Ferrari won't name first driver .. BUT ..

[jas123f1]

When speaking after the Turkish Grand Prix Jean Todt said: "At this moment it would be inappropriate for our drivers, who are doing such a great job, to give one or the other an advantage. There is just one point difference between the duo after twelve races.
"At the moment there is not any plan to build any kind of strategy around one of our drivers."

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/08/27/ferrari-won-t-name-first-driver/

BUT - honestly – during the Turkey race the team really was giving Massa an advantage – giving him an assured strategy to the win – which made that it was impossible for Kimi to fight – it would been more fair if Kimi went in to the first pitstop after Massa and Massa to the second after Kimi (or opposite). As they did now they were giving the win to Massa - there is no doubts about that. Both drivers were also told to NOT fight against their team mate and risk anything. So that’s it.. Kimi hadn’t in reality any chance to win ..

Of cause - the team know that – and maybe it was the reason why Todd was saying after the race that there is no first driver – he must do that because many are thinking after the race that Massas win was a result of the team strategy. He wanted contradict that saying that there is not any first drive?

Personally I’m quite sure that Kimi had won in Turkey if the team had been fairer against him. He was “terribly fast” ..

It looks for me that Ferrari has as the first cool to win construction title and therefore drivers are not allowed to fight against each other - if it is risking the “team cool”.

What a pity ..
Especially when it looks that we have only two teams in F1 this year, Ferrari and McLaren. The race was really boring.. Massa driving first with Kimi as a perfect “backup” between him and Hamilton and the other teams as shadows somewhere behind them.

If it’s forbidden also for drivers in the teams to fight against their team mates – then there is not that much left – really. And it looks not better than McLaren already has the first driver (LH) and the bubble WC Alonso has a role as a car developer and reserve - in case that Hamilton will miss his change to be the Champion for this season..

I’m a Kimi fan in first hand and a Ferrari fan after that, I admit that – but I wrote this in firt hand because I’m a afraid that all this tactic and strategy will at last kill the sport. There are too many stupid rules which make it too difficult for the teams to be able to compete and now when there are only two teams left – it’s also forbidden for them to fight against their team mate … what’s left??

:s mash:
:s nore:

[jens]

I have noticed that whoever finishes ahead - FM or KR - is "accused" for being favoured by the team. :p :

[janneppi]

Kimi's fate was sealed when he didn't qualify on pole, which he had plenty of chances, he had the lighter car didn't he?
Ferrari needs the points to win WCC, if they get a 1-2, it's all the same which is the first car. That limits the aggression the second is allowed to push the guy ahead.

[jas123f1]

I have noticed that whoever finishes ahead - FM or KR - is "accused" for being favoured by the team. :p :

Maybe you are right - but it doesn't make things much better.. it start to be too boring.. the main reason is probably that there is too many rules.. :)

[jas123f1]

Kimi's fate was sealed when he didn't qualify on pole, which he had plenty of chances, he had the lighter car didn't he?
Ferrari needs the points to win WCC, if they get a 1-2, it's all the same which is the first car. That limits the aggression the second is allowed to push the guy ahead.

No I don't think Kimi had a lighter car - i think the cars were with on a similar strategy and that gave the team to make their decision . and team decided to give the win to Massa - however this time. I think Kimi knew which strategy Massa had (and vice versa) and was thinking that Massa goes in first on first pitstop and he do it on the second. But the team decided other way – Kimi was clearly a bit disappointed afterwards – because he didn’t get that chance. It’s newer fun to loose like that … you are not allowed to fight .. not funny..

But the most serious thing is – that if results too often will depend on the team strategy and tactic it will kill the sport .. today there are two teams left … and it seams (however to me) that McLaren has their first driver (LH) and Ferrari are only looking for constructors title.. :)

[Ranger]

Seems to me that all 4 want to win the title and are going at it open slather. For various reasons, teams arent stopping them doing so.

[jens]

No I don't think Kimi had a lighter car - i think the cars were with on a similar strategy and that gave the team to make their decision . and team decided to give the win to Massa - however this time. I think Kimi knew which strategy Massa had (and vice versa) and was thinking that Massa goes in first on first pitstop and he do it on the second. But the team decided other way – Kimi was clearly a bit disappointed afterwards – because he didn’t get that chance.

Umm, I don't remember, so tell, what was your opinion after the French Grand Prix? Did you think then that KR was favoured? :p :

[jas123f1]

Umm, I don't remember, so tell, what was your opinion after the French Grand Prix? Did you think then that KR was favoured? :p :

Now - I didn't think that kimi was favoured - and I still has the same opinion.

But my opinion is that this time Massa was clearly favoured - but I'm not either saying that he is favoured every time he is winning. He is a good driver especially when everything are going in his way..

When looking for the other teams - I think there are a big risk people that people start to forget their names.. that boring it is going to be to day.. unfortunately.. :)

[Valve Bounce]

No I don't think Kimi had a lighter car - i think the cars were with on a similar strategy and that gave the team to make their decision . and team decided to give the win to Massa - however this time. I think Kimi knew which strategy Massa had (and vice versa) and was thinking that Massa goes in first on first pitstop and he do it on the second. But the team decided other way – Kimi was clearly a bit disappointed afterwards – because he didn’t get that chance. It’s newer fun to loose like that … you are not allowed to fight .. not funny..

But the most serious thing is – that if results too often will depend on the team strategy and tactic it will kill the sport .. today there are two teams left … and it seams (however to me) that McLaren has their first driver (LH) and Ferrari are only looking for constructors title.. :)

Kimi made a mistake on his hot 'ap in Q3 and so Massa got pole and Kimi only got third. Kimi was lighter by 1 lap's worth of fuel, and he should have got pole. The reason he came into the pits first was because he had 1 lap of fuel less than Massa.

In these races, one car must have at least 1 lap of fuel less than the other - otherwise they will both have to make their first pit stop at the same time.

I hope this explains it.

[jas123f1]

Kimi made a mistake on his hot 'ap in Q3 and so Massa got pole and Kimi only got third. Kimi was lighter by 1 lap's worth of fuel, and he should have got pole. The reason he came into the pits first was because he had 1 lap of fuel less than Massa.

In these races, one car must have at least 1 lap of fuel less than the other - otherwise they will both have to make their first pit stop at the same time.

I hope this explains it.

Sure Kimi made a little mistake on his hot lap in Q3 and was 3rd and Massa didn't any mistake and was on the pole. But I don't think he was lighter I think they was on same fuel.. and I think it's shame if races are over after Q3 :) especially if it’s depending on the team strategy.. as it did this time ..

Kimi was very fast in Turkey

Fastest laps.
Raikkonen...1,27.295 +0
Massa........1,27.922 +0,627
Hamilton.....1,27.963 +0,668
Alonso........1,28.070 +0,775
Heidfeld......1,28.319 +1,024
Rosberg......1,28.536 +1,241
Kovalainen...1.28.603 +1,308
Fisichella.....1,28.793 +1,498
Kubica........1,28.918 +1,623
Coulthard....1,29.068 +1,774

:)

[jens]

Take a look at the absolute Top10 laptimes.

Rank Driver Time Lap #
1 RAI 1:27.295 57
2 MAS 1:27.922 18
3 RAI 1:27.941 15
4 MAS 1:27.958 41
5 HAM 1:27.963 17
6 HAM 1:27.968 19
7 MAS 1:27.971 17
8 RAI 1:27.987 17
9 ALO 1:28.070 39
10 MAS 1:28.081 40

Kimi has only 3 laps and Felipe 4 laps in that Top10! As you can see, besides that 57th lap all the other fliers were made before first or second stop, when the car was light and both Ferraris were running on soft tyres.

On the last stint, however, Ferraris were running on hards, which presumably lasted better and enabled Kimi to go extra-quick at the end of the race in a light car. At that point of the race Felipe had the race in the bag and didn't bother to reply, considering that no points are given for the FL. All in all can't see evidence that Kimi was faster and should have deserved the win more than Felipe. I think they were even - just like in France. Just as FM was not quite dominant to create a big margin, then it creates an illusion that KR would have dominated the race while driving in front. For most of the time, as I remember, the Finn was 2-4 seconds behind the Brazilian and failed to put him under pressure except one moment in mid-race, where FM missed the braking point. But in a few laps he managed to build up 2-4 second advantage again.

[ioan]

No I don't think Kimi had a lighter car - i think the cars were with on a similar strategy and that gave the team to make their decision .

They never put exactly the same fuel quantity in the cars, because they know that they can't service 2 cars in the same time.
Most of the time they get 1 lap more or less fuel than their team mate, unless they feel that a more different strategy would be better for them.


and team decided to give the win to Massa - however this time. I think Kimi knew which strategy Massa had (and vice versa) and was thinking that Massa goes in first on first pitstop and he do it on the second. But the team decided other way – Kimi was clearly a bit disappointed afterwards – because he didn’t get that chance. It’s newer fun to loose like that … you are not allowed to fight .. not funny..

Why would have the team decided to give the win to Felipe over Kimi?!
If Kimi won the race than he would have been 1 point closer than Felipe to Hamilton in the WDC fight and would have more chances to win the Championship in the end.

Ferrari knows that there is nothing to chose between them two so, unlike McLaren, they decided to let them fight it out on the track and bring home as many points as possible for the Constructors Championship. This way the drivers know they are equal and Ferrari won't get McLaren like internal troubles. ;)

[jas123f1]

Kimi has only 3 laps and Felipe 4 laps in that Top10! As you can see, besides that 57th lap all the other fliers were made before first or second stop, when the car was light and both Ferraris were running on soft tyres.

On the last stint, however, Ferraris were running on hards, which presumably lasted better and enabled Kimi to go extra-quick at the end of the race in a light car. At that point of the race Felipe had the race in the bag and didn't bother to reply, considering that no points are given for the FL. All in all can't see evidence that Kimi was faster and should have deserved the win more than Felipe. I think they were even - just like in France. Just as FM was not quite dominant to create a big margin, then it creates an illusion that KR would have dominated the race while driving in front. For most of the time, as I remember, the Finn was 2-4 seconds behind the Brazilian and failed to put him under pressure except one moment in mid-race, where FM missed the braking point. But in a few laps he managed to build up 2-4 second advantage again.

Sure Massa had the race in the bag already after the first lap – if they did know the team strategy.

Kimi had no chance to make something because he was behind Massa during the whole race and the only possibility to go past was to get a free track and make some fast laps. But he didn’t get any, that’s the problem. He was very close to Massa before both pitstops – (I’m sure he was hoping that Massa should go in first at least one of the pitstops). Kimi made his 1:27.941 lap 15 (before the first pitstop when he minimized the gap between him and Massa to only 0,7 sec) and the same happened when it was time to the second pitstop. But there wasn’t any possibility for him to be faster because he was behind Massa.

The fastest lap he made was with the harder compound and low fuel, but according to Kimi there was actually no noticeable difference between the softer and harder tyres. Both tyres were working very well - everything was working very well for him – except the strategy and that was something the team decided.

That he made the fastest lap on lap 57 was probably some kind of protest where he wanted to show that he was that quick and the same when he was driving very close to Massa before both pitstops. I’m sure Kimi had resources to win if Massa did make one of the pitstops before him – but that is only my opinion :) …

[ioan]

I’m sure Kimi had resources to win if Massa did make one of the pitstops before him – but that is only my opinion :) …

If you would have said that you think that Kimi might have won if ... than I would have said OK, but saying that you are sure about it, it's a bit rich.

[jas123f1]

Ferrari knows that there is nothing to chose between them two so, unlike McLaren, they decided to let them fight it out on the track and bring home as many points as possible for the Constructors Championship. This way the drivers know they are equal and Ferrari won't get McLaren like internal troubles. ;)

Sorry ioan, but I don't have exactly same opinion about it. :)

- It’s not sure that kimi had won if Massa went to one of the pitstops first - I know that. But it was pretty sure that he hadn’t any chance to win if he had to go in to pit first both stops. It’s of course possible that he did know that already before the start, but I don’t think he did .. :)

[jas123f1]

If you would have said that you think that Kimi might have won if ... than I would have said OK, but saying that you are sure about it, it's a bit rich.

Ok it's my English -
I say it now - Kimi might have won if ... I'm sure he might have won :D

[kalasend]

I think the topic argument is biased. Sure the team(Ferrari) should help a driver to make up as many positions as possible, regardless of whether he made a mistake. But the team should also help a driver to keep his qualified position for as long as possible.

Massa did a good job at running at the front. It is Kimi's mission to catch Massa. The Ferrari may be able to alter Kimi's fuel strategy(NOTE: this is only a hypothesis) to gain advantage. But on the other hand, would this then be fair to Massa? Because the team deliberately do something to hurts its driver's race.

So I conclude that Ferrari is just being equal.

PS: If Massa is not a Ferrari driver, what jas123f1 said about pit strategy may be right. But Massa IS a Ferrari driver and the team cannot, and should not, deliberately do something to hurt his race. Especially it was Kimi who made a mistake that lost himself the pole.

[V12]

Seems to me that all 4 want to win the title and are going at it open slather. For various reasons, teams arent stopping them doing so.

Which is all for the better I say! :cool:

[jas123f1]

I think the topic argument is biased. Sure the team(Ferrari) should help a driver to make up as many positions as possible, regardless of whether he made a mistake. But the team should also help a driver to keep his qualified position for as long as possible.

Massa did a good job at running at the front. It is Kimi's mission to catch Massa. The Ferrari may be able to alter Kimi's fuel strategy(NOTE: this is only a hypothesis) to gain advantage. But on the other hand, would this then be fair to Massa? Because the team deliberately do something to hurts its driver's race.

So I conclude that Ferrari is just being equal.

PS: If Massa is not a Ferrari driver, what jas123f1 said about pit strategy may be right. But Massa IS a Ferrari driver and the team cannot, and should not, deliberately do something to hurt his race. Especially it was Kimi who made a mistake that lost himself the pole.

The fact is that Kimi was not allowed to fight against Massa.
If the team would had said - fight guys may the best of you win… but they are worrying about their Constructors Championship points and make their decision.. and this case the right decision should be that both drivers goes in first in to one pitstop. Massa can make the choice because of the pole – take the first stop or the second – doesn’t matter .. it should be fair against both drivers and the team - and also to us spectators .. :)

[jens]

I think Ferrari is right to concentrate more on WCC title rather than WDC. As McLaren's points total has been reduced by 15, then it's simply easier to catch it. Ferrari in the WCC is closer to the leader than either of their drivers in the WDC standings.

[Dzeidzei]

First of all, I dont think Kimi has anything to complain, he lost the race in quali. But your logic needs a bit tuning.


Take a look at the absolute Top10 laptimes.

Kimi has only 3 laps and Felipe 4 laps in that Top10! As you can see, besides that 57th lap all the other fliers were made before first or second stop, when the car was light and both Ferraris were running on soft tyres.

At that point of the race Felipe had the race in the bag and didn't bother to reply, considering that no points are given for the FL.

For most of the time, as I remember, the Finn was 2-4 seconds behind the Brazilian and failed to put him under pressure except one moment in mid-race, where FM missed the braking point. But in a few laps he managed to build up 2-4 second advantage again.

Besides that extremely quick lap those "absolute times" are very equal. If youre driving behind someone, you cannot go faster. A tenth quicker here, a tenth slower there, but thats it.

Felipe didnt bother to reply? There is no evidence of that. The only evidence we have is that Kimi did a lap which no one could match. DId he do that just to show how quick he could have been? Who knows, its only speculation.

And for the 2-4 second interval... You may have heard this, but in hot conditions (like last Sunday) its not very wise to drive at the tail of another car for too long. You need some air to cool your engine down. Thats a more probable reason for the 2-4 seconds in between them.

Anyway, Kimi did loose the race in Q3. End of discussion.

[ioan]

Felipe didnt bother to reply? There is no evidence of that. The only evidence we have is that Kimi did a lap which no one could match.

Kimi did that fastest lap in lap 57 out of 58, when should Felipe do a faster lap and why?
In the last lap of the race when he still had 3 seconds advantage over Kimi? And losing the race for a battle of egos?!
What if Kimi made a mistake during that fastest lap and lost everything? Would you still be here defending his actions? I doubt it.

Felipe is a very level headed person, he does measure the risks and the rewards and acts accordingly, that's why he is where he is at the moment.

[jso1985]

If they wanted to favour a driver then Todt is quite stupid...

Kimi had more points than Massa... so I don't see any team favours to Felipe there, he won straight and fair IMO

[tinchote]

If they wanted to favour a driver then Todt is quite stupid...

Kimi had more points than Massa... so I don't see any team favours to Felipe there, he won straight and fair IMO


That's the argument I mentioned in the other thread: KR is Ferrari's highest paid driver, and before the race he was ahead of FM in the WDC. It requires a lot of imagination to find reasons for Ferrari to want him to lose points.

[Dzeidzei]

Kimi did that fastest lap in lap 57 out of 58, when should Felipe do a faster lap and why?
In the last lap of the race when he still had 3 seconds advantage over Kimi? And losing the race for a battle of egos?!
What if Kimi made a mistake during that fastest lap and lost everything? Would you still be here defending his actions? I doubt it.

Felipe is a very level headed person, he does measure the risks and the rewards and acts accordingly, that's why he is where he is at the moment.

Just to make sure that you understand: I didnt defend Kimi´s action. I have no idea why he chose to do one quick lap at the dying stages of the race, especially when he was clearly not allowed to race Felipe. A boost for his ego? Probably and not a very wise thing to do. The fact still remains that this very lap was out of reach for anyone else. Could Felipe have matched that if he wanted to? We will never know. And its of no importance anyway.

And about your praise for Felipe´s driving... yes he seems to make some good decisions. I do think that people in general (not his fans) think of Felipe as a fast driver, who can easilly win from pole. We still havent seen if he´s able to beat a quicker car or come from behind and win at all.

But absolutely, when he´s on pole, gets a clean start, has a good strategy and his teammate is in 2nd place, he has everything under control.

Even my grandma would have.

[leopard]

If everything is right in order he can finish up to the 6th from 16th, we can't simply ignore it. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Ferrari knows that there is nothing to chose between them two so, unlike McLaren, they decided to let them fight it out on the track and bring home as many points as possible for the Constructors Championship.
It's interesting that after so many years of success by favouring one driver Ferrari appear to have adopted McLaren's policy of equal treatment for both drivers.

Some here have argued that having a clear #1 is the way a winning team should be run, and yet we have two teams, and four drivers, contesting this years' championship.

The end result? The best, most closely fought, competitive and eventful championship we've had for years :up: :s mokin:

[jas123f1]

Kimi did that fastest lap in lap 57 out of 58, when should Felipe do a faster lap and why?
In the last lap of the race when he still had 3 seconds advantage over Kimi? And losing the race for a battle of egos?!
What if Kimi made a mistake during that fastest lap and lost everything? Would you still be here defending his actions? I doubt it.

Felipe is a very level headed person, he does measure the risks and the rewards and acts accordingly, that's why he is where he is at the moment.

I think the lap was some kind of protest, not against Massa but the team.
Kimi had a feeling that the team didn’t want him to win the race because he wasn’t allowed to fight against him on the track and the team tog in him first to both pitstops. I heard also that before he made his lap, he asked the team who had the fastest lap and when they told him it was Massa – perhaps he didn’t like to accept also that because Massa had been preventing his driving during whole race. That’s the reason – I think. :) But I don’t think he was risking anything too much. :)

[Flat.tyres]

Kimi made a mistake in Q3 which cost him pole and therefore the race.

Kimi decided to make a statement at the end of the GP as to the pace he could run at which was as little irrelevant as they were probably at Map5 anyway and cruising. Still, it made Kimi feel better and just goes to show what a stonker of a car the Ferrari is when nobody, not even the McLaren, can live at that pace. Im not too sure Todt is happy about showing what the car is capable of. Ferrari controlled the race beautifully, Massa did what was needed as he know he had the fuel strategy (unlike earlier in the year when it was reversed) and it was all in the bag.

All it was was a blindingly quick lap on old tyres showing just how quick Ferrari can run if necessary.

[Garry Walker]

Kimi lost the race in the qualy already, so if he wants to be the nr.1 driver, maybe he should adopt the policy of going faster than FM.

[Garry Walker]

Kimi made a mistake in Q3 which cost him pole and therefore the race.

Kimi decided to make a statement at the end of the GP as to the pace he could run at which was as little irrelevant as they were probably at Map5 anyway and cruising. Still, it made Kimi feel better and just goes to show what a stonker of a car the Ferrari is when nobody, not even the McLaren, can live at that pace. Im not too sure Todt is happy about showing what the car is capable of. Ferrari controlled the race beautifully, Massa did what was needed as he know he had the fuel strategy (unlike earlier in the year when it was reversed) and it was all in the bag.

All it was was a blindingly quick lap on old tyres showing just how quick Ferrari can run if necessary.

Actually, McLaren was as quick as Ferrari at Turkey. Do not place too much importance on the fast lap, it was done when the track was at its best and with a car that had been saving its tyres for the whole stint. If you compare the overall pace of the 2 cars, then Mclaren was right there on Ferraris pace and Lewis could have beaten Kimi at the 2nd pitstop had his tyre not burst.

[ioan]

Even my grandma would have.

I was almost agreeing with you until I read this.
What kind of misfortune prevented your grandma from becoming the most successful women in F1?! :rolleyes:

[jas123f1]

Actually, McLaren was as quick as Ferrari at Turkey. Do not place too much importance on the fast lap, it was done when the track was at its best and with a car that had been saving its tyres for the whole stint. If you compare the overall pace of the 2 cars, then Mclaren was right there on Ferraris pace and Lewis could have beaten Kimi at the 2nd pitstop had his tyre not burst.

If it's true that Hamilton could have beaten any - then he maybe could have beaten Massa as well because when Kimi went to his second pitstop he was very close to Massa and Massa made only one lap more..

But i don't think it was possible to beat any Ferrari driver this time. :) Hamilton was more that 7 sec behind them and loosing time when he got his puncture.. :)

[Flat.tyres]

Actually, McLaren was as quick as Ferrari at Turkey. Do not place too much importance on the fast lap, it was done when the track was at its best and with a car that had been saving its tyres for the whole stint. If you compare the overall pace of the 2 cars, then Mclaren was right there on Ferraris pace and Lewis could have beaten Kimi at the 2nd pitstop had his tyre not burst.

I know you hate me using facts to back up statements and consider it irrelevant when compared to opinions but please indulge me a moment.

Ferrari qualified 1 and 3 on the grid. It is very likely they would have qualified 1 and 2 if Kimi hadn't of made a driver error.

This would suggest that if all things between the drivers are equal, that the Ferrari was the faster car.

The 2 Ferrari's finished with the 2 fastest laps, one of which was 7/10's of a second faster than the McLarens. OK, we know it was just to show how fast the car was but that is more than Alonso has allegedly brought to McLaren this year :D

Ferrari walked this race and although I hold some loyal hope that lewis could have used his skill to sandwich Kimi in a Massa / Lewis Sandwich and snatch 2nd, it is pure conjecture.

So, how can you claim that McLaren was as quick as Ferrari which was the class of the field all weekend?

[ioan]

I would just point out that Alonso posted the fastest lap of the week end in Q2.

[Flat.tyres]

I would just point out that Alonso posted the fastest lap of the week end in Q2.

Do you really want an answer to such an irrelevant post?

[ioan]

Do you really want an answer to such an irrelevant post?

:?:

[Flat.tyres]

:?:

Why are you confused?

You pointed out that a car in full qual mode that just needs to get into the top 10 has some relevance on a car that is at optimum in the race with warn tyres and race fuel and wonder why I claim it is irrelevant.

What about if they took loads of wing off and took it down a Drag Strip. We can see what really is the best F1 car :rolleyes:

[Juppe]

Do you really want an answer to such an irrelevant post?

He has got a point you know?


The difference between Lewis and Felipe was almost nonexistent in the third quali, plus Lewis had 1 more lap worth of fuel.

The absolute speed of the two cars seemed to be very close - so close you could actually say they were equally fast.

But it seems, that in the long run with race trim, that Ferrari is a little bit better than McLaren.

If Ferrari is going to push for the titles they still need a little bit more especially in the qualifying to be comfortably quicker than McLaren - and that is basicly the only way they can snatch the titles.

[Flat.tyres]

He has got a point you know?


The difference between Lewis and Felipe was almost nonexistent in the third quali, plus Lewis had 1 more lap worth of fuel.

The absolute speed of the two cars seemed to be very close - so close you could actually say they were equally fast.

But it seems, that in the long run with race trim, that Ferrari is a little bit better than McLaren.

If Ferrari is going to push for the titles they still need a little bit more especially in the qualifying to be comfortably quicker than McLaren - and that is basicly the only way they can snatch the titles.

I would say that Massa is not as quick as Lewis and the reason why Massa and Lewis were so close may be down to this. Looking at the Race, as you say, the Ferrari was much the better car. It comfortably stayed ahead of Lewis and left Alonso who drove the wheels off once he got past the BMW's to peg the gap to Lewis.

This was a strong track for Ferrari and they were easily the best car out there in my opinion and the only reason it wasn't Kimi 1 and Massa 2 is that Kimi cocked up.

Ferrari went as fast as they needed to while McLaren were on the limit. Kimi proved this by blowing the fastest lap in a non competitive stage of the race.

[Dzeidzei]

I was almost agreeing with you until I read this.
What kind of misfortune prevented your grandma from becoming the most successful women in F1?! :rolleyes:

I think you got the point. And even the joke.

[Garry Walker]

It's interesting that after so many years of success by favouring one driver Ferrari appear to have adopted McLaren's policy of equal treatment for both drivers.
You mean the "equal" policy McLaren had from 90-92 and again from 1997 to 2002?

[Garry Walker]

I know you hate me using facts to back up statements Do not worry your pretty little head, I love facts as I am going to show you in a minute.


please indulge me a moment.Gladly, it is good when they come back for more after having been knocked out and hearing the 10-count already, is`nt it :D



Ferrari qualified 1 and 3 on the grid. It is very likely they would have qualified 1 and 2 if Kimi hadn't of made a driver error.
No, Kimi wasnt going to get p2, he was already over 2 tenths behind Massa best lap after S2 and his mistake cost him little. He was just lacking pace compared to FM in Q3, especially on the last lap, which makes me think that FM really pulled out a special one there.



This would suggest that if all things between the drivers are equal, that the Ferrari was the faster car.No, see actually LH had one more lap fuel than FM had in qualifying. One lap at Turkey was measured to be worth at around 1 tenth. So based on those times, LH was actually faster in qualifying. By a very small amount. This is a fact.
You also have to remember that in Q2, where they usually go all out, Alonso did the fastest time of the weekend.


The 2 Ferrari's finished with the 2 fastest laps, one of which was 7/10's of a second faster than the McLarens.
:rotflmao:
Are you seriously trying that argument?
You need to look into it a bit, but I will gladly provide some much needed information.
Firstly, the gap between LHs best time and KRs best time was 0,668 seconds.
KR did his fastest lap when the track was at its best, LH and FM did their fastest laps when the track had much less rubber on it, when the track was slower basically. You see the importance of that, yes? Comprehende?
KR did his fast lap with tyres that hadnt been pressed during the stint at all, as he was taking it easy in the last stint and nursing the equipment, whereas FM and LH did their fastest laps in the first stint with tyres that had been at 100% throughout the stint. Therefore, they had on tyres that had been used more and were in a worse condition. That is very important.
KR also did his fastest lap in a shorter stint than FM and LH had done their fastest laptimes in.

All these facts, but especially the first two of them (track rubbered in and tyres saved througout a stint) made it possible for KR to make such a laptime. Afterall, during the rest of the race he didnt even seem close to be able to make such a laptime or get anywhere close to it, which suggests this lap indeed was a one-off and due to special circumstances. Saving the tyre througout a stint indeed is a special circumstance.

A true comparison, a comparison that would be right is this one - Let us compare the laptimes FM, KR and LH were able to do in the first stint, conditions equal for all! We cannot include Alonso, because in the first stint he didnt get any full laptimes done with free track.
If we go by fastest laps, then LH did his fastest lap 1'27''963 on lap 17, he pitted on lap 20. FM did his fastest lap 1'27''922 on lap 18 and pitted next lap. But what is important here is that LH actually did his fastest laptime with 2 laps more fuel (2 laps fuel is worth 2 tenths) than FM did his lap with, which would indicate that based on this McLaren at this stage was actually faster. Kimis fastest lap in the first stint was 1'27''942, done on lap 15 and he pitted on lap 18, so his lap was really done with the same amount of fuel as LH and he was 0,021 seconds faster. So he was pretty much as fast as LH. With less used tyres.

Now, you will surley ask..but why didnt LH, FA and FM do a laptime like KR did at the end. But the answer is so obvious that Captain Hastings would find it.
In the last stint, when the track was at its best and KR did his hype laptime, FM didnt have any reason to push anymore.
Neither did FA.
LH did, but he had a damaged car and was struggling to maintain even reasonable pace compared to Kovalainen.

So going by fastest laps I have shown you that Ferrari didnt really have any advantage at all, but thankfully I am smart enough to know that determining a cars speed by fastest laps only is stupid, so I will post some very important thoughts on stints.
I will compare Hamilton and Massa.
Massa in the first stint was able to open a gap of 4,1 seconds in 19 laps to LH, with LH having 1 lap more fuel which accounts for 1,9 seconds of that 4,1 seconds. So, 2,2 seconds over 19 laps makes it just over a tenth per lap advantage for Ferraris at this point.
But 2nd stint is much more interesting. From lap 21 to lap 42 Massa increased his gap over LH from 3,3 seconds to 8,3 seconds. Ferrari faster? Think again. Ron said LH had fuel for 5 more laps than the ferraris, I am guessing the 5 laps is compared to Kimi, so compared to FM he had 4 more laps worth of fuel. 4 laps worth of fuel at turkey was 4 tenths per lap! Over those 21 laps that would amount to 8,4 seconds, but in reality FM increased the gap only by 5 seconds! So LH was, taking fuel amount into account (and lets face it, in F1 that is a must-do), faster than FM by around 3,4 seconds over 21 laps. FM still had every reason to push as hard as possible, not knowing the fuel loads.
I think that if Lewis hadnt had his puncture, he could have possibly overtaken Kimi in the pitstops. FM was probably a bit too far ahead.

But overall, there really was nothing between McLaren and Ferrari this weekend.

If anyone finds these numbers too complicated to understand and waste of time or considers fuel loads as "twisting", I suggest trying to follow a sport that is easier to understand.


Ferrari walked this race
Wrong and I have made a very good analysis on why that is so. Hamiltons puncture obviously made things much easier for them. I also think McLaren made a mistake in filling up Hamilton so much for the 2nd stint.


So, how can you claim that McLaren was as quick as Ferrari which was the class of the field all weekend?
Except the Ferrari wasnt the class of the field the whole weekend.

Even if you account the practise sessions, which IMO are overall irrelevant, then a ferrari driver was fastest in the first FP, McLaren driver was fastest in the 2nd and 3rd FP. So an edge of 2:1 to McLaren.
In qualifying if anyone had the edge, it was the McLaren. They had the fastest laptime in Q2, fuel accounted in Q3 and only in Q1 was a Ferrari driver the fastest. So again, an advantage of 2:1 for McLaren.

In race, all things considered, they were about equal

[leopard]

It's interesting that after so many years of success by favouring one driver Ferrari appear to have adopted McLaren's policy of equal treatment for both drivers.

equal treatment or ambiguity? ;)

[wmcot]

I think the lap was some kind of protest, not against Massa but the team.


I don't think it was a protest at all. MS used to do the same thing when he finished off the top step of the podium (Brazil 2006, China 2005, I think are examples.) I think it's more that the driver (KR or MS) want to get something meaningful from the weekend. If the win isn't possible, then try for fastest lap. It's a bit of the ego acting up and some head games drivers use to psyche themselves up.

[Flat.tyres]

Forgive me for cherry picking but some of your post is subjective and therefore opinion and other parts are actually accurate :s hock: so I will just question the parts that need to be addressed further.


Do not worry your pretty little head, I love facts as I am going to show you in a minute.

Gladly, it is good when they come back for more after having been knocked out and hearing the 10-count already, is`nt it

Oh dear, oh dear. Keep trying darling :kiss:



No, Kimi wasnt going to get p2, he was already over 2 tenths behind Massa best lap after S2 and his mistake cost him little. He was just lacking pace compared to FM in Q3, especially on the last lap, which makes me think that FM really pulled out a special one there.Can you please post a link with sectors 1 - 2 - 3 for the 4 drivers as I don't have access to my normal DB at the moment.


No, see actually LH had one more lap fuel than FM had in qualifying. One lap at Turkey was measured to be worth at around 1 tenth. So based on those times, LH was actually faster in qualifying. By a very small amount. This is a fact.Can you also attribute your logic to Alonso then. You are right when you say that 1 lap extra does have a time penalty but I think this was just about Lewis's best qualifying run all year. It was a superb effort to get on the front of the grid and that is where the 10th was made up if you ask my opinion (seeing as we are using facts, logic and drawing conclusions. Very good Gary, you're learning)


You also have to remember that in Q2, where they usually go all out, Alonso did the fastest time of the weekend.

No, you do not do a Banzai lap normally. You put in a good banker, sometimes a competitive lap and if necessary to secure Q3, then you put in a Banzai lap where you risk all. Of course, the last 4 teams try a little harder but the only real time they are all out is Q3 when it really matters. It's very rare for a driver to lob it off under pressure in the top teams in Q2 because you dont need to. All you need to do is qualify for Q3. Same with Athletics or swimming heats.




Are you seriously trying that argument? You make a lot of good points and opinions in the rest of the text but you have to admit, the track didn't come to Kimi by 7/10's. That's a lifetime :) but your logic and opinion of why he could set the fastest lap is pretty spot on.


A true comparison, a comparison that would be right is this one - Let us compare the laptimes FM, KR and LH were able to do in the first stint, conditions equal for all! We cannot include Alonso, because in the first stint he didnt get any full laptimes done with free track.
If we go by fastest laps, then LH did his fastest lap 1'27''963 on lap 17, he pitted on lap 20. FM did his fastest lap 1'27''922 on lap 18 and pitted next lap. But what is important here is that LH actually did his fastest laptime with 2 laps more fuel (2 laps fuel is worth 2 tenths) than FM did his lap with, which would indicate that based on this McLaren at this stage was actually faster. Kimis fastest lap in the first stint was 1'27''942, done on lap 15 and he pitted on lap 18, so his lap was really done with the same amount of fuel as LH and he was 0,021 seconds faster. So he was pretty much as fast as LH. With less used tyres.Very subjective as we dont know what Ferrari were doing with regards to strategy. Lewis wasn't a threat at this stage of the race and Kimi wasn't going anywhere. By your rational, Lewis should have had his quickest lap on lap 19. I am convinced that Ferrari were running a controlled race where McLaren were all out for trying to hold onto their coat tails. Believe me, I don't want to admit this but I'm afraid that Ferrari had this one in the bag from the start.


Now, you will surley ask..but why didnt LH, FA and FM do a laptime like KR did at the end. But the answer is so obvious that Captain Hastings would find it.
In the last stint, when the track was at its best and KR did his hype laptime, FM didnt have any reason to push anymore.
Neither did FA.
LH did, but he had a damaged car and was struggling to maintain even reasonable pace compared to Kovalainen.I don't really need to quote this but I will do to say I agree 100% with you. It's obvious I know but on this point you are completely correct. :p :



I will compare Hamilton and Massa.
Massa in the first stint was able to open a gap of 4,1 seconds in 19 laps to LH, with LH having 1 lap more fuel which accounts for 1,9 seconds of that 4,1 seconds. So, 2,2 seconds over 19 laps makes it just over a tenth per lap advantage for Ferraris at this point.
But 2nd stint is much more interesting. From lap 21 to lap 42 Massa increased his gap over LH from 3,3 seconds to 8,3 seconds. Ferrari faster? Think again. Ron said LH had fuel for 5 more laps than the ferraris, I am guessing the 5 laps is compared to Kimi, so compared to FM he had 4 more laps worth of fuel. 4 laps worth of fuel at turkey was 4 tenths per lap! Over those 21 laps that would amount to 8,4 seconds, but in reality FM increased the gap only by 5 seconds! So LH was, taking fuel amount into account (and lets face it, in F1 that is a must-do), faster than FM by around 3,4 seconds over 21 laps. FM still had every reason to push as hard as possible, not knowing the fuel loads.
I think that if Lewis hadnt had his puncture, he could have possibly overtaken Kimi in the pitstops. FM was probably a bit too far ahead.This is where we disagree.

Ron is playing a game that not many people will fall for (but it seems some do ).

The difference in time between Massa and Lewis's first stop was approx 0.4 seconds or about 6km's of fuel ie. a fraction over one lap so it's likely they were trying to go 2 laps further than Massa and 3 over Kimi so after Kimi stopped, he had the opportunity to make up whatever the gap was bearing in mind the pace of pre-stop McLaren and post stop Ferrari lap times.

NBow, you are really going to have to be subjective and make a guess but I don't think 3 laps was enough. 5 laps possibly but 3 was short.


But overall, there really was nothing between McLaren and Ferrari this weekend.Not a lot but in a sport measured in '000th's of a second, there doesn't have to be much at all. The Ferrari's never looked under pressure and Kimi made a point at the end of the race about just how much they were coasting.


If anyone finds these numbers too complicated to understand and waste of time or considers fuel loads as "twisting", I suggest trying to follow a sport that is easier to understand.No, you are quite right that it all counts but I hope you don't mind me directing you back onto the straight and narrow a bit ;)


The rest of the post is subjective or irrelevant in the great scheme of things.

[Garry Walker]

Can you please post a link with sectors 1 - 2 - 3 for the 4 drivers as I don't have access to my normal DB at the moment.
I do not have the sector times at hand and I am only going by memory, but after 2 sectors on his 2nd hotlap, Kimi was barley faster than Massa had been on his first hotlap in Q3(shown on tv), but Massa improved his time by over 2 tenths still. Hamilton was also faster than KR in both sector 1 and sector 2 on their respective second hotlaps in Q3.



Can you also attribute your logic to Alonso then.
He chose the wrong tyres for the last qualy lap and didnt show his best. On his first qualy lap he was right there with LH even in front of him.


You are right when you say that 1 lap extra does have a time penalty but I think this was just about Lewis's best qualifying run all year.
I actually think the guy with the most impressive lap was Massa. Hamilton didnt look faster than Alonso, until Alonso messed up with his last lap.



It was a superb effort to get on the front of the grid and that is where the 10th was made up if you ask my opinion (seeing as we are using facts, logic and drawing conclusions. Very good Gary, you're learning)
I am the teacher here :)
I think in qualy McLaren had a little edge. This is my opinion. Alonso, if he had chosen the right tyres and done a mistake-free lap, could have gotten any position in the top 3 with his last lap, so he didnt show his all. Massa though, really did get a special lap in there and his comments after qualy show it too.



No, you do not do a Banzai lap normally. You put in a good banker, sometimes a competitive lap and if necessary to secure Q3, then you put in a Banzai lap where you risk all. Of course, the last 4 teams try a little harder but the only real time they are all out is Q3 when it really matters. It's very rare for a driver to lob it off under pressure in the top teams in Q2 because you dont need to. All you need to do is qualify for Q3. Same with Athletics or swimming heats. Yes, but they still are pretty much on the limit. For example at Ferrari the faster guy in Q2 gets to choose the strategy for Q3 that his teammate cannot adjust against (so he usually picks one lap less fuel to qualify in front, as KR did, except he wasnt expecting such a lap from KR)
Who wouldnt want that?



You make a lot of good points and opinions in the rest of the text but you have to admit, the track didn't come to Kimi by 7/10's. That's a lifetime :) That was a very important contribution though, but having saved his tyres throughout the stint was even more important and that easily account for many tenths. If such an impessive pace for KR had been the norm, then he would have been much faster when he had free track and Massa only 2,5 seconds away from him in the 2nd stint, but he couldnt close the gap then and put pressure on FM. That is why I maintain that that lap made things look unlike they were in reality.



Very subjective as we dont know what Ferrari were doing with regards to strategy. Lewis wasn't a threat at this stage of the race and Kimi wasn't going anywhere. Yes, Lewis was a threat actually. In the first stint that we are talking about now he was only 2,5 seconds away from Kimi, when KR pitted. How can you say that he wasnt a threat? At that stage Ferraris were pushing as hard as possible for sure, because they didnt know how much fuel LH still had.


By your rational, Lewis should have had his quickest lap on lap 19. Yes, but humans make errors, there could have been traffic etc.



I am convinced that Ferrari were running a controlled race where McLaren were all out for trying to hold onto their coat tails.
No, Ferraris started controlling the race only at the last stint. In the first 2 stints both KR and FM were going flat-out. KR because he needed to put pressure on FM and FM because he needed to stay in front of KR and guarantee himself against possible pitstop blunders + The threat from LH whose fuel loads they did not know


Believe me, I don't want to admit this but I'm afraid that Ferrari had this one in the bag from the start. Not at all. If McLaren had played their strategy a bit better, LH could have challenged Massa for the win.



Ron is playing a game that not many people will fall for (but it seems some do ).
How do you know that? Ted Kravitz at ITV said that Alonso was only pitted to avoid a possible SC scenario and his first pitstop had been 2 laps before LH. It is more than likely that they maintained the difference in their fuel loads.
That means that at the least LH still was scheduled to do 3 more laps at that point. That means going at least until lap 46. That is 4 laps longer than FM went and fits very well with what I said before. Even if LH only had one lap more fuel than FA and that he would have pitted at lap 45, that is still 3 laps later than FM which fuel adjusted would still make LH in the 2nd stint faster than Massa.



The difference in time between Massa and Lewis's first stop was approx 0.4 seconds or about 6km's of fuel ie. a fraction over one lap so it's likely they were trying to go 2 laps further than Massa and 3 over Kimi so after Kimi stopped, he had the opportunity to make up whatever the gap was bearing in mind the pace of pre-stop McLaren and post stop Ferrari lap times. No, the 0,4 was the whole time of the pitstop from entry to going back to track. That is not a very good comparison. You need to look at the actual time the fuel went in, but even then it is not a very good comparison because the time is measured by people with time-watches, so errors are likely.
But, if you wish to go by the data you posted, then Alonsos time at pitstop was pretty much the same as Hamiltons (1 tenth less). His first pitstop was 2 laps before LH, so they probably maintained their respective difference in fuel loads. Alonso wasnt scheduled to pit on the lap he pitted at (lap 43). So even if Alonsos pitstop had been on the next lap after that, which is likely, LH would have still gone on till lap 46 by this logic. And my theory still holds water :)



NBow, you are really going to have to be subjective and make a guess but I don't think 3 laps was enough. 5 laps possibly but 3 was short.
We will never know, but having 5 laps against Kimi which seems likely what he had, could have been enough. But it is my opinion that LH was given a bit too much fuel in the first pitstop, but it seems that McLarens really cant make the car work on longer stints with the soft tyres, so they tried to make the last stint as short as possible.



Not a lot but in a sport measured in '000th's of a second, there doesn't have to be much at all. The Ferrari's never looked under pressure and Kimi made a point at the end of the race about just how much they were coasting.Ferraris were only coasting in the last part of the race. They were going flat-out till the moment LH had his trouble.

[rohanweb]

Yes the Italians probably love to see Massa (Brazilian who was a proper sidekick for MS) winning races and possibly championship over the newcomer and Finn. Kimi Raikonen.. and the Ferrari team DOES doing the 'Right' thing, and this is might be the case that its a payback time for Massa.. Jean Todt and Montzemello knows it by heart ;)
and thats how it goes I guess.. Poor Kimi! faster but cannot overtake Massa..lol

[jas123f1]

Yes the Italians probably love to see Massa (Brazilian who was a proper sidekick for MS) winning races and possibly championship over the newcomer and Finn. Kimi Raikonen.. and the Ferrari team DOES doing the 'Right' thing, and this is might be the case that its a payback time for Massa.. Jean Todt and Montzemello knows it by heart ;)
and thats how it goes I guess.. Poor Kimi! faster but cannot overtake Massa..lol

I think that Kimi is an very honest guy and as far as Ferrari is fair against him - he is working and giving them everything he has, but if he feels that he is a some kind support to Massa - then there can be problems - because that's absolutely against everything he is.. I think and hope that Todd understand that.. (and in other hand it would be interesting to see what happen if they try to “domesticate” him to be a second driver like Rubens and also Massa was to Schumi. I think he would rather go to Toyota than be some kind high paid "support" to anyone :)

[ioan]

I think that Kimi is an very honest guy and as far as Ferrari is fair against him - he is working and giving them everything he has, but if he feels that he is a some kind support to Massa - then there can be problems - because that's absolutely against everything he is.. I think and hope that Todd understand that.. (and in other hand it would be interesting to see what happen if they try to “domesticate” him to be a second driver like Rubens and also Massa was to Schumi. I think he would rather go to Toyota than be some kind high paid "support" to anyone :)

I think that you should take a look to the picture again and try to understand the reality: Ferrari did not favor any of their drivers this season.

As for the Toyota nonsense. :rolleyes:

[jas123f1]

I think that you should take a look to the picture again and try to understand the reality: Ferrari did not favor any of their drivers this season.

As for the Toyota nonsense. :rolleyes:

They did it in Turkey - and i hope that it doesn't happen again. I don't want that any of driver are favoured - not Kimi or Massa.

I'm don't saying he will go to Toyota - I said " i think he would RATHER go to Toyota than be some kind high paid "support" to anyone .. :uhoh:

[ShiftingGears]

They did it in Turkey - and i hope that it doesn't happen again. I don't want that any of driver are favoured - not Kimi or Massa.

I'm don't saying he will go to Toyota - I said " i think he would RATHER go to Toyota than be some kind high paid "support" to anyone .. :uhoh:

Clearly explain to me where they favoured Massa. Kimi made the mistake off his own accord.

[ArrowsFA1]

Clearly explain to me where they favoured Massa. Kimi made the mistake off his own accord.
Certainly Kimi made the mistake in Q3 which may well have affected his grid position, and we know how grid position is crucial in determining the end result.

Kimi's fastest lap was his way of saying 'I could have had a go at my team-mate' but, as with McLaren at Monaco, it is not in the interests of the team to have their two drivers fighting for position, and risking the points that were already in the bag.

Whether anyone sees that as favouring one driver over another depends on your point of view.

[ioan]

They did it in Turkey - and i hope that it doesn't happen again. I don't want that any of driver are favoured - not Kimi or Massa.


Than they did it in France too, where Felipe was faster than Kimi but had to settle for 2nd place.

So in your opinion whom are they favoring after all Kimi or Felipe? :rolleyes:
Common be unbiased at least once! :p :

[jas123f1]

Than they did it in France too, where Felipe was faster than Kimi but had to settle for 2nd place.

So in your opinion whom are they favoring after all Kimi or Felipe? :rolleyes:
Common be unbiased at least once! :p :

You know what happened in France and it was not any favouring there.

It's also a bit funny that first you are saying that Ferrari has not been favouring ANY driver this season and then that they however did it in France?

I think your first assumption was right until Turkey.

Because in Turkey they did favour Massa - or what you like to call it when the team decide the winner without giving drivers any chance to fight of it?
Strategy? Tactic? Ok – call it what you want but the result is the same – the team decided the winner in Turkey.
Why they did it? it’s possible that they trusted more combination "Massa Kimi" than "Kimi Massa" when Hamilton was behind them and after the second pitstop and Hamilton’s puncture it was too late to regret anything – but whatever the reason was they did decide the winner.

You must be getting blind if you haven't seen that.. I really start to worry about your eyesight... :D

[Firstgear]

Ferrari did not favor any of their drivers this season.

"this season"

That's very good. There may be hope for you yet.

[Viktory]

I don't want that any of driver are favoured - not Kimi or Massa.

Well you should be happy then since none of the drivers have been favoured this year. Kimi lost first place in Turkey by his own weak performance in qualifying.

[ioan]

You know what happened in France and it was not any favouring there.

It happened exactly what happened in Turkey only that Kimi won although Felipe was the faster one. And as you say there was no favoring any driver.

And it was no favoring any driver in Turkey either, you just need to leave your personal bias aside to see that.

[ioan]

"this season"

That's very good. There may be hope for you yet.

I can't argue that they didn't favored MS in 2002 at the A1 Ring, they sure did.
But I think they did the right thing (as they had one very talented driver that was clearly going to beat the other one over a season), but they did it the wrong way.

Now they have to equally good drivers and they are doing the right thing again.

[Firstgear]

OK, I'll have to apologise then. I thought you were one of the people that claimed MS never recieved any preferencial treatment while at Ferrari.

[jas123f1]

Well you should be happy then since none of the drivers have been favoured this year. Kimi lost first place in Turkey by his own weak performance in qualifying.

The win was absolutely depending of the fact that Kimi went to both pitstops first and it really was the team who decided that not drivers. I’m not saying that Kimi had won, if Massa went first to one of the pitstops, but it had clearly been more fair play. That's still may opinion of it - sorry .. :)

[ioan]

The win was absolutely depending of the fact that Kimi went to both pitstops first and it really was the team who decided that not drivers. I’m not saying that Kimi had won, if Massa went first to one of the pitstops, but it had clearly been more fair play. That's still may opinion of it - sorry .. :)

Kimi had chosen a lighter car for the qualifying so he HAD to stop first.
Felipe went for a heavier car in qualifying and so he could stop one lap later.

Kimi made a mistake in qualifying and could not convert his weight advantage into a better start position than Felipe.

I don't see where is the team to blame for Kimi's mistakes. :rolleyes:

[jens]

You have been arguing about the same thing for quite long. I thought it's crystal clear by now.

[wmcot]

You have been arguing about the same thing for quite long. I thought it's crystal clear by now.

At least MOST of us think it's clear...

[markabilly]

Kimi had chosen a lighter car for the qualifying so he HAD to stop first.
Felipe went for a heavier car in qualifying and so he could stop one lap later.

Kimi made a mistake in qualifying and could not convert his weight advantage into a better start position than Felipe.

I don't see where is the team to blame for Kimi's mistakes. :rolleyes:


The win was absolutely depending of the fact that Kimi went to both pitstops first and it really was the team who decided that not drivers. I’m not saying that Kimi had won, if Massa went first to one of the pitstops, but it had clearly been more fair play. That's still may opinion of it - sorry .. :)


Certainly Kimi made the mistake in Q3 which may well have affected his grid position, and we know how grid position is crucial in determining the end result.

Kimi's fastest lap was his way of saying 'I could have had a go at my team-mate' but, as with McLaren at Monaco, it is not in the interests of the team to have their two drivers fighting for position, and risking the points that were already in the bag.

Whether anyone sees that as favouring one driver over another depends on your point of view.

FIRST:

How have each of you determined that KR had the lighter car (assuming the rest of you besides Ioan did so)? Did you measure the gallons yourself?

If it was based on who pitted first...that is no indication of anything.

McLaren claimed they were favoring no one, but that they simply followed the rule that he who qualified first and was leading should pit second, getting to do a fast lap while the other was exiting the pits with a heavy fuel load and colder tires...so as to not penalize him for being faster in q.

If the polesitter always has to pit first, then what is the point in out-Qing your teamate? None, better to be about a tenth of a second behind and keep on his tail until the first pits stops....

Perhaps and more likely, Ferrari did the same rule: He is first in Q, and is in front during the race, pits second....... So that is not favoring one over the other, unless some "sneaky stuff" was occurring in Q

As Kimi has said, boring races decided by q, since passing is impossible


SECOND:

You guys remind me of the laugh I used to get from watch Speed TV, when Hobbs and crew would go on, when no matter who was leading, how the team was practicing and being sure the equipment would work for pit stops by doing the [second driver] first at ferrari, to be sure everything was going to work for MS

or alternatively, how MS was so much faster than RB or EI because MS had a
heavier fuel load but was still faster with his "heavy load".... :rolleyes:

And then there were the stops where MS was behind the other driver, and the other driver would pit first, and when the pits stops were over, somehow MS would have passed the other driver (rb or ei).....clearly the reason for MS being behind was running the heavier fuel load...... :rolleyes:

Sure.....there is ocean front property in Kansas, and do I have a deal for you...

BOTTOM LINE:

When the driver out-qualifies the other and is leading the race is required to pit first, and the other comes out ahead after the pit stops are completed for both.. :eek: ..then we shall have a much better understanding of who is number one and getting clearly preferential treatment....without the shame, outrage and probable penalty that occurrs when the other driver pulls over on the last corner to be passed by his teammate....

REAL SHAME:

Passing on the track has been a joke for years and will continue to be so......

[555-04Q2]

FIRST:

How have each of you determined that KR had the lighter car (assuming the rest of you besides Ioan did so)? Did you measure the gallons yourself?

If it was based on who pitted first...that is no indication of anything.

So Kimi pitted first with a heavier fuel load and let Massa carry on with a lighter car to extend his gap to Kimi for 2 stops and gave Massa the advantage on purpose :?: :s tareup:

Tip for the day - Lay off the green stuff buddy :s mokin:

[janneppi]

So Kimi pitted first with a heavier fuel load and let Massa carry on with a lighter car to extend his gap to Kimi for 2 stops and gave Massa the advantage on purpose :?: :s tareup:

Tip for the day - Lay off the green stuff buddy :s mokin:
Exactly, that would also mean that Ferrari would compromise WCC points chances if hindering on purpose one of their drivers race strategy, which i can't really yet see happening this season.

[markabilly]

So Kimi pitted first with a heavier fuel load and let Massa carry on with a lighter car to extend his gap to Kimi for 2 stops and gave Massa the advantage on purpose :?: :s tareup:

Tip for the day - Lay off the green stuff buddy :s mokin:


Exactly, that would also mean that Ferrari would compromise WCC points chances if hindering on purpose one of their drivers race strategy, which i can't really yet see happening this season.


NOT what I said--simple strategy is that he who is on pole and is in the lead pits second...whoever earns in Q, keeps to keep it for the race. So if KR had been ahead of Massa at the time of pits, then KR would have pitted second instead of MAssa.... :D

Otherwise what is the incentive to beat your teamie in Q, if to surrender it by a pass in the pits?

Only if the two cars had extremely different strategy as in a one stopper for one vs a two stopper for the other... would the rule be different...

As to actually knowing who had the lighter tanks at the start of the race or at start of Q, well that has yet to be demonstrated by anyone...and even if ferrari said that was true...I for one would take that with a grain of salt.....


And when the cars are finishing one-two are both yours, it matters not for the WCC who is first......and to win the WCC, it is imperative that MAc keep FA reasonably happy and motivated....

[Flat.tyres]

Well, obviously nobody can measure the fuel load but do you really think Ferrari have 2/10s of a second per lap over McLaren that they can risk potentially pitting a driver when he still has 2 laps of fuel plus margin in his tank?

Mind you, I bet Massa wished they did in qualifying for him :laugh:

[ioan]

NOT what I said--simple strategy is that he who is on pole and is in the lead pits second...whoever earns in Q, keeps to keep it for the race. So if KR had been ahead of Massa at the time of pits, then KR would have pitted second instead of MAssa.... :D

Because they need to maximize their qualifying chances they do not qualify both drivers with the same amount of fuel as they know it very well that they can't stop both in the same lap.

One will always qualify with more fuel, at least for one more lap.

[markabilly]

Well, obviously nobody can measure the fuel load but do you really think Ferrari have 2/10s of a second per lap over McLaren that they can risk potentially pitting a driver when he still has 2 laps of fuel plus margin in his tank?

Mind you, I bet Massa wished they did in qualifying for him :laugh:


Yep and put two less laps of fuel in the car :rolleyes:
Get real!!!! why give the teamie a free pass in the pits when he is who is running behind?

Simple. when that teamie is chosen as the man to win a wdc

[SGWilko]

simple strategy is that he who is on pole and is in the lead pits second..

No way, Pedro.

Common sense says that the driver with the least fuel on board pits first. And who had the lighter car of the Ferraris in Turkey, but failed to convert that into pole position?

Ummmm, let me guess......?

It is rare that I agree with Ioan, but he is dead right. Ferrari were favouring no one but themselves in Turkey, ensuring the TEAM came home with max points. Now, if LH's tyre had not burst, he MIGHT have got one of them at the final pit stops, but as the fat lady started singing way before then, we'll never know.

Stuart

[ArrowsFA1]

It is rare that I agree with Ioan, but he is dead right. Ferrari were favouring no one but themselves in Turkey, ensuring the TEAM came home with max points.
And yet it's funny how McLaren were condemned for doing exactly the same in Monaco :dozey:

The problem with the current, strategy dominated F1, is that the race result is as good as decided before the teams and drivers go racing on Sunday :down: Invariably the only thing that can change the result is mechanical problems or driver error.

[jas123f1]

Kimi had chosen a lighter car for the qualifying so he HAD to stop first.
Felipe went for a heavier car in qualifying and so he could stop one lap later.


I understood allready that it’s your opinion of it, but you really don’t know who was lighter or heavier. Usually it’s not Kimi who is lighter and only the fact that he made a little mistake in Q3 – doesn’t tell us that he was lighter this time – so we actually don’t know who was lighter or heavier.

But we do know that one of the drivers went to both pitstop first (Kimi) and therefore he hadn’t any possibilities to win the race in Turkey.

That’s a fact and it was a team decision and by that the team decided also the winner. One can only speculate why they did it??? I think the reason can be WCC points – it’s possible that they was thinking that it’s easier for Ferrari to win WCC title than WDC title and are working more for that.

And as it was in Turkey where tree cars very CLOSE EACH OTHER – therefore "maybe" it was more preferable to have Kimi between Massa and Hamilton than have Massa between Kimi and Hamilton? It was not that long time a go when Alonso was passing Massa in the end of race - only 5 laps left - and tog the win. But what the reason ever was – I don’t like it - if/when the winners are decided outside the track.. :z

[ioan]

And yet it's funny how McLaren were condemned for doing exactly the same in Monaco :dozey:

There are some differences between those to events.

Hamilton was pissed of and vocal about it because he still had fuel on board for a few laps when they asked him to pit before FA, and than FA and RD came up with that bizarre SC fear and FA saving fuel and so on explanations.

In Turkey however Kimi did acknowledge that he lost his race when he made a mistake in qualifying.

[ioan]

I understood allready that it’s your opinion of it, but you really don’t know who was lighter or heavier. Usually it’s not Kimi who is lighter and only the fact that he made a little mistake in Q3 – doesn’t tell us that he was lighter this time – so we actually don’t know who was lighter or heavier.

But we do know that one of the drivers went to both pitstop first (Kimi) and therefore he hadn’t any possibilities to win the race in Turkey.

That’s a fact and it was a team decision and by that the team decided also the winner. One can only speculate why they did it??? I think the reason can be WCC points – it’s possible that they was thinking that it’s easier for Ferrari to win WCC title than WDC title and are working more for that.

And as it was in Turkey where tree cars very CLOSE EACH OTHER – therefore "maybe" it was more preferable to have Kimi between Massa and Hamilton than have Massa between Kimi and Hamilton? It was not that long time a go when Alonso was passing Massa in the end of race - only 5 laps left - and tog the win. But what the reason ever was – I don’t like it - if/when the winners are decided outside the track.. :z

:rolleyes:

So what you are basically arguing is that Ferrari should have gave Kimi a strategy that would have allowed him to win the race.
But you don't
like it - if/when the winners are decided outside the track.. .

:s

[jas123f1]

:rolleyes:

So what you are basically arguing is that Ferrari should have gave Kimi a strategy that would have allowed him to win the race.
But you don't .

:s

Did you don’t understood it yet?
E.g. Massa tog the first pitstop and Kimi the second – or opposite.
Massa had the pole so let him make the choice. :)

[ioan]

Did you don’t understood it yet?

Yes I did, anything else than Kimi winning will not go down as right in your eyes! :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

For you Kimi fans, you might want to take Kimi's own words as being true, when he describes a race as being boring and decided by qualifying as having truth in them as to what to expect between teamates as far as the race and pit stops................

or you could just say his ability to tell the truth was severly damaged because that stuff he was drinking at the post race conference was some RD kool aid and he is truly clueless......or worse.

Me? I think he was just stating what he thought to be the obvious truth..... :s mokin:

Now if ferrari were to designate him as the "chosen one" for the WDC, then pit stops coming second when he is behind his teamate and passing him in the pits, should show us that real soon....as time be runing out on the red boys as to the WDC :eek: