2007 Italian GP practice, qualifying and race

[Dave B]

As nobody seems to have started this yet, here goes!

Friday practice one:

1. Kimi Raikkonen Finland Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro-Ferrari 01:22.446
2. Felipe Massa Brazil Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro-Ferrari 01:22.590
3. Lewis Hamilton Britain Vodafone McLaren Mercedes-Mercedes 01:22.618
4. Fernando Alonso Spain Vodafone McLaren Mercedes-Mercedes 01:22.840
5. Nico Rosberg Germany AT&T Williams-Toyota 01:23.472
6. Jenson Button Britain Honda Racing F1 Team-Honda 01:23.668
7. Giancarlo Fisichella Italy ING Renault F1 Team-Renault 01:23.671
8. Robert Kubica Poland BMW Sauber F1 Team-BMW 01:23.703
9. Nick Heidfeld Germany BMW Sauber F1 Team-BMW 01:23.886
10. Jarno Trulli Italy Panasonic Toyota Racing-Toyota 01:23.965
11. Heikki Kovalainen Finland ING Renault F1 Team-Renault 01:24.076
12. Rubens Barrichello Brazil Honda Racing F1 Team-Honda 01:24.564
13. Takuma Sato Japan Super Aguri F1 Team-Honda 01:24.587
14. Mark Webber Australia Red Bull Racing-Renault 01:24.595
15. Ralf Schumacher Germany Panasonic Toyota Racing-Toyota 01:24.660
16. Alexander Wurz Austria AT&T Williams-Toyota 01:24.689
17. Anthony Davidson Britain Super Aguri F1 Team-Honda 01:24.694
18. David Coulthard Britain Red Bull Racing-Renault 01:24.810
19. Adrian Sutil Germany Spyker F1 Team-Ferrari 01:25.130
20. Sebastian Vettel Germany Scuderia Toro Rosso-Ferrari 01:25.439
21. Sakon Yamamoto Japan Spyker F1 Team-Ferrari 01:25.448
22. Vitantonio Liuzzi Italy Scuderia Toro Rosso-Ferrari 01:25.762



FP2 has been red-flagged to clear Davidson's Super Aguri, the McLarens have fought back with Alonso currently 0.8s ahead of Hamilton.

However the weekend may be overshadowed by the politlcal row over the spy scandal affair. Personally I'd suggest we keep that to its own existing thread, and use this one to discuss what happens on the track :)

[Ian McC]

McLarens have fought back with Alonso currently 0.8s ahead of Hamilton.


Must have copied Hamiltons set up from FP1 ;) :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

Blimey :eek: Is there a race this weekend? Who'd have thought :p

[Flat.tyres]

1 Fernando Alonso (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/30.html) McLaren-Mercedes (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2910.html) 1:22.386 30
2 Lewis Hamilton (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/828.html) McLaren-Mercedes (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2910.html) 1:23.209 0.823 33
3 Giancarlo Fisichella (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/17.html) Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2909.html) 1:23.584 1.198 38
4 Robert Kubica (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/815.html) BMW (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2913.html) 1:23.599 1.213 44
5 Nico Rosberg (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/809.html) Williams-Toyota (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2916.html) 1:23.679 1.293 33
6 Felipe Massa (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/18.html) Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2911.html) 1:23.722 1.336 27
7 Nick Heidfeld (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/16.html) BMW (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2913.html) 1:23.821 1.435 38
8 Kimi Räikkönen (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/12.html) Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2911.html) 1:23.833 1.447 12
9 Heikki Kovalainen (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/813.html) Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2909.html) 1:23.848 1.462 32
10 Alexander Wurz (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/97.html) Williams-Toyota (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2916.html) 1:23.881 1.495 32
11 Jarno Trulli (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/14.html) Toyota (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2914.html) 1:23.919 1.533 39
12 Ralf Schumacher (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/10.html) Toyota (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2914.html) 1:23.922 1.536 29
13 Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/6.html) Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html) 1:24.137 1.751 36
14 Mark Webber (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/21.html) Red Bull-Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2915.html) 1:24.328 1.942 31
15 Rubens Barrichello (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/8.html) Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html) 1:24.462 2.076 40
16 David Coulthard (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/11.html) Red Bull-Renault (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2915.html) 1:24.605 2.219 31
17 Takuma Sato (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/20.html) Super Aguri-Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2919.html) 1:25.328 2.942 27
18 Sebastian Vettel (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/822.html) STR-Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2917.html) 1:25.459 3.073 36
19 Adrian Sutil (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/818.html) Spyker-Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2918.html) 1:25.531 3.145 24
20 Vitantonio Liuzzi (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/802.html) STR-Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2917.html) 1:25.567 3.181 26
21 Sakon Yamamoto (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/812.html) Spyker-Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2918.html) 1:25.863 3.477 40
22 Anthony Davidson (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/28.html) Super Aguri-Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2919.html) 1:26.021 3.635 6

[Kevincal]

Rosberg seems suprisingly quick...He needs to slow down for the race so he doesn't bugger my Pickems... :P

[stevie_gerrard]

i was chuffed to see Button up in 6th place, only to realise that it was only FP1, and that in FP2 he ended up 13th back to a familiar position :p :

[Ian McC]

Red flagged because Kimi has just put it into the tyre barrier at speed :eek:

[Dave B]

Saturday practice has been red-flagged: Kimi has hit the barrier "at speed" but is fine, according to F1.com

The McLarens are quickest so far, Lewis nine hundreths up on Fernando, but only a handful of laps have been completed.

[Dave B]

In other news, Ian McC can type faster than I can :p

[Ranger]

In sector 3 of Monza that has to be pretty damn fast... If he went off at a corner it would've been at the Ascari chicane or the Parabolica - both somewhere over 170km/h, not to mention if it was the straight. :\

Hope he's OK. :\

[truefan72]

so if they red flag the track, why don't they stop the time.
It's astounding that they wouldn't do that

In Turkey, they took up nearly 40 minutes of the practice time to fix a drain cover

now they take 20 minutes in an hour session to handle the tyre barrier. I am not saying they shouldn't taker their time, Alls' I'm, saying is that the clock should stop running as well during red flag situations.

[Ian McC]

In other news, Ian McC can type faster than I can :p


;) :D

[truefan72]

call me a conspiracy theorist, but I am pretty sure, they are messing with Liuzzi's car!

Out of a sudden he is half a second slower than Vettel? please
on his home track?
I'm pretty sure they got tired of seeing Liuzzi take the boy to the cleaners, which doesn't help their cause, so they mess with liuzzi, typical STR ( Berger and co.) tactics

[MBailey06]

i was chuffed to see Button up in 6th place, only to realise that it was only FP1, and that in FP2 he ended up 13th back to a familiar position :p :

However the time he set in FP1, had he set it in FP2 he would have been up there again.

[Dave B]

so if they red flag the track, why don't they stop the time.
It's astounding that they wouldn't do that

In Turkey, they took up nearly 40 minutes of the practice time to fix a drain cover

now they take 20 minutes in an hour session to handle the tyre barrier. I am not saying they shouldn't taker their time, Alls' I'm, saying is that the clock should stop running as well during red flag situations.
Because it's only a practice session, and a delay would mess up the timetable for the support races :)

[pino]

Great performance by Vettel in Q1 :up:

[Dave B]

And yet another gearbox problem for DC's Red Bull :(

[pino]

It looks like McLaren are too fast at the moment...

[pino]

Jarno did it again :D

[Dave B]

It looks like McLaren are too fast at the moment...
I'm not so sure they'll translate that into race pace :\

[pino]

I'm not so sure they'll translate that into race pace :\

I hope not, but you never know ;)

[VkmSpouge]

Alonso clearly the class of the field so far and McLaren do appear to have the edge on Ferrari. Ferrari will have to use good strategy to beat the McLarens tomorrow and Raikkonen may well have his race compromised if he can't pass Heidfeld at the start. Good performance by Jenson Button, Honda clearly like Monza and might have got both cars in the top ten.

[jens]

I'm very happy with the performances of my two favourites. Trulli did an amazing job. He was struggling in 14th-15th for most of the qualifying (Ralf was just a tenth slower and missed out of Q2), but at the end of Q2 Jarno managed to put in an incredible lap by qualifying into Top10. :up: Vettel, for who this weekend is the first one, where he has got already at least some experience with the car, managed to beat Liuzzi and was also fighting very hard in Q2. But as the competiton was very tight, he missed out of Q3 only by 2 tenths, which meant P16...

[stevie_gerrard]

YEH!! :D Button back in the top 10! Heres hoping more points are on the way :D

[ioan]

I'll wait for the race before making the final assessment, but for now Ferrari are not up to it.

[janneppi]

Macs have indeed been faster than Feraris in Monza, at least for now, and as normal, Kimi has had very bad weekend been able to run only a small portion of laps compared to others. Hopefully he's heavier than the guys infront , but I'm not holding my breath for that.
Fortunately Heikki did better today.

[truefan72]

race should be good

I think Alonso is running a little lighter than everyone else. LH did a solid job, Let's have no first corner incident guys. This will probsbly be the first race where the two of them are going to trully race each other on the track. There absolutely cannot be any team orders in this race!

Trulli did a very good job, once again showing that the Toyota has some pace in capable hands ( or when RS is on form). and he didn't even use much curb either.

Congrats Button, lets hope its a turning point for Honda

As usual BMW's doing a good job

Ferrari's a bit dissapointing. And a bit omnious with the failure in Kimmi's car. Even if he attributes it to a "bump"

Rosberg impressive, but I have a strong feeling that wurz will out do him in the race

look for a very good race from super aguri.

Vettel did OK, but I'm sure they are messing with Liuzzi's car, in any case he is not doing any better than what Speed would have done

Spyker's are still slow

I.m not sure what to think of RBR, probably a retirement from Webber and a mid pack finish from DC.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

i must say, it felt good to see alonso and hamilton speaking to each other during the itv post qualifying interview.
don't have a clue what was said, but it lasted long enough for me to think: good, for the drivers of my favorite team.
Yessss!!!!

[janneppi]

After all that's been going lately, it was good to see Macs beating Ferrari at their home turf. :D
Even if it means Kimi's chances to win the WDC were shot down perhaps for good now.

[Rollo]

The race is now over and Channel 10 in Australia haven't even started the telecast yet. It simply isn't good enough.

Australia is a Third World Country when it comes to F1 coverage and the sooner that every single person at Channel 10 gets explosive diarrhea, hacked up with a chainsaw and their heads on spikes out the front of the Town Hall the better.

YOU SUCK CHANNEL 10 - BOOOOO!!!! :angryfire :

[veeten]

More points for Alonso, Hamilton, and McLaren-Mercedes, and Ferrari not having one of their better weekends of the season.

Investigations not withstanding, the boys from Woking could be walking away with all the hardware by Shanghai if Ferrari doesn't make some kind of stand.

... and it better start with Spa-Francochamps.

[VkmSpouge]

McLaren had Ferrari beaten all weekend and Alonso was the class of the field. He always had just a crucial couple of tenths per lap on Hamilton that made the difference.
Hamilton had a slow middle stint that very nearly cost him 2nd place but that was a superb move he put on Kimi Raikkonen to take it back.
Nico Rosberg looked good all day and had some nice battles with Button and Kubica.
Honda showed plenty of improved with Button doubling their points with 8th.
Renault looked pretty subdued today.

[jens]

I'm getting sick of Trulli always losing 3-4 positions after the start, which always cost him a strong result. And later people keep saying that Jarno is a useless one-lap-wonder as he finishes lower than starts. :mark: And I don't believe for a second that poor starts are Jarno's fault, because in the previous years, in whatever car he drove he usually had good starts and often gained positions. At least he managed to beat Ralf quite convincingly today.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62215
And analyze it quickly!

Vettel finished quite close to Liuzzi despite Lap1 accident, so I think this was the most impressive weekend of the year for the German.

And finally - let's give some praise to considerably underrated Yamamoto too - he finished only 11 seconds behind Sutil. ;)

[Schnell]

I'm getting sick of Trulli always losing 3-4 positions after the start, which always cost him a strong result. And later people keep saying that Jarno is a useless one-lap-wonder as he finishes lower than starts. :mark: And I don't believe for a second that poor starts are Jarno's fault, because in the previous years, in whatever car he drove he usually had good starts and often gained positions. At least he managed to beat Ralf quite convincingly today.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62215
And analyze it quickly!

Vettel finished quite close to Liuzzi despite Lap1 accident, so I think this was the most impressive weekend of the year for the German.

And finally - let's give some praise to considerably underrated Yamamoto too - he finished only 11 seconds behind Sutil. ;)

Oh! you think ramming AD's Aguri was impressive?
I can't wait for poor ole Ant who's already at a disadvantage, racing a car that hasn't been mauled by a flaming rookie, fisicarless or a damn Groundhog! The 'impressive Vettel' smashed Ant's defuser to bits and damaged one of his dampers! Without this he would have challenged Wurz Williams for position.

[aryan]

The race is now over and Channel 10 in Australia haven't even started the telecast yet. It simply isn't good enough.

Australia is a Third World Country when it comes to F1 coverage and the sooner that every single person at Channel 10 gets explosive diarrhea, hacked up with a chainsaw and their heads on spikes out the front of the Town Hall the better.

YOU SUCK CHANNEL 10 - BOOOOO!!!! :angryfire :

I wholeheartedly sympathise with your sentiments, but it is not Channel 10's fault that there are more people interested in AFL and Rugby than F1.

Do check out the TV Guide http://au.tv.yahoo.com/tv-guide/ so that you are not caught off guard when these things happen.

Australia is a bloody third world country when it comes to broadcasting anything other than footy; I don't have Foxtel and I couldn't get a glimpse of US Open on free-to-air channels; my tax is going to ABC and SBS for what?

[pino]

I'm getting sick of Trulli always losing 3-4 positions after the start, which always cost him a strong result..



Tell me about it :mad:

[ioan]

Very poor race from Ferrari.
It's like if they gave up on this season on the track and concentrate on the spying affair more than on improving their cars.

I miss MS more and more these days. He was able to push the team when a comeback at the end of the season was needed.

[Ranger]

Very poor race from Ferrari.
It's like if they gave up on this season on the track and concentrate on the spying affair more than on improving their cars.

I miss MS more and more these days. He was able to push the team when a comeback at the end of the season was needed.

Fact is, the car is still unreliable. That has been more to do with design and direction (points to Ross Brawn's absense) than driver input.

[ioan]

Fact is, the car is still unreliable. That has been more to do with design and direction (points to Ross Brawn's absense) than driver input.

The car was simply slow! The fact that Felipe got a problem with the rear suspension after a touch with Hamilton is not a reliability problem either.

They also had to many reliability problems this year compared to their high standards, but I would put it more down to motivation than to Ross Brawn's presence. After all Ross wasn't checking every part personally.

I would just say that the team isn't motivated by the drivers to do a much better work, and that is sad, as we all know that they can do better.

[ShiftingGears]

I was slightly disappointed with Raikkonen getting passed yesterday, it seemed like he could've defended his line a little better, as Hamilton came from a very long way back.

[janneppi]

I would just say that the team isn't motivated by the drivers to do a much better work, and that is sad, as we all know that they can do better.
If the drivers aren't up to the task, then it's the managements job to push them, the engineers and mechanics. Or engineers and mechanics themselves need to take their heads up their bums and do the work properly, let the drivers fail on track, but they shouldn't be the ones to manage a whole team.

[Ranger]

I'd also point out that Ferrari knew exactly what they were getting when they signed both of their drivers last year, and it would be naive to think otherwise.

[ioan]

If the drivers aren't up to the task, then it's the managements job to push them, the engineers and mechanics. Or engineers and mechanics themselves need to take their heads up their bums and do the work properly, let the drivers fail on track, but they shouldn't be the ones to manage a whole team.

There was another driver there before them who did it clearly better, so I fail to see your point about engineers and mechanics, whom by the way are mostly the same as before. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

I'd also point out that Ferrari knew exactly what they were getting when they signed both of their drivers last year, and it would be naive to think otherwise.

Could you tell me how well would Kimi get along with the BMW team next year? I guess not.

[Ranger]

Could you tell me how well would Kimi get along with the BMW team next year? I guess not.

Nope, but if they paid in excess of $30 million for his services like Ferrari did, you would assume so.

[Flat.tyres]

The car was simply slow! The fact that Felipe got a problem with the rear suspension after a touch with Hamilton is not a reliability problem either.

They also had to many reliability problems this year compared to their high standards, but I would put it more down to motivation than to Ross Brawn's presence. After all Ross wasn't checking every part personally.

I would just say that the team isn't motivated by the drivers to do a much better work, and that is sad, as we all know that they can do better.

Just a quick question. How did Massa banging his front tyre into Hamiltons rear affect the rear suspension on the Ferrari. :confused:

[janneppi]

There was another driver there before them who did it clearly better, so I fail to see your point about engineers and mechanics, whom by the way are mostly the same as before. :rolleyes:
The point is that drivers shouldn't be nursing the mechanics and engineers through their daily tasks. If some German bloke used to do the job of a team manager, that's Todt's problem to correct, not Massa's or Kimi's.

Furthemore, I wouldn't say the missing of senior staff likes of Brawn and Stepney is a small matter either.

[Flat.tyres]

The point is that drivers shouldn't be nursing the mechanics and engineers through their daily tasks. If some German bloke used to do the job of a team manager, that's Todt's problem to correct, not Massa's or Kimi's.

Furthemore, I wouldn't say the missing of senior staff likes of Brawn and Stepney is a small matter either.

Ferrari allowed Schumacher to achieve demi-god status which was always going to lead to problems when he left.

Couple that with Brawn and Stepney not being there and you have a team with half of the heart ripped out of it.

They need to rebuild quickly and work from the inside instead of fighting very public legal battles through the FIA and the courts. That's not going to help them next year when BMW and Renault are giving them whoop ass even if McLaren are guilty and get sanctioned.

[ioan]

The point is that drivers shouldn't be nursing the mechanics and engineers through their daily tasks. If some German bloke used to do the job of a team manager, that's Todt's problem to correct, not Massa's or Kimi's.

Who said there is need to pampering anyone?
But it is clear that the direction the drivers are giving to the developments is not right.
The engineers are those who work day and night to improve those cars, but they do need correct feedback or else it's all in vain.
The engineers are the same ones, but the driver that used to give them the best feedback for a decade is not there anymore. So the 2 drivers they have now better improve the way they do their jobs.

It is pretty difficult to achieve reliability while continuously pushing for speed to catch up with the others.

And drivers have their fair share of blame to take in all this history.


Furthemore, I wouldn't say the missing of senior staff likes of Brawn and Stepney is a small matter either.

Bleh Stepney, no one needs a traitor (no one but McLaren :D ).

[Garry Walker]

And drivers have their fair share of blame to take in all this history.


No.
Ferraris problems are not the drivers, it is the fact that their car is not quick enough, nor is it reliable enough.
Look, I am a fan of Schumacher too, but it is time for some people to get over him and stop being teenage girl-like.
He is retired and there is no reason to compare FM and KR to the best driver ever, it is unfair on them and serves no use. MS is past, lets look towards the future now.
The current situation is that the McLaren is a superior car compared to the Ferrari and they never seem to be off form, unlike Ferrari. Just look at various qualifying sessions and a few races of this year to see how badly Ferraris have struggled.

Monza was a really really disgraceful race for Ferrari. Problems for Kimi in practises, and the suspension problem for both FM and KR in the race (apparently Ferrari told KR to stop taking some curbs after FM retired). McLaren was totally different class.
Now what I would like to know is how much of the McLaren speed is due to Ferrari data. Time to get the Banana man back.

I give kudos to Kimi for driving almost injured and managing to get in between the 2 McLarens at least for a while, in a car that had no place being there.

At least FM will be safer than other top drivers with his engine at Spa.

[Flat.tyres]

No.
Ferraris problems are not the drivers, it is the fact that their car is not quick enough, nor is it reliable enough.
Look, I am a fan of Schumacher too, but it is time for some people to get over him and stop being teenage girl-like.
He is retired and there is no reason to compare FM and KR to the best driver ever, it is unfair on them and serves no use. MS is past, lets look towards the future now.
The current situation is that the McLaren is a superior car compared to the Ferrari and they never seem to be off form, unlike Ferrari. Just look at various qualifying sessions and a few races of this year to see how badly Ferraris have struggled.

Monza was a really really disgraceful race for Ferrari. Problems for Kimi in practises, and the suspension problem for both FM and KR in the race (apparently Ferrari told KR to stop taking some curbs after FM retired). McLaren was totally different class.
Now what I would like to know is how much of the McLaren speed is due to Ferrari data. Time to get the Banana man back.

I give kudos to Kimi for driving almost injured and managing to get in between the 2 McLarens at least for a while, in a car that had no place being there.

At least FM will be safer than other top drivers with his engine at Spa.

This is embarrassing but I have to agree with you :p :

Ferrari had the better package at the beginning of the season (in my opinion ;) ) but have grenaded since then. It seems that they have spent all their energy singe Stepneygate on the courts and in the sand while it seems to have spurned McLaren on. They just seem to have absorbed all the energy and channelled it into positive focus.

F1 needs strong competition. I don't want to see a 2008 with McLaren dominating the championship but I don't think BMW will quite be there and if Ferrari don't pull their finger out, they might be scrapping for 3rd. That would be a great shame and bad for the sport.

[ioan]

The current situation is that the McLaren is a superior car compared to the Ferrari and they never seem to be off form, unlike Ferrari. Just look at various qualifying sessions and a few races of this year to see how badly Ferraris have struggled.

And? That means they have no blame whatsoever to take?

A modern F1 Championship is not just about being able to drive very fast in the fastest car, it's also about developing the car faster than your opposition, and strangely enough, in the last decade, Ferrari always managed to have the best development pace and even if they were a bit slower at the start of the season they did catch up by the end and most of the time they were the fastest when it mattered.
This year they started with the fastest car, but by Monaco they were not the fastest ones anymore.

And everyone has his hare of blame in this, even the drivers because they are the ones testing the car in an attempt to analyze what the engineers did come up with and to find out the right direction of development.

[Garry Walker]

This is embarrassing but I have to agree with you :p :

Ferrari had the better package at the beginning of the season (in my opinion ;) ) but have grenaded since then. It seems that they have spent all their energy singe Stepneygate on the courts and in the sand while it seems to have spurned McLaren on. They just seem to have absorbed all the energy and channelled it into positive focus.

F1 needs strong competition. I don't want to see a 2008 with McLaren dominating the championship but I don't think BMW will quite be there and if Ferrari don't pull their finger out, they might be scrapping for 3rd. That would be a great shame and bad for the sport.

I think Ferraris problem seem to be they need perfect conditions and tracks to shine, whereas McLaren is the exact opposite. When Ferrari is on a track the car suits, they are unbeatable, but that has really been the case in only around 3 races (id say Melbourne, spain and Magny-cours). In some races they suffer greatly, take Canada, monaco, Hungary and Monza for example.
Not enough consistency. The fault of the long-wheelbase?

[Ian McC]

And? That means they have no blame whatsoever to take?


Certainly not for failures of parts of the car, which has been a major problem for Ferrari this year.

[Garry Walker]

And? That means they have no blame whatsoever to take?

A modern F1 Championship is not just about being able to drive very fast in the fastest car, it's also about developing the car faster than your opposition, and strangely enough, in the last decade, Ferrari always managed to have the best development pace and even if they were a bit slower at the start of the season they did catch up by the end and most of the time they were the fastest when it mattered.

1) I dont agree with your view about Ferrari having the best developing rate during the season. It wasnt the case in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005. Although in those years it was the tyre-war that confused many things.



This year they started with the fastest car, but by Monaco they were not the fastest ones anymore. and by Silverstone they were the fastest again, please do not make such weak arguments.
This year is all about one car suiting one track more or less than the other car.
There is also less testing this year than before, but in any case the development rate during the season has nothing to do with drivers testing skills, refer to Ross Brawns quotes about that. It is also so that some cars are more maxed out before the season starts than others, so it could be that one car has a lot of development potential, whereas some other car has much less of it.



And everyone has his hare of blame in this, even the drivers because they are the ones testing the car in an attempt to analyze what the engineers did come up with and to find out the right direction of development.
No, as I showed in my last paragraph.

[ioan]

1) I dont agree with your view about Ferrari having the best developing rate during the season. It wasnt the case in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005.

In 2005, as per Brawn the car's design was fundamentally flawed, thus there was no chance to improve it by much.

In 2004 they won the Championship with ease and after that there was no need to develop anything as the regulations for 2005 were pretty different from the ones in 2004. But before halting the development they made sure they win.

In 2003 they didn't start well and they had to push hard to get up to Williams and McLaren's pace at the end of the year to defend their titles. So I don't see where didn't they develop the car faster than the others.

For 2001 my memories aren't that good anymore so I can't comment on it.

If you think however that a team can develop a good car without the drivers giving quality feedback from testing than you may believe that.
I have a different opinion on the matter however.

[ioan]

Certainly not for failures of parts of the car, which has been a major problem for Ferrari this year.

Who blamed them for the failures (unless you are talking about Kimi's suspension problems in Monaco!) ?
I blame them for the lack of speed on a track where they should have been the fastest if we go by their form on faster tracks this season.

[janneppi]

Who said there is need to pampering anyone?

You did, :D
Altough not in those exact words:

I would just say that the team isn't motivated by the drivers to do a much better work, and that is sad, as we all know that they can do better.Motivating mechanics isn't the drivers task.


But it is clear that the direction the drivers are giving to the developments is not right.
The engineers are those who work day and night to improve those cars, but they do need correct feedback or else it's all in vain.
The engineers are the same ones, but the driver that used to give them the best feedback for a decade is not there anymore. So the 2 drivers they have now better improve the way they do their jobs.

I'd like some links where Ferrari drivers are critized for in accurate feedback. As far as I've heard, at least concerning Kimi it's the exact opposite.

[ioan]

I'd like some links where Ferrari drivers are critized for in accurate feedback. As far as I've heard, at least concerning Kimi it's the exact opposite.

Ferrari never criticizes their drivers publicly.

[jens]

Oh! you think ramming AD's Aguri was impressive?
I can't wait for poor ole Ant who's already at a disadvantage, racing a car that hasn't been mauled by a flaming rookie, fisicarless or a damn Groundhog! The 'impressive Vettel' smashed Ant's defuser to bits and damaged one of his dampers! Without this he would have challenged Wurz Williams for position.

Oh. Okay, sorry then. :) I didn't notice that episode and who was responsible in that collision. But hopefully that "flaming rookie" will have more experience in the future. ;)


I think Ferraris problem seem to be they need perfect conditions and tracks to shine, whereas McLaren is the exact opposite. When Ferrari is on a track the car suits, they are unbeatable, but that has really been the case in only around 3 races (id say Melbourne, spain and Magny-cours). In some races they suffer greatly, take Canada, monaco, Hungary and Monza for example.
Not enough consistency. The fault of the long-wheelbase?

Actually that longer wheelbase affects Ferrari's performances badly only on slower circuits (Monaco, Hungary), but McLaren is better also on fast circuits (Monza, Montreal, also Indianapolis as the examples) as their engine works better on lover revs. Therefore thanks to the rev-limiter Mercedes has gained more than any other engine manufacturer. Ferrari, however, has better aero and they tend to be faster on "medium circuits" with several fast corners.

All in all both Ferrari and McLaren have their strong circuits and not-so-strong circuits, but McLaren has had better reliablity, which has also given them the championship lead. Spa, Shanghai, Interlagos and maybe Fuji should suit Ferrari, so we'll see... but it's hard to catch McLarens anyway especially with their current (un)reliability - of course in case McLarens won't be penalized. :p :

[Ranger]

Ferrari were still having handfuls of mechanical retirements per season as late as 2001, so I don't see how driver input has to do with reliability (never have, actually). Fact is, Ferrari built a radical new car this year, and whilst in some races it has paid off, but in others it hasn't, illustrated by several technical glitches for both drivers, resulting in handfuls of points lost each time.

[janneppi]

Monza was a really really disgraceful race for Ferrari. Problems for Kimi in practises, and the suspension problem for both FM and KR in the race (apparently Ferrari told KR to stop taking some curbs after FM retired). McLaren was totally different class.

Makes me wonder if Kimi's off in free practice was really due to a braking in a rut, or did he suffer a rear suspension problems there as well? It would look about the same in television.

[Flat.tyres]

Makes me wonder if Kimi's off in free practice was really due to a braking in a rut, or did he suffer a rear suspension problems there as well? It would look about the same in television.

That bump never has anyone off these days. OK, in the old days with no TC etc, then sometimes a driver might crab a wheel on it and have a bit of a moment but these days it's unheard of. You just drive through it and rely on the SW to keep you in line.

I agree that there must have been some issue that unsettled the car although Ferrari deny it. Was there a problem with the Rear suspension caused by going over the curbs. Was there a mounting issue which was the Massa failure? I know that Kimi nursed the car to the end missing anything remotly looking like a curb.