Who Killed MotoGP?

[MrJan]

Something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. For many years I've been proud to be a fan of MotoGP, I could scoff in the faces of people talking about F1 and it's lack of interest by simply saying 'yeah but did you see the motorbikes?' Races were epic, passing moves audacious and boredom came only when.........well actually it never really materialised because it was so busy over at F1.

Then came 2007. New rules, new bikes, new riders. Rossi looking to regain his crown after being unceremoniously de-throned by someone best described as 'consistent'. All of a sudden I'm in a strange place, these previously amazing bikes are dull, lifeless and depressing. The same bloke wins every week, but not in the climb 6 places in two laps excite-mo way of Vale. No he just outshines everyone from the start. the world champion doesn't know how to ride his bike and the self-styled god of MotoGP is making mistakes, having problems and being completely uninteresting besides a supposed tax scam.

Worst of all I found myself saying something I never thought possible during the race at Misano, something so dreadful that I am ashamed to admit it. Something that previously only resided in the world of Alonso, Schumacher et al.....Several laps in the commentator said that 20 something laps remained and I turned to my father and said "oh god not another 20 laps of this".

it shocked me and quite frankly I want to know who has committed this outrage on the glorious world of MotoGP that has brought it down to the ugly level of tedium that is F1. I don't care if it's tyres, smaller capacity or an act of God himself, the person who has created this unspeakable evil must pay :angryfire :

RANT OVER

[RaikkonenRules]

I agree that Moto GP races aren't what they are used to be. Recently all the riders have just spread further and further apart. Kurtis Roberts even got lapped.

[jim mcglinchey]

Thats a load of spute. For as long as Ive been watching bike racing the objective was to get pole position, get the hole shot and clear off into the distance and let the others fight for the runner up places. It may not be what the fans wantto see ideally but its the way to success.

[patnicholls]

I guess there's nothing like an OTT thread title eh? :p

Well, OK, I grant you that the races at Misano, Brno and Laguna weren't the best we've ever seen.

A few of my thoughts on this thread:

I started watching in 2000; the season opening Africas GP in which Garry McCoy power-slid to victory was my first ever race. For most of that season, there were 19, 20, or 21 bikes on the grid. Not much different to the 19 this year - and don't forget we started with two Ilmors also. And in 2000 there were some really uncompetitive bikes - two Aprilia twins which were nowhere at all except at twisty tracks, the KR bike and no less than five Honda twins which were no match for any four-cylinder bikes. Check the motogp.com results, things were no closer than this year and in many cases rather more spread out.

Admittedly, we have had a couple of seasons of around 23/24 bikes, I'll give you that. But again that's with stuff like the WCMs, the Paton machine or the Pulse bikes in there. It should also be noted that since 2000, the size of the 125cc grid in particular has gone up significantly and 250s are constant-ish. However, I'm in agreement that some more bikes (hopefully competitive ones) on that grid wouldn't go amiss in the main class.

As for the past being more exciting, a few things to consider:

We have had some great years (particularly when Sete was challenging Vale), but then again take a look at 2002 and 2005 when Vale gave the field a thorough spanking from the opening race onwards. With the past, we summarise it in our heads and remember the best bits and great races definitely didn't happen every race despite what we'd like to think - there was definitely the odd boring one in there too. We also get a bit more complacent as we know more about what we're watching, I reckon. Every race can't be a Mugello/Barcelona/Sachsenring epic!

Furthermore, the grids this year have been about the closest ever, which does raise our expectations for the races themselves and is bound to lead to a little disappointment cos we expect to see a 125-style race which is unrealistic.

Then there's the breakdown of what a close race actually involves. In an F1 race, if car and driver are 1% out from the winner on the track over a 90-second lap, they'll be a minute behind at the end of the race - in other words utterly nowhere. In MotoGP we have shorter races obviously, but the same eye-opener still applies. A couple of tenths or half a second difference per lap is a tiny amount when all's said and done when there are so many factors involved. You simply can't manufacture a 'close' race, there's too much that can vary. Also, none of the riders involved are interested in having a close race, they want to get into the lead and run away to have a nice easy afternoon. The powers that be want things to be as close as possible, because if one manufacturer dominates then the others get scared away.

Maybe the 500s were a little more dramatic, but we moved on from them for a number of reasons and there's no going back. As mentioned above, half the field was B-list bikes with no chance of winning except in the wet. Since 2002, Kawasaki and Ducati have come into the fold, which can only be a good thing. Aside from 2000 when Kenny took the title in a year of wet races, Honda kicked everyone's arse for ten years straight.

This year we've had the first Suzuki win in six years, a Rossi win from 11th (Assen), the ushering in of a new superstar, and some great races here and there (Catalunya being the stand-out).

And - what's wrong with domination? Last year we had a close title fight as everyone was busy making errors, having mechanicals and trying their best to lose the title, and people whinged about Nicky winning it. Now we're back in the time of one rider dominating and you're still unhappy! :) A lot of people thought it was boring when Daijiro Kato dominated 250s, and then were forced to feel rightly guilty after his death because they hadn't appreciated his genius until it was too late. I've got no problem with Vale, Casey or anyone dominating - it shows there's someone special at work.

MotoGP dead? If so, the wake's pretty good...

[ArmchairBikeFan]

The trouble is that the rules changed hugely, Ducati and Bridgestone got it exactly right, Stoner turned out to be brilliant, and everybody else was left wondering what the hell hit them.
It looks like Yamaha have pretty much admitted that they were woefully mistaken in how fast they thought they'd have to go, and are now working towards next year. Honda seem like they're still working incrementally to be quick at the end of this year. Suzuki are getting very quick already.
I think that if they keep the exact same rules next year the racing at the front will be much improved, because Honda will have time to make a proper bike, Yamaha a proper engine and Michelin some proper tyres.
Anyway, Toni Elias still overtakes people. He's a little hero!

[The Phantom]

There's a lot of good observations here, from both sides of the fence.

I got into GP in 1992 when I went to Eastern Creek to see Doohan and Beattie take a 1-2. Since then I've never really found it to be boring in any way, even this year - but I'm into the minutia of the whole thing; if the race is a procession then I enjoy looking at the track, the crowds, the pop-up graphics... I guess I'm just easily pleased ;)

It should have been 800s in 2007 and tyres in 2008. Or, tyres in 2007 and don't touch the bikes. Ah well. Look for Suzuki to take it to Stoner before the year is out, and don't forget there's still a titanic battle in WSB this year...

[tha_jackal]

I think this topic is very much an over-reaction.. If you think back to earlier races this year, we have seen some close, intense racing.. Catalunya? Rossi vs Stoner all the way? That was brilliant..

People just seem to have short memories.. F1 can only ever dream to be as entertaining as MotoGP at the moment.. We were treated last year to several multiple bike battles for wins, but that will come again as all the bikes level off and catch up to Ducati at the front.. Bring on the rest of 07 and definately 08!! :up: :D

Oh and screw F1, stupid parade crap that is.. At least in MotoGP when you see footage of riders battling down the order you can see some passing going on.. F1, everyone follows and passes in the pit lane.. Ill pass on that ****e thanks.. :laugh:

[Gibbsy]

If motogp is in a lull, and I disagree that it is, then the blame can be laid at the foot of Yamaha, Honda and Michelin. It is their job to take the rules of the competition as they are and compete for the world title. Currently you'd have to argue that they aren't doing thier job.

[Ranger]

I agree that Moto GP races aren't what they are used to be. Recently all the riders have just spread further and further apart. Kurtis Roberts even got lapped.

In the 1980's and for the three decades before, you regularly saw half the field lapped, sometimes more than once.

Yes, the last three races have been boring, barely enough to claim someone has killed MotoGP.

[ChrisS]

it's not dead, it's, it's restin'! Remarkable series, the MotoGP ;)

[Roby44]

@ Miguel..

Colin Edwards had a rather interesting interview on the Beeb today. He said that if he was a fan he's watch the first couple of laps of a race and then see if anything else was on TV. He wants the close racing there used to be. He also had a few comments about the tyre rule...even suggesting that Moto GP goes to one tyre manufacturer like SBK. Says he's looking forward to being in a team with Toseland though. http://arf2.easyfreeforum.com/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

The BBC are going to put the full interview on the internet some time this week.



So its not only us fans thinking that.... :s mokin:

[Roby44]

In the 1980's and for the three decades before, you regularly saw half the field lapped, sometimes more than once.

Yes, the last three races have been boring, barely enough to claim someone has killed MotoGP.

Severly wounded MotoGP then....

Made it into F1 on 2 wheels..

[MrJan]

Okay so saying that the sport is dead is a bit on the harsh side but it's definately not as brilliant. I've only been watching for 4 or 5 years but every single one has been great. I don't care if the championship is won by a country mile or even each race. What has made it exciting is the battles down through the field. This season it doesn't seem to have been happening.

Even Barca was dull for 15 laps while Rossi just sat behind Casey (from what I remember anyway) and that seemed to be the only battle on the track. Yes the last laps were great but still not on the scale of Mugello last season.

I know that the aim of every rider and team out there is just to win easily, not make a show. It's the same in every sport. In no way do I even remotely care if the same bloke wins every week (I can't over state this enough), in fact I loved watching Rossi win because it was, with the exception of 2 or 3 races a year, one hell of a spectacle. This year the spark isn't quite there. It's still great but not as good as I've become accustomed to in the last 5 years.

[Corny]

the answer on this question is simple and short:
Casey Stoner, he's simply too fast for everyone.. :D

[jonny hurlock]

@ Miguel..

Colin Edwards had a rather interesting interview on the Beeb today. He said that if he was a fan he's watch the first couple of laps of a race and then see if anything else was on TV. He wants the close racing there used to be. He also had a few comments about the tyre rule...even suggesting that Moto GP goes to one tyre manufacturer like SBK.

I don't think its a tyre war its the problem, michelin just had a complete poor season. when michelin and bridgestone are competive there are not a lot of differences


the answer on this question is simple and short:
Casey Stoner, he's simply too fast for everyone.. :D

the problem has not been casey this season, Rossi had three dominant seasons 2002,2003 and 2005 on winning races all the time, never had a problem on that, can't blame him for the winning this season. these have been the problems this season;

1. Michelin have been POOR this season do doubt about that

2. Honda have been the Poorist bike this season except KR bike thats another story

3. Rossi has a poor season, I think his been under a few ladders,

4. you might to look at Traction Control, back in 2002 it was 80% driver 20% bike, this season its been 65% bike and 35% driver, if they reduce or ban TC you will be seeing better races IMO

[ShiftingGears]

1. Reducing the power of the bikes - more power than grip makes motorsport more spectacular, and trying to curb lap speeds by cutting engine capacity rarely works. Smart people, these engineers :D

2. Not removing TC - it hasn't made motorsport better at all. They should get rid of it.

Not having a tight field is fine - not all manufacturers get it right. So long as the rider makes the difference, and that there is opportunities to pass. Personally I like tracks with flow and undulations, as they tend to reward the best riders with more of a time advantage if they get the corners right, as they can carry the speed onto the next corners. And several tracks on the calendar don't do this.

[NinjaMaster]

And we have a winner for most panicked thread of the year.

Serisously, 2007 mightn't go down as the most classic battle of all time but if the series was doomed every time there was a runaway winner, it wouldn't still be here today. I see 2002, the year of the change to MotoGP, has clearly been forgotten. Rossi and Honda streeted the field but after that the series picked up. This year is a reflection of that where Ducati and Bridgestone have caught the others napping and Stoner has taken advantage of that by rubbing the rest of the fields collective noses in it. You only have to look at history to tell you next year will be better. Honda hate to lose and have been embarassed this year, Michelin the same. Next year the Japanese manufacturers and Michelin know what they need to do to be competitive and they will be up to the task.

[mx311]

MotoGP isn't dead, it's just not quite as exciting as it was last year. As a few people have pointed out some of the Rossi years were dull and the mid-nineties (the Doohan era) were terrible, unless you were personally Mick Doohan. 800cc was a mistake and everyone knew it but still we progressed, higher corner speeds would always hurt racing but noone listened. Still, it won't last forever, once Yamaha, Honda and Michelin get their acts together it will be closer at the front (not to take anything away from Ducati, Bridgestone or Casey Stoner who have got it 100% right).

For cryin' out loud...........the manufacturers had the 800cc requirement dumped on them, spent megabucks complying, are working their guts' out and have only been racing them for about 5 bloody months yet some people seem never to be satisfied.
A 20% reduction in engine capacity and they still have the bikes lapping at similar times on most tracks to the times of the former 1000cc race bikes.
Critics.......bite ya bums!

[MrJan]

And we have a winner for most panicked thread of the year.

Serisously, 2007 mightn't go down as the most classic battle of all time but if the series was doomed every time there was a runaway winner, it wouldn't still be here today. I see 2002, the year of the change to MotoGP, has clearly been forgotten. Rossi and Honda streeted the field but after that the series picked up.

OK so the thread title is a bit panicky but I'm panicked because MotoGP was the best thing I watched. It was full of excitement most weeks.

Also I have already mentioned above that I don't care if someone dominates if it's exciting (Rossi used to have terrible starts and fight his way through) but Stoner is so much quicker this year that most races see him get a flying start and stay ahead, then comes Rossi and everyone else chasing Casey's dust.

As for forgetting 2002 I think I said that I've only been watching for 4 or 5 years so it's quite likely that it's one of the seasons that I missed out on.

I have faith that the sport will soon pick up again but surely even the most ardent fan has to admit that they haven't been as interested in this season as in recent years.

[Roby44]

At least, for the moment anyway, there are the 125 and 250 races to watch.

Now those young guys get cracking!!

[fatman]

I have faith that the sport will soon pick up again but surely even the most ardent fan has to admit that they haven't been as interested in this season as in recent years.

While I wont say that every race this year has been packed full of head to head races, I don't think anyone can say it isn't interesting.

If it wasn't interesting anymore none of you would be posting in this forum.

The last couple of races were less exciting but there have still been plenty of great races this season. I'll be surprised if anyone runs away with it at Estoril.

[ShiftingGears]

For cryin' out loud...........the manufacturers had the 800cc requirement dumped on them, spent megabucks complying, are working their guts' out and have only been racing them for about 5 bloody months yet some people seem never to be satisfied.
A 20% reduction in engine capacity and they still have the bikes lapping at similar times on most tracks to the times of the former 1000cc race bikes.
Critics.......bite ya bums!

No-ones critisising the manufacturers for producing the fastest bikes within the regulations.

[The Phantom]

I still think it's funny that Honda pushed for the 800cc rules, and then built a bike slower than everyone except Illmor!!! ;)

[NinjaMaster]

OK so the thread title is a bit panicky but I'm panicked because MotoGP was the best thing I watched. It was full of excitement most weeks.

Also I have already mentioned above that I don't care if someone dominates if it's exciting (Rossi used to have terrible starts and fight his way through) but Stoner is so much quicker this year that most races see him get a flying start and stay ahead, then comes Rossi and everyone else chasing Casey's dust.

As for forgetting 2002 I think I said that I've only been watching for 4 or 5 years so it's quite likely that it's one of the seasons that I missed out on.

I have faith that the sport will soon pick up again but surely even the most ardent fan has to admit that they haven't been as interested in this season as in recent years.
It's one season of change, nothing to worry about. Not every season is an absolute classic and I think it's a bit much to expect it will. As I said, the powers of Honda, Yamaha and Michelin won't be down for long and next year will see a return to the thrill-a-minute racing we have become accustomed to.

[leopard]

Frankly speaking, motogp is no longer bringing me the same passion as the time of rivalries of Rossi vs Biaggi and Sete. Lorenzo may take motogp the glory back as the most interesting series.

As the result of this, Suzuki seems to be an alternative likable team in case they retain Hopkins and hire new name like Dovisioso, but without Hopkins next season they may have less character, and therefore I seriously consider to change my bike and its attribute to# 3 Corona Alstare :p :

[ArmchairBikeFan]

It's one season of change, nothing to worry about. Not every season is an absolute classic and I think it's a bit much to expect it will. As I said, the powers of Honda, Yamaha and Michelin won't be down for long and next year will see a return to the thrill-a-minute racing we have become accustomed to.

I think so. It'll also be interesting to see Melandri on the Duke racing against Stoner. I'm sure he'll be a lot faster than Capirossi has been, and the team will love him 'cos he's Italian and hard as nails. Like a younger Capirossi in fact. :)

[leopard]

I think so. It'll also be interesting to see Melandri on the Duke racing against Stoner. I'm sure he'll be a lot faster than Capirossi has been, and the team will love him 'cos he's Italian and hard as nails. Like a younger Capirossi in fact. :)
On the other word, poor choice made by Suzuki for having the older Capirossi :D

[ChrisS]

I'm sure Honda Yamaha and michelin will make a comeback by next year

“The other manufactures do not know why they race. They race because they understand the conviction of Honda and they follow the Honda and sometimes they even pass, but when they pass they cannot lead because they have no vision. Then Honda passes again and they are grateful again to follow because they know Honda sees the light of discovery that they cannot see.”
Yoichi Oguma (now retired) HRC Boss

I found that quote a few years ago in an article. Oguma usually spoke to the press with the help of an HRC translator that wasn't really translating what he was saying but gave "politically correct" comments to the press

The above quote was from when Oguma had to use a real translator and I think it shows Honda's true racing mentality and company culture

[ChrisS]

Well they may have not killed motogp but if these proposed changes to 250s are true then you cant accuse them for not trying

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2007/september/sep10-16/sep1207motogprulesfor600ccmotogpclassdrawnup/

600cc rev limited production engines on 155kg prototype chassis

just for comparison, the CBR600RR sport bike (not the race bike) weights 155kg, so they basically want to race Supersport

Also 600cc production engines? please show me the 600cc engines Aprilia and KTM (the 2 that are keeping 125 and 250 alive) have in their lineups.

[MrJan]

Well they may be killing 250 but Estoril was a great race. That's what I was expecting this season, Pedrosa, Rossi and Stoner at the front really battling it out. Just built myself up too much for an excellent season and felt jipped when it didn't deliver. Let's hope the remaining races will be as good :D

[Ranger]

I agree, great race that was. :up: :D

[tha_jackal]

125s at Estoril was the pick of the bunch IMO, Pol Espargaro is a star of the future, without a doubt.. Actually, all three races were pretty damn good, Estoril makes for good racing, even if it is a bit of a nothing track..

[The Phantom]

600cc support for MotoGP is a joke!

Make 'em 250 and 400cc 4-strokes - it's worked a treat in MX.

Good to see MotoGP is not dead after all :) Can't wait for Motegi.

Aussie vs Italian! Japan vs Italy!! Vegemite vs garlic!!! :)

[AndyRAC]

600cc support for MotoGP is a joke!

Make 'em 250 and 400cc 4-strokes - it's worked a treat in MX.

Good to see MotoGP is not dead after all :) Can't wait for Motegi.

Aussie vs Italian! Japan vs Italy!! Vegemite vs garlic!!! :)

I can't understand their proposals, just use the example in MXGP and Enduro; 250 F & 450 F, both are FIM Championships. I'd still let 2 strokes in as the above championships do.

[NinjaMaster]

Unfortunately the tiddler classes are in a real dilemma. 4-stroke technology is the future, especially with Honda ending their 2-banger program, but the costs are so much greater. So MotoGP is caught in the predicament of having to move forward but keep things affordable. That's where the 600's come in. I don't agree with the concept but I understand it. No-one makes 400's so there are much higher development costs on already stretched budgets versus hot-rodding existing 600cc engines in special racing chassis which would be much cheaper. Hopefully a 400/450cc formula can be arranged that can be cost effective, high level and hopefully remain competitive because if it comes to a question of deep pockets then Honda has everyone covered.

[ChrisS]

No-one makes 400's so there are much higher development costs on already stretched budgets versus hot-rodding existing 600cc engines in special racing chassis which would be much cheaper.

its cheaper if you have a 600cc engine to mod, Honda does but Aprilia and KTM dont so the costs for them will be the same

[ArmchairBikeFan]

Well, why not just make it an Aprilia 250 cup? KTM are never going to be supplying more than about 2-4 bikes anyway. The Japanese don't want anything to do with 2-strokes any more.
The only way to make it a proper world championship with the Japanese involved is to have some kind of 4-strokes.
Turning it into WSSGP seems daft, though.

[JETFX...]

Something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. For many years I've been proud to be a fan of MotoGP, I could scoff in the faces of people talking about F1 and it's lack of interest by simply saying 'yeah but did you see the motorbikes?' Races were epic, passing moves audacious and boredom came only when.........well actually it never really materialised because it was so busy over at F1.

Then came 2007. New rules, new bikes, new riders. Rossi looking to regain his crown after being unceremoniously de-throned by someone best described as 'consistent'. All of a sudden I'm in a strange place, these previously amazing bikes are dull, lifeless and depressing. The same bloke wins every week, but not in the climb 6 places in two laps excite-mo way of Vale. No he just outshines everyone from the start. the world champion doesn't know how to ride his bike and the self-styled god of MotoGP is making mistakes, having problems and being completely uninteresting besides a supposed tax scam.

Worst of all I found myself saying something I never thought possible during the race at Misano, something so dreadful that I am ashamed to admit it. Something that previously only resided in the world of Alonso, Schumacher et al.....Several laps in the commentator said that 20 something laps remained and I turned to my father and said "oh god not another 20 laps of this".

it shocked me and quite frankly I want to know who has committed this outrage on the glorious world of MotoGP that has brought it down to the ugly level of tedium that is F1. I don't care if it's tyres, smaller capacity or an act of God himself, the person who has created this unspeakable evil must pay :angryfire :

RANT OVER

Oh no not another Krusty fan having a cry, boo hoo bring in control tyres its not fair boring is listening to winging when clown boy looses a few races :bigcry:

[ChrisS]

Oh no not another Krusty fan having a cry, boo hoo bring in control tyres its not fair boring is listening to winging when clown boy looses a few races :bigcry:

what does Adam Ferguson have to do with this :confused: :p

[NinjaMaster]

what does Adam Ferguson have to do with this :confused: :p
That's what I wondered!

[JETFX...]

That's what I wondered!


'Krusty the Clown'= Rossi...
sorry I guess I should of been clearer on that, and please dont tell me you cant see the resemblance ;)