Where is this series going?

[Scheckterfan54]

With one of the most exciting races on the schedule now gone, where is the series off to next. I hope we dont get another colorful parade, i mean road race. Could there be another texas date in the works? Maybe back to fontana(big L.A. market). One can only hope that a phoenix date is not in the works. I would like to hear your thoughts.

[jso1985]

I think road curses adds a good mix to the series, maybe they should avoid street races though

[blakebeatty]

Daytona?

[Komahawk]

I'd welcome another road course, however not at the expense of an oval. We need more road races, but we also need more ovals. Hands down folks, 17 races are far from enough.

[jimbo111]

My bet is a 50 -50 oval - road course.

The only super speedway left is Indy. The rest are what they call "Bull Rings"

What I would like to see is for them to bring the triple crown back to life. Instead they are going the opposite direction. Having the triple adds some excitement to the series.

0-0

[pvtjoker]

My bet is a 50 -50 oval - road course.

The only super speedway left is Indy. The rest are what they call "Bull Rings"

What I would like to see is for them to bring the triple crown back to life. Instead they are going the opposite direction. Having the triple adds some excitement to the series.

0-0

I'd hardly call Chicago, TX, Kentucky and Homestead 'bullrings'. I think we'll see Michigan back on the schedule someday (although not for 2008 and probably not 2009).

[turbo-engine]

Just a question: why is Nashville Superspeedway called a superspeedway? It's a 1.3 mile speedway.

[NoFender]

I think road curses adds a good mix to the series, maybe they should avoid street races though

Agreed! I also agree with the triple crown. 50/50 would be great.

[Jonesi]

Just a question: why is Nashville Superspeedway called a superspeedway? It's a 1.3 mile speedway.

1. It is larger than a mile (the old standard).
2. You build a racetrack you really can call it anything you want.

[Scheckterfan54]

I also enjoy the road races. The reason I would not like to see another road race on the schedule is for the simple fact that most fans that will just flip their tv to espn and find an Indycar race will not find road races interesting. I am currently employed in a bar in indy. For the first time all season, the entire bar(about 30 ppl...none of which were indycar fans before) were glued to the tvs for the entire race. I have watched every race this season exluding indy, and this is the first time I have had anyone watching it w/ me. This is the reason I am a little disappointed that michigan will not return. It seems to me that the old style close finishes have not been as common as they used to be. And the tracks that are notorious for those close finishes, are getting less races. NO MORE SHORTTRACKS...IE BULLRINGS!!!!

[mileman]

Well, I'd love for there to be a reason to drive up the highway to Elkhart again. Who knows? It could happen...

When was the last time OW raced at Pocono? Just curious...

[ChampUSfan]

Personnaly I would be more open for a schedule with 75% oval races and only 25% on road/street course. I love oval racing and I think the IndyCar is made to race on oval...for the ones who likes road racing, you have the Champ Car. I think the two series don't have to go in the same way.

I like both IRL and Champ Car, but oval racing in the most exciting one.

But you can be a fan of both...

The IndyCar schedule I would like to see for next year ( I know I am dreaming sometimes) :

HOMESTEAD MIAMI ***
ST PETE
MOTEGI
KANSAS SPEEDWAY
INDIANAPOLIS 500
FORT WORTH I***
IOWA SPEEDWAY
RICHMOND***
MID-OHIO
NASHVILLE SUPERSPEEDWAY***
CHICAGO MOTOR SPEEDWAY***
MICHIGAN SPEEDWAY
KENTUCKY SPEEDWAY***
SONOMA
LAGUNA SECA
HOUSTON***
DETROIT
FONTANA
BRISTOL
CHARLOTTE
LAS VEGAS
MILWAUKEE MILE
INDIANAPOLIS *** (OVAL)
FORT WORTH II

*** = night races

Any ideas to have a better one?

[Jonesi]

SONOMA
LAGUNA SECA

MILWAUKEE MILE
INDIANAPOLIS *** (OVAL)

FORT WORTH II

Any ideas to have a better one?

Sonoma & Laguna Seca are the same market, and not many are fans of IRL. If you drew 20,000 the 1st week you would only get 10,000 the 2nd week. Also Laguna is maxed out on spectator weekends with 5, something has to go away or share weekends (and it won't be Historics or MotoGP).
Even figuring 3 races every 4 weekends, you've got WI & IND races mid Oct!
Bruton Smith lost interest in a 2nd IRL race when he got his 2nd Cup date.

[Skid Marx]

Well, I'd love for there to be a reason to drive up the highway to Elkhart again. Who knows? It could happen...

When was the last time OW raced at Pocono? Just curious...

Umm, there's plenty of reason to drive up to Elkhart Lake...this weekend!
The Generac Power Weekend - The Generac 500 (ALMS) and the Generac Grand Prix (Champ Cars). Plus Formula BMW, Star Mazda, and Champ Car Atlantics - what more could you ask for?

[CCFanatic]

Umm, there's plenty of reason to drive up to Elkhart Lake...this weekend!
The Generac Power Weekend - The Generac 500 (ALMS) and the Generac Grand Prix (Champ Cars). Plus Formula BMW, Star Mazda, and Champ Car Atlantics - what more could you ask for?

Forgot Skip Barber National Series.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the series is going no where bad or good, just more of the same. Not enough teams, not enough cars, and some good venues, some weak ones, and some we are not sure about.

I dont' forsee any great changes in the IRL for the next couple years unless Tony decides to be radical, and I don't think he has had a radical thought since he started the IRL.

[mark123]

champcar will continue as long as the owners are happy to run it at a loss by propping it up. The IRL at least breaks even with INDY and the ESPN money, so they will win the battle of attrition. HOWEVER in the long term they both lose because they are sucking the life out of open wheel racing in the USA. If you combine the best parts of both series, you would have something that could be built up to match F1. For this to happen, you need 18 events including the below:

1. a Super Speedway - Indy
2. a few 1 1/2 mile ovals
3. a few of short ovals
4. a bunch of good road courses, (including the indy road course)
5. a bunch of good street circuits
6. a few good international events (Australia, Rockenham oval (UK), and the two European champcar road courses). forget SE Asia for now.
7. One race in New Zealand because that is where I live

Maybe run the IRL car on the ovals and the champcar on the road courses. Or maybe just the IRL car on them all as I wouldn't sit in one of those champcars on an oval.

[champcar72]

[quote="mileman"]Well, I'd love for there to be a reason to drive up the highway to Elkhart again. Who knows? It could happen...

Ummmm, Yea, Its only the best weakend of racing EVER at Road America!!! If your referring to the IRL cars being at R.A. forget it. Champcar would run circles around them. Just like they would at Mid Ohio........ Reality Bites!!

[-Helix-]

4. a bunch of good road courses, (including the indy road course)


Way to contradict yourself. :p

[Mark in Oshawa]

champcar will continue as long as the owners are happy to run it at a loss by propping it up. The IRL at least breaks even with INDY and the ESPN money, so they will win the battle of attrition. HOWEVER in the long term they both lose because they are sucking the life out of open wheel racing in the USA. If you combine the best parts of both series, you would have something that could be built up to match F1. For this to happen, you need 18 events including the below:

1. a Super Speedway - Indy
2. a few 1 1/2 mile ovals
3. a few of short ovals
4. a bunch of good road courses, (including the indy road course)
5. a bunch of good street circuits
6. a few good international events (Australia, Rockenham oval (UK), and the two European champcar road courses). forget SE Asia for now.
7. One race in New Zealand because that is where I live

Maybe run the IRL car on the ovals and the champcar on the road courses. Or maybe just the IRL car on them all as I wouldn't sit in one of those champcars on an oval.


First off, the only reason the Champ Car isn't as good on a cookie cutter oval such as Texas is because it is TOO FAST. It has more power than the IRL car and likely has more downforce. That issue can be addressed by knocking off the boost, and taking the wings back to almost nothing. If CART had done that years ago, they would have not looked like morons, but alas, that would require pretesting at a new track to figure that out.

I think the new Panoz would work but in any merger, the engine would be the bone of contention. The Cossie and Honda used in either series are not compatable in size, or power, but I suspect something could be worked out for the greater good. Novel thought that, greater good of OW racing....too bad more people in the brass of both series should figure that out...

[Easy Drifter]

Mark: Get a copy of Dr Steve Olvey's book, Rapid Response, to understand what happened with CART and Texas. There was a test there but the speeds did not come near what they turned race weekend.
Actually his book is fascinating and I would recommend it to anyone interested in racing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark: Get a copy of Dr Steve Olvey's book, Rapid Response, to understand what happened with CART and Texas. There was a test there but the speeds did not come near what they turned race weekend.
Actually his book is fascinating and I would recommend it to anyone interested in racing.

I might have to dig for a while....I don't remember seeing on the shelves of a book store.

I think what happened at Texas was remarkable, in that we finally saw the day when a race car dished out more than a driver could take. This was the first time in racing history where the cars were too fast for the drivers to handle. NHRA has been approaching that with their G loading, but nothing like the constant pressure on the blood system of g loading that Texas and the 240mph speeds Champ Car was turning.

Also ironic the only guy who wasn't complaining about dizziness and ill effects was the bull like Paul Tracy. Anyone who has met Paul would see why, he has little neck and is built rather solid compared to most drivers. A throwback to the AJ Foyt build......

[Easy Drifter]

It was G loadings in two dimensions at once to simplify it. Try 'Autophile' on Eglinton Ave. at Laird in TO. I bought my copy on sale at the Vintage Festival. If I remember I will bring in the name of the store that had it.

[geek49203]

I think what happened at Texas was remarkable, in that we finally saw the day when a race car dished out more than a driver could take. This was the first time in racing history where the cars were too fast for the drivers to handle. NHRA has been approaching that with their G loading, but nothing like the constant pressure on the blood system of g loading that Texas and the 240mph speeds Champ Car was turning.


There is no doubt that CART's inability to control speed on those big ovals was a real problem. I'm told that Paul Tracy did 256.9 down the straight at Michigan in 1996. At that speed, it's unsafe for drivers AND spectators alike (as was show in 1998), and the cars are moving so fast that the spectator only sees a blur of color.

Like it or not, when you've got one car, one tire and one motor for everyone, it's easy to control speeds, which is where both the CCWS and IRL are now.

Even at the comparatively slow IRL speeds at Michigan, there was still a lot of apprehension in the garage, especially among the former CART people who've seen things go horribly wrong at places like MIS.

[RGM Fan]

Honestly, I think something has to give in the next couple of years. At the beginning of the season I thought both series could go their seperate ways and be fine with that, as the season has progressed I get the feeling there is only going to be one series in the next three to four years, and Tony George isn't going to be running it.

The IRL is in trouble. A lot of hard core fans are unhappy with losing Michigan, and I understand why. After the 500 its the only IRL race I watch start to finish. I also hear that Texas is balking at the increase in their sanctioning fees. I hope that gets on the schedule for the IRL for next year, but it might not happen.

While ratings have been decent for a few events, Mid-Ohio and Milwaukee, they've been down for a number of races, including the 500. If the 500 ratings drop again next year they could be in real trouble when it comes to finding a partner or getting good terms from ESPN/ABC, who don't so much care now that they have NASCAR back. Honda also isn't thrilled about being the soul supplier, and Honda essentially funds Mid-Ohio and Motegi as well as helps all the top teams. Losing one would be a blow, losing both could really put the IRL in trouble.

I worry about the IRL becoming the second coming of CART. If no one noticed, CART failed, and honestly CC does road and street racing better. Unless the IRL can find its purpose and a solid plan for the future I think KK is going to have them over the barrell in a few seasons.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There is no doubt that CART's inability to control speed on those big ovals was a real problem. I'm told that Paul Tracy did 256.9 down the straight at Michigan in 1996. At that speed, it's unsafe for drivers AND spectators alike (as was show in 1998), and the cars are moving so fast that the spectator only sees a blur of color.

Like it or not, when you've got one car, one tire and one motor for everyone, it's easy to control speeds, which is where both the CCWS and IRL are now.

Even at the comparatively slow IRL speeds at Michigan, there was still a lot of apprehension in the garage, especially among the former CART people who've seen things go horribly wrong at places like MIS.

It is the reason some people spurn the idea of OW on high banked ovals over 1 mile, but I think different packages and rules are very acceptable if they force the drivers to drive the cars rather than run flat to the floor all the way around. The way it is now, only the flat ovals like Milwaukee and Phoenix force today's drivers to actually drive the track rather than run flat out.

[geek49203]

I worry about the IRL becoming the second coming of CART. If no one noticed, CART failed, and honestly CC does road and street racing better. Unless the IRL can find its purpose and a solid plan for the future I think KK is going to have them over the barrell in a few seasons.

CART did well until a few things happened --

1. They stopped going to Indy. No open wheel racing series survives as more than a club sport in the USA w/o some connection to Indy. The F1 guys came over to race Indy, not CART's other events. At the time, the Indy 500 was the undisputed king of all sporting events, and it could make a driver into a star (Danny Sullivan anyone?).

2. F1 got healthy. In the late 1970's all the way through the 1980's, F1 was a sick organization, with tons of problems. Certainly it was nowhere near as strong as it was in 2001, when CART filed for bankruptcy, or today. So, a F1 replacement series has a much stronger opponent.

3. All of CART's stars started to retire in the 1990's. I'm sorry, but my pics of the 2001 MIS race had these unknown guys that I didn't know then -- who is this "Tony Cannan" (Kanaan) guy???" Mario and Paul Tracy were the only drivers that many of the fans recognized at MIS in 2001, and Mario was obviously retired.

4. The cost of going overseas exceeded the excitement of sponsors. KMart saw no value of racing in Oz, or Europe. Ditto for most of the sponsors.

At that point, any mistake was too large for CART to overcome, and the series collapsed.

Therefore, the IRL has a few advantages -- First, they have the Indy 500. Even in its weakened state, it's still a star-maker. If a F1 world champion wants to run open wheel in the USA, they might try the IRL simply due to Indy. Second, the IRL has no intention of being a F1 replacement. They are happy. Third, many of those "no name" guys of 2001 are now stars -- at least the fans recognize the drivers again.

Both the CCWS have spec cars where they can control the costs and speeds, a major change from CART. CART got itself in a spot where they couldn't control costs or speeds with the engine wars. Both of those are necessary to have a series where the cost - sponsor balance works.

Where I think that CCWS is blowing it:

1. China. I have no clue why they're running China.

2. A spec car that cannot run Indy. While rumors of the car being too weak to run Indy are untrue (verified by a number of sources), certainly there has been no work on an "oval package" that would allow them to run Indy. If the CCWS drivers would run Indy, then the world press would see them.

3. The China and Indy holes in the schedule. When CCWS doesn't run for 3-4-5 weeks (month of May, etc) then the rumors of their demise abound. Any momentum in the press ("buzz") is gone. How many rumors of CCWS' death did you hear in May (Robin Miller?).

Where is the IRL blowing it?

They can't market their way out of a paper bag. Like NASCAR in 1970, they need a marketing export for a sponsor -- where is the IRL's Winston? It sure wasn't Pep Boys, and it wasn't Northern Lights....

[RGM Fan]

A lot of what you're saying is happening to the IRL as well. In the next five years Kannan and Castroneves will be pushing 40, Franchitti and Sharp will probably retire within two years, Sam Hornish will likely head to NASCAR while Marco wants to make it to F-1. Within five years most of the competitive field will likely retire or head to greener pastures. The IPS field is rather weak compared to the Atlantics, and if CC gets stronger the IRL is going to have a hard time finding drivers.

CC isn't doing everything right either, but I don't think you're right when it comes to the DP-01. The car was designed to run on ovals. They've done the computer simulations and its really as simple as designing a nose and wing package that would work. With the right notice the DP-01 could run at Indy next year, but it won't happen because the Cosworth is turbocharged, the car is close to two seconds a lap faster than the Dallara on road course and would likely be a half second to second faster than the IRL cars at Indy, so the Panzo is never going to see the inside of Indy while the IRL is around.

I don't see a lot of positives for either series right now, but CC seems to be gaining some momentum interally. They added a very solid two-car operation this year and will probably gain two or three more cars next year. We know they are in negotations for a title sponsor, engine badging and a few other deals that will bring more money to the series next year.

In a move that I think will strengthen both series I'm hearing the Euro trip originally planned for May might be shifted to the fall, allowing NHL, Team Aussie and maybe Mindardi and FCR to run Indy, which would just be phenominal for the IRL and CC. So back to the original post, while losing Michigan would be bad, replacing it with a much more competitive 500 would be better, since the IRL has always been a one race league.

[geek49203]

A lot of what you're saying is happening to the IRL as well. In the next five years Kannan and Castroneves will be pushing 40, Franchitti and Sharp will probably retire within two years, Sam Hornish will likely head to NASCAR while Marco wants to make it to F-1. Within five years most of the competitive field will likely retire or head to greener pastures. The IPS field is rather weak compared to the Atlantics, and if CC gets stronger the IRL is going to have a hard time finding drivers.

I'm sorry, but I don't see a whole field full of future stars. I see half of the rides as "rent a car" deals, where the driver of the week is the guy who has the money. Aside from Graham Rahal (whose daddy ran Indy), Paul Tracy (who ran Indy) and SB (who ran Indy) it takes a serious CCWS fan to identify the drivers w/o name tags (or names stitched on the belt).


CC isn't doing everything right either, but I don't think you're right when it comes to the DP-01. (snip)

The PLEASE tell me WHY there isn't an oval package for Indy? Damn, there is a month-long hole where the CCWS should be running Indy!!!

If the problem is simply that the DP-01 is faster, then that is fixed by bolting in the IRL's Honda engine. A faster car isn't a sign of superior engineering necessarily -- if the Cosworth is dialed up for more HP then they will be faster. The Honda people could dial in more too, simply with a new ROM flash. In fact, a Honda engineer told me that they WANT Cosworth to come back to Indy, 'cause it would give them competition!

Since virtually every IRL team is a former CART team, or at least full of CART people, I can assure you that they'd buy DP-01's en masse if they thought they could run Indy or the road courses faster. However, Panoz won't even send an engineer to Indy for the few teams that try to run their older chassis. The IRL is NOT a spec series -- if a DP-01 can pass tech, they can run.



In a move that I think will strengthen both series I'm hearing the Euro trip originally planned for May might be shifted to the fall, allowing NHL, Team Aussie and maybe Mindardi and FCR to run Indy, which would just be phenominal for the IRL and CC. So back to the original post, while losing Michigan would be bad, replacing it with a much more competitive 500 would be better, since the IRL has always been a one race league.

I've talked w/ IRL people, and they really want CCWS teams. They fully expect Graham Rahal to be at Indy next year, as well as NHLY (don't forget the Yates part now!) team. If, as you say, the DP-01 can be run at Indy, and if it is faster than the Dallara, then it would be great. I suspect that the problems will be that there ISN'T an Indy package for the PD-01, that the teams will be forced to run the Honda (not a huge problem -- the leases are quite reasonable), and that the teams don't have any idea how to set up either the Dallara or DP-01 for Indy.

[call_me_andrew]

When was the last time OW raced at Pocono? Just curious...

1989

I remember CART tried to race at Texas in 2001. The cars were so fast that they were pulling 6g's in the turns. This was giving the drivers greyouts.

[RGM Fan]

The PLEASE tell me WHY there isn't an oval package for Indy? Damn, there is a month-long hole where the CCWS should be running Indy!!!


There is not an oval package for a couple of reasons, ISC, Dover Entertainment and SMI politics, financially CC has bombed there and its a defensive mesure to keep their drivers from getting oval experience and heading to the IRL.


I've talked w/ IRL people, and they really want CCWS teams. They fully expect Graham Rahal to be at Indy next year, as well as NHLY (don't forget the Yates part now!) team. If, as you say, the DP-01 can be run at Indy, and if it is faster than the Dallara, then it would be great. I suspect that the problems will be that there ISN'T an Indy package for the PD-01, that the teams will be forced to run the Honda (not a huge problem -- the leases are quite reasonable), and that the teams don't have any idea how to set up either the Dallara or DP-01 for Indy.

Of course the IRL teams want the CCWS at Indy and other shows. Everyone knows that only three teams are capable of winning on any given sunday and if CC shows there would be 10 to 20 competitive cars at Indy next year instead of eight or 10.

One proposed schedule has a gap that would allow CC teams to run Indy, and if thats the case, NHL, TA, FRC and Mindardi and possibly PKV will probably show at Indy, but they won't have Panzos. The DP-01 has more speed, a bigger fuel cell and runs on Mentonal, so it gets much better fuel milage and by the end of the race even Kathrine Legg and Alex Figge would have lapped the IRL field four to five times. The Honda engine likely isn't compatable with DP-01. Honda doesn't currently have a Turbo charger for the Illmor and the Cosworth won't run without one. Since IRL rules controll engine size and eliminate boost there is no way the DP-01 could run at indy with anything less than its full package.

I'm not saying its a fantastic car, but its lighter, faster and has more range that the Dallara.

If the teams run Indy they will have to buy or lease Dallaras and engines, but a lot of CCWS teams have issues with leasing engines from Roger Penske, who both controls the engines, runs a team and wants CC dead. This is a pretty big sticking point as the CCWS teams don't want to show unless they can be assured of being competitive, ie beating Penske.

The reason Panzo won't send engineers to IRL teams is contractual. The DP-01 is exclusively contracted for CC, they can't reveal any of its technical secrets to other series. Now if TG wanted to pay CC for rights to the DP-01 the IRL could upgrade their chasis, untill hell freezes over thats not going to happen.

Honestly, I would be surprised if there is a block in the schedule that would allow the teams to run at Indy. CC doesn't want their teams owning IRL equipment for obvious reasons and after the last two races a lot of people on the CC side are a little spooked about the safety aspect. A few inches in the wrong direction at Michigan and we could have lost Dan and Dario, had Dario's car hit the wall driver side first... well that would be bad too. And Buro's back and Kenny Brack are high in everyones mind when they start talking about Indy.

[geek49203]

CC doesn't want their teams owning IRL equipment for obvious reasons and after the last two races a lot of people on the CC side are a little spooked about the safety aspect. A few inches in the wrong direction at Michigan and we could have lost Dan and Dario, had Dario's car hit the wall driver side first... well that would be bad too. And Buro's back and Kenny Brack are high in everyones mind when they start talking about Indy.

Strangely, the IRL's safety record this year has been better than CCWS, and in CCWS, to my knowledge, only Paul Tracy has been hurt. With the very notable exception of Paul Dana -- and no open-wheel car made would've saved him, and that kind of hit could've happened on many road courses -- the IRL has become a very safe series in the past 2 years. Crashes, yes, but as the video says, "Everyone walked away."

I know that the CART diehards hated ovals because of their safety factor. However, they were never scared enough to slow down from the insane (240, 250 mph?!?!) speeds that they were running. 218 is a lot more sane. In addition, if you look at YouTube videos, how many of those fatal crashes in CART were on road courses? I'm not saying that places like Michigan weren't dangerous, but I will remind CCWS people that road courses can be just as dangerous if the technology isn't right.

[indycool]

Regardless, the DP-01 ain't running Indy, IMO. There are two chassis legal to run Indy: the Dallara and the Panoz IRL car. There is one engine: Honda. Unless there's a change, which is extremely unlikely, that's it.

If the DP-01 is supposedly faster than a Dallara, how much of it is Cosworth turbocharged engine and how much is chassis, and why would that difference be applicable to an oval which a DP-01 has never run? And speeds have been controlled for YEARS, dating back to the '70s, by rules, so why should anyone care if a DP-01 is faster or not?

Safety: ALL racing is dangerous. ALL racing series continually strive to make it safer and always will. A road racer might think sprint cars are too dangerous. A sprint car driver might think motorcycle racing is too dangerous. A motorcycle racer might think drag-boat racing is too dangerous.

IMO, not that many CC teams would make Indy more competitive. Bourdais, when asked about a one-off at Indy this year, said something to the effect that they'd get their butts kicked because the IRL teams work with those cars the year-round and the CC guys don't. And now, about half the current drivers in the CC field have never run a big open-wheel car on an oval. Only Bourdais, Junqueira and Tracy are Indy veterans. And Bourdais is headed to F1.

The IRL, for its Dallaras, doesn't need the Panoz engineers' "secrets." The Panoz engineers built an IRL car that was competitive at one point but couldn't stay competitive with the Dallara, so, all the teams went to Dallaras. Panoz chassis are still legal and can be had for a song as smaller teams use 'em to try to make the field at Indy.

Link to Penske controlling the engines?

Why would CC people be concerned about Kenny Brack at Indy? He won it. He was later injured at Texas.

I beg to differ, but ethanol gets better fuel mileage than methanol. That's why they could make the fuel cell smaller. The cars don't need to carry as much to cover the same distance.

RGM, CART failed for several reasons, but mainly because it didn't handle the manufacturers properly and they jumped, teams jumped with them and they didn't run Indy. It really had little to do with schedule, although at the end it had to adjust its sanction fees for some races because they were losing money.

The IRL seems to HAVE a solid plan, contrary to your belief: An oval-heavy series with the Indianapolis 500 as its centerpiece. It seems to be expanding when all the pieces can be put together and saying, "no, thanks" when they can't.

Contrast that with CC, which hasn't fulfilled its announced schedule any year since its inception and doesn't even seem to have any kind of schedule slapped together to announce before January or so, when they decide, "well, just to make sure we have enough races, we'll hafta go back to Portland and lose money again."

[geek49203]

So here we are...

The CCWS can't go to Indy and expect success w/o a sizable IRL effort -- buying different cars, running "Honda" motors, and testing and running them to gain experience. WE all agree on that one.

We also agree that both CCWS and Indy/IRL would benefit by those teams running Indy, and various IRL events.

We agree that, to quote the age-old military axiom, one must not "divide in the face of the enemy", and the Split was definitely division at the very time NASCAR was taking off.

We also agree that CCWS is married to DP01 for 2008 and 2009. Probably the IRL will be looking at a new chassis for 2009, if for no other reason than the FIA is mandating some changes -- cockpit entrance of 21" to facilitate removal of the driver still in the seat, for instance. So, there MIGHT be a time in 2009 - 2010 when the chassis issue would be moot, but can Indy racing sustain 2 more seasons like this one? Aside from the CCWS diehards, few in auto racing expect CCWS to be around that long at the current rate!

The Cosworth / Honda issue would be addressed by simply dialing down the turbo on the Cosworth, and dialing up the Honda. However, I can assure you that oval track owners, sponsors, team owners and drivers have no interest in returning to CART speeds, which means that the HP won't be much more than 500 HP if that.

The one thing that cannot be easily addressed are the old wounds. I've heard the stories of the nasty threats -- some in writing -- that flew around in 2001. Those former CART peoplw who are now in CCWS are like the Confederate who won't forgive the "damned Yankees", and certainly still have some issues w/ TG. Perhaps it will take more time, until everyone who was involved in the 1996 split are gone, to finally heal this split. I once remember a story of a people who were forced to wander 40 years in the wilderness until the generation of former slaves and doubters was dead too....

[champcar72]

Champ car went their own way with road courses and street races so in my opinion, Indy no longer fits in to thier game plan. Although nothing in the world would please me more than to see a Champ Car driver drink the milk at Indy! That would probably push Tony George right over the edge. Of course the champ car drivers Car would fail post- race inspection and the win would be handed to an IRL driver But hey thats game they play........

[RGM Fan]

Link to Penske controlling the engines?

It's called common knowledge.

http://www.ilmor.co.uk/profile.php


We also agree that both CCWS and Indy/IRL would benefit by those teams running Indy, and various IRL events.


Actually I don't. The IRL doesn't keep the fans who tune in for the 500. There is no reason to think that CC would gain any appreciable boost in viewership if they ran the 500. Last year's feild was one of the weaker ones since the founding of the IRL, as only eight, possibly 10, cars had any chance of a win. The IRL is looking for a TV partner and the ratings of the 500 is really the only thing it has to sell. If CC showing up gets the IRL a better contract than it helps the IRL and not so much CC

[geek49203]

Champ car went their own way with road courses and street races so in my opinion, Indy no longer fits in to thier game plan.


So, if my assertion is correct -- that no open-wheel racing exists in the USA as more than a club sport if they don't have an Indy connection -- the CCWS is doomed to remain at their current size, if at all?

It took NASCAR 50 years to "suddenly overnight" become a juggernaut, and CART started out with the Indy 500 and the USAC stars. F1 is now a quantum leap stronger than 1978 - 1990, so becoming a competitor to F1 isn't a real option. What does CCWS have?

[indycool]

Common knowledge, RGM? Gimme a break. Those engines are doled out randomly now by the IRL and Honda. Your link is from years BEFORE Honda was the lone engine in the IRL.

And, fine, if the CC guys don't run Indy, they don't. And TG certainly isn't going to even consider a deal like KK proposed. But WITHOUT Indy, what are CC's ratings and what does IT have to sell?

[geek49203]

Common knowledge, RGM? Gimme a break. Those engines are doled out randomly now by the IRL and Honda. Your link is from years BEFORE Honda was the lone engine in the IRL.

Ilmore does indeed build the motors for Honda, just like Cosworth built motors for Ford and Chevrolet. Most of those motors run 2-3 races, including the motors for the Indy 500. So, if the "fix is in" when they pass out motors, you'd see it for 2-3 races. The ECU programming is done by Honda, and one might argue that this is where the "fix" happens. However, every team has live telemetry in their pit box, and everyone (including this guy) can see it, take pictures of it, etc. While not perfect, it certainly is on par with a series that, say, distributes pop-off valves etc.

The sad thing is that the CCWS thinks that because they run 800 hp that this gives them some "right", some "obligation" on the part of fans, to be somehow "superior." Right or wrong, the average race fan couldn't care less if the motors produce 800 hp -- given a choice, most will choose the loudest motor, or the one making the strangest noise, as the one they like the best.

Worse yet, the CCWS people know full well that 800 hp in those cars isn't a viable option for ovals, that the speeds produced are a hazard to drivers as well as fans, and doesn't even make for a better show! Worse yet, no insurance company in the world will insure an event where the speeds put the fans at risk -- why do you think that NASCAR slowed down their cars?

There are a few people in the world -- mostly in F1 and CCWS fan clubs -- that insist in having a "pure" form of racing, where only the latest technology is used, the highest horsepower is required, and the drivers are all somehow the best in all motorsports. Those people have some idealized fantasy about "pure" racing. Those fans are such a small segment of the population that they do not... CAN NOT... support much more than one series world-wide. Sadly, even F1 isn't about the technology and skill for many fans, but rather the fascination with the money, glitz and glitter.

Auto racing has been about "entertainment" since the 1970's. Most series have frozen their technology at some point in time -- Sprints and Midgets in the 1970's, IRL in the 1990's, etc. Even F1 works to limit technology, otherwise someone would've entered a vehicle w/ no tires, or a jet engine, etc. They place the emphasis is on entertainment, with a show that costs less to produce than is generated by revenue. Most of the revenue comes from sponsors, and that sponsor link is dictated by TV coverage. Therefore, if you can't tell the difference between the Dallara and the DP01 on TV, it really doesn't matter, does it?

Those are the hard fact that dictate this sport. If you wanna talk about "reunification" and "where is this series going" and the viability of the IRL and CCWS, those are the facts that must be understood.

[geek49203]

Of course the IRL teams want the CCWS at Indy and other shows. Everyone knows that only three teams are capable of winning on any given sunday and if CC shows there would be 10 to 20 competitive cars at Indy next year instead of eight or 10.

Uh, those "three teams" represent 8 cars. If, as you assert, there would suddenly be 10 to 20, that's an improvement, but your comparison between "3" teams and "20" cars is misleading.

Quite frankly, I don't see how a CCWS team can jump into a new car, new engine, running on a style of track that they're not used to, and compete w/ the top IRL teams. CCWS team that wish to be more than field fillers will have to run at least part the IRL schedule.


I'm not saying its a fantastic car, but its lighter, faster and has more range that the Dallara.
(snip)
The reason Panzo won't send engineers to IRL teams is contractual. The DP-01 is exclusively contracted for CC, they can't reveal any of its technical secrets to other series. Now if TG wanted to pay CC for rights to the DP-01 the IRL could upgrade their chasis, untill hell freezes over thats not going to happen.

The Dallara was intentionally made heavier, slower, etc. The IRL looked at the DP01, and turned it down in favor of the Dallara.

The Honda motor was intentionally given less horsepower, especially after Tony Renna died at Indy (damned lucky that there weren't fans that day!).

If the IRL people wanted to, they could have Dallara (or Panoz, etc) develop a chassis that is much quicker, and much lighter. They could have Honda (Ilmore) build a motor that makes 1000 hp. The route to 300 mph at Indy isn't that difficult -- all it takes is lots money, and lots of dead bodies. Like every other racing series, including F1, they've made a decision about cost versus technology, and chosen to freeze their technology at this point.

To become a broken record here -- auto racing isn't about technology, or top speed, or even talent. It's all about entertainment. The immutable law of motorsports is that the cost of producing the race must be less or equal to the amount sponsors are willing to pay for their ads to be seen, otherwise the series dies quickly. The quicker you swallow that bit of information, and do the mourning that comes with the death of your ideas of a perfect race series, the quicker the world will make sense to you.

[indycool]

I agree that Ilmor builds 'em, geek, but the rest of your statement explains away any supposed advantage much as I indicated.

And the rest of your two posts are extraordinary. They were hitting in the 230s on the backstretch at Indy in the early '70s (think it was Jim Malloy who was clocked back there at 231 one year). Aerodynamics and smaller engines have increased AVERAGE speeds since, but that's 35 years-plus of trying to limit speeds and costs rather than let both run loose.

[geek49203]

And the rest of your two posts are extraordinary. They were hitting in the 230s on the backstretch at Indy in the early '70s (think it was Jim Malloy who was clocked back there at 231 one year). Aerodynamics and smaller engines have increased AVERAGE speeds since, but that's 35 years-plus of trying to limit speeds and costs rather than let both run loose.

Thanks for restating eloquently what I've been saying... that pure technology, high speeds, bravery, etc are no longer the stuff of auto racing.

Paul Tracy supposedly hit 256.9 at MIS in 1998, and I'm thinking that 250+ at places like Indy and MIS as average speeds aren't that technologically difficult to do.

That's the part that many auto racing fans don't understand -- since the time of Jim Malloy et al, the emphasis has gone from pure speed, to finding ways to limit top speed, to limiting average speed, to limiting average speed as cheaply as possible.

[fan-veteran]

In 1997 at Fontana the average speed on pole was 387 km/h and the whole lap was taken flat-out, as i remember from telemetry the speed reached 390 km/h at the entering of corner 3. The Handford device was not introduced yet and the power supposedly was about 850 bhp.

At Indy in 1995 a have a bumpday footage with a telemetry and the max speed was about 235 mph at the end of the main straight and typical speed at the apex of corners around 225 mph, the exclusion was first corner with over 230.

Later, in 2000, Gil de Ferran did 388 km/h average at Fontana, but with the Handford device and power around 950 bhp (or more?). But the draft effect behind another car may boost the top speed vastly.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Quite frankly, I don't see how a CCWS team can jump into a new car, new engine, running on a style of track that they're not used to, and compete w/ the top IRL teams. CCWS team that wish to be more than field fillers will have to run at least part the IRL schedule..


It is the whole reason that the CART teams ran away in a sense in 1996. It isn't that they didn't want to be at Indy, but the rules and way the game has to be played to compete there dictate something they cannot afford to do. In 1996, they had to compete for 8 spots while teams that couldn't cut it in CART up that time got the other 25 spots. Blackmail, pure and simple. Now it is a different era, the IRL is much better run and the better teams in the IRL match the best of any in the CCWS, but now the rules are stacked again against the outsiders. For NHLY to show up with Dallaras they take out of moth balls, put their guys in and hope to be competitive, they would have to test or even race a lot more in the IRL, and the budget wont allow it. They don't want to be in the IRL or they would have been there. They have no interest in the rest of the IRL sched, but they have an interest in Indy. They cant compete without going to the IRL and spending a lot of dough, so it isn't worth their time. THe IRL loses, IMS and the Indy 500 are poorer for it and race fans are poorer for it.



To become a broken record here -- auto racing isn't about technology, or top speed, or even talent. It's all about entertainment. The immutable law of motorsports is that the cost of producing the race must be less or equal to the amount sponsors are willing to pay for their ads to be seen, otherwise the series dies quickly. The quicker you swallow that bit of information, and do the mourning that comes with the death of your ideas of a perfect race series, the quicker the world will make sense to you.

The problem many seem so to have Geek is some of us are car guys. We like cars, we like the variety of chassis that used to exist and we liked the fact that some cars stood out from the pack. I remember JR running that Pennozoil Chapparral around Indy like a Yellow comet as he kicked the bejeezus out of the whole field in the early 80's. That wasn't close racing, it may not have been to everyone's cup of tea, but it is sometimes good to see excellence on display. With the spec racing formula of the CCWS and IRL, you often see good races, but to an extent, it can be bland as well. The cars have to matter.......and right now, the Dallara in my mind as a fan doesn't. The rules the IRL has laid out have created these strange looking cars that really are not visually appealling to the eye...and I think that alone kind of turns off some fans.

WE need good racing, we need entertainment, but most of all we need legitmacy. Neither the IRL nor CCWS can claim a truly legitmate champion. Despite the best efforts of KK and TG to run two separate series and ignore each other, no one is fooled still. It is still a nation at war against itself......

[xtlm]

The rules the IRL has laid out have created these strange looking cars that really are not visually appealling to the eye...and I think that alone kind of turns off some fans.


Just a question....am i the only one who thinks the Dallara looks cool?

[call_me_andrew]

Yes, yes you are.

[geek49203]

Just a question....am i the only one who thinks the Dallara looks cool?

On TV, all open-wheel cars look the same to 99.9% of the population.

Trained eyes can see the difference, but how many people are trained? Quite frankly, if you took silhouette shots of the current F1 field, how many of us here would pass a quiz on which car is which?

In the end, the type of open wheel car isn't the answer to any questions, unless someone wants to bring back the Lotus 38 or Watson Roadsters (which would be my vote!).

Lastly, the Dallara was designed with a lot of non-performance issues in mind. In stream-of-consciousness order:

1. Safety

2. Make it big enough that 95 percentile drivers can get in and out of it ("AJ Foyt's Butt specs").

3. Make it durable

4 Make it reasonably priced

5. Make it so the cars can be quickly changed to promote a good show, er, close competition

6. Make the surface areas big enough to make sponsors happy.


Remember, the IRL looked at the DP01, and rejected it.

[indycool]

geek, you just said something I've said for a long time. 99.9 percent of the population can look at a DP-01, a Dallara, a 1986 March, a 1996 Lola, a Star Mazda or an Atlantic and say, "oh, that's one of those rear-engined cars." 99.9 percent of the population doesn't even know the word "formula," or all the things it can mean. The only way maybe half of them can tell the difference is in SIZE on TV.

Us hardcores on the forums might have a finer look and decide whether we think something is "ugly" or not. As a matter of fact, I don't even think about those judgments, and I think West Coast supermodifieds are the PRETTIEST race cars around.

So, what does a hardcore's opinion mean about pretty or ugly to 99.9 percent of the people, the group BOTH series are trying to excite into watching on site and on TV? Absolutely nothing.

[geek49203]

geek, you just said something I've said for a long time. (snip) So, what does a hardcore's opinion mean about pretty or ugly to 99.9 percent of the people, the group BOTH series are trying to excite into watching on site and on TV? Absolutely nothing.

While I'm on a roll --

How many people can listen to a series of recordings of open-wheel motors, and tell them apart?

Okay, the current F1 19,000 rpm monsters are different (and sweet!). However, I roll my eyes when CART/CCWS diehards complain about the Ilmore/Honda used in the IRL due to the sound it makes.

99% of the population would vote for the one that sends the most shock waves through their chests (and we all know that feeling!) as their favorite. Perhaps this is why the NHRA, running cars that are all basically identical (within the class), on 1970's technology, still draw a nice crowd? Maybe this is why NASCAR's attendance is dropping, since the current cars are not nearly as loud as they used to be, and are running in a lot higher rev range?

I still vote for a variation of a Watson roadster, using V8 motor running under 8000 rpms. Yes, I know that's the basic description of the new Silver Crown cars. Yes, I know that USAC has botched it badly. However, while TG was making changes, I was secretly hoping....

[indycool]

I live several miles from O'Reilly (formerly Indianapolis) Raceway Park and come Labor Day weekend, I won't have a problem hearin' the NHRA guys. And when you're on site and they talk about "ground shakers," they MEAN it.

[Alexamateo]

I still vote for a variation of a Watson roadster, using V8 motor running under 8000 rpms. Yes, I know that's the basic description of the new Silver Crown cars. Yes, I know that USAC has botched it badly. However, while TG was making changes, I was secretly hoping....

I wonder, could a car like the Panoz roadster be adapted to an open-wheeled Indy type car?

Looking back, USAC made a mistake banning the rear-engine sprint. It broke the ladder for the majority of American drivers. I like all racing, but I found myself drifting more towards following NASCAR pre-split, because I didn't like the direction AOW was going. I didn't think guys like my hometown hero Sammy Swindell really got a chance to develop. If he was coming along today, he would just be pointing towards Nascar. (As he is pointing his 18 year old son Kevin now.)

When the split happened, I understood some of the sentiments, and thought it good that American short trackers would get a shot. In retrospect, that has not happened, and it's probably related to the front/rear engine dynamic.

I don't know if changing to a front engine formula could help develop American stars or not, and of course NASCAR is so strong now it's attracting the RE Formula car drivers. Montoya's already there, this silly season has Hornish to Nascar, Wheldon to Nascar, Speed to Nascar, and Franchitti to Nascar.

Losing guys like Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart to Nascar really hurt AOW, considering Indy would have been their first choice. Is it the only answer? probably not, but it might be worth it to try.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Alex, what you are suggesting was promoted by Brock Yates in one of his Car and Driver Columns a few years back. The whole point of the IRL was to have this unique American cultural event, the Indy 500 be linked to USAC guys and give them a place to race beyond Silver Crown. Tony at the time made a lot of noise about how CART had brought in all this foreign talent and shoved good American guys out of rides. It was crap then, and it is crap now. The reason they are not in the Indy 500 for the most part is because the cars are different and the learning curve of showing up in May and figuring out to go fast at Indy just is too steep.

Your Idea, and what I thought as well would have been really something. It would have said Indy is about a unique form of racing, that is almost 100% American, and it has ties to the great history of the track. Would it be as fast as todays rockets? No....but the IRL Dallara of today (still one of the uglier OW race cars going) isn't as fast as the CART guys were turning in the early 90's.

A modern reincarnation of a front engined race car (like the Panoz front engined prototype) with some aero, would be a unique spectacle, and I can guarntee you more interest and respect from many in the racing world if that was the direction IMS took with the IRL. Instead, they took old CART chassis, put in guys who couldn't get CART rides and wasted the first 5 or 6 years devaluing their product. Now that they have a better product, there is so much acrimony about how this all happened, that no one can get past it. What is more, they have a better product now then they did 10 years ago, but it still isn't what it once was 15 years ago, and no one with any real memory of that era can quite forget it.

No, it would have been a unique thing for the IRL to have started in 1996 with a Front Engined roadster for a new generation. Jeff Gordon would have been comfortable in such a car. Tony Stewart we know would have. Maybe the Kinser Family wouldn't be in Outlaws today if such a ride were available. Kasey Kahne, Ryan Newman, Clint Bowyer.......good lord all of these guys would have looked at the IRL as an alternative....

[jarrambide]

geek, you just said something I've said for a long time. 99.9 percent of the population can look at a DP-01, a Dallara, a 1986 March, a 1996 Lola, a Star Mazda or an Atlantic and say, "oh, that's one of those rear-engined cars." 99.9 percent of the population doesn't even know the word "formula," or all the things it can mean. The only way maybe half of them can tell the difference is in SIZE on TV.

Us hardcores on the forums might have a finer look and decide whether we think something is "ugly" or not. As a matter of fact, I don't even think about those judgments, and I think West Coast supermodifieds are the PRETTIEST race cars around.

So, what does a hardcore's opinion mean about pretty or ugly to 99.9 percent of the people, the group BOTH series are trying to excite into watching on site and on TV? Absolutely nothing.
99.9 of people in the U.S., remember that outside the U.S. Open Wheel Racing is very big (it is huge) and even though many fans are not hardcore fans and can´t recite the last 30 champions of every series out there they can at least differentiate between cars of different series.

[call_me_andrew]

Would it be as fast as todays rockets? No....but the IRL Dallara of today (still one of the uglier OW race cars going) isn't as fast as the CART guys were turning in the early 90's.

A modern reincarnation of a front engined race car (like the Panoz front engined prototype) with some aero, would be a unique spectacle, and I can guarntee you more interest and respect from many in the racing world if that was the direction IMS took with the IRL. Instead, they took old CART chassis, put in guys who couldn't get CART rides and wasted the first 5 or 6 years devaluing their product. Now that they have a better product, there is so much acrimony about how this all happened, that no one can get past it. What is more, they have a better product now then they did 10 years ago, but it still isn't what it once was 15 years ago, and no one with any real memory of that era can quite forget it.

Well I don't think they want the Dallara to be as fast as the old CART cars. I don't think those speeds would be considered resonably safe.

How could they get a new series together and a new car? You can't just get that many new cars ready for a season that's only 3 races long. The CART equiptment was a necessary evil for the first year. After that, it was gone.

I wouldn't say that the product has improved. There's been a real decline in the quality of ICS racing this year. While as CC has had an improvement in quality.

I'm all for front engine Indy Roadsters if we don't get a merger. Otherwise, a round of DP01's for everyone (until more manufacturers want to get involved).


99.9 of people in the U.S., remember that outside the U.S. Open Wheel Racing is very big (it is huge)

I strongly doubt that. To most Americans, racing and NASCAR are the same word.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well I don't think they want the Dallara to be as fast as the old CART cars. I don't think those speeds would be considered resonably safe.

How could they get a new series together and a new car? You can't just get that many new cars ready for a season that's only 3 races long. The CART equiptment was a necessary evil for the first year. After that, it was gone.

I wouldn't say that the product has improved. There's been a real decline in the quality of ICS racing this year. While as CC has had an improvement in quality.

I'm all for front engine Indy Roadsters if we don't get a merger. Otherwise, a round of DP01's for everyone (until more manufacturers want to get involved).



I strongly doubt that. To most Americans, racing and NASCAR are the same word.


umm they ran Lolas at the Speedway and in the IRL for about the next 3 years until the G-Forces and Dallara's came along if I am not mistaken.

If you are going to make a clean break, make it. By racing used CART machinery with their back marker teams and start up from dirt outfits, they made the IRL in its first 3 years into a shadow of what is should have always been. The Speedway and the tradition of the 500 dictated a better formula and spectacle than it GOT those years.

[indycool]

It was only one year Mark. Dallara, G Force, Aurora and Infiniti came in for the '97 season.

[geek49203]

umm they ran Lolas at the Speedway and in the IRL for about the next 3 years until the G-Forces and Dallara's came along if I am not mistaken.

If you are going to make a clean break, make it. By racing used CART machinery with their back marker teams and start up from dirt outfits, they made the IRL in its first 3 years into a shadow of what is should have always been. The Speedway and the tradition of the 500 dictated a better formula and spectacle than it GOT those years.

I was listening to IRL people remember their first race in Florida -- the mouse oval in Orlando as I recall? They had cast-off stuff, non-name drivers, teams using open car haulers, etc. Meanwhile, CART was having its first race -- all the big names, all the big teams, etc -- Miami as I recall, only a few miles away. They all thought that CART would kill the IRL.

Less than 6 years later, TG was making a bid for CART in bankruptcy court...

[Mark in Oshawa]

IC, I stand corrected. I do know that CART had all the cards, and tossed them away, thinking Tony would cave in....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh correction again, they had all the cards save the Ace, which of course is the Speedway and the 500. That said, this whole mess is something that has been a festering wound for a while and it has done no one any good....

[call_me_andrew]

http://f1rejects.com/drivers/guerrero/bio/irl-indianapolis-97.jpg

I must be wrong. CART always did have those airboxes.

[indycool]

As Dave Marcis once said, "(He) couldn't keep the smoke in the engine."

[Mark in Oshawa]

Andrew, all engines need air.....just some need more than others...and of course, ya gotta keep the smoke in the engine. That Marcis is a sage I tell you....

[call_me_andrew]

I know all engines need air. But if that were CART equipment, there'd be a turbo in place of that air box and an anhedral front wing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Andrew, that is a CART car. The droopy wings didn't appear til the late 90's, that Pennzoil car in the pic I would wager is from the late 80's, maybe early 90's. They had air boxes of a sort too, even with the turbo.

[Alexamateo]

http://f1rejects.com/drivers/guerrero/bio/irl-indianapolis-97.jpg

I must be wrong. CART always did have those airboxes.



Andrew, that is a CART car. The droopy wings didn't appear til the late 90's, that Pennzoil car in the pic I would wager is from the late 80's, maybe early 90's. They had air boxes of a sort too, even with the turbo.


Mark,

As a Name that car veteran, I believe this is Roberto Guerrero #21 in a 1997 Dallara-Infiniti @ Indy in the Pagan Racing entry.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark,

As a Name that car veteran, I believe this is Roberto Guerrero #21 in a 1997 Dallara-Infiniti @ Indy in the Pagan Racing entry.

oops....i saw that bodywork and thought it looked more late 80's.... I am telling you I cannot get my car ID skills down the way I should. I associate todays Dallara with what the IRL had then and forget that they are on their second edition. My mistake, and you know why now I don't do the "Name that race car" thread no more.

[Alexamateo]

oops....i saw that bodywork and thought it looked more late 80's.... I am telling you I cannot get my car ID skills down the way I should. I associate todays Dallara with what the IRL had then and forget that they are on their second edition. My mistake, and you know why now I don't do the "Name that race car" thread no more.

I like that generation car better. Here's the design inspiration for the current Dallara ;) :eek: :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Alex, the current Dallara isn't that good....

The Current Dallara looks a race car that was designed by a committee...and I suspect they were all ad salesmen who were drinking at the time.....

[Bob Riebe]

IC, I stand corrected. I do know that CART had all the cards, and tossed them away, thinking Tony would cave in....

Mes thnks theys were Taro Cards maan, not only did the US 500 look like a quarter mile figure-8 race, but at Indy things went so well that Cheever could turn race-lap after race lap at over 230 mph, not to win, but because he had nothing else to do.

Mes thinks the stars were aligned.

What wee haves nows is the years 2000 voodoo theys alls thoughts was nots true.
Whaaahahaha.
Bob

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mes thnks theys were Taro Cards maan, not only did the US 500 look like a quarter mile figure-8 race, but at Indy things went so well that Cheever could turn race-lap after race lap at over 230 mph, not to win, but because he had nothing else to do.

Mes thinks the stars were aligned.

What wee haves nows is the years 2000 voodoo theys alls thoughts was nots true.
Whaaahahaha.
Bob

Bob...quit smoking dope will ya, you are starting to babble...never a good thing.

The US 500 was not a bad race once the idiots who messed up on the first race were cleaned out of the way. Hey, some races are dogs, some are good. CART just happened to have a brain cramp that day. If I remember correctly though, that year's 500 was won by Buddy Lazier, a guy who made a career of riding around in the back of CART fields...hardly a great name in racing. The talent was NOT with the IRL in the first few years....

[16&Gtown]

amen brother
I also enjoy the road races. The reason I would not like to see another road race on the schedule is for the simple fact that most fans that will just flip their tv to espn and find an Indycar race will not find road races interesting. I am currently employed in a bar in indy. For the first time all season, the entire bar(about 30 ppl...none of which were indycar fans before) were glued to the tvs for the entire race. I have watched every race this season exluding indy, and this is the first time I have had anyone watching it w/ me. This is the reason I am a little disappointed that michigan will not return. It seems to me that the old style close finishes have not been as common as they used to be. And the tracks that are notorious for those close finishes, are getting less races. NO MORE SHORTTRACKS...IE BULLRINGS!!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

People who don't get road racing are usually those who also really don't get racing. The concept of turning right and left shouldn't be so hard...but as Schketerfan's posts points out, the great unwashed likes IRL pack racing. Too bad the drivers really don't....

[indycool]

Mark, I think people "get" road racing. But for people who started out by watching the whole race track at one of the 800 local short tracks in the U.S. (or the supermods at Delaware Speedway near London, Ont.) and seeing midgets and sprinters and yes, stock cars, run close together and work to pass each other because it's a much smaller "theater", they may find it less exciting from an entertainment standpoint.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IC...yup, but a lot of them dismiss it without really making the effort to understand it. Talk to most of your stock car fan friends and you will find the two NASCAR events they dont' get are the two at WGI and Sonoma, and yet both provide more drama and uncertainty than most ovals.....

Road racing is exciting, just different than the excitement you get on Ovals. Very few of us enjoy both forms equally.....

[indycool]

I think maybe we all dismiss SOMETHING before we understand it and to each his/her own. I like dirt-track motorcycle racing when it becomes pretty available to me in person or on TV but I don't follow it. I like drag racing because of the awesome power of those beasts but I haven't been to one in years. And, no, I just haven't warmed up to soccer at all, despite dating a couple soccer mom types. Saw an Australian-rules football game once in Miami and thought it was cool, but I'm not exposed to it further. Enjoyed one trip to the Calgary Stampede and watching chuckwagons race on a dirt half, one of the wildest shows you'll ever see. But I can't go to Calgary every year.

[Chris R]

I am jumping in on the tail end of this thread - so pardon me if I am repeating someone....

I like a mix of tracks - the ideal series, to me, would have a 11 road/street courses and 9 ovals. The arguements for both types of tracks are compelling and there are good reasons why certian fans favor one over the other...

My biggest issue with any track has to do with hte individual track... A snoozer of a track makes fo a boring race no matter if it is an oval or road course.... Problem with ovals these days is that too many are these boring "cookie cutter" 1 1/2/ NASCAR tracks. I always found the Michigan races very exciting, it is hard to argue that Texas put on a great show and Indy is just special....

Street courses suffer much the same issue - too many are just not that great - jsut because Long Beach, Toronto, and Cleveland provide a good combination of atmosphere and racing does not mean that every city you ca get to hold a race will be able to do the same...

Last but not least are road courses - some of the "classics" are awesome - but some are just not suited for a modern indycar.

I am involved in a branded plant marketing program and I ahve found the biggest issue is not the "program" as much as it is making sure every component of the program is top notch - a clunker of a plant detracts from all ofthe great ones inthe program.... Same goes for race tracks - no matter how good the market etc. - if you cannot put on a great race it needs to be dropped - 14 awesome races are better than the same 14 plus 6 mediocre ones (no matter if the race is an oval, street or road course)....

[TU Homer]

I agree, Chris R. I like the mix too.

But IRL fans must be insulted by Brian Barnhart's latest comments about IRL schedule next year, since IRL was formed not to provide a diverse schedule, but to preserve the American tradition of oval racing, to preserve the greatness of the Indy 500, and to provide a path to Indy for the local dirt trackers. These founding principles should be a reminder to the current leadership of IRL; why it was created and what specifically defines IRL.
“We look ahead to the 2008 season knowing that the IndyCar Series offers the most diverse schedule in all of motorsports,” said Brian Barnhart


-TU

[Mark in Oshawa]

Homer, that was then, this is the new IRL. This movement to a more CART like look has been the only thing saving the IRL in my eyes. This year to me, they turned a corner of legitmacy. Of course, they still are about 4 teams short and about 6 cars short of what they really should have, but at least they are farther from that original format (which I knew wouldn't work) than they were. We all know why TG did what he did, and we can argue with how well it did or didn't work, and while I hate seeing the guy rewarded for his role in the break up of OW racing in North America, his series now is the better run of the two. I wouldn't have said that up until the last few years, but this year, it is obvious. I may not like it, but that too is the reality...

[TU Homer]

Homer, that was then, this is the new IRL. This movement to a more CART like look has been the only thing saving the IRL in my eyes. This year to me, they turned a corner of legitmacy. Of course, they still are about 4 teams short and about 6 cars short of what they really should have, but at least they are farther from that original format (which I knew wouldn't work) than they were. We all know why TG did what he did, and we can argue with how well it did or didn't work, and while I hate seeing the guy rewarded for his role in the break up of OW racing in North America, his series now is the better run of the two. I wouldn't have said that up until the last few years, but this year, it is obvious. I may not like it, but that too is the reality...


The reality is I don't watch IRL. More people don't watch it than every before. More people don't watch open wheel racing than every before. The reality is, the racing was excellent and car counts were healthy when TG had his breakdown. The reality is, the very things that TG responded AGAINST in CART as the pillars of Tony's vision are now the pillars FOR his sanction. I don't have to accept it, though you would like me to.

What I don't understand, is why IRL faithful are not outraged. Another reality is the ratio of ovals has dropped dramatically since Penske/Andretti/Ganassi moved to IRL, and the IRL 500 is watched by fewer people than every before, and has fewer entrants than every before. Where is the outrage?

I hear the Jan Shaeffer's of the world, and if they were to post in this thread, no doubt they would come up with some lame excuse for Tony to morph his tantrum into CART. I ain't saying Jan Shaeffer does post in this thread or board, but if he WERE... But as you can tell, I'm still pissed. Many of the IRL faithful are pinning their hopes on the recent peak of NASCAR popularity. Good luck.


-TU