Freedom of Speech?

[Eki]

I don't think he's the first one who suspects that some Jews are exploiting the Holocaust, and I don't think he's wrong:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295230,00.html


Controversial Professor Plans to Risk Arrest After University Cancels His Classes

Thursday, August 30, 2007

By Melissa Drosjack

AP

Norman Finkelstein

CHICAGO — A professor whose views on the Holocaust irked critics plans to risk arrest by showing up on the first day of classes next week at DePaul University after officials canceled his courses, took away his office and put him on leave.

The private Chicago Catholic university recently informed professor Norman Finkelstein that his three courses were canceled after a dispute over tenure that drew charges of anti-Semitism against him.

Critics find issue with Finkelstein, the son of Holocaust survivors, who believes that some Jews have exploited the Holocaust. Finkelstein is the author of five books, including "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering."

[Daniel]

I wholeheartedly agree with you there Eki. It's very uncool to say that Jewish people milk the holocaust but they bloody well do! :mark:

[BDunnell]

It's very uncool to say that Jewish people milk the holocaust but they bloody well do! :mark:

I think the word 'some' ought to be included in that statement.

[Daniel]

my apologies. Yes i should have said some.

[Firstgear]

I think the word 'some' ought to be included in that statement.


Don't read 'Jewish' as 'all Jewish', and you won't need 'some'.

[Daniel]

no he's right. I should have said some.

[Eki]

Don't read 'Jewish' as 'all Jewish', and you won't need 'some'.
The problem is that people tend to generalize. For example, if I criticize the Israeli Defense Force for killing Lebanese civilians or UN peace keepers, I'm accused of being anti-Semite or a Nazi, and if I criticize the US military for raping and murdering Iraqi civilians, I'm accused of being anti-American, a Saddamite, a terrorist supporter, liberal or a leftist.

[Breeze]

The problem is that people tend to generalize. For example, if I criticize the Israeli Defense Force for killing Lebanese civilians or UN peace keepers, I'm accused of being anti-Semite or a Nazi, and if I criticize the US military for raping and murdering Iraqi civilians, I'm accused of being anti-American, a Saddamite, a terrorist supporter, liberal or a leftist.

If you don't want to be so labeled, stop commiting the logical fallacy of arguing from the specific to the general. Your detractors here, myself included, will be less likely to draw the larger conclusion.

[Drew]

I'm shocked at this. I can't believe what I'm reading, my grandad died at Auschwitz and for this?

























Wait for it...



















The poor sod fell out the guard tower.

[BDunnell]

I loved the story Stephen Fry told on TV some years ago about Disney. Apparently, quite a lot of workers at Disney World had started referring to the place as 'Mouseschwitz'. A memo went round, saying that under no circumstances must Disney employees ever refer to Disney World as 'Mouseschwitz'. So, they started calling it 'Duckau' instead.

[Hondo]

The problem is that people tend to generalize. For example, if I criticize the Israeli Defense Force for killing Lebanese civilians or UN peace keepers, I'm accused of being anti-Semite or a Nazi, and if I criticize the US military for raping and murdering Iraqi civilians, I'm accused of being anti-American, a Saddamite, a terrorist supporter, liberal or a leftist.

I would tend to believe the holocaust has been exploited. I see what you're saying but the holocaust is easier to market. The average western European and American really can't indentify with middle eastern cultures. But those caught up in The Final Solution dressed like us, lived among us, worked at jobs with us, dined with us, and lived life in general with us. A victim like that is easy to exploit and market.

Whats ironic is a professor losing his job over stating his belief that the holocaust has been exploited, while he, himself has written 5 (?) books on the subject himself. Does he give those books away? Are the profits, his and the publisher's donated to some survivors fund, or have they made money off these books?

I continue to wonder why investigating the holocaust is such a taboo subject in so many countries. It seems to have it's own "Odessa" organization to preserve it's legend.

[Rollo]

Logically the most Anti-Semitic groups of people are the Arabs and the Jews. Since the Arabs claim to be decended from Ishmael and therefore Abraham, like the Jews claim to be decended from Israel and therefore also Abraham, any conflict between them is Anti-Semitic because they're all decended from Shem.

[tinchote]

It is really scary that a university suspends a prof for his opinions, particularly when it looks like he has not been defending those positions in class.

[Hondo]

It is really scary that a university suspends a prof for his opinions, particularly when it looks like he has not been defending those positions in class.

You are sooooooo right. Makes you wonder how much of it goes on that we don't hear about.

[Mark in Oshawa]

AS much as I would like to differ with this guy on the over using of the Holocaust to protect Jews, I defend his right to say it. If he lost a job over it, so much for the attitudes of academic freedom. Then again, I will say that people have been fired for less inflamatory ideas, but they too were not politically correct.

AS for you Eki, your defense of the indefensible at times is more than just an academic argument....you go out of your way to make inflamtory arguments, and then hide behind this attitude you are attacking the actions of a few, and not the people as a whole.....it gets kinda old.

[Tomi]

It is really scary that a university suspends a prof for his opinions, particularly when it looks like he has not been defending those positions in class.

not really so scary, taking up issues like this is sensitive i think only in us and israel.

[Eki]

not really so scary, taking up issues like this is sensitive i think only in us and israel.
Also in Germany and Austria, as far as I know.

[Tomi]

Also in Germany and Austria, as far as I know.

Yes true, but for different reasons, there it is about somekind of collective guilt about the past, not a twisted view of reality.
Anyway, I dont think they would suspend any professor for a thing like this.

[Drew]

Also in Germany and Austria, as far as I know.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6263103.stm

It's illegal to deny the holocaust in:

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia

Within the EU :)

[Tomi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6263103.stm

It's illegal to deny the holocaust in:

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia

Within the EU :)

yes quite many countries, but on theother hand whats the point to deny it did happen.

[Drew]

yes quite many countries, but on theother hand whats the point to deny it did happen.

What's the point of ever having an opinion?

[Tomi]

The opinion is normally built on somekind of facts, I belive it's difficult to find any that speaks for that the holocaust did not happen.

[Drew]

The opinion is normally built on somekind of facts, I belive it's difficult to find any that speaks for that the holocaust did not happen.

Maybe they have facts? I dunno, I've never tried to research however I wouldn't go as far as saying that it never happened :)

I believe things have to be constantly challenged. If holocaust deniers could find evidence to prove that it never happened, then they should challenge the beliefs that people have.

[Tomi]

Maybe they have facts? I dunno, I've never tried to research however I wouldn't go as far as saying that it never happened :)

I believe things have to be constantly challenged. If holocaust deniers could find evidence to prove that it never happened, then they should challenge the beliefs that people have.

I have been to 2 different consentration camps (Stutthof and Auswitch) so it can be difficult to convince me that there has not been any holocaust.

[NoFender]

I'd say the holocaust happened, and we should learn from it. The one thing we should learn, is nobody is better than any one person, nor should they be treated differently than anyone else, in any circumstance. Unless of course we're speaking of somebody physically challenged, or elderly. Race,religion,demographic is all for yourself, nobody else should have to deal with your problems.

[Eki]

I have been to 2 different consentration camps (Stutthof and Auswitch)
Wow, and you still survived!

[Tomi]

Wow, and you still survived!

yep, i was on the better side of the fence :)

[race aficionado]

I got this from a friend that is of jewish faith.
He tends to send me these chain e-mails whenever issues like this one are raised
Is this for real?




Subject: A Disgrace

shame........
äòáøä: ìà ðùëç!! - We'll never forget





Disgrace for England !
This week in England every memorial of the holocaust has been removed from the schools study programs, arguing that it hurts the Muslim population that denies the holocaust .
That is a sign of an upcoming worldwide disaster, terrifying evidence of how easily countries can give in to anti-Semitism .
It has been more than 60 years since the end of World War 2 in Europe as England didn't lift a finger to save the Jews that were Butchered by the Germans and now they are Boycoting Israel Academy and remooving the holocaust from the schools study p rograms. .
This email has been sent in order to create a chain of memory for those 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1900 catholic priests, that have been murdered, raped, burnt, starved to death, and humiliated by the Nazis .
Now, more than ever, considering the efforts of Iran and others ' denying the Holocaust, it is most crucial to do whatever it takes to ensure that the world never forgets .
This email should reach at least 40 million people in the world .
Join us and become a link in the chain of memory for those who have past in the terrible events of the Holocaust. Help spread this email around the world so others may understand and help as well .
Please send this message to at least 10 of your friends or contacts. Please do not delete this email; it only takes one minute to pass it on. Thank you for your efforts .

[BDunnell]

Maybe they have facts? I dunno, I've never tried to research however I wouldn't go as far as saying that it never happened :)

I believe things have to be constantly challenged. If holocaust deniers could find evidence to prove that it never happened, then they should challenge the beliefs that people have.

The trouble is that holocaust deniers tend to be crackpots — it's rather like saying that Margaret Thatcher was never Prime Minister of Great Britain, or that there was never any such thing as the Fiat 128. This is not a matter of opinion, unlike questions such as 'was it justified?' or 'might it have been a good thing?' Of course, no-one in their right mind would answer 'yes' to either, but they are in a different category to outright denial.

This doesn't mean I think that David Irving should have been jailed in Austria, by the way.

[jso1985]

agree with BDunell

One thing is that probably some Jews over-exploit the holocaust wich is certainly annoying.
But denying it happened, well it's pure nonsense IMO, anyway the only ones who denied are people who already have some beef against Jews so that technically leaves them without any valid point

[Canada Cornrow]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6263103.stm

It's illegal to deny the holocaust in:

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia

Within the EU :)


This is more in line with the title of this thread. Professor Finkelstein isn't having his freedom of speech taken away from him. From the article it didn't seem like anyone was trying to shut him up.

[SOD]

Alan Dershowitz (of the OJ Simpson trial fame) lobbied to make sure that Finkelstein was not granted tenure by DePaul University.

[Eki]

This is more in line with the title of this thread. Professor Finkelstein isn't having his freedom of speech taken away from him. From the article it didn't seem like anyone was trying to shut him up.
But at least in those countries you know you're not allowed to deny the Holocaust or spread Nazi propaganda. But in Finkelstein's case he probably didn't know he shouldn't voice out his opinion. At least in Finland it's illegal for employers to discriminate against their employees because of their opinions.

[Tomi]

The trouble is that holocaust deniers tend to be crackpots

True yes, i would say about just as amusing crackpots that the creationist are.
I belive the reason it's banned to deny the holocaust in some countries, is to try to prevent nazis and other extreme right to get in power.

[Canada Cornrow]

But at least in those countries you know you're not allowed to deny the Holocaust or spread Nazi propaganda. But in Finkelstein's case he probably didn't know he shouldn't voice out his opinion. At least in Finland it's illegal for employers to discriminate against their employees because of their opinions.

He wrote how many books before he was hired by De Paul? Seems like he "voiced out his opinion" just fine thank you.

[Malbec]

I've read some of Finkelstein's books. He isn't denying the Holocaust happened, in fact I believe he lost most of his family during the war and is Jewish himself.

A memorable opening line from one of his books is that there are now more Holocaust survivors in America 50-60 years after the end of the war than were liberated at the camps.

He is VERY angry however that the memory of those who died in the camps is being exploited by a group of lawyers and pressure groups that are more after money than any sense of justice or truth. Many of his points revolve around the fact that in the cases where large German or Austrian firms are sued for using Jewish labour, the survivors get only a tiny fraction of the often huge payouts. The rest goes to what he calls the Holocaust industry, ie the aforementioned lawyers and so on, a huge money making concern with little regard for the genuine survivors. He is also angry at the number of Jewish bandwagon jumpers who claim to have been in the camps to try and get compensation to which they are not entitled to.

He also goes on to describe how anyone who challenges the version of history projected by these pressure groups is quickly projected as being anti-semetic and discredited. Seems like he's fallen victim to it himself.

Its a totally separate issue from Holocaust deniers who I believe should have the right to challenge history, although almost all of their arguments are so poor they discredit themselves effortlessly.

[Daniel]

I posted something a while ago about some stupid people suing a French rail company for transporting relatives to their death. Kind of illustrates Dylan's point well.

[tinchote]

He wrote how many books before he was hired by De Paul? Seems like he "voiced out his opinion" just fine thank you.

Yes, of course. "You're free to voice your opinion; oh, and by the way, you are fired". Way to go :rolleyes:

[Hondo]

Yes, of course. "You're free to voice your opinion; oh, and by the way, you are fired". Way to go :rolleyes:

They were exercising their right to react to his opinion. Sometimes, freedom of speech of the wrong kind at the wrong time will result in your face bringing a fist to a sudden stop. Yes, I believe there are those out there, and we all see it every day, who will exploit the holocaust and other tragic events for commercial purposes and personal gain. Within 24 hours of the 9/11 event, all kinds of people were making money selling flags, stickers and momentos.

In the words of a great person whom I don't remember, "it's the money, stupid.".

Truer words were never spoken.

[tinchote]

They were exercising their right to react to his opinion.

That's precisely the problem. Universities are usually characterized as places where you are not persecuted for your opinions. Now we now that De Paul university punishes its professors when they don't have a politically correct opinion. It's reallys sad :s

[Canada Cornrow]

Yes, of course. "You're free to voice your opinion; oh, and by the way, you are fired". Way to go :rolleyes:

DePaul did the wrong thing. They knew exactly what they were getting when they hired him. From his Wikipedia entry:

"Finkelstein wrote his doctoral thesis on Zionism, and it was through this work that he first attracted controversy. Finkelstein has taught at Rutgers University, New York University, Brooklyn College, and Hunter College and currently teaches at DePaul University in Chicago."

I wouldn't worry about Dr Finkelstein. He'll wind up with another gig.

[Canada Cornrow]

But at least in those countries you know you're not allowed to deny the Holocaust or spread Nazi propaganda.

You seem a little selctive in your defense of free speech. Unless these groups/individuals are advocating violence then they should be free to say whatever stupid things they want to say. It seems like you're OK with certain kinds of political correctness, which have been codified into law in several European countries but cry foul at a private American university's actions. Having said that I believe DePaul did the wrong thing.

[Malbec]

It seems like you're OK with certain kinds of political correctness, which have been codified into law in several European countries but cry foul at a private American university's actions.

I do believe that those countries that have made Holocaust denial a crime appear to have completely missed the point in free speech. The root of free speech is as Voltaire said, I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it. I can understand why the likes of Germany have a zero tolerance to anything resembling Nazism but one wonders why they can't be more at ease with themselves regarding the basic principles underpinning democracy.

[tinchote]

DePaul did the wrong thing. They knew exactly what they were getting when they hired him. From his Wikipedia entry:

"Finkelstein wrote his doctoral thesis on Zionism, and it was through this work that he first attracted controversy. Finkelstein has taught at Rutgers University, New York University, Brooklyn College, and Hunter College and currently teaches at DePaul University in Chicago."

I wouldn't worry about Dr Finkelstein. He'll wind up with another gig.

:up:

[ShiftingGears]

I do believe that those countries that have made Holocaust denial a crime appear to have completely missed the point in free speech. The root of free speech is as Voltaire said, I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it. I can understand why the likes of Germany have a zero tolerance to anything resembling Nazism but one wonders why they can't be more at ease with themselves regarding the basic principles underpinning democracy.

:up:

[Daniel]

I'm not sure why Holocaust denial is even being talked about in this thread.

The problem was that a man expressed the fact that he feels that Jewish people milk the holocaust more than is reasonable and was fired from his job for this. I agree with his thoughts though.

[Eki]

You seem a little selctive in your defense of free speech. Unless these groups/individuals are advocating violence then they should be free to say whatever stupid things they want to say. It seems like you're OK with certain kinds of political correctness, which have been codified into law in several European countries but cry foul at a private American university's actions. Having said that I believe DePaul did the wrong thing.
I didn't say I think it's OK that denying Holocaust is illegal, I don't, I meant that at least there are clear rules. It's always nice to know beforehand what you may and may not do than just afterwards.

[Hondo]

I didn't say I think it's OK that denying Holocaust is illegal, I don't, I meant that at least there are clear rules. It's always nice to know beforehand what you may and may not do than just afterwards.

I doubt any of us here know the entire story but I would like to believe they didn't just up and suddenly fire him. There may have been a few meetings prior to the event where school officials told the man that while it had been allowed in the past, the political(financial) winds had changed and he needed to stop it now but he chose not to stop.

But you're right, always know the house rules before you sit down to the game.

[SOD]

They were exercising their right to react to his opinion. Sometimes, freedom of speech of the wrong kind at the wrong time will result in your face bringing a fist to a sudden stop.

The right to use physical violence is not enshrined in any constitution.

[Hondo]

The right to use physical violence is not enshrined in any constitution.

I was unaware I said physical violence was a right to be used against freedom of speech, I thought I had mentioned it as a possible reaction.

While the right to use physical violence may not be enshined in any constitution ( I don't know, I haven't read them all and haven't read the US Constitution in a very long time), the right to use physical violence up to and including deadly force is enshined in many penal codes that have been recognised as constitutional.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Here's a recent story on the topic. At the moment Edward Zwick (Legends of the Fall and The Last Samurai) is filming a movie about Tevier Bielski, a Polish officer of the Jewish origin who escaped Nazis, fled to the forest on the territory of modern day Belarus and organized a Jewish guerilla outfit. so far, so good, but than he named the outfit after Stalin and started fighting local self-defense units, who were as much anti-Soviet as anti-Nazi. In one of his actions on May 8-9, 1943 he and his guerillas slaughtered 129 men, women and children. Yet Daniel Craig is expected to portray his character as an impeccable hero. Hmm, makes one think. Holocaust was a terrible thing, but let's just be objective and disclose all of the truth.

[Daniel]

Here's a recent story on the topic. At the moment Edward Zwick (Legends of the Fall and The Last Samurai) is filming a movie about Tevier Bielski, a Polish officer of the Jewish origin who escaped Nazis, fled to the forest on the territory of modern day Belarus and organized a Jewish guerilla outfit. so far, so good, but than he named the outfit after Stalin and started fighting local self-defense units, who were as much anti-Soviet as anti-Nazi. In one of his actions on May 8-9, 1943 he and his guerillas slaughtered 129 men, women and children. Yet Daniel Craig is expected to portray his character as an impeccable hero. Hmm, makes one think. Holocaust was a terrible thing, but let's just be objective and disclose all of the truth.
That's what I don't like about movies. Certain things like the British thinking that the Americans think that WW2 was won only by the brits and the Brits thinking that they won WW2 with the Battle of Britain are easy to prove/disprove.

But when someone is watching a movie about an event without ever having heard of it before they can be given a skewed sense of reality and will believe whatever they're told.

[BDunnell]

That's what I don't like about movies. Certain things like the British thinking that the Americans think that WW2 was won only by the brits and the Brits thinking that they won WW2 with the Battle of Britain are easy to prove/disprove.

But when someone is watching a movie about an event without ever having heard of it before they can be given a skewed sense of reality and will believe whatever they're told.

Indeed, because many people do not read history books but do watch movies.

[Hondo]

That's what I don't like about movies. Certain things like the British thinking that the Americans think that WW2 was won only by the brits and the Brits thinking that they won WW2 with the Battle of Britain are easy to prove/disprove.

But when someone is watching a movie about an event without ever having heard of it before they can be given a skewed sense of reality and will believe whatever they're told.

After extensive study over my years, I have come to the conclusion that WWII wasn't won by the US, England, or Russia, as much as it was lost by Hitler. The man was far from being a military genuis. His early successes came from the plans of others but everything started going downhill fast as he meddled and took over more and more operational control.

[Eki]

After extensive study over my years, I have come to the conclusion that WWII wasn't won by the US, England, or Russia, as much as it was lost by Hitler. The man was far from being a military genuis. His early successes came from the plans of others but everything started going downhill fast as he meddled and took over more and more operational control.
True. It was also stupid to have war on two fronts (eastern front and western front) at the same time. Just like it was stupid for Bush to invade Iraq while the war in Afghanistan was still going on. I just hope Bush won't be stupid enough to invade Iran as well. The plan is said to exist, but I suspect that the mission won't be accomplished in just 3 days this time either:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295529,00.html?sPage=fnc.world/iran


Report: Pentagon Has 3-Day Plan to Knock Out Iran's Military

Sunday, September 02, 2007

The Pentagon has drawn up plans for massive airstrikes against 1,200 targets in Iran, designed to annihilate the Iranians’ military capability in three days, according to a national security expert in Sunday’s edition in the Times of London.

[Hondo]

True. It was also stupid to have war on two fronts (eastern front and western front) at the same time. Just like it was stupid for Bush to invade Iraq while the war in Afghanistan was still going on. I just hope Bush won't be stupid enough to invade Iran as well. The plan is said to exist, but I suspect that the mission won't be accomplished in just 3 days this time either:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295529,00.html?sPage=fnc.world/iran

The military is constantly drawing up "what if" war plans to every changing situation.

At this point, Iran or anybody else, would have to openly do something incredibly stupid militarily to the US before Bush got permission to do anything in response.

I know Bush gets all the blame for Iraq, but he had to have the permission of the congress and the senate to invade Iraq and those idiots, Democrat and Republican, gave it to him. Of course, now that it's the mess that it is, none of those fine elected representives ever heard of Iraq. It may have been Bush's idea, but those other fools made it possible. Damn the lot of them.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

After extensive study over my years, I have come to the conclusion that WWII wasn't won by the US, England, or Russia

What about Scotland or Wales or N.Ireland?

[Malbec]

What about Scotland or Wales or N.Ireland?

According to some Greek friends of mine, Germany's defeat was almost entirely due to them!

[Hondo]

According to some Greek friends of mine, Germany's defeat was almost entirely due to them!

The Greeks did put some totally unexpected, serious hurt on them.

[Malbec]

The Greeks did put some totally unexpected, serious hurt on them.

Yes, the logic goes that by delaying the Italians for so long and forcing the Germans to assist them, Barbarossa was delayed by two/three months ensuring the Germans didn't reach Moscow in time knocking the USSR out of the war.

I've heard a few Germans blame the Italians for losing the war for exactly the same reason, for not knocking out Yugoslavia and Greece on their own in time.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

According to some Greek friends of mine, Germany's defeat was almost entirely due to them!

I was trying to make a point that Fiero put England in his list instead of Britain ;) :p

[Hondo]

I was trying to make a point that Fiero put England in his list instead of Britain ;) :p

You are correct and I was going to edit it to the United Kingdom but time had run out. I'm sorry.

[Camelopard]

What about Scotland or Wales or N.Ireland?
And the support put in by the colonies....... Churchill wanted Australian and NZ troops to stay and fight in the European sphere and not try and stop the Japanese advance in South East Asia and the Pacific........

[Brown, Jon Brow]

And the support put in by the colonies....... Churchill wanted Australian and NZ troops to stay and fight in the European sphere and not try and stop the Japanese advance in South East Asia and the Pacific........

And Canadians ;)

[Camelopard]

And Canadians ;)
Yes I have to be nice to Canadians because I'm married to one :D , however was Canada under serious threat of being attacked? Australia was attacked by the Japanese.
One also shouldn't forget the part played by all the other colonies including the Indian Sub Continent, Southern Africans (covering quite a few countries there) and so on.... :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Canadian Pilots played a vital role in the Battle of Britain.

[Camelopard]

OK I see what you mean........

[Camelopard]

As an aside to this thread, although I'm sure APEC will get it's own thread soon, tourists in Sydney photographing parts of the steel mesh fence put around the exclusion zone were told to delete these photos by a police officer as it was considered a possible security threat!!!!!!!!