legitimately racing for position.

there is no rule on what side you can overtake on, sure the inside is generally the easiest, but when there is already someone there and especially when its a switch back like at Monza then round the outside is just as acceptable. as for the touch, by virtue of being ahead on the track, Lewis got their first, therefore who hit who? ;) i'm only playing devils advocate, as personally i don't blame either driver for the touch, just squabbling over the same peice fo road resulting in the lightest of contact - i've not heard either driver complain or say otherwise.

[ArrowsFA1]

i said he wasn't on the ideal racing line - on that we agree, but the racing line is the fastest, all other ways of going round the corner are available and fair, they are alowed to use all the track.
That brings to mind James Hunt's comment that "you shouldn't pass around the outside" to Mario Andretti after their collision at Tarzan corner at the 1977 Dutch GP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMob4fXsb4w), and Michael Schumacher's reaction to Villeneuve passing him around the outside of the final turn at the 1996 Portugese GP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbOU-TCbvPM).

[Flat.tyres]

That brings to mind James Hunt's comment that "you shouldn't pass around the outside" to Mario Andretti after their collision at Tarzan corner at the 1977 Dutch GP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMob4fXsb4w), and Michael Schumacher's reaction to Villeneuve passing him around the outside of the final turn at the 1996 Portugese GP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbOU-TCbvPM).

Throughly enjoyed looking at that old Dutch footace. Magic!! :up:

Oh, what would we give for ballsy sideways action such as that again :)

[ioan]

...shortest distance: two corners to navigate... reduce the number of straight lines: a line is a series of points. all that's left is the requisite real estate: now drive

This might be some kind of philosophy but is sure no geometry.

As for:

think about a circle in geometry, it is actually a connection of staight lines.

A circle is actually a connection of an infinite number of points but not of straight lines, at least form the POV of the geometry.

[Valve Bounce]

This might be some kind of philosophy but is sure no geometry.

As for:


A circle is actually a connection of an infinite number of points but not of straight lines, at least form the POV of the geometry.

Depends what the guy is smoking :p :

[markabilly]

i'm sorry, but i simply don't agree with you on this one :)

i said he wasn't on the ideal racing line - on that we agree, but the racing line is the fastest, all other ways of going round the corner are available and fair, they are alowed to use all the track.

by passing Massa on the outside, that gave him the inside for the 2nd half of the chicane and the chance to complete a block pass.

i fail to see why he could not have negotiated the 2nd part of the chicane (the left turn) the pic showed he was round the 1st part, pointing towards the 2nd part. why could he not have slowed down at all to take this corner from there? Alonso was on the fastest line and would have been on the gas and well away before he got there. whislt Lewis would not have been fast round the 2nd part of the corner he would have had track position over Massa. as it is the touch makes this all conjecture, but i don;t see why it is so certain that Lewis was going off until he cut the 2nd part. watch any in car footage of the chicane, preferable when 2 cars are close and there is time to slow before the 2nd (left) turn. he had made the 1st 90 degree right hand part of the corner, albeit missing the apex, but still on the track.

.

One can not rely on the photo but must look at all the tapes as shown on the telly......it is clear that LH was going way too fast

And assuming no touch by Massa and a magical increase in grip to stay on track, FA was bouncing over the curbs and landed in a position that completely took that racing line away from LH, such that if LH remained on track, FA and LH would collide without question upon exit from the corner

As it was, LH was going so fast that he was actually along side FA as FA came off the corner but off the road--indeed it is clear that LH could have passed FA if the second corner had been much shallower and the portion of the road included where LH was located.

But it did become moot when FM broke--at what point the FIA had or had not reached a decision on whether to penalize LH or not by making him pull over and let FM go by, I do not know.

not much point in having a driver pull over to let another driver pass when he is in the pits......all busted down or some post race investigation or whatever....when the pass made no difference about nine laps later

As having said al that about LH, it was not such a foul that deserves any kind of review as has happenned with some other racing incidents such as the MS/JV wdc smack down....i would think the most would be a simple requirement that FM be placed in front of LH..so

[ioan]

Depends what the guy is smoking :p :

Good point, I didn't actually think about that! :D

[Easy Drifter]

I asked earlier how many have actually raced cars. Markabilly has and I respect his opinion although I disagree with him this time. I have been in these first corner melees and have both hit and been hit, none of it on purpose. You do not have time to think. You do everything on instinct and are too bl--dy busy to do anything but react. Yes you may have planned moves before the start but they rarely if ever work out to the way you want.
I do respect everyones' opinions but have to admit I will give more credulance to those who have been there. From reading the posts I can guess that there are several racers, past or present, posting.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

This may need arithmetics also to support this trigonometry theory, but his start squeezing Massa didn't support this theory as it took up more series of points, btw good assessment. :)


thanks, never wanted to race or have raced a car. but i do know a thing or two about fighter planes and basic fighter manouvers, and this is the closest reference i have to driving an f1 car at speed thru' a chicane, so i see the solution differently. also, if you've ever used a serious 3dmodeller, then you'll understand the reference to a circle being a connection of straight lines.
My opinion. Thank you.

[ioan]

thanks, never wanted to race or have raced a car. but i do know a thing or two about fighter planes and basic fighter manouvers, and this is the closest reference i have to driving an f1 car at speed thru' a chicane, so i see the solution differently.

I never saw a race car do a loop nor other aviation related maneuver.


also, if you've ever used a serious 3dmodeller, then you'll understand the reference to a circle being a connection of straight lines.


Circles are represented as connections of a greater or smaller number of straight lines in more and less serious 3D modeling and engineering softwares because we can't model an infinite number of points to trace a perfect circle due to understandable limitations of computing power.
As you can see it's not because of geometry, it's because of a way to simplify reality to suit the computational power we have at our disposal at this moment.
And this isn't my opinion, it's a fact.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

I never saw a race car do a loop nor other aviation related maneuver.



Circles are represented as connections of a greater or smaller number of straight lines in more and less serious 3D modeling and engineering softwares because we can't model an infinite number of points to trace a perfect circle due to understandable limitations of computing power.
As you can see it's not because of geometry, it's because of a way to simplify reality to suit the computational power we have at our disposal at this moment.
And this isn't my opinion, it's a fact.

well, if you take the time to look at everything that i've posted on this thread, you may be able, i stress, may be able to see that I KNOW THIS.
If you take the time to look at my argumentS, you would understand, that this was an argument TO conclude that hamilton was loking for the fastest, CLEANEST path to exit the last corner. This should have been obvious.
You may or may not take this personaly, i hope you don't.
I state my opinions, no rancor, they are just that OPINIONS.
Why in the wide wild world of sports should i expect you to read my mind?
I tried to simplify after you asked for a clarification: you didn't get it, and you still don't. FACT

[Daniel]

well, if you take the time to look at everything that i've posted on this thread, you may be able, i stress, may be able to see that I KNOW THIS.
If you take the time to look at my argumentS, you would understand, that this was an argument TO conclude that hamilton was loking for the fastest, CLEANEST path to exit the last corner. This should have been obvious.
You may or may not take this personaly, i hope you don't.
I state my opinions, no rancor, they are just that OPINIONS.
Why in the wide wild world of sports should i expect you to read my mind?
I tried to simplify after you asked for a clarification: you didn't get it, and you still don't. FACT
You obviously know nothing. The quickest line through a chicane like the monza one is always to keep to the right into the chicane and to keep to the left coming out......

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

You obviously know nothing. The quickest line through a chicane like the monza one is always to keep to the right into the chicane and to keep to the left coming out......


and if the quickest line thru' the chicane is being used by another car? what to do? twiddle thumbs? relax with the absolutes. there're are many way to attack a problem.

[Daniel]

go in too quick bump into the other car and go through the chicane and don't give back your ill gotten place obviously.

[Firstgear]

And this isn't my opinion, it's a fact.

Better change your signature then.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

go in too quick bump into the other car and go through the chicane and don't give back your ill gotten place obviously.

daniel i'm not gonna argue this point with you: the fact is there has been no dq for any infraction by hamilton. Look i'm a fan of mclaren: why british engineering: having said that i will never, i repeat never condone cheating.
in my line of work, it could be detrimental to someone to fudge the results.
so, i must always ensure that results and observations are correct.
if you believe hamiltons is dirty, thats your opinion based on whatever premises you choose: i accept this: you have a right to your opinion.

[markabilly]

I asked earlier how many have actually raced cars. Markabilly has and I respect his opinion although I disagree with him this time. I have been in these first corner melees and have both hit and been hit, none of it on purpose. You do not have time to think. You do everything on instinct and are too bl--dy busy to do anything but react. Yes you may have planned moves before the start but they rarely if ever work out to the way you want.
I do respect everyones' opinions but have to admit I will give more credulance to those who have been there. From reading the posts I can guess that there are several racers, past or present, posting.

I agree with you on this point.
I never said it was deliberate or premediated or anything else about the first corner, just that he got an advantage that under the rules should have been lost.....indeed for that particular penalty to apply, it is suppose to be somewhat automatic as being something akin to the days of old where a steel guard rail was too often present---hit that and the penalty was automatically imposed by the guard rail.

But now there is a nice run-off where instead of a bent car or a fatality, there is a potential advantage to be gained by over-zealous use.....

but again, the stewards now take into consideration as to why the run-off occurred and how much of an advantage gained whereas before it did not matter why you got there, the penalty was painfully imposed

If it had been deliberate, then the question should have been addressed post race, but then i do not see it as such.......

[Flat.tyres]

I asked earlier how many have actually raced cars. Markabilly has and I respect his opinion although I disagree with him this time. I have been in these first corner melees and have both hit and been hit, none of it on purpose. You do not have time to think. You do everything on instinct and are too bl--dy busy to do anything but react. Yes you may have planned moves before the start but they rarely if ever work out to the way you want.


:up:

I really struggle with anyone getting upset with what lewis did. Massa should have closed the door before he had the chance of going round but probably didn't expect it.

Had I been massa. I would never have moaned about someone that had stuffed me and I had tagged in the process. I'd have been ripped for being soft.

[ioan]

and if the quickest line thru' the chicane is being used by another car? what to do? twiddle thumbs? relax with the absolutes. there're are many way to attack a problem.

This is like reading Dilbert all over again! Managers... ;)

[ioan]

Had I been massa. I would never have moaned about someone that had stuffed me and I had tagged in the process. I'd have been ripped for being soft.

Did he moan?! Where and when?

[janneppi]

I believe even Massa said he was ok with the first corner battle. Which from his previous comments in mind should really put this discussion about Hamiltons lines to rest. ;)

[Easy Drifter]

Actually, most stewards I have met (quite a large #) have either never raced or were pretty poor drivers. I do not know the names of many of the FIA bunch but of the ones I do know I know of only 2 that raced and they were not much good but at least they had been out there.
Being involved in this crazy sport for over (good grief) 50 years I have found that drivers and ex drivers view things a little differently than those who have never raced. This is not a put down of those who haven't raced.
I spectated, crewed and marshalled before I raced and found my opinions of incidents changed after I drove.