Is youth crime out of control in the UK

[Flat.tyres]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6959761.stm

with news that an 11 year old boy, returning from footie practice, was gunned down in cold blood, you have to ask if things are out of control these days.

I suppose it has always been a small percentage of kids that are the wrong-uns and it would be criminally unjust to lump all kids together but it seems that there is little deterrent these days to stop anti-social behaviour and teenage crime.

bring back boot camp i say. get these little gits off the street, sweat them, enforce some discipline and put the fear of bejezus into the little loves. the softly, softly, hug a hoodie approach clearly doesnt work.

[LotusElise]

Semi-Liverpudlian here.
I can say with a high degree of confidence that it's not just "youth crime" and boot camps won't solve it. From what I know of crime in general in that area, and probably a lot of other areas, the root cause is drugs and drug dealing.
It is very sad that the foot soldiers and innocent bystanders appear to be getting ever younger, but caution should be exercised here. I'm not sure if policies have been changed, but gang-related crime never used to be publicised. You would walk past a police cordon and see the blood on the floor on your way to the train station or wherever but hear nothing of it, apart from rumours. Due to the age of the victim, this embargo on gang crime reporting may have been lifted, and I suspect it has.
Gang crime has always been there, but largely unreported. It might well be that it is just being covered by the media more now.

[Daniel]

Good to know the Police are treating the theft of wireless internet seriously though :D

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=41884

[Flat.tyres]

500 quid fine and a 12 month conditional discharge.

he should have murdered someone and got a lesser sentence.

[Drew]

I think youth crime has always been a problem, don't forget the mods and rockers smashing the crap out of each other.

It's just now we live in a technological age. In the olden days you'd see the news at 6pm and 9pm and maybe you'd get a paper once a day, that's pretty slow. Now you can (in the UK) watch Sky news, bbc news 24, russian news, euronews, french news, CNN and all the other channels, you can log on to the internet and read and watch the news on thousands of websites. I think that now there is more news time to fill up that every crime is covered and people are more aware of it :)

Having said that, ignorance is bliss.

[Flat.tyres]

who have the mods been beating up now. :s hock:

I just get little red kisses on my user CP but didn't realise they came round your house and give you a battering. guess I better start being nice to the "reality challenged" members on the F1 forum :D

[Drew]

who have the mods been beating up now. :s hock:

I just get little red kisses on my user CP but didn't realise they came round your house and give you a battering. guess I better start being nice to the "reality challenged" members on the F1 forum :D

Well, Mark is himself a fully trained torturer, trained by Colonel Kadaffi himself. Mark has a team of worldwide underground moderators that knows where everybody lives, where they work and where they eat lunch. They come round to your house, place of work or elsewhere and "sort things out". They're also meant to deliver birthday cakes and the chocolate cake for reaching a 1000 posts. Funny that, always the torture and never the cakes :\

That's the real crime :bandit:

[Flat.tyres]

sorry, I know this isn't about youths and is just another shooting but I loved the last part of the interview where it reported



A taxi driver, near Letchworth's railway station, who did not want to be named said: "As far as I know a man has been shot in the face three times.
"I've been told by other drivers that one of the blokes said he was going to shoot the other and the other one said 'go on then'. And he did, three times."

[BDunnell]

I think youth crime has always been a problem, don't forget the mods and rockers smashing the crap out of each other.

I generally agree. I also feel very sorry for the vast majority of kids who do nothing wrong and are upstanding citizens, but who get tarred with the brush of being part of a sick society and the worst-behaved generation ever — that sort of stuff. Of course teenage gun crime and other examples of serious wrongdoing amongst children are awful things, but this doesn't mean to say we should all be quaking in our boots or saying that all Britain's children are out of control.

I would add that I also worry about the notion that taking a hard line in order to 'instil respect' is a good thing. I don't want children terrorising my neighbourhood or anyone else's, but neither do I want a generation growing up who are forced into servile obedience. Surely a balance can be struck that doesn't involve boot camps, military service (go into certain pubs in Aldershot on a Friday evening and then tell me that being in the Army automatically leads to good behaviour!) and the like?

[LotusElise]

Some very good points there BDunnell, especially the one about Aldershot. I am very skeptical of the benefits of the Army as a civilising influence.
Youth crime as a whole is not an isolated phenomenon. It is often a product of the same social problems as adult crime. Doing something about the huge drug dealing networks we have in this country would get rid of a hell of a lot of it. However, that would require international co-operation, increased patrols of ports and entry points, a lot of highly-trained police and wider access to drug addiction treatments, which we don't have at the moment.

[Flat.tyres]

I generally agree. I also feel very sorry for the
vast majority of kids who do nothing wrong and are upstanding citizens, but who get tarred with the brush of being part of a sick society and the worst-behaved generation ever — that sort of stuff. Of course teenage gun crime and other examples of serious wrongdoing amongst children are awful things, but this doesn't mean to say we should all be quaking in our boots or saying that all Britain's children are out of control.

I would add that I also worry about the notion that taking a hard line in order to 'instil respect' is a good thing. I don't want children terrorising my neighbourhood or anyone else's, but neither do I want a generation growing up who are forced into servile obedience. Surely a balance can be struck that doesn't involve boot camps, military service (go into certain pubs in Aldershot on a Friday evening and then tell me that being in the Army automatically leads to good behaviour!) and the like?

nobody is suggesting it is anything but a small proportion of kids making all the trouble but year on year, there is a diminishing of social responsibility and respect in society.

10 years ago, you might have a word with a group of lads making a nusience of themselves but who would now unless you want severe verbal abuse, to be spat at, assaulted or knifed.

so, what do we need to do as a sociaty to resolve this situation? what would you recommend to get these people back into a structured society?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gee, anyone gonna ban Hoodies again? How about that ban on handguns? How well is THAT working for you over in the UK?

I don't like to make light of a tragic situation, but lets be upfront. Knee Jerk solutions have been the way politicians have treated this. Too many murders with guns? Ban them all....never mind that anyone with the gumption to kill someone in cold blood isn't worried about the fact the gun is illegal. Too many misbeaving kids? put em in Boot camp.....

No, there has to be a all front attack on youth crime and the drug culture. It has to be steady, well funded and well thought out. In short, society is doomed because politicians hate solutions that take a long period of time and they cant claim as their own idea....

[Donney]

I suggest starting home. Many parents are responsible for this type of behaviour. I know it is a tough job but many things are learnt or not at home.

[Drew]

A detective has said that people are right to "challenge bad behaviour", but not what they can legally do. I think clarification would be a start and then to work on the reasons why people commit crime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6948537.stm

[Erki]

If world politicians are lying and playing power games, what can you really expect anyway?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drew, you don't need a study. It is simple. People who commit crimes are dishonest. They actually do it instead of thinking about it if they think they can get away with it. Some are not bright, and get caught immediately. Some are smarter and do it better and don't get caught. You want to stop crime, you have to increase the amount of convictions you get (that deters people from straying into a life of crime) and maybe increase the length of sentences (people in jail are not breaking and entering your house the next week). Rehab is part of this process, but it hasn't been successful in the manner people think it has. There has to be a deterrence through fear as much as trying to teach people the error of their ways. Face it, some people are just crooks....so we should make sure crime doesn't pay.

[Drew]

Drew, you don't need a study. It is simple. People who commit crimes are dishonest. They actually do it instead of thinking about it if they think they can get away with it. Some are not bright, and get caught immediately. Some are smarter and do it better and don't get caught. You want to stop crime, you have to increase the amount of convictions you get (that deters people from straying into a life of crime) and maybe increase the length of sentences (people in jail are not breaking and entering your house the next week). Rehab is part of this process, but it hasn't been successful in the manner people think it has. There has to be a deterrence through fear as much as trying to teach people the error of their ways. Face it, some people are just crooks....so we should make sure crime doesn't pay.

Crime is not so black and white. There are many different crimes and many different reasons: poverty, alienation, peer pressure, psychological problems, disagreement with society and so on.

I'm not saying, hey let's shut the prisons, but there are more reasons than people are just dishonest or born that way. These reasons should be solved or helped, instead of just chucking people in prison, alienating them even more and then them getting back at society by commiting more crimes.

You'll never defeat crime totally, that'd be almost impossible. Some people will always break the law, of course. But some people don't just break the law because they're dishonest :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Crime is not so black and white. There are many different crimes and many different reasons: poverty, alienation, peer pressure, psychological problems, disagreement with society and so on.

I'm not saying, hey let's shut the prisons, but there are more reasons than people are just dishonest or born that way. These reasons should be solved or helped, instead of just chucking people in prison, alienating them even more and then them getting back at society by commiting more crimes.

You'll never defeat crime totally, that'd be almost impossible. Some people will always break the law, of course. But some people don't just break the law because they're dishonest :)

Really? See, I don't think it is black or white either, but I do think for the most part, most people who have a dishonest streak in them for the most part never act on impluses to steal or hurt because they are afraid of the consequences. The problem is there is a lack of personal accountability and a lack of punishment lately in the justice systems of most western democracies. Rehabilitation is great, but the attitude of society seems to be "we all make mistakes, it is ok" and while I agree with that up to a point, when you look at how teens feel they can get into gangs or drugs because they don't see a way forward, that is sad. No one in soceity is teaching them that it is a dead end street. Is it parenting? Enviroment? Maybe a lot of things, but the point remains that you can pick up your newspaper daily and wonder why some people are on the street after short sentences for some of the stupid things they do.......

It is not evil people vs good, but it is a lot of Naive people in there mucking up the works.....

[oily oaf]

I think youth crime has always been a problem, don't forget the mods and rockers smashing the crap out of each other.

It's just now we live in a technological age. In the olden days you'd see the news at 6pm and 9pm and maybe you'd get a paper once a day, that's pretty slow. Now you can (in the UK) watch Sky news, bbc news 24, russian news, euronews, french news, CNN and all the other channels, you can log on to the internet and read and watch the news on thousands of websites. I think that now there is more news time to fill up that every crime is covered and people are more aware of it :)

Having said that, ignorance is bliss.

There's more than a modicum of truth in that mate.
I suggest the ashen-faced Daily Mail reading populace stop rending their clothing and read novels such as "No Mean City" which chronicles the bloody activities of the fearsome razor gangs that roamed pre war Glasgow or "The Profession Of Violence" which eloquently describes the rise to prominence of the gangsters that ruled my own East London manor from Jack Spot and Billy Hill in the 1930s to the rise of "The Firm" headed of course by the notorious Kray brothers Ronnie and Reggie.
The knife, the sword, the boot and the gun were all prominent weapons deployed by these characters and their acolytes, many of them impressionable young men caught in a trap of grinding poverty and social exclusion.
I myself was a member of an East London gang of young hooligans known as "The Under Fives" because of our tender years who would regularly cross the river to South London and do battle with the likes of "The Elephant Boys" from Old Kent Road, The Norwood Toll, a fearsome little firm from SE25 and "The Treatment" a football following fraternity from the Millwall Docks area.
In short my friends it was ever thus and will continue to be so until a much cleverer person than I comes up with a way to correct the social injustices and sense of alienation and resentment that drives these young men to vent their pent up fury on a society which is unable or simply unwilling to give them a fair crack of the whip.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There's more than a modicum of truth in that mate.
I suggest the ashen-faced Daily Mail reading populace stop rending their clothing and read novels such as "No Mean City" which chronicles the bloody activities of the fearsome razor gangs that roamed pre war Glasgow or "The Profession Of Violence" which eloquently describes the rise to prominence of the gangsters that ruled my own East London manor from Jack Spot and Billy Hill in the 1930s to the rise of "The Firm" headed of course by the notorious Kray brothers Ronnie and Reggie.
The knife, the sword, the boot and the gun were all prominent weapons deployed by these characters and their acolytes, many of them impressionable young men caught in a trap of grinding poverty and social exclusion.
I myself was a member of an East London gang of young hooligans known as "The Under Fives" because of our tender years who would regularly cross the river to South London and do battle with the likes of "The Elephant Boys" from Old Kent Road, The Norwood Toll, a fearsome little firm from SE25 and "The Treatment" a football following fraternity from the Millwall Docks area.
In short my friends it was ever thus and will continue to be so until a much cleverer person than I comes up with a way to correct the social injustices and sense of alienation and resentment that drives these young men to vent their pent up fury on a society which is unable or simply unwilling to give them a fair crack of the whip.

You were a soccer hooligan for real? Geeze...I always knew you were special Oaf....

Actually, I am teasing you and I shouldn't be, you should be commended for a) admitting you were no angel and b) now being a productive citizen in the community...or at least I think you might be.

[oily oaf]

You were a soccer hooligan for real? Geeze...I always knew you were special Oaf....

Actually, I am teasing you and I shouldn't be, you should be commended for a) admitting you were no angel and b) now being a productive citizen in the community...or at least I think you might be.

Productive citizen. Yep spot on Mark Lurking Furtively Outside The Gent's Toilets At Belize Aerodrome.
In fact it was confirmed to me by none other than my apprentice after I set fire to his leg with brake cleaner and a Zippo lighter a few months back.
I must confess I blubbed shamelessly as he looked up at me with tears of respect and agony in his eyes as he plunged his burning flesh into Henry the welder's dousing tank and gushed "D'ya know wot gaffer, you're a right down productive citizen and no b*****d error"
Bless 'im :)
Yes I was indeed a gang member in my youth and a nasty little piece of work with it. However thanks to the foresight of my headmaster who dispatched me on an Outward Bound course for juvenile delinquents and the prompt actions of my dear old dad who bought a huge book on child psychology and smashed me all round the bloody house with it, I put down the cudgel and the cosh and took up the torque bar and ball joint splitter.
Of course back in those days we didn't use firearms, couldn't afford 'em you see :(
In fact I used to buy all my weapons on tick from "Yobs R Us" a tasty little Jewish hardware shop on The Isle Of Dogs.
Seriously though back then our weapons of choice were largely the fist and the steel toe-capped "Cherry Red" boot although one or two of the chaps used to carry flicknives which were legal and readily available in those days.
These were rarely used however and were mainly brandished around in displays of braggadochio to impress the girls.
The worst and most insidious weapon which did start to creep in to the armoury of some of the London firms was the detergent bottle filled with neat ammonia which would be aimed into the face of your opponent in a nasty practice known as "squirting up" Personally I considered this to be slap bang out of order because although I handed out a few good clumpings to rival gang members I don't think I ever wanted to permanently maim let alone kill anyone. (Some gangster huh? :( )
Unfortunately I was to experience this underhand practice at close quarters in the 1970's when an Arsenal hooligan sprayed me in the eyes during a pitched battle in East London. Thanks to the prompt actions of an Asian shopkeeper who ran from his store and rinsed my eyes with water my sight was saved. Madness or what?
When I think back to those days I can only console myself with the fact that I never molested a member of the public or "straightgoers" as we used to call them, or indeed any genuine football supporter (Scarfy) making his way peacefully to the game. Our battles were only with other like-minded people who were "up for it" and shared an identical moronic view that the defence of our "turf", "manor" or terrace "end" was a suitable reason to kick and punch each other to pieces.
Nowadays folks I'm a pretty avuncular sort of cove. Slow to anger and who'd much rather buy you a beer and share a joke or 50 than "stripe your boatrace" with a Stanly blade, but even today I know that under the surface the old violent streak is still there and at times I have to make a concerted effort to suppress it. Particularly after reading what some of those mugs produce in the way of prose in the F1 forum ;)

Now then boys and girls I want you all to jon me in the singing of the old West Ham hooligan anthem which we used to deliver with gusto on the way to the blessed Upton Park.
Sung to the tune of the famous old Cockney ditty "My Old Man Said Follow The Van" it went something like this:

My old man said follow West Ham
And dont go to Arsenal on the waaaaaaay
We''ll take the Highbury with the North Bank in it
We'll kill the Gooners
Then the game we'll win it
The Millwall The Tottenham
West Ham boys'll drop 'em
We give them a kicking every year
Cos we are the geezers with the Cockney accents
Yes the West Ham boys are 'ere. OI!

All together now
My Old man............... Come on Metro. Stop skulking at the back boy and put some bleedin' effort into it :mad:

[Woodeye]

Sounds really rough Oily.

Tell me, did you arrange the fights with the other gangs beforehand? I'm before the games or after the games in specific place or something like that? Or did the fights happen everytime you just saw someone from the other gang?

I'm supporting the view that you should write a book. I would be among the first ones buying it.

[Daniel]

Productive citizen. Yep spot on Mark Lurking Furtively Outside The Gent's Toilets At Belize Aerodrome.
In fact it was confirmed to me by none other than my apprentice after I set fire to his leg with brake cleaner and a Zippo lighter a few months back.
I must confess I blubbed shamelessly as he looked up at me with tears of respect and agony in his eyes as he plunged his burning flesh into Henry the welder's dousing tank and gushed "D'ya know wot gaffer, you're a right down productive citizen and no b*****d error"
Bless 'im :)
Yes I was indeed a gang member in my youth and a nasty little piece of work with it. However thanks to the foresight of my headmaster who dispatched me on an Outward Bound course for juvenile delinquents and the prompt actions of my dear old dad who bought a huge book on child psychology and smashed me all round the bloody house with it, I put down the cudgel and the cosh and took up the torque bar and ball joint splitter.
Of course back in those days we didn't use firearms, couldn't afford 'em you see :(
In fact I used to buy all my weapons on tick from "Yobs R Us" a tasty little Jewish hardware shop on The Isle Of Dogs.
Seriously though back then our weapons of choice were largely the fist and the steel toe-capped "Cherry Red" boot although one or two of the chaps used to carry flicknives which were legal and readily available in those days.
These were rarely used however and were mainly brandished around in displays of braggadochio to impress the girls.
The worst and most insidious weapon which did start to creep in to the armoury of some of the London firms was the detergent bottle filled with neat ammonia which would be aimed into the face of your opponent in a nasty practice known as "squirting up" Personally I considered this to be slap bang out of order because although I handed out a few good clumpings to rival gang members I don't think I ever wanted to permanently maim let alone kill anyone. (Some gangster huh? )
Unfortunately I was to experience this underhand practice at close quarters in the 1970's when an Arsenal hooligan sprayed me in the eyes during a pitched battle in East London. Thanks to the prompt actions of an Asian shopkeeper who ran from his store and rinsed my eyes with water my sight was saved. Madness or what?
When I think back to those days I can only console myself with the fact that I never molested a member of the public or "straightgoers" as we used to call them, or indeed any genuine football supporter (Scarfy) making his way peacefully to the game. Our battles were only with other like-minded people who were "up for it" and shared an identical moronic view that the defence of our "turf", "manor" or terrace "end" was a suitable reason to kick and punch each other to pieces.


Very interesting to read :)

[jim mcglinchey]

I dont know whats more sickening. The murder of 11 yr old Rhys Jones or the wall of silence met by the police in their investigation. I've seen the exact same thing happen in Belfast where the police know who stabbed to death a 15 yr old on his way back from the sweet shop, and all they need for an arrest that will stick is little co-operation from those in one small estate. The police have taken to driving round that estate towing a trailer with posters urging someone to come forward, for decencys sake, but to no avail. Very disheartening.

[oily oaf]

Sounds really rough Oily.

Tell me, did you arrange the fights with the other gangs beforehand? I'm before the games or after the games in specific place or something like that? Or did the fights happen everytime you just saw someone from the other gang?

I'm supporting the view that you should write a book. I would be among the first ones buying it.

Hehehehe I've never felt the urge to chronicle my nefarious lifestyle in book form Woody although surprisingly enough two other members of the West Ham ICF or Inter City Firm to give them their full title have written of their experiences. Most notably Cass Pennant who has written a number of novels on soccer violence and has been technical advisor on some of the highly fanciful movies which have attempted to display the world of the football hooligan such as Green Street (laughable) and The Football Factory , the most authentic of a pretty poor bunch.
Also William Gardener a staunch and fearless man who until very recently was banned from every West Ham game home and abroad and who became the most feared soccer hooligan in the country put pen to paper and produced his excellent and at times terrifying book "Good Afternoon Gentleman. The Name's Bill Gardener" which was the announcement he would make to rival gangs before doing battle.
I have however made a number of contributions to a few periodicals such as The Rheumatism And Arthritis News and Popular Flower Arranging Incorporating Threatening Behaviour Monthly :mad:

As for the modus operandi of the hooligans, I'll give you the sordid details tomorrow Woody as I have an urgent appointment with one of my neighbours who is having a Barbie shortly and has promised me a dog roll and all the saspirilla I can drink. Woohoo! :D

[oily oaf]

Blimey it's strong stuff that sarsaparilla! I've woke up this morning with a mouth like the bottom of a baby's pram :(
With regard to your question on football hooliganism Woody, the violence back in the 70s was fairly random in that attacks on rivals would take place whenever the opportunity arose ie in the streets surrounding the ground or pubs which were known to be favoured by rival gangs or sometimes at railway stations whereupon young kids of around 11 or 12 would be sent out as "scouts" for the hardcore hooligans who would be waiting in a nearby pub or side street for news of the whereabouts of their quarry.
Inside the grounds themselves things were far more organised with groups of 2 or 3 firm members positioning themselves among the rival supporters until a signal was given for everything to "kick off"
With the introduction of close circuit television and increased police presence this type of "operation" became much less commonplace and was replaced by pre arranged organised violence which would always take place well away from the grounds themselves and indeed was often carried out on non match days.
You might be surprised to learn that although the majority of thugs were young working class males a number of arrests have been made down the years which have included lawyers, estate agents (I always used to go looking for them ;) ) journalists and even a few doctors (probably trying to drum up a bit of business).
If any of want to see footage of organised ICF violence go to Youtube and type Westham in the search engine. The battle against Millwall is particularly interesting as the commentary is given by two police officers who were at the scene in a van.
You will also see how futile and mindless soccer hooliganism was back then and remains to this day.

Now then anyone fancy a fight? :arrows:

[Woodeye]

Thanks Oily. Somehow I've always found subcultures like hooliganism fascinating. Not in a way that I would like to participate in the action itself but to know the reasons behind it. (maybe it's just the fact that I'm sick individual) I think that I have to start looking for that book by Bill Gardener you mentioned. I've read a book written by an ex-nazi, Kent Lindahl, and I think these two are probably quite similar, good and terrifying at the same time.

I'm against all violence of course. But I'll take that challenge for a fight anytime. :bones:

Btw, isn't thug a synonym for a lawyer anyway?

[BDunnell]

No, there has to be a all front attack on youth crime and the drug culture. It has to be steady, well funded and well thought out. In short, society is doomed because politicians hate solutions that take a long period of time and they cant claim as their own idea....

I would generally go along with this, but feel I ought to point out that I don't feel society is doomed, because not all politicians are as you describe. There are plenty of long-term solutions to problems already being put into practice in all sorts of areas of society — we just don't hear about them, because of their very nature.

[BDunnell]

Crime is not so black and white. There are many different crimes and many different reasons: poverty, alienation, peer pressure, psychological problems, disagreement with society and so on.

I'm not saying, hey let's shut the prisons, but there are more reasons than people are just dishonest or born that way. These reasons should be solved or helped, instead of just chucking people in prison, alienating them even more and then them getting back at society by commiting more crimes.

You'll never defeat crime totally, that'd be almost impossible. Some people will always break the law, of course. But some people don't just break the law because they're dishonest :)

:up: to that, and what Oily went on to post.