What Happens Next?

[DrJackMiller]

I have been a lurker here at these forums for a very long time. Like many of you here, I have been a fan of open wheel racing since I was a kid and find the events of this season challenging to my faith and devotion.

The truth is now out there for the few left who care to see it that this "breakout ChampCar season" is anything but. It now seems obvious that the promises made by the Amigos were a brazen ill-advised and ego-driven bluff. I have been in the racing business my entire professional life and I have never seen anything as sad and ugly as this has now become. I don't like being lied to or being played for a fool and it is clear many of you don't either.

Now many of you here are frustrated and are eating each other alive while looking for someone to blame for the pending and inevitible failure of ChampCar. Self esteem is falling faster the the CART stock price in 2003 and fanatical FTG blind enthusiasm is being replaced by a dread of what happens next.

So, what does happen next?

Another five year plan? Sorry. I won't even buy a five month plan from this bunch. The past 15 years have seen too many people on both sides of The Split trying to sell eternal hope against a backdrop harsh market reality.

How about a new owner for ChampCar?

I suspect that many of you hope that Gerry Forsythe does the deal and the other 2.5 Amigos simply become car owners. The assumption probably is that GF will hire the right people and spend money marketing the series properly and disaster will again be averted. Then all will be well in the collective minds (and egos) of those who believe that ChampCar has still got winning hand somehow burried in all this mess.

Reality check: Look at GF's team -- Is it well run and is it sponsored?

Regardless, I imagine Gerry has had his fill of losing his ass.

Don't hold your breath for anyone else to step in unless it is the man everyone loves to hate from the other side of Indianapolis.

The truth is that this nightmare should not go on another second.

Openwheel racing must begin healing itself and that start with the fans dropping their mouse pad and keyboard weapons.

Divided we have fallen. United we will stand agian.

The time is upon all of us to end this tragic Civil War by looking at the facts and finding a common, realistic way forward.

The market has spoken. ChampCar isn't a brand. It has no economy behind it. It is simply unsustainable without the ego-driven investment of a bunch of very rich guys who have proven themselves to be just another bunch of hobby racers.

Indy Car, despite the lies that justified its creation, is more viable than ChampCar becuase it has the power of perceived inevitabilty and a brand that is defined by the Indianapolis 500. It is also a series that looks more like a CART wannabe with each passing year rather than the open wheeled NASCAR clone it was originally envisioned to be. Some here also forget that CART's greatest successes came when it was called the PPG IndyCar World Series not CART or ChampCar.

You have all debated endlessly about who has more fans and who has better attendance on these forums. The facts are out there if anyone bothers to look at them objectively. For several years, TV ratings have proven that Champ Car does not work on American TV. That isn't going to change...ever.

On the other hand, Indy Car Series ratings are showing relative stability above the basement floor where ChampCar now lies.

Attendance is wildly overstated by promoters on both sides. I know because I count seats and grandstands at events. I have been doing it since the 1980s and I can tell you without hesitation that the numbers we hear for the "Three Day Festivals of Speed" are utter fantasy -- including Long Beach, which sadly now has under 30,000 grandstand seats.

The hard truth is that there simply needs to be one series if the sport is ever to grow and thrive again. This needs to happen sooner rather than later even if it means that Champ Car goes to the great race track in the sky along with Can-Am, Trans-Am, F-5000, IMSA Camel GT and CART.

I we all don't like the fact that the (son of CART) Champ Car series won't win we need to find some perspective or do something else with our time.

The fact is that so much of what was once ours is now in the Indy Car Series and not in Champ Car: Indy, Milwaukee, Motegi, Mid-Ohio, Detroit, Penske, Ganassi, (Andretti)Green, Rahal, Honda, Target, 7-11, Motorola, Franchitti, Kanan, Dixon... the list goes on. More importantly however is the fact that all of the races have sanction fee paying promoters and all but one is in the US. Oh, they are also still payed to be on network TV.

So what exacly is it everyone fighting for in ChampCar? The right to race in Europe and Asia with drivers few Americans have heard of and near zero mainstream media coverage in the USA and time buy races on ESPN Classic? I don't remember getting the memo with market data about about there being a strong demand for a GP2 style series based in North America.

What is it that actually remains from CART in ChampCar? Newman/Hass, Coyne, Walker.... Paul Tracy, Tags, Long Beach, Toronto, Mexico City, Surfers, Road America, Portland, Cosworth, Bridgestone and Formula Atlantic. That is not enough to win given the shaky state of things.

Perhaps all that really drives the hard core fans who are left now is hatred for Tony George and the blind egos of a few rich guys who want to get their way. Hmm... flip that and you will see an irony.

Think about who has more to bring to the equation commercially if the series were combined. I personally doubt this favors ChampCar and Kevin's bluster about "50/50 or nothing" has proven to be just that. Bluster.

Back to my original question: What happens next?

Will the Vegas GP die too? IMHO, this is highly likely give the losses.

Will there be a Champ Car race in China in 2008 or ever, for that matter?
Highly unlikely given recent history.

Will Portland be gone? Looks like yes unless Champ Car underwrites it which, seems unlikely.

Will CDW bail? Why would they stay? Who is there to do B2B business with in a ChampCar paddock? Aussie Vinyards? Sonny's BBQ? Lexington? Motorock?

Will any new teams or major sponsors with activation budgets really come into ChampCar given the putrid climate created by overpromising and underdelivering, managment confusion, in season event cancellations and the skanky scent of AVN Racing and Hustler Clubs wafting in the air? Without major sponsors how will the significant losses by almost every ChampCar promoter be stopped?

Will there really be a new series sponsor annouced? That is the longest of long shots and everyone here knows this. NASCAR's former Busch Series, the Indy Car Series or the American Le Mans Series have a far better chances given their relative stability and the fact they are brand driven properties that are at least attempting to market themselves and create value. I know that deeply offends some Champ Car diehards here but basing a business on an audience that hates Tony George (or the Frances or Bernie) is not a business proposition. There aren't enough of you.

So, what will ChampCar's schedule really be in 2008?

Forget Mark C's fanatical daydream schedule... Think about it realistically.

Maybe 11 real races?

In the USA: FOUR Races - Long Beach, Houston, Cleveland, Road America

In Canada: THREE Races - St. Jovite, Toronto, Edmonton

The rest: Zolder, Assen, Mexico City, Surfers

Will the other Euro races happen? This is probably more likely than Orlando ever coming to life...

Imagine the schedule gaps...

It will be pathetic if a 2008 ChampCar season like this comes to pass. Forgive me but I don't think this is a viable proposition to sponsors and is nothing more than more time and money swirling down a rat hole.

I still love this sport but I now want to see it whole again... with one culture and one fan base.

As someone wiser than me once said:

"You got to get busy livin' or get busy dyin".

So, what happens next... now that blind faith or hatred won't work any more?

[beachbum]

That is the best post I have seen on the sad state of CCWS. Sadly, the fanatics on both sides likely won't see it that way and will post rebuttal after rebuttal and "proof" that the assertions must be wrong. IMHO, it is right on the mark.

Champ Car is mostly great racing, but it has become the playground of a few hobbyists, and just doesn't make any economic sense. Most of the teams could easily find homes in other racing series and we could move on to the future.

[Rogelio]

This "breakout season" has been nothing short of an embarassment, disaster, chaotic, joke...Who is to blame? The IRL is not to blame for our series woes. We have had an uphill battle since the bankruptcy. Unfortunatley, any progress that could have been gained since 2003, has been washed away by inept leadership. You have to wonder of the so-called three amigos ever had a vision at all.

I will hang in there until the end, foolishly.

[DBell]

It's hard to disagree with your post Dr. Jack. ( Your not the former racing doctor of the irl are you? ;) )

When it comes to the IRL, well I'm afraid it just leaves me uninspired. From the underpowered buzzy engines to the concept of big wing pack racing on ovals, it doesn't do anything for me. I've actually tuned into a few races this year to see what was what for myself and wasn't impressed. There has been very little passing even on ovals.

CC looks bleak and I think we're hoping against hope, but I'll ride it through to the end. If and when the end does come, it'll take a lot more than a couple of CC teams going to the irl for me to watch. It'll take a change in concept from the cars to the style of racing they want for me to give it a try. Otherwise, I'll have to make do with F1, ALMS and touring cars races.

[Blancvino]

My useless 2 cents

Enjoy Champcar for what it is ...
Hope for the best ...
Take what ever comes along ...

In the Amigos we got a few more years than what the grandson would have given us.

Oh ... and for G_d's sake BITCH ABOUT IT SOME MORE! That really helps!

[David St. Hubbins]

So....we just roll over and die?

I may be wrong, and correct me if I am, DrJack, but it sounds to me as though you're saying TG needs to run the one series.

While I agree there should be one series, I think the whole idea of AOWR needs to be burned to the ground and start from scratch, with neither KK et al nor tg in charge. Someone, be it an individual or even a corporation, needs to take control. Someone who is willing to focus on the series and market it and make it the 2,000 pound gorilla it needs to be in order to counteract nascar.

[Turn-In]

A couple things, not to rebute, just to add in discussion.

TG makes more money than he can spend. No way around it.

CC does have the best racing, but obviously it is not being sold and is not the best package of commercialism and THAT is what matters. We get too caught up in the passing and things that matter to racing fans to miss what matters to the armchair fan who will turn in because of personal stories or the such about the drivers...etc etc.

Oh well. With those 11 races mentioned above, lets hope Laguna is added and something eastern....one can dream.
Just no lies.

Thanks for the post. I just want good racing with good drivers, that is going to be here for many seasons to come. Lets hope the last part comes to fruition.

[sanguin]

I'm a long time lurker and can't believe what I just read. IRL is no more stable than the minute Honda decides to leave.Cut rate sponsorship and driver salaries.TG doesn't have all the money to spend on propping up his series,the 500 and IMS,don't kid yourself. Racing in front of empty stands where the attendance is based on how many free tickets were given out that race is not a success. No network would pay for tv ratings of 1 or less unless they were bribed with the failing 500. No one cares about any of those teams or tracks in the IRL anymore.No one cares about their old car or their attempt at roadracing. The IRL has lost all the successful ovals CART once had.

Seems TG wants all the good stuff in CC given to him. Sorry, go take your sorry plea to the correct forum,IRL's.

See you in 2008, Long Live Champ Car

[NoFender]

Great post Dr J! Too bad everything about our sport is driven by ego. That has been, and will be, the demon real fans have to deal with.

[pvtjoker]

Seems TG wants all the good stuff in CC given to him. Sorry, go take your sorry plea to the correct forum,IRL's.


With every passing day, the list of CC "good stuff" is getting less and less.

[luvracin]

So now we have two "Lurkers" who decide now is the time to start a new round of potshots.

[Turn-In]

hey, ****** all the speculation and hate. why don't we just see what happens and what is going on in january. Then we can talk about the new and great season.

Both series need to shut up.

And i stand corrected, with TG probably going from 4 cars to 2 cars next year, then yeah, you are right, he doesnt have all the money in the world.

[CCFanatic]

hey, ****** all the speculation and hate. why don't we just see what happens and what is going on in january. Then we can talk about the new and great season.

Both series need to shut up.

And i stand corrected, with TG probably going from 4 cars to 2 cars next year, then yeah, you are right, he doesnt have all the money in the world.


What, I though TG was taking his fleet of cars to Nascar? What happened about that? They were going to run a new Ford team. J/K.

This CCWS season still rocks. Fans are having fun, and the racing is better than what many thought it was going to be.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Dr. Jack, I agree with most of your post. I suppose I would agree if I could just get past the ugly race cars the IRL has and some of the dumbest races going at places like Chicagoland where they race in a big pack hoping like hell not to hit each other.

My antipathy for the man at 16th and Georgetown and his lies to create the IRL is well known, but I watch the 500 pretty much every year on TV, so there you go. I guess I would just have to adapt. That said, the spirit of what CART was, and what it stood for in the princples of what was happening was where my loyalties went. I never understood the reason for any of this, and to reward someone for that just never quite seemed right, but yes, I still will watch some IRL events. I am conflicted.

I am a race fan first and foremost, and enjoy racing in every form, including F1 to showroom stocks and Vees., so I will find other series. It just is a crime that what KK did was put the series back up, only to let it die through mismanagement and undercapitalization. Abandoning ovals, going overseas, poorly thought out ventures in street festivals, and putting so much money into the hardware of the sport while underfunding the marketing is just a waste.

Oh yes, one more point. Someone said the IRL is in as desparate shape without Honda as Champ Car is. Maybe, but I can tell you this much. Tony aint afraid to lose money for somehting he believes in. Gerry and Kevin obviously are. They blinked.....and you see the results this year. The arrogant attitude and the spin control is just a front for people who cant understand what they are trying to do here......

[CCWS77]

Even if CC exploded tomorrow, I find the notion that IRL will pick up the pieces and make a good series - total fantasy. It just isnt good even if it is run more economically.

[ShiftingGears]

Even if CC exploded tomorrow, I find the notion that IRL will pick up the pieces and make a good series - total fantasy. It just isnt good even if it is run more economically.

Not again.

[Roninho]

For me the most painfull part is that up untill this season for me there was always something in CART/Champcar that could be seen as the savior for the serie. After the split CART had the manufacturers. When they left Pook came along with Ford/Cosworth and enough money in the bank to run a couple of years. When CART went bankrupt a couple of wealthy businessman were the saviors who were going to turn things around. Somewhere along this line the 'street festivals' was also the concept. When it was obvious that all this wasn't working we were 'sold' the idea that the dp01 was going to solve a lot of issues.

But after a season of low car counts, cancelled events and awful serie-management i just don't see anything that can be seen as 'savior'. The serie has no strategy, and at this moment i'm not even sure what market they are targeting.

[sanguin]

a new car, new events, revived Atlantics with the winner going to CC, tv contract,new teams,an engine manufacturer,that's quite an accomplishment in 4 years. Much more than the IRL has done in 12.

If a promoter doesn't put on a race, it doesn't take away anything from what the series has already achieved. Things need to be done ,absolutely.But its not the end of the world,or the IRL would fold without Michigan too. Maybe I'm not understanding that one race that never happened is outweighing all the good racing I saw this season.

See you in 2008.

[NoFender]

I think you're just very optimistic. Which isn't a bad thing, but the writing has been on the wall for either series. CC isn't far from the IRL, but they are sinking a bit faster.

[mike15]

Speculation, speculation, speculation.

The racing in Champ Car has been good all year. The rain has contributed what some have considered great races. Al in all there were great improvement in Champ Car over the past 3 seasons.

Yes, yes there were some promoter issues that cancelled races. Developing promoter relationships and schedules take time. Everyone on these forums get on the Internet and love to spend money that is not there to spend and speculate on every Champ Car involvement from selecting the correct office toilet paper to firing everyone to questioning the standing starts.

It's not all that complicated when you stop turn on Race Director and enjoy the weekend.

Champ Car in 2008 will be better, not perfect by a long shot, but it will be better. Yes there probable will be a schedule that will not be perfect in some eyes and yes there may be changes and cancellations.

As long as Champ Car races in 2008, I for one will be a happy Champ Car race fan.

[NoFender]

+1

[Chris R]

I hear repeatedly on both side of the fence how "far" each series has come relative to 1996 (the IRL) or 2003(OWRS).... The problem with looking at the situation that way is that the real benchmark should be 1995 - and neither series is anything close to 1995.

Anyway, back to the original question - what happens next....

I think it is clear we need one series and at this point I think it might take the emergence of yet another entity to make it happen. Perhaps there is a person or group who can work with TG but bring sufficient credibility to appease the corporate type who actually fund racing and the fans who have so much animostiy toward TG.

Here's hoping somebody other than the France family (imagine tube frame pushrod open wheelers...) can come along and put both OWRS and the IRL in the history books and start anew....

[Mark in Oshawa]

a new car, new events, revived Atlantics with the winner going to CC, tv contract,new teams,an engine manufacturer,that's quite an accomplishment in 4 years. Much more than the IRL has done in 12.

If a promoter doesn't put on a race, it doesn't take away anything from what the series has already achieved. Things need to be done ,absolutely.But its not the end of the world,or the IRL would fold without Michigan too. Maybe I'm not understanding that one race that never happened is outweighing all the good racing I saw this season.

See you in 2008.


Maybe you can feel that way, but you are a fan. If I am a sponsor, I am looking at the way Phoenix fell apart and Iam not getting warm and fuzzy feelings. You cannot set a schedule out and write it down in Crayon the way CCWS has.

The revised Atlantics, the use of Star Mazda as a support series as well, the addition of Tremblant, Assen and Zolder, not to mention the street course in Vegas, and the securing of LB, Toronto and Cleveland are all fine things. As is the control of Cosworth by KK. That said, if no one is selling the series, or giving it the appearence of stability, then you have just wasted your money.

I don't want to see them fold or give up the ship entirely, but I think this is where KK is going. I think he is hoping to cut a deal for he and his partners, and they have to devalue their product while not losing any more money on it. Lets face it, the pluses he will bring to the DP-01 ( it will be a good car in time, and the Dallaras the IRL uses are long in the tooth) and the Cosworth connection to build motors if Honda ever bails. KK, purely on business reasons along might be angling to sell to TG, if he gets his price. THAT would be a betrayal, a tragic end to all of this, but I wonder if that isn't the scenario coming, and we just haven't seen it. It would explain why the Amigo's have quit promoting this series to the level they promised they would, and it would explain why no one seems to be saying definitively what their direction is. I think they are just hoping to cut a deal, and they are not going to care what we think if they get the money they want....

[Rogelio]

The silence of the Amigos makes one suspect that something is seriously wrong. It was not that long ago that KK apologized for his vacation in Antarctica and one would assume he woud not make the same mistake again. According to many speculator/media, Champ Car is in the mist of a crisis and CC management has nothing to say.

A simple lie that everything is fine and we are looking forward to a wonderful 2008 season would help squash many or some of the rumors. How about some or any good news?

I guess all we can do is hope for the best.

[Kal]

ChampCar isn't in the best shape and has these annoying mismanaged resulted mishaps, but it's still better than the crap / fake racing of IRL.

I guess it gets to the point where we would prefer ANYTHING other than IRL.

[NoFender]

Well that's been some real constructive thought from Kal.

[Kal]

Well that's been some real constructive thought from Kal.

What else do you want me to say?!

Having an open wheel formula founded on lights cars with ridiculously high aero grip levels and low rev limits is crap. If it was about safety, fine... But it's not. It is about contrived racing to entertain the dumb ones incapable of understanding what's really going on.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Well that's been some real constructive thought from Kal.

Kal is exactly right, IMO.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Kal aint wrong, but if the other guys have such a crappy product, how come we are having this conversation about what is wrong over here?

It is about management...the fact is the racing doesn't sell a series anymore sadly, it is marketing. It is only us die hard fans who understand the racing part of it.....

[NoFender]

What else do you want me to say?!

Having an open wheel formula founded on lights cars with ridiculously high aero grip levels and low rev limits is crap. If it was about safety, fine... But it's not. It is about contrived racing to entertain the dumb ones incapable of understanding what's really going on.

So your calling anyone who watches dumb and incapapble of understanding what really is going on???

Please, enlighten me oh wise one.

[NoFender]

Kal aint wrong, but if the other guys have such a crappy product, how come we are having this conversation about what is wrong over here?

It is about management...the fact is the racing doesn't sell a series anymore sadly, it is marketing. It is only us die hard fans who understand the racing part of it.....


It's funny, you guys go back and forth about the same crap. I'm a fan of all racing. I love it. I'd never let a group of people or one person ruin that for me. I do live by the motto : You are your only problem. So it's easy for me to laugh at such negativity about a sport. It's all entertainment, that's all. To say one group of fans is dumb and incapable of understanding is moronic. It shows the true spirit that Kal certainly lacks. He is in no way a true fan of racing, only himself. I'd never agree with somebody so demeaning. It lessens you as whole,and that goes out to all CC fans.

I guess my point is to forget that camp and worry about your own. Never compare your pride with anothers. And that whole throwing stones in glass houses thing.;-)

[heelntoe]

So your calling anyone who watches dumb and incapapble of understanding what really is going on???

Please, enlighten me oh wise one.

Kal needs to open his mind a little to understand what makes a product good or bad and the value of the casual fan, IMO. What's next, from what's buzzing all over today, is that Red Bull is leaving both the Atlantics and PKV Racing as a sponsor unless a major rabbit was pulled out of a hat in an emergency meeting today.

I have also heard from a friend at IMG, which is clearly just second hand rumblings, that CDW is gone for next year.

I will expect that the next three weeks will reveal a lot of details about what sort of 2008 Champcar season there will be, if any.

[cartpix]

It's funny, you guys go back and forth about the same crap. I'm a fan of all racing. I love it. I'd never let a group of people or one person ruin that for me. I do live by the motto : You are your only problem. So it's easy for me to laugh at such negativity about a sport. It's all entertainment, that's all. To say one group of fans is dumb and incapable of understanding is moronic. It shows the true spirit that Kal certainly lacks. He is in no way a true fan of racing, only himself. I'd never agree with somebody so demeaning. It lessens you as whole,and that goes out to all CC fans.

I guess my point is to forget that camp and worry about your own. Never compare your pride with anothers. And that whole throwing stones in glass houses thing.;-)

I too, am a fan of racing. I was brought up on Cal Club, from before I could walk or talk. Now I'm really sorry I didn't have time to sit down & shoot the breeze, with you, at Road America. Hopefully, there will be a race there, next year & I'll make time.

I love Champ Car & will really miss it, if it fails. That's the reason I complain about how it's run. But I'm holding out for hope.

Jeff

[sanguin]

Kal needs to open his mind a little to understand what makes a product good or bad and the value of the casual fan, IMO. What's next, from what's buzzing all over today, is that Red Bull is leaving both the Atlantics and PKV Racing as a sponsor unless a major rabbit was pulled out of a hat in an emergency meeting today.

I have also heard from a friend at IMG, which is clearly just second hand rumblings, that CDW is gone for next year.

I will expect that the next three weeks will reveal a lot of details about what sort of 2008 Champcar season there will be, if any.

I heard a bunch of sponsors are leaving the IRL too. Just rumblings and meetings mind you. :p :

[sanguin]

Maybe you can feel that way, but you are a fan. If I am a sponsor, I am looking at the way Phoenix fell apart and Iam not getting warm and fuzzy feelings. You cannot set a schedule out and write it down in Crayon the way CCWS has.

The revised Atlantics, the use of Star Mazda as a support series as well, the addition of Tremblant, Assen and Zolder, not to mention the street course in Vegas, and the securing of LB, Toronto and Cleveland are all fine things. As is the control of Cosworth by KK. That said, if no one is selling the series, or giving it the appearence of stability, then you have just wasted your money.

I don't want to see them fold or give up the ship entirely, but I think this is where KK is going. I think he is hoping to cut a deal for he and his partners, and they have to devalue their product while not losing any more money on it. Lets face it, the pluses he will bring to the DP-01 ( it will be a good car in time, and the Dallaras the IRL uses are long in the tooth) and the Cosworth connection to build motors if Honda ever bails. KK, purely on business reasons along might be angling to sell to TG, if he gets his price. THAT would be a betrayal, a tragic end to all of this, but I wonder if that isn't the scenario coming, and we just haven't seen it. It would explain why the Amigo's have quit promoting this series to the level they promised they would, and it would explain why no one seems to be saying definitively what their direction is. I think they are just hoping to cut a deal, and they are not going to care what we think if they get the money they want....

Here's a news flash, TG offered CC money before and they said no.They are not interested in having TG own CC.

I think you're way off base.

[DrJackMiller]

It is interesting to read all the replies to this thread. To me, it breaks down like this:

1) People who like me have had enough of the false hope and spin spewing and just want to see open wheel racing whole again and focused on something positive rather than self destructive infighting. Like me, you have issues with the ChampCar and the IRL and many of you have articulated them well here.

2) People who are defiant and suspicious of anyone who would suggest "surrender" or that ChampCar might fail, regardless of how appalling the series image and business outlook is now. They will always cling to hope and talk about how Honda will leave the IRL or Rahal will switch series or Tony George will be overthrown by the family, etc., etc.

3) People who simply want to want to ignore both the increasing negative circumstances present in Champ Car while also ignoring the opportunity present if we are united again in a sport one culture again. Gee, let's just see what happens!

I do want to thank everyone for responding. Some of you write wonderful stuff and I have been reading this forum for a whole lot longer than my registration date of April 2007. I appreciate the passion here and the devotion to something we all share a belief in. To me, that is the pure spirit of this sport that may be badly bruised but not broken

I also share the same concerns voiced by others in this thread about the current Indy Car Series product. The cars are uninspiring and the racing is just too contrived on ovals. Their road racing so far has been okay but the cars do look a tad sluggish off the corners and they don't make as sweet a sound as a ChampCar does. All that aside, I have to admit that they have moved closer to being what I want as a fan. The diversity is getting better and driving talent matters more. But, I think they are only a 6 on a scale of 1-10 with CART in the 1990s being a 10. Something significant is still missing ... and it has to something to do with the ChampCar teams, drivers, tracks missing from the equation. To me, it is the magic of knowing you have seen something truly special where the cars and tracks were tamed by drivers who are as good as any on the planet because you aren't wondering what the drivers or teams who were missing would have done. Without that special something at every race the IRL will never get to a 10. Something has to change if they want to make progress and, please don't shoot me but I hope they do change because I have many friends there who drive cars, own teams and promote races. They are not politicians ... they are just racers or business people who can't afford an expensive hobby like the Amigos (Paul G. excepted).

As for Champ Car, I have totally enjoyed several of the races this year, especially St. Joivte and Toronto for the pure aggression and wild outcomes. I am a Bourdais fan (forgive me) but I think there are some great new stars in the making in both the Champ Car and Atlantic (my all-time favorite series). I also love urban street races for their ambiance, cultural presence and potential for marketing impact. The real issue is that no one that matters seems to care about a series with a funny accent that has a FrankenCART "walking dead" air about it. Also, the same comments I made about what is missing in Indy Car apply here but it is worse because ChampCar drivers are now so sadly unfamous.

To me the new DP-1 is merely okay in that it isn't as dated looking as a Dallara but I am still left uninspired by it. From what I hear it makes a lot of downforce ... which to some here is fine if it is on a ChampCar but bad if it is on a IndyCar...

I agree with many of about the IRL rev limiters and big downforce on banked NASCAR ovals but look at some other facts: Indy Cars are now running the same lap times at Milwaukee and Mid Ohio as Champ Cars did the last time they ran there and that takes talent and skill with 100+ less HP. I didn't like it when I first realized that fact, hey, life goes on. Kannan, Dixon, Castroneves and Franchitti aren't thinking about politics or upsetting fanatical forum posters (who blindly want to be right about their favorite series) when they are driving.

Anyhow, I give the ChampCar series of 2007 a 4 out of 10 because it is so far from what CART was in the day and the image of the Series has never been lower.

Like I wrote at the beginning of this post, it seems like an ego driven bluff gone wrong. To me it is obvious that the game is almost over. I worry for all my friends who drive and work in both Champ Car and Atlantic because they don't deserve to waste their potential in a half hearted hobby business run as if the wifey has decided you are spending too much.

So, back to subject of the thread:

What happens next?

I want a real IndyCar/Champ car series again. We are one culture that should move past this sad, stupid split.

The 100th Anniversaries of the American National Championship and The Indianapolis 500 are in 2009 with the Centennial of the Indianapolis 500 coming in 2011. What could the sport be during this time?

To me it seems obvious.

What happens next should be about the fans and what we really want. Not what someone tells us we want. I for one have had enough of the fake Indy Car and faux CART series that have been offered by both sides during this dozen years of doom and gloom.

What happens next is important and the math looks simple. You take a 6 and a 4 to get to 10.

But I care about what you think. Please share what you feel would be an ideal and obtainable open wheel world in 2 years...

Hopefully they right people on both sides of the Split will pay attention this time.

Back to the point:

What happens next?

[OWFan19]

Well Mr. Jobe, I think its safe to say that you go to whats available. I dont think people want the merger because the two series are hurting each other, but that the two together would just be the best of both worlds. I watch both when I can, usually the IRL.

[Chaparral66]

DrJack, (and could you confirm or deny you're the same guy who raced in the IRL when it started?), there is a lot of truth in what you talked about, and I think if there is one thing that unites those of us on the Champ Car side and those on the IRL side, is the continuing frustration of a split sport who are both in denial about the state of the (two) series and the future.

Having said that, I'm not ready to give up on the Amigos yet, despite some very poor judgements and decisions. There have been some excellent decisions, such as a revitalized Atlantic Series, which is a win-win for all involved. Putting Tony Cotman in as series day-to-day czar which is supported by everyone, and it will take some time to realize his potential for righting the ship. CCWS, despite having to cancel some races, is starting to slowly re-look at classic roadcourses, both here and abroad; Mt. Tremblant was a bullseye and we need to take back our North American roadcourses, maybe continuing to work with the ALMS. The schedule obviously needs work and needs to be more timely. Thankfully, the TV package is now back to stability, and that needs to be given time to grow. Yes, there are concerns, but we need to make ourselves heard so that those concerns are addressed.

The bottom line here for me, is that if CCWS goes away after 2007, I can still get my racing jones with Formula 1, Sportscars, -- and yes -- NASCAR. I have a major problem supporting a series borne out of hate and vindictiveness as oppose to love of tradition and competition, which makes it very difficult for me to support the IRL, even though I do watch on occasion. This series continues to hang on hoping CC won't, and that's way too cynical for me. As some of you have said, egos drive this war and logic, common sense, and regard for the fan do not. Maybe if they both go away will be a shot in the arm for the sport, who knows. Until then, or a merger finally happens, make mine Champ Car.

[weeflyonthewall]

The revised Atlantics, the use of Star Mazda as a support series as well, the addition of Tremblant, Assen and Zolder, not to mention the street course in Vegas, and the securing of LB, Toronto and Cleveland are all fine things. As is the control of Cosworth by KK.

>>>>FULL STOP<<<<
Nit pick all the negative you want. If there were no negative posts this would turn into a boring forum. Like CCF?

[Fangio]

The demise of Champ Car will not add a .1 to The IRL. The fans are gone, the ones that watch will generally watch another road racing series.
Don`t kid yourselves.

[jimispeed]

Mont Tremblant, Elkhart Lake, Assen and Zolder,Vegas, San Jose, Long Beach, Surfers Paradise, Toronto and Cleveland !!

Sebastian Bourdais,Oriol Servia,Graham Rahal, Robert Doornbos, Justin Wilson, Will Power, Alex Tagliani, Bruno Junquiera

Very race savvy, super sexy Panoz DP01 Chassis...........

And you gave it a four?!! Dr. Jack, are you sure you've watched these races? Champcar has been pretty damn competitive this year!!


The only thing Champcar is blatantly ignoring is that lots of money needs to be put into promotion if Champcar has any plans for succeeding. Is it too late? Hell No!!! Will Champcar step up to where they belong and spend the money/hire the right people? Let's hope so!!! I've loved it since the nineteen eighties. Before the beginning of this season I pushed for Champcar to treat this year with the new chassis, to be the year everything gets stepped up. To bring legends to the tracks and interview them for the audience and television!! To remind everyone out there that this series is coming on, time to jump on board!! That kind of presentation never happened!! If Champcar and its organization doesn't promote in a way that brings all that was and is to come, then captivating everyone who is thirsting for it will never happen!

Champcar needs to start a huge campaign, and invest big dollars in a promotional campaign starting NOW and into the future!!

It's a phenomenal series that's missing a huge promotion department.....

[ShiftingGears]

Champcar needs to start a huge campaign, and invest big dollars in a promotional campaign starting NOW and into the future!!

It's a phenomenal series that's missing a huge promotion department.....

Read the Road Racing thread to realise how Champ Car will become great once more :D
More people would latch on if it was unique, which at the moment it isnt, because at the moment I'm not sure that a promotional campaign would work...

Who would they market it to, exactly? It's half American races, half international races, and 100% heading towards obscurity. I doubt many Americans are interested in a series without all that many Americans, for one...

It isn't, at the moment, really promotable... I'm not sure that a campaign would pay off. Changing the cars would help :D

[jimispeed]

It isn't, at the moment, really promotable... I'm not sure that a campaign would pay off. Changing the cars would help :D

It is an extremely promotable series!! Get rid of the DP01? Hah!! This is the first year and they've just scratched the surface on this car. It will improve tremendously! That's my thought. And I stand by my previous post.

[ShiftingGears]

It is an extremely promotable series!! Get rid of the DP01? Hah!! This is the first year and they've just scratched the surface on this car. It will improve tremendously! That's my thought. And I stand by my previous post.

It's lap times are in the league of an F1 car and I like it but it is essentially the same as any other formula car. I just don't see the point of keeping wings and needless technologies on a control chassis when the racing will be better and more marketable without them.

[FIAT1]

Congrats. On Your 2nd Post. Racing Is Great This Year And New Car Is Great And I Love Racing.

[sanguin]

I give IRL a 2. Those cars are unwatchable and the racing is contrived. I guess that's why nobody shows up unless they have a free ticket.

[Blancvino]

I give IRL a 2. Those cars are unwatchable and the racing is contrived. I guess that's why nobody shows up unless they have a free ticket.

So what happens next is the other series is unwatchable? Interesting...

[beachbum]

Nothing new here, nothing to see. Move along. The reactions to the original post were exactly as expected.

Reality is a bit*h ain't it? Yep, shoot the messenger if you don't like the message.

[DBell]

The demise of Champ Car will not add a .1 to The IRL. The fans are gone, the ones that watch will generally watch another road racing series.
Don`t kid yourselves.

A good point, one not often made enough. Both series are pretty much down to the diehards. If one goes, their fans will go with it, for the most part. If one goes away, the one left will have the same problems they currently have. They may gain a couple of teams and a few fans, but if they are going to have a major job ahead to put OW racing back to where it was.

If it is TG left, I want to ask if people here, whatever your current allegence, do you think he is a good enough businessman to lead a series back to the top. Try to answer without involving hate/love emotions about him.

My answer is I don't think so. He has a lot of money to cover his mistakes and for all the advantages he gained when the teams and manufacturers, his series isn't in much better shap than CC curently is.

[DrJackMiller]

Wow, I can already feel the tiny sharp teeth of the FTG anti-bodies attacking anyone who does not post messages saluting the glorious victory of the Billionaire Boys Club over the Gomers and the Grandson. How many people are really out there who see the world in this polarized way? From looking at the numbers who post on this and other ChampCar related forums, not many folks...

The repeated recital of ChampCar "successes" by the fanatical few who choose to live in denial because their egos will be crushed if the false dawn of ChampCar's post-CART-bankruptcy "new tomorrow" fades (as it appears to be doing) only further highlights the realities that define this critical moment. Let's run down the list:

The FTG fanatic viewpoint celebrates wonderful new CC venues--which overlooks the fact that most of these are financial failures for the promoter or that some never happen after months of hype. Beyond that, there is no one event (sorry Long Beach) that has any real presence in the US general media like Indy does (okay Indy has less presence than it did -- but that one race still has more mainstream media gravity and audience than the entire ChampCar season).

Many of you write about about great ChampCar drivers. Agreed there are some, however, all but PT make less money than a NASCAR Crew Chief (if these drivers are actually being paid rather than paying for their rides). The hard truth is that ChampCar drivers are the opposite of famous in America... and they create little or no buzz outside of our tiny circle of hardcore fans. To me this is tragic and a result of the fact that what ChampCar is doing now and how it is positioned in the sports/entertainment market don't resonate with most American racing fans, casual fans, sponsors or the media. There isn't enough to relate to or identify with. No traction outside of young Rahal (who like 20% of the CC grid is aiming for F1) therefore no real progress is possible.

The Panoz DP-1 (the world's greatest, most fantastic, all-time wonderful racing car ever -- according to a few people here), is often mentioned as some sort of magic wand that will cure all that ails ChampCar. Huh, a spec car that looks like a fat F3 car? Make that 17, mostly underfunded or unsponored spec cars that look like fat F3 cars. Gimme a break. That gambit has been a Bust with a capital B.

Speaking of capital, how can all of you who are so pegged on the TG hate rev limiter fail to notice that he continues to invest in his series while sainted Amigos don't seem to be willing to do so any longer? Maybe the Amigos know something we don't. Ditto for the Grandson. To me this is telling...

I can't overlook th fact that comittment wins wars.

Now, don't take that last comment as me luvin' the IRL.

I heard the same sort of polarizing denialspeak and illogical justifications spewed by CC apologistss when I recently watched a 1999 show called "This is the IRL" posted on Joost.com's IndyVision channel. It reminded me of a Nazi propaganda film justifying the invasion of Poland in 1939. Ironically, the tone and content of that show is errily similar to what extreme Champ Car fanatics post in an effort to warp reality and to spin up hope when, in truth, there is none.

My point is that the the day of the extreme view on either side of The Split has now passed. An open wheeled series racing exclusively on ovals is a failed vision. A US based series chasing sanction fees around the world and relying on (Street) "Festivals of Speed" to market itself and create an brand image is also a failed vision.

This isn't just me posting on a forum. It is the voice of the market and it a has spoken repeatedly and with athority.

If you take the extreme views out of all this, just ask yourself this question: Knowing what we all know now, what would fans really want if there is one series again?

I agree with those who feel there are still things of real value on the ChampCar side of the ledger. The problem is that each passing month seems to bring a drop in that value. I just get a real sinking feeling... and do worry about all the people I admire who are passengers on the Amigo's sputtering world ego cruise. I fear they, along with some great venues and the Atlantic Series, will go down with the Champtanic if common sense does not previal. The once proud ship has hit at least six huge icebergs this year and the sea is rushing in... But the band plays on. I can hear the chin music all the way from Holland and it sounds like KK's favorite tune. "Just wait until next year"

So, back to the question I keep asking but no one seems to want to address:

What happens next?

PS: I chose my forum handle and my e-mail address using names of people from the early days of The Spit who symbloized how bad it can get.

[sanguin]

you are just a poster on a forum and really don't speak for anything or anybody but yourself.This is the CC forum,you're name-calling of fans is quite telling.

The fact is TG and the IRL are only as good as what Honda gives them and that is less and less. If Honda leaves, TG will be forced to foot more of the bill and face huge losses in teams ,drivers and sponsorship.Their fan base is dependant on free ticket givaways which is why they lose their tracks.The 500 is in an attendance and ratings freefall.TG is already spending money to fill the IRL grid and the 500 grid. Its a house of cards.

CC and its owners have always treated their series as a business working towards self-sufficiency. That's a good thing. Their success doesn't depend on the IRL or its demise.They create their own events and get their own drivers,teams and have their own engine. One race lost can be replaced, because the structure and stable events are still there.

I believe the series on the bubble is the IRL.Honda will there for 2008, after that .......nascar.

[DrJackMiller]

you are just a poster on a forum and really don't speak for anything or anybody but yourself.This is the CC forum,you're name-calling of fans is quite telling.

The fact is TG and the IRL are only as good as what Honda gives them and that is less and less. If Honda leaves, TG will be forced to foot more of the bill and face huge losses in teams ,drivers and sponsorship.Their fan base is dependant on free ticket givaways which is why they lose their tracks.The 500 is in an attendance and ratings freefall.TG is already spending money to fill the IRL grid and the 500 grid. Its a house of cards.

CC and its owners have always treated their series as a business working towards self-sufficiency. That's a good thing. Their success doesn't depend on the IRL or its demise.They create their own events and get their own drivers,teams and have their own engine. One race lost can be replaced, because the structure and stable events are still there.

I believe the series on the bubble is the IRL.Honda will there for 2008, after that .......nascar.

Hmm, Sanquin you are proving my point. It seems my first post drew you out of silent lukerdom too! Gee, did I hit a nerve?

Obviously, I know I don't speak for anyone here although I am pleased to see that some folks here who I respect because of what they have written over the years do agree with me.

I must share that I am in the business. I have a strong hunch that Sanguin is too and he has a pit bull in this ugly dog fight.

Regardless, I posted here because I actually know the people who run these companies you all write so passionately about. I know some of you do too but I just want to be clear that what I write is from my personal obervations after interacting with all the players.

Sanquin's hope of Honda leaving (and the Amigos real gambit being validated) is just that: Hope. The jug of CC Kool Aid that he drinks from is as tainted the IRL Bucket of Kool Aid that was passed around at the start of The Split. Some of you are probably not of a mind to accept anything but you own polarized positions but I will go on in the hope that others here answer the question I asked:

What happens next?

To me, what Sanquin has posted here seems to be the foundation of the Amigo's plan. BTW, I have had some of them explain the follwoing to me personally:

Honda leaves. Then TG is in a financial tailspin (just like CC!). CC has Cosworth, CC has entries, CC has Street Races that the sponsors want. TG is vulnerable; his family is screaming and wanting him gone. Things quickly get to the point that his relative equity is on par (for once) with the Amigos and badda-bing PG gets to be right for once! They do a deal that allows the Amigos to have equal say an ultimately, control because of their proven business acumen and intellectual superiority.

It could all still happen I guess so some of you will hold on to your dream.

But I ask the rest of you, what if it doesn't happen?

What if Honda doesn't leave? Is that all ChampCar has in its gun?

Or... what if the IRL is successful at bringing in other manufacturers after 2009 when the Honda deal is up? I am told by someone who knows that several Mfg. who are interested were on site in Detroit meeting with them about the future which could included several manufacturers or only one. I will remain skeptical about all of that until I see or hear more... but I am just asking the opposing question here: What happens if the one thing that everyone who is so FTG polarized is hoping for does not pan out? I also have enough direct insight to conclude that hope of an IRL collapse is misplaced as a launching pad for CC's salvation. CC is going to have to min on its own merits and it isn’t looking' so good to me.

Back to my point: what happens next?

As for The Amigos having a plan and vision that is working, I judge this on results. So far, not so good. The plan is fatally flawed but execution is important too and that has been hit or miss at best.

I admit I am a fan at heart so I can see the good and the bad in each series if I let myself get myself get past my deep anger toward the leadership of both series for letting this go on.

We all need a "win win" here to make this sport and business soar again like it deserves to.

I am tired of waiting for Honda to bail out or KK to go to trial in the JDS/Uniphase suit to determine the fate of the sport I have given my entire professional life to. I am not alone... Most in both paddocks I talk with feel this way privately. They are sick to death of the Neutron Bomb-like Split fallout that keeps ruining the best years of their careers.

When you get past all the polarizing spin there is one simple truth: There has to be a better way forward... together.

It is only my opinion, but I think people who the views like Sanguin has are passionate but delusional. You can't build a business on that.

People can smell it and Champ Car has the odor of a dead thing rotting from the inside out these days. At this point, the IRL just has a bad case of BO that maybe a good shower, some new faces, better venues and better cars with less wing could fix.

Does that bother me? Yes. I have spent a considerable amount of my life and net worth fighting the fight for CART and ChampCar over the years and I was a die-hard CART stock holder (actually I still am!).

I posted what initially did to see if there was any vision from the fans here about what should happen next given the reality of the situation. So far there has been a lot of polarizing conversation about what the actual reality of the situation is but no real discussion of what happens next outside of reciting the Amigo's wet dream scenario of Honda bailing.

So, how about we all try to discuss the point of my original post:

What happens next?

[heelntoe]

you are just a poster on a forum and really don't speak for anything or anybody but yourself.This is the CC forum,you're name-calling of fans is quite telling.

The fact is TG and the IRL are only as good as what Honda gives them and that is less and less. If Honda leaves, TG will be forced to foot more of the bill and face huge losses in teams ,drivers and sponsorship.Their fan base is dependant on free ticket givaways which is why they lose their tracks.The 500 is in an attendance and ratings freefall.TG is already spending money to fill the IRL grid and the 500 grid. Its a house of cards.

CC and its owners have always treated their series as a business working towards self-sufficiency. That's a good thing. Their success doesn't depend on the IRL or its demise.They create their own events and get their own drivers,teams and have their own engine. One race lost can be replaced, because the structure and stable events are still there.

I believe the series on the bubble is the IRL.Honda will there for 2008, after that .......nascar.

This post is so so far from reality that it makes the thread starter akin to Tom Cruise's manifesto from "Gerry Maguire". For starters, you, me and everyone else on all forums speak mostly for themselves, unless of course they're being paid to speak for others...or, for some of us, because we speak from our experiences with the current management of Champcar. Now, if this is the Champcar Forum, then why not focus on the question at hand instead of trying to turn it into a ftg fest, which only makes the position hollow. The IRL has its own problems, but your trying to imply that they're falling to pieces or dependent on Honda given the dire circumstances of Champcar just illicits more aggressive responses.

Champcar is in a freefall right now and unless major change is implemented and fast, there will be no more Champcar. The notion in your post that the series owners have treated it as a business working towards self-sufficiency is a joke at best. That they can create their own races, blah-blah, or replace a lost race, is also becoming more of a joke.

I certainly don't need to re-hash the multiple lost races or other problems we've seen throughout this season, but I too want to know what's next as it has become extremely hard to think anything other than more bad news. AR-1 now says that Red Bull is likely to be gone from both the Atlantics and PKV for next year and I'm pretty certain that PN will be announcing his retirement, which means McDonald's is likely to be gone too. So, with loss of sponsorship and a tougher and tougher time securing new sponsorship, what's next for a series that can't seem to make a true self-sufficient business? I wish I knew the answer, but for me, who was deeply involved and someone who's never been to an IRL race, I'm expecting there to be a shutdown without nothing less than a miracle...JMO, of course.

[indycool]

What's next? Who really knows?

Something happens every week to light up the boards, whether it's Franchitti getting upside down or CC in Europe and the Phoenix promoter pulling the plug.

"What's next?" is probably what's going to happen over the next few months. Chicagoland is the last IRL race and CC is out of the U.S. the rest of the way. "Next" is going to be all kinds of rumors and some will be reality and some will be so off the wall they make no sense....good and bad....

For CC, it appears the owners are going different directions. Petit and Gentilozzi join, dropping two cars in the process, then can't get along for whatever reason and split. Forsythe says at the start of the season that he's only running one unless it's paid for and eventually runs two. KK wasn't going to pay for anything, but he appears to have had some kind of deal with Las Vegas, that race lost a bundle and is unlikely to happen again. The very fact the four of them sat together before the media with happy faces a month or so ago was a joke compared to the actions they've taken.

IMO, that would hafta get "righted" before anything good is going to happen for CC in '08, like schedule, sponsors, teams, etc.

[Chaparral66]

Hmm, Sanquin you are proving my point. It seems my first post drew you out of silent lukerdom too! Gee, did I hit a nerve?

Obviously, I know I don't speak for anyone here although I am pleased to see that some folks here who I respect because of what they have written over the years do agree with me.

I must share that I am in the business. I have a strong hunch that Sanguin is too and he has a pit bull in this ugly dog fight.

Regardless, I posted here because I actually know the people who run these companies you all write so passionately about. I know some of you do too but I just want to be clear that what I write is from my personal obervations after interacting with all the players.

Sanquin's hope of Honda leaving (and the Amigos real gambit being validated) is just that: Hope. The jug of CC Kool Aid that he drinks from is as tainted the IRL Bucket of Kool Aid that was passed around at the start of The Split. Some of you are probably not of a mind to accept anything but you own polarized positions but I will go on in the hope that others here answer the question I asked:

What happens next?

To me, what Sanquin has posted here seems to be the foundation of the Amigo's plan. BTW, I have had some of them explain the follwoing to me personally:

Honda leaves. Then TG is in a financial tailspin (just like CC!). CC has Cosworth, CC has entries, CC has Street Races that the sponsors want. TG is vulnerable; his family is screaming and wanting him gone. Things quickly get to the point that his relative equity is on par (for once) with the Amigos and badda-bing PG gets to be right for once! They do a deal that allows the Amigos to have equal say an ultimately, control because of their proven business acumen and intellectual superiority.

It could all still happen I guess so some of you will hold on to your dream.

But I ask the rest of you, what if it doesn't happen?

What if Honda doesn't leave? Is that all ChampCar has in its gun?

Or... what if the IRL is successful at bringing in other manufacturers after 2009 when the Honda deal is up? I am told by someone who knows that several Mfg. who are interested were on site in Detroit meeting with them about the future which could included several manufacturers or only one. I will remain skeptical about all of that until I see or hear more... but I am just asking the opposing question here: What happens if the one thing that everyone who is so FTG polarized is hoping for does not pan out? I also have enough direct insight to conclude that hope of an IRL collapse is misplaced as a launching pad for CC's salvation. CC is going to have to min on its own merits and it isn’t looking' so good to me.

Back to my point: what happens next?

As for The Amigos having a plan and vision that is working, I judge this on results. So far, not so good. The plan is fatally flawed but execution is important too and that has been hit or miss at best.

I admit I am a fan at heart so I can see the good and the bad in each series if I let myself get myself get past my deep anger toward the leadership of both series for letting this go on.

We all need a "win win" here to make this sport and business soar again like it deserves to.

I am tired of waiting for Honda to bail out or KK to go to trial in the JDS/Uniphase suit to determine the fate of the sport I have given my entire professional life to. I am not alone... Most in both paddocks I talk with feel this way privately. They are sick to death of the Neutron Bomb-like Split fallout that keeps ruining the best years of their careers.

When you get past all the polarizing spin there is one simple truth: There has to be a better way forward... together.

It is only my opinion, but I think people who the views like Sanguin has are passionate but delusional. You can't build a business on that.

People can smell it and Champ Car has the odor of a dead thing rotting from the inside out these days. At this point, the IRL just has a bad case of BO that maybe a good shower, some new faces, better venues and better cars with less wing could fix.

Does that bother me? Yes. I have spent a considerable amount of my life and net worth fighting the fight for CART and ChampCar over the years and I was a die-hard CART stock holder (actually I still am!).

I posted what initially did to see if there was any vision from the fans here about what should happen next given the reality of the situation. So far there has been a lot of polarizing conversation about what the actual reality of the situation is but no real discussion of what happens next outside of reciting the Amigo's wet dream scenario of Honda bailing.

So, how about we all try to discuss the point of my original post:

What happens next?

DrJack, you brought up a number of points, and many had merit, no denying that. But some were arguable at best, just as some points made about the IRL, such as Honda leaving after 2009. No way to know that until we get closer. Don't be surprised if some people take issue with some of your points and present their contrary view. You knew coming in here with your opinion that sees the IRL in slightlly better shape than CC (despite issues with paid audience), that you were going to hear back from CC fans (not fanatics).

The simple fact is that the open wheel racing industry as a whole sucks right now. To me, and I have said this before many times, it simply doesn't matter anymore when it comes to CC vs. IRL. Both series are on a roller coaster ride with sometimes CC being up, and other times IRL. Both series contributed to this sad situation we all find ouselves in and both have generated enough kool-aid to spin a justification for it. CC can't seem to make a schedule in a timley manner or hold onto some dates after hyping them; and the Indy 500 continues it's desent from prominence, because you don't have the best of the best competing anymore. The fans are speaking by leaving the sport altogether, and they are not letting the door hit them as they look for other series that are stable and maintain a high regard for their fans.

As to your question, "What happens next?" That borders on rhetorical. No one knows what happens next. Not you, me, or anyone else in this forum knows what will happen next, until it happens. Both camps have shown an amazing capacity to let ego overule common and good business sense. And the fans have seen strife where they want to see competition. The sponsors have seen chaos where they wanted stability (like NASCAR). And the competitors have seen wins that just don't stack up in prestige like in the days of Mario Andretti, Rick Mears, and Emerson Fittipaldi. Add to that, venues which have been lost in this war and with it, another cherished OW tradition. What happens next? Who knows? All we can do is speculate.

Here is what I think MUST happen next, and on this point, I think you and I, and most everyone else on this site can agree, is unification. That is the only way open wheel can survive. NASCAR, already growing at a high rate, got huge in the mid 90's when open wheel split up. The only way not to be comepletely ground under the now 1000 pound gorilla is to merge and promote the hell out of it, and take back some of what NASCAR has gained. If open wheel can merge, then once again, we will have the best of North American open wheel on the same track, and once again we will have legitimate rivalries and will settle a lot of arguements on the track. The Indy 500 will mean something again, maybe to the point of attracting drivers such as Lewis Hamilton of F1 to compete.

Now, DrJack, here is what I think will happen, and it's pure speculation. But you all saw a hint of what might come with that NASCAR Busch race at the Circuit de Gilles Villenueve in Montreal recently. That race went in front of a packed house where some of the world's best drivers in any series competed against one another and put on quite a show. You had drivers from virtually every series competing, from CC/CART, IRL, Grand AM, ALMS, and other series and countries of origin racing on a roadcourse where there was passing, bumping and grinding, and a controversial finish. The crowd loved it, the media loved it, and of course, NASCAR was happy as they heard ka-jing, ka-jing! all day. This a very important test for NASCAR as they continued to see how their brand of racing fared in another country like they did in Mexico; and if it worked, with the venue and the variety of drivers they had, NASCAR will move in and look to be successful in Europe in a way Champ Car can only dream about. They are already the oval series of note in North America, which is what the IRL wanted to be coming out of the box. Montreal was a peek to the future, where NASCAR reigns supreme in North America, and will eventually set their sights on the world, where the only viable opponent left is Formula 1 (thank you, Juan Pablo Montoya), and Our Good Friend Bernie Eccelstone.

I hope that goes a way toward answering your question, DrJack. My question is, do we want to see this happen?

[Chaparral66]

You have some good points too, IC.

[sanguin]

To me, what Sanquin has posted here seems to be the foundation of the Amigo's plan. BTW, I have had some of them explain the follwoing to me personally:

Honda leaves. Then TG is in a financial tailspin (just like CC!). CC has Cosworth, CC has entries, CC has Street Races that the sponsors want. TG is vulnerable; his family is screaming and wanting him gone. Things quickly get to the point that his relative equity is on par (for once) with the Amigos and badda-bing PG gets to be right for once! They do a deal that allows the Amigos to have equal say an ultimately, control because of their proven business acumen and intellectual superiority.

It could all still happen I guess so some of you will hold on to your dream.

But I ask the rest of you, what if it doesn't happen?

What if Honda doesn't leave? Is that all ChampCar has in its gun?

This is where you just don't get it. CC's owners don't have a gun or a plan that includes anything to do with IRL's demise.CC doesn't try to get their venues,or drivers or teams. IRL will collapse on its own. What does Honda get out of spending money to prop up the IRL? What does it get out of defeating itself in the Indy 500? No one wants to spend money to try to beat them. If Honda were just selling engines ,it would be different, but they bring discounted sponsorships and drivers salaries, team subsidies and discount engine programs. This does not make sense ,they don't own the IRL. Why? because they signed on to stay in the IRL until they follow Toyota into Nascar.


Or... what if the IRL is successful at bringing in other manufacturers after 2009 when the Honda deal is up? I am told by someone who knows that several Mfg. who are interested were on site in Detroit meeting with them about the future which could included several manufacturers or only one. I will remain skeptical about all of that until I see or hear more... but I am just asking the opposing question here: What happens if the one thing that everyone who is so FTG polarized is hoping for does not pan out? I also have enough direct insight to conclude that hope of an IRL collapse is misplaced as a launching pad for CC's salvation. CC is going to have to min on its own merits and it isn’t looking' so good to me.

Good luck with that,it won't make a difference,CC is not dependent on IRL.I don't see any manufacturer giving Honda level support without a merger. The Irl just doesn't have the fan base or events to support that happening. The 500 does nothing for the IRL in attendance or ratings at their other events.



I admit I am a fan at heart so I can see the good and the bad in each series if I let myself get myself get past my deep anger toward the leadership of both series for letting this go on.

We all need a "win win" here to make this sport and business soar again like it deserves to.


When you get past all the polarizing spin there is one simple truth: There has to be a better way forward... together.

I agree, now tell that to TG. I don't know why you're preaching to us.

[sanguin]

What's next? Who really knows?

"What's next?" is probably what's going to happen over the next few months. Chicagoland is the last IRL race and CC is out of the U.S. the rest of the way. "Next" is going to be all kinds of rumors and some will be reality and some will be so off the wall they make no sense....good and bad....



Yep. consider the source.

[sanguin]

Now, if this is the Champcar Forum, then why not focus on the question at hand instead of trying to turn it into a ftg fest, which only makes the position hollow. The IRL has its own problems, but your trying to imply that they're falling to pieces or dependent on Honda given the dire circumstances of Champcar just illicits more aggressive responses.

I don't think CC is 'dire". I did not bring IRL to this discussion, the thread starter did. Why so defensive about the IRL? :wink:


Champcar is in a freefall right now and unless major change is implemented and fast, there will be no more Champcar. The notion in your post that the series owners have treated it as a business working towards self-sufficiency is a joke at best. That they can create their own races, blah-blah, or replace a lost race, is also becoming more of a joke.

I certainly don't need to re-hash the multiple lost races or other problems we've seen throughout this season, but I too want to know what's next as it has become extremely hard to think anything other than more bad news. AR-1 now says that Red Bull is likely to be gone from both the Atlantics and PKV for next year and I'm pretty certain that PN will be announcing his retirement, which means McDonald's is likely to be gone too. So, with loss of sponsorship and a tougher and tougher time securing new sponsorship, what's next for a series that can't seem to make a true self-sufficient business? I wish I knew the answer, but for me, who was deeply involved and someone who's never been to an IRL race, I'm expecting there to be a shutdown without nothing less than a miracle...JMO, of course.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But all you have is a bunch of rumors,non that are proven,non of which can't be overcome and nothing that will stop CC from their 2008 season no matter how you spin it.

You may not have been to an IRL race but you spend a lot of time bashing CC on TF.

[heelntoe]

I don't think CC is 'dire". I did not bring IRL to this discussion, the thread starter did. Why so defensive about the IRL? :wink:



You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But all you have is a bunch of rumors,non that are proven,non of which can't be overcome and nothing that will stop CC from their 2008 season no matter how you spin it.

You may not have been to an IRL race but you spend a lot of time bashing CC on TF.

Sanguin, you simply don't understand the principals of CCWS or the business of Champcar at all, IMO. Champcar is MOST DEFINITELY in dire straights and this has nothing to do with my opinion, rumor or spin as they do a great job proving themselves out through their own actions. I am not defensive about the IRL, I simply stated that a focus on the question at hand and not on the IRL is what's necessary at this point.

I have been in business with the Amigos...I have been employed by the former owner of the Cleveland race, have had multiple hard cards and spend my working days negotiating sponsorship...I do NOT spin anything as any information I have is from those who actually work within the sport or I qualify it's what is heard but not confirmed...the operator of this forum is where the Red Bull story originated, so I would point your critique at him on that point...as far as bashing CCWS, I am simply a frustrated former supporter whose first hand experience with the series resulted in my watching the recent operations very closely.

[sanguin]

Sanguin, you simply don't understand the principals of CCWS or the business of Champcar at all, IMO. Champcar is MOST DEFINITELY in dire straights and this has nothing to do with my opinion, rumor or spin as they do a great job proving themselves out through their own actions. I am not defensive about the IRL, I simply stated that a focus on the question at hand and not on the IRL is what's necessary at this point.

I have been in business with the Amigos...I have been employed by the former owner of the Cleveland race, have had multiple hard cards and spend my working days negotiating sponsorship...I do NOT spin anything as any information I have is from those who actually work within the sport or I qualify it's what is heard but not confirmed...the operator of this forum is where the Red Bull story originated, so I would point your critique at him on that point...as far as bashing CCWS, I am simply a frustrated former supporter whose first hand experience with the series resulted in my watching the recent operations very closely.

Heard all that before. How long are you going to use this schtick?

Sponsors come and go, surely the IRL has lost a lot of them too, like Klein Tools?Are they in dire straits? Red Bull may or not stay, they may be overextended in F1 and their failing nascar program. Will it end CC? no,and if you think so ,then you don't know what you're talking about. All you have is an opinion, no facts.

See you 2008

[OWFan19]

Heard all that before. How long are you going to use this schtick?

Sponsors come and go, surely the IRL has lost a lot of them too, like Klein Tools?Are they in dire straits? Red Bull may or not stay, they may be overextended in F1 and their failing nascar program. Will it end CC? no,and if you think so ,then you don't know what you're talking about. All you have is an opinion, no facts.

See you 2008
Heelntoe has proven himself knowledgable in this forum for a long time. I think its safe to say, he knows more than you do. His opinions are more credible than your facts.

[sanguin]

Heelntoe has proven himself knowledgable in this forum for a long time. I think its safe to say, he knows more than you do. His opinions are more credible than your facts.

HUH? this forum has some funny rules. :s mokin:

[DrJackMiller]

Some interesting comments are appearing and I agree with Chaparral66 and heelntoe.

Bottom line: Unification is an obvious and inevitable outcome… one way or another.

Okay I don't agree with Sanquin. But hey, I do "get it". I just won't blindly buy into the ego-driven confidence game being played. I know the Amigos and have seen them in action. I am still awestruck by the experience... in a very negative way. I am not alone.

Sanguin, so you blindly believe in "the plan". Are you one of the Amigos? Or... do you work for them? Or are you Mark Cippolini, Werner Fritz or that sage of all motorsports sages, E.Rasmussen Holm?

Okay, you can believe what you want. I have worked many years in a side of the racing industry that has given me experience enough to feel confident in believing what I do--so here goes: I can't help but believe that the evidence is mounting to suggests that doing business with ChampCar and The Amigos could be unproductive. Especially if you are a race promoter.

I don't know if all the rumored bad news that is supposedly coming for ChampCar is really true but the constant volume and detail of it is hard to ignore and probably repellant to those likely to invest in the sport. From what I repeatedly have witnessed, those who do ignore the warnings tend to have a nasty multi-million dollar surprise waiting for them when things don't pan out as promised. Witness the Vegas money pit, the China meltdown and the Phoenix flop. Oh, I almost forgot Denver... an event that went from being a poster child, being used to sell new promoters, to being, um, "postponed" (I love that word in this context). How do the Amigos expect to make progress in the face of this?

All of this is truly tragic and it ultimately hurts everyone who works in the sport on both sides of the split because it goes under the headline of “another open wheel disaster”.

But why I started this thread wasn't about that. It was about what comes next...

Will it be more of the same "wait until next year, new markets, bla bla bla" or something more sensible and worth believing for a change?

Something like a unified series with a bright future perhaps?

So, what comes next?

It is truth or consequences time.

[garyshell]

I find it almost funny how many folks here who are industry insiders hiding behind some pseudonym. They switch roles from telling us everything that is wrong, to telling us how wrong we are, to asking us where things are going to go next and then back full circle to telling us how wrong everything is and how wrong we are with anything we might suggest or offer.

You know it is so easy to say how connected you are and make yourself seem so "in the know" and important. But if you "connected" folks are so all knowing why in the hell are you here asking the FANS what is going to happen next? Do you REALLY want us to answer that rhetorical question? No you want us to play the straight man so you can shoot our ideas full of holes.

So lets just stop this silliness and turn the tables. If the good Doctor, HeelnToe and all the rest of you self absorbed insiders know so much, what does happen next? Be specific, I mean after all you guys are so connected hell you should be able to name names, give dates, quote budgets etc. To paraphrase the good doctor who said: its truth or consequences time, I say it's put up or shut up time.

Gary

[ShiftingGears]

If they're CCWS insiders, then read my posts for the answer :D

[OWFan19]

Denver was a great example of taking something sucessful, and ruining it.

As to what happens next,

I cant see any businessman with half a brain looking at this series anymore and considering it a good investment. Even if its B2B.

You have to get rid of most if not all upper management. The Three amigos need to either sell or figure out a point man and let them make the calls. You cant have three generals fighting this war. Thats why PG is bringing in questionable sponsors, and GF is saying no. Merging doesnt solve the problem, I see teams making a switch. The IRL promotes much better, because Champ Car doesnt promote at all. People actually know some of the IRL drivers. Their T.V package is much better. They have the IRL seems to have its stuff together with sponsorships, as there are more sponsors in that series. People complain about TG, but PG is a thug. He has a horrible reputation, notoriously doesnt pay his bills(still owes KK money). I can see why sponsors dont want anything to do with him (hench the spilt of Rsports). The Indy 500, CC fans hate on it because they dont have it. Yet its the largest sporting event in the world.

I dont want a merger. I dont want any of the amatuers that have basically ruined Champ Car doing the same thing with the IRL. They dont deserve anything in racing, other than being a team owner. Just because they can afford to run a racing series, doesnt mean they are qualified to run it.

[Jag_Warrior]

All of this is truly tragic and it ultimately hurts everyone who works in the sport on both sides of the split because it goes under the headline of “another open wheel disaster”.

You could have said that at season's end beginning twelve years ago, and said it every year thereafter.

There are many questions. But three I have are:

#1) Can the sport be saved?
#2) Is it worth saving?
#3) How many sports fans will really care either way?

[ShiftingGears]

You could have said that at season's end beginning twelve years ago, and said it every year thereafter.

There are many questions. But three I have are:

#1) Can the sport be saved?
#2) Is it worth saving?
#3) How many sports fans will really care either way?

1. Yes, with the appropriate changes I believe CCWS will be very marketable, distinct and unique. It starts with the cars.
2. Yes! It has potential that hasn't been realised.
3. Not many at the moment, but that can change!

[OWFan19]

1. Yes, with the appropriate changes I believe CCWS will be very marketable, distinct and unique. It starts with the cars.
2. Yes! It has potential that hasn't been realised.
3. Not many at the moment, but that can change!

There is a saying, if a tree farts in the woods and nowbody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

The car doesnt make a difference if the generalized audience doesnt know about it.

[garyshell]

I dont want a merger. I dont want any of the amatuers that have basically ruined Champ Car doing the same thing with the IRL. They dont deserve anything in racing, other than being a team owner. Just because they can afford to run a racing series, doesnt mean they are qualified to run it.

Then why are you here? What does this forum have to offer you? More importantly what do YOU have to offer this forum?

And lest I forget, your pearl of wisdom applies with a slight change of wording... just because he inherited a racing track doesn't make him qualified to run a series. That is PRCISELY what "...king George" was told by CART and that is PRECISELY why he got hit panties in a wad, pulled what would latter be called a "Danica stomp off" and proceeded to dismantle open wheel racing in the US.

Gary

[ShiftingGears]

There is a saying, if a tree farts in the woods and nowbody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

The car doesnt make a difference if the generalized audience doesnt know about it.

If clips of the race get onto the news, and the cars are going sideways, it will gain lots of interest. There will be an on-track spectacle to report, besides a massive crash or a punch-up. They won't look like your average formula car, and they won't race like them. They would be distinguishable, and UNIQUE. The fans will love it, and as much as I hate street circuits, they're a good place to start. Fans won't turn up if the cars are driving on rails. They'll turn up if they hear that the cars get sideways. There are a lot of fans of drifting, and if cars have to get sideways to get through the corner the fastest, the fans will come. I'm certain of it. And if fans want it, the coverage and sponsors will come.

[Jag_Warrior]

I dont want any of the amatuers that have basically ruined Champ Car doing the same thing with the IRL. They dont deserve anything in racing, other than being a team owner. Just because they can afford to run a racing series, doesnt mean they are qualified to run it.

Considering your apparent allegiances, the humor, you may not appreciate. The irony, you may not realize.

The tit-for-tat, self-important goldfish bowl of American Open Wheel Racing is something to behold... pathetic though it may be.

[Jag_Warrior]

1. Yes, with the appropriate changes I believe CCWS will be very marketable, distinct and unique. It starts with the cars.
2. Yes! It has potential that hasn't been realised.
3. Not many at the moment, but that can change!

I can't disagree with a sincere and hopeful reply.

[heelntoe]

I find it almost funny how many folks here who are industry insiders hiding behind some pseudonym. They switch roles from telling us everything that is wrong, to telling us how wrong we are, to asking us where things are going to go next and then back full circle to telling us how wrong everything is and how wrong we are with anything we might suggest or offer.

You know it is so easy to say how connected you are and make yourself seem so "in the know" and important. But if you "connected" folks are so all knowing why in the hell are you here asking the FANS what is going to happen next? Do you REALLY want us to answer that rhetorical question? No you want us to play the straight man so you can shoot our ideas full of holes.

So lets just stop this silliness and turn the tables. If the good Doctor, HeelnToe and all the rest of you self absorbed insiders know so much, what does happen next? Be specific, I mean after all you guys are so connected hell you should be able to name names, give dates, quote budgets etc. To paraphrase the good doctor who said: its truth or consequences time, I say it's put up or shut up time.

Gary

This is a really funny one. Gary, you are clearly the most self absorbed champcar cheerleader there ever was, refuting anything and everything those of us who've actually been involved with the series or the principals have to say...to trash us as those who somehow must be tied to Indycool and his paid IRL words of wisdom...you are the one that needs to get off the high horse of your posts and realize that's what's next for this series is not pretty without removing the head of the snake...a pearl of wisdom from one that obviously knows nothing :) , get your head out of the sand and try and accept that without radical change, there will be no series.

[Jag_Warrior]

There is a saying, if a tree farts in the woods and nowbody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

To heck with racing! What's this about farting trees?! Amigo, if you can find another of these farting trees, I will get Ripleys on the phone and we'll make some serious money!

But if we take a camera crew out into the woods and you say, "No! I meant a tree falling and a bear farting...", you're going to be walking back to town. :dozey:

[ShiftingGears]

I can't disagree with a sincere and hopeful reply.

Of course not :D

I just think it will make Champ Car very marketable and will be the catalyst for success to come.
Hell, it can even happen without requiring the AOW boffins to rip into each other over it!

[OWFan19]

Because I am mad at Champ Car for running its opperation like a hobbist, then I am an IRL troll.

I had a realiy check this week. I am frustrated with Champ Car. Look at the situation with an open mind and not emotional bond with Champ Car, and the reality looks bad.

My handle is OW Fan, I am an Open Wheel fan. Alex Zanardi was and is my hero. Greg Moore was my hero. I was a CART guy through and through. But this was not what I loved.

[garyshell]

This is a really funny one. Gary, you are clearly the most self absorbed champcar cheerleader there ever was, refuting anything and everything those of us who've actually been involved with the series or the principals have to say...to trash us as those who somehow must be tied to Indycool and his paid IRL words of wisdom...you are the one that needs to get off the high horse of your posts and realize that's what's next for this series is not pretty without removing the head of the snake...a pearl of wisdom from one that obviously knows nothing :) , get your head out of the sand and try and accept that without radical change, there will be no series.

I have never claimed to be anything except a fan. I am sick and tired of all of these supposed insiders, on BOTH sides, coming here hiding behind a screen name. I participate in all sorts of forums in my own industry, I have never found any reason to hide behind a screen name. I have never found any reason to say anything about my industry that I would not put my own name on. If I am afraid to put my name on it, I don't say it. Period. It's called CREDIBILITY. Look it up.

We have no way to know who amongst these insiders is really on the inside, who really has some dog in the hunt, who has some ax to grind with a previous employer or employee etc. All because none of these "insiders" has enough balls to say who they really are. Anyone can be anyone they claim to be on the internet. None of you hiding behind a screen name has one scintilla of credibility. Get over it. Respect can not be demanded as you all seem to think. It can only be earned. I have never once demanded any credibility here, I have always and will always say I am a fan, an opinionated fan, no more no less. I am not the one coming here claiming to know how this series MUST be run or who's head needs to be on the chopping block next. No it is the "insiders" doing all that. I am just the one here saying the emperors have no clothes. Especially when the emperors aka "insiders" come here and ask for opinions and then lay in wait so they can tell the fans who respond how wrong they are and how only the anointed insiders can possibly know what is right.

Did I ever ONCE say there was no need for a radical change? I've been quite vocal in calling for some radical changes, not in the managment area because I don't pretend to know the specifics of what needs to be done there, but in the cars themselves because I do feel that as a fan of racing for over 50 years, I do know what has made the racing exciting to a fan in the past and what is missing now. Look at some of the other recent threads for that.

By the way, I'm still waiting for all you experts to tell us what is next?

Gary

[OWFan19]

I have never claimed to be anything except a fan. I am sick and tired of all of these supposed insiders, on BOTH sides, coming here hiding behind a screen name. I participate in all sorts of forums in my own industry, I have never found any reason to hide behind a screen name. I have never found any reason to say anything about my industry that I would not put my own name on. If I am afraid to put my name on it, I don't say it. Period. It's called CREDIBILITY. Look it up.

We have no way to know who amongst these insiders is really on the inside, who really has some dog in the hunt, who has some ax to grind with a previous employer or employee etc. All because none of these "insiders" has enough balls to say who they really are. Anyone can be anyone they claim to be on the internet. None of you hiding behind a screen name has one scintilla of credibility. Get over it. Respect can not be demanded as you all seem to think. It can only be earned. I have never once demanded any credibility here, I have always and will always say I am a fan, an opinionated fan, no more no less. I am not the one coming here claiming to know how this series MUST be run or who's head needs to be on the chopping block next. No it is the "insiders" doing all that. I am just the one here saying the emperors have no clothes. Especially when the emperors aka "insiders" come here and ask for opinions and then lay in wait so they can tell the fans who respond how wrong they are and how only the anointed insiders can possibly know what is right.

Did I ever ONCE say there was no need for a radical change? I've been quite vocal in calling for some radical changes, not in the managment area because I don't pretend to know the specifics of what needs to be done there, but in the cars themselves because I do feel that as a fan of racing for over 50 years, I do know what has made the racing exciting to a fan in the past and what is missing now. Look at some of the other recent threads for that.

By the way, I'm still waiting for all you experts to tell us what is next?

Gary

Gary,
I have seen people say who they are in these forums, and then someone usually a jaded forum member does something outside the forum to cause harm to that persons career. I would love to talk about everything I do, but I dont trust everyone in here. Sometimes I will privately talk about it, but its rare. If a person posts enough acurate threads over a certain period of time, they develope credibilty. Dont second guess, but there are some very credible people in here. Sometime opinions are mixed with facts. Some of us unfortunatly know more than we should, and personally it has ruined certain aspects of racing. Certain people I had high respect for, are trully not what they seem. I just ended a business relationship with a driver whom I would love to tell it like it happened. I wont. Anyone that does, or will do business in this sport wont either. There are too many idiots that would love to make it hard for these people to do business again. I know first hand. I wont make the same mistake again.

[Jag_Warrior]

Because I am mad at Champ Car for running its opperation like a hobbist, then I am an IRL troll.

I had a realiy check this week. I am frustrated with Champ Car. Look at the situation with an open mind and not emotional bond with Champ Car, and the reality looks bad.

My handle is OW Fan, I am an Open Wheel fan. Alex Zanardi was and is my hero. Greg Moore was my hero. I was a CART guy through and through. But this was not what I loved.

Well, it wasn't me who suggested that you were a troll. But above, where you seemed to just see ONE screwed up series, I saw two.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the current Champ Car operation. It is a poorly run mess at the moment. Those of us who were CART fans have been told on numerous occasions that this Champ Car is not CART's Champ Car, and has no connection to the old Champ Car. "This is a brand new business!" M'kay. If that's the way it's gonna be, so be it. In high school, a girlfriend broke up with me. Said we needed to see other people. M'kay. I started going out with her sister a few weeks later: younger, cuter, taller, sluttier. :s mokin: So I'm not one to tell someone NOT to choose the lesser of two evils (or the more fun evil :D ). But I still see TWO screwed up series... one just more screwed up than the other right now. Neither is a model of racing success. Before singing Indy's praises, one might wonder if its ratings will bottom out at around 4, or if they will soon sink into the 3's. When you said that Indy was "the largest sporting event in the world", I assume you were speaking about attendance. In terms of commerial value, it used to be one of the biggest. Now it's not even in the Top 10 (Daytona is #4). Is it still bigger (commercially and attendance wise) than anything on the CCWS calendar? Yep, always has been and probably always will be. But the world does not revolve around, and sponsors are not restricted to open wheel racing ONLY. The world is passing us by while these two sad series try to drag each other further into the mud. That is what I meant by irony. It wasn't a dig at you.

[DrJackMiller]

Hey Garyshell, chill out. I am not demanding anything from the members of this forum -- especially respect. I also think being entrenched in a cult mentality won't change the world for the better. Cheerleading from either side leaves me cold. I lose respect for anyone who attempts it because I know better. I also have a right to my privacy. Given the very ugly nature of some who I have encountered is this phase of the split, it must be that way. I also think that the fans actually matter far more than people in the industry who consider themselves insiders. This whole Split nightmare would have never happened if TG and CART's managment and the team owners had remembered that fundemental truth back in the first half of the 1990s. Okay, I do know the key people involved on both sides and I sincerely doubt they would do it all again in the same way. But that is history... I am focused on the future. A better future. That starts with thinking about what might be possible and asking the fans what they really want. What should it look like? What comes next?

[Jag_Warrior]

Gary, you are clearly the most self absorbed champcar cheerleader there ever was

I think,,,,,, you owe Gary,,,,, an apology,,,,,,

:D

[ShiftingGears]

I am focused on the future. A better future. That starts with thinking about what might be possible and asking the fans what they really want. What should it look like? What comes next?

They want more excitement, without having to bring in contrived gimmicks.

Powerful wingless OW cars that have to rely on hard slicks for mechanical grip will open up more braking areas, more passing opportunities, and more sideways action will work! CCWS hasn't exploited the potential of a control chassis.

[tbyars]

1. Yes, with the appropriate changes I believe CCWS will be very marketable, distinct and unique. It starts with the cars.

Boy, here is a big one for me.

I have been involved with a number of technically-oriented industries in my days. And the best lesson I have ever learned is that it DOES NOT start with the equipment. The equipment is never the key. PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS THE KEY. And I believe motorsports is no different whatsoever.

Many, many CCWS fans went into 2007 with this attitude that the DP-01 would be the savior of the series, "The Future of Racing." That, IMO, is a crock. What a short sighted, ignorant statement. Look how 2007 has turned out. Misdirected loyalitites. Misdirected priorities. I give you the 2007 "breakout year" CCWS series as proof.

FORGET ABOUT THE CARS. Forget about the chassis, forget about the engines, forget about the tires. All of those things, in ANY motorsports series, are nothing more than selecting a vendor, something that has to happen in every business in the world every day.

For the same reason, the issues in the IRL won't be resolved in any way by any decision Honda makes. Any leader of vision can take those challenges and overcome them.

Dr. Jack, I don't know WHAT comes next, but I do believe I know how it happens. The series that finally figures out this entire deal is about its people - and the way they will be successfuly marketed - will be the series that survives. It ISN'T about the cars.

Look back at the CART news releases from 1995 - 1998 or so. What a marked contrast. You didn't see Craig or Pook's name mentioned at all. It was all about the drivers. Even the manufacturers then had the wisdom NOT to make it about their chassis, their tires, their engines. They made it about their drivers and their teams.

It was all about marketing the drivers and teams. And it caught the imagination of the racing-enthralled public.

Show me a month's worth of press releases from either series that doesn't mention Tony George, Brian Barnhart, Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerry Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi, Steve Johnson or Tony Cotman and concentrates on marketing marketable drivers and teams, and I'll let you know What Happens Next.

What do the fans want, Dr. Jack?

They want heros who capture their imagination.

[ShiftingGears]

Boy, here is a big one for me.

I have been involved with a number of technically-oriented industries in my days. And the best lesson I have ever learned is that it DOES NOT start with the equipment. The equipment is never the key. PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS THE KEY. And I believe motorsports is no different whatsoever.

Many, many CCWS fans went into 2007 with this attitude that the DP-01 would be the savior of the series, "The Future of Racing." That, IMO, is a crock. What a short sighted, ignorant statement. Look how 2007 has turned out. Misdirected loyalitites. Misdirected priorities. I give you the 2007 "breakout year" CCWS series as proof.

FORGET ABOUT THE CARS. Forget about the chassis, forget about the engines, forget about the tires. All of those things, in ANY motorsports series, are nothing more than selecting a vendor, something that has to happen in every business in the world every day.

For the same reason, the issues in the IRL won't be resolved in any way by any decision Honda makes. Any leader of vision can take those challenges and overcome them.

Dr. Jack, I don't know WHAT comes next, but I do believe I know how it happens. The series that finally figures out this entire deal is about its people - and the way they will be successfuly marketed - will be the series that survives. It ISN'T about the cars.

Look back at the CART news releases from 1995 - 1998 or so. What a marked contrast. You didn't see Craig or Pook's name mentioned at all. It was all about the drivers. Even the manufacturers then had the wisdom NOT to make it about their chassis, their tires, their engines. They made it about their drivers and their teams.

It was all about marketing the drivers and teams. And it caught the imagination of the racing-enthralled public.

Show me a month's worth of press releases from either series that doesn't mention Tony George, Brian Barnhart, Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerry Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi, Steve Johnson or Tony Cotman and concentrates on marketing marketable drivers and teams, and I'll let you know What Happens Next.

What do the fans want, Dr. Jack?

They want heros who capture their imagination.

The Panoz doesn't go far enough in addressing a problem that is increasingly plaguing top open wheeler series, and that is the technology taking away from the racing. What I am saying is that a powerful wingless car will be a lot more marketable as it will produce more opportunities for better racing, as I have said. I believe the spectacle and radical uniqueness of the cars WILL result in gaining popularity of the series. The racing media would go wild that an AOW series with powerful cars would remove the wings.

I'm sure there is sponsors out there that would try a series that is unique and spectacular. At the moment it is just another formula series. Money will come from this, and eventually top tier drivers wanting to come to CCWS. And top tier drivers are infinitely more marketable than pay drivers, or seemingly second-rate F1 drivers.
I'm saying that the equipment in this scenario would be the catalyst for change. As well as making the racing better.

[DrJackMiller]

I do like the idea of a wingless, powerful car. It is different and it stands as a unique measure of drivng ability is a sea of super downforce generating clone mobiles that make it harder and harder to see driving talent instead of setup talent. A change like this could be a profound shot in the arm if the drivers embraced it as the truest test of pure talent. I also agree about heros being the focus rather than the politics (a wingless car with big HP could help there). That latter subject is the ultimate buzz kill to casual fans. I will be interested to see what the Art Center IndyCar 2011 project is that Gordon Kirby and David Phillips have written about and if and if it has any relevance to this subject. I fear it will be just another empty PR excercise...

What should Champ Car's car be after the DP-1 if there is a ChampCar in 2010?

What happens next?

[Skid Marx]

I have never claimed to be anything except a fan. I am sick and tired of all of these supposed insiders, on BOTH sides, coming here hiding behind a screen name. I participate in all sorts of forums in my own industry, I have never found any reason to hide behind a screen name. I have never found any reason to say anything about my industry that I would not put my own name on. If I am afraid to put my name on it, I don't say it. Period. It's called CREDIBILITY. Look it up.

We have no way to know who amongst these insiders is really on the inside, who really has some dog in the hunt, who has some ax to grind with a previous employer or employee etc. All because none of these "insiders" has enough balls to say who they really are. Anyone can be anyone they claim to be on the internet. None of you hiding behind a screen name has one scintilla of credibility. Get over it. Respect can not be demanded as you all seem to think. It can only be earned. I have never once demanded any credibility here, I have always and will always say I am a fan, an opinionated fan, no more no less. I am not the one coming here claiming to know how this series MUST be run or who's head needs to be on the chopping block next. No it is the "insiders" doing all that. I am just the one here saying the emperors have no clothes. Especially when the emperors aka "insiders" come here and ask for opinions and then lay in wait so they can tell the fans who respond how wrong they are and how only the anointed insiders can possibly know what is right.

Did I ever ONCE say there was no need for a radical change? I've been quite vocal in calling for some radical changes, not in the managment area because I don't pretend to know the specifics of what needs to be done there, but in the cars themselves because I do feel that as a fan of racing for over 50 years, I do know what has made the racing exciting to a fan in the past and what is missing now. Look at some of the other recent threads for that.

By the way, I'm still waiting for all you experts to tell us what is next?

Gary


Gary (and sanguin), save your breath. It's a no-win proposition, don't ya know, because you're dealing with self-professed, powerful "insiders" who know so much more than the rest of us peons. Those who are so quick to tell you how powerful and connected they are, but won't man up and reveal their secret identities. Like a certain poster who goes by the name of parts of the foot that I suspect may actually be found to be implanted in his mouth!
This person who has claimed to sit on the board of directors of several major corporations and big-time sponsors - yeah, right. If you're that big and powerful, do you really expect us to believe you'd have time to come argue on these goofy message boards? I could claim to be KK, or GF, or PG, or any other person connected to the series that I want, and since these boards ensure a certain amount of anonymity it would be darn difficult to prove otherwise. If anyone asked too pointed a question I could just clam up and state that I couldn't divulge confidential information, or information that was sensitive to sponsor negotiations, or some other wild excuse. It's a game people play. It's a big reason why these boards have become less enjoyable to read and more insignificant - every thread eventually turns into a "urination competition" (sorry, gotta please the censors!), and there are far too many participants whose main competitive effort is "I'm more in the know than you are because..."
The upside to this is I'm actually getting myself weaned off these message boards a bit! There's a whole lot of better things I can do with my day.

[sanguin]

I will be interested to see what the Art Center IndyCar 2011 project is that Gordon Kirby and David Phillips have written about and if and if it has any relevance to this subject. I fear it will be just another empty PR excercise...

I agree, its just a piece of paper with nothing behind it. smoke and mirrors.
8 years with the same car,because they have nothing coming down the pike.

[David St. Hubbins]

What happens next?
I'll bite, but DrJack, I want a quid pro quo.

What happens next? Assuming that Assen is as successful as claimed (65,000 attending on Sunday, waits for the suites), CCWS will continue to be a global series, and focus primarily on venues outside NA. From the article published by MarkC:

So what is Champ Car's future?.... Is it more international, more non-U.S.?...

"It's called the World Series, Champ Car World Series. We did that on day one," said Kalkhoven.
===========
[KK]: "We've learned that there are other parts of the world, as Formula One departs, that have a great interest."That doesn't mean I think CC will give up NA entirely, but unless/until nascar cycles down, and makes things a more level playing field as far as sponsors and TV packages are concerned, then I think you'll continue to see fewer and fewer NA races. Maybe a 60/40 split in overseas/NA tracks.

Also, I don't see a wingless car, and I don't think the general public would either. See the Hot Rod cover in this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Cars
Is that the idea you're going back to? Or am I wrong? Most people with any idea of racing's history would think they were watching a historic race. How could you differentiate something like the Lotus from what you're proposing?

Although I have an opinion, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll keep my trap shut and wait to hear what you have to say. So I'm asking you: What happens next?

[FlatChatRacer]

What Happens Next?

Well, if there is a 2008 season, it will have the following...

1. Season preview that promises much and delivers little

2. 16/17/18 cars underfunded cars with second rate drivers and ride buyers

3. 13/14/15 races with 9/10 of those outside the USA

4. 2/3 races on the schedule, but not confirmed and ultimately cancelled

5. More buying of Network TV time slots and lower ratings year on year, due to poor TV coverage and presentation in places like Canada, Mexico, Australia and others.

6. No series sponsor, even though lots of rumours will promise as much

Is that what you were thinking Dr Jack Miller?

[DrJackMiller]

On the subject of “What Happens Next” it was an interesting weekend. I am encouraged to see signs of life at both the CC and IRL races with healthy crowds and good-looking events.

I know there are those who will debate attendance or who had the better race but that is getting really tedious.

I was amused to read David Phillips comments in his Sunday notebook on SpeedTV.com about the refreshing honesty of the Assen promoter in giving attendance numbers. It makes the promoters here look very bad indeed.

On the subject of this thread, “What Happens Next?”, I saw stories about both the Amigos media conference on the future of ChampCar and on the Indy Car State of the Series press conference. What a contrast in tone and content...

In answer to David St. Hubbins' question about what I think will happen next?

Hey, some of it happened today.

The Amigos spoke about a brighter day ahead. The usual “trust me” and “wait until next year” stuff we have been hearing for four years was spewed on a new continent. Sorry but I am not buying any of it this time. I gave at the office gents!

So... KK and PG tells us they are changing their plan yet again and charging off to Europe. What happened to the American National Championship that the Amigos claim as their rightful heritage whenever it suits them? I particularly like all the comments about how the world loves American stuff like ChampCar. I want what the Amigos are Smokin’ becuase without it, they sounded like has-beens in the making to me.

The IndyCar Series guys surprised me with the timing of their press conference but upon reflection, it made sense to do it in Detroit, in the heart of sponsor budget season. Some of what they said was interesting and the full transcript is on IndyCar.com along with a video that is boring to watch. Above all, they seemed more professional and organized than the Amigo's all-to-often FEMA, post Katrina style briefings. Time will tell if the IRL guys are spewing spin like the CC G5 fly boys did from their vacation in Europe but from what they hinted at, I do think they are getting ready to throw some Tonybucks out there to lure some CC teams over to the IRL. It may work given how many times the good ship Champtanic seems to have run into very bad things this season. People have mortgages to pay and families to feed and I am sure that many a team member in Champ Car is asking themselves “what the hell am I doing here” about now.

After reading all of this (including my favorite headline this week: "61,000 Dutchman can't be wrong!), I really think what will happen next is the Amigos will run out of stories to tell, people to dupe and excuses to make and they will either fold their tent or reach for the peace pipe. I think they all should be promoters and team owners and that nature will run its course. Ditto for TG… but I can’t imagine TG letting go as easily as the Amigos will.

So what I see is a compromise where TG and the IRL run the regular IndyCar season in North America and the Amigos run a fall and winter league in Europe, Asia… wherever. All should be under one set of rules and one brand but I can’t really see it being Champ Car’s. My hunch is that all this will ultimately be defined by TG and the IndyCar Series because they hold the most cards.

Of course there will be more promises, firings, key hiring’s, fallen F1 teams and drivers rumored to be coming to ChampCar, mega new urban events that somehow never work out and a civil trial in California in October before all this is all over… but I do believe it will be over.

I know the foregoing seems like the end of the world to some here but I can tell you first hand, that for those of us who work in the business, the past dozen years has been the end of the world. Thankfully the gong is about the sound on the Amigo’s ego-o-rama and someone will finally “win” this sad war. I just hope it is the fans not TG who get the ultimate say in what happens next.

With the Indy Car rules under review there is some small hope that all may come to their senses and do what is right: One series with all the great drivers in fast, sexy cars, multiple manufacturers, a diverse schedule that has a vibrant competitive environment and venue mix that reflects what CART was while keeping the spirit of IndyCar and Champ Car racing’s rich shared heritage alive and thriving. No contrived racing and no more Pee Wee’s manager and his pervy old sidekick. One more thing, ISC and SMI can have their 1 1/2 mile tracks for monster truck races if the new IndyCars cannot be configured to race safely on them without running in flat out packs of mayhem and doom.

I know everyone may not agree --- especially CC'ers like Sanguin or the IRL lovers like IndyCool but what we have now in either series is simply not good enough. I want to gag every time I hear one side or the other attempt to argue that they have “the greatest on track product the planet”. Hmmmm. Why then are both series so seriously shy of audience and sponsors?

It is now time to get real boys and girls or get left behind when dawn breaks on a new day.

As for the cars, I want something fresh. It is time to zero the tach and start a new race to a fresh identity without all this baggage. I want these new cars to be what every driver worth a damn on the planet wants to drive because they beautiful, powerful, and fast. Most importantly, I hope they require courage, commitment and skill… and the ability to skillfully modulate the throttle at every track on the schedule.

While reading the IRL State of the Series story and transcript on IndyCar.com, I found the following link to a short video on the Art Center Indy Car 2011 project. It was interesting in that Robert Clarke seemed committed to the Indy Car Series and TG seemed to like the idea that the cars need changing. Good... I guess, but given the IRL’s history in such matters, I remain worried that the ugly stick will still be used in the final design process. But, judge for your self and check out the video. BTW, the existence of the video and the comments made in the IRL press conference about the IRL’s future car plans stand in conflict with Sanguin's view that the IRLs new car initiative is “just a piece of paper”.

http://www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=9686

One last thing I want is for IndyCar/ChampCar drivers to be famous in America again for something other than finishing fourth in the Indy 500… or being on ‘Dancing With the Stars”… or crashing all the time… or having goofy looking shoving matches with helmets on.

But what I want probably doesn’t matter as much as what you want.

So... What happens next?

[jimispeed]

What happens next? Champcar finally steps up and gets an extremely active promotional campaign made for television.....

[MAX_THRUST]

Intersting reading some of the above. Unfortunately like many others CCWS isn't cutting it at all this year. I have been away for a while, and to catch up with CCWS in ASSEN to hear that the race in Phoenix is gone, well that kinda sums up everything doesn't it. (the Assen race looked packed out, great crowd. Belgium didn't look so good though).

I just typed a whole load of stuff up about this topic, then deleted it. Whats the point the whole thing is a joke!!!!!

Why should any company be interested in sponsoring a two bit series, (IRL or CCWS).

[beachbum]

So... What happens next?
First, fans on internet forums will reenact the same battles from the last 10 years over and over again with the same results. The same arguments will be trotted out and rehashed with no conclusion. A fanatical supporter will attack anyone who disagrees with their view of the CC world and call them a troll (or worse). The fan with a gripe will accuse the cheerleaders with having their head in the sand (or elsewhere). Why?

The sports world is changing. The world is changing. No sports entertainment will grow if it holds no attraction to the non-fanatic, non-racing public. The thoughts of a few internet fanatics and critics mean almost nothing in the marketplace. The question should be asked "what do casual racing sports fans expect to see"?

IMHO, the problem today with CCWS is that it is one of the best racing series that no one knows about. It has perhaps one of the best matched fields of teams and drivers of any series. So why is no one watching and no one seems to care?

The casual fan watches to be entertained. They expect a professionally run event and series that runs smoothly, gives them information about what is happening, and has interesting people involved. Sadly, Champ Car falls short on nearly every one of those points. Events get canceled, the schedule has no continuity, they have alienated the media so we get little information, we learn very little about the people as they keep changing, and the series sometimes just comes off as a bunch of amateurs. The power to pass debacle at Assen is a perfect example. This system has been in use all year and they still can't get it right? That is inexcusable. Where are the priorities?

They seem to be a sound ship with some leaks and yet no rudder to get them to port.

Ok, so what happens next? No one seems to know what the Amigos expect to happen next, but if the series is to grow, it has to address some fundamental issues. Anyone who has ever been in a successful business (and racing is a business) knows there are certain elements to success.

1. Give the customer something they want. Actually CCWS does a good job here as the racing is mostly very good.
2. Treat the customer well. Here they can do better. Media coverage from TV to print is uneven and sometimes lacking, so the customer has trouble getting information. They don't always treat the fan as a honored partner.
3. Marketing. Even a crappy company can survive if they market well and create a positive image. There are many poor run companies that thrive because they has created a perception of success. As for the marketing in CC? No comment needed.
4. Have some quality control and problem solving systems in place. Here they fall flat on their face. Silly technical problems like the PTP problem reappear, there has been a number of engine blowups (in a controlled spec series it should be very rare), they seem surprised too often when an event is canceled or something goes wrong, and they seem to repeat errors over and over again. Who is piloting the ship? Cottman seems to be the first to actually address some of the the problems, but is he too little too late?
5. Consistent long range plans. Every company needs to forecast their future. Almost every decision and plan relies on the forecast being accurate, complete, and achievable. Some business actions take a long time to achieve, and the path can't wonder or the goal will never be reached.

The last point seems to be the biggest problem with Champ Car. The amigos had a five year plan, but it seems to change every year. When one thing works, that suddenly becomes the target. First it was street racing festivals. Then someone realized just how expensive they were to put on and how much they relied on local funding. Now, with the success or Zolder and Assen, it suddenly looks like the international market is the goal. The hints in the latest press lead to a conclusion that the international market is the focus. Will CC leave the US for other markets? It sounds that way.

Tbars said it best about the equipment. It isn't about the cars or high tech or low tech or the spec cars or non-spec cars. It isn't about aero subtleties or downforce. It is about putting on a good show. It is about getting the fans interested in the people, interested in watching, interesting in seeing something that tickles their senses. Most casual fans couldn't tell the difference between a Lola, a Panoz, a Dallara, a McLaren, or a Ferrari. They are all just open wheel race cars with wings. But they can tell the difference in the quality of the show around the cars and people.

So, what happens next? Until CC can decide who they are and what they are, much of the sports public will be confused. Are they a street racing league? Are they the real legacy of open wheel racing in the US? Are they an international series, mostly based outside of the US? Are they a pinnacle sport or a temporary holding area for drivers looking for a place to work until something else opens up?

Some fans have simply thrown up they hands and walked away. The dismal TV ratings and lack of media coverage seems to support the idea that no one cares much anymore. Some will blame other series (and people) , but any company that doesn't focus inward and fix the internal problems doesn't have to worry about the competition. They will destroy themselves from within.

Champ Car still has an opportunity to fix the ship and sail into the sunset. But until it has a rudder, and a captain, it will circle around the fringes of the sports world until no one cares any more.

[sanguin]

On the subject of “What Happens Next” it was an interesting weekend. I am encouraged to see signs of life at both the CC and IRL races with healthy crowds and good-looking events.

Uh no, Belle Isle only has 25k seats and they were not full,even the freebies can't get them to watch the IRL product. CC wins this one by a long shot.


On the subject of this thread, “What Happens Next?”, I saw stories about both the Amigos media conference on the future of ChampCar and on the Indy Car State of the Series press conference. What a contrast in tone and content...

In answer to David St. Hubbins' question about what I think will happen next?

Time will tell if the IRL guys are spewing spin like the CC G5 fly boys did from their vacation in Europe but from what they hinted at, I do think they are getting ready to throw some Tonybucks out there to lure some CC teams over to the IRL.

News flash! everyone that wants to be in IRL is already there and TG doesn't have enough money to throw at anybody else, he has to keep throwing it just to keep the teams he has going and to fill the grid at the 500. TG is out of bullets. This business plan is stupid and based on kiling another series, doomed to fail. There is nothing great about the IRL's struggle to keep 18 cars on the track.


So what I see is a compromise where TG and the IRL run the regular IndyCar season in North America and the Amigos run a fall and winter league in Europe, Asia… wherever. All should be under one set of rules and one brand but I can’t really see it being Champ Car’s. My hunch is that all this will ultimately be defined by TG and the IndyCar Series because they hold the most cards.

What cards? No one wants Richmond, Kentucky, Iowa, Nashville,Homestead.Do you see anyone that is envious of the IRL? You make me laugh. The 500 is failing every year in attendance and ratings.The schedule is not what anybody wants except your diehard IRL fans, all 20 off them.And then you all sing RP's praises for giving that crappy Belle Isle race and taking away MIS.

We have LB, Cleveland, Houston,San Jose, RA,Las Vegas, Portand in the US, all tracks TG wants.

No ,give this one to CC.


It was interesting in that Robert Clarke seemed committed to the Indy Car Series and TG seemed to like the idea that the cars need changing. Good... I guess, but given the IRL’s history in such matters, I remain worried that the ugly stick will still be used in the final design process. Sanguin's view that the IRLs new car initiative is “just a piece of paper”.

Yes it is just a piece of paper ,a design by some students? Are you serious? TG has made announcements for a new car ,when was that ? back in 2004? Remember, he had to cancel because that's when the wheels starting falling off the IRL, everyone was leaving. Honda is so "committed" until they follow Toyota into nascar. So far they won't be in the IRL in 2011.

I find it interesting ,that you suck up all TG's empty promises and yet CC has delivered on a number of theirs, new car,its real and its good,new car and revived Atlantics with the drivers moving up to CC. TV contract, new events, new teams,new sponsors,secured events like LB and Toronto,2 successful European events. That's good for 4 years.

Please do tell what TG has accomplished in 12 years of IRL? Lost manufacturers, teams ,sponsors and tracks.Scraping together a grid by putting Roth and Milka in as backmarkers.Depending on honda to bring in cut-rate sponsorship and pay the salaries of the old CART drivers.So many freebies given out to get an audience at the tracks they will never be able to get anyone to buy a ticket again. What ever...

No, CC is not going to save TG or his IRL now. What happens next? CC continues to define who,what and where the best ways are to grow their series. They have a good base in the US, and can continue to expand to become the WORLD series.

Meanwhile TG still continues to limp along in front of empty stands jonesing after CC.

[DrJackMiller]

Dear Sanguin, (or should I address you as E. Sanguin Cipponym?), please take a break from your Dutch Daydream and ask yourself if anyone really believes what you are writing here. The word "delusional" defines your view from where I sit. Who on earth is looking longingly at the so-called business that is Champ Car and saying to themselves "wow, brilliant!" outside of the four self-impressed Amigos? Okay, I agree that IndyCar has problems that are deep and real but that is not the issue in my book nor is it justification of ChampCar's whacky, wandering trip to near-zero credability, (tragic) cultural-irrelevance and almost certain extinction. For me, and I hope for anyone who really cares about what is best for American Openwheel racing, the issue is: What is now possible if The Split is not in the way? Okay, people with extreme views like you have will certainly lose voice if The Split ends -- especially now. So I can see why you attack because this is a fight for your ego's survival as the upsidedown world you live in looks like it is about to fade into history. All the die hard Amigo lovers probably feel this way, but for the rest of us who suffered through guys like you and the Amigos who were on the IRL side in the begining, hey, your point of view has had its day. The Fab Four have also had their chance to prove they can cut it and just like Sarah Fisher, they haven't and it is time for them to move on. 300 Million Americans can't be wrong, eh? Just like Jack Long did for the IRL in 1996, you are selling something that has a stink on it. People usually won't buy something that stinks unless they stink too.

[OWFan19]

Dear Sanguin, (or should I address you as E. Sanguin Cipponym?), please take a break from your Dutch Daydream and ask yourself if anyone really believes what you are writing here. The word "delusional" defines your view from where I sit. Who on earth is looking longingly at the so-called business that is Champ Car and saying to themselves "wow, brilliant!" outside of the four self-impressed Amigos? Okay, I agree that IndyCar has problems that are deep and real but that is not the issue in my book nor is it justification of ChampCar's whacky, wandering trip to near-zero credability, (tragic) cultural-irrelevance and almost certain extinction. For me, and I hope for anyone who really cares about what is best for American Openwheel racing, the issue is: What is now possible if The Split is not in the way? Okay, people with extreme views like you have will certainly lose voice if The Split ends -- especially now. So I can see why you attack because this is a fight for your ego's survival as the upsidedown world you live in looks like it is about to fade into history. All the die hard Amigo lovers probably feel this way, but for the rest of us who suffered through guys like you and the Amigos who were on the IRL side in the begining, hey, your point of view has had its day. The Fab Four have also had their chance to prove they can cut it and just like Sarah Fisher, they haven't and it is time for them to move on. 300 Million Americans can't be wrong, eh? Just like Jack Long did for the IRL in 1996, you are selling something that has a stink on it. People usually won't buy something that stinks unless they stink too.

Like he said, "the IRL is jonesing after Champ Car." Delusional is an understatement, I was thinking loser. Sanquin, who I think is Steve Johnson or someone else heavily invested into Champ Car, needs to get a clue. I would be supprised if anyone in hear actually reads his post anymore. The Belle Isle race was packed yesterday, I dont know where he gets his numbers.

[heelntoe]

Dear Sanguin, (or should I address you as E. Sanguin Cipponym?), please take a break from your Dutch Daydream and ask yourself if anyone really believes what you are writing here. The word "delusional" defines your view from where I sit. Who on earth is looking longingly at the so-called business that is Champ Car and saying to themselves "wow, brilliant!" outside of the four self-impressed Amigos? Okay, I agree that IndyCar has problems that are deep and real but that is not the issue in my book nor is it justification of ChampCar's whacky, wandering trip to near-zero credability, (tragic) cultural-irrelevance and almost certain extinction. For me, and I hope for anyone who really cares about what is best for American Openwheel racing, the issue is: What is now possible if The Split is not in the way? Okay, people with extreme views like you have will certainly lose voice if The Split ends -- especially now. So I can see why you attack because this is a fight for your ego's survival as the upsidedown world you live in looks like it is about to fade into history. All the die hard Amigo lovers probably feel this way, but for the rest of us who suffered through guys like you and the Amigos who were on the IRL side in the begining, hey, your point of view has had its day. The Fab Four have also had their chance to prove they can cut it and just like Sarah Fisher, they haven't and it is time for them to move on. 300 Million Americans can't be wrong, eh? Just like Jack Long did for the IRL in 1996, you are selling something that has a stink on it. People usually won't buy something that stinks unless they stink too.

Thanks...I really didn't want to take any time out of my last day of vacation to summarize what you've done for those of us who know better about the travesty that is CCWS :)

[geek49203]

Boy, here is a big one for me.

I have been involved with a number of technically-oriented industries in my days. And the best lesson I have ever learned is that it DOES NOT start with the equipment. The equipment is never the key. PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS THE KEY. And I believe motorsports is no different whatsoever.

Many, many CCWS fans went into 2007 with this attitude that the DP-01 would be the savior of the series, "The Future of Racing." That, IMO, is a crock. What a short sighted, ignorant statement. Look how 2007 has turned out. Misdirected loyalitites. Misdirected priorities. I give you the 2007 "breakout year" CCWS series as proof.

FORGET ABOUT THE CARS. Forget about the chassis, forget about the engines, forget about the tires. All of those things, in ANY motorsports series, are nothing more than selecting a vendor, something that has to happen in every business in the world every day.

(snip)

What do the fans want, Dr. Jack?

They want heros who capture their imagination.

I agree w/ your statements whole-heartedly.

I know that my broken record refrain angers hard-core car guys, but I'm explaining the facts of life in auto racing in our era.

The DP-01 isn't the key to, or even a major part of, CCWS's success. Most race fans, aside from the rabid CCWS fans, couldn't pick it out of a lot full of open-wheel cars. The fans don't care about turbo vs non-turbo either. CCWS could be running stock minivans for all the good that the DP-01 does them right now.

It doesn't even matter about driver talent.

What matters is that sponsors find a driver that can market their products. That driver becomes spokesmodel for that product, and the racing series. Witness what, say, Pepsi has done for Jeff Gordon, or what STP did for Indy back in the 1960's. When a sponsor makes a car a celebrity, good things happen to that driver's racing series. When that driver is an A-list celebrity, known by more than race fans -- say, a Richard Petty in the 1970's, or Mario and AJ in the 1960's -- then the series has a chance of breaking into the big time.

The nice part of Indy is that they still have the marketing concentration to make a driver into a star. CCWS lacks that ability at this point, and until they find a way to make a driver into a A-list celebrity, they will be a higher form of Star Mazda.

[sanguin]

Okay, I agree that IndyCar has problems that are deep and real

I agree.


Okay, people with extreme views like you have will certainly lose voice if The Split ends -- especially now. So I can see why you attack because this is a fight for your ego's survival as the upsidedown world you live in looks like it is about to fade into history.

This isn't about me or any poster, this is about the IRL wanting CC.It's true, the whole thread is about how CC's owners should give everything to TG.

It gives CC much credibility.

[FlatChatRacer]

What Happens Next?

Well, I watched Assen and really enjoyed it. The crowd looked good and even though there was little passing, it was a tactical race much like modern Formula One. However, I can't help thinking that this is not the long term answer for Champ Car.

CCWS may well decide to have more non-Nafta races, which pay the bills and permit profitability. However, this means abandoning any hope of being a force in American Open Wheel and capturing NAFTA based sponsorship.

Now, a global model may work, if they plan carefully and target sponsors who want a global presence and can't afford Formula One. However, to capture this new money, they still have to be more professional and prove to potential sponsors that they are providing value for money. In effect, they would be marketing themselves as Formula One "Lite". If that's the way the CCWS leaders want to go then fine, but as an ardent F1 lover, I will take the real thing every time.

I fell in love with CART/Champ Car because of the multi discipline racing. Road Course, Street Course, Superspeedway and Bullring Oval. I was intrigued by the close racing and personalities. Truthfully, in any given race over 50% of all starters had a genuine chance of winning, because of the nature of the rules, cars and circuits. Finally, it was professionally run.

I support CCWS, but the leaders make it hard for you to have any confidence in what they are doing and thus the future of the sport.

I have never worked in the motorsport industry, so I really can't comment on how difficult it must be to manage and run a racing series. However, I work in Investment Banking and have for the past 14 years. I am judged on results and delivery. If I didn't deliver, then I would be fired. I manage complex projects and deal with clients every day where millions of dollars are involved. I have to make plans and decisions and think carefully about the right way forward.

Forgive me, but surely the CCWS leaders must make plans and have targets as well? Is it me, or does it appear to anyone else like the leaders are just winging it?

[geek49203]

I agree.



This isn't about me or any poster, this is about the IRL wanting CC.It's true, the whole thread is about how CC's owners should give everything to TG.

It gives CC much credibility.

I can tell you, directly, from what IRL people have told me this summer -- TG doesn't "want CC". They might take one or two races, and would like to have a few teams, and would welcome the absence of the "split" distraction, but there isn't much on the CCWS side that TG wants.

AS I've said, TG isn't waiting for CCWS to "give" anything. He's waiting for the bankruptcy.

[cartslut]

Okay, I give up.

Is Dr. Jack really Chris Pook in disguise?

[john2112]

So, what happens next?

Along with securing their “bombshell” title sponsor and continuing support from Mazda, CCWS’ fate is hinged on China.



The Honeywell Turbo Technologies Shanghai Global Technical Services group is located on the site of the Honeywell R&D Center in Shanghai. It was established in August 2002 and has grown to almost 140 employees, and it will continue to grow. The group consists of four Design groups, an Engine and Turbocharger Test Facility; a Metallurgy Lab, a Prototype assembly group, a Structure & Fatigue group, a Rotor dynamics group, a Vibro-acoustics group, an Aerodynamics & Reliability group, Configuration Control and a Product Engineering Group. Our task is to design and develop Turbocharger and Charge-Air-Cooler products. The purpose of the Turbocharger is to reduce the exhaust emissions by allowing a reduction in engine displacement without a noticeable loss of engine power and to improve the drivability of the vehicle. We provide our employees with technical and business training, both in Shanghai and overseas, which allows the group here to provide expert technical and professional services to both our internal and external customers. Eventually we expect Shanghai Global Technical Services to become one of our premier technical centers, not only due to our business development strategy, but also due to our positive working attitude.


Sanders continued, “The Mazda and AER engineers are working closely with Honeywell Turbo Technologies on the development of a new Garrett motorsports turbocharger design for this engine program. The overall LMP2 program is driven by Mazda engineering, as we use motorsports to help develop future advanced technologies with the potential to transfer over to our production vehicles.”



SHANGHAI--Mazda Motor Corporation today held an opening ceremony for its new Shanghai-based company, Mazda Motor (Shanghai) Business Management & Consulting Co., Ltd., established to integrate its business operations in China.
The new company, more commonly referred to as Mazda China Operations (MCO), was inaugurated at 10 a.m. with an official opening ceremony, tape cutting and a launch party. About twenty new staff and Mazda executives, including John G. Parker, Representative Director & Executive Vice President of Mazda Motor Corporation, attended the event. Later in the afternoon at a nearby hotel, approximately 230 guests--including Shanghai municipal government officials, attendees from the Consulate General of Japan in Shanghai, Mazda’s corporate partners in China, and suppliers--took part in the festivities. The MCO office is located on the twentieth floor of the Shanghai Information Tower, in the Pudong business district.
“We are celebrating the MCO office opening today, and I am very pleased to say this also signals the start of Mazda’s full-scale operations in the Chinese market,” said Parker. “As Mazda’s China headquarters, this company will play a prominent role in coordinating our business activity in this important market, and the office and staff are an integral part of attaining positive results here. June first is also Children’s Day, so I would like all of you to keep a close eye on Mazda’s ‘new child’ that has just been born here in China.”
Mazda has set a mid-term goal to build a framework that can produce and sell 300,000 units in 2010 as it sets out to expand its China business.
To achieve its goals in China, Mazda confirmed on January 7, 2005, that it would participate in a joint venture with Changan Ford to build a manufacturing facility in Nanjing, to expand its production capacity. On May 25, Mazda announced that it had gained government approval to establish a joint venture engine company project in Nanjing with the Changan Automotive Group and the Ford Motor Company. Additionally, on March 1, Mazda jointly established the FAW Mazda Motor Sales Co. Ltd. (FMSC) with its Ford and First Auto Works (FAW) partners to further strengthen its sales system.
Mazda plans to augment its product lineup by introducing eight new models to the Chinese market in the next three years. As a start, Mazda will begin sales this summer of its four-door, four-seat, rotary-engined brand icon RX-8 sports car.
MCO was established in January 2005 to coordinate all areas of Mazda’s China business operations. Kiyoshi Ozaki, Director and Senior Executive Officer at Mazda in charge of China business, was appointed Chairman of the Board of MCO. Satoshi Tachikake, General manager of Mazda’s China Business Division, became President and CEO of the new company.
Mazda’s production and sales have demonstrated strong growth since its business operations in China gained momentum in 2000. Amid intensified competition in the Chinese passenger vehicle market, Mazda sold 97,132 units in 2004 (up 21 percent from the previous year), the third consecutive year of sales growth ahead of total market demand. In 2005, despite a January-April drop of 4.2 percent in demand, Mazda has sold 42,514 units in wholesales (an increase of 25 percent over the previous year’s pace) with sustained high sales growth.



-John

[sanguin]

I can tell you, directly, from what IRL people have told me this summer -- TG doesn't "want CC". They might take one or two races, and would like to have a few teams, and would welcome the absence of the "split" distraction, but there isn't much on the CCWS side that TG wants.

AS I've said, TG isn't waiting for CCWS to "give" anything. He's waiting for the bankruptcy.

That's why TG will fail, that's a stupid business plan. It doesn't take much to plunk down some money and race at the ISC tracks, he inherited IMS and the 500 is failing and RP revived an old CART track. They look like geniuses.They can go ahead and limp along in front of empty stands,that's fine by me.TG would like a lot from CC. I don't see anything CC would want from the IRL.

What the CC owners is much more difficult,what they have accomplished in 4 years is respectable,especially going ahead with the new car. They are actually building a series.not waiting for something else that will not ever happen.That's why they will succeed.

bankruptcy? ,that was 4 years ago, not going to happen again, but ,hey, keep wishing. They crack me up. CC has nothing to worry about.

[Blancvino]

Mods:

Don't you think it's time to shut this thread down?

[beachbum]

Mods:

Don't you think it's time to shut this thread down?
Agreed, please shut this down. It has digressed from a discussion on how to make CC better to the old traditional "blame the other guy" argument. Personally, I DON"T CARE what the other guy is doing. This silly pi**ing war has gone on long enough.

[pvtjoker]

What the CC owners is much more difficult,what they have accomplished in 4 years is respectable,especially going ahead with the new car. They are actually building a series.not waiting for something else that will not ever happen.That's why they will succeed.

b

Respectable? Surely you jest?! Reality check...they cancelled THREE races this year. Next year's "opener" is already in jeopardy. The series is walking a tight rope in my opinion.

[geek49203]

That's why TG will fail, that's a stupid business plan. It doesn't take much to plunk down some money and race at the ISC tracks, he inherited IMS and the 500 is failing and RP revived an old CART track. They look like geniuses.They can go ahead and limp along in front of empty stands,that's fine by me.TG would like a lot from CC. I don't see anything CC would want from the IRL.

What the CC owners is much more difficult,what they have accomplished in 4 years is respectable,especially going ahead with the new car. They are actually building a series.not waiting for something else that will not ever happen.That's why they will succeed.

bankruptcy? ,that was 4 years ago, not going to happen again, but ,hey, keep wishing. They crack me up. CC has nothing to worry about.


Jeez...

First, I said that TG's plan for dealing w/ the CCWS and the "split" is to wait for CCWS to die. That's not their entire plan for their entire operation, just the part that pertains to CCWS. That plan isn't unlike the plan that lots of companies have for their competition.


Second, put down that koolaid, back away from the table. Please go back to school and learn grammar.

Third, the title of this thread is "What happens next." It isn't "CCWS is better than IRL and can beat up your dad too." If you have a thought to post on how to improve CCWS, feel free to post it.

[sanguin]

Respectable? Surely you jest?! Reality check...they cancelled THREE races this year. Next year's "opener" is already in jeopardy.

no its not. You seem to want to believe all the fantasies of the IRL's.

:rolleyes:

[Blancvino]

And have this spill over into other threads? Ummm....no. :D

Ummmm ... just DELETE the posts that get this chacha going. You have the power to stop it and don't. Why?

It's clear the good doctor started the thread to pick a fight and you mods allow it. This is not a discussion, it's a pissing match.

Ban me if you like but this is whacked!

[Mark in Oshawa]

If the Moddy's shut down this thread, they are nuts. This is one of the best threads we have had on this topic in ages. I was away from the computer all Labor Day weekend, so I am not going to try to respond to everything that was said, but I do want to thank "Dr. Jack Miller" for digging up this can of worms and gently nudging the conversation in a direction I have advocated for years. He is asking for a Merger here...and I was beating that drum 3 or 4 years ago and THEN I was abused. I see now a few of you have come around and the hard cores are fading.

Listen, let me put my cred and cards on the table here. I am a volunteer timing and scoring guy, or at least was up til this year. I have worked with SCCA Pro, CART, IMSA, Champ Car, ASA, CASCAR/NASCAR Canada, and the CASC organization in Canada. I know people who work for most of these bodies, and I have been around race tracks all my adult life. I have no money invested, but I am a fan of all types of racing. ALL. I also dislike intensely what Tony George did to this sport in 1995. I was against it then, and I knew why I was against it. It forced me to take a side in a battle that shouldn't have been fought. I also love the Indy 500 and the lore and history that came with it.

So I have been straddling the divide on and off for a few years, for although I hated the IRL in its early years, I have noticed it has come around to being a reasonably well run business. I have watched CART take what was the moral high ground, all the top teams, engine manufacturers and a ton of money and pour into a toilet. I am now watching the CCWS take a lot of money, shore up some of the infrastructure, and then have no focus for marketing, no direction and no competant management. IT is to WEEP.

Some of you need to get a clue. Both of these series are limping along, but the huge difference between the two is the Amigo's are NOT putting their money in any meaningful way into marketing their series to North America. What is more, the Amigo's have quit on the US, and quit on what made their series unique. Now they want to go to Europe, go to markets where F1 has left or gave up, and then get those fans? I can say cash grab my friends, because they are not sharing with the likes of Dale Coyne are they?

No, here is the problems as I see them:

1) Champ Car really has changed direction and focus so many times, no one can believe their new found devotion to Europe now. What about the events that never happened? Is anyone to be fooled by the bad business practices that led to Phoenix failing? Denver? China? My god, the dead bodies are piling up...

2) The IRL, despite a few people's best fanstasies isn't going away. Tony Is spending his money and is willing to spend it if he has to make things happen. This fiction no one is watching the races is just that, fiction. When someone shows me how the crowd at Tremblant is a roaring success and more people show up to Detroit and that is a failure, then I guess I might change my mind, but lets face the reality. Both series get fans at some venues, and others don't draw as well. No one is accurate with their attendance figures, but I do know from watching IRL events and CCWS events on TV, I would hardly say the IRL is failing. I would also point out, yet again they are getting PAID for their TV product. CCWS is getting NOTHING for their TV, while TG pays to keep his series going if he has to, but he is getting money from TV and hasn't lost the confidence of the networks. The TV situation is the millstone around the Amigo's neck, and going to Europe isn't helping.

3) No one wants to deal with 2 leagues of racing. This was SO obvious in 1995, but is now part of the reality that people ignore. The casual fan doesn't care about the differences, and doesn't want to figure it out. He turns on NASCAR, and they promote their drivers and the magic of the sport. Here, we try to ignore the reality that the guys you are seeing, about half of them woudln't have rides in a strong unified OW series in North America. Strength of field, whether in names that people have heard of, or just plain depth is the problem that leads to marketability and selling the series. Every year CCWS has to explain to its fans who the hell half of their drivers are? People are saying "but I liked Andrew Ranger, why did he lose his ride" are never given answers that make sense, and they get ticked and they go watch a series that doesn't treat its talent like toilet paper. If any of you CCWS pom pom waving types care to explain to me why we take half our field and dump it for new names only on financial reasons can be seen as a good thing, have at it.


NO, Here we are having a frank discretion about what is wrong with CCWS, the IRL and OW in general. In short, this debate should be joined in an intelligent way and kept going, for as long as it takes. What many of you guys who refuse to see the folly in this are missing is NEITHER series is making money, but they keep up the fiction that they are just steps away from doing it. IRL purists claim the Amigo's are just steps away from bankruptcy here, CCWS guys say if Honda is gone, TG will fold. Well, people, this layman see's the former, but not the latter. Tony has spent what it takes for 12 years now, and he out lasted CART, so don't go smoking any more dope celebrating him giving up now.

I believe the Amigo's will sell to the IRL, and end it all. I don't like that scenario, but they have quit leading this series in a meaningful way, and I didn't know better, I would swear GF and KK have let Gentilozzi run this series this year. It has all the earmarks of a Gentilozzi operation.

WE need a merger of some sort, and the best thing us Champ Car fans can hope for is that some of the best parts of Champ Car management and events make it through the merger. I may not like George, but he has been proven right on this much, the people running CART didn't know what they were doing. It appears now the CCWS guys dont' seem to have much more of a clue. When you make Tony the smartest guy in the room, you are really done.....

[DrJackMiller]

If the Moddy's shut down this thread, they are nuts. This is one of the best threads we have had on this topic in ages. I was away from the computer all Labor Day weekend, so I am not going to try to respond to everything that was said, but I do want to thank "Dr. Jack Miller" for digging up this can of worms and gently nudging the conversation in a direction I have advocated for years. He is asking for a Merger here...and I was beating that drum 3 or 4 years ago and THEN I was abused. I see now a few of you have come around and the hard cores are fading.

Listen, let me put my cred and cards on the table here. I am a volunteer timing and scoring guy, or at least was up til this year. I have worked with SCCA Pro, CART, IMSA, Champ Car, ASA, CASCAR/NASCAR Canada, and the CASC organization in Canada. I know people who work for most of these bodies, and I have been around race tracks all my adult life. I have no money invested, but I am a fan of all types of racing. ALL. I also dislike intensely what Tony George did to this sport in 1995. I was against it then, and I knew why I was against it. It forced me to take a side in a battle that shouldn't have been fought. I also love the Indy 500 and the lore and history that came with it.

So I have been straddling the divide on and off for a few years, for although I hated the IRL in its early years, I have noticed it has come around to being a reasonably well run business. I have watched CART take what was the moral high ground, all the top teams, engine manufacturers and a ton of money and pour into a toilet. I am now watching the CCWS take a lot of money, shore up some of the infrastructure, and then have no focus for marketing, no direction and no competant management. IT is to WEEP.

Some of you need to get a clue. Both of these series are limping along, but the huge difference between the two is the Amigo's are NOT putting their money in any meaningful way into marketing their series to North America. What is more, the Amigo's have quit on the US, and quit on what made their series unique. Now they want to go to Europe, go to markets where F1 has left or gave up, and then get those fans? I can say cash grab my friends, because they are not sharing with the likes of Dale Coyne are they?

No, here is the problems as I see them:

1) Champ Car really has changed direction and focus so many times, no one can believe their new found devotion to Europe now. What about the events that never happened? Is anyone to be fooled by the bad business practices that led to Phoenix failing? Denver? China? My god, the dead bodies are piling up...

2) The IRL, despite a few people's best fanstasies isn't going away. Tony Is spending his money and is willing to spend it if he has to make things happen. This fiction no one is watching the races is just that, fiction. When someone shows me how the crowd at Tremblant is a roaring success and more people show up to Detroit and that is a failure, then I guess I might change my mind, but lets face the reality. Both series get fans at some venues, and others don't draw as well. No one is accurate with their attendance figures, but I do know from watching IRL events and CCWS events on TV, I would hardly say the IRL is failing. I would also point out, yet again they are getting PAID for their TV product. CCWS is getting NOTHING for their TV, while TG pays to keep his series going if he has to, but he is getting money from TV and hasn't lost the confidence of the networks. The TV situation is the millstone around the Amigo's neck, and going to Europe isn't helping.

3) No one wants to deal with 2 leagues of racing. This was SO obvious in 1995, but is now part of the reality that people ignore. The casual fan doesn't care about the differences, and doesn't want to figure it out. He turns on NASCAR, and they promote their drivers and the magic of the sport. Here, we try to ignore the reality that the guys you are seeing, about half of them woudln't have rides in a strong unified OW series in North America. Strength of field, whether in names that people have heard of, or just plain depth is the problem that leads to marketability and selling the series. Every year CCWS has to explain to its fans who the hell half of their drivers are? People are saying "but I liked Andrew Ranger, why did he lose his ride" are never given answers that make sense, and they get ticked and they go watch a series that doesn't treat its talent like toilet paper. If any of you CCWS pom pom waving types care to explain to me why we take half our field and dump it for new names only on financial reasons can be seen as a good thing, have at it.


NO, Here we are having a frank discretion about what is wrong with CCWS, the IRL and OW in general. In short, this debate should be joined in an intelligent way and kept going, for as long as it takes. What many of you guys who refuse to see the folly in this are missing is NEITHER series is making money, but they keep up the fiction that they are just steps away from doing it. IRL purists claim the Amigo's are just steps away from bankruptcy here, CCWS guys say if Honda is gone, TG will fold. Well, people, this layman see's the former, but not the latter. Tony has spent what it takes for 12 years now, and he out lasted CART, so don't go smoking any more dope celebrating him giving up now.

I believe the Amigo's will sell to the IRL, and end it all. I don't like that scenario, but they have quit leading this series in a meaningful way, and I didn't know better, I would swear GF and KK have let Gentilozzi run this series this year. It has all the earmarks of a Gentilozzi operation.

WE need a merger of some sort, and the best thing us Champ Car fans can hope for is that some of the best parts of Champ Car management and events make it through the merger. I may not like George, but he has been proven right on this much, the people running CART didn't know what they were doing. It appears now the CCWS guys dont' seem to have much more of a clue. When you make Tony the smartest guy in the room, you are really done.....

Mark, Amen to what is posted above. I have loved the clairity and sincerity of all you have written over the years. What you write comes from that good place that is at the heart of what makes this sport so special. It is all about a passion for progress.

I came to this board and started this thread because I feel the tipping point is finally before us and we all need to consider "what happens next?".

Personally, I just want the future back on track both in the litteral and the figuative sense.

I feel that everyone who loves our sport, (depspite all its current warts) needs to burry the hatchet and focus on what will make it great again and not spend another selfish moment trying to justify the failed visions (from both sides) that created this sorry mess.

There are good things and good people in each series and the time is now here for all of us to put our egos aside and pull in the same direction for betterment of the sport. That will take inspired leadership from someone... and that is the real problem in my mind. People inside and outide the sport need something and someone to believe in and more simply put, believe.

The right person with the right attitude, credability and vision will make all the difference in this battered and brusied world we all care so much about.

But who fills those shoes?

It isn't Chris Pook, BTW! (and no, I am not the Pookster!)

How can all this play out in a good way?

What happens next?

[geek49203]

(snip)

How can all this play out in a good way?

What happens next?

I think that we need to look at modern motor sports in a different way here.

Auto racing is fueled by sponsor dollars, not methanol or ethanol or whatever. In a great world (in NASCAR land?) you've got sponsors that make your drivers into stars -- witness what Allstate has done to Kasey Kahne. Therefore, you have to make the series into a sponsor's dream.

NASCAR got the attention of sponsors 'cause you could sponsor a car with lots of surface panels that could be clearly read (due to size and speed of the vehicle) on any part of the track. ESPN wasn't real picky about showing sponsors logos on their broadcasts (unlike Fox today), and sponsors realized that (circa 1998) they could put $5 million into a top-running car and have tons of exposure on TV. Of course, now things are different, and quite frankly, you're starting to see some of the problems.

So, we need to build a series where the benefits of the exposure far outweigh the costs to participate. The DP01 was a step in the right direction, NOT because it was better looking than the IRL car, or faster, but rather because it contained costs and regulated competition. Ditto w/ the Cosworth effort - the show can be controlled by the sanctioning body, and everyones costs are contained. That part is in place.

Sponsors need to feel like having their driver on a TV commercial will sell more products. That means that the teams must make TV presence part of the selection process. Right now, the driver w/ the dollars is the driver that runs, and sometimes they aren't the most PR-friendly people.

[Easy Drifter]

I have been around this sport longer than most and have done just about all there is to do except own a major team. I have even worked alongside Ron Dennis! He was a F1 mechanic then and I was the Gopher.
IMO both series are in trouble and I do not have the answer. New cars are not. Who cares except for fanatics?
Locally a NAPCAR rain out gets more space in the papers than an IRL or CC race or even F1 results.
I think part of the problem is driver recognition or lack of. Joe Blow fan and even non fans know the names of several NAPCAR drivers. I see decals, caps, jackets and tee shirts for NAPCAR all the time. I have even seen WOO tee shirts. This is not at the track but in this area (Georgian Bay, Midland , Orillia). I have yet to see any CC or IRL anything.
That said, on driver recognition I see far more promotion and recognition of IRL drivers than CC. CC has PT and Seabass, who they are losing, and even they are not household names. With all the hype most people know who Danica is. Hornish, Kaanan and Marco Andretti are fairly well known as are Michael and Penske. Beyond that who knows the rest, even Franchitti or Dixon? OWR needs to make there drivers better known. IRL seems to do better aided of course by the 500.
At this late stage to rebuild OWR is going to take time and hard hard work with results, not hype. It is also going to require one series however that may occur. I know who I don't want to run it and that is TG and/or the Amigos or NAPCAR. However, I expect one will end up in charge and it may well be NAPCAR which will always relegate OWR to 3rd rate.
Not that the above has accomplished anything but to let me blow off steam but those are my thoughts.
By the way I lurked on this forum for some time before I joined and decided not to use my name as IMO there was too much nastiness toward posters. I do post on other forums under my name and I have told one regular poster here who I am. I am nobody important but now just a fan. My only claim to fame is I have been around this sport (business) for over 50 years and have become very cynical.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Jack, Drifter and a few others are saying what I have been saying for a while. The sport needs to heal, and it needs to get a lot further down the road in a hurry if it is to be relevent. We know what we don't want, but the reality we are getting is much closer to what we don't want than we would like.

Those of you who blindly believe in the "vision" of Champ Car and what is is doing should be chagrined that people involved in the sport such as Jack or Drifter are coming out of hiding to say what they are saying. I don't know either one personally, but I do know that I know many who think just like them who ARE involved in racing.

I am a fan, but I am a fan who has been around racing long enough from close enough to the inside to see what people are thinking, and no one really likes where Champ Car or the IRL are going.

[pvtjoker]

no its not. You seem to want to believe all the fantasies of the IRL's.

:rolleyes:


Yep. Maybe I'll start disbelieving when they start canceling races mid-season.

How can you HONESTLY say CC is maintaining a level headed business plan when the current CC regime routinely promotes and then cancel races and barely attract sponsors to the series? You can't. While I appreciate your bullish approach to CC you 'll never convince most that the series is as healthy or rosy as you paint it. The series isn't quite in the "crapper" (yet), but they are hardly on the road of prosparity. IMO, the series is mirroring the latter days of Trans-Am more and more each day.

I guess were in need of ANOTHER 5-year plan. Only this plan will bank on Europe being be its savior. We'll see how it pans out. I know one thing, if this is the case, NA won't be watching the series with quite the same vigor as it does now. Let the "F1-lite" comparisons begin...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Joker, rarely do I agree with you, although sometimes partially I agree with you....but this time...you hit it right on the head man....

[fan-veteran]

Actually i can see at least one positive matter - dropping the rivalry between teams on a technical basis and as a consequence the very high and the pointless expenditure. So i think the specification chassis is good, very good, not only for price but also for every technical (and safety) regulations of interest. Of course this can be dangerous by eliminating the diversity of manufacturers. Nevertheless , the positive direction is easily seen - cut the cost of cars/racing to the (reasonable of course) limit.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think to bring things on to going forward, we should look at what will happen, and what we want to happen.

I want there to be some sort of merger with one series that makes economic sense.

The reality is, unless the CCWS changes a few things and learns to market their series to the same market (rather than chasing niches or markets), they wont be a success, at least not to the extent some of you think they are now.

CCWS can survive but it will take more capital, a good schedule and sticking to the plan. The only plan they have used so far is Chaos...

I think a schedule that is about 50% North American, 50% other MIGHT work, but it should have been an evolution, and not be at the expense of American Venues. It isn't that I am in love with America, but it is because this is, for better or worse an American based series, and that is part of the marketing angle that even KK is admitting to using right now.

I think CART had the right idea going to Europe, but they didn't stay, and Champ Car was wrong not to follow up in the same markets. Now they are back, and Assen is a great event, Zolder might be, but Eurospeedway put on a great show, had full stands........and was forgotten about. Changing the agenda over a 3 year period like this, while marketing American racing to Europe is just silly. Nothing was more American than oval racing...and yet KK is running from that legacy.

No, to become f1 lite isn't the future. Race in Europe, Asia, and OZ, and do it at good venues, but don't dump on what history you hate, and promote the stuff you like....

[David St. Hubbins]

But who fills those shoes?

I give up. Who? You?

I'd like to know what the insiders (of which you claim to be-while it's possible, of course, but anyone can claim that on a message board...let's say I give you a 50/50 chance of being what you say) are doing to make this situation go forward.

[sanguin]

I think I know what happens next, but I'm not saying ....yet.

:s mokin:

[O&amp;A Virus]

I think I know what happens next, but I'm not saying ....yet.

:s mokin:


We can hardly wait.

[heelntoe]

I give up. Who? You?

I'd like to know what the insiders (of which you claim to be-while it's possible, of course, but anyone can claim that on a message board...let's say I give you a 50/50 chance of being what you say) are doing to make this situation go forward.

Actually, I think Doc said he was a former insider as I am as well. And why is there so much scepticism of the credibility of those of us who have been involved, are no longer, but still want to follow from a distance? Posters have questioned why I would come to this site to comment. Let me ask those folks, if you had stood strongly behind the Principals of CCWS (and in many of our cases, spent serious time & $) and they had treated you as they have so many people, would you not have an interest in seeing the outcome of this series...sort of like an MPG or JDSU Shareholder? Let's throw out some of us, such as Tommy Kendall, John Thawley, Emmerson Fittipaldi (yes, Emmo too), Wendy Gabers, David Clare, Todd Benne, myself, Gordon Kirby, etc.

St. Hubbins, I can't speak for Doc or most of the others, but i can say that many of us simply don't believe that Champcar can go forward the way it's being run...to now hear that Tags never received his '04 $ from PG (as a series owner) cements the feelings of many of us. And to Skid Marx, Garyshell and those who feel we should all bear our identities, you folks clearly aren't current or past insiders or you would know the answer to why those of us with an ounce of intelligence would not want that. if it's jealosy, BELIEVE me, it's not something you want to have...and for those who would still want to push, I, for one, can answer questions about the time I was there that no one other than an insider could answer...so bring it on if you must...and eat crow when you know the truth!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually, I think Doc said he was a former insider as I am as well. And why is there so much scepticism of the credibility of those of us who have been involved, are no longer, but still want to follow from a distance? Posters have questioned why I would come to this site to comment. Let me ask those folks, if you had stood strongly behind the Principals of CCWS (and in many of our cases, spent serious time & $) and they had treated you as they have so many people, would you not have an interest in seeing the outcome of this series...sort of like an MPG or JDSU Shareholder? Let's throw out some of us, such as Tommy Kendall, John Thawley, Emmerson Fittipaldi (yes, Emmo too), Wendy Gabers, David Clare, Todd Benne, myself, Gordon Kirby, etc.

St. Hubbins, I can't speak for Doc or most of the others, but i can say that many of us simply don't believe that Champcar can go forward the way it's being run...to now hear that Tags never received his '04 $ from PG (as a series owner) cements the feelings of many of us. And to Skid Marx, Garyshell and those who feel we should all bear our identities, you folks clearly aren't current or past insiders or you would know the answer to why those of us with an ounce of intelligence would not want that. if it's jealosy, BELIEVE me, it's not something you want to have...and for those who would still want to push, I, for one, can answer questions about the time I was there that no one other than an insider could answer...so bring it on if you must...and eat crow when you know the truth!


There are a lot of people on here who claim inside information. I know from a few of my friends I see at Toronto and ALMS every year that there people in CCWS positions that read this board. I know this because they tell me face to face they figured out who Iam, but hey, I am not an insider. I am a fan, who happens to volunteer to work at races. I base anything I say based on my opinion only formed from the facts at hand.

The "insiders" that many often question will either have their status confirmed or dismissed by what they say, and how events turn out. Often how they state their opinion can give the game away. I don't need to grill anyone, I can guess on people's cred by what they say, and how things turn out. "Dr. Jack Miller" has claimed this status, and I have no idea where he came from, but he is asking very intelligent and pertinent questions, so I think no matter where he came from, he is very credbile. Some others are maybe not as obvious, but they are out there, and I will let you guys decide who you want to fight with or agree with. You will anyhow...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Heelntoe, as for your statement there is a mountain of bodies that have been heaved over the side, you are right on. It bothers me the quality of the people of used to work for this series that do not now....and at some point, it strains all reason to believe they all got stupid over night......

[heelntoe]

Heelntoe, as for your statement there is a mountain of bodies that have been heaved over the side, you are right on. It bothers me the quality of the people of used to work for this series that do not now....and at some point, it strains all reason to believe they all got stupid over night......

Mark, I've always read and appreciated your posts and I normally don't get wound up until a wacky poster like that guy Cache a while back or Sanguine now (I think they're the same guy by the way), jumps into the pool. Gary and Skid I can handle as they just want to see something good happen with the series (oh, and Jimispeed, who I think is great). The sad part is that this series is grasping at straws that aren't in any of their drinks! I will go out on the limb to predict a few things: Paul N is out after this year as Joann wants him home and the series is failing; GF sells to Tony Cochrane or someone else as he's totally fed up with KK and PG; Rocketsports folds, which it should anyway; Vegas gets shut down unless KK foots the bill; and China remains only something to serve food on. I'm sorry for my cynicism, but I know thhese guys and they can't get past themselves.

[Chaparral66]

This thread has certainly brought out a lot of opinions, and that's a good thing. Starter, I realize it may be a bit annoying that most threads start out talking about the actual racing, and then it turns into politics again. But the split is so all consumming, and I think if there is one thing that binds all of us here, as well as in the IRL forums, is that we want the split to end and get back to just the racing. I think we as a group need to continue to advance that idea with every once of sweat that we can.

DrJack in one of his last posts here, agai asked "What happens next?" I don't want to run that question into the ground Doc, because you have gotten a lot of responses here to that query. I had planned to write a long response to you last post, but I think I'll keep it short this time. None of us knows what happens next, we can only give an opinion as to what we think should happen next. This mostly from a CC viewpoint, but hey, this is a CC forum.

1) Get rid of Paul Gentillozzi as a CCWS series owner (you gotta let him own a team). I don't deny his passion, just his judgement. He is a cancer that seems to be growing, and after killing Trans Am, now his bad judgement seems to have more influence than his investment in CCWS is worthy of (according to some, he hasn't even paid his shares yet).

2) CCWS must never promote an event they don't even have locked down yet. Even a high school athletic director vying for a county wide basketball tourney knows that much.

3) The IRL must quit waiting for the other OWS shoe to drop. CC is just as determined as the IRL, and neither side is accomplishing anything.

4) Merge the two series, with both being prepared to sacrifice something. Once this is done, just hand the keys of Open Wheel Racing over to Roger Penske for 3-5 years and let him have at it, with input from Bryan Barnhart and Tony Cotman. You have to give the IRL its props for a great job at Belle Isle over this past weekend and the lion's share of that must go to Penske. The Captain clearly gets it when it comes to promoting an event, attracting fans, and making the fans feel comfortable and appreciated once they get there. The was proven true when he either created or took over venues like Michigan and Fontana, and how that fan regard took a nose dive once ISC got their mitts on them. Penske knows how to sweat the details, and make the fans want to come back. Let The Captain steer the ship, and he will take us all to the Open Wheel promised land...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, I've always read and appreciated your posts and I normally don't get wound up until a wacky poster like that guy Cache a while back or Sanguine now (I think they're the same guy by the way), jumps into the pool. Gary and Skid I can handle as they just want to see something good happen with the series (oh, and Jimispeed, who I think is great). The sad part is that this series is grasping at straws that aren't in any of their drinks! I will go out on the limb to predict a few things: Paul N is out after this year as Joann wants him home and the series is failing; GF sells to Tony Cochrane or someone else as he's totally fed up with KK and PG; Rocketsports folds, which it should anyway; Vegas gets shut down unless KK foots the bill; and China remains only something to serve food on. I'm sorry for my cynicism, but I know these guys and they can't get past themselves.


Thanks for the kind words, I have great regard for your posts as well. Cache and Sanguin could be the same guy or not, it makes no difference. I wont let lies and stupidity pollute the board if I can refute with logic and reality.

You, Gary, Skid, Jimi ( who doesn't love Jimi's faith? ) and others have been great to argue with, agree with and be a fan with over my time on this board. There are others (Hey, you know who you are) as well, and I think what unites most of us is that we want this series to succeed. I used to be just a fan, and always took the defensive to defend this series and where it stood, but this year, I just realized that the Amigo's are just not getting it done. I like Kalkoven, but I think he has tacitly let Forsythe and Gentilozzi run things, and it shows this year. Yes we have a new car, but that seemed to be where the good news stopped. Europe has turned out to be good news,but lets face it, when you are failing in your core market, it is like saying your hubcaps look great, but you still don't know what to do with all the rust on the body.

I think Champ Car soldiers on next year, but Newman will be out soon ( I cant imagine he likes what he see's) and NH goes to the IRL if not next year but the following year. IF Forsythe sold to Cochrane, I would cheer this on, for I don't think Gerry really should be in the promotion/ownership side of this series. I think we may see some new series, but I bet Vegas will follow Phoenix, and there will be doubts on other venues. If Champ Car makes the leap to international venues and makes them pay, without losing teams, they have a fighting chance, but by failing in their core market, they send a message that they are flailing about without a direction or an idea where the fans went. It just is sad, and while this wouldn't have been the fate of CART if the IRL never happened, one can just weep at just how much healthier OW racing would be on this continent if Tony had been more constructive and not destructive.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This thread has certainly brought out a lot of opinions, and that's a good thing. Starter, I realize it may be a bit annoying that most threads start out talking about the actual racing, and then it turns into politics again. But the split is so all consumming, and I think if there is one thing that binds all of us here, as well as in the IRL forums, is that we want the split to end and get back to just the racing. I think we as a group need to continue to advance that idea with every once of sweat that we can.

DrJack in one of his last posts here, agai asked "What happens next?" I don't want to run that question into the ground Doc, because you have gotten a lot of responses here to that query. I had planned to write a long response to you last post, but I think I'll keep it short this time. None of us knows what happens next, we can only give an opinion as to what we think should happen next. This mostly from a CC viewpoint, but hey, this is a CC forum.

1) Get rid of Paul Gentillozzi as a CCWS series owner (you gotta let him own a team). I don't deny his passion, just his judgement. He is a cancer that seems to be growing, and after killing Trans Am, now his bad judgement seems to have more influence than his investment in CCWS is worthy of (according to some, he hasn't even paid his shares yet).

2) CCWS must never promote an event they don't even have locked down yet. Even a high school athletic director vying for a county wide basketball tourney knows that much.

3) The IRL must quit waiting for the other OWS shoe to drop. CC is just as determined as the IRL, and neither side is accomplishing anything.

4) Merge the two series, with both being prepared to sacrifice something. Once this is done, just hand the keys of Open Wheel Racing over to Roger Penske for 3-5 years and let him have at it, with input from Bryan Barnhart and Tony Cotman. You have to give the IRL its props for a great job at Belle Isle over this past weekend and the lion's share of that must go to Penske. The Captain clearly gets it when it comes to promoting an event, attracting fans, and making the fans feel comfortable and appreciated once they get there. The was proven true when he either created or took over venues like Michigan and Fontana, and how that fan regard took a nose dive once ISC got their mitts on them. Penske knows how to sweat the details, and make the fans want to come back. Let The Captain steer the ship, and he will take us all to the Open Wheel promised land...


Uh oh Chap, now you are making sense. Better stop that, and duck. A lot of irrational hatred is out there for Penske, since they blame him for CART's demise and the demise of a lot of things, not to mention leaving CART after leading CART to fight the IRL in the first place.

The first rule of leadership is the ability to change directions and not lose people. Penske lost a few of us, but he has credability and as his promotion in Belle Isle and running the Super Bowl has proven, he understands how to promote a race, how to organize it, and how to make money off of it. 3 things Iam not entirely sure the Amigos have a handle on yet.

As for Paul Gentilozzi, the man killed Trans AM in the most gruesome way, so there is now way I would let him run anything. He was dumb enough to try to save Trans AM when he didn't have the money......and it needed more help than just about any pro series after it was run down by.....Steve Johnson. So why is Steve there and why is Paul making decisions. I thought KK was the chief partner? Enough of all of em...a pox ontheir house....

[David St. Hubbins]

And why is there so much scepticism of the credibility of those of us who have been involved, are no longer, but still want to follow from a distance?
A question worth answering. I'm willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but yes, I'm skeptical. Now that doesn't mean I call BS on everything an "insider" says, but I don't go the other way and and accept everything someone says, just because he's an "insider". All I'm doing is questioning, and willing to continue to read DrJack's and other's responses so I can make up my own mind about how I feel about them.

But frankly, I'm finding the pro-irl faction in the CC forum a bit old, and I was trying to get from DrJack his intention and direction. As I'd mentioned in a previous post, I like quid pro quo. I think that's only fair.

I'm losing faith with KK et al, and in the article posted by AR1, KK said the 2008 schedule would be submitted to FIA in mid-October, which seems to be too late to get any sort of sponsorship dollars for next year.

While I'm not in the racing industry, I am in sales, and know that many companies are working on (or finished with) their catalogs for next year. In my industry, October is too late for next year, so I don't know what will happen next.

Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football.

In a way, I envy most of you, insiders and out, who describe themselves as completely absorbed race fans (my words). That is, you have a passion for racing that burns from your heart, and love any and all forms of racing. Compared to you, I'm little more than a casual fan, although I'm really somewhere in between the man-on-the-street-casual fan and you. I doubt I'd watch the irl if tg were involved if there were a merger, but take him out of the equation, and I would follow it. If CC went away, and there was only the irl, but tg involved, I'd move on and find something else to do.

It'd be like a death in the family for me. There'd be a hole in my heart where good racing used to be, but I'd eventually accept it and move on with my life.

So for a second answer to DrJack's question of "What happens next?" I guess I have to ask: For whom?

[heelntoe]

Thanks for the kind words, I have great regard for your posts as well. Cache and Sanguin could be the same guy or not, it makes no difference. I wont let lies and stupidity pollute the board if I can refute with logic and reality.

You, Gary, Skid, Jimi ( who doesn't love Jimi's faith? ) and others have been great to argue with, agree with and be a fan with over my time on this board. There are others (Hey, you know who you are) as well, and I think what unites most of us is that we want this series to succeed. I used to be just a fan, and always took the defensive to defend this series and where it stood, but this year, I just realized that the Amigo's are just not getting it done. I like Kalkoven, but I think he has tacitly let Forsythe and Gentilozzi run things, and it shows this year. Yes we have a new car, but that seemed to be where the good news stopped. Europe has turned out to be good news,but lets face it, when you are failing in your core market, it is like saying your hubcaps look great, but you still don't know what to do with all the rust on the body.

I think Champ Car soldiers on next year, but Newman will be out soon ( I cant imagine he likes what he see's) and NH goes to the IRL if not next year but the following year. IF Forsythe sold to Cochrane, I would cheer this on, for I don't think Gerry really should be in the promotion/ownership side of this series. I think we may see some new series, but I bet Vegas will follow Phoenix, and there will be doubts on other venues. If Champ Car makes the leap to international venues and makes them pay, without losing teams, they have a fighting chance, but by failing in their core market, they send a message that they are flailing about without a direction or an idea where the fans went. It just is sad, and while this wouldn't have been the fate of CART if the IRL never happened, one can just weep at just how much healthier OW racing would be on this continent if Tony had been more constructive and not destructive.

Mark, I know nothing about Tony and his reasoning, but when I look at where CART went and where CCWS is now, I see a valid argument as to why you would want to establish independence...that said, i know nothing about the politics..I was brought in in '03 and while I've owned many cars...most that wouldn't be owned by the everyday guy, I'm mostly an exec that got hornswaddled by PG and the others.

[garyshell]

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary

[OWFan19]

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary


Maybe you should have said that earlier! As an anonymous insider, I have to agree with your assesment. Look at messages over a period of time and make your decission. Of course sometimes emotions kick in.

[Mark in Oshawa]

David, your one Quote that caught my eye and I was discussing it with one of the more interesting "insiders" who knows people in the IRL and the quote you said was:

"Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football."

The problem is, in North America, you cannot have a conversation about Open Wheel without dealing with the Speedway and Tony George. He has the football that people are still caring about, although to a lesser degree. It has been said that Tony is the cause of the upheaval in the sport, but short of his utter defeat, as long as he runs the IRL, then there will be a split fan base. There isn't enough fans of either series to make either one really succeed. What bothers me is the CCWS has almost done themselves in by their lack of professional leadership though because now the IRL has no reason to think twice about their course. They THINK they are on the right course and by CCWS losing events and teetering on the brink, no one at 16th and Georgetown will really listen to a merger or any new ideas. CCWS is too arrogant to realizing they are losing fans like myself, who know when they are being conned, and there is a legion of people out there apparently that wont do business with the Amigo's, making sponsorship and promotion more difficult. So now they decide Europe is the goal, likely because they know they have salted the earth back here....meanwhile, it does NOTHING for the American base.

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.

[David St. Hubbins]

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.Mark, I certainly agree with what you say about the skill set that RP has is what is needed. Whether he's the right man in particular, I won't say just yet, because I need to sleep on that one. RP's 70 this year, and while that can still be young (he's not 102 fer cryin' out loud), I wonder how long he's willing to hold up. Could be another 10-15 years, but who knows?

Right now though, off the top of my head, I don't know of anyone else who has the drive, skills, knowledge, and yes, greed (for both those around him as well as himself) to make it work.

[heelntoe]

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary

Gary, I've always appreciated your conviction, just not how it's been translated :) I don't hide behind anything as I'm happy to share my experience and I've been around for a long time...this is where your argument falls on the floor... if those of us who have insider status refuse your questions of information, without identity, then there's an argument...otherwise, your question of our credibilty is empty. We don't need to share our identity for anyone!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Heelntoe, you do realize though it is a doubleedged sword. If you release your identity and role in the sport, then people can come at you for things you want to say but don't want to influence your position or legal status. But by being in the closet (certaintly not the closet Senator Craig is in) your influence, status and crediblity is questioned. I understand the balancing act perfectly, since I know a few lurkers out there who wont post here because they know they might give something away that might get them in trouble with management of their racing series, but at the same time, you guys have opinions that matter, and opinions that are shaped by a reality us fans wont see. I hope you never stop posting, but do tread warily, for using the "I am insider" card only will get you so far with some of these guys....

[Chaparral66]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]Uh oh Chap, now you are making sense. Better stop that, and duck. QUOTE]

Dammit! Did I do that again? I've gotta do something about that... :D

[gofastandwynn]

Mark, I've always read and appreciated your posts and I normally don't get wound up until a wacky poster like that guy Cache a while back or Sanguine now (I think they're the same guy by the way)

I think you're missing one in there. If you noticed when Cache went away RGM Fan came along, and now RGM is gone and Sanguine is here...

[LTalbot]

So it appears like there are really two camps. Those like me, who are convinced a merger of some sorts is needed to lead us all to the Open Wheel Promised Land (good one Chaparral66), and those who say damn the IRL and Tony George and move on with the CCWS. I am no insider, just a fan who spends his vacations at Champ Car and F1 races. I also attend the local IRL races in Sonoma although was never a supporter of the original IRL concept of all American drivers on all oval tracks.

I wanted CART to succeed after the split, but really they lost the battle when the big teams moved to the IRL. When KK and company resurrected the series and rebadged it Champ Car I was delighted, because Champ Car represented what I wanted the series to be as the IRL still had only ovals. It also seemed like KK and TG could communicate without the hyperbole and anger that still separates many fans from agreeing on anything. My hope was together they could find common ground to a merger. Of coure this hope has never come to fruition and the recent comments in the Netherlands by the Champ Car series owners sound like they have no intention of discussing a merger or even running the Indy 500. While Indy is not the race it used to be, to ignore it and believe they can really be sucessful in the US without it is just silly. Open Wheel needs the Indy 500, because it's the only race that most Americans can identify with or even remember.

Like it or not, this is fact. A merger is a must, because if there is no merger, only the IRL will survive, and if Newman/Haas/Lanigan leave Champ Car the series WILL die. In this fans opinion NHL is really all that separates the series from being a bunch of wealthy weekend hobbiests.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So it appears like there are really two camps. Those like me, who are convinced a merger of some sorts is needed to lead us all to the Open Wheel Promised Land (good one Chaparral66), and those who say damn the IRL and Tony George and move on with the CCWS. I am no insider, just a fan who spends his vacations at Champ Car and F1 races. I also attend the local IRL races in Sonoma although was never a supporter of the original IRL concept of all American drivers on all oval tracks.

I wanted CART to succeed after the split, but really they lost the battle when the big teams moved to the IRL. When KK and company resurrected the series and rebadged it Champ Car I was delighted, because Champ Car represented what I wanted the series to be as the IRL still had only ovals. It also seemed like KK and TG could communicate without the hyperbole and anger that still separates many fans from agreeing on anything. My hope was together they could find common ground to a merger. Of coure this hope has never come to fruition and the recent comments in the Netherlands by the Champ Car series owners sound like they have no intention of discussing a merger or even running the Indy 500. While Indy is not the race it used to be, to ignore it and believe they can really be sucessful in the US without it is just silly. Open Wheel needs the Indy 500, because it's the only race that most Americans can identify with or even remember.

Like it or not, this is fact. A merger is a must, because if there is no merger, only the IRL will survive, and if Newman/Haas/Lanigan leave Champ Car the series WILL die. In this fans opinion NHL is really all that separates the series from being a bunch of wealthy weekend hobbiests.

Mr. Talbot, join the club. You are not the only one thinking that. AT some point, Tony has to be dealt with because he has outspent and out lasted some pretty tough people, but in the end, CCWS is going to either fold, or sell to TG. If new owners come along, then they will have to do a LOT better job to make this series fly at this point. I see Europe as a salvation ONLY if the Amigos spend the money to make every event in North America work, and get enough Euromoney to make it happen. THAT my friends is such a long shot.....because I don't see the Amigo's doing anything over here but ticking people off.....

[nigelred5]

What Happens Next?

Well, I watched Assen and really enjoyed it. The crowd looked good and even though there was little passing, it was a tactical race much like modern Formula One. However, I can't help thinking that this is not the long term answer for Champ Car.

CCWS may well decide to have more non-Nafta races, which pay the bills and permit profitability. However, this means abandoning any hope of being a force in American Open Wheel and capturing NAFTA based sponsorship.

Now, a global model may work, if they plan carefully and target sponsors who want a global presence and can't afford Formula One. However, to capture this new money, they still have to be more professional and prove to potential sponsors that they are providing value for money. In effect, they would be marketing themselves as Formula One "Lite". If that's the way the CCWS leaders want to go then fine, but as an ardent F1 lover, I will take the real thing every time.

I fell in love with CART/Champ Car because of the multi discipline racing. Road Course, Street Course, Superspeedway and Bullring Oval. I was intrigued by the close racing and personalities. Truthfully, in any given race over 50% of all starters had a genuine chance of winning, because of the nature of the rules, cars and circuits. Finally, it was professionally run.

I support CCWS, but the leaders make it hard for you to have any confidence in what they are doing and thus the future of the sport.

I have never worked in the motorsport industry, so I really can't comment on how difficult it must be to manage and run a racing series. However, I work in Investment Banking and have for the past 14 years. I am judged on results and delivery. If I didn't deliver, then I would be fired. I manage complex projects and deal with clients every day where millions of dollars are involved. I have to make plans and decisions and think carefully about the right way forward.

Forgive me, but surely the CCWS leaders must make plans and have targets as well? Is it me, or does it appear to anyone else like the leaders are just winging it?

Winging it on half a folded wing, spinning hopelessly earthbound like mortally wounded waterfoul. Brilliant in appearance but lifeless in reality.

[LTalbot]

You are right on the money Mark. Case in Point, most every Champ Car fan said the IRL would fail at Belle Isle, and that there was just no interest in the facility. Look what a little smart marketing does for you. Granted I only saw the ALMS and IRL races on TV, but the place was packed, and absolutly gorgeous from the air. The racing was also anything but a parade.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Talbot, I didn't see the race, so I won't comment, but the racing there was always tight, but for Champ Car fans to dumpon the place was funny. It is a street race, and if people addressed what was wrong with the circuit for facilities and access, it would succeed. Penske doesn't do this stuff to lose his money or his rep.

[DrJackMiller]

I give up. Who? You?

I'd like to know what the insiders (of which you claim to be-while it's possible, of course, but anyone can claim that on a message board...let's say I give you a 50/50 chance of being what you say) are doing to make this situation go forward.

As David St. Hubbins himself once said: "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." and therein lies the problem of finding the right leader. Oh, and I am not for second suggesting this person is me... LOL! I am only a racing dentist after all.

While I haven't been busy cleaning teeth I've gotten the opportunity to know or at least meet almost every CART, Champ Car and IRL leader over the years and I don't envy anyone who takes on a challenge like that.

On that subject, I think that the mean bashing that poor guys like Steve Johnson have received here is just awful given the reality of the no-win circumstances people like him face. How would you like working under four bosses who all think they are smarter than anyone born in the past seven decades? What would in be like to be blamed personally for every disaster large and small on forums like this even though you are probably not the problem. Mind you, my insight into this all could be hypothetical since chances are 50/50 that I am just another poser in a sport currently filled with them!

In hindsight, I think Andrew Craig did a decent job against a tide of negative factors ... he was worldly, he was smart and he made bold moves (Hawaii Super Prix excepted). I thought of him over the past weekend since it was at Detroit in June of 2000 that he was given the boot by the CART board and the death spiral began. One thing I liked about Andrew was that he had the usually had the sense to consider both sides of an issue before acting (again, Hawaii Super Prix excepted). He also came from a successful background in the greater world of international sports marketing and he understood that a sport must create commercial value not just harvest it. Was he perfect? No. Are you? Regardless, I don't want this to fall into a debate about the merits of Andrew personally (there are probably several flaming threads the subject already) but someone with his background (he had motorsports experience as well) fits the bill in my book -- but only in a unified series.

The big picture issue I see is that the IRL was created to benefit American oval track promoters (TG and IMS in particular) and now that reality has taken hold, TG has had to change his tune to stay in the game--but he is still promoter-centric in his thinking. Champ Car is still effectively run for the benefit of its equity holding entrants but the Amigos have, by necessity also become promoters... (like many of the CART owners were). Given how much both sides collectively waste in capital -- both financial and human -- each year, it strikes me that there has to be common ground in this somewhere. A third way, if you will, of looking at the overall business must be found that takes care of everyone in the sports financial ecosystem if it is ever to prosper again.

One last point about insiders: The committed customer is the ultimate insider. They hold the real power in my view -- especially if they are positive and energetic. The rush to reach the casual fan always strikes me as odd if a sport fails to build something worthy of the new fans staying interested or inspiring existing avid fans to engage in the best marketing there is: good old fashioned word of mouth (or click of a mouse).

I can't help but think a positive "what happens next" could change everything if it was about racing, personalities and something fresh -- not fear, failure and putrid ego-driven politics.

So, what happens next?

[sanguin]

I'm just a fan.

:imubash:

:wave:

[nigelred5]

David, your one Quote that caught my eye and I was discussing it with one of the more interesting "insiders" who knows people in the IRL and the quote you said was:

"Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football."

The problem is, in North America, you cannot have a conversation about Open Wheel without dealing with the Speedway and Tony George. He has the football that people are still caring about, although to a lesser degree. It has been said that Tony is the cause of the upheaval in the sport, but short of his utter defeat, as long as he runs the IRL, then there will be a split fan base. There isn't enough fans of either series to make either one really succeed. What bothers me is the CCWS has almost done themselves in by their lack of professional leadership though because now the IRL has no reason to think twice about their course. They THINK they are on the right course and by CCWS losing events and teetering on the brink, no one at 16th and Georgetown will really listen to a merger or any new ideas. CCWS is too arrogant to realizing they are losing fans like myself, who know when they are being conned, and there is a legion of people out there apparently that wont do business with the Amigo's, making sponsorship and promotion more difficult. So now they decide Europe is the goal, likely because they know they have salted the earth back here....meanwhile, it does NOTHING for the American base.

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.

I agree, many think RP is the devil incarnate and as much responsible for the split, if not moreso than TG himsef. I've had my just criticism of RP in the past but he obviously knows how to read the industry.
RP is the only individual I can even come close to that satisfies all of what I would consider essential criteria for leading a merged series. He has an exceptional track record as a businessman in several aspects of the Automotive industry. Manufacture, sales, service, rental. He has an unquestionable track record as a team owner and evaluater of racing talent in almost every premier racing series he's ever touched. He owns one of the most successful and broad reaching racing empires in racing history. He built, owned, managed and promoted a very successful portfolio of racing venues and the events held there under his stewardship. He was also an owner of CART at it's most successful period ever.
Many people have said, when the music stops, Roger Penske always has a chair. Why is that? Is there ANYONE that knows racing better than Roger? RP has a crystal ball the size of Australia, and he knows how to read it. Find a more respected figure in the automotive industry. All the bile and hatred is quite honestly childish jealousy. Honda and Cosworth could yank their engines and $ tomorrow and I would bet RP could find three manufacturers WITH money for real Advertising in time for a series tomorrow IF it was for a merged series he was in charge of.

Park the damn egos, Give KK, TG equal SERIES ownership, on condition they both stay the hell out of the racing operation and hand RP autonomy to run the series. KK can continue owning the rights to the various racing venues owned by CCWS, TG can run Indy how ever he wants, but RP calls the shots on the series. He appoints the racing committee, the technical comittee that designs the regs, the marketing, everything. If a track owner doesn't promote their race, it's gone, just as it should be, I don't care who owns it. The successful venues will survive, just as they have throughout this mess. Maybe some former venues would re-surface, maybe their history is written and should stay that way. But It's going to take someone with RP's knowledge, contacts and track record to pull it off. I don't know if even Bernie would pull it off, even if he wanted to.

[sanguin]

RP destroyed CART.

among other things ,

I think TG should let him control the IRL, oh wait, he already does! :D

You would think the IRL would be more successful by now. :p :

[David St. Hubbins]

One last point about insiders: The committed customer is the ultimate insider. They hold the real power in my view -- especially if they are positive and energetic.

Agreed to an extent. The negative or lethargic customer also has power. If enough people don't buy tickets to an event for a long enough period, be the reason hatred or apathy, then that event will go away. Case in point: people didn't buy tickets to Kelly Clarkson's concerts this summer, so she canceled them.


So, what happens next?
Answer #3 (refined): Theory of evolution: adapt or die.

[OWFan19]

Gary, I've always appreciated your conviction, just not how it's been translated :) I don't hide behind anything as I'm happy to share my experience and I've been around for a long time...this is where your argument falls on the floor... if those of us who have insider status refuse your questions of information, without identity, then there's an argument...otherwise, your question of our credibilty is empty. We don't need to share our identity for anyone!!!

Then why havent you responded to my last pm? :)

[FlatChatRacer]

I agree with "Mark In Oshawa". This is the best thread I have seen recently. It is mainly about the politics of Open Wheel racing, but it is being debated in an adult manner with respect for all so far. I for one am glad that the moderator "Starter" is letting this continue.

Now back to "What Happens Next?"

Well, in my opinion I agree with various bits of what has already been posted. I am sorry to say it, but I think CCWS as currently owned by KK, GF, PG and DP will be gone sometime in 2008. If Paul Newman leaves and Carl Haas and Lanigan head for the IRL, then the fat lady will be clearing her throat.

A merger will not take place. Tony George would be wise not to enter into any agreement right now. Which is why I suspect he is keeping quiet counsel. No doubt he may well be taking advice from Roger Penske and other Motorsport Industry doyens.

The CCWS leaders are trying to get enough profitable overseas venues to stay afloat and get some money back. They may be preparing for a sale to a third party. However, CCWS ins't worth much. In England we have a saying...

"Mutton dressed up as Lamb"

....unfortunately, CCWS is pretty close to that. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the vernacular, it is effectively describing a situation where something looks a lot better than it actually is.

I watched the ALMS and IRL race at Belle Isle and I was impressed with BOTH series. Before you flame me, consider how CCWS came across at Road America with the ALMS against how the IRL did with the ALMS at Belle Isle. The difference was staggering. Therein lies the problem, the CCWS leaders are not getting the job done compared to the IRL leaders. That is why CCWS is failing and will ultimately fail. Also, note what the IRL said during their press release at the weekend. They are targeting Canadian and Mexican races with the next two years. You know what, they are going to get into those markets as well.

I am hurt right now, because I supported the series financially as much as any fan could at the beginning of the difficult period. I went to the race at Brands Hatch in 2003, and then flew to 3 USA based races in 2004. I met Kalkhoven and he was great, taking pictures with me and Jimmy Vasser and thanking me for the support. I even tried to get my Investment Bank involved, but for one thing or another it did not work out. I had so much hope and faith then and was so pleased when the Bankruptcy ruling went Kalkhoven's way. However, since the end of 2004, it has become more difficult to see a way forward and feel genuine hope. The CCWS has lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Oh, and by the way, the new car was not the answer and letting AJ Allmendinger leave was scandalous.

Thus, in my opinion, what will happen next is that eventually CCWS will fold and bits will be sold to other parties. In effect a defacto merger will take place because the IRL will be the last man standing. Also, American Open Wheel will get a lot better with one series.

PS: On a lighter note, if the IRL is the only American Open Wheel in 2009, then as long as they race at Road America I will be happy. What a beautiful circuit. I also want to visit the area as well as I hear it is quite picturesque.

[sanguin]

Now back to "What Happens Next?"

Well, in my opinion I agree with various bits of what has already been posted. I am sorry to say it, but I think CCWS as currently owned by KK, GF, PG and DP will be gone sometime in 2008. If Paul Newman leaves and Carl Haas and Lanigan head for the IRL, then the fat lady will be clearing her throat.

A merger will not take place. Tony George would be wise not to enter into any agreement right now. Which is why I suspect he is keeping quiet counsel. No doubt he may well be taking advice from Roger Penske and other Motorsport Industry doyens.

Actually ,I hope that too. I really hope TG just keeps on waiting...

But CC will not go away.


The CCWS leaders are trying to get enough profitable overseas venues to stay afloat and get some money back. They may be preparing for a sale to a third party.

No CC is not for sale, it was just recently confirmed again.


I watched the ALMS and IRL race at Belle Isle and I was impressed with BOTH series. Before you flame me, consider how CCWS came across at Road America with the ALMS against how the IRL did with the ALMS at Belle Isle. The difference was staggering. Therein lies the problem, the CCWS leaders are not getting the job done compared to the IRL leaders.

I have no idea what you're talking about, the ALMS cars were as fast as the IRL cars, the race was mess and it wasn't a sellout.All you have is a opinion, its not everyone's. This is why you think CC will die? What about the races and the drivers,events and the cars, that's why we like CC.


Also, note what the IRL said during their press release at the weekend. They are targeting Canadian and Mexican races with the next two years. You know what, they are going to get into those markets as well.

They said that many times.smoke and mirrors


I am hurt right now, because I supported the series financially as much as any fan could at the beginning of the difficult period. I went to the race at Brands Hatch in 2003, and then flew to 3 USA based races in 2004. I met Kalkhoven and he was great, taking pictures with me and Jimmy Vasser and thanking me for the support. The CCWS has lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Oh, and by the way, the new car was not the answer and letting AJ Allmendinger leave was scandalous.

What about the racing? PR doesn't mean that much to most fans. I 'm sorry its so important to you. Maybe you can fly into Richmond next year and get your PR fix. AJ Allmendinger chose his fate,he doesn't race on sundays anymore.


Thus, in my opinion, what will happen next is that eventually CCWS will fold and bits will be sold to other parties. In effect a defacto merger will take place because the IRL will be the last man standing. Also, American Open Wheel will get a lot better with one series.

Keep hoping, I guess we won't see you at the CC races in 2008, no PR and all. :s mokin:


PS: On a lighter note, if the IRL is the only American Open Wheel in 2009, then as long as they race at Road America I will be happy. What a beautiful circuit. I also want to visit the area as well as I hear it is quite picturesque.

CC will be at RA in 2008. :D

but keep hopin' and wishin'

[beachbum]

I agree with "Mark In Oshawa". This is the best thread I have seen recently. It is mainly about the politics of Open Wheel racing, but it is being debated in an adult manner with respect for all so far. I for one am glad that the moderator "Starter" is letting this continue.

Now back to "What Happens Next?"

Well, in my opinion I agree with various bits of what has already been posted. I am sorry to say it, but I think CCWS as currently owned by KK, GF, PG and DP will be gone sometime in 2008. If Paul Newman leaves and Carl Haas and Lanigan head for the IRL, then the fat lady will be clearing her throat.

A merger will not take place. Tony George would be wise not to enter into any agreement right now. Which is why I suspect he is keeping quiet counsel. No doubt he may well be taking advice from Roger Penske and other Motorsport Industry doyens.

The CCWS leaders are trying to get enough profitable overseas venues to stay afloat and get some money back. They may be preparing for a sale to a third party. However, CCWS ins't worth much. In England we have a saying...

"Mutton dressed up as Lamb"

....unfortunately, CCWS is pretty close to that. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the vernacular, it is effectively describing a situation where something looks a lot better than it actually is.

I watched the ALMS and IRL race at Belle Isle and I was impressed with BOTH series. Before you flame me, consider how CCWS came across at Road America with the ALMS against how the IRL did with the ALMS at Belle Isle. The difference was staggering. Therein lies the problem, the CCWS leaders are not getting the job done compared to the IRL leaders. That is why CCWS is failing and will ultimately fail. Also, note what the IRL said during their press release at the weekend. They are targeting Canadian and Mexican races with the next two years. You know what, they are going to get into those markets as well.

I am hurt right now, because I supported the series financially as much as any fan could at the beginning of the difficult period. I went to the race at Brands Hatch in 2003, and then flew to 3 USA based races in 2004. I met Kalkhoven and he was great, taking pictures with me and Jimmy Vasser and thanking me for the support. I even tried to get my Investment Bank involved, but for one thing or another it did not work out. I had so much hope and faith then and was so pleased when the Bankruptcy ruling went Kalkhoven's way. However, since the end of 2004, it has become more difficult to see a way forward and feel genuine hope. The CCWS has lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Oh, and by the way, the new car was not the answer and letting AJ Allmendinger leave was scandalous.

Thus, in my opinion, what will happen next is that eventually CCWS will fold and bits will be sold to other parties. In effect a defacto merger will take place because the IRL will be the last man standing. Also, American Open Wheel will get a lot better with one series.

PS: On a lighter note, if the IRL is the only American Open Wheel in 2009, then as long as they race at Road America I will be happy. What a beautiful circuit. I also want to visit the area as well as I hear it is quite picturesque.
I too am very glad this thread continued. For once, a thread that wondered off came back with some very civil and thought provoking discussions that presented a number of interesting viewpoints.

As a fan, I have no clue "what happens next" because it appears the powers in charge at CCWS don't even have a clue about their next step. If they don't know "whats next" for them, forecasting the future is a crap shoot. As a fan, I think the split has weakened both series, but perhaps is some ways a "merger" has already happened. The power teams from the old CART days are now in the IRL and the IRL has taken on the look of the old series with the addition of street and road courses.

The "new" CCWS is on a different path and is now more European in flavor with little connection to the open wheel legacy in the US. If it becomes more euro-centric, how many teams will follow? Most are based in Indianapolis and having many flyaway races just doesn't make economic sense when the financial situation is as bleak as it appears. If it folds, how many teams will continue in US open wheel? I doubt all would switch to the IRL. There are too many other racing options. Add in the lost races that won't get picked up, and the biggest losers may be the fans.

There are many factors in this dog fight, including the class action suit from JDSU that Petit and KK both face. If they lose, it will cost a bundle. The loses from CCWS may seem tiny in comparison.

The future of CCWS appears to be sitting on a knife edge. Many have claimed the Phoenix cancellation pushed them over the edge. There are many other things that can go wrong. A few ride buyers finding other options, a few events throwing in the towel, a couple teams or sponsors saying "enough". It wouldn't take much to sink this ship. The amigos think it will go the other way with new sponsors, more interest, new events, etc. But frankly I have my doubts. They missed most of their past goals.

I agree with FlatChatRacer. The result will be the last man standing.

[sanguin]

As a fan, I have no clue "what happens next" because it appears the powers in charge at CCWS don't even have a clue about their next step. If they don't know "whats next" for them, forecasting the future is a crap shoot. As a fan, I think the split has weakened both series, but perhaps is some ways a "merger" has already happened. The power teams from the old CART days are now in the IRL and the IRL has taken on the look of the old series with the addition of street and road courses.

CC certainly knows their next step. Just sit back and watch.

As far as your merge stuff. It's the same old IRL it's always been and they are trying to be CART alright, it will never work though, its just a imitation along with some of the worst things about the old CART, like Belle Isle.


The "new" CCWS is on a different path and is now more European in flavor with little connection to the open wheel legacy in the US. If it becomes more euro-centric, how many teams will follow? Most are based in Indianapolis and having many flyaway races just doesn't make economic sense when the financial situation is as bleak as it appears. If it folds, how many teams will continue in US open wheel? I doubt all would switch to the IRL. There are too many other racing options. Add in the lost races that won't get picked up, and the biggest losers may be the fans.

huh? CC isn't folding and it won't be all euro races. where do you get this stuff,the promoters/tracks pay the sanction fees and travel. bleak??????


There are many factors in this dog fight, including the class action suit from JDSU that Petit and KK both face. If they lose, it will cost a bundle. The loses from CCWS may seem tiny in comparison.

desperation time ,the old lawsuit. If it even gets to court,it still has to be proven ,it could take a long time, it could get settled ,it could be dismissed or the people suing could LOSE. Regardless, a civil suit against the company and the rest will make the lawyers rich. Mark this down now, it won't make any difference to CC. NONE, As much as you're hopin' and wishin' nothing will change.


The future of CCWS appears to be sitting on a knife edge. Many have claimed the Phoenix cancellation pushed them over the edge. There are many other things that can go wrong. A few ride buyers finding other options, a few events throwing in the towel, a couple teams or sponsors saying "enough". It wouldn't take much to sink this ship. The amigos think it will go the other way with new sponsors, more interest, new events, etc. But frankly I have my doubts. They missed most of their past goals.

I agree with FlatChatRacer. The result will be the last man standing.

how dramatic! knifes edge? Last man standing? you guys crack me up

keep hopin' and wishin'

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sanguin, if you took off those rose coloured glasses, you would almost be mistaken for the copy guy on SNL that Jon Lovitz played. You have an answer for everything, but it is after all your opinion.

IF Belle Isle is a failure, explain why RP will have it next year? He doesn't do this for a hobby, he likes to make money off his events. ALMS said they will be there, so you know IRL is going to be there. I thought the whole idea was out to lunch,but Roger pulled it off, and people who are Champ Car fans have come on here and told me it worked out well. Geek, who is a Michgander and covers the sport told me they did just fine, and Deetroit was excited about having the race back. In short, the reality doesn't fit your view, so you slag it.

Now, this is a Champ Car thread, so I will just put that aside, but again, you say the IRL is dying, and Champ Car will prevail, and no one needs Indy.

Right, well the series that had all the teams, and all the good venues in 1996 is the one that went bankrupt. The series that came out of it was built using the best parts of the bankrupt series, and was to have the best plan and none of the baggage. Well, what do we have now? We had a race not even come off not once but TWICE. Spare me your rhetoric, I suspect if we had a informal poll here, my view of the goings on is better supported than yours. I don't have to make up anything, I just pick up the newspaper and read yet another PR screw up by Champ Car. You cant do that once a month or better for a year, and not start to have people lose faith in your operation.

Ok, enough of the negative.

IF Champ Car wants to survive, and not deal with the IRL, here is how it HAS to go. First off, make it one owner with an iron fist. Part of the misinformation issue Champ Car has is the Amigos have been caught NOT on the same page more than once. Two, Fire Steve Johnson if he doesn't bring a sponsor on board in the next 8 months for the series. I mean a sponsor that pays big dollars. Bigger than...NONE. Steve didn't make any friends at SCCA Pro, and I know this because I work for World Challenge every year, and they told me how glad they were to see him GONE. Third, the ironfisted owner has to decide on a schedule that will be made up of events that are engraved in stone, and build on them with events that he is willing to lose some money on WITH the promotor to make them happen. Phoenix should have been done, even if they had to paper the house if for no other reason than credibility. The put their legal muscle behind the effort to put that race there, and to have it go "pfft" so quickly just makes the operation look mickeymouse.

They have to buy time to get on TV, so be it, but put it on NETWORK TV, and offer it up to ESPN as well. Sell your commericials if you can, but put together a broadcast that is NOT like what they are doing now. Right now it is unwatchable. Any TV partner the series gets has to take the races live except for EXTREME situations where a prior conflict might be an issue, and then the placing of the tape delay has to be mutually agreed on and again, engraved in stone. Right now, their Canadian partner moves the race to suit THEIR sched, and it is a partner that quite frankly is unwatchable at the best of times with their constant score tickers on the bottom. They have to quit doing business with the first available suitor, and maybe they should really have to pay for a while to get better coverage. TV is the key, and it has to be a loss leader for a few years to try to rebuild an audience that has been used and abused.

They have to do NOTHING to the racing product, save put it on one or two ovals a year besides the events they have now. Lausitz should have been their first Eurostop, and Mexico has to remain part of the family. I have no idea why Forsythe quit promoting Monterray, but I would have to say it should be examined why that event failed, and something has to be learned.

Champ Car has had success in a number of markets, but instead of learning why the audience went away, they have just moved on. Why? Has a marketing study been done? That is a priority any new owner should have. Learn what is going on and why the market is going away. OW fans are by nature going to be intersted forever if they like this type of racing. Why are they NOT showing up now? What is the issue? Is it cost? Is it the promotion? is it they became fans of NASCAR? I can tell you it isn't the IRL that is getting these folks. I bet if you took a survey of fans of the IRL, most were either casual fans that got hooked, or have always been fans. Where are the Champ Car fans going? Who were all of those people who watched CART and where did they go? Was it all NASCAR. Many on the NASCAR board say yes, and they left because they saw what a joke they thought CART was becoming. Aliens didn't abduct them, so spend the money on a survey that will nail down what happened.

The New owner of Champ Car should pair up with ALMS where they can, and pair up with a partner in Europe such as LMES or the BTCC/DTM lines. Show your show off to those fans. In Asia, do an event with the Aussie v8's besides Surfers.

Expose this product as best you can, but keep the core of the series North American, with 3 events in Europe (Assen and Lausitz for sure, maybe a British venue if Zolder isn't viable) and 2 or 3 in Australasia. Maybe 2 events in Asia with 2 in Oz. That leaves 13 or so on the continent, and make the series 20 weeks. Have no more than 2 weeks between events and just go.

Spend the money on marketing, TV, and oh yes....making sure the teams can resign name drivers. Tie drivers up wherever possible to long term contracts. THat means guys like Tags, Andrew Ranger and Dominguez shouldn't have to go cap in hand begging for rides. No offense to Pags, Gommendy or Doornbos, but until they they came over, no fans here really knew who they were. How can you sell your series to Americans when you have to start from scratch every year. Have your drivers signed 2 months in advance. Just tell teams they have to get it done. Assist them to get it done.

Now I realize I have spent a lot of money here, and it aint mine. That said, if Champ Car is to be the rip roaring success you all think it is, then it should be paid back in time with profits. If it isn't, then it at least you gave it the proper effort it deserves.

Oh ya. fire the Webmaster and run professional PR relations and webblogs. Pay people to right something people want to read, and keep the webpage up to date. How many threads have I seen on here about things wrong or not changed on the site? Fix Race Director. Many people say they think it is done poorly and isn't worth the money. You cant have race fans thinking the package sucks and telling everyone that. You should be living and dying with word of mouth advertising. (I am Proof, for they have made me NOT a Champ Car fan this year by not sweating the details) I can live with Champ Car failing or succeeding if they were showing some flair in advertising and TV ,but right now, it looks like a shoe string budget and champaigne dreams.....

[garyshell]

Maybe you should have said that earlier! As an anonymous insider, I have to agree with your assesment. Look at messages over a period of time and make your decission. Of course sometimes emotions kick in.

Yes maybe I should have. When I initially started this part of the discussion, I thought that was pretty clear. As things progressed it became apparent that it was not as clear as I thought.

Gary

[Cart750hp]

CC certainly knows their next step. Just sit back and watch.

Very assuring, Steve Johnson. Yeah, that's what you told KK when he was in Antartica. Next time, wear your knee pads coz you'll be buzy since you know the next step you'll be doing.

Who the.... obviously, this guy is from fanatics.

Ah, it's getting annoying now. Mark in Oshawa, can you show me how that magic button works again, that ignore thing? I never get to use it. Let me see if it really works. Guys here been using it against me, now it's my turn to use it. Thanks in advance.

[Mark in Oshawa]

CART, I ignore no one, I would rather beat em over the head with some reality.....they get mad when you do that.

Funny thing is, I am getting beaten on lately by Champ Car fans, and got my cred beating on IRL trolls here......funny how I am good for the morale of the boys when I knock TG, but when I am an equal opportunity guy for the truth, and all the sudden I am full of it?

I like the debate....gives me something to do before I start hitting the road later this week. Then to paraphrase the late President Nixon: "You wont have DICK to kick around no more!!!"

[Cart750hp]

Yeah, you're right. I'll give that ignore button to someone who needs it really really bad.

[john2112]

St. Hubbins, I can't speak for Doc or most of the others, but i can say that many of us simply don't believe that Champcar can go forward the way it's being run...to now hear that Tags never received his '04 $ from PG (as a series owner) cements the feelings of many of us. And to Skid Marx, Garyshell and those who feel we should all bear our identities, you folks clearly aren't current or past insiders or you would know the answer to why those of us with an ounce of intelligence would not want that. if it's jealosy, BELIEVE me, it's not something you want to have...and for those who would still want to push, I, for one, can answer questions about the time I was there that no one other than an insider could answer...so bring it on if you must...and eat crow when you know the truth!

heelntoe,

This is a great thread, but one name that’s being left out is Mazda. How do you see them factoring into the equation? As I’m sure you’re aware, Mazda’s basically footing the bill for the media buys, so the question comes up: why?

Here’s what I’m looking at and wondering if CCWS’ schedule isn’t beginning/attempting to mirror it, despite all the idiocy that appears to be going on.

Mazda’s FY2006 Retail Unit Sales by Region
North America: 380K
Europe: 301K
Japan: 260K
China: 129K
Other: 230K
Global Sales Volume: 1,301K

I think most would agree that Mazda is fully capable of keeping CC afloat if they wanted to, so the real question, as it appears to me, is: do they want to?

The problem I see with them abandoning CCWS is what other vehicle is available to activate their brand with motorsports? As bad as CC is domestically, it still dwarfs the exposure they would generate simply through a few cars in Speed WC, GA, Star Mazda and ALMS - and that’s just in NA.

I can see Honda settling on the IRL and Toyota on NASCAR here in the states, but they’re also running F1, Mazda isn’t. So it’s not appearing to be a question of “if” they would abandon CCWS - but where would they go?

However, a version of CCWS operating to it’s full potential, would seem to be an ideal scenario for Mazda to activate their brand both domestically and globally - and that’s why I’m having a hard time imagining they’ll just let it all crumble. To me it’s too perfect a fit to ignore and like I said, I can't see leaving Mazda out of the discussion.

-John

[Easy Drifter]

Dr. Jack: What the h--- are you doing on this forum? You make far too much sense to be on here. Just kidding, there are a lot of very good posts by others.
The Capt. as dictator. He is just about the only one in OWR who could run things and keep the respect needed. He would have to have the authority to overrule the owners. He also might have to divest himself of his team to avoid conflict of interest squawks.
By the way, do not forget Roger was also a very good racing driver himself so he knows that end of things too.

[pvtjoker]

CART, I ignore no one, I would rather beat em over the head with some reality.....they get mad when you do that.

Funny thing is, I am getting beaten on lately by Champ Car fans, and got my cred beating on IRL trolls here......funny how I am good for the morale of the boys when I knock TG, but when I am an equal opportunity guy for the truth, and all the sudden I am full of it?

I like the debate....gives me something to do before I start hitting the road later this week. Then to paraphrase the late President Nixon: "You wont have DICK to kick around no more!!!"


Mark, as one of the "pro-IRL guys" who has been on the sharp end of your attacks (always in good nature, of course), I can appreciate your viewpoints even when I disagree with you on most occasions. Its always enjoyable to read your take...even when it "ruffles a few feathers" around here.

[LTalbot]

Shoot Mark is the only one here I can usually agree with.

One question I have though relates to the suggestion that NHL/HL/or H will move to the IRL next year. If I'm not mistaken, Carl Haas has distribution rights to Panos racing parts, and although not in the Champ Car ownership chain, he stands to lose considerably if he cannot sell parts to Champ Car. Now Panos races in plenty of other series, but I would think the DP01 represents a pretty good source of cashflow to Haas and moving to the IRL just wouldn't make sense.

However, just pulling this out of my a** if there were a deal to allow the DP01 or similar Panos chassis to run the IRL, then it might make more sense to Hass and other team owners to defect. And in my opinion if this happens, Champ Car will die. Just gas for thought...

[tbyars]

This is a great thread, but one name that’s being left out is Mazda. How do you see them factoring into the equation?

John- Let's say, for just a second, that the CCWS is actually up against it and the owners choose not to answer the bell for 2008.

To be very honest, the single most capible, most organized and most resourceful administrator in NAOWR today, IMO, is Vickie O'Conner.

I have no doubt that if CCWS was to go under that she could take the Mazda Atlantic series and pull it into stand-alone mode, probably as a major undercard support series to ALMS or GA, or maybe even the IRL. For that matter, maybe even all three!

I could actually see her parlay that series into one that would give Mazda everything they wanted in terms of American exposure.

That could be the opportunity for Mazda to retain their marketing exposure - especially if they can work relationships with other series to enhance their TV exposure. The networks may also be interested in the deal because they would know that, with the right TV package, Mazda could be a major advertising player through that outlet. Mazda, on the other hand, is able to avoid the political infighting we see today with the two major open wheel series (as they pretty much have to this point).

Not at all a prediction, just a thought about what might be ahead. I have a lot of faith in the MA series...to borrow a phrase..."it just seems like a series that is too good to let die" if CCWS goes away, and I think Vickie is respected enough throughout the motorsports industry that she would find another dance partner to help Mazda achieve its goals.

[sanguin]

John- Let's say, for just a second, that the CCWS is actually up against it and the owners choose not to answer the bell for 2008.

To be very honest, the single most capible, most organized and most resourceful administrator in NAOWR today, IMO, is Vickie O'Conner.

I have no doubt that if CCWS was to go under that she could take the Mazda Atlantic series and pull it into stand-alone mode, probably as a major undercard support series to ALMS or GA, or maybe even the IRL. For that matter, maybe even all three!

I could actually see her parlay that series into one that would give Mazda everything they wanted in terms of American exposure.

That could be the opportunity for Mazda to retain their marketing exposure - especially if they can work relationships with other series to enhance their TV exposure. The networks may also be interested in the deal because they would know that, with the right TV package, Mazda could be a major advertising player through that outlet. Mazda, on the other hand, is able to avoid the political infighting we see today with the two major open wheel series (as they pretty much have to this point).

Not at all a prediction, just a thought about what might be ahead. I have a lot of faith in the MA series...to borrow a phrase..."it just seems like a series that is too good to let die" if CCWS goes away, and I think Vickie is respected enough throughout the motorsports industry that she would find another dance partner to help Mazda achieve its goals.


Hmmmm, can't wait for next week.

[john2112]

John- Let's say, for just a second, that the CCWS is actually up against it and the owners choose not to answer the bell for 2008.

To be very honest, the single most capible, most organized and most resourceful administrator in NAOWR today, IMO, is Vickie O'Conner.

I have no doubt that if CCWS was to go under that she could take the Mazda Atlantic series and pull it into stand-alone mode, probably as a major undercard support series to ALMS or GA, or maybe even the IRL. For that matter, maybe even all three!

I could actually see her parlay that series into one that would give Mazda everything they wanted in terms of American exposure.

That could be the opportunity for Mazda to retain their marketing exposure - especially if they can work relationships with other series to enhance their TV exposure. The networks may also be interested in the deal because they would know that, with the right TV package, Mazda could be a major advertising player through that outlet. Mazda, on the other hand, is able to avoid the political infighting we see today with the two major open wheel series (as they pretty much have to this point).

Not at all a prediction, just a thought about what might be ahead. I have a lot of faith in the MA series...to borrow a phrase..."it just seems like a series that is too good to let die" if CCWS goes away, and I think Vickie is respected enough throughout the motorsports industry that she would find another dance partner to help Mazda achieve its goals.

tbyars,

I made a post on another forum that kind of goes along with your thinking and it seems to be in harmony with Dr. Jack's theme of "what next" so I'll just paste it here.

.................................................. .................................

Putting aside all the "my side is better than yours" arguments, I've been thinking about something that's come up in few other threads in one manner or another. The first part seems to have more to do with the actual racing part and the second more with the economics involved.

As to the racing, it came up recently about how entertaining the action in the Star Mazda series is. Personally, I think it's true and I'd also say that the racing in CC Atlantic is equally so, along with the few GP2 races and Indy Pro Series races I've seen. My main point is the "feeder" series' seem to produce a better show than the "headline" series they support.

My thoughts are, and I might be off on this, but I'm thinking the technology creep that began in the late '70's has really had a profound effect on the health of AOWR. It's probably not so much the technology as much as the increases in speeds that resulted from it. And NASCAR made a pretty big move with the restrictor plates to at least head off the speed part of the technology creep.

During the same time that NASCAR was trying to slow their cars down, AOWR became intoxicated with speed. "It's a new track record," became the goal, and I think the actual "racing" part began to suffer because of it. However, flush with money from the manufactures and sponsors, the speeds and technology to reach them was pretty much left unchecked, which was fine until the money dried up.

I'll get back to the money side in a minute, but it's the increase in speed that seems a little more important. And I'm not going to deny the attraction to the 1,000 hp cars and the +230mph speeds, that was going on in the '90's. But with all that "awe" going on, there was a certain amount of "raw" that was lost which was present in the late '70's and early '80's.

I've just googled some of this stuff so if it's off, don't flay me over it. But as far as speed goes:

-In his '78 F1 winning season, Mario Andretti qualified his Lotus on the pole at the U.S. Grand Prix on the long course at Watkins Glen with a time of 1:38. In contrast the Indy Pro Series track record on the same course is: 1:37.

-The qualifying speed for the F1 race at Monza in '78 was 1:37. The qualifying speed for the GP2 cars on the slower course was 1:30.

-A.J. Foyt qualified 5th and finished 2nd in the '78 Indy 500 with a qualifying speed of 189mph. The pole for the Indy Pro Series race at Indy this year was 188mph.

My point really isn't so much the speed, but the cost of that speed. No matter how I look at it, AOWR is living beyond it's means. I could go on and on comparing it to it's glory days, or contrasting it against NASCAR, but why? That's the past and what could have been. But in the here and now…

I'm hearing you can run a competitive CC Atlantic team for $1M+ a year. That's a car that ran a 1:58 at Road America this year, compared to the CART '83 pole of 1:57.

So what would we be losing if CC Atlantic's, Indy Pro Series or maybe something along the lines of GP2 cars were the pinnacle of AOWR? Ego and speed mainly. I think most of the ego part would be from who we, as AOWR were, and partly compared to the F1 crowd. But the money's simply not there to be who we were, and it's certainly not there to pursue what the F1 teams spend.

Then we're left with the speed issue, which I'll get to shortly, but the point of this whole rambling post is to remove the "OW" part from the equation of "rethinking AOWR," and then it's really just American Racing. And at least for the mental exercise, if we stop comparing one OW racing series to another along with making comparisons to it's past or trying to compete with what's going on in Europe, and bring the debate around to competing for the American Racing market - I think OWR could do okay.

If it's just about the speed, a CC Atlantic car is quicker than a Nextel Cup car. And if it's about the racing, like I said earlier, these feeder series put on a pretty good show. So I think the real problem facing AOWR is more internal than external: it's competing either with itself, it's past, or F1. But I think the real competition is the "present" American Racing scene, and that's NASCAR.

So if by some miracle, the heads of the premier series of the IRL and CCWS were chopped off, and all that money was then put into their feeder series' - we'd have two AOWR series with 40+ car fields; putting on a better show than NASCAR; and also being faster than NASCAR.

Like I said in the title, "rethinking AOWR," I'm wondering if we're competing against what we shouldn't be competing against, and not competing for the market (American Racing) we should be. My point with all this being: I think we (OWR) have a better "racing" product than NASCAR does; and all AOWR's means need to be sacrificed to that end.

.................................................. ........................

To sum it up, I think one of the major liabilities with AOWR has very little to do with what they're doing and more with how they see themselves. There's a certain amount of prestige associated with its past, that the participants across the board have a hard time letting go of, and I believe that's contributed more to its current state than any other single factor.

I don't have a problem with the big dreams, but there's a difference between starting from the top and working your way up to it. So whether it's the IRL trying to be what they were, or CCWS trying to be bigger than they are, the common denominator in both cases is not laying the foundation to support the ideal they see themselves as.

In my opinion both NASCAR and F1 are where they are today because of the foundation they laid in the past, and I can see Mazda following a similar path. Starting with the original Formula Mazda, to the current Pro FM, and now into the Atlantics, each successive level was fully supported by the preceding one. And from the drivers side:

-Successful karters will participate in a full season of the BFGoodrich Skip Barber National Presented by Mazda.

-The Skip Barber National Champion will be racing in the Star Mazda Championship Presented by Goodyear.

-The Star Mazda Champion will be racing in the Cooper Tires Presents the Champ Car Atlantic Series Powered by Mazda.


So all in all, I'm seeing two contrasting views: one of Mazda building the foundation for AOWR from the ground up and the other, the old guard trying to prop up the ruins of the past.

-John

[beachbum]

John, excellent post and great ideas. The research about speeds is particularly enlightening.

[Roninho]

Putting aside all the "my side is better than yours" arguments, I've been thinking about something that's come up in few other threads in one manner or another. The first part seems to have more to do with the actual racing part and the second more with the economics involved.

As to the racing, it came up recently about how entertaining the action in the Star Mazda series is. Personally, I think it's true and I'd also say that the racing in CC Atlantic is equally so, along with the few GP2 races and Indy Pro Series races I've seen. My main point is the "feeder" series' seem to produce a better show than the "headline" series they support.

......

My point really isn't so much the speed, but the cost of that speed. No matter how I look at it, AOWR is living beyond it's means. I could go on and on comparing it to it's glory days, or contrasting it against NASCAR, but why? That's the past and what could have been. But in the here and now…

I'm hearing you can run a competitive CC Atlantic team for $1M+ a year. That's a car that ran a 1:58 at Road America this year, compared to the CART '83 pole of 1:57.

So what would we be losing if CC Atlantic's, Indy Pro Series or maybe something along the lines of GP2 cars were the pinnacle of AOWR? Ego and speed mainly. I think most of the ego part would be from who we, as AOWR were, and partly compared to the F1 crowd. But the money's simply not there to be who we were, and it's certainly not there to pursue what the F1 teams spend.

-John

Great post John.

To add to this, i would like to point out that the gp2-car is actually roughly as fast as the lola champcar was, while costs are between $1.0-$1.5 million for 11 races.


I recently posted something on another website regarding the speed differences between GP2 and the Lola-champcar.

--------------
Champcar's fastest lap in montreal was 109.8% (2004), 109.79% (2005) and 108.55% (2006) of the fastest race lap in F1 in the same year.

Gp2's fastest lap was 110.55% (Silverstone), 111.66% (Imola) and 109.71% (Hockenheim) compared to F1's fastest lap @ the same event in 2006.

I for one don't believe the hardcore fans will notice this 1 to 3% difference. And don't even start on the general audience.

The point is that champcar could have gone for a technical package that is to the eye as fast as the lola-package and in terms of actual speed 1 - 3 % of the pace. In terms of money gp2-championship winning ART-team ran on a budget of 2.5 million euro for 2 cars, which equals +- $1.5 million for 1 car for 11 races. A midpack team should be able to run for as low as $1 million.

--------------------


The weird thing is that whenever i propose such a formula everybody starts to talk about champcar not being a junior serie and that it would be bad for it's image. All i'm thinking is a) 17 cars, teamsupport, no sponsors and no driver stability due to lack of budget harms the serie way more and b) these cars are as fast as the lola's (well, at least you can't spot the 1-3% difference without a stopwatch). And the people who follow the gp2 championship know that it offers some of the best racing seen in a long time.

Imo it has exactly to do with what you are saying: Ego. Our car needs to be the fastest. And who cares that nobody has the money to run it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

John, excellent points. The whole issue people would have if Champ Car died and Atlantics were elevated, is that the cars are just not of the same difficulty to drive and set up. The bigger power and heavier cars in Champ Car or the IRL are tougher to driver and more of a challenge. That said, you are dead on the money saying Atlantics and Formula Mazda would put on a better show. GP2 puts on a better show than f1, but for whatever reason, OW racing is all about the challenge of the technology and the skill of the drivers, and not about the entertainment value. The problem is, racing ceased to be a serious R and D lab for the manufacturers a while back. It is now about promoting the brand, and providing entertainment, and the lesser formula would do better at these things.

It isn't going to change though people, so although we all know Atlantics, GP2, Infiniti Pro Series, and Formula Mazda would all be more entertaining than their bigger brothers, no one would shell out the big dollars for these guys in stand alone events...except maybe at Trois Rivieres where the Atlantics WERE The show for years....

[sanguin]

Walker racing just formed a partnership to develop racers for CC.

I talked to Cameron at RA, he wants to get to CC.

All in this link-

http://www.topix.com/racing/star-mazda-series

[sanguin]

This is where you just don't get it. CC's owners don't have a gun or a plan that includes anything to do with IRL's demise.CC doesn't try to get their venues,or drivers or teams. IRL will collapse on its own. What does Honda get out of spending money to prop up the IRL? What does it get out of defeating itself in the Indy 500? No one wants to spend money to try to beat them. If Honda were just selling engines ,it would be different, but they bring discounted sponsorships and drivers salaries, team subsidies and discount engine programs. This does not make sense ,they don't own the IRL. Why? because they signed on to stay in the IRL until they follow Toyota into Nascar.



Good luck with that,it won't make a difference,CC is not dependent on IRL.I don't see any manufacturer giving Honda level support without a merger. The Irl just doesn't have the fan base or events to support that happening. The 500 does nothing for the IRL in attendance or ratings at their other events.


just so I don't have to repeat myself. ;)

[garyshell]

just so I don't have to repeat myself. ;)

And yet, you just did.

Gary

[DrJackMiller]

I soon have to jump back into the other part of my life but I feel this has been great fun and helpful in understanding points of view that are new to me. I have leaned much from many of you in my week on posting on this board… Thanks to everyone for such a great discussion. There is much wisdom in this community and it needs to be heard above all the divisive rhetoric. Speaking of which...

Sanguin, You are the chaming poster child for Zeal. Thankfully, all 126 people (or are you down to 125 now?) left who still believe the Amigo's fantasies need you out front leading the charge to the Kool Aid fountain. Hey, did you also fall for pyramid schemes back in the 1980s? Anyhow, this would not have been nearly the fun it has been without you. Thanks. You have made more of my points than I could have made without your help. Say “hi” to Paper and the Cipper for me.

Back to what happens next?

So, it now seems clear to many of us that the Amigos have no real plan other than trying to force some sort of sale or merger by being in the way of progress. Actually, one of the Amigos once told me that this is the back-up plan. He cockily speculated back in 2003 that someone (TG, BE or the Frances) would buy them so it would all pan out for the best one way or another. I discounted that comment then but not now given how things have gone.

But I have a sense even that "strategy" is as fatally flawed as all the other gambits they have tried because the are failing to create any believable meaning in the ChampCar brand nor any tangible value that is not tied to a specific event such as Long Beach or Edmonton or Assen. So far, these events are racing snack food--not soul food. All lack the emotional meaning and defining power of something enduring like the Indy 500, Daytona 500, Monaco or Le Mans.

Now, there are probably people in ChampCar who do think strategically. In particular, I won't underestimate the impact that David Higdon is having on the current situation(s) but it is all clearly too little too late. He along with Tony Cotman and Vicky O’Connor stand as examples (there are many others past and present) of the precious human capital potentially squandered in this sorry mess.

So, what do I think will happen next?

ChampCar will try their best to change the subject and get hope floating again while they scramble to figure out what to do about the fires burning on every floor.

They will make an announcement (or three) in an attempt to stop the tailspin and to counter what the Indy Car Series likely has coming. The subjects could be:

1) A new event (or events) in Europe or Australia will come to the fore but that will probably need to wait until for confirmation until the FIA calendar is final so they will go for something else...

2) A new Euro or Aussie team or sponsor(s) will be rumored for months on end to deflect attention from the potential loss of CDW and RedBull. I can only imagine the pressure that is being put on Trust to jump in with both feet without looking.

3) A regional ChampCar support series in Europe will probably be the next real announcement. This will probably be Mazda Atlantic rather that going with F3 or F Whatever... It will also probably be someone other than the Amigos underwriting the idea based upon what they saw during the European races. Remember that it has been the Amigo’s style to get someone else to assume the risk so good luck to whoever takes this on! My guess that this is "The Big news” our dear friend Sanguin has been told by the Amigos. If so, it makes sense in that Atlantic works wonderfully as a formula. The Amigos are unlikely to escape funding cars to fill the CC field should they keep going and they don't want such funding to appear to be hand outs so they were probably thinking why not have a $2 million prize for a European Atlantic Championship winner and sell some Cosworth and PI stuff as part of the deal to offset the prize? My guess is that this sort of thinking is how they see most issues.

4) They will try to hire a major "brand name” sports marketing company to sell sponsorship. I hear rumors that IMG has been met with the Amigos during the past year, and I also suspect that NEXT Marketing is hard up against the reality of trying to sell "Mutton dressed as Lamb" (thanks for that great phrase flatchatracer.) I can’t help but think that they will either drop this sinkhole of a client (especially if CDW moves on as is rumored) or ultimately be replaced in the Amigos fruitless quest for credibility.

5) The Amigos will do whatever it takes to finally get Indy 500 winner (and potential IndyCar Series Champion) Dario Franchitti back to Champ Car as the team leader at NHL. My guess is that this is why PLN was in Detroit. In my opinion, it is really their last chance to show they have teeth and the will to win. I also doubt it will happen… but if it does, I suspect NHL will probably enter the Indy 500 which will once again open the door to the Champocolypse.

6) The Vegas GP will either get scrubbed or change hands to become the latest “brilliant strategic acquisition” by the Amigos.

I just read Gordon Kirby’s latest column on GordonKirby.com and Mike Hull of Target Chip Ganassi Racing says it best: “In racing, you’re either being validated or looking for validation. It’s one or the other, nothing in between.” So far, the Amigos have spent most of the past year stuck in “nothing in between”.

Speaking of “nothing”, that was what the shareholders of JDS/Uniphase were left with and what has resulted is the fabled JDS/Uniphase shareholder lawsuit that goes to trial in October. The plaintiffs allege fraud on the part of Kevin Kalkhoven and others. I found this (and much more) when I googled the subject this morning:

http://press.arrivenet.com/business/article.php/322351.html

“The lawsuit claims that the San Jose-based fiber-optics company issued false and misleading financial statements to the public. According to the complaint, JDS and 10 of its top officers stated throughout the Class Period that demand for the company's products was accelerating, and that the company's only problem was its ability to manufacture enough to meet demand. The complaint also maintains that the company misrepresented the success of several major acquisitions and downplayed its dependence on its two largest customers.

But the company falsely informed investors that demand was as strong as claimed, the complaint alleges. On July 26, 2001, JDS restated the company's third quarter 2001 financial results and took massive fourth-quarter charges to account for a total of $44 billion in write-offs associated with its acquisitions and excess inventory. Those revisions and write-offs increased JDS' losses for fiscal year 2001 to $56.1 billion. According to the complaint, JDS executives knew of a slowdown in demand because the company employed 80 engineers to monitor customers and inventory levels.

After the revised numbers were announced, JDS stock fell to as low as $7.90 per share after trading at a Class Period high of $146.32 - a 94% decline. The lawsuit also alleges that the artificially inflated stock price enabled certain company officers to sell $2.1 billion of their own JDS holdings before the company's true financial state became public.”

Hmmm, something about the foregoing sounds faintly familiar.

[DrJackMiller]

So what about the IndyCar Series?

What happens next?

I think they will have some announcements of their own:

1) They will reveal financial incentives to get new entrants --- especially a couple of ChampCar teams who have probably had enough of the Amigos. Who knows, one or more may jump ship? Think about it: If you were a Champ Car team owner trying to sell sponsorship, what would you do? Despite this, my guess is the IRL may end up with about the same number of cars due to the loss of one or more of TG’s cars and possible reduction of effort by other teams that have been supported by him. You can take this as a bad sign for the IRL, or a good sign, depending on your political bent.

2) IndyCar may announce their 17th race in Southern California (San Diego or LA are rumored) and it will actually happen if announced. If so, there will be significant corporate sponsorship and media buzz and it will be a tipping point in the minds of most if it does indeed come to fruition. It will also be a street race bringing the total of 2008 road races to six.

3) The Indy Car Series will give more clues about the next generation cars and engines as well as the 100th Anniversary era, which should create interest and discussion. Like many, I remain skeptical that they will create something cool but I will wait until they announce what they plan to do until I make my mind up. Hell, what else can we all really do?

4) Honda will or won’t announce something! My guess is that they will stick with the Indy Car Series through 2009 and perhaps longer. But, anything can happen (as history has proven). Honda’s potential for departure remains as the Amigo’s Great White Hope for a more favorable end to their misguided hobby adventure. On the other hand, should Honda eject they I doubt they will leave the series in the lurch and there is a chance some other manufacturer may be interested. Perhaps the series engine supply will be run under another business model. How about junkyard motors? Time will tell how this plays out but I doubt TG’s boys are sitting on their hands.

5) Sam Hornish and RP will announce the NASCAR switch and Ryan Brisco will replace him as has been reported elsewhere. There will be some negative backlash but life will go on. My sense is that Hornish will have a way back to RP’s IndyCar if he wants it and I bet he will eventually.

6) The Indy Car Series and Just Marketing will announce a new series sponsor before the season begins. Hopefully it won’t be a struggling company like Northern Lights or Pep Boys. If this happens, and the sponsor is a mainstream brand with a real activation budget the game is over.

7) Gene Simmons will be renewed and asked to anchor the Indy 500 Broadcast along with PeeWee Herman. Ratings will soar to 1996 levels.

Overall, my sense is that the Indy Car Series will continue to struggle for true credibility with drivers and the media if they remain hell bent on creating such obviously contrived racing in an effort to reach the mythical casual fan. To me, this is a key issue. Doesn't anyone pause and ask themselves if this tactic has worked? From the looks of it... no. Using ChampCar's hapless current state as a competitive benchmark is also foolish at best.

I think the whole Split has been about underestimating how much damage would be done by alienating the generations of hard core auto racing fans who love and respect the Indy 500 and what it really stands for. I can’t imagine the NFL, MLB or the NBA taking the same risk. The closest things to this stupidity have been the MLB and NHL Strikes and you can plainly see how those actions helped each of those sports!

In the end, there has to be a balance between found between the IRL’s chronic NASCAR envy and ChampCar’s incurable F1 wannabeitis.

I hope the powers that be find it because I don’t see any other way forward.

Real Indy Car racing has never been about lusting after the cultures of NASCAR or Formula 1.

I believe the sport has always been rooted in its own unique culture that embraces individuality, talent, innovation, courage and diversity. These are all the things that still make America special and something you won’t find while chasing a sanction fee to the four corners of the earth or by being Hamburger Helper to NASCAR promoters trying to make the numbers in the face of NEXTEL's Cup's declining fan interest, overexposure and sponsor clutter.

I also believe that nothing less than The Real Thing is what we all really want and as the folks a Porsches say, we should “accept no substitutes”.
For the record, I am one of the people who didn’t like the Handford device because of what it stood for nor do I fawn over “innovations” like the “power to pass” button. To me, the Danica “Steeringgate” flap is more of the same and all are damaging to the integrity of the sport and to the hard earned progress and success Danica has enjoyed this year. You know, people simply aren’t that dumb and universal access to information makes it hard to fool anyone these days.

One thing the IndyCar Series folks are right about though is that if Danica (legitimately) wins an Indy Car race the world will change forever… so I hope it happens.

The world will also change if the leaders of the sport size the opportunity to make things right again, which in my mind means making us whole again as a culture.

I also want "what happens next" to place less weight on people like WebCowlings (a demonic pro IRL web forum poster from 1995) or Sanquin (no comment) trying their best help us hate each other. Its time for people to come forward who remind us all of what we have in common. To me, that is a shared past and a bright future.

Which brings me back to where we began:

What happens next?

When you think about the answers to that question, don’t forget that the customer has a voice that is more powerful than ever before.

So, the time has come for me say goodbye.

Thanks for letting me drill down into this juicy subject rather than another rotten molar.

Since this is the end of my time posting on these boards I thought it would be appropriate to quote David St. Hubbins on the subject of "The End", as I slip back into cyberspace:

“Asked by a reporter if this is the end of Spinal Tap] “Well, I don't really think that the end can be assessed as of itself as being the end because what does the end feel like? It's like saying when you try to extrapolate the end of the universe, you say, if the universe is indeed infinite, then how — what does that mean? How far is all the way, and then if it stops, what's stopping it, and what's behind what's stopping it? So, what's the end, you know, is my question to you.”

In that spirit, please keep this conversation going. – Dr. Jack

[pvtjoker]

So what about the IndyCar Series?

What happens next?

I think they will have some announcements of their own:

1) They will reveal financial incentives to get new entrants --- especially a couple of ChampCar teams who have probably had enough of the Amigos. Who knows, one or more may jump ship? Think about it: If you were a Champ Car team owner trying to sell sponsorship, what would you do? Despite this, my guess is the IRL may end up with about the same number of cars due to the loss of one or more of TG’s cars and possible reduction of effort by other teams that have been supported by him. You can take this as a bad sign for the IRL, or a good sign, depending on your political bent.

2) IndyCar may announce their 17th race in Southern California (San Diego or LA are rumored) and it will actually happen if announced. If so, there will be significant corporate sponsorship and media buzz and it will be a tipping point in the minds of most if it does indeed come to fruition. It will also be a street race bringing the total of 2008 road races to six.

3) The Indy Car Series will give more clues about the next generation cars and engines as well as the 100th Anniversary era, which should create interest and discussion. Like many, I remain skeptical that they will create something cool but I will wait until they announce what they plan to do until I make my mind up. Hell, what else can we all really do?

4) Honda will or won’t announce something! My guess is that they will stick with the Indy Car Series through 2009 and perhaps longer. But, anything can happen (as history has proven). Honda’s potential for departure remains as the Amigo’s Great White Hope for a more favorable end to their misguided hobby adventure. On the other hand, should Honda eject they I doubt they will leave the series in the lurch and there is a chance some other manufacturer may be interested. Perhaps the series engine supply will be run under another business model. How about junkyard motors? Time will tell how this plays out but I doubt TG’s boys are sitting on their hands.

5) Sam Hornish and RP will announce the NASCAR switch and Ryan Brisco will replace him as has been reported elsewhere. There will be some negative backlash but life will go on. My sense is that Hornish will have a way back to RP’s IndyCar if he wants it and I bet he will eventually.

6) The Indy Car Series and Just Marketing will announce a new series sponsor before the season begins. Hopefully it won’t be a struggling company like Northern Lights or Pep Boys. If this happens, and the sponsor is a mainstream brand with a real activation budget the game is over.

7) Gene Simmons will be renewed and asked to anchor the Indy 500 Broadcast along with PeeWee Herman. Ratings will soar to 1996 levels.

Overall, my sense is that the Indy Car Series will continue to struggle for true credibility with drivers and the media if they remain hell bent on creating such obviously contrived racing in an effort to reach the mythical casual fan. To me, this is a key issue. Doesn't anyone pause and ask themselves if this tactic has worked? From the looks of it... no. Using ChampCar's hapless current state as a competitive benchmark is also foolish at best.

I think the whole Split has been about underestimating how much damage would be done by alienating the generations of hard core auto racing fans who love and respect the Indy 500 and what it really stands for. I can’t imagine the NFL, MLB or the NBA taking the same risk. The closest things to this stupidity have been the MLB and NHL Strikes and you can plainly see how those actions helped each of those sports!

In the end, there has to be a balance between found between the IRL’s chronic NASCAR envy and ChampCar’s incurable F1 wannabeitis.

I hope the powers that be find it because I don’t see any other way forward.

Real Indy Car racing has never been about lusting after the cultures of NASCAR or Formula 1.

I believe the sport has always been rooted in its own unique culture that embraces individuality, talent, innovation, courage and diversity. These are all the things that still make America special and something you won’t find while chasing a sanction fee to the four corners of the earth or by being Hamburger Helper to NASCAR promoters trying to make the numbers in the face of NEXTEL's Cup's declining fan interest, overexposure and sponsor clutter.

I also believe that nothing less than The Real Thing is what we all really want and as the folks a Porsches say, we should “accept no substitutes”.
For the record, I am one of the people who didn’t like the Handford device because of what it stood for nor do I fawn over “innovations” like the “power to pass” button. To me, the Danica “Steeringgate” flap is more of the same and all are damaging to the integrity of the sport and to the hard earned progress and success Danica has enjoyed this year. You know, people simply aren’t that dumb and universal access to information makes it hard to fool anyone these days.

One thing the IndyCar Series folks are right about though is that if Danica (legitimately) wins an Indy Car race the world will change forever… so I hope it happens.

The world will also change if the leaders of the sport size the opportunity to make things right again, which in my mind means making us whole again as a culture.

I also want "what happens next" to place less weight on people like WebCowlings (a demonic pro IRL web forum poster from 1995) or Sanquin (no comment) trying their best help us hate each other. Its time for people to come forward who remind us all of what we have in common. To me, that is a shared past and a bright future.

Which brings me back to where we began:

What happens next?

When you think about the answers to that question, don’t forget that the customer has a voice that is more powerful than ever before.

So, the time has come for me say goodbye.

Thanks for letting me drill down into this juicy subject rather than another rotten molar.

Since this is the end of my time posting on these boards I thought it would be appropriate to quote David St. Hubbins on the subject of "The End", as I slip back into cyberspace:

“Asked by a reporter if this is the end of Spinal Tap] “Well, I don't really think that the end can be assessed as of itself as being the end because what does the end feel like? It's like saying when you try to extrapolate the end of the universe, you say, if the universe is indeed infinite, then how — what does that mean? How far is all the way, and then if it stops, what's stopping it, and what's behind what's stopping it? So, what's the end, you know, is my question to you.”

In that spirit, please keep this conversation going. – Dr. Jack

Come on Sanguin. In unison with me..."all smoke and mirrors".

[David St. Hubbins]

Thanks, DrJack, for finally giving us your thoughts on what happens next.

Remember though, and I know you know it, since you posted it, that the JDS case doesn't go to trial until October. Since it hasn't happened yet, no one has been convicted yet. The fact remains that the defendants may be guilty, but it's wise not to sentence them yet.

But you've pretty well convinced me of your pro-irl bias. Not that there's anything wrong with that....

About Danica getting her win....I really don't get how the world will change, except that a woman will get a win in a major open wheel series (a feat for which she, or anyone, should be congratulated for), but Ashley Force has won races, as have several other women in drag racing. Do they get the short end of the stick in favor of Danicamania?

And one comment to pvtjoker: please, please, please....there is no need to quote the entire post (especially when it's that long) to make a one line comment.

[Easy Drifter]

Shirley Muldowney

[heelntoe]

Thanks, DrJack, for finally giving us your thoughts on what happens next.

Remember though, and I know you know it, since you posted it, that the JDS case doesn't go to trial until October. Since it hasn't happened yet, no one has been convicted yet. The fact remains that the defendants may be guilty, but it's wise not to sentence them yet.

But you've pretty well convinced me of your pro-irl bias. Not that there's anything wrong with that....

About Danica getting her win....I really don't get how the world will change, except that a woman will get a win in a major open wheel series (a feat for which she, or anyone, should be congratulated for), but Ashley Force has won races, as have several other women in drag racing. Do they get the short end of the stick in favor of Danicamania?

And one comment to pvtjoker: please, please, please....there is no need to quote the entire post (especially when it's that long) to make a one line comment.

I also have to thank you Doc for using your fingers more than me to convey a lot of what I have felt or believed for a long time...I can't speak to your IRL portion of what's next cause I don't really know those guys, but I will say about your previous post: I think we must have met in late '03 because I had the same discussion with an Amigo with bad teeth :) ; Anyway, I agree with most of your thoughts and would add that PN will retire as a team owner; GF will be replaced as an Amigo; and PG will wait until the last second to run one car, if any at all. Best to you and feel free to PM me if you'd like to share some funny '03 stories.

[sanguin]

Thanks, DrJack, for finally giving us your thoughts on what happens next.

Remember though, and I know you know it, since you posted it, that the JDS case doesn't go to trial until October. Since it hasn't happened yet, no one has been convicted yet. The fact remains that the defendants may be guilty, but it's wise not to sentence them yet.

But you've pretty well convinced me of your pro-irl bias. Not that there's anything wrong with that....



There will be no convictions. Its a CIVIL class action lawsuit against the Company and 10 others are named. It's strictly about a money settlement. It may be settled before anything happens. It won't affect CC much to the dismay of the IRL fans.

[sanguin]

In response-

Rumors about CDW?I don't think so,made up by IRL fanatics trying to denigrate the series. Red bull may may be committed to nascar, although I think they are missing their target audience.

I don't think any CC teams will switch to IRL but 1 or more IRL teams may switch to CC.

CC is not for sale.If it were ,why wouldn't TG buy it.

The IRL will announce another street race(maybe) and TF will go into a tailspin. No one else will care. (see Sonoma)

Actually Jack ,if you would refrain from personal attacks and not taint your predictions with obvious bias, they 're not bad, but a little wishful on the IRL side. I don't think there will be a series sponsor without a merge. And the new car is just postering as it is just paper right now. Alot depends on manufacturer involvement and that's sketchy at best. I also think ABC/ESPN will flex some muscle on any contract extensions with the IRL and they will make them pay or get the 500 at a discount.As for IRL, it will be just more of the same.

BUT this is dead on-


Overall, my sense is that the Indy Car Series will continue to struggle for true credibility with drivers and the media if they remain hell bent on creating such obviously contrived racing in an effort to reach the mythical casual fan. To me, this is a key issue. Doesn't anyone pause and ask themselves if this tactic has worked? From the looks of it... no. Using ChampCar's current state as a competitive benchmark is also foolish at best.

I think the whole Split has been about underestimating how much damage would be done by alienating the generations of hard core auto racing fans who love and respect the Indy 500 and what it really stands for. I can’t imagine the NFL, MLB or the NBA taking the same risk. The closest things to this stupidity have been the MLB and NHL Strikes and you can plainly see how those actions helped each of those sports!


It's the reason why Milwaukee isn't succeeding.The trickle down effecct. A whole generation has not known or been exposed to the greatness of what INDY once was, because the alienated fans of the split have not taught them or taken them to the races or watched it with them on tv.It's played right into nsacar's advantage. There is only one person to blame and that is TG, he owns it and he broke it.

So CC forges on with its own identity and events not depending on just one to make them viable while IRL still tries to recreate the past. It's too late.

[pvtjoker]

while IRL still tries to recreate the past. It's too late.

Why do I get the feeling CC is doing the same?

[Quetch]

Why do I get the feeling CC is doing the same?

I don't know. I think Champ Car is trying to create something new, and that's exactly what you among others (including sometimes me) tend to criticize.

[Old3Fan]

Champ Car is mostly great racing, but it has become the playground of a few hobbyists, and just doesn't make any economic sense. Most of the teams could easily find homes in other racing series and we could move on to the future.

Just where? The IRL going around in circles pedal to the metal I think not. To F1 same I think not. Road racing series, maybe.

[beachbum]

Just where? Road racing series, maybe.PCM came from Grand-Am, some teams like Walker and Coyne have been around a long time and run wherever they can. They both have extensive oval experience. Stoddart will always find somewhere to land. The engineers and crew can easily move on to many other series. There will be some losers (in addition to the fans), but it won't be an apocalypse.

[FlatChatRacer]

Sanguin,

Do you think there will be some encouraging announcements from CCWS before the next race in Australia?

[ShiftingGears]

I don't know. I think Champ Car is trying to create something new, and that's exactly what you among others (including sometimes me) tend to criticize.

Whats new about it? Its like an F1 imitation series at the moment.

[fan-veteran]

Originally Posted by Quetch http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=342522#post342522)
I don't know. I think Champ Car is trying to create something new, and that's exactly what you among others (including sometimes me) tend to criticize.

Whats new about it? Its like an F1 imitation series at the moment.

Actually it is almost true. CCWS at the moment resembles F1 a little:
- power - 730 bhp - the same as F1
- tires - hard and soft option - the same in F1
- standing starts
- road and street circuits with a trend to spread in Europe, Asia.

Of course there are differences:
- cars are heavier (with fuel 650kg versus 820kg so-so during the race)
- turbo engines on methanol and PTP buttons
- 1hour45minutes basis of racing distance
- there is only one 'model' racing car for everybody

[fan-veteran]

And something more - i can see that TG and IRL are in a very good position now. Here is my opinion - it is a matter of time, maybe 2 or 3 years when the IRL may become in the matter of the schedule like old pre-split Indycar (if TG wants it of course). All to be done is to add another 2 road and 2 street races to the current schedule and remove 2 ovals and ... we have it. And if IRL uses a brand new car (maybe even rules) at that moment (after 2 or 3 years) things will be quite different from now. IRL will be more attractive to sponsors, spectators ... and drivers (because it will be less considered as a series where cars go around in circles). It will became like so desired MERGER series we want , BUT WITHOUT A MERGER!

[cy bais]

Agreed - one of the better posts as of late. Love the bit about the TG haters. God knows that there are other CC forums that live by the F* TG and BE motto.

Like the thread starter, i too love the racing in CC.

Cy

[sanguin]

And something more - i can see that TG and IRL are in a very good position now. Here is my opinion - it is a matter of time, maybe 2 or 3 years when the IRL may become in the matter of the schedule like old pre-split Indycar (if TG wants it of course). All to be done is to add another 2 road and 2 street races to the current schedule and remove 2 ovals and ... we have it. And if IRL uses a brand new car (maybe even rules) at that moment (after 2 or 3 years) things will be quite different from now. IRL will be more attractive to sponsors, spectators ... and drivers (because it will be less considered as a series where cars go around in circles). It will became like so desired MERGER series we want , BUT WITHOUT A MERGER!

TG and the IRL are not in a good position right now. Their plan to turn the IRL into CART-lite is failing. It will never be successful. Losing ovals and adding road and street races will be their downfall. From the beginning TG has fragmented the fan base with the creation of the IRL, and he keeps on doing with every attempt to try to make the IRL the old CART. He has taken teams ,drivers and tracks and nothing has worked.The road courses Sonoma and WG are not successful. Since Honda has secured St Pete and MId-Ohio, ALMS will continue to run at these venues with or without IRL. Same goes for Detroit, clearly, the freebie ticket holders showed up for the race on Sunday and it wasn't full. That event can always remain an ALMS venue with RP in that series regardless if IRL is there or not.In TG's attempt to copy CART he taken some the worst parts of it and the fans aren't following. The CARS are slow and old. The new car is not an option right now because the manufacturer situation remains unclear.

TG is too far behind and doesn't have enough options to even come close to being successful as CART was.The fans will never follow. Besides ,all things you mentioned are already in CC along with a paying fan base.

keep wishin' and hopin'.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Dr. Jack, I don't know whose horse you rode in on, and I have no idea why you dropped this little hand grenade in everyone's laps, but I thank you for it. One hundred and Ninety Three posts and we are still going at it.

First off, I wont breakdown your thoughts ( I know you are reading it you sneaky little devil, curiousity would have you look back to see what people thought of your post) but I will say you are dead on the money when you say that the IRL has NASCAR envy and CCWS has f1 Envy. It has been my contention all along that they should have CART envy, and now that the IRL is slowly coming to the realization a few ovals work, and a lot of other events can work, they are starting to turn their corner. Despite all the spin and propaganda by our friend Sanguin, that is happening. I don't have to like it, but I wont ignore it either.

CCWS is now on some new search for sanctioning fees, while events over here are slowly sliding if they are not making money. That in itself would be fine if the series was a) more well off and b) not losing a lot of good will and PR happiness when they do go. Vegas I suspect is on shakier legs than people will admit ( when the same guy deep sixes Phoenix in the way he did, you have to be nervous about another start up in Vegas) and if it goes, it is proof positive that CCWS doesn't care about its American partners. If THAT perception gets out there, it is GAME OVER people.

This series is American. Based in Indianapolis, its roots are there, and despite all the spin and bluster, its roots and history that is wants to deny at times are still there. If it becomes a world wide globe trotter, it better have someone paying the bills. We know KK isn't interested in paying them. Their TV contracts are a joke, and they have no national PR prescence. The IRL, for all its warts, promotes like crazy. Coming home Saturday morning, I heard Gene Simmons and later Marty Roth being interviewed about the IRL on FAN590, in Toronto. Now I have little time for either when it comes to racing, but the point is, the FAN hasn't had anyone from Champ Car on since the day the SteelBack GP left town. Not likely to either. The IRL promotes like mad, and uses whatever it can, and they stuck this right into the heart of Champ Car loyal Toronto on the main sports station. It is the little things like that that Champ Car is missing.

In their need to try to make money on EVERY event, they are not putting any money to the greater series promotion. What is more, the teams I don't think are getting much out of the overseas races, whereas we all have read about KK and the Amigo's getting their cake. Dale Coyne gets NOTHING out of racing in Europe, yet he goes, because that is what footsoldiers do.

No, What happens next is up to fate, but Dr. Jack is right to cast a jaundiced eye on the JDS/Uniphase thing and wonder. KK is up to his arms in that one, and while not convicted, the MO looks similar. Lots of Sizzle, little steak, and the big investors walked and cashed out while the little guy took a beat down. Right now we have CCWS ownership taking profit off events where they can, buying up proven assets such as Cosworth and a few events that will fill their pockets, but there is no steak to sell. There is no there there. You have no marketing plan, lousy TV rights ( in a sport that LIVES or DIES by TV money and exposure for the team sponsors ) and a product that isn't unique anymore. CART was unique. Different chassis, different tracks, AMERICAN in focus and with a few ovals to provide some scary speeds, followed up with excellent events on road and street courses. The fact the IRL ditched their old premise and is now emulating CART is great fun for me, since I called this one from the start that this is where TG was going, it just took him about a decade to figure it out ( I never said Tony was bright, I just know he is rich and venal).

The winner of this "war" will be the one that survives, and right now, for the first time in 12 years I think I know it wont be CCWS. I didn't say I want this outcome, but my once optimisitic outlook (look at old posts, or ask other members, and they will tell you I have stood by this series loyally for as long as I have posted here, and joined CCF for about 10 minutes before I realized they were a little nuts over there)is now gone.

In the future, I see maybe one, maybe two CCWS teams either fold or leave to go elsewhere. Not going to speculate who, but when the fight is this hard to survive, and then you have to learn to operate and BUY a new car while holding out hope you can find sponsors, it has to be taking a toll.

If we lose a team, hopefully we gain a couple. Europe might pay off, but unless it pays big in sponsors or new richer teams, it will not do much but line KK and the Amigo's depleted pockets. I predict one of the Amigo's will get out, and GF is the likely candidate. A new Sugar Daddy might come along, we shall see.

I believe we will lose one more event on the schedule, for it is just my opinion, but Vegas is vulernable. I have read too much, and notice who the promotor is to trust this guy as far as I can throw him. He will leave CC at the altar and make them look stupid again, and yet it will somehow be seen as a triumph to Sanguin, who is now officially trying to become the best unpaid employee of the organization.

I believe Steve Johnson will be heaved overboard. Good riddance....

I believe Cotman, and others will do excellent work trying to keep the pumps working as the ship is listing. I believe that Champ Car soldiers on for one more season, with mixed results.

Unless there is new ownership money and compentant leadership, this ship will go down. It isn't what I wish, but I feel that is the course we are seeing. You are seeing quick snap decisions to minimize losses being made when this series may require a lot more capital into marketing and PR. God knows they cant even keep the website up to date and useful at times, and if you cant get that right, what other PR mistakes are you making?

No, I don't see a bright future...but there is one if steps are taken.

AS for the IRL, well, I am on this forum, but lets just say they are not going away, but they are not getting much bigger...but they keep inching along, making forward progress. Instead of going for the long bomb, it seems TG has a bit of a ground game going now.....

[fan-veteran]

So, what happens next - my answer:

possibility one - after 2 or 3 years TG will by the CCWS series assets and we will have one big AOW series - IRL or IndyCar, with about 20 races and 26 cars on the grid. Is it good or bad - i think not bad, or at least better than now. Very likely IRL will introduce a new rules and new car(s).

possibility two - CCWS survives, finds it's own identity and becomes a well spread world series based in USA. For those participants who want to race/take part with a very fast OW cars , don't have a chance (or maybe even a desire) to participate in F1 and don't want to race on ovals.

[Cart750hp]

Sanguin,

Do you think there will be some encouraging announcements from CCWS before the next race in Australia?

He probably missed your question.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fan Veteran, despite all the crap you will hear here, option 1 is a greater likelyhood. When CCWS's ownership group realizes it will be a long slog to make serious money on going international, they will be looking for a way out. Paul Gentilozzi would sell out his mom for the right price, so I cant see him not listening to an offer from TG, and that goes for KK at some point as well. GF and Petit are the only two of the 4 names connected to the ownership that seem to have principles about NOT selling to Tony, but I know they like money too.

If CCWS makes it as F1 lite, by going to markets F1 is ignoring, remember A1GP is trying that...and it is losing money hand over fist. Now the product is different, but I find A1 races a hoot to watch, and unlike Champ Car, I can find them easily on Speed every winter. Even with that, they are getting clobbered. Different business model, but I have to believe that the only way you get rich by racing all over the orld is to start off really rich. Only f1 can pull it off, and they don't live in the real world anyhow.....

[Cart750hp]

In 2003, although Pook spent millions....I think he did better than SJ/KK this year. He tried to establish this series to its standards, not the desperation to as it is now. He kept 18-19 scheduled event (although California was cancelled due to the socal brushfire). The lineup of drivers were kept to 19 cars. CART name was still known next to F1 and NASCAR. IRL then was unprecedented series. He spent money to put the series in CSI Miami and promote it to an extent but the money stopped flowing. That's the sad part because the new owners made the series so cheap and amateur. They cancelled races and replaced the good tracks. On top of that, Pook proved that his lies weren't as bad as the current management, I tell you that.

[fan-veteran]

I believe that CCWS may become a much cheaper and much better semi-alternative to F1. Why a semi-alternative you may ask - it is obvious - because they are a very fast OW cars, next faster to F1, and have an option even be the fastest (excluding some exotics like dragsters). Also - there are not ovals. The lack of ovals is good (safety, cost issues in case of crashes, more world-wide-friendly for spectators, more driver-interest-friendly to participate) and bad (lack of exotics). But there is exotics in street circuits and it should be developed and explored.

But as the "spec cars" have their great advantages, they also have a disadvantage - no manufacturers could "enter" the series (you know that). If the rules are so restrictive to allow different manufacturers, but to provide almost identical cars then what will be the interest of participating (at least a big issues), and more important - the costs will go up.

So the series will be in this case like-amateur, but not so amateurish - because no amateur (or tunning maniac) could design and manufacture so fast, safe, reliable car (at that cost).

[sanguin]

You would be surprised to know that CC now operates in the black.

TG doesn't have a chance.

[heelntoe]

You would be surprised to know that CC now operates in the black.

TG doesn't have a chance.

CC does NOT operate in the black...not close by $18 million!!! That is the most disingenuous post I've ever read.

[jimispeed]

CC does NOT operate in the black...not close by $18 million!!! That is the most disingenuous post I've ever read.


How do you guys know these numbers, and where are the numbers?

[O&amp;A Virus]

How do you guys know these numbers, and where are the numbers?

Who knows if the series operates in the black or red. Most of the guys don't care what series they are racing just so long as they are racing. For example, Bobby D's chief engineer (as well as several members from various CC and Atlantic teams) are running PJ Chesson's efforts in Chicago today. Steve Horne is in Chicago today as well (let the rumors start flying). These guys just want to race.

[SeanMockery]

You would be surprised to know that CC now operates in the black.

TG doesn't have a chance.

You've been discredited several times before. Your stories only serve as a great disservice to the series you love. Stop already.

[sanguin]

CC does NOT operate in the black...not close by $18 million!!! That is the most disingenuous post I've ever read.

Link!

[sanguin]

CC does NOT operate in the black...not close by $18 million!!!

C'mon heelntoe, lets see your CC financials. A real link with real numbers. not some made up stuff either. Let's see it.

[sanguin]

One other thing, don't come here with old CART financials from 4 years ago, as you IRL fans like to do, and try to say they are the same for CC.

CCWS has nothing to do with the way CART operated financially, nothing.

[ChaimWitz]

I have been reading this thread and have enjoyed it because it pretty much sums up the sorry state of things on both sides along with how most fans I speak to feel. I decided to post something becuase I have insight into the the financials of both series and believe that neither comes close to breaking even. Since the subject of this tread is what happens next, I ask everyone here to consider the likely reality of the Champ Car and IRL financials.

Sanguin claims that Champ Car is in the black so from I have read of his posts, I can only assume he works for the owners of OWRS or he wouldn't make a satment like that. Right Mr. Sanguin?

If this is true, where then does the money come from to create this profit?

Sponsorship? TV income? Sanction fees such as Denver, Zuhai and Phoenix?
Or perhaps the promoters in the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz and Europe paying a premium for a series with questionable marque value, few stars and little portable commercial support.

Please Mr. Sanquin explain it to all of the foolish doubters.

Maybe the OWRS owners are simply reducing costs to the bare minimum and playing a shell game with promoters on these fees to make things look better to a potential buyer.

How much are the owners paying out of their own pockets to run mostly unsponsored cars, including K. Legge?

How much are they paying P. Stoddart for the F1 two seaters?

Where all this Champ Car income really coming from? Mazda? Bridgestone? Cooper Tires. Surely you jest.

Since no one is posting similar claims about the IRL I ask, where does the income come from for that series?

Sponsorship? TV income? Sanction fees? Indy 500?

How much money is T. George spending to fill the field for the 500 and the series?

Do the hypothetical math.

I promise you will be illuminating.

[sanguin]

CC financials are private but KK did tell us CCWS does not pay subsidies to the teams. This is true.
The Series is run like a business and was revamped from the old CART to stop the financial bleeding.

Take it or leave it, I don't care.

[Jag_Warrior]

How do you guys know these numbers, and where are the numbers?

Plain & simple: the numbers are in their heads. Unless one of the principals has decided to lay it out on Motorsport Forum, there is no way to know how much is being made or lost. What people tend to do is use a b@st@rdized form of backwards accounting, based on historical data from when CART was a public company (when such audited data was available).

There is a fellow on another forum, who has close ties to the series (no, not the one you're probably thinking of,,,,,) and he claims that the entity known as "Champ Car" is indeed turning a profit now. And that's entirely possible. Too many people assume that there is only one entity in play in the Champ Car World Series. While I seriously doubt that the mezzanine that makes up CCWS is anywhere near as deep or complex as the one that makes up Formula One, there is more than just one entity. And so it's very possible for one to be turning a profit, even if the other 3, 4 or 5 are not.

But the bottomline is, we're talking about private concerns here. And anyone who would tell you to the dollar what is being made or lost is likely full of message board shizzle. As Q&A Virus pointed out, the teams and drivers don't need to know, so why do the fans?

[heelntoe]

C'mon heelntoe, lets see your CC financials. A real link with real numbers. not some made up stuff either. Let's see it.

Sanguin, there is no link and frankly, I don't need to provide one...I was in business with OWRS/CCWS when most of the deals that are in effect today were negotiated...I have just one question for you regarding this matter...who is Jim Cox and why would he know better than you how much money CCWS is in the red or black? If you can answer this question, then I will be happy to go on reading the tripe that's been around this forum for the past month or so.

[sanguin]

Sanguin, there is no link and frankly, I don't need to provide one...I was in business with OWRS/CCWS when most of the deals that are in effect today were negotiated...

So nothing then,just as I thought.

PS, I don't believe for one minute that you know all the deals in CC.
we're not that gullible.

I'm just a fan.

[tbyars]

CC financials are private but KK did tell us CCWS does not pay subsidies to the teams.

We also know that KK does not always tell the truth, based on how he has to respond to the situation. Case in point, last weekend at the news conference, KK said none of the owners had spoken to TG in a year.

That is a lie.

By his own statements, KK had previously said that he talked with TG in February about Honda provding engines so a few CC teams could run at Indy. "But I was serious." were KK's own words.

So he lied.

What makes you think he is not lying about offereing subsidies to teams?

[tbyars]

So nothing then,just as I thought.

PS, I don't believe for one minute that you know all the deals in CC.
we're not that gullible.

I'm just a fan.

Who is "we're"?

Time and time again, heelntoe has proven his credibility.

What's your record of credibility? If you are who I think you are, let's go all the way back to the CART stock days.

[sanguin]

We also know that KK does not always tell the truth, based on how he has to respond to the situation. Case in point, last weekend at the news conference, KK said none of the owners had spoken to TG in a year.

That is a lie.

By his own statements, KK had previously said that he talked with TG in February about Honda provding engines so a few CC teams could run at Indy. "But I was serious." were KK's own words.

So he lied.

What makes you think he is not lying about offereing subsidies to teams?

Are you really serious with that crap? :rolleyes:

Ask the teams,really.

[heelntoe]

So nothing then,just as I thought.

PS, I don't believe for one minute that you know all the deals in CC.
we're not that gullible.

I'm just a fan.

As I expected, you don't know one of the most key players in the design of the CART acquisition AND the original AND current CCWS business models...and the man who oversees the financials! Now everyone on this forum can be rest assured that they are too not so gullible as to believe a single post you have provided. Your spin is OVER and I am happily off to the tennis finals knowing that CCWS could not have been so dim as to hire someone with no knowledge...IMO, of course!

[Jag_Warrior]

Heelntoe, is Jim Cox the current COO or corporate counsel? If not, then I would say that while he might have a better idea of what's currently going on, he likely doesn't know exactly what's going on either.

I am no where near the league that the principals of CCWS (or the IRL) occupy. And for the past 20+ years, even I have put together entities that angry ex-wives and their attorneys couldn't crack into. Only if someone, who sees the books of a private entity, decides to share that financial information (and they are honest about it), would you (truly) know. If that's not the case, you will not, and do not know. This isn't rocket science. I'm not sure why people have such an issue with it.

This isn't a slap at you (or Sanguin). I have no dog in this pointless pi$$ing match. But to put it bluntly, neither of you knows for a fact whether the entity known as "Champ Car" makes or loses money.

[sanguin]

Who is "we're"?

Time and time again, heelntoe has proven his credibility.

.

Not to me he hasn't. There's no proof of anything he says about himself and about this series.

[sanguin]

Heelntoe, is Jim Cox the current COO or corporate counsel? If not, then I would say that while he might have a better idea of what's currently going on, he likely doesn't know exactly what's going on either.

I am no where near the league that the principals of CCWS (or the IRL) occupy. And for the past 20+ years, even I have put together entities that angry ex-wives and their attorneys couldn't crack into. Only if someone, who sees the books of a private entity, decides to share that financial information (and they are honest about it), would you (truly) know. If that's not the case, you will not, and do not know. This isn't rocket science. I'm not sure why people have such an issue with it.

This isn't a slap at you (or Sanguin). I have no dog in this pointless pi$$ing match. But to put it bluntly, neither of you knows for a fact whether the entity known as "Champ Car" makes or loses money.

JAG, I agree. thanks.

[tbyars]

Are you really serious with that crap? :rolleyes:

Ask the teams,really.

Yes, I am.

KK was quoted by several sources that he talked to TG in February about Indy. You can't just throw away those quotes because you don't like them.

Then, last weekend he said he hadn't talked to TG for a year.

Obviously, he lied.

Sorry, you can't dispute that.

KK lies. I just proved it. Prove that he didn't lie about the subsidies.

[Jag_Warrior]

We also know that KK does not always tell the truth, based on how he has to respond to the situation. Case in point, last weekend at the news conference, KK said none of the owners had spoken to TG in a year.

That is a lie.

If that's what he had said, yes it would be a lie. But that's not what he said.

I also do not think that Kalkhoven always tells the truth. But you need a better example to prove the point.

[sanguin]

Yes, I am.

KK was quoted by several sources that he talked to TG in February about Indy. You can't just throw away those quotes because you don't like them.

Then, last weekend he said he hadn't talked to TG for a year.

Obviously, he lied.

Sorry, you can't dispute that.

KK lies. I just proved it. Prove that he didn't lie about the subsidies.

Ask the TEAMS, e-mail them.

You're little hissy fit about a phone call about indy is so typical of the wringing of hands that goes on at TF trying denigrate the series. It's laughable at best.

[tbyars]

If that's what he had said, yes it would be a lie. But that's not what he said.

"I can absolutely tell you that no one in Champ Car management or I or Paul or Dan or Jerry have had any conversations with the IRL in a year," said Kalkhoven."

[tbyars]

You're little hissy fit about a phone call about indy is so typical of the wringing of hands that goes on at TF trying denigrate the series. It's laughable at best.

You write it off as "laughable" because that is the only way you can dispell it. You can't approach it logically, because there is no logic in your position.

[Jag_Warrior]

""I can absolutely tell you that no one in Champ Car management or I or Paul or Dan or Jerry have had any conversations with the IRL in a year," said Kalkhoven."

Like I said, what is YOUR record of credibility?

Somewhat better than your comprehensive skills, apparently. At first you quoted Kalkhoven as stating that he had not had discussions with Tony George, then you provide the actual quote where it was "the IRL". As they are not the same entity, which is it?

Hopefully you fellows have a better understanding of home ec. than you do of (basic) business and legal entities.

[tbyars]

Yet, Jag, you guys would be the first to say that "if he was talking to TG, he was talking to the IRL."

I would just say that if you are talking with the OWNER of the IRL, you are talking to the IRL. Especially when you are talking about participation in the IRL's largest race.

BTW, make sure you see my PM.

[Jag_Warrior]

I did and I appreciate that. Thank you.

But now, as for this "you guys" comment, you apparently didn't get the memo that I don't drink the Kool-Aid from either series. Other than commenting on what a trainwreck BOTH series have become, I basically don't take sides these days. I simply stated the difference between what you claimed Kalkhoven said, and what he actually said.

To get the fur on my neck up, you'd have to take a swipe at Lewis Hamilton or something that I genuinely care about. All I'm doing here is commenting on two racing series which are both on life support, and a form of racing that appears to be dying in America.

[tbyars]

Lewis Hamilton? What a wuss!!! ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

:D

[john2112]

Maybe the OWRS owners are simply reducing costs to the bare minimum and playing a shell game with promoters on these fees to make things look better to a potential buyer.


I don’t know what they may or may not be doing as to making their financials appealing for a potential buyer, but I’ve seen what they present to a potential/actual promoter. The only thing I can figure is Mazda and Bridgestone are paying ad rates that would be more applicable to a broadcast with 4 or 5 times the viewership CC is getting. But as they say, "it looks good on paper".

-John

[ChaimWitz]

I don’t know what they may or may not be doing as to making their financials appealing for a potential buyer, but I’ve seen what they present to a potential/actual promoter. The only thing I can figure is Mazda and Bridgestone are paying ad rates that would be more applicable to a broadcast with 4 or 5 times the viewership CC is getting. But as they say, "it looks good on paper".

-John

I also suspect that what these companies are paying is very little in terms of actual dollars so that only compounds the problem.

All this reminds me of Jim Fruedenberg reportedly pointing to "his success" in Denver as indicator of the potential "success" in Vegas and Phoenix. Funny how that turned out to be true. I am told that the Fruedster promised 180,000 fans (like Denver-what a joke on both accounts) would be in town this past Easter. Right. Sure I will buy some more Enron stock please!

The point of this thread is what happens next isn't it? Money seems to have a lot to do with that doesn't it?

So show me the money!

Where is all this income coming from to put the series 'in the black" as the owners of OWRS claim?

Promoters? That seems to be what they would have us all believe. Well, scratch China and Phoenix. I hear talk that Vegas and other North American promoters are balking at paying what is asked too because ChampCar has not been delivering what they promised. The rumor is out there that the Vegas GP is being shopped ... but so far no takers. I also hear that Vegas, Houston, Cleveland, San Jose, St. Jovite and, Edmonton all lost serious dollars in 2007.

Dr Jack nailed the reason: There is simply no economy in Champ Car.

It is obvious that Sanquin is fanatically invested in being right about ChampCar and he is one of the 'Internet Operatives" that the owners confide in and ask to defend against those who doubt. Just look at the sheer number of posts he has in only nine days under his current screen name.

I ask everyone to go back to my other post and do the math. Consider how much income ChampCar and IndyCar can really have and how much expense that they both must deal with.

I think that will offer a clue to what happens next and that has nothing to do with ChampCar turning a phantom profit.

One thing that has happened next is that the latest, greatest new European sponsor AKA Trust has now gone to GP2. I guess they didn't trust ChampCar to deliver on the promises made or the found more value in the stability and comparative legitimacy of GP2 which soon gets a faster and sexier new car along with a direct linkage to F1 which is where most of the sponsors that the Kalkhoven and Co. are now targeting really want to be.

Then there is the coming defection of Dario Franchiiti and Sam Hornish to NASCAR... that is also about money. Losing both hurts all of open wheel racing in the USA. Until there is one series, this sort of thing will continue to happen.

I loved CART and yes I know it is dead but IMHO, ChampCar and the IRL are both are trying to practice identity theft and most of us can spot a fake. I agree with Dr. Jack, I want The Real Thing and that starts with the truth.

[sanguin]

We "hear " a lot of things too.

Put up some links,otherwise its just unfounded rumors trying to denigrate the series.

We'll wait.

dr, jack.

[sanguin]

I also suspect that what these companies are paying is very little in terms of actual dollars so that only compounds the problem.

I suspect they are paying what's agreed to. They obviously have a contract and want to be in CC.


The point of this thread is what happens next isn't it? Money seems to have a lot to do with that doesn't it?

So show me the money!

Where is all this income coming from to put the series 'in the black" as the owners of OWRS claim?

It's right there in the financials of CC,which you are not privey to.


Promoters? That seems to be what they would have us all believe. Well, scratch China and Phoenix. I hear talk that Vegas and other North American promoters are balking at paying what is asked too because ChampCar has not been delivering what they promised. The rumor is out there that the Vegas GP is being shopped ... but so far no takers. I also hear that Vegas, Houston, Cleveland, San Jose, St. Jovite and, Edmonton all lost serious dollars in 2007.

Please provide a link, you couldn't be more wrong.


Dr Jack nailed the reason: There is simply no economy in Champ Car.

in your opinion, I think he/you are wrong.


It is obvious that Sanquin is fanatically invested in being right about ChampCar and he is one of the 'Internet Operatives" that the owners confide in and ask to defend against those who doubt. Just look at the sheer number of posts he has in only nine days under his current screen name.

huh?


One thing that has happened next is that the latest, greatest new European sponsor AKA Trust has now gone to GP2. I guess they didn't trust ChampCar to deliver on the promises made or the found more value in the stability and comparative legitimacy of GP2 which soon gets a faster and sexier new car along with a direct linkage to F1 which is where most of the sponsors that the Kalkhoven and Co. are now targeting really want to be.

you guessed wrong.how would you know what Trust thinks? reaching.
Trust may or may not have a team in CC, but will probably be a sponsor.


Then there is the coming defection of Dario Franchiiti and Sam Hornish to NASCAR... that is also about money. Losing both hurts all of open wheel racing in the USA. Until there is one series, this sort of thing will continue to happen.

I'm not sure it hurts CC, I know what's wrong in IRL, but I'm not talking about it. ;)

[sanguin]

Sanguin, there is no link and frankly, I don't need to provide one...I was in business with OWRS/CCWS when most of the deals that are in effect today were negotiated...I have just one question for you regarding this matter...who is Jim Cox and why would he know better than you how much money CCWS is in the red or black? If you can answer this question, then I will be happy to go on reading the tripe that's been around this forum for the past month or so.

Is Jim Cox divulging CC financials to you? Were you with KPLJ Ventures?

[heelntoe]

Is Jim Cox divulging CC financials to you? Were you with KPLJ Ventures?

As a matter of fact, Jim Cox, who is KK's right arm and works for a little company called Ernst, helped prepare and oversaw the due diligence book for the acquisition of CART for people like ME!!! JC prepares checks for and even helps decide how much of his clients money goes to an untold number of payees. JC knows more about the CURRENT day-to-day financial health of CCWS than anyone, even more than at least one of the Amigos :)

I have no further interest in playing into your nonsense and frankly, your constant comparison to the IRL only hurts CCWS as it forces more to look closer to the actual business operations of the two series and in that respect, there is no comparison.

Oh, and IMG has no interest in repping CCWS as I just left the guys that would be responsible for working on such an account. Laughable was the quote I got and after sitting watching a sport where attendance is irrefutable, sponsors are endless and the product is as exciting as any sport could be, I understand why. Sanguin, if you want to actually do something good for CCWS, do like Gary and Jimispeed, initiate constructive ideas for what might fix the problems...of which there are many!

[sanguin]

As a matter of fact, Jim Cox, who is KK's right arm and works for a little company called Ernst, helped prepare and oversaw the due diligence book for the acquisition of CART for people like ME!!! JC prepares checks for and even helps decide how much of his clients money goes to an untold number of payees. JC knows more about the CURRENT day-to-day financial health of CCWS than anyone, even more than at least one of the Amigos :)

I have no further interest in playing into your nonsense and frankly, your constant comparison to the IRL only hurts CCWS as it forces more to look closer to the actual business operations of the two series and in that respect, there is no comparison.

Oh, and IMG has no interest in repping CCWS as I just left the guys that would be responsible for working on such an account. Laughable was the quote I got and after sitting watching a sport where attendance is irrefutable, sponsors are endless and the product is as exciting as any sport could be, I understand why. Sanguin, if you want to actually do something good for CCWS, do like Gary and Jimispeed, initiate constructive ideas for what might fix the problems...of which there are many!

ditto to you too. I stand by what I said about CC. If Jim Cox is telling you things, that is a matter for the owners to handle. Especially you posting numbers that are supposed to be private.

I never said anything about IMG. Sounds like you're into nascar.good luck with that.

[garyshell]

You would be surprised to know that CC now operates in the black.


For someone who continues to challenge folks to prove what they say you sure as hell like to play it fast and loose don't you? Ok, put up or shut up. What PROOF do you have to back that up? I hope it is true, I'd like nothing better. But I've sat by for over a week watching the damage YOU have been doing. "The damage", you ask? Yes the damage. No matter what anyone says that may be in the slightest way deemed derogatory by you, (even if it is said by someone know to be a real OWRS supporter, by the folks who have been here a very long time) you attack it or make up some STUPID comment like the one above. You are giving OWRS fans a bad name by your continuous illogical comments. But then again maybe thats your intent, who knows, who cares.

So time's up. Time for YOU to be called out in the same way you call out others. Where's YOUR damn proof? No sliding off on to some side arguement, no dismissing me as an IRL supporter (my hatred for the series is legend here). Let's focus purely and simply on this comment you made. Where is the link, quote any manner of proof you'd like to provide will suffice.

I would love to know they are in the black, nothing would make me happier.

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

Sanguin, thank you for thinking of me as being one in the same with the good Dr. I'll take that as a compliment. I also want to give a shout out to Heelntoe for stating the obvious in his most recent post: Comparison of the two open wheel series on a business level really is illuminating in a very unfortuante way for OWRS. Despite this, the IRL lads seem to be suffering a spot of bother this week with the prospect of losing not one but two of their most recent champions. A third champ would have left if Dan Wheldon could have talked Chippy into giving him a NASCAR seat.

If one looks at the open wheel champions on both side of the split since 1995 the picture is not encouraging:

CART/ChampCar:
1995 Champ: J. Villeneuve, 1997 F1 Champ now in NASCAR Trucks;
1996 Champ: J. Vasser, Semi retired and now a team owner in Champ Car;
1997-1998 Champ: A. Zanardi (thankfully alive) racing in Touring Cars;
1999 Champ: Juan Pablo Montoya; 2000 Indy 500 winner now racing in NASCAR Nextel Cup;
2000-2001 Champ: G. DeFerran, 2003 Indy 500 Champ, retired;
2002 Champ: C. DaMatta, sidelined by Champ Car accident
2003 Champ: P. Tracy still racing in Champ Cars;
2004-2007 Champ: S. Bourdais, headed to F1 in third tier team

Champions still active as Champ Car drivers: 1 - Paul Tracy

IRL IndyCar Series:
1996 IRL Co-Champs: S. Sharp still racing in IRL, B Clakins, who knows?
1997 Champ: T. Stewart, 2 time Nextel Cup Champ racing in NASCAR
1998 Champ: K. Brack, 1999 Indy 500 winner, retired
1999 Champ: G. Ray, retired due to lack of interest by teams
2000 Champ: B. Lazier, semi retired due to lack of interest by teams
2001, 2002 and 2006 Champ: S. Hornish, 2006 Indy 500 winner is probably NASCAR Sprint Cup bound in 2008.
2003 Champ: S. Dixon, still racing in the Indy Car Series
2004 Champ: T. Kannan, still racing in the Indy Car Series
2005 Champ: D. Wheldon, still racing in the Indy Car Series but wishes he was in NASCAR.
2007 Champ: D. Franchitti, 2007 Indy 500 winner is probably NASCAR Sprint Cup bound in 2008.

Champions still active as Indy Car drivers (as of this writing): 4.5 - Scott, Sharp (.5) ; Sam Hornish (3); Scott Dixon; Tony Kannan, Dario Franchitti.

Within a week this could be down to 2.5 champions left in the Indy Car series plus one two time Indy 500 winner who can't seem to win a championship.

This situation is really hard to overcome and it has everything to do with money. One fair sized NASCAR car team has twice the overall economy of the entire ChampCar World Series. The biggest NASCAR teams have more dollars and sponsors than the entire Indy Car Series. Meanwhile, people like Sanguin try to convice us that ChampCar is somehow making a profit and all is rosy with the promoters and the teams. Can you sell me some more Enron shares please?

[sanguin]

For someone who continues to challenge folks to prove what they say you sure as hell like to play it fast and loose don't you? Ok, put up or shut up. What PROOF do you have to back that up? I hope it is true, I'd like nothing better. But I've sat by for over a week watching the damage YOU have been doing. "The damage", you ask? Yes the damage. No matter what anyone says that may be in the slightest way deemed derogatory by you, (even if it is said by someone know to be a real OWRS supporter, by the folks who have been here a very long time) you attack it or make up some STUPID comment like the one above. You are giving OWRS fans a bad name by your continuous illogical comments. But then again maybe thats your intent, who knows, who cares.

So time's up. Time for YOU to be called out in the same way you call out others. Where's YOUR damn proof? No sliding off on to some side arguement, no dismissing me as an IRL supporter (my hatred for the series is legend here). Let's focus purely and simply on this comment you made. Where is the link, quote any manner of proof you'd like to provide will suffice.

I would love to know they are in the black, nothing would make me happier.

Gary

Sure, It's my opinion ,just like others with no links. It's my opinion from people I know and from what I've "heard". Happy? I said you don't have to believe it, take it for what it is.I don't have to believe anyone else who doesn't have proof either no matter how posts they have.

As far as damaging anything ,that's YOUR opinion.I think unfound rumors are much more damamging and are being used to denigrate the series.That's MY opinion.

I rather talk about CC and racing than other posters.

Looking forward to Surfer's ,did you see my news thread?

Lexmark Indy had their kickoff.

See you in 2008!

[ChaimWitz]

Unfounded rumors have a name here: Sanguin.

[garyshell]

You would be surprised to know that CC now operates in the black.


Sure, It's my opinion ,just like others with no links. It's my opinion from people I know and from what I've "heard". Happy? I said you don't have to believe it, take it for what it is.I don't have to believe anyone else who doesn't have proof either no matter how posts they have.

As far as damaging anything ,that's YOUR opinion.I think unfound rumors are much more damamging and are being used to denigrate the series.That's MY opinion.

As expected a duck and weave. Nope it won't fly. Show me where in your original message that you indicated this was your opinion. Nope, you stated it as if it were a fact. There was no "I think" or "in my opinion" there was there? Now for a quick lesson in linguistics, without such a disclaimer the statement is considered to be a factual expression.

Further the question at hand is not about OTHERS with no links. This is about YOUR statement (not opinion, a statement) about the series being in the black. A statement with nothing to back it up. A statement that when called out now becomes an opinion.

It is just this sort of illogical ramblings that is what I was talking about when I said you are doing damage. And yes that is my opinion, further it is my opinion that such behavior IS much more detrimental than the obvious unfounded rumors. You make fans of OWRS appear to be a bunch of fools.

Gary

[sanguin]

CC financials are private but KK did tell us CCWS does not pay subsidies to the teams. This is true.
The Series is run like a business and was revamped from the old CART to stop the financial bleeding.

Take it or leave it, I don't care.

right here Gary, from page 11.

Sorry you're so upset.

[garyshell]

Originally Posted by sanguin http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343740#post343740)
CC financials are private but KK did tell us CCWS does not pay subsidies to the teams. This is true.
The Series is run like a business and was revamped from the old CART to stop the financial bleeding.

Take it or leave it, I don't care.


right here Gary, from page 11.

Sorry you're so upset.


I am still waiting for something besides a duck and weave. There is NOTHING in that quote to indicate the series is in the black. It only says that there are no subsidies to the teams. How the hell does that equate to turning a profit? I still await your proof.

Gary

[tbyars]

Well, here is my opinion.

Once upon a time, there was a poster who used the screen name Zero.

He posted a lot on 7th Gear in its day, posted for a while right here. He even posted for about 2 days on TF before he got his fanny bumped off.

He had no sources. As he told me once, he was just smarter than all the rest of us, and able to figure "all this stuff out by the things he read on the forums."

He was NEVER wrong, no matter how off the wall his predictions. Even when proven wrong, he would tell you why he was right anyway.

At times, he told us he was a journalist. At times, he told us he was an insider. At times, he told us he was "just a fan."

Back then, he was telling us why CART, in spite of the dropping stock prices, was on the verge of greatness. Back then, he was telling us that the IRL would never answer the bell "next year."

He never used spaces after his commas; funny habit for a "journalist," I thought.

Basically, he made a fool of himself, and no one, on EITHER side of the split, could stomach him. That is a pretty rare talent.

He probably did more to bring the two side together, in his way, than anyone at that time I can think of.

My opinion is that Zero has returned. I just wonder why he changed his screen name?

Just an opinion, mind you...

[ChaimWitz]

It was late 2003 and a certain OWRS leader (who resembles a Klingon) told me and an associate that Champ Car would be "in the black within 18 months". Then in late 2004 the same man stated that "the series would break even by the end of 2005"; at the end of 2005 this prescient fellow told me that "the company will break even in 2006". Now Sanguin is telling us ChampCar is finally in the back. Whew, this comes as such a relief to me because I can't see how they have managed to do it given the lack of any real income outside of the sanction fees. If this is all true like Sanguin claims, there is hope for two open wheel racing series in North America after all. It also means that the Indy Car Series must be making serious money now by comparison since it has the Indy 500, a TV contract that pays the series rather than the other way around, teams with sponsorship, promoters playing sanction fees and a manufacturer that activiates with advertising beyond the race broadcasts. The IRL also still has a pulse on network and cable TV, as opposed to Champ Car. Please, Sanguin, help us understand those boffo Champ Car ratings from Europe and do take a moment out of your busy bee ChampCar cheerleading schedule to explain why the Indy Car Series also has a larger audience on the web. Also please tell us how all this can be happening given that the IRL is supposedly on death's door.

The subject of this thread is what happens next so I simply can't wait for more fantastic news from Sanguin and his friends who are now running Champ Car like a business. I also hope they never are involved in any business I am involved with given their "success". I have one burning question for Sanguin: If you are just a fan, how do you know the financial details of OWRS and the Champ Car World Series? It really is a fair question given all you claim to know.

[sanguin]

Sure, It's my opinion ,just like others with no links. It's my opinion from people I know and from what I've "heard". Happy? I said you don't have to believe it, take it for what it is.I don't have to believe anyone else who doesn't have proof either no matter how posts they have.

As far as damaging anything ,that's YOUR opinion.I think unfound rumors are much more damamging and are being used to denigrate the series.That's MY opinion.

I rather talk about CC and racing than other posters.

Looking forward to Surfer's ,did you see my news thread?

Lexmark Indy had their kickoff.

See you in 2008!

Yea Gary, I want more proof too for alot of things on this forum, and I keep asking,but I don't think I'm going to get it either.

At least I have good news, most stuff is just to denigrate the series.IMHO

see you 2008!

[sanguin]

It was late 2003 and a certain OWRS leader (who resembles a Klingon) told me and an associate that Champ Car would be "in the black within 18 months". Then in late 2004 the same man stated that "the series would break even by the end of 2005"; at the end of 2005 this prescient fellow told me that "the company will break even in 2006". Now Sanguin is telling us ChampCar is finally in the back. Whew, this comes as such a relief to me because I can't see how they have managed to do it given the lack of any real income outside of the sanction fees. If this is all true like Sanguin claims, there is hope for two open wheel racing series in North America after all. It also means that the Indy Car Series must be making serious money now by comparison since it has the Indy 500, a TV contract that pays the series rather than the other way around, teams with sponsorship, promoters playing sanction fees and a manufacturer that activiates with advertising beyond the race broadcasts. The IRL also still has a pulse on network and cable TV, as opposed to Champ Car. Please, Sanguin, help us understand those boffo Champ Car ratings from Europe and do take a moment out of your busy bee ChampCar cheerleading schedule to explain why the Indy Car Series also has a larger audience on the web. Also please tell us how all this can be happening given that the IRL is supposedly on death's door.

The subject of this thread is what happens next so I simply can't wait for more fantastic news from Sanguin and his friends who are now running Champ Car like a business. I also hope they never are involved in any business I am involved with given their "success". I have one burning question for Sanguin: If you are just a fan, how do you know the financial details of OWRS and the Champ Car World Series? It really is a fair question given all you claim to know.

Who cares about the IRL? They don't have any bearing on CC's business plan.

[Cart750hp]

Who cares about the IRL? They don't have any bearing on CC's business plan.

You should listen to yourself. Stop comparing IRL since, as we speak, they are in a better road than CC. What business plan? I don't see IRL getting their schedule getting cancelled event every year. This year, CC had two. If you think, sorry that's understated. Let me rephrase, if you want to believe that CC is in good standing, tell me what is bad standing for you? So if you want to bash IRL, this is not the place for that. We're not interested in your broad anti-IRL and especially your wishful thinking of CC. There's another site for that kind of thinking, I think you already came from that place.

Slow down, my man. You're not impressing anyone here and soon no one would wish and waste time reading your posts. Let alone talking to you. Take it easy.

[garyshell]

Yea Gary, I want more proof too for alot of things on this forum, and I keep asking,but I don't think I'm going to get it either.

At least I have good news, most stuff is just to denigrate the series.IMHO

see you 2008!


I'm still waiting. You made the statement that OWRS is making a profit. I am still waiting for you to back up that statement. I could care less what YOU are waiting on. So now you are saying you have no proof is that correct? You are now saying you just made this statement up, is that correct?

You don't have good news. You have illogical pronouncements that make OWRS fans look stupid. We aren't. You are NOT helping the cause.

Gary

[sanguin]

You should listen to yourself. Stop comparing IRL since, as we speak, they are in a better road than CC. What business plan? I don't see IRL getting their schedule getting cancelled event every year. This year, CC had two. If you think, sorry that's understated. Let me rephrase, if you want to believe that CC is in good standing, tell me what is bad standing for you? So if you want to bash IRL, this is not the place for that. We're not interested in your broad anti-IRL and especially your wishful thinking of CC. There's another site for that kind of thinking, I think you already came from that place.

That is YOUR opinion.I guess that says it all.Question,this is the CC forum for CC fans ,right? You seem to be a fan of IRL ,they have a forum too.

Yes I am a fan of CC and want them to succeed,or I wouldn't be posting in the CC forum.

[sanguin]

I'm still waiting. You made the statement that OWRS is making a profit. I am still waiting for you to back up that statement. I could care less what YOU are waiting on. So now you are saying you have no proof is that correct? You are now saying you just made this statement up, is that correct?

You don't have good news. You have illogical pronouncements that make OWRS fans look stupid. We aren't. You are NOT helping the cause.

Gary

how many times do I have to post it-

Sure, It's my opinion ,just like others with no links. It's my opinion from people I know and from what I've "heard". Happy? I said you don't have to believe it, take it for what it is.I don't have to believe anyone else who doesn't have proof either no matter how posts they have.

As far as damaging anything ,that's YOUR opinion.I think unfound rumors are much more damaging and are being used to denigrate the series.That's MY opinion.

If CC being solvent makes you mad, I can't help you.

I guess you rather believe the others and their agenda, so be it. IMO