Overtaking may becaome a thing of the future

[Flat.tyres]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61511

[trumperZ06]

;) Lose the Aero (maybe reduce it by... say 50%)... and go back to slicks.

:dozey: The teams will each try to get an advantage over one another... which will likely result in a Status Quo !!!

[ChrisS]

I dont like the idea of switchable front wings, outlawing flaps, chimneys, winglets and bargeboards sounds good

[wmcot]

Looks like another huge expense in R&D and then we'll still end up with the faster cars at the front running away from the slower cars behind. F1, is like the rest of life, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Sleeper]

Well the loss of all those fiddley flaps and things should reduce the dependence on upper dodywork downforce and make the cars less sensitive to turbulance. I'm optomistic that these should at least help, but I'm not holding my breath.

[gloomyDAY]

A thing of the future? This should be happening NOW!

I'm tired of watching 70 lap parades.

[Valve Bounce]

I've been proposing this for bloody years.
Get rid of all those fiddly winglets and funnels, barge boards and diffusers and stipulate a horizontal rear wing with just a specidied depth for the wing profile. The rear wing is really necessary to carry advertisements and, therefore, cannot be eliminated.
Now if we can get rid of those automatic gearboxes somehow, then we will get a helluva lot of overtaking. You can put a less capable driver in a fast car, but he will lose out on downchanges while braking and cornering and then changing up while accelerating without Trax. Any mistake will allow the slower car with a better driver to get ahead; then the poorer driver in the faster car will get his chance in the straights to catch up.
If you have a six speed bocx and a driver has to manually change down to just second gear while braking, that will require a helluva lot of finesse not to lose time to a following car. Miss a gear change, and the guy behind gets a faster run out of hte corner and down the straight.

[ShiftingGears]

I've been proposing this for bloody years.
Get rid of all those fiddly winglets and funnels, barge boards and diffusers and stipulate a horizontal rear wing with just a specidied depth for the wing profile. The rear wing is really necessary to carry advertisements and, therefore, cannot be eliminated.
Now if we can get rid of those automatic gearboxes somehow, then we will get a helluva lot of overtaking. You can put a less capable driver in a fast car, but he will lose out on downchanges while braking and cornering and then changing up while accelerating without Trax. Any mistake will allow the slower car with a better driver to get ahead; then the poorer driver in the faster car will get his chance in the straights to catch up.
If you have a six speed bocx and a driver has to manually change down to just second gear while braking, that will require a helluva lot of finesse not to lose time to a following car. Miss a gear change, and the guy behind gets a faster run out of hte corner and down the straight.

Exactly. Also many circuits built for the purpose of assisting overtaking now (eg Bahrain and China) don't have flow so therefore the difference the driver can make in a lesser car at these circuits is much less than, say, Spa or the original Nurburgring. The driver making the difference is one of the things that people want from F1, and if Bernie and Tilke just build tracks that have lots of hairpins, then they reduce that scope and I think the audience and the drivers lose out.

Instead, what needs to happen is the cars need to be wider so that they have more feel. Which hopefully, when added with much lower downforce and an increase in power, will result in the cars sliding around on track. The fans would like that. As long as they LOOK fast and are spectacular. The problem with the change to the 2.4 L V8s is the fact that the cars are slower and still drive on rails. Which isn't that spectacular. Less speed on the straights + more speed in the corners reduces the overtaking opportunities.

Finally the tyres need to be harder so that theres less marbles. Which is the reason why cars for the most part cant take a different line to pass through corners.
Hopefully they do consider those points so F1 is improved for all involved.

[leopard]

I can't see anything wrong with what currently happens in todays' F1. The idea of more overtaking in four wheels would be something everyone have dreamed about than routinely watching 70 laps of parade.

Rather than consider it as boredom, the less overtaking is what makes F1 and four wheels sport is in its exclusivity than two wheels, besides it is just something inapplicable to make the same level of overtaking in car racing as bike.
The smart strategy being applied in every single race, plus every innovation made on the car, and the quality of the driver, are supposed to offset that less overtaking.

If the driver feels that there is another room where it earns some speed to overtake someone, furthermore in the typical of track supporting driver to make overtaking, like wide track, wide hairpin etc. overtaking can be made wherever and whenever the moment is right.

[leopard]

The tires and marbles proportion have been observed to make the best output instead of increasing and decreasing the component of either the tires or its rim of marbles. The more rubber will give more resistance on the ground while the more marble will give more burden than it should.

It only needs the driver to pick up more rubber to make the car rapidly running than change composition of the tires-marbles, just the basic ;)

[COD]

Sounds like engineers trying to find the most complicated solutions to a simple promblem (again!). But, the more complicated rules they manage to create, the more they will be paid to find solutions :laugh:

Simple thing: Small and unsophiticated wings like Champcar and Indy have had for years. Then loose the carbon brakes and bring back steelones to lengthen braking distance.

Even faster solution for almost immediate application would be to introduce a button that would allow the driver to get 500rpm more from the engine say 3/race.

Also a great idea would be to introduce sprinkler systems to all tracks. They would be used to create a "wet race" if the race is too boring otherwise. :D

[555-04Q2]

If you want overtaking, watch V8 Super Cars or Touring Cars. F1 is always all talk, no action.

[markabilly]

and then do away with the gearshift paddle, etc.

and require drivers to use the old heel and toe method to downshift

ban traction control and engine mapping for specific circuits(another form of traction control) :monkeedan

steel discs

ONE pit stop would be permitted, but no re-fueling of car, and ONLY one tire could be changed at the pit stop.

Will not happen ...F1 is now about the ultimate car, and not the ultimate driver......

[ShiftingGears]

Sounds like engineers trying to find the most complicated solutions to a simple promblem (again!). But, the more complicated rules they manage to create, the more they will be paid to find solutions :laugh:

Simple thing: Small and unsophiticated wings like Champcar and Indy have had for years. Then loose the carbon brakes and bring back steelones to lengthen braking distance.

Even faster solution for almost immediate application would be to introduce a button that would allow the driver to get 500rpm more from the engine say 3/race.

Also a great idea would be to introduce sprinkler systems to all tracks. They would be used to create a "wet race" if the race is too boring otherwise. :D

Drivers used to get an extra 300rpm just from being flat out in the slipstream of another car(albeit in the 1960's...) so I think the removing wings idea would be enough to handle that passing problem without gimmicks like push to pass and sprinklers. The steel brakes idea is a good one.

Also harder tyres to lessen marbles should be used.

If it was up to me I'd get rid of all the wings so there'd be a fraction of the grip there is now, and if people wanted the average lap speeds up, the cars would be put on faster circuits :D

[longisland]

I'd suggest to introduce a new race format. All teams will have 2 races just like in GP2. The first race is the short 20 laps race in a standard Lola chassis & Corsworth V8 engine car. The second race will be a full race with the manufacturer's car as usual. The starting grid for both races will base on the staturday qualifying position in the manufacturer's car. Only the top 3 will be awarded points, 4 for winner, 2, & 1 for the runners up.
The first race will give an opportunity for the smaller teams to score some points and let their drivers showcase their skill on a more levelled playing field.
Call it F1.5 if you will. It will cost more for all teams to run an extra race but I believed it's more value for money to the smaller teams.
As of now, I can't see a team like spyker having any chance of scoring a single point with 2 seconds off the pace.
Changing the regulations will only increase the gap between the well funded big teams & the smaller ones.
I doubt this will ever happen as detractors will always claim that GP2 is doing exactly that. My arguement is, with this format, you don't have to ban all the gadgets in the featured race, which makes F1 the pinnacle of motorsport, and
you may see more wheel to wheel action in the short race.

[Flat.tyres]

Drivers used to get an extra 300rpm just from being flat out in the slipstream of another car(albeit in the 1960's...) so I think the removing wings idea would be enough to handle that passing problem without gimmicks like push to pass and sprinklers. The steel brakes idea is a good one.

Also harder tyres to lessen marbles should be used.

If it was up to me I'd get rid of all the wings so there'd be a fraction of the grip there is now, and if people wanted the average lap speeds up, the cars would be put on faster circuits :D

slipstream is a funny problem these days because all cars run at 19k RPM. they are all capable of running faster but are limited otherwise they get disqualified so I dont really know what benefit slipstreaming would make these days.

of course, that depends if they have similar gearing and wing but if your running trim then its fair to suppose your corner exit will be compromised meaning you will miss the tow.

limiting engines to 19k makes the sport more boring and actually more dangerous if you think about it. ironic when you consider that it was supposed to make it safer.

as for steel brakes, they dont have much of a performance difference over material / ceramics. true, they cannot dispel heat as quite as fast but the difference is not as great as you would think. composites are a lot safer though as they have less mass, hence energy in a crash and in a crash, you want as little energy in those wheels and suspension as possible.

[ShiftingGears]

slipstream is a funny problem these days because all cars run at 19k RPM. they are all capable of running faster but are limited otherwise they get disqualified so I dont really know what benefit slipstreaming would make these days.

of course, that depends if they have similar gearing and wing but if your running trim then its fair to suppose your corner exit will be compromised meaning you will miss the tow.

limiting engines to 19k makes the sport more boring and actually more dangerous if you think about it. ironic when you consider that it was supposed to make it safer.

as for steel brakes, they dont have much of a performance difference over material / ceramics. true, they cannot dispel heat as quite as fast but the difference is not as great as you would think. composites are a lot safer though as they have less mass, hence energy in a crash and in a crash, you want as little energy in those wheels and suspension as possible.


Yeah, theres no silver bullet for the brakes issue, so it'd be a much tougher issue to try to solve. Drum brakes could be considered, but they fall under the disadvantages of what you just mentioned. Might work in reintroducing the term "last of the late brakers" in F1 though.
And I agree about the engine rules - theyre quite dumb. The FIA spent ages trying to find ways to slow the cars down in races (and usually making the racing worse), and they found a solution that was actually effective (tyre rules in 2005) and they scrapped it for 2006! Very hypocritical.

And I suppose a technological compromise would have to be met somewhere - people want F1 to be the pinnacle of technology but if you only allow flat, one piece wings without winglets then you've pretty much removed the last outlet for innovation on an F1 car.
My other idea is to relax most of the regulations for designing a car and hopefully you'll get better/more unpredictable racing.
So it will be interesting to see how the FIA will attempt to solve this problem (and hopefully it doesn't involve putting more hairpins in existing circuits!)

Also I think teams being able to enter a third driver for the race on race weekends would be good. Only the highest two placed drivers from that team will be eligible for points, but I think it would be a better way to get drivers used to racing an F1 car as opposed to - doing thousands of test kilometres racing against the clock.

[93VTEC]

A lot of people here seem to be suggesting F1 go backwards. Steele discs, flats, wider cars, manual gearboxes......Why not just bring old 70s cars, might as well, because that is what some here are describing.
I always though that F1 was about being innovative and pushing the envelope. I would love to see more passing, but not at the expense of innovation and development.

[Sleeper]

I'd like to point out a couple things.

For those who are talking about slipstreaming, remember that the cars are set up so that at the end of the longest streight of any given track they are just about on the rev limiter, and the cars have been set up that way, to make full use of the engine, for some years now, the 19k limit didnt change this.

Also, Williams tested steel brakes some time ago (10-15 years I think) and found that the performance was identical to carbon/ ceramic brakes, though there might have been more of a drop off, but they could probably change that now.

I have often said that the key to better racing is change the emphasis of aero from the upper body work, that results in the myriad of flaps and horns and stuff, and use the floor of the car to produce as much as 75% of the total downforce. Downforce produced this way creates less rportianolly less drag and therfore less turbulance to foul up the front wing and aero of a following car, which wouldnt be to heavely relying on the wings anyway. It wont make overtacking easy, but it will make more of a chance for passing. Just my 2 cence.

[Flat.tyres]

A lot of people here seem to be suggesting F1 go backwards. Steele discs, flats, wider cars, manual gearboxes......Why not just bring old 70s cars, might as well, because that is what some here are describing.
I always though that F1 was about being innovative and pushing the envelope. I would love to see more passing, but not at the expense of innovation and development.

we are stuck in a bit of a circle.

the FIA doesn't want cars to go too fast so they limit the RPM of the engine. this means that cars run more wing in the corners where the majority of crashes happen hence increasing the speed of accidents.

they play about, tweak and twiddle the regs with no real understanding of what they are trying to do.

what do we want from F1. more overtaking, best technology, innovation, more driver input, the best driver winning, the best car winning?

we support teams but that means we invaribly support a manufacturer who wants their brand to succeed. so does that mean we want the best car to win?

some people support a driver so do we want the best driver to win.

most people like to see a good race with overtaking in so do we want less driver aids so people have to use their driving skill to keep these things on the island and what about the people interested in the pinnacle of motorsport from a technology point of view.

F1 is different things to different people but as for the technology and innovation, I think a lot of people will trade this off for more action, more driver input and a closely fought battle. were only going to do this by limiting the aero downforce a car produces and the disruption on the following car.

[Andrewmcm]

I have often said that the key to better racing is change the emphasis of aero from the upper body work, that results in the myriad of flaps and horns and stuff, and use the floor of the car to produce as much as 75% of the total downforce. Downforce produced this way creates less rportianolly less drag and therfore less turbulance to foul up the front wing and aero of a following car, which wouldnt be to heavely relying on the wings anyway. It wont make overtacking easy, but it will make more of a chance for passing. Just my 2 cence.

Some simplistic ideas:

Limited venturi tunnels under the car - they worked well in CART when tightly regulated so should be fine in F1. It's not really a case of porducing less turbulence, the venturis tend to re-laminarise the flow and thus are more efficient at producing downforce when closely following a car.

Banning of any aerodynamic devices on the upper body of the car above the horizontal plane of the wheelnuts between the vertical planes of the rear of the front wheel and the front of the rear wheel, including aerodynamic suspension parts. Cooling chimneys also banned, as this would force bigger radiators to be used, hence more drag and a larger tow for following cars.

Slick tyres - no brainer really.

[leopard]

A lot of people here seem to be suggesting F1 go backwards. Steele discs, flats, wider cars, manual gearboxes......Why not just bring old 70s cars, might as well, because that is what some here are describing.
I always though that F1 was about being innovative and pushing the envelope. I would love to see more passing, but not at the expense of innovation and development.

Yeah, will that mechanical force of steel brake system would be able to work effectively for the speed of F1 car.

[ShiftingGears]

Why not just bring old 70s cars.
Then you'd have to bring back old circuits, and some mightn't like that ;)


Most of the regulations don't allow innovation anyway - any improvements that are made are generally as a result of hours in the windtunnel and not by some bold, Chapmanesque design ideas.
I don't think replacing the aero with flat wings (or no wings) and making the engine rules less restrictive wouldn't hinder innovation any more than now. Should improve passing as well.

Another thing that hinders overtaking is drivers who block other drivers, but that's another issue.

[Sleeper]

Some simplistic ideas:

Limited venturi tunnels under the car - they worked well in CART when tightly regulated so should be fine in F1. It's not really a case of porducing less turbulence, the venturis tend to re-laminarise the flow and thus are more efficient at producing downforce when closely following a car.

Banning of any aerodynamic devices on the upper body of the car above the horizontal plane of the wheelnuts between the vertical planes of the rear of the front wheel and the front of the rear wheel, including aerodynamic suspension parts. Cooling chimneys also banned, as this would force bigger radiators to be used, hence more drag and a larger tow for following cars.

Slick tyres - no brainer really.
What I was getting at seems to be the asame as you, the shift of emphasis on downforce production from the upper bodywork, which seems to be far more sensative to changes in the air stream (like turbulance from the car infront) to the floor which seems to be less sensitive.