Mercedes McLaren this Season [Archive]

ddevine

20th August 2007, 13:13

Flat.tyres

20th August 2007, 13:17

Caroline

20th August 2007, 13:38

Let’s forget speculation about feuds and get on with the winning!

If only it were that simple...some people obsess about the inner workings of a team and how folk relate to one another. But surely, the team as a whole is driven to do just one thing, be as successful as possible. That's what interests me.

markabilly

20th August 2007, 14:30

DUCK!!!!!!!!!!!

by the way, great first post :up:

Gee, it ain't it great, luv @ first sight :love:

As to commercials proving all is well...for sure, and even better we have a a a a british team , even though the engine has that nasty german label on the side, we all know it really comes from England, AND A BRITISH DRIVER leading (how could you forget!!), so let us all bow our heads for a moment of prayer..... :beer:

ioan

20th August 2007, 15:57

Apparently loads of this year’s technological advances are filtering through to the Mercs’ road cars (so that’s got to be good news for anyone buying a Merc)

As you say, apparently, as there is not that much a Mercedes can use from what they do in F1 (unless it's an SLR).

Are you some kind of Mercedes PR employee?!

What about the use of other team's intellectual property?! :p :
Oh. we should overlook that part. :D

Andrewmcm

20th August 2007, 16:20

As you say, apparently, as there is not that much a Mercedes can use from what they do in F1 (unless it's an SLR).

Are you some kind of Mercedes PR employee?!

What about the use of other team's intellectual property?! :p :
Oh. we should overlook that part. :D

How do you know? I'd wager that a significant amount of the developments in gearbox, drivetrain and electronics would filter down onto road cars, not to mention advances in carbon fibre technology and crash-worthiness. Remember that Mercedes owns a reasonably significant stake in McLaren, so they will most likely have access to the IP on the developments made on the chassis side of things.

I don't suppose you've read the technical specification of both the McLaren F1 car and the Mercedes road car in order to be able to assert that not much can be used? Maybe you should get hauled up before the FIA for charges of espionage.... :P

ioan

20th August 2007, 17:35

How do you know? I'd wager that a significant amount of the developments in gearbox, drivetrain and electronics would filter down onto road cars, not to mention advances in carbon fibre technology and crash-worthiness. Remember that Mercedes owns a reasonably significant stake in McLaren, so they will most likely have access to the IP on the developments made on the chassis side of things.

I don't suppose you've read the technical specification of both the McLaren F1 car and the Mercedes road car in order to be able to assert that not much can be used? Maybe you should get hauled up before the FIA for charges of espionage.... :P

How many road cars are mad of carbon fiber composites?
How many road cars do need seamless **** gearboxes? Also how many road cars have gearboxes that last 1000kms or engines that last 1500kms?
Crash worthiness? F1 cars do have crash tests done at 60kmh like road cars, and the exclusive use of carbon fiber composites used in F1 can't help to much to transfer it to road cars that are manufactured using mainly steel, aluminum and plastics.

As long as you don't produce high end sport cars (like Ferrari do :p : ) you have little relevant technology that goes from F1 to your road cars.

tinchote

20th August 2007, 17:40

Andrewmcm

20th August 2007, 18:36

How many road cars are mad of carbon fiber composites?
How many road cars do need seamless **** gearboxes? Also how many road cars have gearboxes that last 1000kms or engines that last 1500kms?
Crash worthiness? F1 cars do have crash tests done at 60kmh like road cars, and the exclusive use of carbon fiber composites used in F1 can't help to much to transfer it to road cars that are manufactured using mainly steel, aluminum and plastics.

As long as you don't produce high end sport cars (like Ferrari do :p : ) you have little relevant technology that goes from F1 to your road cars.

So where did paddle-shift gearboxes come from then? Weren't they developed by Ferrari in the 1980s, perfected by Williams in the 1990s and are now resplendent on quite a lot of mid- to high- range cars these days? Or don't innovations count if they were developed by manufacturers other than Ferrari?

Of course technology in the current F1 cars will filter down to road cars, thinking otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding as to how the research and development process evolves. It may not take the same form as that found on the pure racing car, but the essnce of the technology is the same.

airshifter

20th August 2007, 18:43

I'm glad to see the team doing well, but have to say I also think part of their sucess is do to Ferrari struggling a little more than in past years. I've always liked seeing the Mclaren team do well, and since us from the US really have no national link to modern day F1 for me it's just a matter of a team of historic significance staying up at or near the top.

Don't pop a gasket Ioan. I'd say over time probably a lot of tech from F1 eventually makes it to production in a refined way. Being the pinnacle of innovation, F1 opens a lot of doors. Naturally they can't always use the direct innovation in a road car, but I'm sure many things influence cars sold.

WelshLegend

20th August 2007, 18:51

Could i just ask how McLaren have become alomost 100% reliable in comparison to the last two years?

tinchote

20th August 2007, 19:22

Could i just ask how McLaren have become alomost 100% reliable in comparison to the last two years?

In my opinion, the main reason is that this year there is a rev limit at 19000. That makes all engines work further away from the breaking point, and this has been one of Mercedes' weaknesses in the past few years.

janneppi

20th August 2007, 19:38

I agree with tinchote, we haven't seen that many engine failures this year have we?
I don't remember the last time Macs were bullet proof if driven for podium places.

Big Ben

20th August 2007, 20:17

What about the use of other team's intellectual property?! :p :

Link please...

markabilly

20th August 2007, 22:55

Could i just ask how McLaren have become alomost 100% reliable in comparison to the last two years?

I have also asked the same question on this very forum but it was like for numerous years, mac had engine issues, then no more JPM, and more importantly, KR goes to ferrari, and they start having mechanical failures on his cars, but Mac is suddenly much more reliable.......

Rollo

21st August 2007, 00:19

Could i just ask how McLaren have become alomost 100% reliable in comparison to the last two years?

Embarassment is a wonderful thing :D

You might want to go back and watch the 2004 European GP at the Nuburgring. Raikkonen clearly wasn't happy with the motor car or its reliability all year, and by the time this GP came around he was livid.

If you've ever heard Kimi get angry then it's really something to behold. There were a whole bunch of four letter expletives communicated over the radio and he proved his point by deliberately detonating the engine in front of the pit garages and in front of Mercedes-Benz big wigs for whom it was their home GP.

If there was a single turning point then this was it. Engine unreliability probably cost McLaren the 2003 World Championship and certainly 2004 wasn't much chop. It took them two years to lift their game... and they've done it oh so very well.

it’s got to be that magic Mercedes touch hasn’t it? Apparently loads of this year’s technological advances are filtering through to the Mercs’ road cars (so that’s got to be good news for anyone buying a Merc).

Performance isn't one of them.

Mercedes-Benz are stuck with an image problem. They're forced to build relatively unexciting and gutless machines for the road. Anyonce who's driven either a C-Class or an E-Class over the past 25 years can attest to this. W204 which has only recently come out can't beat a 1.7 Diesel Astra off the line.

I think my W116 6.9 is possibly the last Mercedes-Benz which stirs any excitement. Now there's a car that's truly bonkers.

leopard

21st August 2007, 04:10

Could i just ask how McLaren have become alomost 100% reliable in comparison to the last two years?
sad but true

mstillhere

21st August 2007, 04:12

What about the use of other team's intellectual property?! :p :
Oh. we should overlook that part. :D

I can't wait to see them explaining to the world how they could so "perfectly" and "completly" resolve complicated issues regarding engine AND tires so quickly and oooops...... what a coincidence... one(?) of our employees has the whole book about Ferrari.....not suspicious at all.
And even if for some stupid reason they are not going to be found guilty, (as we have already seen) what would make me feel good is that for the entire world they would be guilty anyway. VENDETTA!!!!

janneppi

21st August 2007, 06:43

Let's not bring Stepneygate here please.
There is a whole thread for that for you to wallow in.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119893
thanks. :)

wmcot

21st August 2007, 06:54

Apparently loads of this year’s technological advances are filtering through to the Mercs’ road cars (so that’s got to be good news for anyone buying a Merc).

I understand the 2008 Mercs will have flexible floors! ;)

ShiftingGears

21st August 2007, 07:14

I'm in a tricky position as I want Raikkonen to win the WDC and McLaren to win the WCC. Hmmm.

raikk

21st August 2007, 07:49

Right, so we’ve got six races left in the season and McLaren Mercedes are leading the pack. Isn’t it nice to see a British team doing so well?! The car seems so reliable and the performances have been great, the drivers are clearly talented, but a lot has to be said about the car, it’s got to be that magic Mercedes touch hasn’t it? Apparently loads of this year’s technological advances are filtering through to the Mercs’ road cars (so that’s got to be good news for anyone buying a Merc). If you ask me the so-called Alonso – Hamilton feud is all press talk, and who cares so long as the car is performing on the track? The off-track politics don’t seem to be affecting the mechanics, drivers or car. There’s a really good video on the Mercedes website (http://www.mercedes-benz.tv) about making a Formula 1 TV commercial, they seem to be getting on fine in that! Let’s forget speculation about feuds and get on with the winning!

Great post! I feel the exact same way as you.. like really who cares about all this politic's and media BS that Mac haters post constantly... I'm lovin this years car ! goin to Spa to see them as well and I can't wait! It's great to see Mclaren raise out of the ashes after very many doubts last year that Mclaren would be able to do anything ! It really is a great kick in the arse for the haters/doubters of this team! and i think Lewis and Fernando are doing fine.. I'm lookingh forward to many more successful years from this team..
Good lucks guys!

raikk

21st August 2007, 07:50

I'm in a tricky position as I want Raikkonen to win the WDC and McLaren to win the WCC. Hmmm.

I was sort of the same way until I started following Hamilton last year! I still however have a soft spot for him and wish him well.. he really is one of the few parts for Ferrari I actually like

ArrowsFA1

21st August 2007, 08:32

As long as you don't produce high end sport cars you have little relevant technology that goes from F1 to your road cars.
That's not what the FIA and the manufacturers would say. It seems that the whole purpose of F1 today is to be a test bed for road cars :dozey:

truefan72

21st August 2007, 08:34

Right, so we’ve got six races left in the season and McLaren Mercedes are leading the pack. Isn’t it nice to see a British team doing so well?! The car seems so reliable and the performances have been great, the drivers are clearly talented, but a lot has to be said about the car, it’s got to be that magic Mercedes touch hasn’t it? Apparently loads of this year’s technological advances are filtering through to the Mercs’ road cars (so that’s got to be good news for anyone buying a Merc). If you ask me the so-called Alonso – Hamilton feud is all press talk, and who cares so long as the car is performing on the track? The off-track politics don’t seem to be affecting the mechanics, drivers or car. There’s a really good video on the Mercedes website (http://www.mercedes-benz.tv) about making a Formula 1 TV commercial, they seem to be getting on fine in that! Let’s forget speculation about feuds and get on with the winning!

good post good vids, I wonder when that commercial was made. if it was fairly recent then that's good news.

'bout time they started cashing in on the (hopefully amicable) rivalry. Either way, its a great spot for Mercedes. Like I've said in other threads, the fact that both drivers are 1-2 in the WDC is nothing but a benefit to sponsors, marketing etc.

janneppi

21st August 2007, 08:47

I saw the commercial some time before the previous race.
I suppose at that time they could joke about the rivalry, i'm not sure they could do it now.

Flat.tyres

21st August 2007, 10:04

Performance isn't one of them.

Mercedes-Benz are stuck with an image problem. They're forced to build relatively unexciting and gutless machines for the road. Anyonce who's driven either a C-Class or an E-Class over the past 25 years can attest to this. W204 which has only recently come out can't beat a 1.7 Diesel Astra off the line.

I think my W116 6.9 is possibly the last Mercedes-Benz which stirs any excitement. Now there's a car that's truly bonkers.

true, but they aren't really designed to be sports cars. I drive a CLK and its comfortable, practical and a pleasure to drive on the road.

now, if I was going to have a play, then a S class, either the 350 or the 55 is a hell of a motorcar to drive and will compare well with its rivals.

horses for courses

jso1985

21st August 2007, 21:10

Great post! I feel the exact same way as you.. like really who cares about all this politic's and media BS that Mac haters post constantly... I'm lovin this years car ! goin to Spa to see them as well and I can't wait! It's great to see Mclaren raise out of the ashes after very many doubts last year that Mclaren would be able to do anything ! It really is a great kick in the arse for the haters/doubters of this team! and i think Lewis and Fernando are doing fine.. I'm lookingh forward to many more successful years from this team..
Good lucks guys!

:up: great post!

let's keep this thread to discuss non-politics related McLaren stuff :)

ioan

21st August 2007, 22:00

That's not what the FIA and the manufacturers would say. It seems that the whole purpose of F1 today is to be a test bed for road cars :dozey:

Bullsh!t!

Why does Mosley feel the need to change F1 that much in order to make technological transfers from f1 to road cars a reality? Because it isn't a reality, not yet.

List of road cars using F1 technology:

Ferrari F50
Ferrari Enzo
McLaren Mercedes F1 GTR
McLaren Mercedes SLR
Renault Scenic F1
Renault F1 Roadster (I might be wrong with this one).

I'm not aware of any other.

We can argue that all cars have more or less 4 wheels, a sterring wheel and an engine and brakes and exhausts as F1 cars have etc, but the philosophy behind them is different in F1.

Rollo

22nd August 2007, 00:58

List of road cars using F1 technology:
I'm not aware of any other.

Toyota Yaris. :D

Yaris? Have I gone totally nuts?

This is just a short list of things developed in Formula One:

- Variable Valve Timing
- Engine mapping
- Use of the wind tunnel
- Brakes, tyres and oil technology
- Gearbox design
- Cylinder shape
- Traction control
- Fuel Injection
- Disc brakes even

What about all the aerodynamic knowledge? The same theory and knowledge that sculpted the Enzo's ugly hide is also used to make sure your small family hatch gets efficiency when cruising on the motorway, but is also stable at that speed.

Look at any part of any modern car and you will find that the significant majority of the components will have been shaped by motorsport in some period of their history, a lot of it from F1. OK, so stuff from the TF107 won't appear on the 2008 Corolla but it might do within ten years.

Please expand your list to include every single car sold on planet earth.

leopard

22nd August 2007, 03:24

I drive an old Civic, not comfortable at all and no F1 technology adopted in it ;( :D

Rollo

22nd August 2007, 05:07

Even the very first Honda Civic (1973) had disc brakes which first made their appearance on a Maserati 250F in 1950. Dunlop had developed them and they found their way onto Jaguars 3 years later - ergo F1 technology :D

I know of know car in the world currently sold that doesn't have front disc brakes at least.

leopard

22nd August 2007, 05:27

And its narrow space for footing might have similarity with F1 car also, that makes my knees bumped into the dashboard frequently ;( :D

wmcot

22nd August 2007, 06:32

I've added a rear diffuser to my 1999 Toyota Corolla - really makes it handle well ! ;)

ioan

22nd August 2007, 07:48

Toyota Yaris. :D

Yaris? Have I gone totally nuts?

This is just a short list of things developed in Formula One:

- Variable Valve Timing
- Engine mapping
- Use of the wind tunnel
- Brakes, tyres and oil technology
- Gearbox design
- Cylinder shape
- Traction control
- Fuel Injection
- Disc brakes even

What about all the aerodynamic knowledge? The same theory and knowledge that sculpted the Enzo's ugly hide is also used to make sure your small family hatch gets efficiency when cruising on the motorway, but is also stable at that speed.

Look at any part of any modern car and you will find that the significant majority of the components will have been shaped by motorsport in some period of their history, a lot of it from F1. OK, so stuff from the TF107 won't appear on the 2008 Corolla but it might do within ten years.

Please expand your list to include every single car sold on planet earth.

I think you are totally nuts, or you don't make a difference between F1 technology and what you get with that Yaris.

Rollo

22nd August 2007, 08:16

If you happen to be a company with any piece of technology you can sell, you'd be fool not to, because someone somewhere else will. Given that Grand Prix racing has now been around for 57 years in the modern sense, then it's only natural that things filter downwards eventually.

Graham Hill's Lotus 49B at the 1968 British GP qualified with a time of 1m33.8s would have seen him 8th at the BTCC round on the same course in 2005. Hill's Lotus 49B did not have computer engine management or electronic fuel injection so so much for your theory.

Why should I make a distinction between something like Variable Valve Timing on a GP car and a Yaris? It's the same technology, it's just that F1 cars are obviously further ahead... given time though...

I fully expect that ceramic brakes for instance will start appearing in road cars soon. Heck 4wd might appear on road cars from the WRC, you just never know.

ArrowsFA1

22nd August 2007, 09:56

Bullsh!t!
Really? These are all headline stories from Autosport in the last year:

Honda urge for alternative US GP venue
Honda team boss Nick Fry says it is critical for the Japanese manufacturer that Formula One returns to the United States as soon as possible..."a global property such as Formula One needs to be represented in the biggest market where motor manufacturers are key players."

Mosley: greener F1 to help reduce costs
"The idea behind it is to directly connect the development in Formula One to road car production. The bigger the overlap, the bigger the economization - and the better for the protection of our climate."

FIA, car makers to work on F1 shake-up
The car makers involved in the sport, as well as Ford and Audi, have all been issued preliminary documents outlining a big overhaul of the sport's regulations to make it more environmentally friendly and relevant to the road car industry.

Mosley to meet with carmakers in Monaco
F1 is set to embrace radically different regulations in the near future, with energy renewal devices and more environmentally-friendly technologies adopted to make Grand Prix racing more relevant to the road car industry.

President says Renault in F1 to stay
"For Renault, this is an investment - and an investment that aids the growth of the Renault brand and Renault's products."

Mosley: freeze will bring new technologies
"With energy recovery and re-use combined with power limitation by energy consumed, we will have a Formula One fully in tune with the core research of the major car companies."

Mosley pushes regenerative energy
"Making things light and efficient is a great F1 talent," he said. "And it wouldn't be long before relatively inexpensive versions of these devices could be offered on high-performance road cars."

Flat.tyres

22nd August 2007, 10:51

I think you are totally nuts, or you don't make a difference between F1 technology and what you get with that Yaris.

do you actually believe the stuff you write :s hock:

rollo has given conclusive proof of where F1 technology influences just about every car out there and you cannot see it because it differs from your opinion?

just because a Yarris doesnt look like a modern F1 car in no way reflects on the previous F1 technology that over the years have gone to develop the Yarris.

by the way Rollo, I think there is a Porsche using ceramics.

Andrewmcm

22nd August 2007, 16:48

I think you are totally nuts, or you don't make a difference between F1 technology and what you get with that Yaris.

That's possibly the funniest thing I've read in an extremely long time. It's just a shame that you actually mean what you write, otherwise you'd make a fortune in stand-up comedy. The pot appears to be calling the kettle black.

Again Ioan, I ask you to provide documentary evidence to support your claims that no technology derived from F1 cars appears on modern Mercedes cars. Or a Toyota Yaris. Or a Renualt Clio. Or any other modern road car.

ioan

22nd August 2007, 20:21

Really? These are all headline stories from Autosport in the last year:

Honda urge for alternative US GP venue
Honda team boss Nick Fry says it is critical for the Japanese manufacturer that Formula One returns to the United States as soon as possible..."a global property such as Formula One needs to be represented in the biggest market where motor manufacturers are key players."

President says Renault in F1 to stay
"For Renault, this is an investment - and an investment that aids the growth of the Renault brand and Renault's products."

Nothing to do with technology transfer to road cars! Only with brand awareness. :rolleyes:

FIA, car makers to work on F1 shake-up
The car makers involved in the sport, as well as Ford and Audi, have all been issued preliminary documents outlining a big overhaul of the sport's regulations to make it more environmentally friendly and relevant to the road car industry.

Mosley: greener F1 to help reduce costs
"The idea behind it is to directly connect the development in Formula One to road car production. The bigger the overlap, the bigger the economization - and the better for the protection of our climate."

Mosley to meet with carmakers in Monaco
F1 is set to embrace radically different regulations in the near future, with energy renewal devices and more environmentally-friendly technologies adopted to make Grand Prix racing more relevant to the road car industry.

Mosley: freeze will bring new technologies
"With energy recovery and re-use combined with power limitation by energy consumed, we will have a Formula One fully in tune with the core research of the major car companies."

Mosley pushes regenerative energy
"Making things light and efficient is a great F1 talent," he said. "And it wouldn't be long before relatively inexpensive versions of these devices could be offered on high-performance road cars."

Exactly as I said, it's a thing of future, maybe after Mosley dumbs F1 down to 6 cylinder biofueled diesels or hybrid engines and other green techniques!
But this isn't a reality now!

There are only very few high end sport cars that benefit from the F1 technology development, and even those use F1 technology from the late 90's.

Mercedes road cars, other than their next super SLR, will not benefit from this years technology for another decade. Why is that? Because it's to expensive for the moment.

So either you come with something conclusive or give me a break, will ya?

Rollo

22nd August 2007, 21:38

This sounds like a CHALLENGE!! :D

Right then, if you tell me what sort of car you drive Mr ioan, I bet I can find 10 things about it that were developed in Formula One. Remember, I do have quite an extensive library so I will be quoting individual model numbers just to make it interesting.

Andrewmcm

22nd August 2007, 21:54

Ok, I think what's happening here is that ioan sees "technology transfer" as taking technology from F1 cars and putting it more-or-less straight onto road cars, whereas the rest of us see it as the transfer of ideas and methodologies onto road cars, that evolve and adapt to the requirements of the everyday driving experience. No-one is seriously suggesting that the new high-end sports cars will be built entirely from carbon fibre to improve crash-worthiness or weight distribution, but things like ABS, underbody aerodynamics, traction control, semi-automatic gearboxes, ECUs and other electronic wizardry will almost certainly have been developed in F1 and have filtered its way down onto normal cars.

http://lifestyle.monstersandcritics.com/autos/features/article_1322957.php/Little_technology_transfer_from_Formula_1_to_ordin ary_cars - a rather balanced commentary on what does and doesn't get transferred. The comments on the Audi diesel technology is pretty interesting too.

wmcot

23rd August 2007, 07:05

do you actually believe the stuff you write :s hock:

rollo has given conclusive proof of where F1 technology influences just about every car out there and you cannot see it because it differs from your opinion?

just because a Yarris doesnt look like a modern F1 car in no way reflects on the previous F1 technology that over the years have gone to develop the Yarris.

by the way Rollo, I think there is a Porsche using ceramics.

I understand the Ferrari 599 Fiorano also has a ceramic brake option (very expensive!!!)

Flat.tyres

23rd August 2007, 10:34

I understand the Ferrari 599 Fiorano also has a ceramic brake option (very expensive!!!)

thanks :up:

mind you, if you can afford a 599, your not going to worry too much about sticking a couple of new Royal Doultons on it every few miles :)

Flat.tyres

23rd August 2007, 10:49

There are only very few high end sport cars that benefit from the F1 technology development, and even those use F1 technology from the late 90's.

Mercedes road cars, other than their next super SLR, will not benefit from this years technology for another decade. Why is that? Because it's to expensive for the moment.

So either you come with something conclusive or give me a break, will ya?

I think you are totally nuts, or you don't make a difference between F1 technology and what you get with that Yaris.

List of road cars using F1 technology:

Ferrari F50
Ferrari Enzo
McLaren Mercedes F1 GTR
McLaren Mercedes SLR
Renault Scenic F1
Renault F1 Roadster (I might be wrong with this one).

I'm not aware of any other.

it seems that everyone is giving you concrete examples that you are convienently choosing to ignore, time and time again.

what do you consider to be F1 technology because your the only person that understands where your coming from. do you mean that unless McLaren lift Lewis's lump straight out of the car and shoe horn it into the next McLaren road car then they're not using F1 technology. obviously, this is unrealistic and only a moron would suggest it.

developments made in F1 filter down into cars from disk brakes, ecu's, tyre compounds, variable timings etc right up to paddle changes, seamless gear changes, flow dynamics, alloy compounds etc.

if you cannot see it as a gradual and constant process, then let Rollo tell you exactly what on your car has been developed in F1.

even better, do something that people regulary ask you to do and that is to justify your signature. it seems that everyone you argue against supplies documented, referencable proof yet you boast it but never do.

so, as you rudely said earlier, are you nuts or talking bull?

Turkeyneck

23rd August 2007, 10:56

I believe in the mid nineties Renault made an mpv with a little F1 trickery on board

ioan

23rd August 2007, 12:25

what do you consider to be F1 technology because your the only person that understands where your coming from. do you mean that unless McLaren lift Lewis's lump straight out of the car and shoe horn it into the next McLaren road car then they're not using F1 technology. obviously, this is unrealistic and only a moron would suggest it.

You might want to reconsider the choice of your words before expecting a serious answer! :rolleyes:

ioan

23rd August 2007, 12:28

I believe in the mid nineties Renault made an mpv with a little F1 trickery on board

That's the Espace F1, never made it to production as a road car though.

ioan

23rd August 2007, 12:34

Flat.tyres

23rd August 2007, 13:02

You might want to reconsider the choice of your words before expecting a serious answer! :rolleyes:

why? i wasn't calling you a moron and didn't suggest that your definition was the one I posted. I merely asked you for what your definition of F1 technology being used actually was as a lot of people are struggling to understand where you are coming from.

thats a resonable request isn't it that deserves a serious answer? its not like I said your views are bullsh!t or anything like you said of Arrow's post :)

so, please, pretty please ioan, tell us what your definition is.

is that OK?

Rollo

24th August 2007, 00:47

Ford Sierra with 1.6 diesel engine (previous owner installed it).

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED :D

1. Both the 1.6 Petrol and Diesels had Hemispherical head combustion chambers. There are two claimaints to this: Peugeot L76 of 1912 and the Alfa Romeo GP car of 1914.

2. The Sierra actually used what's known as a Chapman Strut suspension which was first seen on the Lotus 12 in 1958. There is a wee difference between Chapman and MacPherson Struts, and Ford almost exclusive apply the former to their front wheel drive cars.

3. The Limited Slip Diff was commissioned by Ferdy Porsche and saw it's very first use in the Auto Union AP-Wagen in 1935 (Monza??)

4. In internal documents Ford called the spoiler and the whale tail the "Aeroback". The hatchback had a cD of just 0.34. Although full-scale wind tunnels had been used as early as 1934, the very first car that was put in a wind-tunnel was the Ferrari 156; hence the split shark nose.

5. As already stated disc brakes first made their appearance on a Maserati 250F in 1950. Dunlop had developed them and they found their way onto Jaguars 3 years later - ergo F1 technology.

6. I should also point out that whilst Ford themselves didn't originally plan the DFV, Mike Costin changed the shape of the valve stems to go in it. When Ford bought back the designs in 1968, they took just under 3 years to apply that knowledge across the board. Basically this has to do with the way that the valve tapers into the recess in the top of the head.

7. Although Michelin had practically invented the radial tyre in 1946, they never applied them to motor cars but instead sold them to airlines. Pirelli had an exclusive contract with Alfa Romeo to supply radial tyres in 1950, and the Alfa Romeo 158 was the very first car to use them. Suffice to say it would still be ten years before the manufacturers trusted them enough to put on road cars (the 1960s Ford Falcon?)

8. This is going to sound bloody ridiculous but the first use of a rear view mirror on a car was on the winner of the 1911 Indianapolis 500 (which eventually was a GP), I kid thee not. Was that Ray Harroun's Marmon?

9. Unless I'm mistaken the Ford Sierra was fitted with a Ford Type 9 gearbox, either that or the MT75. The type 9 has an interesting story in itself - it was developed out of the Hewland FT200 which itself when mated with the DG300 diff was the standard attachment to a DFV; actually I'm pretty sure that Hewland will still sell you a Type 9 if you ask for one.

10. It goes without saying that things like engine oils, transmission fluids, shock absorbers are constantly being developed in F1. Although it would be impossible for me to guess what the exact specs are on your car, they most likely have been in or learnt something from an affliate in F1 at some stage.

Oh and I should point out at this point that only diesel engines offered for the Sierra were the 2.3L and the 1800. And as an aside, the leader of the design team for the Ford Sierra was Robert Lutz who is now Chairman of GM North America - Hmm.

wmcot

24th August 2007, 08:25

thanks :up:

mind you, if you can afford a 599, your not going to worry too much about sticking a couple of new Royal Doultons on it every few miles :)

I can't even afford the brakes!!! :(

ioan

24th August 2007, 09:30

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED :D

Let's see:

1. Both the 1.6 Petrol and Diesels had Hemispherical head combustion chambers. There are two claimaints to this: Peugeot L76 of 1912 and the Alfa Romeo GP car of 1914.

There was no F1 before WWII. Sorry.

2. The Sierra actually used what's known as a Chapman Strut suspension which was first seen on the Lotus 12 in 1958. There is a wee difference between Chapman and MacPherson Struts, and Ford almost exclusive apply the former to their front wheel drive cars.

I don't know about the Chapman strut used by Ford on their Front wheel drive cars but this Sierra is for sure a rear wheel drive car. Sorry again.

3. The Limited Slip Diff was commissioned by Ferdy Porsche and saw it's very first use in the Auto Union AP-Wagen in 1935 (Monza??)

1935? That's no F1 again. And even if it was, for a 1935 technology that made it into an 80's car that's not called technology transfer.

4. In internal documents Ford called the spoiler and the whale tail the "Aeroback". The hatchback had a cD of just 0.34. Although full-scale wind tunnels had been used as early as 1934, the very first car that was put in a wind-tunnel was the Ferrari 156; hence the split shark nose.

There's no spoiler and definitely it's no hatchback.

5. As already stated disc brakes first made their appearance on a Maserati 250F in 1950. Dunlop had developed them and they found their way onto Jaguars 3 years later - ergo F1 technology.

They still only get used on my front wheels! After 40+ years. Luckily Mercedes has cars where they have 4 disc brakes! :p :

6. I should also point out that whilst Ford themselves didn't originally plan the DFV, Mike Costin changed the shape of the valve stems to go in it. When Ford bought back the designs in 1968, they took just under 3 years to apply that knowledge across the board. Basically this has to do with the way that the valve tapers into the recess in the top of the head.

And where is the technology transfer to my Sierra? :rolleyes:

7. Although Michelin had practically invented the radial tyre in 1946, they never applied them to motor cars but instead sold them to airlines. Pirelli had an exclusive contract with Alfa Romeo to supply radial tyres in 1950, and the Alfa Romeo 158 was the very first car to use them. Suffice to say it would still be ten years before the manufacturers trusted them enough to put on road cars (the 1960s Ford Falcon?)

We have radial tires on pedal bikes too, and I doubt it is because of F1 technology transfer.

8. This is going to sound bloody ridiculous but the first use of a rear view mirror on a car was on the winner of the 1911 Indianapolis 500 (which eventually was a GP), I kid thee not. Was that Ray Harroun's Marmon?

It isn't that ridiculous at all, maybe the driver had a sore neck?!

9. Unless I'm mistaken the Ford Sierra was fitted with a Ford Type 9 gearbox, either that or the MT75. The type 9 has an interesting story in itself - it was developed out of the Hewland FT200 which itself when mated with the DG300 diff was the standard attachment to a DFV; actually I'm pretty sure that Hewland will still sell you a Type 9 if you ask for one.

Have no idea about the gearbox' type, but for sure it isn't the right one for the diesel engine.
On the other hand I doubt that they would put an F1 developed gearbox into a road car that goes hundreds of thousands of kms.

10. It goes without saying that things like engine oils, transmission fluids, shock absorbers are constantly being developed in F1. Although it would be impossible for me to guess what the exact specs are on your car, they most likely have been in or learnt something from an affliate in F1 at some stage.

It might be, or maybe not. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is for sure some transfer technology from F1.
Luckily for you I didn't take up the challenge of repairing an old Volga my father once offered to buy me. There is more technology transfer from a tank in it than anything else! :D

Oh and I should point out at this point that only diesel engines offered for the Sierra were the 2.3L and the 1800. And as an aside, the leader of the design team for the Ford Sierra was Robert Lutz who is now Chairman of GM North America - Hmm.

Well, it was originally and 1.8 engine but someone decided to change into an 1.6 diesel. :(
It still goes up to 150 kmh but it needs lots of time.

As for the your 10 technology transfers from F1 to my car, honestly I can hardly award you 3 or 4 of them.

Technology transfer from F1 to road cars isn't as obvious and easy to do as the starter of this thread made it look. It will take about a decade for F1 technology from this years Mclaren Mercedes F1 cars to get on Mercedes road cars and in the best case it will be on high end road cars only. And it will be mostly only the idea and not the technology that will be used.

ArrowsFA1

24th August 2007, 09:51

There was no F1 before WWII.
In simple terms F1 is just another term for Grand Prix racing and Grand Prix racing dates back to 1894.

leopard

24th August 2007, 09:53

I can't even afford the brakes!!! :(

Was the brake's pedal placed deep down that makes difficult to afford? :)

ioan

24th August 2007, 11:44

In simple terms F1 is just another term for Grand Prix racing and Grand Prix racing dates back to 1894.

And the cars used were the same or almost the same with the road cars for most of the time.

Andrewmcm

24th August 2007, 12:29

...snip....
On the other hand I doubt that they would put an F1 developed gearbox into a road car that goes hundreds of thousands of kms.

...snip...

Technology transfer from F1 to road cars isn't as obvious and easy to do as the starter of this thread made it look. It will take about a decade for F1 technology from this years Mclaren Mercedes F1 cars to get on Mercedes road cars and in the best case it will be on high end road cars only. And it will be mostly only the idea and not the technology that will be used.

Nice contradiction. I'll leave it for you to work out what I mean, as I'm going to give up explaining myself from now on, I really have better things to do with my time. I'll refer you to my previous posts in this thread, as they say what I would write here.

ioan

24th August 2007, 12:44

Nice contradiction. I'll leave it for you to work out what I mean, as I'm going to give up explaining myself from now on, I really have better things to do with my time. I'll refer you to my previous posts in this thread, as they say what I would write here.

I fail to see the contradiction in what you quoted! I suppose therefore that there is no contradiction, other than in your own logics.

ShiftingGears

24th August 2007, 13:00

Let's see:

There was no F1 before WWII. Sorry.

I don't know about the Chapman strut used by Ford on their Front wheel drive cars but this Sierra is for sure a rear wheel drive car. Sorry again.

1935? That's no F1 again. And even if it was, for a 1935 technology that made it into an 80's car that's not called technology transfer.

There's no spoiler and definitely it's no hatchback.

They still only get used on my front wheels! After 40+ years. Luckily Mercedes has cars where they have 4 disc brakes! :p :

And where is the technology transfer to my Sierra? :rolleyes:

We have radial tires on pedal bikes too, and I doubt it is because of F1 technology transfer.

It isn't that ridiculous at all, maybe the driver had a sore neck?!

Have no idea about the gearbox' type, but for sure it isn't the right one for the diesel engine.
On the other hand I doubt that they would put an F1 developed gearbox into a road car that goes hundreds of thousands of kms.

It might be, or maybe not. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is for sure some transfer technology from F1.
Luckily for you I didn't take up the challenge of repairing an old Volga my father once offered to buy me. There is more technology transfer from a tank in it than anything else! :D

Well, it was originally and 1.8 engine but someone decided to change into an 1.6 diesel. :(
It still goes up to 150 kmh but it needs lots of time.

As for the your 10 technology transfers from F1 to my car, honestly I can hardly award you 3 or 4 of them.

Technology transfer from F1 to road cars isn't as obvious and easy to do as the starter of this thread made it look. It will take about a decade for F1 technology from this years Mclaren Mercedes F1 cars to get on Mercedes road cars and in the best case it will be on high end road cars only. And it will be mostly only the idea and not the technology that will be used.

Innovations in grand prix racing > filters through to road car. That looks like technology transfer to me...

Flat.tyres

24th August 2007, 13:25

I fail to see the contradiction in what you quoted! I suppose therefore that there is no contradiction, other than in your own logics.

please see the above post if you need further clarification.

24th August 2007, 13:40

Innovations in grand prix racing > filters through to road car. That looks like technology transfer to me...

The top-end Mercedes road cars use 'flipper' gear paddles.

These were originally found in the 1989 Ferrari 639 Formula One car (or the 1998 648 Muletta test car, if we are being pedantic).

So there we have it. Conclusive proof that Mercedes copied a Ferrari technology.

Personally, I think this should be drawn to the attention of the FIA.

Anyone know the email address of a chief designer? I'd tell the FIA straight but don't want my name mentioned.

Flat.tyres

24th August 2007, 13:58

The top-end Mercedes road cars use 'flipper' gear paddles.

These were originally found in the 1989 Ferrari 639 Formula One car (or the 1998 648 Muletta test car, if we are being pedantic).

So there we have it. Conclusive proof that Mercedes copied a Ferrari technology.

Personally, I think this should be drawn to the attention of the FIA.

Anyone know the email address of a chief designer? I'd tell the FIA straight but don't want my name mentioned.

but was it illegal and can you prove it?

24th August 2007, 14:07

but was it illegal and can you prove it?

Well, Mrs Norberta Haug did pop into a photocopying shop in August 1989 and asked a bloke who once met my sisters best mates boyfriends cousin on a bus to copy it but under no circumstances phone John Barnard about it.

At least he thinks it was her, but it could of been Jochen Neerspach.

Surely that's enough?

Flat.tyres

24th August 2007, 14:40

Well, Mrs Norberta Haug did pop into a photocopying shop in August 1989 and asked a bloke who once met my sisters best mates boyfriends cousin on a bus to copy it but under no circumstances phone John Barnard about it.

At least he thinks it was her, but it could of been Jochen Neerspach.

Surely that's enough?

sounds like a done deal to me :D

ioan

24th August 2007, 15:05

Innovations in grand prix racing > filters through to road car. That looks like technology transfer to me...

The fact that some innovation from F1 as you say "filters" through to top end road cars after a decade is in no way "technology transfer".

Technology transfer is what Ferrari did back in the 60's with the 330P series and later with the F40, F50 and the Enzo.

If you consider having disk brakes on your car a "technology transfer" from F1 than you are welcome to think so but I disagree.

wedge

24th August 2007, 16:07

How about FSI fuel injection technology developed in the Audi R8, standard on most top spec VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda engines?

Does that count as technology transfer?????

I'll get my coat........

ioan

24th August 2007, 18:17

How about FSI fuel injection technology developed in the Audi R8, standard on most top spec VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda engines?

Does that count as technology transfer?????

I'll get my coat........

Yes it does, but the R8 is no F1 racer! :p :

Andrewmcm

24th August 2007, 21:49

I fail to see the contradiction in what you quoted! I suppose therefore that there is no contradiction, other than in your own logics.

Critcising the logic of someone with a PhD in Computational Fluid Dynamics is probably not the wisest thing you'll ever do ioan.

You suggest that technology transfer does not count if it filters through after a decade. Why not? What if it is only expense keeping carbon fibre, ceramic brakes and other such items off of road cars? You can bet that if ceramic brakes cost £50 each they'd be on every road car within weeks.

Again you fail to grasp the concept of what "technology transfer" actually is. I'll tell you a little story about my PhD work which will help you understand: My PhD looked at a very fundmental form of fluid mechanics, and I discovered a new type of behaviour in a particular type of fluid flow. In and of itself, this discovery is possibly not that remarkable, but its application to chemically reacting and combusting flows means that exploiting this new discovery could lead to more efficient engines and so forth. In an analagous manner to F1, my PhD work (and subsequent future research) is similar to how F1 conducts its R&D - highly specialised with little direct application to the outside world. Once my research is taken on board by industry, then the benefits will be felt by the general public. Again, in F1 this can be seen as taking the ideas from the modern racers, developing and refining these ideas and making them useful for the wider motoring audience.

I once again point you to my previous post that states that no-one is suggesting that "technology transfer" is the direct application of modern F1 technology onto road cars. It is the use of the ideas and methodology to filter down onto road cars when its benefits are affordable to the wider public.

.

ioan

24th August 2007, 22:06

Critcising the logic of someone with a PhD in Computational Fluid Dynamics is probably not the wisest thing you'll ever do ioan.

I see your problem now.
Others might have some diplomas too, or better even, just for your info! :rolleyes:

Andrewmcm

24th August 2007, 22:26

I see your problem now.
Others might have some diplomas too, or better even, just for your info! :rolleyes:

Classic ioan, deflect a solid argument away by posting trivial nonsense aimed at offending the poster of said argument.

ioan

24th August 2007, 22:47

Classic ioan, deflect a solid argument away by posting trivial nonsense aimed at offending the poster of said argument.

:rolleyes:

race aficionado

25th August 2007, 00:16

ioan

25th August 2007, 12:02

Just to be in the McLaren topic and having a chance to bring up my fave driver, JPM, I heard today in Speed TV that Turkey, being a young course - (this is the third race) - JPM holds the record for fastest speed: 140 mph

I wonder who will brake the record this weekend - if it is broken.

:s mokin:

How could they brake a record set with an unrestricted V10 while driving cars powered by restricted v8's ?!

Not too mention the tire downgrades.

Valve Bounce

25th August 2007, 13:42

Toyota Yaris. :D

Yaris? Have I gone totally nuts?

This is just a short list of things developed in Formula One:

- Variable Valve Timing
- Engine mapping
- Use of the wind tunnel
- Brakes, tyres and oil technology
- Gearbox design
- Cylinder shape
- Traction control
- Fuel Injection
- Disc brakes even

What about all the aerodynamic knowledge? The same theory and knowledge that sculpted the Enzo's ugly hide is also used to make sure your small family hatch gets efficiency when cruising on the motorway, but is also stable at that speed.

Look at any part of any modern car and you will find that the significant majority of the components will have been shaped by motorsport in some period of their history, a lot of it from F1. OK, so stuff from the TF107 won't appear on the 2008 Corolla but it might do within ten years.

Please expand your list to include every single car sold on planet earth.

Absolutely!! I have bixenon headlights, plastic bumpers, a works tow bar which is fastened to a strong part of the chassis, wipers on my headlights, curtain air bags, fantastic stereo, seats with memory settings, heated rear window, childlock settings which lock the rear doors, lockable ski racks, remote door locks, electric windows, ...........I could go on all day.

Thank God for all the refinements on my Cross Country.

ioan

25th August 2007, 13:59

Absolutely!! I have bixenon headlights, plastic bumpers, a works tow bar which is fastened to a strong part of the chassis, wipers on my headlights, curtain air bags, fantastic stereo, seats with memory settings, heated rear window, childlock settings which lock the rear doors, lockable ski racks, remote door locks, electric windows, ...........I could go on all day.

Thank God for all the refinements on my Cross Country.

And all those were developed in F1 and than through technology transfer were used for your Cross Country, at least that's what some people may believe around here! ;)

aryan

25th August 2007, 14:33

I don't suppose you've read the technical specification of both the McLaren F1 car and the Mercedes road car in

The McLaren F1 doesn't have anything to do with Mercedes, it's got a BMW engine inside it for god's sake! It was designed by Gordon Murray and his team of around a dozen people, on paper, without any CAD software or hectic wind tunnel tests.

It's a pitty that the generation of people like Mr. Murray and Mr. Pagani seems to be a dying breed; and the soulless fast-and-furious type of super cars have taken over...

Back to Formula 1 now, I have to agree with ioan, there is so little any road company can take from their F1 know-how, aside from PR stuff of course.

aryan

25th August 2007, 14:46

So where did paddle-shift gearboxes come from then? Weren't they developed by Ferrari in the 1980s, perfected by Williams in the 1990s and are now resplendent on quite a lot of mid- to high- range cars these days? Or don't innovations count if they were developed by manufacturers other than Ferrari?

Are you reffering to the DSG-esque type of semi-auto geabox which everyone seems to associate with F1 just because the paddles are located behind the steering wheel? Sorry to break it for you; but the technology behind that (double-clutch system) has as much to do with F1, as the shiney new red ignition "Start" button on most hot hatches these days with an F1 engine.

Of course technology in the current F1 cars will filter down to road cars, thinking otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding as to how the research and development process evolves.

Thinking otherwise demonstrates the ability to think beyond Bernie market-speak.

I love F1 for what it is; a competeitive challenging motorracing event. No need for me to feel all fuzzy and warmed up when I sit in my Golf GTI to think I am using the same technology as Schumacher (replace with Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, etc.)

aryan

25th August 2007, 15:35

This is just a short list of things developed in Formula One:

- Variable Valve Timing
- Engine mapping
- Use of the wind tunnel
- Brakes, tyres and oil technology
- Gearbox design
- Cylinder shape
- Traction control
- Fuel Injection
- Disc brakes even

Let's bust some myths:
VVTI: Invented by Giovanni Torazza, a Fiat engineer in 1960 while on one week annual leave; Torazza never had any relation with any F1 team.[/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Engine Mapping: Originally devised by by the Ford Engineering Research Centre in Laindon, Essex and since then developed by The MathWorks (the company behind MATLAB). Ford, at the time of this invention had no involvement in F1. It was simply one of those things which was bound to happen with increasing computational capacity of the computers and the ability to find out engine outputs (torque, emissions) based functions whith input variables including spark, rpm, load, etc.[/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Wind Tunnel? You must be kidding here. The world of aerodynamics (with its bleeding edge in the aviation industry, not the car industry) has had effects on cars before aerodynamics became a big part in F1 (late 60s, early 70s).[/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Brakes, tyres and oil technology. I am sure these are concrete examples of technologies you've sampled here.[list:1a3thzgp]
Ceramic Disks were came upon by British engineers working in the railway industry for TGV applications in 1988.[/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Maurizio Boiocchi, Head of Pirelli R&D, on the question of if Pirelli will ever supply tyres to F1: "No, we have no plan on supplying tyres to Formula1 manufacturers simply due to minimal opportunities for technology transfer between F1 and road tyres, the dimensions currently used in F1 being unique in motorsport and a world away from road tyres."[/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Oil???? Yeah, right...[/*:m:1a3thzgp] [/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Gearbox Design: See my previous post on the similarities of your beloved paddle shift with F1 seamless gearboxes.[/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Cylinder Shape: yepp; that's a solid technological invention you've listed there. if you are referring to engine configuration, that has been under constant debate and development among engineers depuis the start of the previous century, and no holly grail has been found yet. Incidentally, F1 engines; due to their short life-span; share little configuration similarity with road card.[/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Traction Control: One of the big myths. The electronic TC (even ignorring its mechanical predecessor) was developed in 1970 by Mercedez Benz, and even GM started using it in a Buick in 1971 before F1 cars. There was technology transfer between F1 and road cars in regards to TC; but it was the other way around.[/*:m:1a3thzgp]
Fuel Injection: The patent belongs to Frederick W Lanchester of Forward Gas Engine Company in Birmingham in 1889. Commercially it has been used in diesel engines since mid 1920s. GM's Rochester division introduced the first mechanical fuel injection in petrol engines in a 1957 Chevrolet. The German industrial company Bosch developed electronic fuel injection in 1967 and licensed the technology to all major car manufacturers. No F1 connection there either.[/*:m:1a3thzgp][/list:u:1a3thzgp]I have a life, I can't go on forever. I hope whoever gave you that PhD made you double check your sources before putting it in your thesis and also taught you that marketing hype (Mosly and Bernie-speak) should not be considered as scientific research.

ioan

25th August 2007, 16:25

I knew someone who knows what he talks will agree with me sooner or later. :)
Thanks for you input aryan. :up:

race aficionado

25th August 2007, 17:53

How could they brake a record set with an unrestricted V10 while driving cars powered by restricted v8's ?!

Not too mention the tire downgrades.

Yes indeed ioan. But I got a chance to plug my fave racers name in our F1 forum again. And you can relate to that, everytime you manage to bring your fave driver into a thread, I'm sure it brings a smile to your face.

:s mokin:

ioan

25th August 2007, 20:40

Yes indeed ioan. But I got a chance to plug my fave racers name in our F1 forum again. And you can relate to that, everytime you manage to bring your fave driver into a thread, I'm sure it brings a smile to your face.

:s mokin:

You bet! ;)

jso1985

25th August 2007, 21:15

And the cars used were the same or almost the same with the road cars for most of the time.

I doubt you can call the Silver Arrows something "almost like a road car"

ioan

25th August 2007, 23:19

I doubt you can call the Silver Arrows something "almost like a road car"

That's why I said "most of the time"! :p :

Valve Bounce

26th August 2007, 00:31

Critcising the logic of someone with a PhD in Computational Fluid Dynamics is probably not the wisest thing you'll ever do ioan.

You suggest that technology transfer does not count if it filters through after a decade. Why not? What if it is only expense keeping carbon fibre, ceramic brakes and other such items off of road cars? You can bet that if ceramic brakes cost £50 each they'd be on every road car within weeks.

Again you fail to grasp the concept of what "technology transfer" actually is. I'll tell you a little story about my PhD work which will help you understand: My PhD looked at a very fundmental form of fluid mechanics, and I discovered a new type of behaviour in a particular type of fluid flow. In and of itself, this discovery is possibly not that remarkable, but its application to chemically reacting and combusting flows means that exploiting this new discovery could lead to more efficient engines and so forth. In an analagous manner to F1, my PhD work (and subsequent future research) is similar to how F1 conducts its R&D - highly specialised with little direct application to the outside world. Once my research is taken on board by industry, then the benefits will be felt by the general public. Again, in F1 this can be seen as taking the ideas from the modern racers, developing and refining these ideas and making them useful for the wider motoring audience.

I once again point you to my previous post that states that no-one is suggesting that "technology transfer" is the direct application of modern F1 technology onto road cars. It is the use of the ideas and methodology to filter down onto road cars when its benefits are affordable to the wider public.

.

OK, before I start, let me make it clear that I only got a Distinction in Fluid Mechanics, never venturing into the realms of a PhD. :(

Now let us suppose, just suppose, that God with infinite foresight saw the greediness of Bernie and madness of Max and was so teed off that he banned/erased everything that had to do with F1 so that F1 never existed beyond 1960. OK?
Now with the recent rapid development of transistor and microchip technology and the associated rapid advancement of computer technology, would the likes of Trax and ABS not have been invented for driving on ice and snow and slippery conditions? How would all this have impacted on the development of my Volvo Cross Country? :(
Would we say:
1. Very significant
2. Moderately significant, or
3. Not at all?

The development if ideas in the motor industry has been driven by improving cars, petrol economy, and better power and smoother engines. Would all this be ignored but for the benefits derived from F1?

And I would refer to this post: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=332759
before anyone made wide sweeping claims about the marvellous benefits flowing through to our road cars from the R&D in F1.

Great post, Aryan!! :up:

Valve Bounce

27th August 2007, 09:50

Let's bust some myths:
VVTI: Invented by Giovanni Torazza, a Fiat engineer in 1960 while on one week annual leave; Torazza never had any relation with any F1 team.[/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Engine Mapping: Originally devised by by the Ford Engineering Research Centre in Laindon, Essex and since then developed by The MathWorks (the company behind MATLAB). Ford, at the time of this invention had no involvement in F1. It was simply one of those things which was bound to happen with increasing computational capacity of the computers and the ability to find out engine outputs (torque, emissions) based functions whith input variables including spark, rpm, load, etc.[/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Wind Tunnel? You must be kidding here. The world of aerodynamics (with its bleeding edge in the aviation industry, not the car industry) has had effects on cars before aerodynamics became a big part in F1 (late 60s, early 70s).[/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Brakes, tyres and oil technology. I am sure these are concrete examples of technologies you've sampled here.[list:cmknbzw6]
Ceramic Disks were came upon by British engineers working in the railway industry for TGV applications in 1988.[/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Maurizio Boiocchi, Head of Pirelli R&D, on the question of if Pirelli will ever supply tyres to F1: "No, we have no plan on supplying tyres to Formula1 manufacturers simply due to minimal opportunities for technology transfer between F1 and road tyres, the dimensions currently used in F1 being unique in motorsport and a world away from road tyres."[/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Oil???? Yeah, right...[/*:m:cmknbzw6] [/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Gearbox Design: See my previous post on the similarities of your beloved paddle shift with F1 seamless gearboxes.[/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Cylinder Shape: yepp; that's a solid technological invention you've listed there. if you are referring to engine configuration, that has been under constant debate and development among engineers depuis the start of the previous century, and no holly grail has been found yet. Incidentally, F1 engines; due to their short life-span; share little configuration similarity with road card.[/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Traction Control: One of the big myths. The electronic TC (even ignorring its mechanical predecessor) was developed in 1970 by Mercedez Benz, and even GM started using it in a Buick in 1971 before F1 cars. There was technology transfer between F1 and road cars in regards to TC; but it was the other way around.[/*:m:cmknbzw6]
Fuel Injection: The patent belongs to Frederick W Lanchester of Forward Gas Engine Company in Birmingham in 1889. Commercially it has been used in diesel engines since mid 1920s. GM's Rochester division introduced the first mechanical fuel injection in petrol engines in a 1957 Chevrolet. The German industrial company Bosch developed electronic fuel injection in 1967 and licensed the technology to all major car manufacturers. No F1 connection there either.[/*:m:cmknbzw6][/list:u:cmknbzw6]I have a life, I can't go on forever. I hope whoever gave you that PhD made you double check your sources before putting it in your thesis and also taught you that marketing hype (Mosly and Bernie-speak) should not be considered as scientific research.

I note there has been no resonse to this post from Rollo et al, and I just hope that this puts to rest the pinacle theory and its derivatives to the on road cars.

ioan

27th August 2007, 11:19

I note there has been no resonse to this post from Rollo et al, and I just hope that this puts to rest the pinacle theory and its derivatives to the on road cars.

They are deeply involved into studying the Yaris and all that F1 technology Toyota used on it! :D

Valve Bounce

27th August 2007, 11:52

They are deeply involved into studying the Yaris and all that F1 technology Toyota used on it! :D

Ah!! the infinite knowledge gained in a Fluid Mechanics Doctorate.
I suppose we should refer to the poster with DR before his name in deference to his doctorate.
My better half always always asked why I never went on to do a doctorate, but I had to support a family with two children and had to leave Oz and work overseas to escape the punishing tax rates here. :(
Now big Al has kicked in, and I can't remember what I had studied. :(

Rollo

27th August 2007, 16:19

Let's bust some myths:Fuel Injection: The patent belongs to Frederick W Lanchester of Forward Gas Engine Company in Birmingham in 1889. Commercially it has been used in diesel engines since mid 1920s. GM's Rochester division introduced the first mechanical fuel injection in petrol engines in a 1957 Chevrolet. The German industrial company Bosch developed electronic fuel injection in 1967 and licensed the technology to all major car manufacturers. No F1 connection there either.

Oh really. So the W196 of 1954 doesn't count then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W196
Nor does the second variant of the MB 300SL in 1955? Bosch developed these things in conjunction with Mercedes-Benz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300SL
I think you'll find a direct link bewteen the two systems and with several months no less.

Engine Mapping: Originally devised by by the Ford Engineering Research Centre in Laindon, Essex and since then developed by The MathWorks (the company behind MATLAB). Ford, at the time of this invention had no involvement in F1. It was simply one of those things which was bound to happen with increasing computational capacity of the computers and the ability to find out engine outputs (torque, emissions) based functions whith input variables including spark, rpm, load, etc.

Er sadly no. The world's first car fitted with an ECU was the MB 500SEL of 1987. Their ECU was provided to them by a little known company called TAG... no F1 Connection there eh?

About MATLAB.
What you quote is from this:
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/statistics/staff/academic/lawrance/personal/enginema/
Again I disagree. The Ford Engineering Research Centre in Laindon, Essex was started by Mike Costin and Keith Duckworth... they didn't have anything to with F1 at all :D For the record, it's actually in Dunton not Laindon.

Andrewmcm

27th August 2007, 20:17

I note there has been no resonse to this post from Rollo et al, and I just hope that this puts to rest the pinnacle theory and its derivatives to the on road cars.

I'll be sure to put my real life on hold and check the forums more often... ;)

I'm perfectly happy to be corrected on my stance about topics, I don't like being misinformed and am glad that people come along with sufficient evidence to help to change my mind. As long as that evidence is convincing of course. I don't claim to know everything about everything - I wouldn't be an academic scientist if I did, that's for sure!

Valve Bounce

28th August 2007, 00:11

I'll be sure to put my real life on hold and check the forums more often... ;)

I'm perfectly happy to be corrected on my stance about topics, I don't like being misinformed and am glad that people come along with sufficient evidence to help to change my mind. As long as that evidence is convincing of course. I don't claim to know everything about everything - I wouldn't be an academic scientist if I did, that's for sure!

I suppose I better think twice before argueing with you because of your academic qualifications. As I said, I only got a D in Fluid Mech, and never went on to do a PhD.

However, I would ask, in general of this forum, if my Volvo Cross Country would have been a much lessor car if F1 never existed at all.

Rollo

28th August 2007, 07:08

VVTI: Invented by Giovanni Torazza, a Fiat engineer in 1960 while on one week annual leave; Torazza never had any relation with any F1 team.

Invented you say...
The first instance of variable valve timing was the Bristol Jupiter 9 aircraft engine. It's hardly useful though.

Giovanni Torazza may have invented something, but I can't find any evidence that it was used. The first production FIAT with variable valve timing was their 1995 Barchetta. Is anyone else noticing a problem here? A 35 year gestation period?
If you're claiming GM, then please show me one instance where they put it into production because I can't even find a single instance, save for their LZE which is 2005 :eek:
These two theories are like stating that Da Vinci invented the helicopter.

The first road car with VVT was the 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2L... and oooh look. They developed it in the Alfa Romeo 177 with their 12 cylinder engine.

Honda's VTEC first saw road use on their B16A engine which they put in the Civic and Integra in 1989. As far as I can determine, the Honda RA163E engine which was in the Williams FW10 had a VTEC system and the subsequent RA164E, RA165E RA166E which was also in the Lotus 99T.

Valve Bounce

28th August 2007, 07:33

Invented you say...
The first instance of variable valve timing was the Bristol Jupiter 9 aircraft engine. It's hardly useful though.

Giovanni Torazza may have invented something, but I can't find any evidence that it was used. The first production FIAT with variable valve timing was their 1995 Barchetta. Is anyone else noticing a problem here? A 35 year gestation period?
If you're claiming GM, then please show me one instance where they put it into production because I can't even find a single instance, save for their LZE which is 2005 :eek:
These two theories are like stating that Da Vinci invented the helicopter.

The first road car with VVT was the 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2L... and oooh look. They developed it in the Alfa Romeo 177 with their 12 cylinder engine.

Honda's VTEC first saw road use on their B16A engine which they put in the Civic and Integra in 1989. As far as I can determine, the Honda RA163E engine which was in the Williams FW10 had a VTEC system and the subsequent RA164E, RA165E RA166E which was also in the Lotus 99T.

I just wonder how much of all this technology would have reached passenger cars had F1 not existed ever.

I think you are making the assumption that, but for F1, a helluva lot of technology would never have reached Passenger cars, like Trax, ABS, CPU engine management, variable valve timing, and so on. I think otherwise - I do think there is a lot of R&D going on that has nothing to do with F1.

As I asked before, would my Volvo be a much lessor car if F1 never existed?

wmcot

28th August 2007, 07:43

As I asked before, would my Volvo be a much lessor car if F1 never existed?

No, it would still be a tank!! :)

(Although, in the future, you'll be able to brag about your standard McLaren ECU in your Volvo!)

Flat.tyres

28th August 2007, 10:21

I just love the way conversations develop on this forum.

Act 1: Scene 1.

Make some outlandish statement and when disputed ask for proof.

Act 1: Scene 2.

Along comes proof that disproves outlandish statement.

Act 1: Scene 3.

There is not Scene 3 because the instigator purposely ignores any evidence submitted that disproves his view.

Act 2: Scene 1.

Some other misguided individual comes along and agrees with first statement by quoting irrelevant "facts" that have no bearing whatsoever.

Act 2: Scene 2.

Instigator comes along all happy because someone agrees with him.

Act 3: Finale.

Enter, stage left, joker asking what this has to do with the price of fish and that it cant be so because of the Volvo theory of relitivity and lets change the goalposts to an impossible hypothesis involving going back in time and taking out the effect of F1 on car production.

Curtain

Valve Bounce

28th August 2007, 10:51