The 307 WRC

[WelshLegend]

After thinking about this today i just had to put it on the forum.
We all know that the 206WRC had become long in the tooth and could be developed no more. That is when Peugeot introduced the 307WRC in coupe/cabriolet form. We also know the the 307 was a dog of a car to handle in my opinion due to the length of the car.
The point i am trying to get at is why didnt Peugeot introduce the 307 in normal hatchback form?? :confused:


WelshLegend

[Donney]

I reckon it had to do with some sort of marketing decision, but I could be wrong.

[Flyinglex]

2 door is stifer than 4 doors usually...

[jonkka]

I am bound to support the marketing-insisted -theory too.

[Josti]

Probably right Donney, I still have an early drawing of the 307 WRC hatchback version with the silver/red Total colours in some magazine. It was an official one as I can remember, but they went for the coupé.

[MJW]

I remeber reading somewhere that the 307 hatchback was "too tall" a car and the COG would be too high. Michelle Nandam - Cheif Engineer at Peugeot is now chief engineer at Suzuki, and teh SX4 is even more of a LandRover "tall car" - personally I suspect it was the marketing men.

[AndyRAC]

Yes, I heard it was the marketing men, just proves what we all know. Marketing men know f**k all about Rallying. Leave it to the professionals and engineers.

[jonas_mcrae]

2 door is stifer than 4 doors usually...

but there is a 2door version for the 307 hatch isnt it?

[rwssport]

And wasn't the 206 something to do with the marketing bods as well... Must have been one hell of a tight fit to get all the bits and bobs inside that engine bay...

[AndyRAC]

Didn't Hyundai want to use the Coupe, but the marketing men preferred the Accent? Can't think why, they didn't bring a hot version out, a complete waste if you ask me. What's the point of promoting a car if you can only buy a 1.6l chug-a-long car.

[Zico]

This car p****d me off so bad I tell you!. I remember posting a thread on this very subject a year or 2 back back.. It certainly was a strange decision. I'd always thought the 206 a very beautiful rallycar then it went downhill from there. The 307 coupe was just wrong.. How more accurate a description can you get than "The Whale" :D
What were the marketting guys thinking?... How many hairdressers do you know that are into rallying?



Rant over.. ;)

[Koz]

In 04, if it didnt have technical problems all the time... It would have won alot more rallies!
Marcus and Harri had a 1-2 before they got disqualified.
Does anyone here think that the transmission was more at fault of loosing rallies than the length of the car?

What about the pace Marcus around the end of 05?

The 307CC is shorter in both height and length than the Impreza. Had the 307 hatch been used, it would have been around 5" taller than the Impreza.

The Focus is just one inch shorter (length) than the 307CC isnt it (and also 7.7cm higher) ?
I dont that 1inch should be such a big factor. Should it?

(Dimentions of the cars must be the same as the ones avilable in the shop right? If not, then I guess I would be wrong about the above.)


Also, 206 was a very beautiful car! But they are too expensive here :( Otherwise I would have got one for myself :p

[jonkka]

(Dimentions of the cars must be the same as the ones avilable in the shop right? If not, then I guess I would be wrong about the above.)

Only length. Width can be expanded to 1800mm (if 4.2m long car) if less to begin with and height varies with the specification, tarmac cars being much lower than the gravel spec cars. Height of the bodyshell itself is the same as that of the standard car, though.

[leopard]

I think generally 4 doors car gains more constant devotee than the 2 doors' one.
Two doors car has very segmented consumers because it was very seasonal and sporty image is the point what they want to sell than the function.
To make the 2 doors dimension proportional the length usually must be shorter than the 4 doors.

[Donney]

The funny thing is Peugeot have gone to the 207 for their IRC campaign.

[AndyRAC]

As I drive a Seat I seem to remember they misunderstood the regulations regarding WRC length. So instead of using turning the Ibiza into a WRCar they used the larger Cordoba. Only to find Peugeot using the 206 and using extended front and rear bumpers, I don't think they were impressed.

[cut the b.s.]

As I drive a Seat I seem to remember they misunderstood the regulations regarding WRC length. So instead of using turning the Ibiza into a WRCar they used the larger Cordoba. Only to find Peugeot using the 206 and using extended front and rear bumpers, I don't think they were impressed.

Seat didnt misunderstand the regs, Peugeot just found a way to bend them, if I remember correct Peugeot threatened that it would be 206 or no Pug back then.

307 was a marketing thing, but I'm not sure that other than getting the cage and drivers packed into a small area that it had any other negative effects?

[jonkka]

Nobody misunderstood or bent regulations. Regulations were clear, to build a WRCar, the car it was based upon had to be 4000mm long, at minimum. Neither basic Ibiza nor 206 were of that size. Where Seat settled with alternative base car, Peugeot was clever enough to ask whether producing a limited edition car (with slightly bigger bumpers that made that particular model meet the minimum length) would be OK and got green light. As old adage goes, there is no harm in asking.

[Nenukknak]

307 was already longer on the market (and possibly looked too much as the 206), the 307CC was new so the CC became the WRC. But both in sportive and marketing ways the 307CC wrc was no succes. IMO one of the few rallycars where the rallycar looked actually worse than it's road-going counterpart.

But the choice of rallycar is always based on marketing, and then it's up to engineers to create something decent. Most rallycars are chosen that way. Ove Andersson always wanted to use the Corolla for instance, but had to use the Celica.
Audi sticking to it's original layout to keep it close to the roadcar. Hyundai going to the Accent, Lancia moving from 037 to DeltaS4, all is marketing, and I think that is logical, although some choices turn out not to be great afterwards.

[LotusElise]

In 04, if it didnt have technical problems all the time... It would have won alot more rallies!
Marcus and Harri had a 1-2 before they got disqualified.
Does anyone here think that the transmission was more at fault of loosing rallies than the length of the car?



That four-speed gearbox was a definite mistake, but I'm not sure that that was the only thing to blame. The whole project was too led by marketing decisions.

[Donney]

I remember lots of complaints about dampers also.

[LeonBrooke]

Apparently Markko Martin had problems with the Peugeot-manufactured dampers and trialled some third-party dampers for some early 2005 rallies.

Maybe it was just Peugeot's downswing: All teams have them. The 307 CC/WRC doesn't have to have been a bad car (and in Manfred Stohl's and Henning Solberg's hands it was good), perhaps the other manufacturers were simply doing a better job at the time.

[Mickey T]

Peugeot actually sought and received permission from every other WRC team to run the 206 because it was too short. Seat didn't.

the problems with the whales were largely gearbox, dampers and tyres. five speed whales on ohlins and michelins were pretty sharp, user friendly devices and made a lot of privateers look good

[Motorsportfun]

Peugeot didn't received any permission by the other teams, because the road car (a Peugeot 206 "GT", with big bumpers to arrive to 4 m) it was "at the limit".

[jonas_mcrae]

manfred shouldv stayed running the 307 and he wouldnt be in the whole he is now because of that "lemon" Xsara

[WelshLegend]

So we can blame the Peugeot marketing team for their failure in the WRC from 2004-2005

WelshLegend

[cut the b.s.]

So we can blame the Peugeot marketing team for their failure in the WRC from 2004-2005

WelshLegend

how do you deduce this? You started this post, and it has been interesting to read but I would blame the engineers, the 206 had run its course and what other better option was available?

[WelshLegend]

I deduce it quite easily in fact. The engineers did the best they could with the 307 coupe, but it was not good enough because the car is crap for the WRC. We know that the engineers are world class because they created the 206WRC with devestating success.
There were a few alternatives to the coupe 307 i.e. a 3 door 307, totally re-designed 206, 407.


WelshLegend

[J4MIE]

I thought the 2005 307 looked fantastic :up:

[Erki]

That four-speed gearbox was a definite mistake, but I'm not sure that that was the only thing to blame. The whole project was too led by marketing decisions.

Tree gears is enough!

[Koz]

Tree gears is enough!

Tree is always enough, unless you are headed straight for it :P

Didnt the 307 have the 5-pseed gearbox that time??

Also why did the 206 stop being competitve?

[GigiGalliNo1]

manfred shouldv stayed running the 307 and he wouldnt be in the whole he is now because of that "lemon" Xsara

yes! I believe that too! would have been great! and gigi! both in a team! :( unfortunately not happened but still would have been nice... reckon gigi could have done well at the beginning of the year with the 307 if he didn't have the xsara? :)


Also why did the 206 stop being competitve?

no body used them in the WRC.. maybe once or twice? Rossi, but not sure if the 307 was out then....

[Koz]

no body used them in the WRC.. maybe once or twice? Rossi, but not sure if the 307 was out then....

Huh?

[Tumbo]

privateers still run the 206; pug made a decision based on which model they wanted to promote in their new range 207/307 end of the 2003 season when the 206 was starting to lose out to the subarus and citroen. Rossi used one back in 2002 at the RAC when the factory team still ran them; but there are still 206s on the stages

[GigiGalliNo1]

Huh?

you dont understand what I wrote? ?!!?!?

[feresc13]

The one that used Rossi in RAC Rally was the old one, look at the air entrances, and this was on 2002, the 206 WRC was reitred from service at the end of the 2003 season.

http://www.raisport.rai.it/pub/static/14800/20021114RallyRacRossi.jpg

Many other private drivers used a 206 WRC when it was out of works team, by now I can remember Auriol and Pons in Monte-Carlo 2005, Vojtech in Catalunya Rally 2006 and Triviño in Catalunya Rally 2005 and Finland 2007.

But as well as you said, as the 206 WRC had no development, they didn't had success.

And if Manfred should continue with the 307... I'm not sure that could have more success than in a Xsara, because the Xsara was developed since last year by Citroën engineers dressed of Kronos, and the 307's development was stopped in 2005.

And I'm not sure if a car with electronic differentials could run nowadays, can somebody help me? M2 teams must have specifications from 2006, or can still running with 2005 specifications?

[Koz]

pug made a decision based on which model they wanted to promote in their new range 207/307 end of the 2003 season when the 206 was starting to lose out to the subarus and citroen.

Well thats what I dont get. Why didnt Peugoet just get an evolution or something to update and develop their 206 abit more? Which is still in production... Why change the entire platform and move to a 307(CC at that)??
Was there some inherent weakness in the 206 that could not be overcome to challenge the Xara and the Impreza?

Marcus did win 3 rallies in 03...

[jure dvorsek]

My opinion: 307 was not a bad car, a lot more competetive than Impreza last year or even this year. The main problem were Pirelli's-Marcus had no chance agaist Loeb's Michelin. At that time Pirelli started to lose ground against Michelin. Dampers were minor problem.
Engine of 307 is still one of the strongest and with BFS this year it could still be a car in top five.
For me is still a very nice WRC.
You can not compare 206 against 307(and I love 206 also, still beautiful)-yust read, what have said drivers, who drove both cars. It is two years of development...