Should "Buschwhacking" be stopped?

[Nick Brad]

I was just thinking, with the increased influx of well known drivers wanting to make their way into NASCAR as well as the plethora of experienced drivers around, some of them struggling to find a seat, should Nextel Cup drivers be barred from running in the Busch series?
The Busch series has been reduced to almost a testing session for most teams and I personally would prefer to see order restored and Busch be used as a proper rung in the Nascar ladder again. I have no objection to teams running cars in multiple series, there's a wealth of experience there that shouldn't be torn out of Busch or Craftsman Trucks, but the drivers shouldn't be able to race in multiple series IMO.
If the drivers want more racing, let them go run a late model car at the local speedway. Then the speedway benefits from having a "celebrity" driver in the race thus boosting spectators and keeping the local tracks alive which has a positive knock on effect for the future of oval racing.

What do you guys think?

[champcarjon]

I think limits on how many Busch/Truck races a Cup driver can do would be an idea. Also making them start from the back, Don't award points or make them dontate any earnings to good causes would be good too. However the introduction of the CoT for all races from 2008 should make Buschwhacking less of a test session. I think its going to impractical having cup drivers go off to late model races all over the place with the calendar as jam packed as it is right now.

[Nick Brad]

I was thinking more along the lines of whatever short track is local to the Nascar circus at the time.
There must be at least 1 short track within a 50 mile radius of every NNC venue which could benefit from a "celebrity" dropping in to play. I like the donating earnings idea, the points don't really come into play anyway,(unless people can point out different). I don't want to see them limited to certain races though, there's plenty of talented drivers out there who lose a slot in the race every time a Nextel Cup driver starts, all the effort they put into their programs only to not make the show.....

[BenRoethig]

I believe in something similar to the 7-race rule for the ROY standings. More than seven races in any one lower series and you're not eligible for the chase. The Busch series was great when you had the "B" level veterans with the Young guns. Now its just a preview for the cup race.

[Sparky1329]

At this point if all the Buschwackers stopped racing there would only be a handful of teams racing. By failing to support the independent team owners NASCAR wrecked the series and created the monster but one fact remains. Without at least some Cup drivers showing up to race the series would cease to exist.

[muggle not]

At this point if all the Buschwackers stopped racing there would only be a handful of teams racing. By failing to support the independent team owners NASCAR wrecked the series and created the monster but one fact remains. Without at least some Cup drivers showing up to race the series would cease to exist.
You got that right. Read on.

NASCAR's once-promising negotiations with Subway to title sponsor its No. 2 series have hit the skids, sources say, and the sanctioning body has spent the last few weeks revisiting many of the brands that initially turned down the sponsorship. KFC, Dunkin' Donuts and Allstate, each of which had been contenders for the sponsorship earlier in the process, are among the companies NASCAR has approached in the last few weeks as its tries to replace Anheuser-Busch. A-B sponsored the Busch Series for 25 years before deciding to make this its final season. Subway, which was considered the front-runner 30 to 60 days ago, remains in talks with NASCAR, but industry insiders no longer characterize America's largest restaurant chain as the favorite. As NASCAR seeks a new title sponsor, industry insiders say the price is dropping. NASCAR was asking $30 million a year when it began the sales process in the first quarter of the year, but that figure has dropped by nearly half. -- Sports Business Journal

[RaceFanStan]

The bottom line is that for the affordable price of a Busch Series race ticket,
a NASCAR fan gets to see several Cup drivers compete against each other,
now that is getting a big bang for your buck IMO ! :D


Stop "Busch-wacking" ?
I don't see any good reason why to do that ...
Cup drivers in Busch races have increased sponsor participation ...
the Cup teams involved have upped the performance level of the Busch Series ...
the Cup drivers also provide a measuring stick for the Busch Series driver. :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

Stan, I wont disagree entirely, but at some point, the big stars coming into Busch have also made it so tough for the smaller teams to compete. The days of Earnhardt showing up and running his own team for Busch, or maybe Mark Martin driving for Roush were the thin edge of the wedge. Now everyone is doing it, and they are bringing some big money, big time Cup owners in with them. They drove out the smaller teams because they couldn't compete. Yet, it aint Cup, so what does it all mean? You don't see F1 teams running an old car in GP2 or any other big series overpowering their ladder series.

Some sort of system should be set up so the big guys can compete, but there is a Busch only class of guys.

Also, I think NASCAR wont get the sponsorship money they want from this deal. Everyone wants to be part of the Cup series....being second banana doesn't work for CEO's signing 30 million dollar checks for sponsorships.

[call_me_andrew]

I believe in something similar to the 7-race rule for the ROY standings. More than seven races in any one lower series and you're not eligible for the chase. The Busch series was great when you had the "B" level veterans with the Young guns. Now its just a preview for the cup race.

I agree with every word of that.


At this point if all the Buschwackers stopped racing there would only be a handful of teams racing.

I disagree. The big teams would just hire new drivers.

[DEI8151]

the past few years or so people have been talking about this buschwhacking crap whens it been going on since the busch series started. also brian france said a few weeks back at the race in Montreal that the busch series will continue to be an open series as its always been.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If the prize money is there, teams will be involved. If it is on the same weekend as a Cup weekend, then you have to know that Cup teams will run their Busch teams with their protoges more often if Buschwacking was outlawed...

[jeffconn]

i don't have a problem with the Cup drivers racing lower series, but they should have to enter the race on speed. NO provisionals for any driver in the Cup top 35. If they can't make it on speed, tough luck. If qualifying is rained out, then the Cup regulars should be at the bottom of the list, unless they are past series champs. The provisionals should be for Busch regular drivers ONLY.

i also believe that the Busch series does not need to race so many doubleheader weekends with Cup races. Every Cup track should be limited to one Busch/Cup weekend a year. Put the trucks, modifieds or grand national cars on a doubleheader instead, and move the 2nd Busch race on those tracks to a Cupless weekend. This move would lessen the number of Cup drivers, but wouldn't outright stop them if they wanted to do the travelling. From a business standpoint, most tracks would make a good bit of change with a 3rd NASCAR weekend in a year.

[RaceFanStan]

....................
I disagree. The big teams would just hire new drivers.
Actually many of the large teams would NOT hire new drivers if Buschwacking was outlawed.
Several of the larger teams are using the Busch Series to give their Cup drivers seat-time.
If Buschwacking was outlawed many big Nextel Cup teams would fold-up their Busch teams.

Not only would the fans lose because of it, the Busch Series itself would struggle .....
you can also forget the Busch Series having full fields if Buschwacking is outlawed ! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[Sparky1329]

Stan, I wont disagree entirely, but at some point, the big stars coming into Busch have also made it so tough for the smaller teams to compete. The days of Earnhardt showing up and running his own team for Busch, or maybe Mark Martin driving for Roush were the thin edge of the wedge. Now everyone is doing it, and they are bringing some big money, big time Cup owners in with them. They drove out the smaller teams because they couldn't compete. Yet, it aint Cup, so what does it all mean? You don't see F1 teams running an old car in GP2 or any other big series overpowering their ladder series.

Some sort of system should be set up so the big guys can compete, but there is a Busch only class of guys.

Also, I think NASCAR wont get the sponsorship money they want from this deal. Everyone wants to be part of the Cup series....being second banana doesn't work for CEO's signing 30 million dollar checks for sponsorships.

The small teams were unable to compete because of the lack of resources the Cup affiliated teams have. Busch purses are notoriously paltry but that's what makes the races affordable to fans. NASCAR refused to even meet with independent owners to discuss finding some financial channels that could be developed within the series to help support the midlevel to lower level teams. Those teams that provided the Busch-only class of guys have now folded their tents. There was a point at which NASCAR could've saved the series as a true feeder series but it chose not to.

[Nick Brad]

I guess the problem now is that it's become too expensive for an independant team to reach out for, cheaper to go race ARCA and know you're on a more even footing, the grids may well struggle at some rounds if Cup teams and drivers weren't allowed to race, the majority of teams have development drivers though coming up and I think they'd be more inclined to run them for a season or two in Busch if they couldn't run their NNC guys.
The "Buschwhacking" is what has created the potential problem in the first place though IMO, the independant teams would still be lining up if they had more chance to make the show.

[Jonesi]

If the prize money is there, teams will be involved. If it is on the same weekend as a Cup weekend, then you have to know that Cup teams will run their Busch teams with their protoges more often if Buschwacking was outlawed...

Prize money is good but not great, it generally runs about 25% of Cup and at $1-2.5 million a race beats CC, IRL (except I500), ALMS, GrandAm & NHRA. If it was still a SE regional series it would be profitable for mid size teams, but the schedule has gotten out of control, starting out even worse than Cup. Daytona, California, Mexico City, Las Vegas, Atlanta, etc and I haven't gotten to a week off yet. That's Major League logistics & expenses. Without a Cup driver "Name" there's few sponsors that will put up money to pay for it all.

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

I heard a few weeks back (cant remember where now) that nascar want to change the Busch series so that the package is completly different, although with the "Busch" series getting a COT in 09 how will they do that?. If you really want to stop the big boys from playing make the cars so far off the page that it aint worth their while competing.

I used to really like see a different set of faces race on a Saturday, now its turned into Nextel Lite i couldnt give a stuff.

[Alexamateo]

Prize money is good but not great, it generally runs about 25% of Cup and at $1-2.5 million a race beats CC, IRL (except I500), ALMS, GrandAm & NHRA. If it was still a SE regional series it would be profitable for mid size teams, but the schedule has gotten out of control, starting out even worse than Cup. Daytona, California, Mexico City, Las Vegas, Atlanta, etc and I haven't gotten to a week off yet. That's Major League logistics & expenses. Without a Cup driver "Name" there's few sponsors that will put up money to pay for it all.

The way I see it, NASCAR wants it to be Nextel Cup Lite. It's a way to go to these other markets like Mexico, like Montreal, and not mess up the main Cup schedule.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Cup "lite" is the way this series will be, but I cant really see why they want to do that. They are killing off the small independent teams who might want to grow into maybe Cup 5 years down the road, and yet they have a much worse travel sched. What is more, the purses are a quarter of the Cup series, and you cant win if you don't pretty much have a Cup Driver and team to run in Busch. No....this is a bad business model and it sort of evolved into this because NASCAR wanted a few stars to guarntee they would race to keep some names in the series.

Busch is smart to get out of this deal now, and now the chickens are coming home to roost, as NASCAR isn't getting the money they think the series deserves...

[CCFanatic]

I look at it be car counts and competition. If you remove the Cup teams as well, you would reduce car counts, or comptitive car counts to well under 30 cars. I think that is the reason most people attend Busch series races. To see the big name guys at a cheaper cost and a bigger chance of them winning.

[tstran17_88]

The bottom line is that for the affordable price of a Busch Series race ticket,
a NASCAR fan gets to see several Cup drivers compete against each other,
now that is getting a big bang for your buck IMO ! :D
Except if you watch a Busch race in Milwaukee or Daytona.

For decent seats at Milwaukee, your paying more for that ticket than Michigan and Bristol for their Busch races...and seeing far fewer Cup drivers. Not that I have a problem seeing Busch drivers in a Busch race.

For Daytona 500 week, the Nextel, Petty and Earnhardt Towers for the Busch race are more than I've ever paid for a Cup ticket to any other track. And the last time I was there was in 2001.

[tstran17_88]

I disagree. The big teams would just hire new drivers.The amount and particular race that a lot of the Cup drivers run is dictated by the sponsor. He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Perfect example is the Milwaukee race.

Also, Kenseth wasn't supposed to run the Busch race at Watkins Glen, but when AFLAC came on board...they wanted Kenseth for a race and that was the only companion race available the rest of the year for Matt.

[call_me_andrew]

Remember when Greg Biffle and Kurt Busch drove in the truck series for Roush years before they moved to cup? How about Dale Earnhardt Jr. driving in the Busch Series for DEI before starting in cup?

Buschwacking was nice when it was just at the companion events, but now almost every race is a companion event. The Busch Series shouldn't be the Saturday race before the NEXTEL Cup race. It should be the series that goes to small market tracks and presents a cheaper, yet respectable alternative to NEXTEL Cup.

[RaceFanStan]

....... It should be the series that goes to small market tracks and presents a cheaper,
yet respectable alternative to NEXTEL Cup.
The Busch Series has went past the "small market tracks" ...
very few tracks remain on the schedule that Cup doesn't also go there ...
the Busch Series IS cheaper than Cup to a sponsor & usually Busch tickets are reasonable at most tracks ...
the Busch Series is still a proving ground for up & coming drivers but now the competion level is very high ...
that is good IMO = to be the best, you have to beat the best. :D

[ms0362]

Nascar isn't about to pull the big names out of a Busch race. Attendance would drop like a rock and TV ratings would take a deeper dive than they are now.

[DEI8151]

I heard a few weeks back (cant remember where now) that nascar want to change the Busch series so that the package is completly different, although with the "Busch" series getting a COT in 09 how will they do that?. If you really want to stop the big boys from playing make the cars so far off the page that it aint worth their while competing.

I used to really like see a different set of faces race on a Saturday, now its turned into Nextel Lite i couldnt give a stuff.

France said in Montreal that the Busch series will continue to be an open series to anyone who wants to race it and yea with the cot comin to busch in 09 the cup guys will be running as they always have been since the series started

[call_me_andrew]

that is good IMO = to be the best, you have to beat the best. :D

The purpose of a feeder series is to find the best young talent in relation to other young talent. The cup race finds out who the best is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The problem is that Busch racing is basically just a watered down field of Cup drivers basically driving the same cars. It will work at non Cup venues like Montreal, but the number of crossover Cup guys will dwindle....

Rock..meet hard place, Hard place, meet rock....

[tstran17_88]

The purpose of a feeder series is to find the best young talent in relation to other young talent. The cup race finds out who the best is.A lot of the teams have been plucking younger and younger drivers from ARCA, Hooter's Pro Cup, ASA and the local tracks. Those have become the feeder series. Busch & the CTS are more of a proving ground now to see if you can handle tough competition against top name Cup drivers.

[RaikkonenRules]

The bottom line is that for the affordable price of a Busch Series race ticket,
a NASCAR fan gets to see several Cup drivers compete against each other,
now that is getting a big bang for your buck IMO ! :D


Stop "Busch-wacking" ?
I don't see any good reason why to do that ...
Cup drivers in Busch races have increased sponsor participation ...
the Cup teams involved have upped the performance level of the Busch Series ...
the Cup drivers also provide a measuring stick for the Busch Series driver. :D

Cup drivers in Busch are ruining it for the young guns in Busch. As for sponso influence surely a young up and comer can attract some good sponsors for teams.

Also not everyone just wants to see the Cup guys. Most people want to see youngters battle it out in Busch in an attempt to make it to Cup. That's why most people come to see Busch races.

On the Hotlap.com forum Buschwackers are widely considered as an unnessary evil.

[RaceFanStan]

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/sign/no.gif

[Nick Brad]

The purpose of a feeder series is to find the best young talent in relation to other young talent. The cup race finds out who the best is.

Exactly how I view it. :D

[RaikkonenRules]

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/sign/no.gif

I think anyone who thinks the fans only care about the big names must be very shallow people.

Come on people like Brad Keselowski and Brad Coleman get much more attention on the Hotlap forum than any of the Cup regs.