Can-Am

[-Helix-]

I miss this series. They should really bring it back. Though I know it's not very likely obviously...

[ShiftingGears]

I'd like to see it. I'm sure a virtually unrestricted series would, with proper marketing, be absolutely huge. And dangerous. And then people would want the danger lessened because the cars would be too fast and more regulations would be introduced and...regulations are what killed Can-Am in the first place. But if all involved would be prepared to participate in an immensely fast and dangerous series, then I'm in!

[-Helix-]

I'd like to see it. I'm sure a virtually unrestricted series would, with proper marketing, be absolutely huge. And dangerous. And then people would want the danger lessened because the cars would be too fast and more regulations would be introduced and...regulations are what killed Can-Am in the first place. But if all involved would be prepared to participate in an immensely fast and dangerous series, then I'm in!

Yep, that's why the series was so great. The drivers were fearless, the engineers were crazy, and the cars were the fastest in the world!

[wmcot]

Designers/builders could actually be innovative with their cars. Too many racing series (that aren't single-make series) still have all the cars looking basically the same. Look at the ALMS prototypes - there is nothing really radical in the way they look - they all look pretty similar. The same goes for Formula 1.

Some rules are necessary, but too many rules stifle creativity! :(

[maylego]

Designers/builders could actually be innovative with their cars. Too many racing series (that aren't single-make series) still have all the cars looking basically the same. Look at the ALMS prototypes - there is nothing really radical in the way they look - they all look pretty similar. The same goes for Formula 1.

Some rules are necessary, but too many rules stifle creativity! :(

there are no specs tires, spec suspension, spec engines, spec brakes, etc in Le Mans-style racing.

http://www.americanlemans.com/news/Article.aspx?ID=2811

I doubt I would be able to tell F1 cars apart from eachother unlike LMPs.

[wmcot]

there are no specs tires, spec suspension, spec engines, spec brakes, etc in Le Mans-style racing.

http://www.americanlemans.com/news/Article.aspx?ID=2811

I doubt I would be able to tell F1 cars apart from eachother unlike LMPs.

But you have to admit that the overall aerodynamic design of most LMPs is very similar. You don't see a Chaparral standing out from the crowd with a huge, white wing flying above the car.

[wedge]

But you have to admit that the overall aerodynamic design of most LMPs is very similar. You don't see a Chaparral standing out from the crowd with a huge, white wing flying above the car.

But they were clueless about aero in those days.

All the huge gains come from aero and its not unusual to have copycat designs.

[maylego]

But you have to admit that the overall aerodynamic design of most LMPs is very similar. You don't see a Chaparral standing out from the crowd with a huge, white wing flying above the car.

If the aero design of most LMPs is very similar, where does that leave F1?

Closed-cockpit LMPs are allowed in both classes.

The Lavaggi LS1 Ford doesn't blend in with other LMPs. Giovanni Lavaggi is behind the effort. He won the 2001 1,000 km of Monza with a Ferrari 333 SP. It was an FIA World Sportscar Championship race.

http://www.lavaggi.org/english/index.htm

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/2845/Lavaggi-LS1-Ford.html

http://wsrp.ic.cz/fiascc.html

Brembo brakes, AP Racing brakes, Ricardo gearboxes, X-trac gearboxes, Dunlop, Kumho, Michelin, and Yokohama tires at the 2007 Lime Rock ALMS race:

http://www.supercars.net/gallery/119513/1445/2.html

Curved rear wing of the 2007 Porsche RS Spyder:

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/alms/2007/ra/alms-2007-ra-kd-0032.jpg

[wedge]

Check out the aero on the Peugeot 905 from the early 1990s. It started a whole new revolution in sportscar design....

http://www.drive-a-formula-1.com/ags-formula-1/ags_ext_images/peugeot_905.jpg

[-Helix-]

It's more the unlimited freedom of Can-Am that I miss. The cars were the best on the planet and had the highest technology available. The engineers would think of anything to make the car faster - even fans to suck the car to the ground!

Although Can-Am did have some pretty nice looking cars too. It was more what was underneath them that I liked. I want a return of a "free for all" series like that. It would be great if people were brave enough to try it.

A series like that could definititely take off. The manufacturer involvement was incredible and the races were shorter instead of endurance races like LMPs run which made them more TV friendly.

[Bob Riebe]

there are no specs tires, spec suspension, spec engines, spec brakes, etc in Le Mans-style racing.

http://www.americanlemans.com/news/Article.aspx?ID=2811

I doubt I would be able to tell F1 cars apart from eachother unlike LMPs.
There are spec. lap times.
Go too quickly, and a spec. item will be applied to your car, so you go no quicker than allowed.

The ACO is closer to GARRA than most will admit.
Bob

[Mark in Oshawa]

The reason why CAN-AM worked then and wont work now is back then, engineers were just starting to discover the wonders of AERO, the chassis and materials were all just starting to be revolutionized and there were a varying number of opinions on how to make a race car fast. People designed cars by eye as much as they did the wind tunnel in the 60's. Now it is a science. You take 100 engineers and designers, and tell them to design a race car to a loose set of parameters now, and they will all come up with pretty similar designs, and after racing for 2 years, the only cars competing will even look more similar. It isn't the wild west any more either, for if you ran no rules on engine power, tire size or aero, the cars would be so fast that the insurance people would have a cardiac arrest thinking of the liablitiies if one of the monsters ever left the race track into the stands......

[racefanfromnj]

my take on all of tis is it would be awesome to see no holds barred racecars,yeah great whos gonna pay for it?Can you convince some bean counter to break out the check book ? then as a previoius post said just what would the insurance weenies have to say about it all? unfortunately it jusy wont happen in our life time

[wedge]

I don't think it would be feasible today.

The huge gains have come from aero and electronics. Who wants a race series which comes down to who can number crunch the best from wind tunnels and the best software engineers who will take the skill away from the drivers?

If the majority don't want driver aids in F1 then why should we see it in endurance racing?

[Bob Riebe]

I don't think it would be feasible today.

The huge gains have come from aero and electronics. Who wants a race series which comes down to who can number crunch the best from wind tunnels and the best software engineers who will take the skill away from the drivers?

If the majority don't want driver aids in F1 then why should we see it in endurance racing?

It is all aero now because wide tires and truly powerful engines have been banned.
With wide enough tires and enough torque and horsepower, a car can go extremely fast and not be dependant on slot-car type aero effects, plus it is far more entertaining to watch truly skilled drivers put a car into high speed drifts and deliberate slides.
Greenwood said that when he built his winged cars, his old style of driving in which he could make the car do what he wanted (he drove the Daytona banking with the rear-end deliberately hanging out) had to be abandoned, as the wing forced a totally different style of driving.

It is odd, sanctions are pathetically afraid of high speeds on the straights, but write rules that allow high cornering speeds which are far more dangerous.
The Can-Am was never truly unlimited, but aerodynamics was originally open.
Bob

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is all aero now because wide tires and truly powerful engines have been banned.
With wide enough tires and enough torque and horsepower, a car can go extremely fast and not be dependant on slot-car type aero effects, plus it is far more entertaining to watch truly skilled drivers put a car into high speed drifts and deliberate slides.
Greenwood said that when he built his winged cars, his old style of driving in which he could make the car do what he wanted (he drove the Daytona banking with the rear-end deliberately hanging out) had to be abandoned, as the wing forced a totally different style of driving.

It is odd, sanctions are pathetically afraid of high speeds on the straights, but write rules that allow high cornering speeds which are far more dangerous.
The Can-Am was never truly unlimited, but aerodynamics was originally open.
Bob

So basically Bob you would be in favour of making every car flat bottomed with NO real aero aids? Heck...aint that NASCAR?? Just kidding. I would sign on for something like that, I would love to see race car drivers drift and slide the cars through turns...

[wedge]

So basically Bob you would be in favour of making every car flat bottomed with NO real aero aids? Heck...aint that NASCAR?? Just kidding. I would sign on for something like that, I would love to see race car drivers drift and slide the cars through turns...

AKA Grand Am/Daytona Prototypes?!

I must confess that I didn't quite like the idea of it at first. On paper its basically NASCAR-ized endurance racing. I watched the Barber Motorsports Park round the other day and I must admit I was really impressed.

[Bob Riebe]

AKA Grand Am/Daytona Prototypes?!

I must confess that I didn't quite like the idea of it at first. On paper its basically NASCAR-ized endurance racing. I watched the Barber Motorsports Park round the other day and I must admit I was really impressed.
IIEEEEEEEEE--not even close--ack-pfffft!

The fact is both GARA and the IMSA/ACO series are just as controlled only in different manners.
QUASI-SPEC--ACK-PFFFFT-POI!

Mark hit the nail; no wings, no underbody aero to glue the car to the road.

Flat bottom with BIG TIRES and BIG ENGINES.
Speed is controlled by the dirvers cajones.
Bob

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bob is right. A DP isn't even CLOSE to what he is after. I like the way Bob thinks, I just don't think it will happen with the way engineers like to sneak in aids to make cars faster. I think a modern Can AM car with few restrictions would be considered too much for the people who insure these events.

DP's are a joke of a race car for the most part, except they are fun to race by all accounts, and they are cheap. They also race pretty closely at times, so that is all that really counts. The fact they are strange looking and not actually blistering fast means nothing to most....but Bob remembers the good ole days when race cars were pushing the edge of an envelope where you had no idea where that edge was...

Now, the envelope is tiny, and everyone knows where it is....

[wedge]

Bob is right. A DP isn't even CLOSE to what he is after. I like the way Bob thinks, I just don't think it will happen with the way engineers like to sneak in aids to make cars faster. I think a modern Can AM car with few restrictions would be considered too much for the people who insure these events.

DP's are a joke of a race car for the most part, except they are fun to race by all accounts, and they are cheap. They also race pretty closely at times, so that is all that really counts. The fact they are strange looking and not actually blistering fast means nothing to most....but Bob remembers the good ole days when race cars were pushing the edge of an envelope where you had no idea where that edge was...

Now, the envelope is tiny, and everyone knows where it is....

I agree with you every little bit. Aero is ever so important these days. DPs look like Group C racers in 1980s in the same way IRL cars look like a 1990s F1 car. Mark, it's nice that you're falling in line with the COT in NASCAR :up:

Bob, there can be no denying that race cars should have more power than grip - preferably no aero aids.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree with you every little bit. Aero is ever so important these days. DPs look like Group C racers in 1980s in the same way IRL cars look like a 1990s F1 car. Mark, it's nice that you're falling in line with the COT in NASCAR :up:

Bob, there can be no denying that race cars should have more power than grip - preferably no aero aids.

Wedge, I had to follow my own judgement, not drink the kool aid like a couple of those guys who live on the NASCAR board do. I think the IRL car is the ugliest thing going for an OW car. They make DP's look good. I like the look of the Crawford in DP, even though the dimensions seem goofy to me.

Problem is, the Riley is the weapon of choice, and as time goes on, most of the teams seem to be going towards the Riley. I would like DP racing more if I could keep seeing different designs and an evolution of design, but alas, that is against the way the series works. It is why it will never be more than a sideshow in the world of sportscar racing. The racing may be good, but it is being raced by contrived cars without any manufacturer heritage.

[trumperZ06]

:D I may be lost... in the Wilderness... but

I'm hoping to see a re-birth of factory supported... Trans Am Racing.

Within a year or two... Ford/Mustangs, Chevy/Carmaros, and Dodge/Challengers will be available with Honking V-8's. Wouldn't be long before Honda, Toyota, and Nissian join in too.

Limit the rules to: direct from the Factory stock cars... with Vin numbers!!!

Allowing only adding safety equipment: such as brake pads, tires (stock sizes), full cage, and suspension adjustments for racing.

;) Then... let em Race.

[Bob Riebe]

:D I may be lost... in the Wilderness... but

I'm hoping to see a re-birth of factory supported... Trans Am Racing.

Within a year or two... Ford/Mustangs, Chevy/Carmaros, and Dodge/Challengers will be available with Honking V-8's. Wouldn't be long before Honda, Toyota, and Nissian join in too.

Limit the rules to: direct from the Factory stock cars... with Vin numbers!!!

Allowing only adding safety equipment: such as brake pads, tires (stock sizes), full cage, and suspension adjustments for racing.

;) Then... let em Race.

I agree, and I DISAGREE.

Hope someone restarts the Trans-Am--YES; as damn near showroom stock--ack-poi-pfft-snork--NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Something very similar to the old '66-72 rules, YES.
Body in white, then either RPO, or it has parts numbers available to anyone who walks into the dealer garage.

The fuel delivery part would get a bit tricky.
Bob

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bob, World Challenge to an extent is close to what Trans Am was. About half road car, half race car, only the handicapping would take away from what it was. I find those races a hell of a lot of fun, although I too would wish they didn't quite handicap the hell out of things.

[trumperZ06]

I agree, and I DISAGREE.

Hope someone restarts the Trans-Am--YES; as damn near showroom stock--ack-poi-pfft-snork--NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Something very similar to the old '66-72 rules, YES.
Body in white, then either RPO, or it has parts numbers available to anyone who walks into the dealer garage.

The fuel delivery part would get a bit tricky.
Bob

:dozey: Hhmmmm... not sure we wouldn't see history repeating itself with RPO parts.

;) IMO... Allowing the use of special "factory parts"... even with a part number... wouldn't stop having these racing parts ONLY available... under the counter.

:( This has happened... time & time again, Favored teams get the special parts due to a variety of reasons... Limited availability being one of the favorite excuses...

this giving one team an "Unfair Advantage".

[Bob Riebe]

:dozey: Hhmmmm... not sure we wouldn't see history repeating itself with RPO parts.

;) IMO... Allowing the use of special "factory parts"... even with a part number... wouldn't stop having these racing parts ONLY available... under the counter.

:( This has happened... time & time again, Favored teams get the special parts due to a variety of reasons... Limited availability being one of the favorite excuses...

this giving one team an "Unfair Advantage".
Do you mean like the Holley Dominator that was supposed to be a Ford-Holley exclusive but come race day there is was under the hood of the AMC cars?

ONE thing the old SCCA did have was scrutineers who were cold-blooded more oftent than not.
I spoke to Joe Chamberlain, and even with his Cat.II Corvette, after tube frames were allowed, they were incredibly picky.
THe tube frame was allowed, but every single pick-up point had to be with in a fraction of an inch of where it would have been with the original frame; therefore I think the effort that goes into an "unfair advantage" improve the racing.
Racing is not supposed to be fair, it is supposed to be competitive.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Riebe, racing is supposed to be competitive, but the RULES have to be the same for everyone. That said, when they handicap, it is unfair...but I guess when a body puts out the rules for a series, this is all part and parcel of participation. Don't show up for any series where they will add weight for wins if you don't like it...

[Bob Riebe]

Riebe, racing is supposed to be competitive, but the RULES have to be the same for everyone. That said, when they handicap, it is unfair...but I guess when a body puts out the rules for a series, this is all part and parcel of participation. Don't show up for any series where they will add weight for wins if you don't like it...

Smokey Yunick would probably have fallen over laughing at your first statement; for the second, they are not showing up in droves at IMSA races, so apparently they ARE listening to YOU.

It would seem YOU have the IRL and CC boys ears also.

Scary huh.

Sadly it seems the sanctions have forgotten that Detroit can live without racing, but racing is up fecal debri creek without Detroit.

Bob
PS--Fairness is for sixth grade playgrounds where they no longer keep score, so no one loses.
SCCA Spec. racing is as close to grade school fairness as racing gets, it is also only slightly less boring.
As was done up to the eightes, the rules were equal as could be, but no one gave damn if it was fair or not, they were all busy with how they would interpret the rules to their advantage.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Riebe...then fine, toss out the rules and see what happens. Go ahead...it aint the 60's now.

Face it, every series is going to have parameters for the engineers to build in. However, when one team wins every race because they have the better mousetrap, that clicking sound will be tv's going to another channel.

AS for Yunick, he was either a genius or a nut, and I cant decide. I do love Smokey Yunick stories tho, for he was the best at trying to twist the rules into what he wanted.

[wmcot]

Back on topic - the thing that I am amazed at is that I grew up during the Can-Am era and there sure seemed to be a lot more races every year than the record books show. Maybe I was just so impressed with the cars.