Career Progression - the Brookes/Ellison Effect

[patnicholls]

At this time of year there's a lot of chat on the Rumour Mill thread about what's happening next year - who's going where and all. Some of it turns out to be totally true, some of it happens a year later than was rumoured (like Max going to WSB), and much of it turns out to be complete rubbish and is swept under the carpet as quickly as possible.


Understandably a lot of rumours centre around young up-and-comers being promoted up the ranks very quickly, and this hardly ever turns out to be true. It's understandable because we all want to see the talent come through and progress – watching the same guys hold the same seats every year would clearly be boring and would render the lower series pointless. And it is disappointing to see someone hogging a seat who should be replaced by fresher blood who might do better – take a look at some of the guys over in F1 who are taking a grid slot and little else despite years in the sport.


There are all kinds of reasons why things are a little more cautious than what we often hope for – having a 'name' driver/rider can boost your brand compared with an unknown, the risk of someone lacking in experience, canny contract negotiations by the guy already in the seat, sponsor favouritism (the so-called 'Checa Effect'), etc.


Another reason is the point of this thread, and it's to do with the career development of young riders and taking the right steps and risks at the right time particularly in terms of the world stage. I call it the Brookes-Ellison effect, after Josh Brookes and James Ellison.


Josh Brookes' two years in World Supersport and Superbikes make interesting reading. He came to most people outside Australia's prominence by winning the Philip Island WSS round as a wildcard in 2004, and then backed it up taking the Aussie domestic Superbike and Supersport titles a year later. So far, so good – certainly enough to get onto the world scene somewhere. Sure enough, he was picked up by Caracchi to run their Ducati in WSS in 2006. He took 6th at PI but things didn't go well overall, and he departed fairly early in the season to step up to WSB with Bertocchi Kawasaki. Again this wasn't a good move – he only scored a couple of points. The team acquired new backers and Hondas for this year to become the Alto Evolution team, and to be fair he's had some promising runs although in midfield mostly. Again he's departed [following the team woes] and is back to WSS with Stiggy Honda which has only left him with five races in total to make an impression to find something for 2008 – a big ask. It's fair to say that his undeniable talent is in danger of being snuffed out.


James Ellison is another guy who's had some interesting moves through various series. He's won the European Superstock Championship (in 2000 and 2001, I believe) before taking the World Endurance title in 2003 after a year in WSS. World Endurance isn't usually seen as a route upward in short-format racing, so James was off back to Britain in 2004. He competed in the BSB Cup class – that's for year-old machinery running within the main race – and took the title as well as 11th overall in the standings. At the end of that season the WCM MotoGP team gave him a run out and signed him for 2005 where he got a few points. He then got the call from Tech3 for 2006, and we know how that turned out. He now races mid-pack in AMA Superbikes for Corona Honda.


The point is that Josh and James are two amongst many guys who could be in a better position than where they are because of the progression choices they've made. With the best will in the world, probably the best Josh can hope for next year is to stay with Stiggy and try and get a full season under his belt, which will most likely be quite successful. I would be amazed if he got a Ten Kate chance, simply because he's not stuck somewhere for a full year in Worlds and so his name barely registers on the standings. James grabbed at two MotoGP chances which came his way and have now left him over in the States and not with a top team after they didn't work out – in an alternate version of events he could be a pretty successful guy in World Superbikes right now (riding as a wildcard in 2004, he took 5th at Brands in WSB on a year-old Yamaha in fact). I've maligned James Ellison as much as anyone but it could genuinely have been possible – James Toseland wasn't stellar until 2002, for example.

I make no apologies for focusing on mainly Brits in this thread, simply because they and BSB are more familiar to me. The same things apply to a lot of riders.

Two examples where the opposite is true – and guys have made fairly good decisions – are Neil Hodgson and Shakey Byrne. Neil took the BSB title in 2000 with GSE, stepped up to WSB with them and then went to the factory Ducati team and took the title with them in 2003. His Superbike credentials are not in doubt. He then had a duff season in MotoGP with D'Antin and went to the States which went OK considering the Duke wasn't a match for the Suzukis or Hondas – and he beat both Bostroms on home soil. Now he's without a ride but this is where those years 2000-3 come in – because he's got a steady string of seasons and two titles he can still negotiate for top rides. James Ellison by comparison, jumped at a MotoGP chance too soon that didn't yield anything – so the last success people will see on his CV is the BSB privateer Cup. Now a successful (top 5-ish) season or two in full BSB [which he could have had] instead of going to MotoGP straight away is starting to look like it would have been a good idea. Shakey won the 2003 BSB title before moving to MotoGP to ride the ApriliBeast and then the ill-fated KR-KTM. Again, they didn't work out but the BSB title in the bag means he'll always be able to get back on a top BSB bike somewhere. You can't help but the Joshes and James Ellisons of this world could have got further on with a little more patience.


There's a parallel to be drawn with F1 racing and some of the promotions from lower series there – Nico Rosberg, Heikki Kovalainen and Lewis Hamilton all fully earnt their spurs in GP2, justifying their promotion up to top F1 seats. Some guys we've seen in the past have been plucked by F1 skipping several stage of the ladder, and as a result if it doesn't work you're a little lost for where to go. If Kimi Raikkonen (plucked from British Formula Renault to F1 – the equivalent of going from the British 125cc Champs to full MotoGP in one step) had turned out to be rubbish, he'd really be struggling.

So, I guess the point is – the ladder series are there for good reason. Moving up the ranks is important but it's important to do it in the correct way and at the right time – sometimes a sudden move can work but often putting in the hard graft gradually will work out better. Getting too eager can blow things if it doesn't work out. So don't be too eager to grab that MotoGP opportunity unless the time's really right. :)

[Corny]

way too much to read : P

[ChrisS]

Soup has an interview with Kevin Schwantz http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Aug/070815-34.htm

questions 11 and 12 are about Roger Lee Hayden and Chaz Davies and I think they are relevant to this topic. He says that if the opportunity comes a rider must take it.

of course Schwantz went from club racing to a factory Suzuki superbike in less than a year, thats maybe moving too fast ;)

[motorsportfan]

Interesting REading about James Ellison. He would have won the European Superstocks for a third time had he not also been competing in World Endurance in the same year But the small budget he had running his own team did not cover all rounds consequently he only finished Third in the Championships. Most times when James raced in Italy in Superstocks his bike was stripped down and handed back in a box. The only person it hurt was James he was continually racing every year for no money. During that Same year whilst competing in World Endurance and Euro superstocks he also tried the American Scene in Formula Extreme. He was trying so hard to be seen and so when the offer of being a replacment rider for the very talented Chris Burns came along he grabbed it with both hands. His enthusiasm in that team was amazing. Although he knew he was never going to get a podium he went out there and rode the wheels off the bike. Lifted up the spirits of everyone in the team and consequently was signed up again the following year. During this same year as replacement rider he went on to win the BSB privateer and also as you say succeeded in WSBK. So for all his successes and his struggles it is sad to see him over in America racing mid pack when he should be over here in WSBK. It also saddened me to see Neil Hodgson being given the opportunity to race at Laguna under James Team colours on a fACTORY Honda whilst James was still on the Sattelite bike.

[neninja]

Chris Burns is another rider who made some poor choices and suffered from bad luck.

He looked very promising - successful start to his racing in 125's winning races at national level. He then eventually moved to Superstock where he again won races and was challenging for the 2002 British Superstock title going into the final round only 10points of the lead. Tyre problems meant he dnf'd and ended the year 3rd. The same year he also won at least one European Superstock round.

Then it all went a bit pear shaped. He moved to WCM in MotoGP on a bike that simply wasn't up to the job - poor engine, poor chassis etc etc. He kept getting injured trying to qualify the thing each week and after 1 1/2 seasons was replaced by James Ellison due to further ongoing injuries.

In 2005 he was 10th the 1st time out on the uncompetitive Aim Yamaha in BSB. He parted company with Aim early in 2006 whilst competing in British Supersport with them. The Aim R6 started the season under developed and with almost no testing and things didn't get much better.

Since then he's hardly raced apart from a couple of recent entries riding an MV in Superstock (both rounds were rained off - more bad luck)

From MotoGP to nothing in just over a year.

[Mach24]

It truly is a fine line between success and failure (or mediocrity at least).

Using Josh Brookes as the example, he has the potential to be as good as any one in WSB. He made the decision to moved on from Australia as he had just done the double (winning Superbike and Supersport title in same year) and would have gone very close the year prior if not for a freak accident in the wet at Barbagallo Raceway in Western Australia resulting in a fractured pelvis.

Josh needed to move and the most logical step was to WSS after winning the Aussie round of the WSS at PI on a Honda.

Josh made the decision to ride for a private Ducati team with (I am assuming here) the express goal of impressing the factory. He found himself on uncompetitive machinery in an underfunded team, the story of many a rider (try Steve Martin for one). Then came Berttochi Kawasaki with some decent results (in relative terms) and then the switch to Honda's at the beginning of 07' with some dollars from Honda Australia to sweeten the deal. The Alto Evolution deal is now history!

Josh has made the most of nothing in regards to bringing dollars to a team. Should Josh get a seat at Ten Kate WSB for example he would need a season before becoming a championship threat but would definitely be fighting for wins in the first season. Yet in Europe he has little to no profile and with it no pulling power with regard to sponsorship. In Australia Josh could pretty much pick which team he wanted to ride for and they would hire him.

Is it poor decision making or is it luck? Sometimes performing well on what is clearly lacking machinery can only enhance your worth.

Josh needs to ride the wheels of the Stiggy bike and dominate his team mate, then he has clearly demonstrated his ability against the only true reference point.

(There are many similarities between Josh Brookes and Ant West, but Ant has done it internationally for a longer period)

[motorsportfan]

I agree with what you say about Chris Burns. I was once talking to Ellison and he told me that Chris had worked so hard on developing the WCM and took such a lot of knocks in the process, he couldnt understand why other people in the GP Paddock hadnt recognised this and give him another chance in GP. Then of course we never know what goes on in GP do we. Its strange that all James times in testing beat Guintollis times but Guintolli gets the ride the following year......

[buddie]

I have just been watching the AMA and was surprised to see so few competing after failing to qualify 10 riders were unable to participate in the actual race that day as the power of the Factory suzukis quashed any chance of the privateers being within the times needed to compete during the race week end. That was a whole lot of money down the drain for many riders and sponsors... The gap continually windening each year.

[ChrisS]

in AMA Superbike a lot of riders are on Superstock spec bikes, that is why there is such a huge gap between the front runners and the rest

and I don't mean that the back markers are on superstock bikes. mid field riders are also on Superstock. for example Jordan Suzuki has Yates on a superbike spec bike and Holden on a superstock spec

[The Phantom]

Do most (all?) riders use managers to negotiate this stuff? I'm sure there's good and bad managers/agents out there... also, we're talking guys that take risks for a living, so some are not going to go for the 'safe' option.

And some just love to race and will take whatever's going.

Vermeulen was a good example of a rider derided for making a 'bad' choice, but he's now arguably one of the top ten names in the world. Clearly, what the rider brings to the table is of equal importance to the quality of the team/bike he is racing on... some riders out there should perhaps take note.

Great post Pat.

[tha_jackal]

The reason Ant West has got his career back on track is because he has a new and decent manager, Harris Barnett (i think, used to manage Gardner) saw him struggling in 250s and set up his rides in WSS which allowed him to impress a GP team and now he looks like being there in 2008.. Id say a manager means alot ;)

[NinjaMaster]

Do most (all?) riders use managers to negotiate this stuff? I'm sure there's good and bad managers/agents out there... also, we're talking guys that take risks for a living, so some are not going to go for the 'safe' option.

And some just love to race and will take whatever's going.

Vermeulen was a good example of a rider derided for making a 'bad' choice, but he's now arguably one of the top ten names in the world. Clearly, what the rider brings to the table is of equal importance to the quality of the team/bike he is racing on... some riders out there should perhaps take note.

Great post Pat.

Some riders (or any other sportsmen for that matter) like to handle their own business and manage themselves. The rest have somone managing them, either professional managers or parents. I believe Stoner's parents manage him.
And it really is a terrific topic by Pat.



The reason Ant West has got his career back on track is because he has a new and decent manager, Harris Barnett (i think, used to manage Gardner) saw him struggling in 250s and set up his rides in WSS which allowed him to impress a GP team and now he looks like being there in 2008.. Id say a manager means alot ;)

Did Harris organise the 250 ride this year? Perhaps not everything comes off then...

At the end of the day, a rider or manager has to look at options presented to them and determine which one can take the rider the furthest. Many riders have been suckered into ordinary rides by shifty teams and it can really hurt a career. Most riders can probably get away with a poor season once, but a couple of bad decisions can really send them to the bottom of the pile for a long time. It's happened plenty of times before and will happen plenty more times in the future. I guess, rule of thumb is, if the team has a history of poor results and equipment, don't believe that they will suddenly become successful unless a factory backs up their story.

[tha_jackal]

I think the 250 ride appeared better on paper than it turned out (bad team and less than satisfactory bike).. So he did well to recover and earn Ant some exposure through WSS IMO.. He's doing a good job for Ant i rekon..

[ChrisS]

Do most (all?) riders use managers to negotiate this stuff?

I think Colin Edwards doesn't have a manager, he does his own negotiations.

[neninja]

I have just been watching the AMA and was surprised to see so few competing after failing to qualify 10 riders were unable to participate in the actual race that day as the power of the Factory suzukis quashed any chance of the privateers being within the times needed to compete during the race week end. That was a whole lot of money down the drain for many riders and sponsors... The gap continually windening each year.

A large number of riders in AMA Superbike are what I'd call 'hobby' racers.

They have plenty of money behind them from their family or businesses and are living a dream. They are not the quickest guys on track but their cash buys them decent bikes, kit, motorhomes etc.
I know of at least one rider in AMA Superbike who won't ride in the fast group at trackdays!!! He does however have very deep pockets and can afford to enjoy his hobby on a pretty big stage.

[ChrisS]

A large number of riders in AMA Superbike are what I'd call 'hobby' racers.

They have plenty of money behind them from their family or businesses and are living a dream. They are not the quickest guys on track but their cash buys them decent bikes, kit, motorhomes etc.
I know of at least one rider in AMA Superbike who won't ride in the fast group at trackdays!!! He does however have very deep pockets and can afford to enjoy his hobby on a pretty big stage.

Even if someone is fast at trackdays that doesn't mean he can race, going fast and racing wheel to wheel are 2 different things, yet somehow riders with very little racing experience find their way into superbike events.

I often wonder about the way AMA, runs the series

[The Phantom]

I often wonder about the way AMA, runs the series

Given that at the last AMA SBK round a large number of teams could not even qualify within the 107% (or whatever the cut-off is) of the time set by the Suzukis, you have to wonder... seems AMA is the place for big fish who like to swim in small ponds.

[NinjaMaster]

AMA would seriously be far better off 'dumbing' down their rules so that superbike was not so big budget and fields could be more competitive. Out of AMA, BSB and ASC (Aus Supers Champs), I would say that AMA is the least competitive from what I have seen, particularly from the point of view of the amount of backmarkers they lap. In my opinion, they should scrap FX and keep supersport, make superbikes less modded but higher than superstock and make superstock very mod restrictive and leave it open to c and d grade riders only. Australia did something similar and the quality of the racing has improved a lot.
The problem for us in Aus is the superbike grids are pretty thin as after the distributor 'factory' backed teams, there is very little support for privateers in what is sadly an ignored by the media series that produces a much higher level of competitor than say V8 Supercars does. The problem with not being mainstream I guess. It would be nice if a big name rider, Doohan or Gardner for example, could get behind the series and give it some profile.
I'm not sure this post is particularly on topic, but anyway... :)

[neninja]

Even if someone is fast at trackdays that doesn't mean he can race, going fast and racing wheel to wheel are 2 different things, yet somehow riders with very little racing experience find their way into superbike events.

I often wonder about the way AMA, runs the series

I think you've missed my point. The guy races in the Premier Superbike class in AMA but won't mix it with the fast lads on a trackday. Money but not talent.

[patnicholls]

I guess another example of how things can go drastically differently with different choices is to look at the top guys from last year's British Supersport Championship:

British Supersport 2006

1 - Cal Crutchlow (Ekerold Honda) - 242
2 - Tom Sykes (TAS Suzuki) - 172
3 - Eugene Laverty (Red Bull Honda) - 152 [injury-disrupted, missed several races]
4 - Leon Camier (Ekerold Honda) - 112 [had a large chunk of bad luck]
5 - Dennis Hobbs - 105
6 - Stuart Easton - 84
7 - Pere Riba - 73
8 - Jamie Robinson - 71
9 - Ian Lowry - 59
10 - Kieran Murphy - 59, etc

The top four guys from that series all moved on to other series for 2007:

Cal took a Rizla Suzuki seat in BSB, he sits 10th in the standings with 125 points, has had a pole position and three fourth place finishes. He started slowly but is now starting to regularly finish ahead of his team-mate Chris Walker and will be retained for next year, although the Suzuki is not race-winning material at present.

Tom Sykes joined Stobart Honda in BSB and is sixth in the standings with 230 points. He has had three podiums and has been ultra-consistent, with only two DNFs and no finishes below seventh in any race. Superb debut season and a maiden win isn't far away. Will either be retained or snapped up by the HRC team next season.

Eugene Laverty moved to 250GPs with Lucio Cecchinello's Honda squad. He's just 25th in the standings with only three points and a best finish of 14th.

Leon Camier has been riding the Bike Animal Honda in BSB which is a Dunlop-shod near-factory bike. He scored three early podiums but hasn't quite managed to get there again, and is seventh in the standings with 199 points. He looks unlikely to race again this year after breaking his leg in a horrid crash at Cadwell Park, but can be well-pleased with his efforts.

----------------------------------------

There are often comments along the lines of 'why the Brit obssession with Superbikes?' and the above pretty much provides the answer. It's clear that Eugene's choice hasn't worked out well compared with the other guys - if you were a team manager looking for riders, who'd you be going after out of those four? And Eugene would've been easily second in BSS 2006 but for injury, he's certainly got talent but this year in 250s could really harm his future prospects. I suppose the flip-side would be that there's no guarantee that things would have worked out better for him in BSB, and indeed the guys who did go there didn't know how it would go. Maybe one or more of them had 250 offers. It's rather easy to say things like this with hindsight, when all's said and done.

[Mach24]

Pat, great illustration of the point. Here in OZ I have no exposure to BSS at all but am aware all the guys you mention came from that championship.

I rate 3 of the 4, the one I do not rate (based on 07' performance) is Gene Laverty, after all he is the only one who has failed to make an impact in 07'.

Now it becomes obvious it is not a lack of talent, but perhaps poor decision making.

However you have gotta give it to Eugene for following his dream. I am guessing he had a bright future in BSB or another year in BSS ahead of him in 07' if he chose it, but he followed that dream!

Perhaps those riders in pursuit of GP fame need to get out of the UK earlier and race in Spain and Italy to build a platform to GP racing?

[ChrisS]

I think you've missed my point. The guy races in the Premier Superbike class in AMA but won't mix it with the fast lads on a trackday. Money but not talent.

yes I got that, what I was saying is that even if a rider is fast at trackdays (fast enough to make it on a superbike grid) that doesnt mean he is good enough to race is superbike

[ChrisS]

about Laverty and the BSB guys. With what criteria did Laverty's choice not work out?

is the final goal for all 4 guys motoGP? if yes then are the 3 BSB guys any closer to MotoGP than Laverty? I think not

[patnicholls]

about Laverty and the BSB guys. With what criteria did Laverty's choice not work out?

is the final goal for all 4 guys motoGP? if yes then are the 3 BSB guys any closer to MotoGP than Laverty? I think not

Any rider has to be adaptable in this day and age, so the 'final goal' has to be flexible and not a definite 'MotoGP' or 'World Superbikes', surely?

By all means, riders will tell you as they start their career what they'd like to do, but as with any career it doesn't mean it will happen. If when you're starting out in a national 125cc championship, you say you're aiming to be MotoGP World Champion, you're looking too far ahead as it's a meaningless thing to say - there are hundreds of guys in exactly the same position and you're not competing directly against most of them. The aim is to do as well as possible/win the thing you're doing and move on. No-one's entitled to win anything, as we see watching the current MotoGP field which is filled with champions of MotoGP, 250s, WSB, WSS, etc. Only one guy can win the title each year...

If there is one stage when you should choose a path out of MotoGP or WSB, it's arguably earlier than the guys I mentioned and happens when a rider is doing really well in national 125s. If you want to go to GPs, at present the way to do it is to either have some decent money and get a ride in 125 GPs for a couple of years, or go to the Spanish CEV 125 series and hope to be picked up from there. Otherwise it's from national 125s up to Supersport and Superbikes, and on to Worlds if you do well enough. Doing well in Worlds may then open up a late path to GPs, but that is a long-term option if all the previous steps work out. These paths of progression are another reason why many domestic riders do stick with the Superbike route, simply because if you want to be in GPs you have to up sticks aged 17 and even then there's no guarantee of it working out.

Do I think Eugene is closer to MotoGP than Camier/Sykes/Crutchlow? Well, no, not really. With the best will in the world, he hasn't got much results-wise this year and will be lucky to get a 250 ride next year. On the flip-side, the other three guys will possibly have had some World Superbike interest as a result of this year's showings in BSB.

The point of the thread and mentioning Eugene and the guys was to do with what happens when things don't work out, because not everyone can have a good season every time (sport is comparative - someone has to do badly!). James Ellison has suffered because he made a jump that didn't work out, and likewise Eugene has made a risky jump that doesn't look like paying. The three guys who went to BSB took a smaller step but it's paid well, as now they've each got a decent season's BSB on their CV. So if in future things don't go well, they can say 'look at how I did in BSB in 2007'. Eugene's now got to look back to 2006 and a lower class for his good results.

[Mr Fudd]

A great topic.

I think that the main point here is that by anyones standards, neither Brookes nor Ellison has done anything outstanding, in the big scheme of things. Whilst WSS wins & a world endurance crown show decent talent, they haven't got that 'last bit' that makes them a star at any level. They took the rides to get exposure on the basis that those in the know, know what the level of equipment is that they are on, and judge them, on that, rather than the actual results. Its most prevalent in 250, where factory bikes are available to a minority, then A kit, then B kit. Based on his results Chaz Davies is a waste of time, but based on the bike that he did them on, he's talented enough to get a shot on a MotoGP bike.

Another thing to consider is money, and which way it flows. There are riders in top UK teams, who are paying to be there, to get on the best kit, to be seen, to go to the next level. Thats a fact, and as a result, the riders that dont have the money ride lesser bikes for nothing, or even lesser ones & get paid. Its better to sit it out IMHO , than ride a bike that will not get results no matter how hard you try.

Another thing to consider is that now that coming off a 250 is the way to MotoGP again, as opposed to coming off a superbike, Laverty is more likely to make the next step, hopefully to a better 250 team, and as such will then have 2 years on the MotoGP circus behind him. Thats worth something.


Sadly the lack of 250 domestic racing has killed the route to MotoGP for all but a few now, and the costs involved in running SS600 now are far higher than running a 250, so lots of talent that comes from domestic 125 racing gets lost because they cant make the move to 250. This makes natural progression virtually impossible in the UK, as the feeder classes are full of guys who are pot hunting due to a lack of good kit at the top levels. The top supersport teams SHOULD be in superbike IMO, making SS a proper feeder, but its not likely nor practical , so it wont happen.

As a result, you get mediocre teams in superbike, with mediocre riders, and better funded teams in lower classes which is a bit daft, from a progression point of view, but makes marketing sense for the sponsors..... difficult.


So really , apart from Bradley Smith, we have no UK rider who has followed a non UK path to the top, and as a result we have no involvement in the top class at all , and only one rider in WSB of note , and one in WSS.

So top line Brits
MotoGP 0
250's 0
125's 1
WSB 1
WSS 1

Thats shocking.

I know that Dorna is trying to get more Brits in the field , but when you think of how many riders could make the grade , its depressing to think that a potential entry of 150 riders in the above groups, we have 3. ( not direspect to Danny Webb, Laverty or Dan Linfoot, but they aren't 'in there' as such)

When you look at the number of french riders that come through their series, which is truly shocking,from a team & spectator front, it makes you wonder if we'll ever produce another top line rider after James Toseland.


So when riders of Ellison's ability step up & take a ride that other dont, to be on a bigger stage, they should be applauded, and supported , rather than 'whats he doing there when he can't win here'.

BSB is too big now. Too expensive , and it sucks too much money out of the bigger picture.

Superbike should be superstock+
Supersport should be age limited
Superstock should stay as is
250 should come back
125 to stay.
and a return to a age limited superstock 600 class.



I know some of this is a bit O/T but i think its all connected.

[ChrisS]

The way I see things here are the 4 riders options for next season, some of them have already signed.

Camier/Sykes/Crutchlow:
stay in BSB (same team or move to a better one)
move to SBK (to midfield teams)
move to WSS (could get a top team, should be willing to accept a midfield team)

Laverty
stay in 250 (if he can stay on the same team or get an Aprilia bike, he could also go to a worst team just to stay in 250)
go back to BSS (raced there has the conections I think he can get a good bike)
move to BSB (maybe not to as good team as the 3 above, he is sponsored by red bull so that may help)
move to SBK (to midfield teams)
move to WSS (to midfield teams)

overall I think that Laverty's career path (as it is now) at best opened the 250cc GP championship for him and at worst put him a year or 2 behind his BSS rivals. Only time will tell if it will work out, trying to judge it after 1 season is too soon.

BTW Mr Fudd there is another thread (2008 BSB classes I think) about the changes BSB is having for 2008, superstock 600 will return next season

[tha_jackal]

Johnny Rea has signed for Ten Kate for three years, the first year being a WSS ride then moving up the year later.. Good move? Time will tell.. Also note that he turned down a ride to partner Bayliss at Xerox Ducati..

[ChrisS]

I just posted the same thing in the Rumour Mill, I don't see the logic behind the move but I hope it works out for him

[motorsportfan]

The Comment that ''James Ellison '' made the jump but it didnt work. was because Tech 3 DID NOT want it ''to work. Other wise they would have given him the same frame as EVERY OTHER RIDER in the Yamaha Camp that year. Rossi came first of course he could not get the bike to work He had to go back to the old frame then Edwards got his Some time later and lastly the Tech 3 tEAM..... But both frames were given to Carlos Checa and THAT IS WHY IT DIDNT WORK. Plus the fact the Yamaha told him they would not be renewing his contract and the introduction of Silvain Guintoli (as a 'Test rider) did not help matters any......... They made damn sure of that James was the only rider competing on the frame that Rossi could not ride. Even our British commentators on Eurosport would not say what was going on. During the GP in the U.K> Everyone was busy promoting James Toseland on tv. and forgetting that there was a Young Brit who had come up the ranks the hard way.Who had won Championships against factory teams., When James first went into GP his first words of warning From a British Team Manager......'''Dont Trust ANYONE''
Now the indignity in AMA When Neil Hodgson gets to ride under the Corona Colours on a factory bike to promote himself at the Laguna Seca GP this year.Whilst James is on the Privateer Machine. Why?????? So far James is 11th in the standings. Nothing to do with his riding , but to do with the continual glitches and having to pull in. So who is now up for the Honda AMA RIDE 2008........... Neil Hodgson. I still believe in James is just as talented as Neil. I sponsored him for a few years and will continue to follow his career during my retirement.

[patnicholls]

Some very good points above since my last post on this one.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course, it's easy to say 'such-and-such "didn't work" after it's happened, when we don't know for sure how the alternatives might have panned out. So everything I (and everyone else :) ) says should be taken with a pinch of salt.

----------------------

That said, I want to talk Brits again (the same things do apply to most nations, but I know about the Brits better :p ).

I'm after a few thoughts on Dan Linfoot's situation regarding next year. Dan has taken the 250cc Team Sicilia Aprilia vacated by Westy for the second half of the season. So far he's scored a 9th place in the wet at Donington and otherwise had it tough and been near the back.

Here's a few reasons why he's had it tough:


He doesn't know the vast majority of the circuits[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
He is new to an Aprilia[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
Replacement riders in GPs tend to struggle, especially considering the above (Westy is an exception to this - but when doing the League's points its clear that the regulars usually have a lock-out on the points)[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
He is most likely not being paid for his ride (as was the case with Westy, also following several unkept promises about the machinery)[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
As far as I know, the language barrier will be a problem between rider and team[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]
He is actually very new to a 250 at all - he's done a few races this season, about four wild-card rides last year on a Winona Honda, and before that one Italian 250 Champ race (which he won). There isn't a 250cc British Championship per se any more. Dan is 18 years old.[/*:m:1yv8n6b9]At Misano Dan popped up to the Eurosport commentary box for a chat and Randy Mamola was literally leading him through how he should be approaching learning new tracks (in terms of not trying too hard and crashing early on) as he doesn't have a manager to guide him. That seemed an extraordinary thing for a commentator to be doing, but it was obvious that Dan did appreciate it and then you begin to see how tough it can be for riders thrown in at the deep end in that way.

Dan clearly has some talent - I've seen him win British Champ 125 races very impressively. He's scored two top 10s in GPs at Donington (once in 125s, once in 250s) when it's been wet and getting your bike setup correctly is less important. So there's potential there. The tricky bit is how to get him in the right place to bring that talent out and onwards if possible - setting the bike up properly and learning the circuits at the same time to score results.

I'm sure I was going to thing of a concluding point to this when I started writing it... :)

[tha_jackal]

For sure Dan is in a tough situation, but one thing i find funny is, when he first got the ride and he hadn't ridden any races, i watched an interview with him gobbing on about how 'good the bike is' and how 'its up to me to get the results, this is a more than good enough bike, so theres no excuses' ..

I think his current results (qualifying regularly around 4 seconds off the pace) shows the level of shoddy machinery Ant had to deal with and what he could do with it..

Good luck to Dan though, I think he will get a shot in 250's next year, just maybe he should go for another team.. What happened to the Winona WCM team being a permanant fixture this year with he and Kev Coghlan on board? Id like to see that.. Kev = talent of the future..

[ChrisS]

I was also wondering about the Winona WCM team

About Randy Mamola, he may not do it on the air but he often mentions he talked to young riders (usually English speaking riders) and tried to give them some pointers, it seems its something he likes doing :up:

[ArmchairBikeFan]

Mamola's a star.
Riders always have an excuse for a rubbish performance. It's never the rider's fault.
I think one of the reasons why there are so few British racers on the world stage is that too many Brits support mediocrity. You're supposed to "get behind our lads", even if their performances are deeply unimpressive. It's just clutching at straws.
Ellison didn't get the new frame Yamaha because he did nothing to show the team he was worth the trouble. He was a damn sight slower than Checa when they were on identical frames, before Checa got the upgrade.
Chaz Davies punched above his weight on that terrible 250. Ironically, he only got a MotoGP chance because he chose to move to the AMA. Let's see how he does on a half decent MotoGP bike next weekend.

[motorsportfan]

At the very beginning Ellison was within half a second of Checca and dont forget CheccA has been in GP for over ten years. James had never raced a GP bike in his life before,. During testing on the Yamaha (OLD FRAME) his times were very impressive. Herve Poncharal never wanted James in the team... James was sacked almost as soon as he was
installed..Could that be because Tech 3 had received their years funding from Dunlop already....???? Apart from that he had Guintolli (who was never within in his times) sitting on the sidelines waiting to take his place. Checca was riding on the old chassis . So obviously his times started to improve dramatically. James was left to struggle on the newchassis (The One That Lost Rossi his Title). Guintolli was siting in the garage waiting for James' place in the team. Now this year Guintolli has as many tyres as he needs
in GP there is not limit. The other riders have limited tyres and you can see the gap narrowing. If only it had been 2007 that was James first year on a GP bike. ......WCM doesnt count ,that was a superbike..... Oh any as for James not having actually done anything......Two Times European champion.
Nearly Three times (came third the third year as he did compete in all rounds) as he was winning the World Endurance Championship at the same time.
Two British Champoinships under his belt and Also Suzuka 8 hour (competed Twice./.// Fourth overall But FIrst in his class. Eight place first time round.......all won on no wages and as a privateer. Something many of our young riders out there have never Come up against......No Wages.....
#As for Chaz DAvies.......I like Chaz he is a great kid I have met him and his family a few times He is hungry but he doesnt have a ragged chassis or Dunlop Tyres to contend with on his Dantin bike

[motorsportfan]

I am unable to edit last post. But meant to say James ddid NOT compete in all the rounds in the third year of Euro. championship.

[T-D]

Mamola's a star.
Riders always have an excuse for a rubbish performance. It's never the rider's fault.
I think one of the reasons why there are so few British racers on the world stage is that too many Brits support mediocrity. You're supposed to "get behind our lads", even if their performances are deeply unimpressive. It's just clutching at straws.
Ellison didn't get the new frame Yamaha because he did nothing to show the team he was worth the trouble. He was a damn sight slower than Checa when they were on identical frames, before Checa got the upgrade.
Chaz Davies punched above his weight on that terrible 250. Ironically, he only got a MotoGP chance because he chose to move to the AMA. Let's see how he does on a half decent MotoGP bike next weekend.
i think we all need to be accurate and honest about why chaz got the ducati ride and why he's in the mix at ducati for a test seat in 2008. on results, you could just as well choose ellison as you could chaz. that is to say, that chaz has NOT had the results. in fairness to him (and ellison) he has not had the equipment to have the results, either. the reason chaz is in the mix is because of his great personal friendship with current ducati love child, casey stoner. much the same way that colin edwards owes his current motogp career to valentino rossi's affection, so, too does chaz owe his burgeoning career to stoner.

and ellison has not and still does not have great equipment. hodgson on a factory bike in the corona colours was about the most disgraceful thng i've seen in quite a while. what was the point? to embarrass ellison?

sometimes top level racing politics flat out suck.

[motorsportfan]

On a final note re ellison. In 2007 James was getting a slating from the press both here and in Italy. We contacted one of the Sports Giornals in Italy and told them that James was on a different bike from other three Yamaha riders. The journalist went along for himself and spoke to the Tech 3 TEam, who confirmed that James was on a different machine from Checa Rossia and Edwards I have a copy of the transcript if anyone wants to see it,.

[burger]

i think we all need to be accurate and honest about why chaz got the ducati ride and why he's in the mix at ducati for a test seat in 2008. on results, you could just as well choose ellison as you could chaz. that is to say, that chaz has NOT had the results. in fairness to him (and ellison) he has not had the equipment to have the results, either. the reason chaz is in the mix is because of his great personal friendship with current ducati love child, casey stoner. much the same way that colin edwards owes his current motogp career to valentino rossi's affection, so, too does chaz owe his burgeoning career to stoner.

and ellison has not and still does not have great equipment. hodgson on a factory bike in the corona colours was about the most disgraceful thng i've seen in quite a while. what was the point? to embarrass ellison?

sometimes top level racing politics flat out suck.

Actually Ant West was on Chaz Davies old Aprilia earlier this season and consistently finished it 3-5 places ahead of where Chaz had been the year before.

[tha_jackal]

No that was 2006 when he was racing for Kiefer and your right, he put Chaz's results to shame..

[NinjaMaster]

To cut Chaz some slack, he is younger and more inexperienced than Ant.

[buddie]

chaz is not more inexperienced than ant . Chaz is more experienced by far. If you knew anything about him you would not make that comment.

[tha_jackal]

chaz is not more inexperienced than ant . Chaz is more experienced by far. If you knew anything about him you would not make that comment.

Are you high? :D Clearly you know nothing about Ant... ;)

[buddie]

Well done Chaz Daytona 200 champion 2008 ;)

[Mach24]

Interesting to watch the career paths.

Josh is starting to make a name for himself, he is at the pointy end of the WSS field. Interesting he appears to be an accumulator, yet in Australia he was a dominator, hard and fast.

James is finding his feet again in the UK and looks pretty aggressive at times and may even pull off a victory against the odds.

Both lads find themselves on slightly under funded Honda's with a possibility to impress enough that they may move up a peg next year.

How will their careers turn at the next stop?

[Roby44]

It doesn't get much "attention" though does it in Australia..

Not that MotoGP WSBK gets much either, ..

[Mach24]

Interesting to watch the career paths.

Josh is starting to make a name for himself, he is at the pointy end of the WSS field. Interesting he appears to be an accumulator, yet in Australia he was a dominator, hard and fast.

James is finding his feet again in the UK and looks pretty aggressive at times and may even pull off a victory against the odds.

Both lads find themselves on slightly under funded Honda's with a possibility to impress enough that they may move up a peg next year.

How will their careers turn at the next stop?

Ellison = Factory Yamaha
Brookes = Factory Honda

After the discussion over previous pages we now find ourselves with these two lads potentially fighting for the BSB Championship.

[NinjaMaster]

Nice to see perserverence (hopefully) finally paying off. Hope to see both riders make use of this great opportunity to forward their careers.