Countdown to Beijing.....

[ozrevhead]

Today/Tonight - depending where you are in the world is the 8th of August which is EXACLTY one year to go untill the Beijing Olympics.

Thoughs and news hopefully posted here :p

Also I would like to kindly ask if the mdos please make it a sticky


We have some test events going on - I know some of our Cyclists will be over there around 18-19 Aug including Cadel Evans and Mick Rogers

[tinchote]

We have some test events going on - I know some of our Cyclists will be over there around 18-19 Aug including Cadel Evans and Mick Rogers

Poor guys, I hope they take a breathing mask... It will probably be better next year, though: I've been told that apparently the government will turn off many factories during the Olympics to reduce the smoke.

[ozrevhead]

lol

its more of infomation grabbig exersize than anything

there are a host of 'testing events' and this week they have hosted the media to test the facilities for them

[tinchote]

lol

its more of infomation grabbig exersize than anything

there are a host of 'testing events' and this week they have hosted the media to test the facilities for them

Indeed.

By the way, I can contribute to the thread, since I was in Beijing two weeks ago. While I didn't see any facilities specific for the Olympics, I was impressed by the pace at which they are building. They seem to be putting highways everywhere, lots of work in the city too. They are extending the subway and building new lines. I also read that they are forcing cab drivers to learn English.

With all the reservations I have against China, I have to say that they are making it really big for the Olympics, so it should be a great thing. As I mentioned, they are even prepared to shutdown some factories or whatever it is that creates so much smog. So it might even be possible to see the sky! :)

[Mark]

You wouldn't think that China is hosting the next Olympics, all we get is London 2012...

[555-04Q2]

Poor guys, I hope they take a breathing mask... It will probably be better next year, though: I've been told that apparently the government will turn off many factories during the Olympics to reduce the smoke.

Not only the factories but also the construction work which is adding to the smog effect. I was in China 7 weeks ago and all the cities are polluted beyond belief. The worst was ChongQing which is surrounded by a mountain range and the pollution, moisture and contruction dust just hover over the city and keep the sunlight out :(

[millencolin]

they really have to sort out that pollution problem. the poor athletes having to do the marathon events having to breathe in pure filth. hopefully they can get rid of the smog. i heard something about taking 1million cars off the road... but with the pollution as bad as it is, i dont think taking 1million cars off the road will be a miracle ticket to better air quality

[schmenke]

Poor guys, I hope they take a breathing mask... It will probably be better next year, though: I've been told that apparently the government will turn off many factories during the Olympics to reduce the smoke.

That was done a couple of weeks prior to the evaluation visits by the OIC when Beijing was bidding for the event :mark: .
Also, the grass in all Beijing parks and green spaces was painted green.

[oily oaf]

The question as to whether a country with the human rights record of China should have been awarded the Games in the first place is an extremely debatable one IMHO.
I await with interest Zimbabwe 2016 and of course Darfur 2020.

Having said that I confidently predict that the forthcoming games will be an unmitigated triumph, particularly for the Chinese who will win Gold, Silver and Bronze at every event from the Men's 100m dash to the Ladies Wheelchair Pie Eating Contest before being stripped of their medals six months later after having all been found to be ripped to the tits on performance enhancing jungle juice. FACT!

[tinchote]

The question as to whether a country with the human rights record of China should have been awarded the Games in the first place is an extremely debatable one IMHO.
I await with interest Zimbabwe 2016 and of course Darfur 2020.


I was really annoyed when the games were awarded to China. But to compare it with Zimbabwe or Darfur is a little over the top.



Having said that I confidently predict that the forthcoming games will be an unmitigated triumph, particularly for the Chinese who will win Gold, Silver and Bronze at every event from the Men's 100m dash to the Ladies Wheelchair Pie Eating Contest before being stripped of their medals six months later after having all been found to be ripped to the tits on performance enhancing jungle juice. FACT!

:up:

The Chinese will not cheat more than any other country.

[oily oaf]

I was really annoyed when the games were awarded to China. But to compare it with Zimbabwe or Darfur is a little over the top.



:up:

The Chinese will not cheat more than any other country.

My comparison of The People's Republic with the other two unnsavoury nations was heavily tinged with sarcasm although I should imagine the average Tibetan in the street would readily agree with me.
With regard to the question of cheating I can only hark back to the last World Swimming Championships when the Chinese swept the board with some astounding times only to have the whole team ostracised for taking drugs.
Similarly I seem to remember some of their distance runners being caught cheating at the last Games so they do seem to be past masters at dodgy practices.
With the added pressures of a home Olympics coupled with intense public expectation I fully expect the Chinese chemists to be working long into the night.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The question as to whether a country with the human rights record of China should have been awarded the Games in the first place is an extremely debatable one IMHO.
I await with interest Zimbabwe 2016 and of course Darfur 2020.

Having said that I confidently predict that the forthcoming games will be an unmitigated triumph, particularly for the Chinese who will win Gold, Silver and Bronze at every event from the Men's 100m dash to the Ladies Wheelchair Pie Eating Contest before being stripped of their medals six months later after having all been found to be ripped to the tits on performance enhancing jungle juice. FACT!

Well, at risk of agreeing with Oaf 100% (I am not sure about the Chinese Ladies Wheelchair Pie eaters) putting the Olympics in China is proving once again that the IOC is making the same errors it did in giving the Olympics to Berlin in 1936 and Moscow in 1980. The Olympics are a recognition by the world as a whole of nation/cities's culture and its place on the world stage. Hitler used them for propaganda. Moscow would have and did except politican events led to a boycott of most of the western nations.

By giving Beijjing the Olympics, the IOC was rewarding a regime that has done little to earn respect in terms of human rights, freedom and love our fellow man, things that the Olympics says they are behind. The reality is the IOC are money grubbing capitalists that only hide behind the "Olympic Ideal" when they are accused of being as vain and greedy as the worst nations on the earth. Juan Antonio Samaranch pushed for the games to go to Beijjing because of his "friends" in their government. The fact that ole Juan was a henchman for Franco in his worst days and seen the worst days of corruption in the bid process without actually doing anything about it concrete is just a joke. No, this was Juan's last favour for another corrupt regime to show off how they have "progressed". Nothing good happens in these nations that host Olympics on a human rights front after the games have left. So the excuse that giving the Olympics to Beijjing is some sort of impetus to get the Chinese to clean up their act is a farce.

Oaf is right, I want to see the Harare Olympics of 2016 or maybe the Pyongyang Olympics 2020. Hey, find the most odious regimes and let them have a go. The Chinese already have rampant censorship, killing political prisoners for organ sales and the odious habit of billing the families of the dead for the bullets fired by the firing squad. Lets just drop the pretence that the Olympics stand for anything but making money.

Now that I have unloaded all of this off my chest, I hope the Canadians do well, and I hope that China changes into a truly free nation. But I wont hold my breath....at least on the Chinese regime changing. On the Canadian Athletes...well they will finish well in some events, do their best, and we will caterwaul from coast to coast when they don't do well, and in 2 months after the games, forget them all again when the debate over funding occurs....

[BDunnell]

I agree with all of the above from oily and Mark. The inevitable spectacle of people from the West raving about how amazing China is while ignoring its human rights record and lack of democracy will be a pretty hard one to take. I'm sure it is an amazing country, and it's one I'd like to visit, but I can't help but think about these problems whenever I think of China. How can anyone not when you consider that, in China, you are banned from broadcasting anything which questions the right of the Chinese Communist Party from being in power. Is this the sort of nation we should be holding up as a beacon of anything, no matter how economically successful it is?

[tinchote]

My comparison of The People's Republic with the other two unnsavoury nations was heavily tinged with sarcasm although I should imagine the average Tibetan in the street would readily agree with me.
With regard to the question of cheating I can only hark back to the last World Swimming Championships when the Chinese swept the board with some astounding times only to have the whole team ostracised for taking drugs.
Similarly I seem to remember some of their distance runners being caught cheating at the last Games so they do seem to be past masters at dodgy practices.
With the added pressures of a home Olympics coupled with intense public expectation I fully expect the Chinese chemists to be working long into the night.

You know way more than I do. I haven't been following most sports very closely and I didn't remember those episodes. I don't doubt that the Chinese government is putting a lot of pressure on its top athletes to win. Even on top of the pressure that they have on their own: there is a lot of national pride in China.


I agree with all of the above from oily and Mark. The inevitable spectacle of people from the West raving about how amazing China is while ignoring its human rights record and lack of democracy will be a pretty hard one to take. I'm sure it is an amazing country, and it's one I'd like to visit, but I can't help but think about these problems whenever I think of China. How can anyone not when you consider that, in China, you are banned from broadcasting anything which questions the right of the Chinese Communist Party from being in power. Is this the sort of nation we should be holding up as a beacon of anything, no matter how economically successful it is?

I would say it's worse than that, because it is not only the enforcement of censorhip, but the education. Once in China I was talking to this 20 year old, who was studying English as his major at university, and so he was really fluent in English. Among many things, I asked him who chooses the authorities in China. His answer? He didn't know :eek:

[BDunnell]

I would say it's worse than that, because it is not only the enforcement of censorhip, but the education. Once in China I was talking to this 20 year old, who was studying English as his major at university, and so he was really fluent in English. Among many things, I asked him who chooses the authorities in China. His answer? He didn't know :eek:

Indeed. I was only citing that as an example because I was reminded of it by a radio programme this morning.

[luvracin]

I agree with all of the above from oily and Mark. The inevitable spectacle of people from the West raving about how amazing China is while ignoring its human rights record and lack of democracy will be a pretty hard one to take. I'm sure it is an amazing country, and it's one I'd like to visit, but I can't help but think about these problems whenever I think of China. How can anyone not when you consider that, in China, you are banned from broadcasting anything which questions the right of the Chinese Communist Party from being in power. Is this the sort of nation we should be holding up as a beacon of anything, no matter how economically successful it is?

Yes, and I nervously await the day when all the Western Companies that have rushed to setup factories in China to take advantage of cheap labour are shutdown and kicked out. Cheap, blatant copies of many "Western" autos are already trickling into the world market. It's only a matter of time before China has learnt everything it thinks it needs to know before they kick the foreign owned companies out.

As for the Olympics. Wherever they are, I must admit to being completely underwhelmed. I don't know why, I guess I'm just over it.

[BDunnell]

Yes, and I nervously await the day when all the Western Companies that have rushed to setup factories in China to take advantage of cheap labour are shutdown and kicked out. Cheap, blatant copies of many "Western" autos are already trickling into the world market. It's only a matter of time before China has learnt everything it thinks it needs to know before they kick the foreign owned companies out.

This isn't something I've ever really thought about before. Would even the Chinese government be so stupid as to do that, given that it would be killing off many export markets that, in spite of China's vast population, parts of its industrial base need?

Whatever the answer to that question is, I believe that the ongoing human rights abuses in China make rather a mockery of all the rhetoric about Western investment helping to bring about democracy there. Little or nothing that I have seen backs this up.

[luvracin]

This isn't something I've ever really thought about before. Would even the Chinese government be so stupid as to do that, given that it would be killing off many export markets that, in spite of China's vast population, parts of its industrial base need?


I don't think they'll do it with a "wave of a hand". That would as you say kill off their markets. However, I do fear there is an overall strategy at play, that will in the end result in foreign owned companies no longer being welcome.

Their blatant disregard for patents and copyrights, and their blatant copies of vehicles right down to the grill inserts, with even names that are similar in "look" to the original is very disturbing.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Apparently most of the skyscrapers in Beijing have been built for the Olympics just to make the Chinese look like a developed country. The actual buildings are empty inside and people have been forced to move out of their houses for these new empty developments. This seems a bit wasteful as the living conditions in China are still quite poor.

[Storm]

Oh we have the Olympics again ? so soon.... :|
The wait for the World Cup always seems too long though...

[schmenke]

"Greyjing"

:D

[tinchote]

"Greyjing"

:D

:rotflmao:


This isn't something I've ever really thought about before. Would even the Chinese government be so stupid as to do that, given that it would be killing off many export markets that, in spite of China's vast population, parts of its industrial base need?

Whatever the answer to that question is, I believe that the ongoing human rights abuses in China make rather a mockery of all the rhetoric about Western investment helping to bring about democracy there. Little or nothing that I have seen backs this up.

I think that's a too pessimistic view. The influence of Western companies is greatly influencing China. Many people are having a better income, improving their life and education. It's a slow process, of course, after all we are talking about 20% of humanity here. But the ball has started rolling and China will eventually have a democracy or something similar. Still decades away, though.


Apparently most of the skyscrapers in Beijing have been built for the Olympics just to make the Chinese look like a developed country. The actual buildings are empty inside and people have been forced to move out of their houses for these new empty developments. This seems a bit wasteful as the living conditions in China are still quite poor.

I would think that the skyscrapers are used by many of those people who drive those Mercedes and BMWs and Volvos that you see so much around Beijing. Besides, even if frozen 5 years ago, Beijing has an impressive skyline. On the other hand, most of the poor houses are still there for anyone to see.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Olympics in Beijjing is just rewarding the government there with a chance to think they belong with legitimate democracies. It is this need to try to pretend they are good citizens of the world that they are having rewarded. They are the worst polluters on earth, have a shameful human rights record, and no rule of law that isn't broken to suit the needs of the Army and Regime every day.

No, I don't like the Olympics there AT all..

[Schultz]

Are people still whining about the human rights abuses in China? I'm sorry, I've said this before, but there are dozens of other countries where the people are being treated with less humanity, where corruption is worse, and where the people are seeing little gain from their country's economic performances. China is a growing country. The people's quality of life is improving, and the government are doing the best they can to ensure the quality of life coninues to improve, because they need that to happen to realistically compete with the USA in the future.

People are talking about boycotting these games (the USA) and this troubles me, because not for 1 second do i believe the Americans are really concerned about the human rights abuses in China. They are concerned that China will wow a few people and look prestigious.

I for one can't wait for the games! I looove the olympics, and while it is a major cost, real benefits can be delivered to the people that go beyond profits and deficits. New facilities and a higher morale to namea couple.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Are people still whining about the human rights abuses in China? I'm sorry, I've said this before, but there are dozens of other countries where the people are being treated with less humanity, where corruption is worse, and where the people are seeing little gain from their country's economic performances. China is a growing country. The people's quality of life is improving, and the government are doing the best they can to ensure the quality of life coninues to improve, because they need that to happen to realistically compete with the USA in the future.

People are talking about boycotting these games (the USA) and this troubles me, because not for 1 second do i believe the Americans are really concerned about the human rights abuses in China. They are concerned that China will wow a few people and look prestigious.

I for one can't wait for the games! I looove the olympics, and while it is a major cost, real benefits can be delivered to the people that go beyond profits and deficits. New facilities and a higher morale to namea couple.


First off, the Americans haven't complained about much, so where you get the Yanks are ticked and boycotting is nonsense. There is no talk of a boycott. Second, It is easy for you to dump on us people "whining" about China's human rights abuses from the safety of your nice little suburban home or wherever in anytown Australia. It is quite another if you live in China and have to live worried to death of ever falling afoul of the government. You don't get a fair trial, and if they decide you have done something to irk them, you are GONE. Censorship is alive and well there as well. Ever twig to the fact there are no Chinese from the mainland on this board?? Could it be that this board would be considered "Subversive"?

Also, it is fine to say you love the Olympics, but figure out what they really area all about. The athletes are getting their wishes fulfilled, and god love em, most of them are never going to be rich or famous for long but it is their dream. Where I have a problem is the moguls running the IOC. They are the ones spouting off how the Olympic movement is noble, good, pushing for better conditions for all and the betterment of Mankind as a whole. It is THEY who sell this pablum, and then turn around and hand the greatest propaganda weapon a communist regime could hope for to their Capital City. What is the IOC getting?? MONEY, and lots of it. They are pimps..and the athletes are the ones being sold......

It wouldn't bother me nearly as much if the Olympics was given to cities in countries where freedom is not just a concept, but a rule of law. No one criticized Sydney for getting the games, or Athens, because Australia and Greece don't make a habit of putting people in jail for their opinions. I will continue to feel this way, and I wont apologize for it. The ChiCom government are a bunch of thugs, and have not really hid the fact, so I am pissed they managed to still convince the idiots in the IOC that they deserved the games.

As for your assertion the Chinese need to be this way to compete against the US, that is CRAP. Japan doesn't do that to their people no more and compete. Ditto for the Germans, French, UK and other developed nations. At some point, you have to give real freedom to people, not just to the rich running the companies. Believe me, the average guy in China may make more money, but he isn't living a better live in any real fashion. He still works way too long, in dangerous conditions, with little concern for his safety or welfare, and if he complains, he is in jail. IF that is progress, than I think many would be happy if they could do without.

[dime3]

Today/Tonight - depending where you are in the world is the 8th of August which is EXACLTY one year to go untill the Beijing Olympics.

Thoughs and news hopefully posted here :p

Also I would like to kindly ask if the mdos please make it a sticky


We have some test events going on - I know some of our Cyclists will be over there around 18-19 Aug including Cadel Evans and Mick Rogers

First, that would do good to China's economy and secondly, I wish I'd be there too! :D

[Schultz]

First off, the Americans haven't complained about much, so where you get the Yanks are ticked and boycotting is nonsense. There is no talk of a boycott. Second, It is easy for you to dump on us people "whining" about China's human rights abuses from the safety of your nice little suburban home or wherever in anytown Australia. It is quite another if you live in China and have to live worried to death of ever falling afoul of the government. You don't get a fair trial, and if they decide you have done something to irk them, you are GONE. Censorship is alive and well there as well. Ever twig to the fact there are no Chinese from the mainland on this board?? Could it be that this board would be considered "Subversive"?

Also, it is fine to say you love the Olympics, but figure out what they really area all about. The athletes are getting their wishes fulfilled, and god love em, most of them are never going to be rich or famous for long but it is their dream. Where I have a problem is the moguls running the IOC. They are the ones spouting off how the Olympic movement is noble, good, pushing for better conditions for all and the betterment of Mankind as a whole. It is THEY who sell this pablum, and then turn around and hand the greatest propaganda weapon a communist regime could hope for to their Capital City. What is the IOC getting?? MONEY, and lots of it. They are pimps..and the athletes are the ones being sold......

It wouldn't bother me nearly as much if the Olympics was given to cities in countries where freedom is not just a concept, but a rule of law. No one criticized Sydney for getting the games, or Athens, because Australia and Greece don't make a habit of putting people in jail for their opinions. I will continue to feel this way, and I wont apologize for it. The ChiCom government are a bunch of thugs, and have not really hid the fact, so I am pissed they managed to still convince the idiots in the IOC that they deserved the games.

As for your assertion the Chinese need to be this way to compete against the US, that is CRAP. Japan doesn't do that to their people no more and compete. Ditto for the Germans, French, UK and other developed nations. At some point, you have to give real freedom to people, not just to the rich running the companies. Believe me, the average guy in China may make more money, but he isn't living a better live in any real fashion. He still works way too long, in dangerous conditions, with little concern for his safety or welfare, and if he complains, he is in jail. IF that is progress, than I think many would be happy if they could do without.

I apreciate the response.

I think the assersion here is that all the conditions you have mentioned which impair the people's quality of life, are consistent and common this which govern how the country is run. Oh your statement that there is no member on this board who is from mainland China - How about Maxu05. He posts mainly on the motorcycle board, but also here sometimes to. He is an Australian working abroad in China and has been doing so for a number of years I believe. I remember him correcting some of the misconceptions about the life of the Chinese individual. From what I remember, I think he was quite astounded about the hysteria that is built up around Chinese humanitarian abuses. But this is hearsay. You might have to talk to him about this. But ofcourse, he is only one person, with one perspective on China. However it certainly puts doubt on your claims of the censorship of this board in China. Maybe noone visits here because the average wage is somewhere between 2,000 and 5,000 USD per year, not becasue of over censorship by the government.

Of course the IOC are just after money! Just like Bernie Ecclestone and the leader of any other major sporting institution in the world. But it's a facet of Capitalisation that means the greedy are able to continue to become richer and richer. This just shows the Chinese are really being affected by capitalism. And to call China communist now days is a little old fashioned I think. It suits them to call themselves communist because it implies a legitimate government, as the alternative is calling themselves a dictatorship. Vietnam also calls themselves a communist government, but as you probably know, in Vietnam, communism is no longer relevant beyond the basic worship of Ho Chi Mihn.

Oh and i never said I believe China needs to be this way to compete with America. I said that China needs to improve the quality of life of its people to properly compete with the United States. I see China taking a similar pattern of growth as Japan. Japan made it's money in the post war period by selling cheap goods at a lower price than any western country could compete with. As the economy started to really kick off and wages rose, the Japanese started manufacturing higher technology goods like cars and camera's in order to compete. Look at the Japanese people now. Some of the highest paid workers in the world with one of the highest life expectancies. China is heading down the same track.

[tinchote]

However it certainly puts doubt on your claims of the censorship of this board in China.

These forums in particular are not censored in China (do you think we are that important? ;) )

But there is plenty of internet censorship in China. I have been in mainland China in 2002, in 2005, and two weeks ago. And still there are many many sites that won't open from there (most notably the BBC, but many many more).

Depending on where you are, even your google searchs are censored. Again, it happened to me, I was at a conference using the internet and whenever I did a search of something not nice about China (like "China jail abuse", or things like that), I would get "404 page not found".

[Mark in Oshawa]

I apreciate the response.

I think the assersion here is that all the conditions you have mentioned which impair the people's quality of life, are consistent and common this which govern how the country is run. Oh your statement that there is no member on this board who is from mainland China - How about Maxu05. He posts mainly on the motorcycle board, but also here sometimes to. He is an Australian working abroad in China and has been doing so for a number of years I believe. I remember him correcting some of the misconceptions about the life of the Chinese individual. From what I remember, I think he was quite astounded about the hysteria that is built up around Chinese humanitarian abuses. But this is hearsay. You might have to talk to him about this. But ofcourse, he is only one person, with one perspective on China. However it certainly puts doubt on your claims of the censorship of this board in China. Maybe noone visits here because the average wage is somewhere between 2,000 and 5,000 USD per year, not becasue of over censorship by the government. .

Well first off, for the number of people from Finland and other tiny nations, yo would think we would have more Chinese on here but I will accept that the forum is there. That said, if we had a spate of not nice threads about China on the Chit Chat I bet it could come to a censor. Now, do I think for a second the Chinese worry about what we are saying? No, not really, but I do think that if there was enough anti-Chinese sentiment on this board, that could change. They are eager to contain and control any access to the internet that doesn't meet their acid test, so you can bet any webpages dedicated to the Tibet freedom movements or Falun Gong is banned in China. Think about that, and then think about how the KK or neo-NAZI's can put any filth on the net they want, and in almost any nation of any forum member can read it. In China though, anything not up to their feelings is gone. Now, is it as oppressive as North Korea? No, but the point is what is Bejjing afraid of really??


Of course the IOC are just after money! Just like Bernie Ecclestone and the leader of any other major sporting institution in the world. But it's a facet of Capitalisation that means the greedy are able to continue to become richer and richer. This just shows the Chinese are really being affected by capitalism. And to call China communist now days is a little old fashioned I think. It suits them to call themselves communist because it implies a legitimate government, as the alternative is calling themselves a dictatorship. Vietnam also calls themselves a communist government, but as you probably know, in Vietnam, communism is no longer relevant beyond the basic worship of Ho Chi Mihn. .

The IOC then should drop all pretence about their greater power to improve the human condition and the idea how wars stop for the greater ideals of the Olympic movement then. If they are going to go about spouting off all this BS, then live up to it and hold nations to a standard of personal and ethical behaviour. China wouldn't meet it by most as it is on the lists of Amnesty International and other human rights watch groups as one of the more oppressive nations. Oily Oaf had it right when he was waiting for the Darfur Olympics......because the Chinese have backed the Sudanese oppresion of the non Muslim minorities in Darfur.

As for their Communist credentials, you are right, they are capitalists in the same manner that the Nazi's were in pre War Germany. Human rights didn't matter when it suited their purposes, but hey, the NAZI name comes from "Nationalist Socialist" Party....so hey, socialist, communist, dictatorial regime....call it what you want, but don't look for a ballot box or a fair trial eh?


Oh and i never said I believe China needs to be this way to compete with America. I said that China needs to improve the quality of life of its people to properly compete with the United States. I see China taking a similar pattern of growth as Japan. Japan made it's money in the post war period by selling cheap goods at a lower price than any western country could compete with. As the economy started to really kick off and wages rose, the Japanese started manufacturing higher technology goods like cars and camera's in order to compete. Look at the Japanese people now. Some of the highest paid workers in the world with one of the highest life expectancies. China is heading down the same track.

Good that you have straightened that out for what you said was :

"Are people still whining about the human rights abuses in China? I'm sorry, I've said this before, but there are dozens of other countries where the people are being treated with less humanity, where corruption is worse, and where the people are seeing little gain from their country's economic performances. China is a growing country. The people's quality of life is improving, and the government are doing the best they can to ensure the quality of life coninues to improve, because they need that to happen to realistically compete with the USA in the future."

So hey, it sounds like to me that we should just leave the Chinese alone, they are going to get there and they are doing their best. No they are NOT doing their best, and by the way they treat any western scrutiny says to me they are NOT improving any time soon. Listen, you can have tall buildings, cars on the streets, large civil engineering exercises like the 4 Gorges Dam but when you are still billing the families of the executed for the bullet, it says volumes about how little you value human life.

If the Chinese are forced to admit they need to change by the west and the rest of the world telling them so, then it is worth it, but don't you EVER then turn around and say that this is "whining". Some very earnest and educated people can be a bit much when they protest for human rights, but the goal and the ideals they are trying to protect in places like China are something you would miss dearly if you didn't have them. The fact that the hellhole that is North Korea is a lot worse is no sop either, for they wouldn't exist if the Chinese didn't back that weasel in Pyongang. That hell hole is a buffer because the Chinese are paranoid about a united Korea.....

No, it isn't whining, and human rights oppression in China is an issue. It cannot be justified and should never be defended. The fact some nations are worse is a bit of a joke in your argument, because it is Beijjing that is getting the Olympics....NOT some other hell hole, but give the IOC time. Like Bernie Ecclestone, he will sell his own mother for the right price, and the IOC just needs the green......

[oily oaf]

(thrusts hands into pockets and ambles casually from thread whistling tunefully and leaves Mark and Schultz to continue their no holds barred, toe to toe verbal slugfest)

PS. My dough's on the black guy :monster:

[Mark in Oshawa]

(thrusts hands into pockets and ambles casually from thread whistling tunefully and leaves Mark and Schultz to continue their no holds barred, toe to toe verbal slugfest)

PS. My dough's on the black guy :monster:

Oaf, I have a good tan but come on, I aint a black guy, and I know hell will freeze over before some guy named Schultz is a black guy...lol

[Schultz]

Well first off, for the number of people from Finland and other tiny nations, yo would think we would have more Chinese on here but I will accept that the forum is there. That said, if we had a spate of not nice threads about China on the Chit Chat I bet it could come to a censor. Now, do I think for a second the Chinese worry about what we are saying? No, not really, but I do think that if there was enough anti-Chinese sentiment on this board, that could change. They are eager to contain and control any access to the internet that doesn't meet their acid test, so you can bet any webpages dedicated to the Tibet freedom movements or Falun Gong is banned in China. Think about that, and then think about how the KK or neo-NAZI's can put any filth on the net they want, and in almost any nation of any forum member can read it. In China though, anything not up to their feelings is gone. Now, is it as oppressive as North Korea? No, but the point is what is Bejjing afraid of really??

Look I agree with you. It sucks that the Chinese people miss out on the BBC, and will possibly lose motorsport forums too if you keep up your Chinese Human Rights criticisms :eek: But really, as you ask - "what is Beijing afraid of?". The obvious answer is they are afraid of instability. You'd probably say they are afraid of an uprising that throws them out of power, which would be true. However, whether their motivation is to remain in power or not, instability in China is bad for China and its people. A stable China has produced astounding economic growth and what i imagine would be a fairly big growth in real wages for its people.




The IOC then should drop all pretence about their greater power to improve the human condition and the idea how wars stop for the greater ideals of the Olympic movement then. If they are going to go about spouting off all this BS, then live up to it and hold nations to a standard of personal and ethical behaviour. China wouldn't meet it by most as it is on the lists of Amnesty International and other human rights watch groups as one of the more oppressive nations. Oily Oaf had it right when he was waiting for the Darfur Olympics......because the Chinese have backed the Sudanese oppresion of the non Muslim minorities in Darfur.

I guess you could say in one way the IOC does use its power to improve the human rights situation in the countries it visits. Every time the Olympics roadshow visits a city every four years, the microscope is on that city. Every facet of that country and that city is explored to ensure there are suitable conditions for competition and suitable conditions for accommodation. I mean hell, the reason we are talking about Chinese human rights abuses right now is because the olympics are travelling there next year. Afterall, this is really the only power the IOC has in relation to the governance of the countries it visits. While this is a good thing, I believe in relation to China, you can't look at say, extra judicial executions and the repression of movements such as Falung Gong, in isolation.




As for their Communist credentials, you are right, they are capitalists in the same manner that the Nazi's were in pre War Germany. Human rights didn't matter when it suited their purposes, but hey, the NAZI name comes from "Nationalist Socialist" Party....so hey, socialist, communist, dictatorial regime....call it what you want, but don't look for a ballot box or a fair trial eh?

What is the point comparing Chinese rule to the NAZI's? These two have absolutely no relation to each other. I no way does the Chinese government have ambitions of taking over the worlds, and in no way are they ethnically cleansing the population.




Good that you have straightened that out for what you said was :

"Are people still whining about the human rights abuses in China? I'm sorry, I've said this before, but there are dozens of other countries where the people are being treated with less humanity, where corruption is worse, and where the people are seeing little gain from their country's economic performances. China is a growing country. The people's quality of life is improving, and the government are doing the best they can to ensure the quality of life coninues to improve, because they need that to happen to realistically compete with the USA in the future."

So hey, it sounds like to me that we should just leave the Chinese alone, they are going to get there and they are doing their best. No they are NOT doing their best, and by the way they treat any western scrutiny says to me they are NOT improving any time soon. Listen, you can have tall buildings, cars on the streets, large civil engineering exercises like the 4 Gorges Dam but when you are still billing the families of the executed for the bullet, it says volumes about how little you value human life.

If the Chinese are forced to admit they need to change by the west and the rest of the world telling them so, then it is worth it, but don't you EVER then turn around and say that this is "whining". Some very earnest and educated people can be a bit much when they protest for human rights, but the goal and the ideals they are trying to protect in places like China are something you would miss dearly if you didn't have them. The fact that the hellhole that is North Korea is a lot worse is no sop either, for they wouldn't exist if the Chinese didn't back that weasel in Pyongang. That hell hole is a buffer because the Chinese are paranoid about a united Korea.....

No, it isn't whining, and human rights oppression in China is an issue. It cannot be justified and should never be defended. The fact some nations are worse is a bit of a joke in your argument, because it is Beijjing that is getting the Olympics....NOT some other hell hole, but give the IOC time. Like Bernie Ecclestone, he will sell his own mother for the right price, and the IOC just needs the green......

Chinese Humar Rights opression is visible and depressing. I totally agree with you here. I have much respect for the people of China, but also with the Chinese leadership to a certain degree. I will admit that my knowledge on China in particular is not what I would call extensive. But, I can see so many common characteristics between countries such as China and other Asian countries which I am studying as part of my International Relations degree, I'm only a second year student, but I have learnt enough to make me confident that China is heading in the right direction.

You will say that there is no evidence China's human rights record is improving, and that is just total BS. When was the last time the Chinese government starved 10's of millions of people like they did under Mao Ze Dong in the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution? People are not used as slaves to complete major ideological projects like they were under Mao Ze dong. The people have more independence to buy and sell their own properties and to start and run their own businesses. They are able to travel overseas and to study at university in China or abroad. "They are NOT improving anytime soon"? WHAT THE HELL?

Because 90% of the world's executions occur in China, because some websites are censored, and because a cult called Falun Gong is repressed it gives you the right to ignore the massive increases in the standing of living of the majority of its people? I think you are taking for granted the relative stability that is being enjoyed in China right now. It is NOT a natural thing in Asia. The common theme that I have noticed is that real stability in developing Asian countries has only really occurred where rather repressive dictatorial regimes have been employed. The techniques alot of these countries have used to ensure they maintain that stability have often been much more heavy handed that the Human rights abuses you point out in China. An example (which i've already pointed out) being the Communist Party of Indonesia of 1965, whose rise and threat to Indonesian stability was met with controlled violence by the military against all supporters of the group. It left 100's of thousands of people murdered. While it is completely unforgivable what occurred, the Suharto regime rested its authority and its legitimacy on its ability to control such violence, because it showed he was ready and able to be tough and maintain the stability that would make Indonesia the fastest growing country in the region until the 1990's.

Yes, this is a statement by the Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and it is published by a state agency, but this is the view I ave of where China is headed.

http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/first%20beginning/t56058.htm

[Drew]

However it certainly puts doubt on your claims of the censorship of this board in China.


The Chinese government can't ban every website on its own, one quick e-mail to Hu Juntao could change that :p :

[BDunnell]

Look I agree with you. It sucks that the Chinese people miss out on the BBC, and will possibly lose motorsport forums too if you keep up your Chinese Human Rights criticisms :eek: But really, as you ask - "what is Beijing afraid of?". The obvious answer is they are afraid of instability. You'd probably say they are afraid of an uprising that throws them out of power, which would be true. However, whether their motivation is to remain in power or not, instability in China is bad for China and its people. A stable China has produced astounding economic growth and what i imagine would be a fairly big growth in real wages for its people.

I would argue that what is worse for China and its people is living under a deeply authoritarian regime. If the Chinese leadership is afraid of instability as you say (isn't every government?), then, as far as I'm concerned, bring on that 'instability'. Incidentally, I could replace 'instability' with 'democracy' and mean much the same thing.

Those of us who live in stable, successful, democratic countries ought not to believe that the regime in China can be justified on the basis of keeping that country stable. It can't. We, I'd venture to say, know that there are better means of achieving that end.


I guess you could say in one way the IOC does use its power to improve the human rights situation in the countries it visits. Every time the Olympics roadshow visits a city every four years, the microscope is on that city. Every facet of that country and that city is explored to ensure there are suitable conditions for competition and suitable conditions for accommodation. I mean hell, the reason we are talking about Chinese human rights abuses right now is because the olympics are travelling there next year. Afterall, this is really the only power the IOC has in relation to the governance of the countries it visits.

I still feel that in choosing China as the host of the Olympics, the IOC is in effect saying that the country is in some way acceptable for the role. This is why countries like Afghanistan and North Korea don't get the Olympics. Well, the facilities may be acceptable, but this isn't the be-all and end-all. Still, by the IOC's standards, China is probably a model of democracy and probity.


You will say that there is no evidence China's human rights record is improving, and that is just total BS. When was the last time the Chinese government starved 10's of millions of people like they did under Mao Ze Dong in the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution? People are not used as slaves to complete major ideological projects like they were under Mao Ze dong.

So the fact that no major atrocities occur there now is reason to celebrate, is it? Again, I think we can do better than that. In the modern world, the actions and policies of China's regime are simply unacceptable, no matter whether or not it's quite as bad as once it was. It is merely a continuation of those regimes of the past. Where are the apologies for those past atrocities, for example?


Because 90% of the world's executions occur in China, because some websites are censored, and because a cult called Falun Gong is repressed it gives you the right to ignore the massive increases in the standing of living of the majority of its people?

Again, none of these things are in any way acceptable, even when one considers China's economic progress in recent years. Sorry, but to me, that's not an acceptable price to pay for this growth.


The common theme that I have noticed is that real stability in developing Asian countries has only really occurred where rather repressive dictatorial regimes have been employed. The techniques alot of these countries have used to ensure they maintain that stability have often been much more heavy handed that the Human rights abuses you point out in China. An example (which i've already pointed out) being the Communist Party of Indonesia of 1965, whose rise and threat to Indonesian stability was met with controlled violence by the military against all supporters of the group. It left 100's of thousands of people murdered. While it is completely unforgivable what occurred, the Suharto regime rested its authority and its legitimacy on its ability to control such violence, because it showed he was ready and able to be tough and maintain the stability that would make Indonesia the fastest growing country in the region until the 1990's.

Yet again, the end results don't make authoritarianism acceptable to any degree. Suharto was a ruthless dictator, pure and simple, at the head of a ruthless, dictatorial and corrupt regime. No amount of 'stability' or economic progress can change or justify that.

[Malbec]

Its good that China hosts the Olympics, and its a sign of how powerful a force globalisation is.

I also think that China has been one of the best lead countries on the planet for the past 15 years or so.

Now I haven't forgotten all the human rights abuses that are carrying on but we shouldn't lose track of how far they've come either.

Over the past 15-20 years the Chinese have opened up immensely and as a result investment has flowed into the country and the economy has grown hugely as a result. We all know where the exports go, primarily to developed countries.

That development is a double edged sword for the Chinese, it helps people gain employment and creates wealth within the country but it also binds the hands of the government too. If the Chinese try another Cultural Revolution or Tianamen Square massacre and international business confidence in the country drops, sanctions come into place and all that hard won economic development comes to nothing. End result? Millions more impoverished and unemployed Chinese workers blaming the government for their woes, and its that unrest that the government fears more than anything.

Its not even as easy as keeping the economy growing, it HAS to be at around 10% per year or else it can't absorb the masses of rural > urban migration of workers.

The Chinese government is managing the economy well, astonishingly so given that born and bred Communists are trying to run a cut-throat Capitalist economy. For a nepotistic unelected body to be able to be so flexible in adjusting to such foreign ideas is unprecedented.

Its good for Democracy too. China is surrounded by countries that until recently were rather unpleasant dictatorships but have now transformed themselves into Democracies like Taiwan and South Korea. Even now we're seeing continuous reform of the Chinese judicial system, the introduction of jury based trials, elections for low level Communist party positions and so on. Again, if the pace of reform slows, China risks losing the confidence of the international business community and therefore investment.....

Its easy for us from highly developed Democratic societies to pass of the Chinese system as backwards and repressive because it is, but it is continually improving and becoming more open.

And yes the Chinese government and people fear instability above all else because in their history instability has brought war, famine and the deaths of millions, sometimes tens of millions of Chinese. It has also brought foreign occupation, something a new generation of proud Chinese loath more than anything. They have good reason for it.

That is after all why "may you live in interesting times" is an insult in China, not a statement of goodwill. They may as well be saying "I hope you burn in hell".

One last point, the Olympics has never been about celebrating democracy, Munich 1936, Tokyo 1940 (cancelled) and Moscow 1980 are obvious examples of the opposite.

[Peter Mandelson]

Today/Tonight - depending where you are in the world is the 8th of August which is EXACLTY one year to go untill the Beijing Olympics.

Thoughs and news hopefully posted here :p

Also I would like to kindly ask if the mdos please make it a sticky


We have some test events going on - I know some of our Cyclists will be over there around 18-19 Aug including Cadel Evans and Mick Rogers

its time for Aussies to fund your athletes in Beijing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMbTfN9IKxk

[Peter Mandelson]

for those who are going to boycott next year Olympics

you should boycott Formula 1 too

since F1 race in China and have lenovo and Aigo as major sponsors for major F1 teams

[kalasend]

First off, the Americans haven't complained about much, so where you get the Yanks are ticked and boycotting is nonsense.

The problem with you, Mark, is that "enough done to China", for you, means that the whole Chicom being overflown, that the nation's political and economic structure collapsing and billion+ people suffering the consequences of poverty and social instability. And for the goods of who? Right, the mental goods of the few Tibetan and Taiwanese separatists and of course, Mark from Canada, who can watch on TV, with pleasures, the trial, verdict and execution of a few communist heads.

Basically, having China go though a f*cked up time is what would make you smile, agree?

Seriously, Mark, I hope you are old enough to die soon. Because otherwise, whether China gradually evolves into a human rights respecting country or goes though revolutionary change in politics, whenever she becomes a "good" regime by major standard, you will find yourself left with nothing but ignorance, biases and possibly hatred towards China.

[Peter Mandelson]

instead of boycotting China

people should understand China a bit more

watching this documentaries would be a good start

http://www.tv-links.co.uk/listings/9/4891

[oily oaf]

The problem with you, Mark, is that "enough done to China", for you, means that the whole Chicom being overflown, that the nation's political and economic structure collapsing and billion+ people suffering the consequences of poverty and social instability. And for the goods of who? Right, the mental goods of the few Tibetan and Taiwanese separatists and of course, Mark from Canada, who can watch on TV, with pleasures, the trial, verdict and execution of a few communist heads.

Basically, having China go though a f*cked up time is what would make you smile, agree?

Seriously, Mark, I hope you are old enough to die soon. Because otherwise, whether China gradually evolves into a human rights respecting country or goes though revolutionary change in politics, whenever she becomes a "good" regime by major standard, you will find yourself left with nothing but ignorance, biases and possibly hatred towards China.


During my time spent in this forum I have never reported a fellow forum member to the moderators or ask that a post be censored or withdrawn. However in your case my friend I'm sorely tempted to make an exception.
To express a desire for the death of a fellow poster who is trying to engage in reasoned and thoughtful debate is beyond the pale IMHO and would I suggest go a considerable way towards reinforcing the belief that China's apologists are more than a little unhinged.
"DEATH TO ALL WHO WOULD OPPOSE THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC!"
Yes that's it! Hahahahahah hehehehehehe bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahah (jibber)

[oily oaf]

instead of boycotting China

people should understand China a bit more

watching this documentaries would be a good start

http://www.tv-links.co.uk/listings/9/4891

Those of us with a balanced, humanitarian take on World politics are more than capable of forming an informed opinion on the unsavoury goings on behind the Bamboo Curtain without the necessity of watching politically slewed pro Sino propaganda documentaries my rather tragically named friend.
Anyway I've already got that DVD. It's in my collection filed under "S" for "Swivel-Eyed Apologism" right alongside "Joe Stalin Loved His Old Mum", "Adolf Hitler's Favourite Bavarian Walks" and "Pol Pot. The Dancing Years"

Do carry on.

[maxu05]

I have lived in China now for 6 years. I have BBC on the tv (it's digital pay tv) and I also check out BBC on the Internet. I have not yet found a website that I cannot access. I have had some problems getting some web sites in peak periods, due to so much traffic on the net here, but I usually get the sites during quieter periods. I watch Motogp online, and I use Shareaza and Limewire with no problems. I love it over here. Yes there is a polution problem, but that is being worked on slowly due to the amount of people here, and the size of the industry here. This problem can't be fixed over night. Every country has it's good points and bad points, but too many people seem to focus on the negatives and not look at the positives of China. The country has a long way to go, but I have seen so many positive changes since I have been here. The people are friendly, eager to improve and generous as well.

[Daniel]

I have lived in China now for 6 years. I have BBC on the tv (it's digital pay tv) and I also check out BBC on the Internet. I have not yet found a website that I cannot access. I have had some problems getting some web sites in peak periods, due to so much traffic on the net here, but I usually get the sites during quieter periods. I watch Motogp online, and I use Shareaza and Limewire with no problems. I love it over here. Yes there is a polution problem, but that is being worked on slowly due to the amount of people here, and the size of the industry here. This problem can't be fixed over night. Every country has it's good points and bad points, but too many people seem to focus on the negatives and not look at the positives of China. The country has a long way to go, but I have seen so many positive changes since I have been here. The people are friendly, eager to improve and generous as well.
That might have something to do with the fact that your get a Chinesey version of the site you're trying to look at and Google will only provide links for sites you're allowed to view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_People's_Republic_of_Ch ina

[maxu05]

:laugh: What is a Chinesey version of a website ? I get all the websites that I am looking for. As for google not letting me have web sites, what a load of rot.

[Drew]

I think what Danny boy means is, go to google images, type in "Tiananmen Square" and see what comes up.

Maxu, are you allowed to view the aussie version of google? If so, no problems :p :

[Peter Mandelson]

Those of us with a balanced, humanitarian take on World politics are more than capable of forming an informed opinion on the unsavoury goings on behind the Bamboo Curtain without the necessity of watching politically slewed pro Sino propaganda documentaries my rather tragically named friend.
Anyway I've already got that DVD. It's in my collection filed under "S" for "Swivel-Eyed Apologism" right alongside "Joe Stalin Loved His Old Mum", "Adolf Hitler's Favourite Bavarian Walks" and "Pol Pot. The Dancing Years"

Do carry on.

carrying on for what

lets me tell you CCP will never collapse in your life time and your wet dream of chinese economy collapsing will never come true lol

anyway are you boycotting F1?

[Peter Mandelson]

Those of us with a balanced, humanitarian take on World politics are more than capable of forming an informed opinion on the unsavoury goings on behind the Bamboo Curtain without the necessity of watching politically slewed pro Sino propaganda documentaries my rather tragically named friend.
Anyway I've already got that DVD. It's in my collection filed under "S" for "Swivel-Eyed Apologism" right alongside "Joe Stalin Loved His Old Mum", "Adolf Hitler's Favourite Bavarian Walks" and "Pol Pot. The Dancing Years"

Do carry on.


you should carry on boycotting london overground

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=462967&in_page_id=1770

[Peter Mandelson]

bird nest lightening up

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=407521&page=13

[Peter Mandelson]

people mover arrive

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=13682856&postcount=548

[Drew]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/25/xin_261201291128961310987.jpg

Back on topic (somewhat) am I the only person who thinks this building is absolutely horrible?

[Caroline]

Wouldn't say it was horrible, but certainly not my kind of building. The overall effect just looks messy and instead of being impressed by it I end up looking at it and wonder how it got to be built. I know the designs are meant to be different and iconic but I'm not sure about this.

[tinchote]

The problem with you, Mark, is that "enough done to China", for you, means that the whole Chicom being overflown, that the nation's political and economic structure collapsing and billion+ people suffering the consequences of poverty and social instability. And for the goods of who? Right, the mental goods of the few Tibetan and Taiwanese separatists and of course, Mark from Canada, who can watch on TV, with pleasures, the trial, verdict and execution of a few communist heads.

Basically, having China go though a f*cked up time is what would make you smile, agree?

Seriously, Mark, I hope you are old enough to die soon. Because otherwise, whether China gradually evolves into a human rights respecting country or goes though revolutionary change in politics, whenever she becomes a "good" regime by major standard, you will find yourself left with nothing but ignorance, biases and possibly hatred towards China.


While I don't agree with Mark on many things, he shows arguments to backup his opinions, and he is always prepared to answer in a reasonable fashion. Which is what you don't seem able to do. Man, you are full of hate! :down:

[oily oaf]

carrying on for what

lets me tell you CCP will never collapse in your life time and your wet dream of chinese economy collapsing will never come true lol

anyway are you boycotting F1?

Now I'm only human and in common with other most men have been known to experience the odd wet dream but I can't seem to recall any of them being based on the collapse of the Chinese economy.
As for F1, I've been boycotting that ever since the retirement of Jim Clark sunshine. :D

Now then, I'll have a number 23, a number 57 and two egg fried rice.
Oh yeah and a jar of pickled eggs.
Do you deliver?

[Dave B]

I agree with all of the above from oily and Mark. The inevitable spectacle of people from the West raving about how amazing China is while ignoring its human rights record and lack of democracy will be a pretty hard one to take. I'm sure it is an amazing country, and it's one I'd like to visit, but I can't help but think about these problems whenever I think of China. How can anyone not when you consider that, in China, you are banned from broadcasting anything which questions the right of the Chinese Communist Party from being in power. Is this the sort of nation we should be holding up as a beacon of anything, no matter how economically successful it is?
Spot on :up:

[Peter Mandelson]

Spot on :up:

NO IT'S NOT SPOT ON

IT IS WRONG TO MIX SPORTS AND POLITICS TOGETHER

[Peter Mandelson]

latest pics of watercube

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=14370092&postcount=713

[Peter Mandelson]

latest pics of watercube

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=14370092&postcount=713

more pics

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=14266378&postcount=212

[Peter Mandelson]

tianjin stadium

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=14206228&postcount=684

[Peter Mandelson]

Ping Pong Stadium

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=12110794&postcount=182

2008 is going to be amazing

[Daniel]

Ping Pong Stadium

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=12110794&postcount=182

2008 is going to be amazing
Stop spamming.....

[Peter Mandelson]

Beijing traffic getting worse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNG4qMS5dzs

[Peter Mandelson]

Stop spamming.....

YO what are you talking about

this thread is about countdown to Beijing

is 'Stop spamming' anything to do with Beijing?

who is spamming here huh

[Daniel]

YO what are you talking about

this thread is about countdown to Beijing

is 'Stop spamming' anything to do with Beijing?

who is spamming here huh
Posting 4 posts mere minutes apart in the same thread on the same topic is called spamming.

[oily oaf]

NO IT'S NOT SPOT ON

IT IS WRONG TO MIX SPORTS AND POLITICS TOGETHER

Calm down Ho Chi Min. You're getting yourself all stressed out over nothing. :(
What you need is some nice relaxation therapy mate :)
Shoot two political prisoners and call me in the morning.
Trust me I'm a car doctor.

Footnote: People with respiratory and heart problems have been advised to stay away from Beijing due to severe air pollution as this could lead to people dying in their thousands.
Be just like old times for you mate won't it :vader:

[oily oaf]

Chinese womens pole vault champion Stin Ke Pu in pensive mood as she prepares for her final attempt at 1m 6cm

[tinchote]

:laugh: What is a Chinesey version of a website ? I get all the websites that I am looking for. As for google not letting me have web sites, what a load of rot.

I was in China in 2005 (Xian, Beijing) and 2007 (Tianjin, Beijing). In both cases I could never open, among others, the BBC site, nor http://www.phdcomics.com, for that matter.

Just in case you are wondering, I am a heavy internet user with experience as a system adminstrator, so I can tell when a name server is not resolving the names I'm asking.

[ozrevhead]

Qualifying Times

1 27 Casey STONER AUS Ducati Marlboro Team DUCATI 1'56.884 13 14 291.6
2 1 Nicky HAYDEN USA Repsol Honda Team HONDA 1'57.164 21 23 0.280 0.280 289.2
3 26 Dani PEDROSA SPA Repsol Honda Team HONDA 1'57.179 22 24 0.295 0.015 290.9
4 21 John HOPKINS USA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP SUZUKI 1'57.567 20 22 0.683 0.388 283.7
5 14 Randy DE PUNIET FRA Kawasaki Racing Team KAWASAKI 1'57.599 20 20 0.715 0.032 286.0
6 46 Valentino ROSSI ITA Fiat Yamaha Team YAMAHA 1'57.640 24 25 0.756 0.041 284.4
7 65 Loris CAPIROSSI ITA Ducati Marlboro Team DUCATI 1'57.665 16 20 0.781 0.025 289.6
8 71 Chris VERMEULEN AUS Rizla Suzuki MotoGP SUZUKI 1'57.699 21 22 0.815 0.034 284.1
9 5 Colin EDWARDS USA Fiat Yamaha Team YAMAHA 1'57.702 24 25 0.818 0.003 281.7
10 50 Sylvain GUINTOLI FRA Dunlop Yamaha Tech 3 YAMAHA 1'57.732 23 23 0.848 0.030 282.9
11 56 Shinya NAKANO JPN Konica Minolta Honda HONDA 1'57.969 22 22 1.085 0.237 282.6
12 7 Carlos CHECA SPA Honda LCR HONDA 1'58.143 20 21 1.259 0.174 282.8
13 4 Alex BARROS BRA Pramac d'Antin DUCATI 1'58.204 16 20 1.320 0.061 288.1
14 24 Toni ELIAS SPA Honda Gresini HONDA 1'58.264 22 22 1.380 0.060 286.1
15 6 Makoto TAMADA JPN Dunlop Yamaha Tech 3 YAMAHA 1'58.399 23 23 1.515 0.135 283.2
16 13 Anthony WEST AUS Kawasaki Racing Team KAWASAKI 1'59.386 9 22 2.502 0.987 285.7
17 80 Kurtis ROBERTS USA Team Roberts KR212V 1'59.446 17 22 2.562 0.060 280.7
18 22 Ivan SILVA SPA Pramac d'Antin DUCATI 1'59.721 16 16 2.837 0.275 286.0

Very Nice :D :up:

[pino]

oz, are you ok ? :p :

[tinchote]

oz, are you ok ? :p :

Good question! :D

Can you ban a member for hijacking his own thread? ;) :p :

[Mark in Oshawa]

Good question! :D

Can you ban a member for hijacking his own thread? ;) :p :

I think he just needs more coffee...and a few less windows open!

[pino]

I think he just needs more coffee...and a few less windows open!

Not he, but she ;) and tin, I cannot ban her...she's half italian :p :

[oily oaf]

The tension is almost unbearable as the competitors line up for the Final of the 1500m Steeplechase.

[schmenke]

I was in China in 2005 (Xian, Beijing) and 2007 (Tianjin, Beijing). In both cases I could never open, among others, the BBC site, nor www.phdcomics.com (http://www.phdcomics.com), for that matter. ....

I had similar experiences when I was living in China. There were several web sites that were not accessible, google and bbc.co.uk were some of the obvious ones :mark: .

[dchen]

NO IT'S NOT SPOT ON

IT IS WRONG TO MIX SPORTS AND POLITICS TOGETHER

So you agree that Taiwan should be allowed to enter as Taiwan, ROC rather than Chinese Taipei?

[Rollo]

I hope that China Airlines aren't the official carrier.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44067000/jpg/_44067899_flames203iap.jpg

676 deaths in 10 years, and they were "lucky" here.

[oily oaf]

I hope that China Airlines aren't the official carrier.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44067000/jpg/_44067899_flames203iap.jpg

676 deaths in 10 years, and they were "lucky" here.

Only 676? Why that's small beer in comparison to the thousands that lose their lives in mining disasters in The Peoples Republic Rollo.

[paulcrazy]

I hope that China Airlines aren't the official carrier.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44067000/jpg/_44067899_flames203iap.jpg

676 deaths in 10 years, and they were "lucky" here.

No worry, this is a taiwanese based airline which isn't related to mainland china.

[tinchote]

No worry, this is a taiwanese based airline which isn't related to mainland china.

How about this one:

http://ev03023.math.uregina.ca/fotos/DontLook.jpg

;)

Now, talking seriously, I've flown Chinese airlines a couple of times and I couldn't see anything wrong with them, other than the mess at the gate.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tin, they are a damned sight safer than AEROFLOT. At least the Chinese Carriers use equipment that most Western Airlines use.....Great photo BTW.

[paulcrazy]

How about this one:

http://ev03023.math.uregina.ca/fotos/DontLook.jpg

;)

Now, talking seriously, I've flown Chinese airlines a couple of times and I couldn't see anything wrong with them, other than the mess at the gate.

tin, Mandarin Airlines is also a taiwanese airline I am sure.

[Daniel]

Perhaps China should just invade Taiwan so they can improve their airlines since it seems they're so dangerous :rolleyes:

[Schultz]

Perhaps China should just invade Taiwan so they can improve their airlines since it seems they're so dangerous :rolleyes:

I really wonder.. If taiwan were to become slightly more aggressive in their claims for independence, how would China respond with the olympics just around the corner? Imagine taiwan was to do the unthinkable and declare independence.... Military action would surely see the olympics boycotted and cancelled as a show of the worlds disatisfaction with such action.

How important is the olympics to China, comparative to their sovereignty over Taiwan?

[Daniel]

tin, Mandarin Airlines is also a taiwanese airline I am sure.
Turns out it's 93.99% owned by China Airlines buddy.

[Daniel]

I really wonder.. If taiwan were to become slightly more aggressive in their claims for independence, how would China respond with the olympics just around the corner? Imagine taiwan was to do the unthinkable and declare independence.... Military action would surely see the olympics boycotted and cancelled as a show of the worlds disatisfaction with such action.

How important is the olympics to China, comparative to their sovereignty over Taiwan?
Exactly ;)

[schmenke]

Turns out it's 93.99% owned by China Airlines buddy.

China Airlines is Taiwanese, based in Taipei :)

[Daniel]

That's just frigging confusing. It belongs to the ROC and not the PROC which is the evil China we all know and love :)

[Malbec]

I really wonder.. If taiwan were to become slightly more aggressive in their claims for independence, how would China respond with the olympics just around the corner? Imagine taiwan was to do the unthinkable and declare independence.... Military action would surely see the olympics boycotted and cancelled as a show of the worlds disatisfaction with such action.

How important is the olympics to China, comparative to their sovereignty over Taiwan?

They won't do anything serious to Taiwan, but it looks like the Taiwanese people are happy with the status quo, not wanting to 're-unite' with China or declare formal independence.

Taiwan is by far China's biggest direct investor, outstripping Japan and the United States. China cannot afford to lose that or even risk lowering that investment and the Taiwanese need the cheaper production facilities on the mainland to survive as cheap computer component manufacturers. And if China really threatens to invade Taiwan that'll scare off all the Western investors too.

It all boils down to globalisation again and the Chinese need to maintain a stunning rate of growth. Talk about a golden straitjacket.

I'm sure there will be petty arguments about what flag the Taiwanese are allowed to use and other one-upmanship games but thats as far as it will go.

[Daniel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/6958944.stm

[Mark in Oshawa]

That is a very intersting question Dylan, what will the Taiwanese do when they enter Beiijing's Olympic Stadium? Will they fly some sort of Olympic flag, will some athlete make a political statement and carry some little "Taiwan" flag?

I do know this much, the Beiijing government is wanting to use this as a propaganda exercise but you know someone is going to take advantage of this invasion of Beiijing by the world to make a statement, and they will have to sit there and TAKE it....

[Daniel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6958492.stm nice to see the chinese are "balancing" things out after their toys and foodstuffs have had to be recalled. :rolleyes:

[Malbec]

That is a very intersting question Dylan, what will the Taiwanese do when they enter Beiijing's Olympic Stadium? Will they fly some sort of Olympic flag, will some athlete make a political statement and carry some little "Taiwan" flag?

In all the previous Olympics the Taiwanese have presented themselves as 'Chinese Taipei' and paraded under the old Nationalist flag. That seems to be to both their satisfaction and I presume that will happen next year too.

And I think it would be naive NOT to think anyone will take advantage of the media frenzy that will surround the Olympics. I'd expect a clampdown on the usual suspects from a good while before the games start though.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Dylan, the clampdown may be on the locals, but they wont get away with trying to muzzle Westerners that way. Someone will come to China and make some sort of statement and the Chinese will be fuming about it, and not able to do a damned thing. Tibet isn't going away, and many trendy types, and libertarians such as myself feel China's occupation of Tibet is wrong, and someone will I am sure want to make a statement for Tibet. It happened a few weeks back that some "troublemakers" from the west put a banner on the Great Wall for a free Tibet. It was just the start.

[dchen]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6958492.stm nice to see the chinese are "balancing" things out after their toys and foodstuffs have had to be recalled. :rolleyes:

And then you got this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070817/ap_on_re_as/china_bridge_collapse_2

I do wonder how they will silent the Western medias, and I bet there will be Taiwanese athletes using next summer's events to make some statements.

BTW, China will likely attack Taiwan if it does indeed declare official independence. Remember a few years ago when China was lobbing missiles over Taiwan, just to land a bit off the east coast of Taiwan? That was when President Lee said something negative about the unification, so think what may happen if Taiwan does declare independence.

[Peter Mandelson]

hello everyone

please read the story of "The Six Blind Men and China"
http://home.wangjianshuo.com/archives/20061202_the_blind_men_and_the_elephant.htm

people see China through their own eyes so they conclude differently

but unfortunately most people on this forum are the first blind man

rather than being the first blind man, listening to other five men would draw up better conclusion for yourself

hope you lots don't stay as the first blind men for life, or you're missing out opportunities China is offering



p.s. Tibet is part of China forever, just deal with it

[tinchote]

hello everyone

please read the story of "The Six Blind Men and China"
http://home.wangjianshuo.com/archives/20061202_the_blind_men_and_the_elephant.htm

people see China through their own eyes so they conclude differently

but unfortunately most people on this forum are the first blind man

rather than being the first blind man, listening to other five men would draw up better conclusion for yourself

hope you lots don't stay as the first blind men for life, or you're missing out opportunities China is offering



p.s. Tibet is part of China forever, just deal with it

Touching only one part of the elefant may not give you the whole picture, but that doesn't prevent you from drawing conclusions: the person touching the tail, for instance, can assert "the elephant has a tail".

One real life analog is "the Chinese government systematically violates human rights"; you don't need to know everything about China to say that, it is enough to know that single piece of information.

[oily oaf]

Touching only one part of the elefant may not give you the whole picture, but that doesn't prevent you from drawing conclusions: the person touching the tail, for instance, can assert "the elephant has a tail".

One real life analog is "the Chinese government systematically violates human rights"; you don't need to know everything about China to say that, it is enough to know that single piece of information.

Confuscious him say "You're spot on there mate"

[Daniel]

p.s. Tibet is part of China forever, just deal with it

I hope one day your country gets invaded and your culture is destroyed just so China can be "part" of another country.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hey Pete, they pay you to say these things? I mean, it is all about the almighty buck to you I know....

[Malbec]

Someone will come to China and make some sort of statement and the Chinese will be fuming about it, and not able to do a damned thing. Tibet isn't going away, and many trendy types, and libertarians such as myself feel China's occupation of Tibet is wrong, and someone will I am sure want to make a statement for Tibet.

Lets hope that someone does get a statement in, the Chinese government need to know that we do know whats going on there.

Having said that its also true that Tibet will always now be part of China.

And thats the conundrum.

Usually unpleasant regimes are small enough to ignore (Zimbabwe) unless they have or threaten to have nukes (Iran or North Korea) but even the most dangerous ones aren't really world players in any serious way. The mere fact that they have to use the nuclear card to even get noticed says it all.

China is different. There are some things about China that are unpleasant but will improve, ie human rights, transparent legal and economical systems, political freedom because the Chinese government and economy cannot survive without reform to keep growing. There are other things about China that are unpleasant and will not improve but may actually worsen as China gets more powerful both politically and militarily in line with its economic growth. One of the ways in which we'll notice it is in the way it deals with countries with no significant Chinese minority. To put it bluntly they have and probably always will approach foreign policy issues with the attitude 'whats in it for us'.

The West has intervened in some parts of the world through a genuine sense of altruism (albeit sometimes too late) like in the Balkans, Somalia (under George Bush Sr) and Rwanda. The Chinese have never been interested in such activity and in fact have opposed them on principle because foreign intervention could eventually be brought to bear on Tibet too. They only look at problems with their own gain or loss in mind.

Right now its not much of a problem, the only time we notice it is when they use their veto at the security council (and even then their recent U-turn over Darfur only happened after being threatened informally with bad press at the Olympics) but eventually as China catches up and overtakes the US economically and therefore more likely than not militarily too their attitude will begin to have a significant impact on world affairs. Thats what we have to think about.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Dylan, very nice post, and I agree with you on China does what they think is always best for them. Period. They don't care if they run over half the world if they can gain from it. It does explain their Sudan policy wonderfully doesn't it? The fact Sudan is full of Chinese investment in the oil fields there is a lot of it also. China joins the chrous of demands to stop the oppression in Darfur, and maybe they don't get the exclusive access to the oil

Tibet may never be free, but that doesn't make it right. Furthermore, Iam not optimistic things will get better in China on a human rights side unless something radical happens, and as we all know, the Chinese are not prone to being radical. The process of change there is methodical and controlled. That will stop any reformers from gaining power in the Politiburo or the PLA. That means the status quo for the most part.

The really sad part is the Chinese people are industrious as any people on earth, but they are saddled with this regime that is quite happy to make most of them wage slaves....

[Schultz]

Lets hope that someone does get a statement in, the Chinese government need to know that we do know whats going on there.

Having said that its also true that Tibet will always now be part of China.

And thats the conundrum.

Usually unpleasant regimes are small enough to ignore (Zimbabwe) unless they have or threaten to have nukes (Iran or North Korea) but even the most dangerous ones aren't really world players in any serious way. The mere fact that they have to use the nuclear card to even get noticed says it all.

China is different. There are some things about China that are unpleasant but will improve, ie human rights, transparent legal and economical systems, political freedom because the Chinese government and economy cannot survive without reform to keep growing. There are other things about China that are unpleasant and will not improve but may actually worsen as China gets more powerful both politically and militarily in line with its economic growth. One of the ways in which we'll notice it is in the way it deals with countries with no significant Chinese minority. To put it bluntly they have and probably always will approach foreign policy issues with the attitude 'whats in it for us'.

The West has intervened in some parts of the world through a genuine sense of altruism (albeit sometimes too late) like in the Balkans, Somalia (under George Bush Sr) and Rwanda. The Chinese have never been interested in such activity and in fact have opposed them on principle because foreign intervention could eventually be brought to bear on Tibet too. They only look at problems with their own gain or loss in mind.

Right now its not much of a problem, the only time we notice it is when they use their veto at the security council (and even then their recent U-turn over Darfur only happened after being threatened informally with bad press at the Olympics) but eventually as China catches up and overtakes the US economically and therefore more likely than not militarily too their attitude will begin to have a significant impact on world affairs. Thats what we have to think about.

Personally I find it disgusting that you even mention Rwanda in the same sentence as altruism. Rwanda was the most lackluster response to gross human rights violations in the history of mankind full stop. The western world did not seriously step in until the Tutsi's had basically won the war.

While I respect the role Canada played, WE should ALL be ashamed of how inactive the world community was in response to the genocide that occurred.

Apart from this, it's a good post. China's approach to world affairs has been "you keep out of my internal affairs and i'll keep out of yours". I do not want a soul superpower to have an attitude such as this, and i am thankful the United States is not so blind sighted. However, not for one second do i believe China will continue to ignore the domestic human rights violations in other nations once it becomes a superpower. Things will change. By the time China becomes a superpower I would like to think the world would operate like a democracy.

[Drew]

p.s. Tibet is part of China forever, just deal with it

How's it feel to be a troll?

The English are a bunch of whining tosspots

Wales is a part of England.

Scotland's miserable and gloomy,

Northern Ireland is full of terrorists,

The Irish are just alcoholics,

Yoghurt has more culture than Australia,

Karelia will always be Russian,

Canada's a second rate USA,

USA sucks,

Kiwis are sheep shaggers,

Cows are better than donkeys.

That should be enough to annoy 80% of motorsport forums. Meh, it doesn't feel so great really...

And I don't mean any of that, btw :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Personally I find it disgusting that you even mention Rwanda in the same sentence as altruism. Rwanda was the most lackluster response to gross human rights violations in the history of mankind full stop. The western world did not seriously step in until the Tutsi's had basically won the war.

While I respect the role Canada played, WE should ALL be ashamed of how inactive the world community was in response to the genocide that occurred.

Apart from this, it's a good post. China's approach to world affairs has been "you keep out of my internal affairs and i'll keep out of yours". I do not want a soul superpower to have an attitude such as this, and i am thankful the United States is not so blind sighted. However, not for one second do i believe China will continue to ignore the domestic human rights violations in other nations once it becomes a superpower. Things will change. By the time China becomes a superpower I would like to think the world would operate like a democracy.

You are 100% on the money about Rwanda, but hey, don't let reality get in the way with the prevailing view that everything is America's fault.

AS for China being a democracy for when they are a superpower, I say you are dead wrong. Why? Simple, because there is no evidence to support your view. China is as an oppressive society now as they have ever been. They have felt no remorse about stealing patents, stealing organs from political prisoners, putting members of religious movements behind bars, executing polticians for ineptitude (I must admit they may have an idea there in some sick sort of way) and meddling in the internal affairs of their neighbours, and backing the Sudanese in letting them commit genocide in Darfur.

I don't see any light in the tunnel for the Chinese to change their ways based on what I see now, and it is why it was wrong for the IOC to grant Beiijing the Olympics. Civilized nations with democratic principles should be hosting the greatest show on earth, especially when that show proclaims how much they are for clean competition, human dignity and human rights.

[Malbec]

Furthermore, Iam not optimistic things will get better in China on a human rights side unless something radical happens, and as we all know, the Chinese are not prone to being radical. The process of change there is methodical and controlled. That will stop any reformers from gaining power in the Politiburo or the PLA. That means the status quo for the most part.

I think you'll find that the Chinese goverment has been run by radicals within the Communist party for nearly two to three decades now. I'm afraid that you're totally wrong if you think the Chinese haven't reformed.

About forty years ago they had the Cultural revolution. Thirty years ago they had a totally centralised economy that was similar to North Korea. In only two decades or so they've swung from the extreme left to the extreme right in terms of economic planning with remarkably little trouble. These guys who run the country understand Capitalist principles in a way few people outside Wall Street or the City do, remarkable for people born and raised as Communists don't you think? Certainly their ability to make bold and tough decisions quickly and institute sweeping reforms puts Japan with 60 years of experience of running a Capitalist economy to shame.

Then there are the reforms to the judiciary. Forty years ago there weren't courts apart for show trials. Now the Chinese are introducing a trial by jury system from the bottom up. Previously membership of the Communist party was sufficient to ensure impunity, now senior members of the party are arrested and tried for corruption. It may not be perfect but large leaps forward are being made. Elections are being introduced at various levels within the Communist party too that all are free to vote in.

It would be foolish to ignore these steps. They are very real and are improving the state of play within China although there is much progress left to be made. Simply writing them off as being totalitarian does noone any favours, and given the shift of power that will occur away from the West and towards China, you have more to lose from misunderstanding them than they have, and it would appear from their behaviour that they understand the West very well indeed.

[Malbec]

You are 100% on the money about Rwanda, but hey, don't let reality get in the way with the prevailing view that everything is America's fault.

AS for China being a democracy for when they are a superpower, I say you are dead wrong. Why? Simple, because there is no evidence to support your view. China is as an oppressive society now as they have ever been. They have felt no remorse about stealing patents, stealing organs from political prisoners, putting members of religious movements behind bars, executing polticians for ineptitude (I must admit they may have an idea there in some sick sort of way) and meddling in the internal affairs of their neighbours, and backing the Sudanese in letting them commit genocide in Darfur.

Schultz, I thought carefully about Rwanda but in the end put it in because the West DID finally deploy troops, even if it was just to clean up the dead bodies. We didn't need to. I agree though, our inaction was cowardly and unforgiveable.

Mark, I'm not entirely sure where your reference to America comes from. China won't discriminate between America or Canada or Europe that much.

I think you're right in that the Chinese will not end up with an identical political flavour to the West but I do believe they will end up with some form of Democracy. Why? Because political decisions there are driven by economic necessity. There will be a point in China's development where the enriched middle classes will demand some say in how their hard earnt tax dollars are spent, where multinationals of Chinese origin and other business concerns will demand government accountability to protect their investments and when international investors, ie you when you decide which investment fund you deposit your surplus dollars in, will demand the same. We can already see the steps being made towards democracy in China.

Every economy that has gone beyond a certain point has succumbed to democracy at some point, South Korea used to be a remarkably unpleasant military dictatorship easily on a par or worse than China now (they had their own massacre in the 80s which made Tienanmen square look like a picnic) but shifted towards democracy rather successfully. Taiwan, Singapore and to some extent Malaysia and Indonesia have followed suit. Thailand has taken a step back recently but they too shifted towards democracy with economic development.

However China has its own way of doing things and I believe that whatever they end up doing, it will not be the same as our way of doing things even though it will be democratic.

It ought to be remembered also that a democratic China may not really be pleasant to deal with. By definition a democracy behaves in a way that largely reflects the will of the populace. The current Chinese government doesn't have that restriction and behaves with the rest of the world in a way that many segments of the Chinese population feels is too restrained.

With the rise of nationalist sentiment and pride in Chinese power, would you really feel comfortable with having an ultranationalist and aggressive democratically elected Chinese government? And before you disagree that a democratically elected goverment can be aggressive I'll point out that the Israelis have often elected governments solely on the basis of their willingness to squeeze the Palestinians harder. The Chinese are going to have a much bigger effect on the world stage than the Israelis.

[BDunnell]

It ought to be remembered also that a democratic China may not really be pleasant to deal with. By definition a democracy behaves in a way that largely reflects the will of the populace. The current Chinese government doesn't have that restriction and behaves with the rest of the world in a way that many segments of the Chinese population feels is too restrained.

With the rise of nationalist sentiment and pride in Chinese power, would you really feel comfortable with having an ultranationalist and aggressive democratically elected Chinese government? And before you disagree that a democratically elected goverment can be aggressive I'll point out that the Israelis have often elected governments solely on the basis of their willingness to squeeze the Palestinians harder. The Chinese are going to have a much bigger effect on the world stage than the Israelis.

This is a good and interesting point. Russia is another excellent example, of course.

[tinchote]

With the rise of nationalist sentiment and pride in Chinese power, would you really feel comfortable with having an ultranationalist and aggressive democratically elected Chinese government? And before you disagree that a democratically elected goverment can be aggressive I'll point out that the Israelis have often elected governments solely on the basis of their willingness to squeeze the Palestinians harder. The Chinese are going to have a much bigger effect on the world stage than the Israelis.

Reasonable, and scary :s

[Mark in Oshawa]

Schultz, I thought carefully about Rwanda but in the end put it in because the West DID finally deploy troops, even if it was just to clean up the dead bodies. We didn't need to. I agree though, our inaction was cowardly and unforgiveable.

Mark, I'm not entirely sure where your reference to America comes from. China won't discriminate between America or Canada or Europe that much.

I think you're right in that the Chinese will not end up with an identical political flavour to the West but I do believe they will end up with some form of Democracy. Why? Because political decisions there are driven by economic necessity. There will be a point in China's development where the enriched middle classes will demand some say in how their hard earnt tax dollars are spent, where multinationals of Chinese origin and other business concerns will demand government accountability to protect their investments and when international investors, ie you when you decide which investment fund you deposit your surplus dollars in, will demand the same. We can already see the steps being made towards democracy in China.

Every economy that has gone beyond a certain point has succumbed to democracy at some point, South Korea used to be a remarkably unpleasant military dictatorship easily on a par or worse than China now (they had their own massacre in the 80s which made Tienanmen square look like a picnic) but shifted towards democracy rather successfully. Taiwan, Singapore and to some extent Malaysia and Indonesia have followed suit. Thailand has taken a step back recently but they too shifted towards democracy with economic development.

However China has its own way of doing things and I believe that whatever they end up doing, it will not be the same as our way of doing things even though it will be democratic.

It ought to be remembered also that a democratic China may not really be pleasant to deal with. By definition a democracy behaves in a way that largely reflects the will of the populace. The current Chinese government doesn't have that restriction and behaves with the rest of the world in a way that many segments of the Chinese population feels is too restrained.

With the rise of nationalist sentiment and pride in Chinese power, would you really feel comfortable with having an ultranationalist and aggressive democratically elected Chinese government? And before you disagree that a democratically elected goverment can be aggressive I'll point out that the Israelis have often elected governments solely on the basis of their willingness to squeeze the Palestinians harder. The Chinese are going to have a much bigger effect on the world stage than the Israelis.

Most excellent rebuttal and explaination. I cant really say you are wrong on any of it except that Tianamen Square wasn't that long ago, and I can say that I think the middle class and business class of China must be always worried about exercising any desire for more say.

The only reason why I am so hard on China is that on economic grounds, they have seen the light. I think by saying to them "that's great, but at some point, you have to join the real world "and realize that the rest of the world doesn't kill people for mistakes, doesn't jail peaceful demonstators, and admitting Tibet may deserve some form of self government would not weaken China. They are so close on many fronts...and yet showing no signs of ever really making those final steps from a one party state with no political freedoms towards something we could respect as a democratic state.

Until they make those final steps, I cant respect their goverment and the way it does business. Lets face it, when it comes to caring for human life, look no further than the number of toys and products now being found to have made it to the West with Lead paint. How about the tainted pet food? There is NO checks and balances in their capitalist system either. No real inspections for safety, no respect of patents. Look at the number of knock off copies of vehicles that were built in China for domestic use. Any of the protections for the individual or business we have in the rest of the developed world, the government there will only pay lip service to.

China is a huge country, with massive potential, a great workforce, and yes, a unique culture, but we should never condone human rights abuses in the name of progress. The Great leap forward, the 5 year plan, all that good propaganda is all excuses for communist regimes to deny their own people the power to choose. Now you have refomed commies running a really large capitalist engine that is the world's largest economy, and still playing games like abducting citizens of other countries working on the Tibeten freedom movement off the streets.

If one wants to look at a third world nation of a large size making great strides while providing democracy, look to India, which is a very similar nation in terms of population. They haven't abandoned the concept of democracy and they are not far behind the Chinese. I can respect what India is doing, I cant respect many of the things the Chinese do.