If Marcus retires, who will fight?

[duff]

OK so the Latvala thread got me thinking.
There are a few guys who in the next 2 or 3 years will be fighting for the win and even the championship, but who will be fighting with Seb next year if Marcus retires? Mikko has done well this year, but he hasn't shown that he can match Seb everywhere. Sometimes he is far off the winning pace.

So what's the best case scenario for an interesting championship in 2008?
For me I guess it’s that either Subaru steps up and starts winning, or that Petter goes to Ford. I don't think he's lost all his speed...

[RallyCat909]

OK so the Latvala thread got me thinking.
There are a few guys who in the next 2 or 3 years will be fighting for the win and even the championship, but who will be fighting with Seb next year if Marcus retires? Mikko has done well this year, but he hasn't shown that he can match Seb everywhere. Sometimes he is far off the winning pace.

So what's the best case scenario for an interesting championship in 2008?
For me I guess it’s that either Subaru steps up and starts winning, or that Petter goes to Ford. I don't think he's lost all his speed...


Petters not slow, hes distracted and discouraged. He needs to get out of the mess that is SWRT at the moment.

[Langdale Forest]

If Gronholm retires next year Hirvonen would probably win rallys like Finland where he came 2nd, ahead of Loeb this year.

[N.O.T]

None ....for at least 2 years... for some wins maybe in specific events that require experience...by the way who challenges Loeb the last 3 years.... Only Marcus manages to challenge him because Loeb made mistakes and Marcus is super efficient which is a first for him (2002 also but the competition was lower)...

Even if Marcus stays Loeb will dominate once more......NZ is an event very close to finland and Marcus won it by nothing....

[GigiGalliNo1]

I think Mikko and and and and and whats his name.... Loeb will fight really well. Mikko will learn and really catch up to speed to Loeb! I see Mikko as a future champ... Perhaps see Duval back next year with some wins too. Petter.... i'm hoping he will change.....teams or the 08' car will be good. Better not have any parts of the 05 to 07' parts in it! haha

[AlfaWRC]

Miiikkkkoooooo!!!!

[Roy]

Miiikkkkoooooo!!!!

Only in Finland so far. Mikko is good and will be runner up, but he missed a lot compare to Loeb.
I think in the future (2009) Atko (nice nickname), Mikko, and if Latvala learn a lot these three drivers can battle Loeb. Sordo must be improved on gravel.

Marcus, please stay for a while!

[A.F.F.]

Short term.... nobody ( unless Subaru by some miracle got their act together )

Long term... eventually there will be Hirvonen, Latvala, Sordo and Atkinson. (Not in particular order ;) )

[MJW]

Petter definately has the speed - he needs to get the package, whether that comes from a Focus 07, C4 or maybe even a Subaru mid 08...........

[mdesign]

Sordo and Duval could well put some pressure on Loeb on tarmac events. On the loose Mikko could do some damage on some events (Finland...). But, without Gronholm, Loeb might even win all events :(

[Corny]

Sordo vs Loeb on tarmac
and on the fast gravel events Hirvonen vs Loeb

[Lalo]

If Marcus retires by the end of this season, he's definitly gonna win the cup next year. Maybe the next one Hirvonen can fight against him for the championship.
If Subaru solve every problem they have with the new 2008-spec Impreza, I'm sure Petter can fight very hard!

[jso1985]

If Marcus retires by the end of this season, he's definitly gonna win the cup next year.

:eek: retired and winning the cup at the same time? :eek: :p :

now seriously if he retires, unless Subaru gets their act together(not probable IMO), Loeb will win the WDC easily, Hirvonen can only beat him in Sweden and Finland, and Sordo on a good day might beat him in tarmac, the rest of the season will be a walkover for Seb

[Koz]

In 2004 and some 2005, alot of people were saying that Marcus has lost it and not only because of the 307, but because of the consistant crashes and such.
And yet, now when Petter is in a similar place, none of you blame the driver... Its all car car car...

At laest in 04, Marcus was either in the top 3-4-5 or retired. He had consistant pace, but crashed alot or his car let him down.

Atkinson has consistantly been faster than Petter...

Niether Markko Martin nor Rovenpera were ever quicker than Marcus in the 307.

Atkinson has consistantly been faster than Petter...

Is it just me, or maybe Petter is really losing his speed and all you just just love him so much and ignore that fact? :p

[tmx]

In 2004 and some 2005, alot of people were saying that Marcus has lost it and not only because of the 307, but because of the consistant crashes and such.
And yet, now when Petter is in a similar place, none of you blame the driver... Its all car car car...

At laest in 04, Marcus was either in the top 3-4-5 or retired. He had consistant pace, but crashed alot or his car let him down.

Atkinson has consistantly been faster than Petter...

Niether Markko Martin nor Rovenpera were ever quicker than Marcus in the 307.

Atkinson has consistantly been faster than Petter...

Is it just me, or maybe Petter is really losing his speed and all you just just love him so much and ignore that fact? :p

i'll make a reply to this post in 12months period. (that is when i will lost hope)

[RallyfanNZ]

I find it a little surprising that Petter has been consistently outclassed by Aitkinson this year. So if the SWRT WRC08 car is as good as SWRT hope then I would expect Aitkinson to challenge Loeb....and Petter to either step up his game or be religated to a points scoring position like Hirvonen. Just my 2c.

[jparker]

Hmm, how about this

Gronholm 2007 champion and he retires, or
Loeb 2007 champion, and Gronholm fights for the title next year one more time?

What's your choice?
I'm not sugesting that's the case (I wouldn't be surprised if Gronholm himself doesn't know for sure what he wants at the moment), but just out of curiosity.
In other words, what will make Marcus stay one more year, loosing the title, or winning it?

[duff]

In other words, what will make Marcus stay one more year, loosing the title, or winning it?

Definitely losing it.
Marcus has had a long and great career, but how you end your career is extremely important as thats the last anyone sees from you. And everyone wants to go out a winner.

[Peugeot206WRC]

Definitely losing it.
Marcus has had a long and great career, but how you end your career is extremely important as thats the last anyone sees from you. And everyone wants to go out a winner.

Kankunen, Makinen, Sainz, Mcrae, Auriol and many more continued several seasons even though they had no chance and some of them knew it.
I dont remember/judge these great drivers for their lasts season at all, its what they achieved at the best I remember the most, for sure.
I think Gronholm have many more years in the WRC where he can be competetive, maybe not all years in the top, but something like Sainz or Mcrae (from their last years).
He will never be slower then Slowson, so even if he was getting slow he wont be embarassing!

[COD]

Hmm, how about this

Gronholm 2007 champion and he retires, or
Loeb 2007 champion, and Gronholm fights for the title next year one more time?

What's your choice?
I'm not sugesting that's the case (I wouldn't be surprised if Gronholm himself doesn't know for sure what he wants at the moment), but just out of curiosity.
In other words, what will make Marcus stay one more year, loosing the title, or winning it?

The problem here is, that Marcus needs to make his decision before he knows if he can win the title or not. If he was allready the champion of 2007, he would retire for sure.

[cut the b.s.]

Marcus has had a long and great career, but how you end your career is extremely important as thats the last anyone sees from you. And everyone wants to go out a winner.

Nonsense

[jacko]

Nonsense

indeed, nothing more to say..

[jacko]

Kankunen, Makinen, Sainz, Mcrae, Auriol and many more continued several seasons even though they had no chance and some of them knew it.
I dont remember/judge these great drivers for their lasts season at all, its what they achieved at the best I remember the most, for sure.
I think Gronholm have many more years in the WRC where he can be competetive, maybe not all years in the top, but something like Sainz or Mcrae (from their last years).
He will never be slower then Slowson, so even if he was getting slow he wont be embarassing!

WELL SAID !!

[Halvard]

Kankunen, Makinen, Sainz, Mcrae, Auriol and many more continued several seasons even though they had no chance and some of them knew it.
I dont remember/judge these great drivers for their lasts season at all, its what they achieved at the best I remember the most, for sure.
I think Gronholm have many more years in the WRC where he can be competetive, maybe not all years in the top, but something like Sainz or Mcrae (from their last years).
He will never be slower then Slowson, so even if he was getting slow he wont be embarassing!

I don`t disagree, but we are talking about our opinion about the driver. I don`t know what Marcus himself thinks, but it would not surprise med that he would like to end his career with a championship. Most of all because he probably allready beforde or early in this season thought about quiting.

[jonkka]

It is quite obvious that things do hang in balance in Marcus' mind.

On one hand it's rather demanding job with lots of travel to places he has already been many times and being away from home a lot, tedious PR assignments and repetitive testing. On top of that, if fight against Loeb is going badly, I can understand that it chips at one's motivation.

Then again, it is a job he apparently likes very much, at this point of his career he is setting new records (I don't know if he cares about those but he sets them anyway, might warm one's mind later) and when fight against Loeb is going his way - which is new feeling after two difficult seasons with 307 - it must feel very good as his reaction at New Zealand proved.

Which of these factors weigh most is known only to Marcus himself and since his decision has delayed, I feel and hope that the yes I will continue side is slowly winning.

[jonkka]

Marcus has had a long and great career, but how you end your career is extremely important as thats the last anyone sees from you.

Who remembers that Alen's last rally was a first-corner disaster? Markku is remembered for entirely different reasons.

[cut the b.s.]

Who remembers that Alen's last rally was a first-corner disaster? Markku is remembered for entirely different reasons.

You did ;-) I dont, what was his last rally?

[Lalo]

Carlos Sainz retired in 2004 after winning in Argentina. The previous year, he was a serious title contender, winning in Turkey, being a usual podium visitor and arriveing to GB behind Loeb and Solberg on points.

Carlos also said that he wanted to retire while he was still succesful, and that's exactly what Marcus wants to do. I believe he should stay until the end of 2008 as minumum, so if he wins the championship this season he'll be the one with the number 1 car and, if he looses, he may have another shot next year, as the definitly last one. Also, that would give time to Hirvonen, Atko and Latvala to develope themselves and become a threat to Sèb's chances of winning the championship again. Of course, his decision is attached with personal and family reasons as well.

Many rally drivers are remembered by they're whole career and now by they're last season. Who cares if Auriol finished his WRC career in a crapy car as the Skoda? He is still considered as one of the bests in the history of the sport and as the second best French rally driver, behind Loeb.

[DonJippo]

You did ;-) I dont, what was his last rally?

Last works entry for Markku was in 1000 Lakes 1993 with Subaru where he went off on the first stage.

[ste898]

I would think without Marcus that Seb would win all the events in 2008 and it will be a case of forgetting the WRC for 1 year!!

[A.F.F.]

It would be highly interesting to read the contract which is ready already, just waititng for Marcus' signature. Like jonkka said, all the travel days away from home, PR which he has never been too keen of, and now lately the amount of testing, they're all bugging him. That was indeed in the interview he gave.

How much do you think Malcom Wilson is willing to come forward, just keep him driving next year? I mean, in terms of all those responsibilities?

Also, one year contract, one year of driving = might be a helluva amount of money. Might be a motivator.

[White Sauron]

Also, one year contract, one year of driving = might be a helluva amount of money. Might be a motivator.

What I really respect in Marcus is that he doesn't run away from the tough finnish taxation system... Like Kimi Raikkonen did moving to Monte Carlo (tight?). I mean how much out of those 5 millions Marcus will getin Finland? About a half I suppose... While being a resident of another country (like Kimi) he could save all his money...

[Priorat]

Rally New Zealand may not have helped Marcus decision:
Long journey away of home on one side, but great rallying and sweet win on the other

[A.F.F.]

What I really respect in Marcus is that he doesn't run away from the tough finnish taxation system... Like Kimi Raikkonen did moving to Monte Carlo (tight?). I mean how much out of those 5 millions Marcus will getin Finland? About a half I suppose... While being a resident of another country (like Kimi) he could save all his money...

Very good and very often forgetten point Frodo :up:

And not just Kimi Räikkönen, I could name half of a dozen other Flying Finns who decided to stay abroad during their active career.

[bt52b]

We most all hope that by Monte, Subaru is on the pace. It's beginning to show signs that they have turned the corner.

[ST205GT4]

I'm not sure how much longer Marcus will drive for, but I have noticed that he doesn't seem as free and happy was he once was at the end of stage interviews. Even when he's winning he seems a lot more reserved or short than he was in his early WRC days with Peugeot.

I remember some of the interviews he gave to Barry Sheene in Rally Oz and his enthusiasm was almost bubbling out of the TV screen. It's a shame to see him so different.

[duff]

Nonsense

Cut the B.S, would you care to elaborate out of respect for a fellow forumer?

My point is that IMO drivers themselves want to go out on a high and not go out on a low. It is a balancing act towards the end of their careers as true championship winning competitiveness in motorsport deteriorates due to age whether the drivers like it or not.

I did not say that it is the last anyone remembers of them, or that it taints their career, simply that it the last anyone sees of them on the stages. And all of these drivers are extremely competitive and therefore want to be winning every time they roll up to a start line.

To say that personal competitiveness is NOT a consideration to top drivers when thinking of their own retirement is "nonsense".

[curry]

I wonder if Malcolm is putting any pressure on Marcus. Consider this.

Malcolm really wants Jari-Matti in the number two seat of Ford (for obvious reasons) but 2008 is one year too early, he needs to learn consistency. So that leaves Malcolm with a dilema for next year if Marcus retires - who does he put in the seat next to Mikko? If he was to sign Petter you can bet it wouldn't be on a one year contract, which means that in 2008 he would have to let Mikko or Jari-Matti go. If I was Malcolm the easiest solution would be to keep Marcus for one more year then replace him with Jari-Matti; maybe I could throw extra cash at him to convince him to stay.

What do you reckon?

Curry

[jonkka]

Malcolm really wants Jari-Matti in the number two seat of Ford (for obvious reasons)

How do you know that? What are those obvious reasons?


If I was Malcolm the easiest solution would be to keep Marcus for one more year then replace him with Jari-Matti; maybe I could throw extra cash at him to convince him to stay.

Malcolm and Ford do need Marcus if they are to have a realistic shot at makes title in 2008, regardless of what other teams do. So it is obvious that unless there is suitable replacement - which there is not - Malcolm will want to keep Marcus driving. Unfortunately, I do not think it all depends on money. Marcus got more than enough (if he would be motivated by money, he'd be living in Monaco) and Ford is not believed to be the richest of the teams (though perhaps Abu Dhabi money has changed that).

[jonkka]

My point is that IMO drivers themselves want to go out on a high and not go out on a low.

To say that personal competitiveness is NOT a consideration to top drivers when thinking of their own retirement is "nonsense".

Evidence points otherwise. There are many drivers that have signed to an under-dog team in the twilight of their career than there are those that bowed out while still on a winning team - or, on one they hoped would be a winning team.

Auriol and Skoda, Kankkunen and Hyundai, McRae and Skoda, Kenneth Eriksson and Skoda, Mikkola and Mazda, Blomqvist and Nissan, Panizzi and Mitsubishi.

Carlos Sainz, Tommi Makinen and Miki Biasion retired from a winning team.

I think it would be wrong to say that all drivers are like this or like that. So, there certainly are drivers that won't drive unless they can believe they can achieve decent result (Rohrl springs to mind). Then there are drivers who simply love what they do and drive just about anything just to get to the stages (Blomqvist being a superb example). Which sort of a driver is Marcus?

I think that much the latter because he did so long privateer career before getting works contract.

[jonkka]

I mean how much out of those 5 millions Marcus will getin Finland? About a half I suppose...

It really depends on what sort of arrangement he has. If it's normal income, the tax is around 55 percent. But if there is a trust, fund or a company, he can get away with much less plus if he is eligible for farming deductions (which I believe is the case), that can shave off significant percentage too.

I too value his decision to stay in Finland but while some active drivers may reside in tax havens like Monaco, most do come back for their retirement. Tommi Makinen has a family farm and employes many in Jyvaskyla, keeping countryside alive. Rovanpera does similar things with his hardware store and Kankkunen tried something of a sort with Flying Finn airlines. So I don't view them as tax refugees, any sensible person would do the same.

[A.F.F.]

Evidence points otherwise. There are many drivers that have signed to an under-dog team in the twilight of their career than there are those that bowed out while still on a winning team - or, on one they hoped would be a winning team.

Auriol and Skoda, Kankkunen and Hyundai, McRae and Skoda, Kenneth Eriksson and Skoda, Mikkola and Mazda, Blomqvist and Nissan, Panizzi and Mitsubishi.

Carlos Sainz, Tommi Makinen and Miki Biasion retired from a winning team.

I think it would be wrong to say that all drivers are like this or like that. So, there certainly are drivers that won't drive unless they can believe they can achieve decent result (Rohrl springs to mind). Then there are drivers who simply love what they do and drive just about anything just to get to the stages (Blomqvist being a superb example). Which sort of a driver is Marcus?

I think that much the latter because he did so long privateer career before getting works contract.

I thought this very same. IMO Marcus drives for the win. Hence, a Rohrl kind of driver. Not because he wouldn't love driving but because he has done his share of "charity" already.

[duff]

Evidence points otherwise. There are many drivers that have signed to an under-dog team in the twilight of their career than there are those that bowed out while still on a winning team - or, on one they hoped would be a winning team.

Auriol and Skoda, Kankkunen and Hyundai, McRae and Skoda, Kenneth Eriksson and Skoda, Mikkola and Mazda, Blomqvist and Nissan, Panizzi and Mitsubishi.

True, but did these drivers choose a under dog team over a winning team? You would have to remember that Auriol, McRae, Erickson, and Panizzi did not choose their time of retirement, they just kind of left out in the cold by their "winning" teams . Sorry I can't talk about Blomqvist or Mikkola I only started following WRC in '97. :)



I think it would be wrong to say that all drivers are like this or like that.


Fair enough, I was generalising and that always gets you in trouble.
But I will make one more generalisation ;) which I think that most people will agree with; that world class drivers are highly motivated, talented and competitive people, and Whether or not that they are driving purely for results or just to have fun on the stages they would rather be on the top step of the podium than anywhere else on the leaderboard.