François Duval in Germany

[JAM]

I think the result of François Duval in Germany deserves a separeted post.

It was an absolute surprise to see a Kronos Xsara fighting for the victory.

I have some doubts if this Xsara has the same material than the others Kronos Xsara used by Stohl and Carlsson. We are talking about a car that is form 2006 and fight with the 2007 cars as it did in 2006 with the other 2006 cars.

I don't want to reduce the Duval exibition, it was amazing, but could this result be only the driver who made de difference?

[consti]

someone said it`s a 2005 car with active diffs, is this any right?

[Koz]

Still isnt it the same car the others used?
So it shouldnt matter.

[consti]

no it wasn't meant this way, i'm just curious if this is the car or not....

great driving form duval, absolutly fantastic pace he showed

[Christina]

The car was the 05 Xsara that Seb crashed into the tree at Rally Australia. It was not used for 2006 interestingly enough..

On the subject of Francois, i am very happy. Super result! i hope we see a lot more of him this year! *fingers crossed*

[A.F.F.]

Well, if we compare Duval's performance to others who haven driven Xsara this year, it's from different planet.

I'll say excellent set-up with lot's of expereince from tarmac compined to Duval's brilliant drive.

[Daniel]

I think the result of François Duval in Germany deserves a separeted post.

It was an absolute surprise to see a Kronos Xsara fighting for the victory.

I have some doubts if this Xsara has the same material than the others Kronos Xsara used by Stohl and Carlsson. We are talking about a car that is form 2006 and fight with the 2007 cars as it did in 2006 with the other 2006 cars.

I don't want to reduce the Duval exibition, it was amazing, but could this result be only the driver who made de difference?
Not really surprising at all :)

Duval has always been quick on tarmac and the Xsara has always been practically bulletproof on tarmac so he was always going to do well. Put Duval in any car on gravel and the results probably won't be so pretty though! I think Duval is a perfect example of the tarmac specialist. A role which sadly died out in the WRC when the 3rd driver rule was dumped :(

I think the WRC was far more interesting when teams brought in specialist drivers for tarmac and certain gravel events :)

[SubaruNorway]

It was used by Daniel Carlson this year. Sounds looks like the co-driver repeats the notes alot, did Stéphane Prévot do that when he was driving with him?

[SubaruNorway]

Sorry double post

[User]

Every Co did it (even Sven Smeets). I think it's part of their co-system

[Daniel]

I think the result of François Duval in Germany deserves a separeted post.

It was an absolute surprise to see a Kronos Xsara fighting for the victory.

I have some doubts if this Xsara has the same material than the others Kronos Xsara used by Stohl and Carlsson. We are talking about a car that is form 2006 and fight with the 2007 cars as it did in 2006 with the other 2006 cars.

I don't want to reduce the Duval exibition, it was amazing, but could this result be only the driver who made de difference?
Not really surprising at all :)

Duval has always been quick on tarmac and the Xsara has always been practically bulletproof on tarmac so he was always going to do well. Put Duval in any car on gravel and the results probably won't be so pretty though! I think Duval is a perfect example of the tarmac specialist. A role which sadly died out in the WRC when the 3rd driver rule was dumped :(

I think the WRC was far more interesting when teams brought in specialist drivers for tarmac and certain gravel events :)

[Daniel]

I don't want to reduce the Duval exibition, it was amazing, but could this result be only the driver who made de difference?

Just to highlight this point I'd have to disagree. Duval has always been good on tarmac no matter what. The problem is Duval doesn't have the same frame of mind as Duval and doesn't have the level of skill McRae had to be able to give it 110% on gravel and come out of the stage with a (barely) driveable car like Colin could and still set a good time.

[ste898]

Not really a suprising result because Dubal is only a tarmac driver...........only suprise for me was that he finished and did'nt bin it as usual!!!

[JAM]

When i talked about the car i mean the materaila that the cara used in Germany.

Some months ago Marc Van dalen tried an explanation to the lack of perfomance of the Xsaras compared to last year, and one possible reason was the material available to the cvars that could be inferior to the one used in 2006... maybe Citroen put the best material again available?

The Xsara is a excelent tarmac car and Duval is very fast on tarmac... but this car was almost as fast as C4 and the C4 is a 2007 car with a lot of development and the Xsara has no development since the summer of 2006. Besides all, in 2007 the Xsaras were all very slow, more slower than expectad, and now we see a car comeing as fast as the new ones.

Will all excuse me, but IMO this Xsara was better material than the other ones this year. This Xsara is doing exactly what could be expected from this car in 2007, contrary to what the Carlsson and Stohl cars.

[SubaruNorway]

He has some podiums on gravels aswell though, wasen't he the youngest who had ever been on the podium in Turkey 2003

[Daniel]

When i talked about the car i mean the materaila that the cara used in Germany.

Some months ago Marc Van dalen tried an explanation to the lack of perfomance of the Xsaras compared to last year, and one possible reason was the material available to the cvars that could be inferior to the one used in 2006... maybe Citroen put the best material again available?

The Xsara is a excelent tarmac car and Duval is very fast on tarmac... but this car was almost as fast as C4 and the C4 is a 2007 car with a lot of development and the Xsara has no development since the summer of 2006. Besides all, in 2007 the Xsaras were all very slow, more slower than expectad, and now we see a car comeing as fast as the new ones.

Will all excuse me, but IMO this Xsara was better material than the other ones this year. This Xsara is doing exactly what could be expected from this car in 2007, contrary to what the Carlsson and Stohl cars.

I certainly think there's some truth to this. Stohl was doing well in 2005 with the Xsara then but suddenly in 2007 he's way behind yet Duval is able to good results out of the car.

[consti]

Not really surprising at all :)

Duval has always been quick on tarmac and the Xsara has always been practically bulletproof on tarmac so he was always going to do well. Put Duval in any car on gravel and the results probably won't be so pretty though! I think Duval is a perfect example of the tarmac specialist. A role which sadly died out in the WRC when the 3rd driver rule was dumped :(

I think the WRC was far more interesting when teams brought in specialist drivers for tarmac and certain gravel events :)

can someone explain that third driver rule to me, subaru and ford is now using a third driver again, is this against the rules?

[Daniel]

can someone explain that third driver rule to me, subaru and ford is now using a third driver again, is this against the rules?
At one time you could enter three cars in a rally and the top 2 finishers scored points for the team. Then it was going to be that you had one driver who was to drive all the rounds and you could change who was the second driver and now they've stopped that. Unless someone is sick, gets fired or something out of the ordinary happens :) That's why Citroen paid for Duval to drive a Xsara in another team rather than having him drive a C4

[kubiczech]

He has some podiums on gravels aswell though, wasen't he the youngest who had ever been on the podium in Turkey 2003


Agreed

I think he was quite fast on gravel and he was getting faster -
.... just those errors

Sad thing about the rally today is that the stages are mostly dull one (maximum two) man show while there are superfast drivers fishing or dogwalking somewhere.

Bring back all Gigis and Dudus

[MikeD]

The car was the 05 Xsara that Seb crashed into the tree at Rally Australia. It was not used for 2006 interestingly enough..

On the subject of Francois, i am very happy. Super result! i hope we see a lot more of him this year! *fingers crossed*

He is said to be sure for Tour de Corse and Spain.

[Priorat]

Not really surprising at all :)

I think Duval is a perfect example of the tarmac specialist. A role which sadly died out in the WRC when the 3rd driver rule was dumped :(

I think the WRC was far more interesting when teams brought in specialist drivers for tarmac and certain gravel events :)

I would not be surprised to see Duval in the rest of tarmac rallys doing this role. And could be with Citroën or Ford.

[Daniel]

Agreed

I think he was quite fast on gravel and he was getting faster -
.... just those errors

Sad thing about the rally today is that the stages are mostly dull one (maximum two) man show while there are superfast drivers fishing or dogwalking somewhere.

Bring back all Gigis and Dudus
The problem is that the Gigi's and Dudu's don't actually end up scoring the points in the end. Duval was shown up king Carlosin 2005 who came in and scored points when all Duval was doing was racking up DNF's.

Galli. Why do we always hear this name around? Sure he was a flamboyant driver but flamboyance doesn't necessarily get you championships.

In 2005 Carlos drove 2 rallies and got 11 points. Gigi did 16 and got 14 points. Are you starting to get the picture here? Even Duval managed 47 points. While it's somewhat unfair to compare a Mitsu driver against a Xsara driver it still illustrates the point.

[Daniel]

I would not be surprised to see Duval in the rest of tarmac rallys doing this role. And could be with Citroën or Ford.

It's almost certain :) Citroen are merely getting Duval to drive the Xsara to lessen the amount of points Gronholm gets. I somehow doubt that Ford would get Duval in a Ford. He would merely be taking points off Gronholm in the process. Employing a specialist driver only works if you know your driver is going to be finishing in front of who you want the specialist to take points from.

[Daniel]

I do very much think that Duval and Mikko could decide this championship.

If he can get in front of Gronholm in each tarmac rally which is perfectly possible and Loeb wins each rally than Loeb will take at least 4 points more than Gronholm. Considering there are 3 more tarmac rallies left that's 12 points that Loeb potentially has in his pocket and Gronholm only has an 8 point lead. But on the other hand the same could happen on the gravel rallies with Mikko but I wouldn't bet on it because the performance difference between the C4 and Focus on gravel isn't as big as the one on tarmac :)

[Priorat]

I do very much think that Duval and Mikko could decide this championship.

If he can get in front of Gronholm in each tarmac rally which is perfectly possible and Loeb wins each rally than Loeb will take at least 4 points more than Gronholm. Considering there are 3 more tarmac rallies left that's 12 points that Loeb potentially has in his pocket and Gronholm only has an 8 point lead. But on the other hand the same could happen on the gravel rallies with Mikko but I wouldn't bet on it because the performance difference between the C4 and Focus on gravel isn't as big as the one on tarmac :)

Well, in fact Marcus was just a cow apart of beating Duval.
Where the rally is held in Catalunya, there are no cows.
There are in Corse (ask Mäkinen) but Duval could drive a Suzuki.
And don't know about Ireland (perhaps more sheep than cows).

Seriously, Sordo will be more of a danger for Marcus than Duval and don't think Loeb have to worry about Hirvonen on gravel yet.

[DonJippo]

don't think Loeb have to worry about Hirvonen on gravel yet.

Results from NORF 2007 tell something different...

[MikeD]

What Citroen must hope for - for at least one tarmac rally - is that both Sordo and Duval will get in front of Gronholm.

The gravel events can go to both Loeb and Gronholm, but I doubt that Mikko will be able to take points from Loeb in those events.

And then, of course there is the question of possible DNF's. Gronholm hasn't had a single DNF this year, and as it looks now he will most likely have to avoid that to win the title. On the other hand, if Loeb gets a DNF it's game over for him.

It for sure is a thriller season.

[Priorat]

Results from NORF 2007 tell something different...

Results from all gravel rallys but NORF 2007 says Loeb is faster

[kubiczech]

The problem is that the Gigi's and Dudu's don't actually end up scoring the points in the end.

I know what you mean and agree with you. They are (were?) not able to avoid mistakes, but the picture and drama of the rally is far more interesting with more driver able to keep top pace.

The bad thing i want to say is the sport got SO expensive, drivers have so few chances to get experience. Yes, Giggi crashes a lot, but how long Petter was crashing before his title season? and what did we all think about Mikkos season at Subaru?

[White Sauron]

Results from all gravel rallys but NORF 2007 says Loeb is faster

I wonder when people start to beleive in Mikko, even after he beat Loeb square and fair in Norway and Finalnd??

[Daniel]

I know what you mean and agree with you. They are (were?) not able to avoid mistakes, but the picture and drama of the rally is far more interesting with more driver able to keep top pace.

The bad thing i want to say is the sport got SO expensive, drivers have so few chances to get experience. Yes, Giggi crashes a lot, but how long Petter was crashing before his title season? and what did we all think about Mikkos season at Subaru?
The teams don't pay drivers to make it interesting for us.

[Priorat]

I wonder when people start to beleive in Mikko, even after he beat Loeb square and fair in Norway and Finalnd??

Mikko is clearly getting better and did great in Norway and Finland but he will need the Focus 07 to be a lot better than the C4 to beat Loeb

[White Sauron]

Mikko is clearly getting better and did great in Norway and Finland but he will need the Focus 07 to be a lot better than the C4 to beat Loeb

Well, last year Loeb was 1 minute slower in Finland due to the puncture, this time he was 2 minute slower just because the Fords were faster. Isn't it the best indicator of the Fords great pace on gravel?

By the way, talking about their taramac performance, I talked to a person who has connections within the team. The problem might be that the Focus is just difficult to drive at low speeds of tarmac rallies. Smth lik vibrations at low speed on asphalt.

[Daniel]

Well, last year Loeb was 1 minute slower in Finland due to the puncture, this time he was 2 minute slower just because the Fords were faster. Isn't it the best indicator of the Fords great pace on gravel?

By the way, talking about their taramac performance, I talked to a person who has connections within the team. The problem might be that the Focus is just difficult to drive at low speeds of tarmac rallies. Smth lik vibrations at low speed on asphalt.
Finland is different. It's one place where Finn's and the rest are about as easy to compare as apples and oranges :)

[Finni]

Finland is different. It's one place where Finn's and the rest are about as easy to compare as apples and oranges :)

But you cannot miss that last year Loeb was significantly more competitive in Finland than this time. Last year Loeb was practically parallel with Marcus. Loeb himself said after rally of Finland that Ford has done clear step up in terms of gravel pace.

Citroen had little edge on early gravel rallies but then Ford found some usefull developements. According to Christian Loriaux they improved the car already before evo 07. In Sardinia Marcus was equal with Loeb in pacewise (he dropped due to tyre-problem). In Greece Marcus outpaced Loeb. And the same in Finland. Loeb probably had some confidence issues after Sardinia's off but Loriaux comment with results hints that Ford has tighten their work after. It will be interesting to see how it goes in Nz but in the context of recent results I would be surprised if Loeb was faster than Marcus.

Duval's result was not big surprise for me. Duval is bit like tarmac specialist but more so he is Germany specialist. And the Xsara is at its best in Germany. In day 1 and 3 Duval was practically as fast as Loeb. To my knowledge those days were full of stages with hairpins. Xsara has always been excellent in hairpins. Before the Monte they said that C4 should get better in hairpins. I think that in some of Germany's stages Xsara was still just as fast as C4.

White Sauron said that his contact person inside of Ford team said that the Focus is better on fast asphalt. My impression is the same. I believe in Catalunya Marcus is challenging Seb and Dani. Duval can hardly be any challenge then. Compare last year Germany/Monte vs Catalunya. Focus might not be 100% in hairpins.

[Brother John]

Van Dalen on Pitstop TV.http://www.pitstoptv.be/

I had planned François accept itself Duval such as he is. I wanted him impose nothing, I wanted let him drive such as he it wanted, I did not want change him. Many have wanted impose him in former days of everything, but it had a wrong impact. One of the things where he does not love, immediately the press is speaks to shortly after the arrival of a class driving ride. I told him that, if he that did not want to do, that he did not have do it of me. He had to let me know only how the ride had gone. We have worked three days in faith. I knew what he was possible and I wanted release him as a young skid in a meadow. He knew that we had a good carriage for him. It has worked. I have tackled him as an artist in its own world and left him free . Saturday night I told him that he today take your quad from the garage and have fun today. Don´t care of what the outside world conclude themselves and attract nothing of what be said. We will celebrate today and as from morning we start to the continuation of the table. Much can I not yet say, but I hope that this nevertheless one and the other one put in movement at some Belgian companies. I hope that the good example of the RACB is followed. I am the federation incredibly grateful for the support. This is inconceivable. Of the has not driven that the entire year, makes the wrc leader this way nervously, places under pressure him this way that he goes in wrongly. That is unseen. I am appalling proud that we realise this as a Belgian team with a small budget. This was a fight of David against Goliath and that last has not saved it.

[Corny]

BTW; Francois has got the most stage wins on his name in this event.. Brilliant!

[Corny]

And the Xsara is at its best in Germany. In day 1 and 3 Duval was practically as fast as Loeb. To my knowledge those days were full of stages with hairpins. Xsara has always been excellent in hairpins. Before the Monte they said that C4 should get better in hairpins. I think that in some of Germany's stages Xsara was still just as fast as C4.

White Sauron said that his contact person inside of Ford team said that the Focus is better on fast asphalt. My impression is the same. I believe in Catalunya Marcus is challenging Seb and Dani. Duval can hardly be any challenge then. Compare last year Germany/Monte vs Catalunya. Focus might not be 100% in hairpins.
You make an interesting point about the hairpins Finni..
I've been to 4 stages on friday, where 3 were hairpins.
On the corners I was (the 3 hairpins), Marcus and Mikko clearly lost time on Sordo/Loeb/Duval.. Specially Duval did the hairpins so fast!

[Brother John]

Van Dalen say also that Duval has not all the things to used (?) in the car that Loeb had last year!
Citroën sport did not suport Duval with money but only with a car and parts!

[JAM]

Van Dalen say also that Duval has not all the things to used (?) in the car that Loeb had last year!
Citroën sport did not suport Duval with money but only with a car and parts!

Not all the things, but probably many more than Stohl and Carlsson had on the past events.

[DonJippo]

Not all the things, but probably many more than Stohl and Carlsson had on the past events.

Yes that would be the easy explanation...but in this case I say it's more about the driver.

[SubaruNorway]

Matthew Wilson complained that the car was realy hard to drive in hairpins something with the revs droping to low ore something

[A.F.F.]

I wonder when people start to beleive in Mikko, even after he beat Loeb square and fair in Norway and Finalnd??

Word Frodo. :up:

It's about time....

[MikeD]

Quick question.
Is Citroen allowed to let Duval drive a C4 in any of the remaining rallies?

[DonJippo]

Quick question.
Is Citroen allowed to let Duval drive a C4 in any of the remaining rallies?

Yes in all of them if they so want.

[ZequeArgentina]

Is the C4 better than the Xsara on tarmac? (I am talking of THIS Xsara, I am sure Kronos received same bits they used last year in Sebs car).

Duval was close to Seb when both run Xsara, thsi year he was even closer.

I ahve no doubt the C4 is better in gravel tahn Xsara, not so sure on tarmac.

[Helstar]

http://www.racingworld.it/rally/notizia2.php?idtitolo=4430

Pre-Ralllye Deutschland interview, Duval speaks about the car after some tests: "The car is fantastic. It's probably better than the 2005 Xsara spec".

Just to confirm that the material is top level.

For me, this result will let Duval drive the official Suzuki WRC car (at least in Corsica). He is really great in tarmac, no doubt, so he deserves it.
Btw he was nearly trashing it again, but this time he was lucky to have enough space and recover with an harmless spin. Good for him !



Galli. Why do we always hear this name around? Sure he was a flamboyant driver but flamboyance doesn't necessarily get you championships.
In 2005 Carlos drove 2 rallies and got 11 points. Gigi did 16 and got 14 points. Are you starting to get the picture here? Even Duval managed 47 points. While it's somewhat unfair to compare a Mitsu driver against a Xsara driver it still illustrates the point.
But you have forgotten Gigi in private 307 and Xsara for some of the 2006/2007 rallies. Nothing compared to the "usual" 2005 crashes (due to inexperience and also the need of overdriving the Lancer to try to be on pace with the others).

Duval remains the 2005 crash "Master" anyway (with the best car, an official Xsara !) :p

[Daniel]

http://www.racingworld.it/rally/notizia2.php?idtitolo=4430

Pre-Ralllye Deutschland interview, Duval speaks about the car after some tests: "The car is fantastic. It's probably better than the 2005 Xsara spec".

Just to confirm that the material is top level.

For me, this result will let Duval drive the official Suzuki WRC car (at least in Corsica). He is really great in tarmac, no doubt, so he deserves it.
Btw he was nearly trashing it again, but this time he was lucky to have enough space and recover with an harmless spin. Good for him !


But you have forgotten Gigi in private 307 and Xsara for some of the 2006/2007 rallies. Nothing compared to the "usual" 2005 crashes (due to inexperience and also the need of overdriving the Lancer to try to be on pace with the others).

Duval remains the 2005 crash "Master" anyway (with the best car, an official Xsara !) :p

You know my thoughts on Gigi so lets not have an argument for no reason again :p :

I think on tarmac Duval can go maximum attack without having to worry much :) On gravel different story of course :p I'd take Gigi over Duval on gravel. He'll crash at some point but at least the car won't be burnt out or totally screwed :p

[Zes]

I ahve no doubt the C4 is better in gravel tahn Xsara, not so sure on tarmac.

Is it? As mentioned earlier, Seb was almost as fast as Marcus in Finland with Xsara last year. This year he was clearly slower and lost Mikko too. Could it be so, that Xsara in good hands is actually better car than C4?

[janneppi]

Is it? As mentioned earlier, Seb was almost as fast as Marcus in Finland with Xsara last year. This year he was clearly slower and lost Mikko too. Could it be so, that Xsara in good hands is actually better car than C4?
Most likely they haven't been able to get maximum out of the C4 yet, especially in a rally like Finland it's the little things that matter.
Add to that the new Ford which seemed to be faster than the old one.

[N.O.T]

I expected Duval to be higher than the Fords due to driver skill only.....but to be honest i never expected him to fight for victory...even for a day.

Duval definately deserves a place in the WRC and i think the WRC needs him to be in a works car.

[Daniel]

Fulltime drive or just on tarmac though?

[Finni]

Duval definately deserves a place in the WRC and i think the WRC needs him to be in a works car.

Yes, definitely yes, if Germany was only rally in the championship. For instance in fast gravel rallies Duval would be nowhere near to Hirvonen and also slower than Atkinson.

[Donney]

I think Duval has shown a confidence he seemes to have lost after his Citroen times. It has been a great performance and I would certainly like to see him again in a WRC.

[DonJippo]

I expected Duval to be higher than the Fords due to driver skill only....

Yes ofcourse you did...then again someone else with mediocre knowledge of the sport might think that he had an upper hand on this surface due to his backround which was visible especially on Friday and Sunday...but this kind of thinking would mean that he is a some kind of specialist on certain conditions and surface and that ofcourse does not apply to others than Finns in Finland... :rolleyes:

[Finni]

Duval definately deserves a place in the WRC and i think the WRC needs him to be in a works car.

Yes, definitely yes, if Germany was only rally in the championship. For instance in fast gravel rallies Duval would be nowhere near to Hirvonen and also slower than Atkinson.

[jure dvorsek]

I don't belive in story's about some special material in Duval's Xsara. It is simple-he was driving 100 %, novebody (except Loeb) is capable to do this in Germany. This race is special about conditions, we here this all the time from the drivers and as somebody said, it is not to belive, that Duval would be so fast also in Spain or Corsica. Duval loves Germany, mud on the road, he knows this from his former racing days.
As Markus is unbetable in Finland, so are Seb and Duval in Germany.

[Finni]

You make an interesting point about the hairpins Finni..
I've been to 4 stages on friday, where 3 were hairpins.
On the corners I was (the 3 hairpins), Marcus and Mikko clearly lost time on Sordo/Loeb/Duval.. Specially Duval did the hairpins so fast!

Interesting notion. In finnish media Mikko Hirvonen also said he believes that Catalunya and Corsica should be better to Ford than Germany.

I remember that last year in Corsica Seb and Dani outpaced Marcus and Mikko very clearly in the section which was full of hairpins. Xsara has been always at its strongest in Germany and in Monte which are full of hairpins. Before the season Loeb was not yet comfortable with C4 in hairpins. Xsara could still be the best car through braking-hairpins-acceleration sections. I think that in fast asphalt it's not as grippy as C4 and Focus. C4 should be overally bit faster like Citroen already reported long time ago.

[Zes]

Most likely they haven't been able to get maximum out of the C4 yet, especially in a rally like Finland it's the little things that matter.
Add to that the new Ford which seemed to be faster than the old one.

I have been thinking this since Monte, where C4 was faster than Ford's, but not so much faster than Xsara was in 2006. Of course Ford had done some development too, but to me it looks like C4 is not so much better (if any), than Xsara. No matter is it gravel or tarmac.

[spudrsca]

Yes, definitely yes, if Germany was only rally in the championship. For instance in fast gravel rallies Duval would be nowhere near to Hirvonen and also slower than Atkinson.

He's better on tarmac but it's not like he's ****ty on gravel.
In Wales, last year he did many good times with the skoda especially in the second day.
Rovanpera were miles behind and you could see on tv that Duval was pushing very hard, he was coping better with the rear of the skoda moving a lot than Rovanpera.

I could also say that Petter Solberg on tarmac is the least skilled driver of the top drivers, he has a strange way to take corners on tarmac.

I think that there are four rallies where Duval is less competitive, it's Argentina, Sweden, Australia and especially Finland.

[Addicted]

Those hairpins need quite agressive driving to go fast through them, late braking and sharp steering. That is something what finns can`t learn anywhere outside these few rallies.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Guys... Duval performance proves 2 things

1. Duval has serious speed.. but
2. The fully active Xsara.. is mega quick.

I take note that Sordo, did not really shine this year, OK he had problems, but never looked like outpacing Seb.

Whereas last year, he had the same active xsara as Duval, and was able to take time from Seb.

This spec. of Xsara, is possibily the quickest car ever made for tarmac

[A.F.F.]

Interesting notion. In finnish media Mikko Hirvonen also said he believes that Catalunya and Corsica should be better to Ford than Germany.

I remember that last year in Corsica Seb and Dani outpaced Marcus and Mikko very clearly in the section which was full of hairpins. Xsara has been always at its strongest in Germany and in Monte which are full of hairpins. Before the season Loeb was not yet comfortable with C4 in hairpins. Xsara could still be the best car through braking-hairpins-acceleration sections. I think that in fast asphalt it's not as grippy as C4 and Focus. C4 should be overally bit faster like Citroen already reported long time ago.

Is it Focus which struggles in hairpins ?? Or could it be that Marcus' and Mikko's approach to hairpins is different than Loeb's and Duval's who REALLY master tarmac ?

Or could it be both ?

EDIT : sorry Addicted, didn't see your post. You kinda said what I had to say already :)

[rallyfanbelgium]

:) Duval Super.
http://rallydrivers.fotopic.net/p44237114.html

[MikeD]

In this clip you can see the difference between the tarmac specialist and the non-specialists when it comes to attacking a hairpin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjPqJnNJLJM

[Integrale]

I think that there are four rallies where Duval is less competitive, it's Argentina, Sweden, Australia and especially Finland.
I can agree with you on Sweden and Finland. But come on, he won Australia, have you all forgotten that or something?

About the 'fully active' Xsara: It was a Belgian team with a Belgian sponsor and a Belgian driver, the specs of the car haven't been upgraded by Citroën Sport. Quite the opposite, Marc Van Dalen said the Xsara they had this year hadn't got all the evolutions like the one Loeb drove last year. So please stop all the bullcrap being posted here to diminish François' brilliant drive.

Even if Citroën asked to catch up on Marcus the last day, that wouldn't make any difference that François himself had to do it with a non-factory car. Why are you all looking for excuses for the fact that Duval beat Grönholm and the likes fair and square?

Of course he deserves his seat in the WRC, in all rallies.

[Roy]

I was in Germany! Pics comes later.

Duval was realy fast! I didn't expect this. WOW! Great for him and nice to watch! :bounce:

The old Xsara faster then C4. What a drive!

[Daniel]

I can agree with you on Sweden and Finland. But come on, he won Australia, have you all forgotten that or something?

I was there and lets be honest he won merely because he knew if he didn't he had no chance of a seat next year and also of course because Marcus, Sebastien and Petter were all out.

[Finni]

Guys... Duval performance proves 2 things

1. Duval has serious speed.. but
2. The fully active Xsara.. is mega quick.

I take note that Sordo, did not really shine this year, OK he had problems, but never looked like outpacing Seb.

Whereas last year, he had the same active xsara as Duval, and was able to take time from Seb.

This spec. of Xsara, is possibily the quickest car ever made for tarmac

Sordo's car was not active last year in Germany!!! He was driving Kronos' points-scoring car beside Seb. Considering this year rally Sordo's driving was so short that it doesn't allow us to judge his pace. In the first leg he was 7.6 behind Seb and then he was equal despite his spins.

I think that Sordo would have outpaced Grönholm and Duval.

[Finni]

Is it Focus which struggles in hairpins ?? Or could it be that Marcus' and Mikko's approach to hairpins is different than Loeb's and Duval's who REALLY master tarmac ?

Or could it be both ?


Don't know. At least some suggested sources in Ford-team (White Sauron's contact) suggested that the car is not perfect in slow tarmac corners. Matthew Wilson also said the same, though don't know if Matt is reasonable source.. ;)

It should be remembered that if the cornering of Ford boys SEEMED slower or less aggressive compared to Citroen drivers it can be due to different handling qualities of cars. I personally know from karting that different cars sets different kind of limits for the driver. Afterall, I think, Marcus has done already few hairpins in his career.

If, indeed, Marcus and Mikko are not cutting hairpins aggressively/deeply enough it's very big shame for the Ford team. With good analyses and good practise every top-driver can learn the right basic-style for hairpins - altough someone may do bit more accurate.

What I have noticed is Marcus/Ford sometimes slides when he becames out of hairpin. Citroen/Loeb comes out straight.

On the gravel Loeb has traditionally accerated out of corner very straightly. Nowadays it seems that it's Grönholm who accelerates most straight way. Loeb, on the other hand, seems to be more sliding with C4 than with the Xsara. Rautiainen said that before Greece (or Sardinia) they found solution which prevented the car sliding much in corner outings. And new evo was even better in that respect. However it's partly also down to driver. In Finland I noticed that Hirvonen came out of corner much more sideways than Marcus.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Sordo's car was not active last year in Germany!!! He was driving Kronos' points-scoring car beside Seb. Considering this year rally Sordo's driving was so short that it doesn't allow us to judge his pace. In the first leg he was 7.6 behind Seb and then he was equal despite his spins.

I think that Sordo would have outpaced Grönholm and Duval.

Im not soo sure, as it was not a full manufacturer team, and he had not got a top3 finish, as was the criteria at the time, no?

[Buzz Lightyear]

Sordo's car was not active last year in Germany!!! He was driving Kronos' points-scoring car beside Seb. Considering this year rally Sordo's driving was so short that it doesn't allow us to judge his pace. In the first leg he was 7.6 behind Seb and then he was equal despite his spins.

I think that Sordo would have outpaced Grönholm and Duval.

Apologies... you are correct. This was the first event for Dani in 2nd car... ie passive diffs. My theory is in bits! :)

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=228191&FS=WRC

[swordsman]

Of course Duval had better parts than Carlsson and Stohl. Think about this:

* Citroen has been criticised by both Carlsson, Stohl and van Dalen that they has not lived up to the promises from before the season that Kronos would get fully 2006-spec cars (same as Loeb won the champ with).
* Citroen has much to gain from Duval getting podiums and putting Gronholm+Hirvonen as far away from the top as possible - and Duval has the possibility to really be there as a tarmac specialist
* Duval has good connections in the Citroen Sport top and is also french-speaking which is always good with a french team

So what do they do? Of course they give Duval the best things they have, because:
* They get the chance to put Grönholm and Hirvonen down in the standings
* They can answer the criticism by saying "look at Duval! Carlsson and Stohl is just too slow!"

I think it's quite obvious. I know (safe sources) that both Carlsson and Stohl has been really mad at Citroen as well as the team has. They have NOT had the latest parts, as they were promised. The moment was excellent for Citroen to fight back! :)

Also, I heard from a friend that had talked to Garde's mechanics. They said (in Swedish but with wide finnish accent):
"Now we reeeeally have good parts. Almost as good as Duval and he has eeeeverythiing." (quite funny, at least for a swede that can imagine how it would sound)

Well, that's my point of view. But as a finish:
No one can take away that Duval did a hell of a rally, given that he had been away for so long time! My point in the post is just that we can't compare it at all to Stohl or Carlsson...


(Most annoying must be to Stohl. The only driver really paying a full season, which means muuuch money to Citroen, and also the driver getting the worst treatment and parts. Not really beautiful business from Citroen there!)

[DonJippo]

Also, I heard from a friend that had talked to Garde's mechanics. They said (in Swedish but with wide finnish accent):
"Now we reeeeally have good parts. Almost as good as Duval and he has eeeeverythiing." (quite funny, at least for a swede that can imagine how it would sound)

I was not aware Astra team has Finnish mechanics, well you learn something new every day.

[N.O.T]

to answer my finnish friends...

When i said driving skill i forgot to add on tarmac...i don;t consider Duval to be better than the ford kids on gravel.

Also about the fact that we need him in WRC i think his gravel abilities could improve....i think he could be on par with sordo to say the least and given the fact he has winning pace on tarmac i see no reason why we don't want him in WRC....was hirvonen or latvala fast on tarmac from day zero ??

[A.F.F.]

Gee... I didn't know you have finnish friends ;)

[Addicted]

[quote="swordsman"]Of course Duval had better parts than Carlsson and Stohl. Think about this:

* Duval has good connections in the Citroen Sport top and is also french-speaking which is always good with a french team

Is he really in so good connections with Citroen?
- He was banned for two rallies in 2005
- didn`t get any contract for 2006 with Citroen, instead they took Sordo, total rookie to replace him.

[swordsman]

I was not aware Astra team has Finnish mechanics, well you learn something new every day.

Actually I didn't know either... But isn't it quite possible he brought some of his own mechanics to work/learn in the team? I know PG Andersson have bought swedish mechanics to WRC rounds for example, sounds possible that Garde has done that too.

[swordsman]

Of course Duval had better parts than Carlsson and Stohl. Think about this:

* Duval has good connections in the Citroen Sport top and is also french-speaking which is always good with a french team

Is he really in so good connections with Citroen?
- He was banned for two rallies in 2005
- didn`t get any contract for 2006 with Citroen, instead they took Sordo, total rookie to replace him.

From what I've heard he knows (quite well) the engineer/whatever-he-is that decides what parts to give the semi-works drivers at Citroen. Don't know if it's correct, but that's what I've heard :)

[A.F.F.]

You have heard awfully lot swordsman. ;)

[swordsman]

You have heard awfully lot swordsman. ;)

That's because I'm a member of the new Swedish Rally Mafia. We don't even consider you finns as rivals. You are not even on the level of prospects for our mafia :)

[L5->R5/CR]

I can agree with you on Sweden and Finland. But come on, he won Australia, have you all forgotten that or something?

About the 'fully active' Xsara: It was a Belgian team with a Belgian sponsor and a Belgian driver, the specs of the car haven't been upgraded by Citroën Sport. Quite the opposite, Marc Van Dalen said the Xsara they had this year hadn't got all the evolutions like the one Loeb drove last year. So please stop all the bullcrap being posted here to diminish François' brilliant drive.

Even if Citroën asked to catch up on Marcus the last day, that wouldn't make any difference that François himself had to do it with a non-factory car. Why are you all looking for excuses for the fact that Duval beat Grönholm and the likes fair and square?

Of course he deserves his seat in the WRC, in all rallies.



It also stands to reason that Citroen now has more incentive to make sure the Kronos cars are as good as they can be.

Earlier in the season they didn't want Kronos entries taking away points from Dani. Now that they are behind in both championships its more important to take points away from Ford and their drivers than preserve the opportunity to score maximum points.

I have no doubt that Citroen is more willing to send the top specification parts and support drivers with legitimate shots at taking points from Ford (the makes championship is drifting out of reach but Sebastien can win the drivers still, 4 times drivers champion with the first or second place in the makes championship would be great press).

Duval is there to take points from other drivers. He will have the best opportunity to do that otherwise there is no point for Citroen to make sure he is there...

[ZequeArgentina]

Stohl said it after August break, the car in Finland was already good, and the same for Germany, just that he got some other troubles, not lack of speed.

For me it is clear that situation is not the same, even Van Dalen stopped criticism just before Finland, when they got the speed back.

[Singulus]

Duval's performance in Germany was nothing but expected. It's in the statistics - Duval has a solid record of two second places in Germany, which for such young driver is quite respectable, whether or not someone will "tag" him with "tarmac specialist" or something like that.
I think that Duval is the combination of a extremely talented driver with a lot of bad luck...of course, not everything is a bad luck, but the people quite easily forget the fact that Duval is the youngest driver with a podium finish and one of the youngest with a victory.

About "specialization" - every driver start with some specialization, which he will have to overcome with time, hard work and sweat in order to become a world champion...at least in recent years we witness just that - a driver enters the series, with some "specialization" and in a couple of years it is almost evident whether the driver development will leads to a championship material or not...the specialist becomes generalist with specialization...Loeb was tarmac specialists, who in 2-3 years becomes almost on par with the "gravel benchmarks" Gronholm and Solberg...almost the same with Gronholm - recently he becomes quite fast on tarmac, because he need to collect points from everywhere - not anymore specialists in the third factory car that prevents the competition to escape with extra points in some specialized round.

Whether or not Duval is championship material - it depends, and the future will show...I personally think that he along with Hirvonen and Sordo are clearly the best 3 of the rest, the guys are still quite young, and a lot of development will take place - for example, Duval is quite fast, even on gravel, but inconsistent, Sordo for sure will learn how to drive fast on gravel, he already shows quite good times for his limited experience, Hirvonen already has the reliability and the speed...

[jacko]

Duval's performance in Germany was nothing but expected. It's in the statistics - Duval has a solid record of two second places in Germany, which for such young driver is quite respectable, whether or not someone will "tag" him with "tarmac specialist" or something like that.
I think that Duval is the combination of a extremely talented driver with a lot of bad luck...of course, not everything is a bad luck, but the people quite easily forget the fact that Duval is the youngest driver with a podium finish and one of the youngest with a victory.

About "specialization" - every driver start with some specialization, which he will have to overcome with time, hard work and sweat in order to become a world champion...at least in recent years we witness just that - a driver enters the series, with some "specialization" and in a couple of years it is almost evident whether the driver development will leads to a championship material or not...the specialist becomes generalist with specialization...Loeb was tarmac specialists, who in 2-3 years becomes almost on par with the "gravel benchmarks" Gronholm and Solberg...almost the same with Gronholm - recently he becomes quite fast on tarmac, because he need to collect points from everywhere - not anymore specialists in the third factory car that prevents the competition to escape with extra points in some specialized round.

Whether or not Duval is championship material - it depends, and the future will show...I personally think that he along with Hirvonen and Sordo are clearly the best 3 of the rest, the guys are still quite young, and a lot of development will take place - for example, Duval is quite fast, even on gravel, but inconsistent, Sordo for sure will learn how to drive fast on gravel, he already shows quite good times for his limited experience, Hirvonen already has the reliability and the speed...

well said, think that Duval is even faster than Hirvonen, Atkinson and Sordo. But consistent yes.. well it's better to crash at maximum speed (as he showed in the past) so you learn faster your and your car's limit's. Really think he's the man to replace Gronholm after he retires, some name Latvala but he's still too far away to play with the big boys..
Go Duval !!

[Finni]

Bump!

Funny thread. Mikko and Marcus can't drive on asphalt and Dudu is hero with inferior Xsara.

This years Germany gives some more perspective.

[spudrsca]

Bump!

Funny thread. Mikko and Marcus can't drive on asphalt and Dudu is hero with inferior Xsara.

This years Germany gives some more perspective.

I agree but you can't compare, last year he had a car that he knew quite well and with the set-up optimized for his driving style.
And on the last day he pushed like a madman because he had to be in front of Grönholm at all costs.

I have an article in a newspaper after the 1 day test with the Ford and even if he was quite impressive he was not very satisfied because he said that he must find the right set-up as he has a completely different driving style on tarmac than Hirvonen and Latvala, as he is left-foot breaking much more than the Finns on Tarmac.