Conspiracy?

[call_me_andrew]

It seems the Busch Series practise was cancelled due to rain. I know they had rain tires at Mexico and I could have sworn I saw wiper mounts at Montreal. On NASCAR Live John Roberts (SPEED Channel guy, not the Cheif Justice of the Suprme Court) made some comment about a lack of rain tires because of windshield fog (even thought they've since gotten defrosters post-Suzuka). NASCAR seems to refuse to volunteer any information unless it's related to the flavor of the day. Why can't we have the truth?

I mean I know the truth, I just wish they were honest with everyone.

[Lee Roy]

Just pull your tin-foil hat down a little tighter.

[Aussie12]

...Why can't we have the truth?

Truth? NA$CAR says we can't handle the truth! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[RaceFanStan]

The truth is that rain tires do NOT exist, people should get over it ! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif
If a person can't accept NASCAR the way it is, don't whine about it, just so somewhere else. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif
It rained in Watkins Glen & qualifying was cancelled, it's no big deal ! :D

Qualifying getting rained-out has happened several times this year ...
and it happened several times at some tracks last year ...
and the year before that ... and the year before that ... and the year before that ...
and the year before that ... and the year before that ... and the year before that ...
and the year before that ... and the year before that ... and the year before that ...
and the year before that ... and the year before that ... and the year before that ...
and the year before that ... and the year before that ... and the year before that ...
Face it, qualifying sometimes rains-out as NASCAR can't control the weather !
Furthermore let me say, when a plan works there is no need to change it ! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

Conspiracy you say ?
No, it is just an opportunity for the critics of NASCAR to spew more rumors. :s

[call_me_andrew]

The truth is that rain tires do NOT exist, people should get over it !

Road course rain tires are not a myth! I've seen them!

http://www.autoracing1.com/images/2000/NASCAR/gy1_800.jpg

[geek49203]

I mean I know the truth, I just wish they were honest with everyone.

While the conspiracy theories are lots of fun, the truth is that NASCAR isn't set up for the rain, doesn't test in the rain, has no experience in the ran, and therefore, doesn't want to run in the rain.

[call_me_andrew]

While the conspiracy theories are lots of fun, the truth is that NASCAR isn't set up for the rain, doesn't test in the rain, has no experience in the ran, and therefore, doesn't want to run in the rain.

They do have experience and they have tested in the past. Don't forget the France family also owns Grand-Am.

[geek49203]

They do have experience and they have tested in the past. Don't forget the France family also owns Grand-Am.

Okay, please tell me what races they've run in the rain in the past 5 years.... NASCAR guys, in NASCAR vehicles, NOT Grand-Am guys in Grand-Am vehicles....

I'm telling you, NASCAR knows that nothing good will come from it, the crowds won't be there, there will be tons of damage, etc.

The better question is, "Why didn't they qualify on Saturday morning"....

[e2mtt]

I think they should run in the rain. It would be pretty cool... but I realize NASCAR isn't set up for it, and it would be a mess.

On the other hand, I really think they should try harder to get qualifying in, even if they have to run earlier or later then scheduled.

[call_me_andrew]

Okay, please tell me what races they've run in the rain in the past 5 years.... NASCAR guys, in NASCAR vehicles, NOT Grand-Am guys in Grand-Am vehicles....


How about NASCAR guys in Grand-Am vehicles?

Here's a better question: When did they get the chance? When I watch a race at Sears Point, I wonder if that track has seen any rain in the last 5 years.

[Jonesi]

How about NASCAR guys in Grand-Am vehicles?

Here's a better question: When did they get the chance? When I watch a race at Sears Point, I wonder if that track has seen any rain in the last 5 years.

Not that time of year. That part of the Bay Area probably only sees one mild drizzle between May & Nov.

[ShiftingGears]

Why was quali completely cancelled if it was raining on a road course? Was the rain really that heavy?

[RaceFanStan]

Hey ug, tires with no tread won't grip a wet racetrack. :D

[BenRoethig]

Why was quali completely cancelled if it was raining on a road course? Was the rain really that heavy?

Depending on how long it rains, cars could receive a major advantage depending on when they go out. They will run race laps with rain tires, but not qualifying. Also, NASCAR does not use F1-style group qualifying for the cup series.

[Chandler]

I mean I know the truth, I just wish they were honest with everyone.

Yep, everything in NASCAR is one big conspiracy... but wait! If the people who run NASCAR (hundreds of people by the way) are all in on it, then how can they keep it secret? I know two people who know a secret and that thing gets across town faster than the local train.

OH WAIT! I know!! They have all taken a blood oath to not tell ANY of NASCAR's big secrets, just like the Masons!!! YEAH!!! Cause you know, those Masons are all taking over the world...

Wait.... when the Masons get together for a meeting, they can't agree on whether to serve doughnuts, muffins, or bagels... surely they aren't controlling the world, let alone keeping secrets that big.

Hmm... if the Masons can't do it, then wonder how NASCAR can?!?!?

COME ON!!! Give the conspiracy theories a rest! They aren't gonna run in the rain, period. End of story.

NASCAR lives and breathes by the people who put their butts in the seats, and if it's raining, no one comes out to watch the race. So there you go, you have your answer. No people, no money. No rain, no people. No rain, No race.

[call_me_andrew]

Hey ug, tires with no tread won't grip a wet racetrack. :D

Good thing they started putting teads in those things (see picture I already posted).

Let's say you bought tickets for an August race last March. Are you going to stay home just because it looks rainy on Sunday morning? You've already paid for the tickets, and they're not refundable. Wether you show up at the track or not, you've already put money in someone's pocket.

I've sat through a five hour rain delay at Nazareth, a rain delayed start at Pocono followed by anothe rain delay that made the race over 5 hours long, and a complete rain out at Pocono where I waited at the track for about 5 hours before we were finally told to come back on Monday. So don't tell me what people are going to show up for.

[RaceFanStan]

I'll wait the rain out if I am at the track. :D
There are all kinds of venders under the stands. :D
However I have no desire to sit in the stands during a pouring rain trying to watch a race.

[muggle not]

There is "ONE" person that runs Nascar. Always has been and probably always will be. It is a dictatorship and you can take it or leave it, but that is the way it is. Anyone that thinks 100's of people run it must have their head between their legs and where the sun doesn't shine. There are hundreds of people that work for Nascar but only one that runs it.

[geek49203]

There is "ONE" person that runs Nascar. Always has been and probably always will be. It is a dictatorship and you can take it or leave it, but that is the way it is. Anyone that thinks 100's of people run it must have their head between their legs and where the sun doesn't shine. There are hundreds of people that work for Nascar but only one that runs it.

There have been comparisons, by people who will NEVER admit to it, between the France family and certain families of Italian ancestry who reside in New Jersey, run casinos, etc. There is no doubt when you're in the garage, pits or press room of a NASCAR event who is running the show. They can make your life very nice, or put you out of business, or worst of all, leave you inside of NASCAR but struggling at the bottom.

Mike Helton is the size of a medium-income house. Seriously. At least 6'6" (2m?) tall, and at least 300 pounds after his diet. He'd make a great bouncer at a biker convention at a strip bar. He's also got the command presence that Roger Penske had in his prime -- picture Darth Vadar walking onto the death star, and you've got the idea.

[Sparky1329]

There have been comparisons, by people who will NEVER admit to it, between the France family and certain families of Italian ancestry who reside in New Jersey, run casinos, etc. There is no doubt when you're in the garage, pits or press room of a NASCAR event who is running the show. They can make your life very nice, or put you out of business, or worst of all, leave you inside of NASCAR but struggling at the bottom.

Mike Helton is the size of a medium-income house. Seriously. At least 6'6" (2m?) tall, and at least 300 pounds after his diet. He'd make a great bouncer at a biker convention at a strip bar. He's also got the command presence that Roger Penske had in his prime -- picture Darth Vadar walking onto the death star, and you've got the idea.

That's why I call them the Daytona Sopranos. :D

[Aussie12]

I'm glad they don't test/practice/race in the rain. Can you imagine Daytona or 'Dega in a downpour?

You never know about the COT, though. "They" (NASCAR PTB) might have it in their grand plan to race in the rain once the COT testing is through...

[ShiftingGears]

Hey ug, tires with no tread won't grip a wet racetrack. :D

Lucky rain tyres exist then.

What attracts me to rain races is that the lack of grip seperates the drivers with a better feel for their car from the average drivers, moreso than dry conditions. But that might spread the field out too much ;)

[tassiedevilAB]

Why was quali completely cancelled if it was raining on a road course? Was the rain really that heavy?

Jeffypoo was in the pace car & radioed back to them that some parts of the track were drying but other sections were damp, he had a few drops hit the windscrren & screamed back to the tower that it was to wet to run the Quals, yeah that was reported on Nascar .com & he said he was glad they mad the dissision. if that were the facts what a low life he is knowing he had pole & wasn't going to get in the top 5 & robby gordon & Smoke would have had a good time !

These things can not be deliberated with the points leader, it has to be all the drivers to take a vote! to qual or no qual, & as so many have said before why not run it on Sat. all they had to do was miss out on a practice!

[tassiedevilAB]

I'm glad they don't test/practice/race in the rain. Can you imagine Daytona or 'Dega in a downpour?

You never know about the COT, though. "They" (NASCAR PTB) might have it in their grand plan to race in the rain once the COT testing is through...

Heah mate, this chat isn't about those ovals it is about why not run the raod course in the rain, It was said if it rained in Mexico & Montreal that the wet tires were already availablr , & seeing they didn't use them there that goodyear were going to have them available for the Buschies if needed!

Seems to me Nascar says one thing & turns around & dinies it!

[muggle not]

msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/7119022

NASCAR giving Gordon a real test by Lee Spencer

"WATKINS GLEN, N.Y. - You can't keep a good racer down.

But if NASCAR has a whipping boy, it would be Robby Gordon. He was clearly jobbed at Montreal, but the pettiness of NASCAR testing its obedience lesson on him at Watkins Glen on Sunday was just vindictive.

With 14 laps remaining in the Centurion Boats at the Glen, NASCAR forced Gordon to line up in the ninth position behind Greg Biffle.

A little background: The No. 16 (Biffle) hadn't moved from 19th position from Lap 50 to Lap 60 while the No. 7 (Gordon) jumped from 27th to 12th in the same period. Through the next four laps, as cars pitted in front of Gordon and Biffle, they moved to eighth and ninth, respectively, in the running order.

When second-place Jeremy Mayfield pitted on the following lap, Kurt Busch moved into second behind leader Jeff Gordon. On Lap 64, third-place Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s engine failed. During that same lap, Caution 5 was called for debris following an altercation between Clint Bowyer and Ryan Newman. Busch, who entered the race seven points ahead of the sidelined Earnhardt, pitted for fuel, was slapped with a "speeding" penalty and was forced to restart 30th on Lap 67.

By then, Gordon had climbed to eighth. One lap later, Kyle Petty's engine failed and Caution 6 flew for oil on the track. Gordon remained eighth throughout the multi-car crash that prompted Caution 7 (which lasted from Laps 74 to 77 and included a 26-minute red-flag period on Lap 76) and led to a shoving match between Kevin Harvick and Juan Pablo Montoya.

During the red-flag delay, one of Gordon's crewmen commented over the radio: NASCAR's got a couple of new bad boys to worry about.

But Gordon prognosticated, "I'm sure I'll be on the 'A' list for a while."

Gordon didn't know how right he was. Shock was the first emotion expressed on Gordon's channel when NASCAR tested the team with the directive to cede the No. 7's eighth-place position to Biffle. Then silence.

"I just want to know if that's a new rule," Gordon asked his crew. "Unbelievable. Are you sure they don't want to put someone else in front of me?"

Certainly, the sanctioning body was testing Gordon's willingness to comply Sunday afternoon — after he had repeatedly ignored NASCAR's black flags and instructions to fall back to 13th position late in the Aug. 4 Busch race at Montreal.

According to Kerry Tharp, NASCAR director of public relations, "On Lap 72, the 7 is ahead of the 16, they go down into Turn 1 and the caution comes out. The field is frozen and the 7 has lost a spot to the 16. While he may have been riding ahead of the 16 during the caution, he was placed in his proper postion (behind the 16) before they resumed to green flag racing."

But neither Gordon nor timing and scoring in the media center picked up on the change.

On Aug. 5, Gordon was parked at Pocono, then fined $35,000 and placed on probation with "the stipulation that if, during the remaining NASCAR events in 2007, there is another action by Gordon that is deemed by NASCAR officials as detrimental to stock car racing or to NASCAR, or is disruptive to the orderly conduct of an event, he will be suspended indefinitely from NASCAR."

Screwing with Gordon on a road course is asking for trouble. But Gordon opted for the high road — chicanes and all. He collected himself, reminded the team, "It's their sandbox and we just played in it," then issued the warning: the 16 better be prepared to move over.

Crew chief Gene Nead replied, "Take no prisoners!"

And Gordon did just that. Despite a bad pit stop exacerbated by engine, ignition and brake issues, Gordon easily overtook Biffle and his Roush-Fenway teammate, Matt Kenseth, in short order.

By Lap 80, Gordon had moved up to sixth as the eighth and final caution flag waved after P.J. Jones spun in the inner loop. With eight circuits remaining in the race, Gordon lined up behind Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Denny Hamlin, Carl Edwards and Jimmie Johnson.

After the crew advised Gordon of his position, the driver asked, "They won't make anyone go in front of me?"

Nead answered, "No, but they'd like you to pass the 48 (Johnson), 99 (Edwards) and 11 (Hamlin) before the day's over."

With a challenge from behind by Ron Fellows on Lap 85, who was powered by a Joe Gibbs Racing engine, Gordon relinquished the sixth position. But he remained patient, working diligently with the equipment he had. As the No. 24 (Jeff Gordon) spun out with two laps to go, Robby Gordon regained the sixth position. On the final lap, Edwards pushed a bit too hard and slid into the gravel in Turn 10, opening the door for Gordon to finish a season-high fifth.

"It didn't take long to pass them. I told the guys we would get two or three on the first lap — and that's exactly what we did," Gordon said. "Unfortunately, I used up my brakes trying to get there. I'm not sure what that call was about. Maybe they went all the way back to the start-finish line, but I don't get it.

"My car bobbled and misfired and a couple of 'em made a jump on me, but I passed them all right back in Turn 1. I don't think (Biffle) was ever in front of me, but what are you going to do? Time and again they pull this stuff, what do you want me to do?"

Just keep your helmet held high and race."

[call_me_andrew]

I'm glad they don't test/practice/race in the rain. Can you imagine Daytona or 'Dega in a downpour?

As Tassie said, this is about road courses and not ovals.

But I have considered Daytona and Talladega in the rain. Really, they don't need to lift in the turns with minimal lateral g-loading as is, so losing some grip isn't necessarily a bad thing there.

[ShiftingGears]

As Tassie said, this is about road courses and not ovals.

But I have considered Daytona and Talladega in the rain. Really, they don't need to lift in the turns with minimal lateral g-loading as is, so losing some grip isn't necessarily a bad thing there.

Uhh...

Aquaplaning?

[call_me_andrew]

Yes theugsquirrel, that's why treads were invented.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the idea of seeing a Cup Car at full throttle on rain tires at Talladega would be something......a nightmare for anyone who tried to follow. CAn you imagine the spray from 43 cars?? Good lord guys....give your head a shake.

NASCAR has no plans to ever let these guys run in the rain on a oval, and I doubt HIGHLY we will ever see them on rains on a road course. Just do not believe they will have the balls to allow it to happen.

[call_me_andrew]

I'm not so worried about the spray as I am making sure the cars at the back of the pack can keep their tires wet.

They might do it at Mexico City.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Andrew, I was at the Glen in the mid 90's when it rained on the Saturday, and Mark Martin and Dale Sr. took their cars out for a few laps on the wets. The teams had put on wipers and they went out, and it looked very slow. Why? Because Cup cars are undertired even on dry pavement. On wets, they just lost so much cornering performance that I wonder if they wouldn't spend half the race picking up guys that go off. I think the problems are not easy to solve. You also have an issue of fogging, which Big E had if memory serves me correct. No, as much as I would love to watch NASCAR in the rain, I think it would a lot of yellows with the odd RED and Green flag. I just don't see if they wouldn't lose the whole essence of NASCAR. That said, if they do, watch guys like Ron Fellows and Boris Said run away and hide from all but maybe Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart....

[call_me_andrew]

I'm sure they had some issues with fogging then, but that was the first time out. If the C6-R can run in the rain with out fogging, then a stock car wouldn't be far off. It's safe to assume they would run way slow becuase that had never driven race cars in rain before. The main issues are going to come from construction of the sidewalls and the tread, but that's on Goodyear's head.

[ShiftingGears]

Yes theugsquirrel, that's why treads were invented.

Yes, and aquaplaning still happens. The speeds would be incredibly high and the cars would only need to aquaplane on the smallest stream of water for an instant for them to be pitched into the wall. Also if the cars get bumped it would be very very easy to crash. Plus low visibility due to the spray...

If NASCAR did an oval race in the rain they'd be either extremely ballsy or stupid.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm sure they had some issues with fogging then, but that was the first time out. If the C6-R can run in the rain with out fogging, then a stock car wouldn't be far off. It's safe to assume they would run way slow becuase that had never driven race cars in rain before. The main issues are going to come from construction of the sidewalls and the tread, but that's on Goodyear's head.

The C6 has a/c in it now and has always had defrosting vents and ductwork. It isn't a stock car like a COT or regular Cup car is. It is much more like its road going counterpart on stuff like that.

The problem is the tires used vs the size of the car. The C6 is about 2/3's the weight and yet has tires that are probably close to twice as big. It is just not feasible for Goodyear to get a wet tire that would give enough grip to provide decent racing based on the rim size as mandated by NASCAR. The cars are just too heavy and now even more upright than they should be to race in the rain.

[Nick Brad]

I just thought i'd throw my tuppence in.

In the UK, we do have races taking place in the rain on the 1.5 mile oval at Rockingham from the spaceframed pickup series. Admittedly these are only powered by a 2.0 litre engine and speeds up to 140mph, but they manage to do it fine without any more incidents than in the dry.
With the amount of money and R&D facilities at Goodyear's disposal, there's no reason to think they couldn't come up with a suitable tyre for the wet. Road courses should be a no brainer, just run them. If the UK stopped for every shower then very little racing would ever take place.

[muggle not]

Yep, put fog lights and rain tires on the cars and let them go at it. :rolleyes:

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree, I would love to see it happen, but NASCAR will think there will be a ton of yellows and a lot wrecks and it would upset the order of things. Lets face it, as I said above, NASCAR Cup cars have a TON of power and lots of weight, and not a lot of tire. All of that means they are sliding and skittering around on dry pavement. Even with the best tires Goodyear can develop, it would be slippery going, probably more trecherous than other types of race cars on rain tires. No, as much as I would like to see it happen, I can kind of get where they are coming from.......

[call_me_andrew]

The C6 has a/c in it now and has always had defrosting vents and ductwork. It isn't a stock car like a COT or regular Cup car is. It is much more like its road going counterpart on stuff like that.

The problem is the tires used vs the size of the car. The C6 is about 2/3's the weight and yet has tires that are probably close to twice as big. It is just not feasible for Goodyear to get a wet tire that would give enough grip to provide decent racing based on the rim size as mandated by NASCAR. The cars are just too heavy and now even more upright than they should be to race in the rain.

I'm well aware the C6 is lighter. But of all the cars in LMGT1, it has had the hottest interior temperatures. I think the narrow tires could have some advantages over wide tires in the rain. By keeping the car's weight in a smaller contact patch, the cars become less prone to hydroplaning.

Here's an article about the rain tires used in Japan. http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/1589_rain_tires_good_year/

Considering they didn't have any defrosting system then, and they do now, I'd say it's not too far fetched.

[harvick#1]

maybe Badyear needs to leave, they should easily have the technology to make a rain Tire :rolleyes:

maybe its time for Bridgestone, or Michelin to take over the tire war cause Badyear makes some bad tire choices for alot of races

the 24 hours of Lemans this year was a wet race and everyone was still running on the course, the GT1's and GT2's along with the Protos had a few problems with the rain but thats what happens.

[call_me_andrew]

I think that was more about standing water than rain.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I would like to see NASCAR try, but I do buy a lot of the argument they have against it.....not to mention the misery of the paying customers that would have to sit there getting wet while the race is on....

[call_me_andrew]

Given the choices of sitting in the rain and watching the pavement soak up water and sitting in the rain and watching a race, I think most people would choose the latter.

[RaceFanStan]

It would seem that some people aren't smart enough to know to get out of the rain ..... http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/orn/00.gif

[Mark in Oshawa]

Stan...real race cars work in the rain....