That is why Honda F1 aren't Competitive! [Archive]

Flat.tyres

15th August 2007, 14:06

Doesnt surprise me and would explain why the last three cars have been rubbish, it does surprise me that it took this long to find though.

I used to see it all the time. "so and so's got that and he's winning so we will win if we get one."

having a competitve chassis, rubber, engine is all well and good but you can spend a fortune and get nowhere but dissillusioned. you need the experience to put them together, in the right circumstances and interperet what needs modifying to get the best out of the package.

Honda may have a great windtunnel but if they think thats the be all and end all of it, they will get in a hell of a mess. actually, make that "have got themselves in a hell of a mess". :laugh:

Valve Bounce

15th August 2007, 14:47

Maybe Honda should speak nicely to Ron Dennis and see if they can borrow his wind tunnel. :)

markabilly

15th August 2007, 14:50

Let me guess, wrong calibration of the wind tunnel translates that they found that the fan was switched on the wrong way, so instead of pushing the wind towards the front of the car, it was going away from the front of the car.

Maybe that explains why they were going backwards much faster....... :arrows:

555-04Q2

15th August 2007, 14:54

Both Honda and Toyota have the same fundamental problem - Poor management of vast resources and funding.

Valve Bounce

15th August 2007, 15:01

Actually, this is incredible, seeing that Toshigi are supposed to be carrying out parallel development on the car. I wish we could get something from Eiji. :(

jens

15th August 2007, 15:36

Maybe Honda should speak nicely to Ron Dennis and see if they can borrow his wind tunnel. :)

Or borrow the Ferrari documents. :p :
But it won't be sure that Honda would manage to use even those in beneficial way for themselves - they'll take a look of the schemes upside down, but without knowing that Fry will confidently announce that 2008 will be Honda's year after finding a "genius solution" for their problems. :p :

markabilly

15th August 2007, 15:57

Or borrow the Ferrari documents. :p :
But it won't be sure that Honda would manage to use even those in beneficial way for themselves - they'll take a look of the schemes upside down, but without knowing that Fry will confidently announce that 2008 will be Honda's year after finding a "genius solution" for their problems. :p :

Yeah I can just see rb and jennie driving upside down while blasting down the track--I bet they would be much more careful about running over the corners and off the circuit into the gravel pits....gives a whole new meaning to the term "barge boards"

as well as "tunnel vision"

But the simpler solution might be to get the wind blowing the right way by turning off the reverse switch :arrows:

Flat.tyres

15th August 2007, 16:01

markabilly

15th August 2007, 16:16

houston, we have a problem. why is our floor lifting when the ferrari one is lowering :laugh:
:D

Response: Failure is not an option. Just put your head down and drive
(gives a whole new meaning to that phrase as well.....)

Malbec

15th August 2007, 17:45

edv

15th August 2007, 20:40

Well, if they're to drive upside down then they should hire Dario... :)

slowkarter

15th August 2007, 22:23

Well, if they're to drive upside down then they should hire Dario... :)

simply awesome! AGR's run Honda's too, right?

markabilly

16th August 2007, 00:05

Well, if they're to drive upside down then they should hire Dario... :)

Yeah, come to think of it, with the new car, Honda probably needs to drag over some IRL and champ car drivers for pointers...they seem to spend a lot of time flying around on their backs...get some new feed back on how things look from down there...or have thos guys been using the same calibrations on thier wind tunnels like the Honda boys

Sleeper

16th August 2007, 00:35

Actually, this is incredible, seeing that Toshigi are supposed to be carrying out parallel development on the car. I wish we could get something from Eiji. :(
I thibk Tochigi concentrates on Engine and drivetrain development, but dont quote me on that.

And if this Wind tunnel only came on-line last year, then screw what I said about the previous two cars.

Valve Bounce

16th August 2007, 02:10

I thibk Tochigi concentrates on Engine and drivetrain development, but dont quote me on that.

And if this Wind tunnel only came on-line last year, then screw what I said about the previous two cars.

OK, then how about using last year's tunnel? or is this being used by Super Aguri? :p :

Drew

16th August 2007, 02:10

Anybody want a bet it makes little difference? :rolleyes:

Valve Bounce

16th August 2007, 02:18

Anybody want a bet it makes little difference? :rolleyes:

Common!! let's be reasonable - it can't get any worse. :p :

Drew

16th August 2007, 02:26

Common!! let's be reasonable - it can't get any worse. :p :

JINX!

:p :

markabilly

16th August 2007, 06:14

says it all about the dominance of technology and why RD was only half right when he said half the field was composed of useless drivers.....the drivers can not fix the car, but a good wind tunnel can...if the switches are all turned on right.......

So who will win the wdc and who will be on the bottom of the field????

The answer is blowing in the wind...as Bob Dylan said a long time ago, in a place far far away.... :(

tinchote

16th August 2007, 17:56

OK, then how about using last year's tunnel? or is this being used by Super Aguri? :p :

That's the argument that renders what's mentioned in the article worthless. Even if the tunnel is flawed, it's hard to see how the team would have failed to see that this year's car is worse than last year's.

ClarkFan

17th August 2007, 00:14

Whats the surprise here? Williams had exactly the same problem two seasons ago didn't they, when everything they did to make their car go quicker seemed to make it slower.

Honda probably rushed its introduction so its initial calibration may not have been accurate, I remember it came online ahead of schedule. Whats that they say about a stitch in time saving nine?

I'm interested to hear how this problem could have affected the past three seasons worth of cars though since the tunnel only came online last year....

I believe that this story has been repeated other places as well. Sauber had a terrible time with their new wind tunnel when it was first installed. They didn't really get them ironed out until the switch to BMW, and have been improving steadily since. And what was the cause for the McLaren design that flopped in 2004?

Tricky things, these windy machines. :s

ClarkFan

wedge

17th August 2007, 00:50

Yes, a lot of teams seem to have problems when they move from small scale to large scale wind tunnels

And what was the cause for the McLaren design that flopped in 2004?

That was because Adrian Newey kept pushing the limits of car design to the pint the cars had kept falling apart.

And probably a signal to Ron that Newey didn't want to stay at McLaren any longer!

Valve Bounce

17th August 2007, 03:42

Maybe the Ferrari designs that McLaren pinched included their Wind Tunnel calibrations. Now if only Honda had realised that..................... :p :

Sleeper

17th August 2007, 13:47

I believe that this story has been repeated other places as well. Sauber had a terrible time with their new wind tunnel when it was first installed. They didn't really get them ironed out until the switch to BMW, and have been improving steadily since. And what was the cause for the McLaren design that flopped in 2004?

Tricky things, these windy machines. :s

ClarkFan
Actually, Sauber got the windtunnle to start giving out real improvments after about 6 months, they just didnt have enough staff to man it 24/7 like the top teams, so the work was slower.

As for the MP4/19, it was effectively the 18 with very slight improvments, despite the fact that Newey knew it was rubbish, they wouldnt let him design and build a new car for the start of the season, only the middle. As for why it was rubbish, he tryed pushing the limits of too far too soon.

wedge

17th August 2007, 15:18

Actually, Sauber got the windtunnle to start giving out real improvments after about 6 months, they just didnt have enough staff to man it 24/7 like the top teams, so the work was slower.

True.

Jacques Villenueve mentioned he felt an enormous difference between 2005/06 simply because the turnover from wind tunnel to end product was a lot quicker.

call_me_andrew

18th August 2007, 07:58

An uncalibrated wind tunnel? Didn't we hear about this a month or so ago?

Malbec

18th August 2007, 13:15

Tricky things, these windy machines. :s

ClarkFan

You'd have thought that the buck stops with the windtunnel maker. After all its their job to design, build and then install it so it proves a benefit to the team forking out several million.

Also, of all their customers, the F1 teams are the ones most likely to publicise it when their windtunnel is the cause of all their woes so its not good publicity either.

You wouldn't buy a car to be told "sort out the ECU yourself mate" would you....

wedge

18th August 2007, 14:52

An uncalibrated wind tunnel? Didn't we hear about this a month or so ago?

Yes, but they were paddock rumours at the start of the year. Rubens has confirmed those suspicions.

Sleeper

18th August 2007, 15:43

You'd have thought that the buck stops with the windtunnel maker. After all its their job to design, build and then install it so it proves a benefit to the team forking out several million.

Also, of all their customers, the F1 teams are the ones most likely to publicise it when their windtunnel is the cause of all their woes so its not good publicity either.

You wouldn't buy a car to be told "sort out the ECU yourself mate" would you....

I'd expect that the teams are largely involved with the design of the wind tunnels systems themselves so its their responsobility to get them calibrated properly. Because we hear this so often I'm guessing its harder than it sounds.

Malbec

18th August 2007, 20:31

From an industry mag I read a year or so ago I think the wind tunnel company handles everything from design onwards with about three main suppliers. They were looking at the F1 trend for getting 100% windtunnels as a lucrative market.

Teams might apply pressure to sort the job out early but I don't think they have much influence beyond setting the specifications of the product.

Valve Bounce

19th August 2007, 05:06

Maybe they are re-cycling the air and forgot about the dirty air :p :

aryan

19th August 2007, 07:27

As for the MP4/19, it was effectively the 18 with very slight improvments, despite the fact that Newey knew it was rubbish, they wouldnt let him design and build a new car for the start of the season, only the middle. As for why it was rubbish, he tryed pushing the limits of too far too soon.

The 2004 car was supposed to be MP4/20 which never raced cause it failed safety tests, then they had to modify MP4/19 to version 'B' and later on 'D' and that's the car you remember as being only an incremental evolution of the previous year's car.

aryan

19th August 2007, 07:30

I believe that this story has been repeated other places as well. Sauber had a terrible time with their new wind tunnel when it was first installed. They didn't really get them ironed out until the switch to BMW, and have been improving steadily since.

Sauber's tunnel was never in this shape, it started improving the car and Massa and JV were regularly in the points after a couple of months of its start. The thing was Sauber had enough money to only hire one shift of aerodynamists, which meant the tunnel was only utilised 1/3 of its time. That was fixed with the money BMW brought.

What amazes me is that it took Honda this long to determine that there was something wrong with their tunnel, and that results in the machine were not being translated in results on the track.

Sleeper

19th August 2007, 15:45

The 2004 car was supposed to be MP4/20 which never raced cause it failed safety tests, then they had to modify MP4/19 to version 'B' and later on 'D' and that's the car you remember as being only an incremental evolution of the previous year's car.
No, I've read an interview with Newey from during 05 (I think) were he said that the MP4/19 that started the 2004 season was basically a very lightly modified 18 (the car that never raced in 03) and should never have been named as the 19 (giving the impression that it was a new car, when it wasnt really). The MP4/19B that was introduced in that years French GP was what Newey alwasy considered as the real 19 anyway.

The MP4/20 was the 05 car that blew away the Renaults, at least until its engine failed (which was about every other session :p ).

wedge

19th August 2007, 23:01

What amazes me is that it took Honda this long to determine that there was something wrong with their tunnel, and that results in the machine were not being translated in results on the track.

That's the problem with today's society. Everyone expects instant results.

As soon as Honda's wind tunnel went online 24/7 they easily had a car fighting for podiums against McLaren in the second half of 2006. There were never any suspicions of a faulty wind tunnel last year. Everyone expected Honda to carry that form over this year.

Now with Honda starting off with a terrible car they're probably about 2-3 months behind their rivals. The problem isn't Honda have been becoming worse and worse, its that Honda have been too busy understanding their flaws whereas their closest rivals have a much better development program because they have a more predictable and better understanding.

There's nothing worse than having to develop an unpredictable car that snaps into oversteer and responds little to adjustments.

Sleeper

20th August 2007, 16:21

That's the problem with today's society. Everyone expects instant results.

As soon as Honda's wind tunnel went online 24/7 they easily had a car fighting for podiums against McLaren in the second half of 2006. There were never any suspicions of a faulty wind tunnel last year. Everyone expected Honda to carry that form over this year.

Now with Honda starting off with a terrible car they're probably about 2-3 months behind their rivals. The problem isn't Honda have been becoming worse and worse, its that Honda have been too busy understanding their flaws whereas their closest rivals have a much better development program because they have a more predictable and better understanding.

There's nothing worse than having to develop an unpredictable car that snaps into oversteer and responds little to adjustments.
When the wind tunnel came online last year they already had a good idea as to where the prob;ems with the 06 car were and what they needed to do to fix it, it was all part of an ongoing processe that was started in the middle of last year.

The thing with the 07 car is that not only have they started from scratch but gone down a very different route to everyone else, which has turned out to be a blind ally. If they knew about the problems earlier they probably wouldnt be in such a mess at the moment.

wedge

21st August 2007, 00:47

The thing with the 07 car is that not only have they started from scratch but gone down a very different route to everyone else, which has turned out to be a blind ally. If they knew about the problems earlier they probably wouldnt be in such a mess at the moment.

In the case for Honda's defence, adjusting the car finding the sweet spot can be like finding needle in a haystack when your car is an absolute cow heap!

The basics is that the RA07 is unstable at deceleration, entry and middle of corner and is unforgiving no matter what the adjustments - that's a very hefty problem solving process to go through! It's only a matter of months when a pattern emerges when you design and test numerous components eg. the front wing assemblies in recent months - which should work on paper but actually don't in the real world, do you figure that there maybe something wrong with the wind tunnel.

I'm no expert, but checking the calibration of the wind tunnel is low down on the priority list? After all, first you need to gain sufficient understanding of your car.