Porsche sez they are not likely to win @ R/A

[trumperZ06]

Porsche's LMP 2 teams expect to trail the Audi's LMP1 cars @ Road America this weekend.

After winning the last 5 ALMS races on shorter steet tracks and twisty road courses... Porsche says Audi's should be favored at the longer R/A course with its long straights.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Porsche's LMP 2 teams expect to trail the Audi's LMP1 cars @ Road America this weekend.

After winning the last 5 ALMS races on shorter steet tracks and twisty road courses... Porsche says Audi's should be favored at the longer R/A course with its long straights.


Gee, and under other remarkable comments, the sun will come up tomorrow. Lets face it, The R10 is a rocketship in the top end and Road America is all about top end. I am surprised anyone would have to read Porsche's pr guy to figure this out.....

[trumperZ06]

Gee, and under other remarkable comments, the sun will come up tomorrow. Lets face it, The R10 is a rocketship in the top end and Road America is all about top end. I am surprised anyone would have to read Porsche's pr guy to figure this out.....

;) Hhmmmm...Mark,

Did you see that Roger Penske's Porsche LMP2 team...

with drivers Romain Dumas & Timo Bernhard ignored Porsche's PR release & your opinion !!!

They sucessfully drove the Porsche RS Spyder to first place at Road America yesterday, finishing just ahead of the Audi's R10 TD1 !!!


Cya @ the track,

Trumper

[harvick#1]

Porsche took fuel only while Audi took 4 tires and fuel and the gamble worked, hats off to Porsche on the win

[siberiankiss]

i was definitely surprised the porsche guys pulled it off!!!

[wmcot]

They have to stop penalizing the LMP1 cars or those manufacturers will simply leave the series. Audi can't really be happy when they're beaten by LMP2 cars that can carry more fuel and can refuel faster because they don't have restrictors on their fuel lines. The ALMS rules makers must allow P1 cars to be P1 cars!

I think they also need to look into why Penske aren't using E10 fuel like the Dyson team which makes them consistently faster.

[siberiankiss]

They have to stop penalizing the LMP1 cars or those manufacturers will simply leave the series. Audi can't really be happy when they're beaten by LMP2 cars that can carry more fuel and can refuel faster because they don't have restrictors on their fuel lines. The ALMS rules makers must allow P1 cars to be P1 cars!

I think they also need to look into why Penske aren't using E10 fuel like the Dyson team which makes them consistently faster.

I agree with you there... the P2 cars really should not be consistently beating P1 cars...

[luvracin]

They have to stop penalizing the LMP1 cars or those manufacturers will simply leave the series. Audi can't really be happy when they're beaten by LMP2 cars that can carry more fuel and can refuel faster because they don't have restrictors on their fuel lines. The ALMS rules makers must allow P1 cars to be P1 cars!

I think they also need to look into why Penske aren't using E10 fuel like the Dyson team which makes them consistently faster.

Exactly. The whole point of Audi's R10 program was to prove to the world that Diesels can be fast, clean and fuel efficient. So by penalising them because they actually did what they set out to do is not helpful.

At the same time, Penske not using E10 gives them a fuel consumption advantage(albeit minor) over every other LMP car that does use E10.

That said though... if the race was one lap longer, those Porsches would have been blown into the weeds.

[Bob Riebe]

They have to stop penalizing the LMP1 cars or those manufacturers will simply leave the series. Audi can't really be happy when they're beaten by LMP2 cars that can carry more fuel and can refuel faster because they don't have restrictors on their fuel lines. The ALMS rules makers must allow P1 cars to be P1 cars!

I think they also need to look into why Penske aren't using E10 fuel like the Dyson team which makes them consistently faster.

It is supposed to be automobile competition in which the best car wins; not the old Mobil Economy Run or some hackneyed SCCA spec. class.

It is already to clost to either of the above and some are bitching because best effort beat the skewed rules.
No wonder sacnctions keep making more and more draconian rules for contrived competition, fans are ignorant that the fudge they are being served is Butt, not chocolate.
How sad.

Bob

[Mark in Oshawa]

;) Hhmmmm...Mark,

Did you see that Roger Penske's Porsche LMP2 team...

with drivers Romain Dumas & Timo Bernhard ignored Porsche's PR release & your opinion !!!

They sucessfully drove the Porsche RS Spyder to first place at Road America yesterday, finishing just ahead of the Audi's R10 TD1 !!!


Cya @ the track,

Trumper

I thought of my post when I watched the race, and I thought, oh god, I will hear about it for THAT one.

Kudo's to Penske for a superior pit strategy,but make no mistake, car to car the r10 should BURY any LMP2 car at Road America on pure speed.

I will see the boys race at Mosport next weekend, and I suspect another good race could be in the offing. The Audi guys cant get around their fuel restrictions and the Porsches are just fast enough to make life interesting...If only Dyson used the same fuel as Penske...

[wmcot]

It is supposed to be automobile competition in which the best car wins; not the old Mobil Economy Run or some hackneyed SCCA spec. class.

It is already to clost to either of the above and some are bitching because best effort beat the skewed rules.
No wonder sacnctions keep making more and more draconian rules for contrived competition, fans are ignorant that the fudge they are being served is Butt, not chocolate.
How sad.

Bob

Last year the GT1 Corvettes and Aston Martins were saddled with weight penalties whenever either on looked like they might pull ahead in the class.

[Mark in Oshawa]

wmcot, Bob's whole theory on here is you run what you have, you design what you think works, and rules should be guidelines only....he is the biggest proponent of going back to honking big motors, no aero and let the driver with the biggest gonads be the factor. Today's IMSA/ALMS gives us cars that remind us of Can-Am, but with rules like weight penalties, air restriction for the motors and constant mucking around with the rules, it is anything but like what we had in Can-Am. I hated the way the weight penalties were applied in GT1. At some point, getting beat forces you to make your car faster....or get a car like the guy that is beating you.

[trumperZ06]

wmcot, Bob's whole theory on here is you run what you have, you design what you think works, and rules should be guidelines only....he is the biggest proponent of going back to honking big motors, no aero and let the driver with the biggest gonads be the factor. Today's IMSA/ALMS gives us cars that remind us of Can-Am, but with rules like weight penalties, air restriction for the motors and constant mucking around with the rules, it is anything but like what we had in Can-Am. I hated the way the weight penalties were applied in GT1. At some point, getting beat forces you to make your car faster....or get a car like the guy that is beating you.

:D The rules should be published 12 months ahead... and frozen for that year.

;) If a team develops a better "mouse-trap" ( think small block LS7 Chevy)... they should reap the advantage for one year.

:( IMO, Constantly changing the rules... at all racing levels... cheapens the Sport. It happens in ALMS, NA$CRAP, Grand Sham.. and Formula 1...

and is done in the interest of... "entertainment" !!!

:s mokin: If you want to be "entertained"... there's other options (Titti Bars, WWF, etc) available... I just wish they would quit messing with racing.

Oh.. and Mark, I too was surprised that Porsche would win on a high speed track like Road America. But then... Roger Penske has mastered the art of... The Unfair Advantage.... for many years.

Cya,

Trumper

[wmcot]

wmcot, Bob's whole theory on here is you run what you have, you design what you think works, and rules should be guidelines only....he is the biggest proponent of going back to honking big motors, no aero and let the driver with the biggest gonads be the factor. Today's IMSA/ALMS gives us cars that remind us of Can-Am, but with rules like weight penalties, air restriction for the motors and constant mucking around with the rules, it is anything but like what we had in Can-Am. I hated the way the weight penalties were applied in GT1. At some point, getting beat forces you to make your car faster....or get a car like the guy that is beating you.

I totally agree! I think that weight penalties, fuel tank size restrictions, fuel flow restrictions during pitstops, reduced air inlets, and the like should go. The whole point in racing is about who can build the best car. True, McLaren did dominate CanAm for many years, but the races were still great.

Look at how many things have been killed off:
IRL/Champ Cars - STP and Lotus Turbine cars, multiple manufacturers and engines.
CanAm - Chaparral 2J Fan Car, moveable, raised wings, the entire series.
F1 - Fan cars(Brabham), high wings, tower wings, V12s, V10s, turbos, slicks,
NASCAR - "Real" car bodies resembling an actual road car, Aero innovations like Superbird and Daytona Charger.
ALMS - soon we'll lose diesel power (probably)
LeMans - Howmet Turbine car, big block engines.

I'm sure many of you can add greatly to this list.

A lot of good ideas have been washed down the drain under the guise of making racing more of a "spectacle."

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think you and Bob are pessimests and to an certain extent are watching Can AM through rose coloured glasses. Once McLaren started beating everyone, interest was starting to wane. Then Porsche showed up, beat the tar out of everyone, and the series basically died shortly after in its traditional form. I have read many accounts of those days (being too young to remember the actual races) and from what I have figured, most of the best duels were back in the pack, and the Bruce and Denny show was pretty much the two of them whipping around at a hell of a clip. I think there is something to be said for some sort of handicapping, but I do also think it goes way too far in some forms of racing. Maybe I am trying to straddle middle ground here, but I am not a huge fan of spec racing, but I don't like watching a parade, and lets face it, until the LMP2 teams picked up their act, Audi ran away with every race in ALMS until the Dyson boys started to get close. Yet both the p1 and p2 cars have advantages and disadvantages that counter balance each other, and on some tracks, the p2's have the edge. The races are not dull and I think to an extent, you have to give the paying public some sort of doubt in the outcome beyond the favourite losing a gear or blowing up.

I can see both arguments, and why I think the old Can AM formula was probably the wildest show on earth, it was only because the cars were so radical that no one in that time could comprehend them. I think with insurance regs and the safety issues, such a formula just wouldn't happen....and it is a shame.

[Bob Riebe]

I think you and Bob are pessimests and to an certain extent are watching Can AM through rose coloured glasses. Once McLaren started beating everyone, interest was starting to wane. Then Porsche showed up, beat the tar out of everyone, and the series basically died shortly after in its traditional form. I have read many accounts of those days (being too young to remember the actual races) and from what I have figured, most of the best duels were back in the pack, and the Bruce and Denny show was pretty much the two of them whipping around at a hell of a clip. I think there is something to be said for some sort of handicapping, but I do also think it goes way too far in some forms of racing. Maybe I am trying to straddle middle ground here, but I am not a huge fan of spec racing, but I don't like watching a parade, and lets face it, until the LMP2 teams picked up their act, Audi ran away with every race in ALMS until the Dyson boys started to get close. Yet both the p1 and p2 cars have advantages and disadvantages that counter balance each other, and on some tracks, the p2's have the edge. The races are not dull and I think to an extent, you have to give the paying public some sort of doubt in the outcome beyond the favourite losing a gear or blowing up.

I can see both arguments, and why I think the old Can AM formula was probably the wildest show on earth, it was only because the cars were so radical that no one in that time could comprehend them. I think with insurance regs and the safety issues, such a formula just wouldn't happen....and it is a shame.

Do not forget, that the current cry of "close racing" is BS that sanctions use as an excuse for their rules.
In the sixties, up through the seventies, it was just as much a case of what might show up to race, or what did show up unexpectedly, that brought the gear-heads to the races (THEY are the fans, and racers who kept racing strong in the seventies even as the rag writers, had fits because their heero drivers were not there) which kept things rolling in good times and hard tiimes.

"Close racing" was a pleasant surprise not a key part of racing during the best years.

The Trans-Am had near as many run-away races as the Can-Am

I believe the Can-Am started to collapse when they went from the six race "fall series" as it was sometimes called, to too many races for greeds sake.
I strongly believe that the current cry that more races are needed, is foolishness. A handfull of diamonds, is better than a bucket full of week old urine.

I disagree with Wmcot on some of the aero gimmicks, they helped destroy road racing as the brief ooh-ahh factor was quickly replaced with boring cars that replaced "ROAD" racing with slot-cars.
Remember the winged Chaparral won a total of ONE race, the non-wing cars that preceeded it won a LOT.
The current ACO diesels won ONLY because of rules that restrict the gasoline engiines. In heads-up competition a diesel would be lucky to be a mid-pack also-ran; that is the law of physics diffenting an otto cycle engine from a diesel cycle engine.

When Detroit had to build a street car WITH any aero tricks used, and the aero devices on the race car were identical, THAT is how it is SUPPOSED to be done.
Most people know of the Ford and Mercury second generation aero cars, but not too long ago I got a magazine that had an article on the next Mopar aero cars, which also hinted strongly at the loathing Detroit had for Big Bill's interference, way back then.
I can only guess what they thing of Brian. (Giving credit to BIg BIll, as long as he was alive, Detroit had to produce what was raced, it was not until he died that Jr. stopped that)

Pessimist, absolutely, and I truly do not think it will EVER get any better. THe one exception could be if a bucks=up gear-head got tired of the crap being offered and financed a small four to seven race series.
Take a look at hot rodding and drag racing, going strong and growing; if someone like Barry Mcguire (sp?) who not only sponsors events but has his own TV show were a road racing fan, that might turn things around.

THey can take their packages and spiffy them up so they think they look so sweet, with pretty worsd to make one believe he is reicieving nectare from heaven, but when one unwraps the package, butt-fudge still smells and tastes like butt-fudge.
Bob

[wmcot]

Can Am died because it was regulated to death. In the beginning, it was pretty much wide open. In the '70s, more and more rules and regulations made it impractical to compete. Yes, it was dangerous. Yes, it was dominated by Bruce and Denny unless they suffered one of the frequent mechanical failures. True, the high winged Chaparral only won one race, but it was the imagination of the designers that caught race fan's eyes as much as the actual racing. One builder (McGee?) actually built a car that used 4 snowmobile engines linked together by a belt system and had 4-wheel drive. It wasn't competitive, but given financial backing, who knows. And don't forget that on the tracks that Can-Am shared with F1, Can-Am cars held all the lap records!

Don't take my word for it, get hold of the DVD, "Legends of Can-Am" and you can hear it from those who were directly involved like Jim Hall, George Follmer, Peter Bryant, Charlie Kemp, Jackie Oliver, etc.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bob, you have some good points and I wont break down everything you said, but a nice 6 race series wont work because of the economics. To build a race car to fit a formula, you have to get some return and in 6 races, that isn't likely unless the purses are big and you have a big sponsor for it all....

[Bob Riebe]

unless the purses are big and you have a big sponsor for it all....

Good sir you are dead on.

This is what is missing and has for decades.
It was make loyalty by dedicated gear-heads that made GT racing in the seventies the big show it was.

By the end of he seventies teams and drivers, often one and the same, said "enough is enough/" It killed the Trans-Am Cat.II, that in 1978. even Comp. Press & Autoweek said was the best GT series; which collapsed in '79 and then died.
The IMSA true GT series lasted only a year or so longer, even with Camel money, the purses were not that good until the mid-eighties, and by then the factory teams were there, and I doubt they needed or cared about purse size.

The then LARGE purses are a very large part of what made the Can-Am appeal to so many in the sixties.
This is not a new problem, as in the book Outlaw Sprint Car Racer the author of the book John Gilbert, who was a well known racer-parts builder in the thirties to fifties, said he watched purses continually drop from the thirties into the fifties.

One last point, one makes more money the more one runs, but it also costs more money to run more often.
Bob

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, I will just tie it all back to this: ALMS Cars are the closest things to Can AM we can have in today's regulated and controlled atmosphere. Audi has brought new technology in diesels to the track, and an Audi R10 just shattered the track record at Mosport yesterday with a 1:05.829 and the P2 Porsches are just a hair slower. Now think about the relative power of those cars compared to the Can Am's of old...and it is a marvel of technology because the rules these cars fit into is a much sterner test of engineering and design than having no rules. One could argue that by forcing engineers to fit their design into parameters, it is demanding more design creativity and excellence.

Can Am was the brute force approach to racing. Take a car that was relatively the same to others in design (all 2 seat prototypes, similar dimensions) and put in a big honking motor and stand on it. Chapparral tried to do wild stuff and that would be welcome and THAT was cool, but in the end, the big hammer did the job. The McLarens, the Porsches, the Shadow that won at the end of the series were all big HP blunt insturments. They are the cars that dominated their series. Damn it was fun, but for all the techincal innovation you guys like to romanticize, there is nothing glamourous about taking a big block chevy and putting high lift cams, big heads and huge carbs on it. It was pure brute power.....

Today's race cars have a lot more work in aero, suspension design, and in the case of the engine room of the Audi, brute force through engineering.