Maddie McCann

[Hazell B]

It's been over three months yet still the search continues for this little girl.

Does anyone know why they decided to search again at the suspect Murratt's (sp?) house again?

To be honest I'm on a bit of guilt trip as I recently started to shut my ears to the stories about her after two things I learned. The first was that her parents have launched a five or six point plan to aid other parents in keeping their children safe on holiday. I'd say they're about the least qualified to do that ... unless not leaving the children alone is point one, two, three and so on :rolleyes:

The second is unrelated and yet related at the same time. I know this sort of thing is going to happen and nobody is to blame really, but it's annoyed me a bit. A friend's son and his wife finally saved enough to go on holiday to a nice part of Spain with their two children. The daughter is seven years old, the son younger. They were visted by the police twice in the ten days they were away because people thought their daughter may have been the missing girl. The second time the poor kid was upset as the officer had no English and everyone got a bit frustrated trying to sort it out, raising voices and so on. The child is seven, not four like Maddie, but does look like her a little. She's shy too, so I doubt she'll have to will to travel any time soon after having her eyes looked in to by large, uniformed men :mark:
Still, it's good they are still checking I guess.

[Drew]

This is a very difficult thread, because whatever you say is going to be controversial.

Does the fact that they parents were stupid enough to leave such young kids alone outweigh the fact that Madeleine has gone missing?

[Hazell B]

No of course it doesn't and I don't think anyone's suggested that in previous threads on the subject.

[Drew]

Nope, but that's where the controversy lies.

I'll be surprised if they manage to find her. Unless what happened to that Austrian girl (kidnapped aged 10 and kept in a cellar for 6/8 years and then escaped) happened to Madeleine.

[tinchote]

In the newspapers in Argentina today there were news that some blood was found in the same room where the girl dissappeared from. Apparently they are analyzing it; if it happens to be hers, it might flip the situation completely.

[oily oaf]

In the newspapers in Argentina today there were news that some blood was found in the same room where the girl dissappeared from. Apparently they are analyzing it; if it happens to be hers, it might flip the situation completely.

Zenophobia alert!

Yes indeed traces of blood have been found in the apartment where the little girl was staying.
Not only that but according to today's Sun newspaper (I only buy it for the financial pages) it was discovered by a BRITISH sniffer dog.
Presumably that's in stark contrast to those bone idle, feckless, Portuguese hounds who instead of snuffling around all over the gaff for vital forensic evidence spend their days lazing about in shady backstreets, wearing sombreros, swilling Sagres Canine Lager and guzzling sardine flavoured dog biscuits.
Com os diabos! (that's foreign for Blimey!)

[BDunnell]

Zenophobia alert!

Yes indeed traces of blood have been found in the apartment where the little girl was staying.
Not only that but according to today's Sun newspaper (I only buy it for the financial pages) it was discovered by a BRITISH sniffer dog.
Presumably that's in stark contrast to those bone idle, feckless, Portuguese hounds who instead of snuffling around all over the gaff for vital forensic evidence spend their days lazing about in shady backstreets, wearing sombreros, swilling Sagres Canine Lager and guzzling sardine flavoured dog biscuits.
Com os diabos! (that's foreign for Blimey!)

As ever, :laugh:

[Mark]

The papers are going rather crazy this morning. One headline suggesting that Maddie must have died in her bedroom, which isn't helpful :s

[BDunnell]

The papers are going rather crazy this morning. One headline suggesting that Maddie must have died in her bedroom, which isn't helpful :s

Yes, I saw that. Yet again, someone is obviously feeding the media's frenzy for information about a case at a point before it seems desirable to do so. Sadly, this sort of thing does sell papers, because large numbers of people do want to read the stories and otherwise the authorities always get criticised for not being seen to be doing anything.

[LotusElise]

They haven't said whose blood has been found on the walls. The Telegraph leader article this morning also said that the specially-trained cocker spaniels that found it can smell blood up to seven years old. It could be a huge false alarm.
The British press, especially the tabloids, are not very responsible at the best of times but their obsessive coverage of the whole business is not going to help any suspect to get the fair trial required. If they are guilty, then there needs to be no grounds for appeal. If they are not, then the obvious is true.

[BDunnell]

The trouble is that people in the UK do like to go, 'Oooh, isn't it terrible' a lot, and then get potential dangers out of all proportion.

[tintin]

I'm sure if a forensic team examined most people's bedrooms they would find traces of blood. It's not that unexpected a substance to find in a place where people live.

I am glad that they are now only running stories about Maddie when there is something new to report, rather than the "Missing girl still missing" headlines we had for the first fortnight.

[Mark]

I found it rather strange that the blood samples were being flown all the way to the UK for anaysis. Doesn't Portugal have labs which can deal with it? Do Portuguese police send all their forensic evidence to the UK? :confused:

[BDunnell]

The thing I find strange is that the papers seem undecided on how to spell the shortened form of her name. Is it Maddy? Is it Maddie? Sometimes I've seen two different versions side by side on the news-stands.

[LotusElise]

I read somewhere a while back that she was never called that by anybody prior to her disappearance, so there is no "right way" of spelling it.

[BDunnell]

I read somewhere a while back that she was never called that by anybody prior to her disappearance, so there is no "right way" of spelling it.

I see. Doesn't surprise me, I must say.

[Ian McC]

I am amazed it is still in the news, the attention span of the public and the media is quite short. Here parents have put a lot of effort into keeping this in the public eye.

As much as I wish otherwise I fear that she may never be found now :(

[Hazell B]

I'm sure if a forensic team examined most people's bedrooms they would find traces of blood.

We had a count up here last night and we can remember bleeding at some point in each and every room of our house on at least two occasions. Okay, I've been here 15 years or so, but a hotel room over a year old is sure to have two or three 'donors' if averages work out, isn't it?
I'm not holding my breath on the blood in the room.

[Bezza]

It is getting tiresome to be honest. Whenever there is no news to report, the paper runs with the headline "I still believe Maddie is alive". At least five times I've read that now.

It is all very distressing of course but I am surprised the parents haven't been questioned more thoroughly already. Why are they only examining the house now?

The likelihood is that she is dead, to put it bluntly.

[fandango]

They had a report on this on the main Spanish news tonight, talking about how sophisticated these dogs were that found the blood. They're seemingly insured for millions, fed a special salmon diet and travel in cars with air conditioning, which is probably a bit of a downer if you're a dog and can't stick your snout out the window.

The general idea was that now they'll be able to trace the scent of the blood found in the room. But you have to ask, why wasn't this done ages ago?

[Daniel]

I stand by what I said originally when this happened. Something isn't right. How can two supposedly intelligent people leave 3 children under the age of 5 on their own and think that it was ok. They have NEVER revealed to anyone how long they were left, where they were in relation to the room (was it in view) and how long they left the children alone for. Why was the FREE creche facility not used?

A lot of questions and not many answers

[Malbec]

I stand by what I said originally when this happened. Something isn't right. How can two supposedly intelligent people leave 3 children under the age of 5 on their own and think that it was ok. They have NEVER revealed to anyone how long they were left, where they were in relation to the room (was it in view) and how long they left the children alone for. Why was the FREE creche facility not used?

A lot of questions and not many answers

I thought they'd announced the time they last checked up on her and the time they found her missing, about 40 minutes or so, and that it was known that they were eating in a nearby restaurant and the location of the room and restaurant had been shown on a map for days after the girl went missing. That was all in the public domain.

Yes its rather silly to leave kids in the way they did, especially so knowing what we know now but the fact is that intelligent people can do remarkably silly things. Can you imagine a top F1 engineer passing a rival teams' plans to his wife so she could have them copied to CD at a local print shop? Nobody would ever be THAT stupid would they?

[Daniel]

I thought they'd announced the time they last checked up on her and the time they found her missing, about 40 minutes or so, and that it was known that they were eating in a nearby restaurant and the location of the room and restaurant had been shown on a map for days after the girl went missing. That was all in the public domain.

Yes its rather silly to leave kids in the way they did, especially so knowing what we know now but the fact is that intelligent people can do remarkably silly things. Can you imagine a top F1 engineer passing a rival teams' plans to his wife so she could have them copied to CD at a local print shop? Nobody would ever be THAT stupid would they?

Sorry must have missed that.

Must have also missed the day when sport became more important than the safety of your children.

[BDunnell]

I don't think a direct comparison was being made. I thought it was a reasonable example, personally, of how clever people can do stupid things that have bad consequences for them and others. Lots of people do it on all sorts of levels with results of different magnitudes.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I stand by what I said originally when this happened. Something isn't right. How can two supposedly intelligent people leave 3 children under the age of 5 on their own and think that it was ok. They have NEVER revealed to anyone how long they were left, where they were in relation to the room (was it in view) and how long they left the children alone for. Why was the FREE creche facility not used?

Madeleine's father has said that in his mind, it was like they were having in a meal in the garden.

The thing is, everybody knows that it was extremely foolish for the McCanns to leave their children alone like this, so I don't see why people feel the need to keep pointing it out. We all make mistakes in life, and they are paying for theirs in the worst way anyone could possibly imagine.

[tintin]

Fifteen weeks after she goes missing, the police now say it's likely she's dead.

No wonder this is dragging on so long - I don't know anyone who thinks she was still alive 15 hours after she went missing.

[LiamM]

I found it rather strange that the blood samples were being flown all the way to the UK for anaysis. Doesn't Portugal have labs which can deal with it? Do Portuguese police send all their forensic evidence to the UK? :confused:

The National DNA Laboratory in Birmingham is run by the Forensic Science Service (FSS) a part-government owned company, who can accept samples from anywhere over the globe for analysis.

Im not sure about the Portuguese Police. But UK Constabularies are allowed to send their samples to the lab of their choice - as ever in the world of business - the cheapest wins.

They may have been flown to the UK, cos the time it would have taken the Portuguese to do analyse the sample was too long, and the FSS offered a much shorter time

[Malbec]

I don't think a direct comparison was being made. I thought it was a reasonable example, personally, of how clever people can do stupid things that have bad consequences for them and others. Lots of people do it on all sorts of levels with results of different magnitudes.

Thanks, that was exactly the point I was trying to make.

[Daniel]

Madeleine's father has said that in his mind, it was like they were having in a meal in the garden.

The thing is, everybody knows that it was extremely foolish for the McCanns to leave their children alone like this, so I don't see why people feel the need to keep pointing it out. We all make mistakes in life, and they are paying for theirs in the worst way anyone could possibly imagine.

What I'm saying is that I don't feel the story adds up.

Dylan. It's still different. If I go out and do something stupid and I lose my job that's dumb. But if I had a child and made a stupid decision then I think that's criminally negligent. Wasn't there talk that they didn't even lock the door?

It was also reported earlier this week that the sniffer dogs apparently think that Madeleine died in that room. Now if that be the case how did the smell of a dead body get there without the body being there for such a short period?

I won't go as far as out and out saying that they killed their daughter but I think the McCann's story doesn't add up.

[Malbec]

Dylan. It's still different. If I go out and do something stupid and I lose my job that's dumb. But if I had a child and made a stupid decision then I think that's criminally negligent. Wasn't there talk that they didn't even lock the door?

My point is Daniel that people do make stupid decisions however intelligent they are. Whether the consequences happen to be that your industrial espionage gets blown or a child goes missing is utterly irrelevant. I could raise the stakes even further and give you examples of wars that have been started by very intelligent people for very stupid reasons resulting in the deaths of 100s of thousands or millions, or of events where ridiculously simple oversights being made changed the course of history and affected far more than the life of one child.

The fact that such a simple error was made, however ridiculous or negligent it may be, is not proof of a conspiracy or a cover up.

[Daniel]

My point is Daniel that people do make stupid decisions however intelligent they are. Whether the consequences happen to be that your industrial espionage gets blown or a child goes missing is utterly irrelevant. I could raise the stakes even further and give you examples of wars that have been started by very intelligent people for very stupid reasons resulting in the deaths of 100s of thousands or millions, or of events where ridiculously simple oversights being made changed the course of history and affected far more than the life of one child.

The fact that such a simple error was made, however ridiculous or negligent it may be, is not proof of a conspiracy or a cover up.
I wasn't saying it was proof. I was just saying that to me it arouses suspicion. I could be wrong. I could be right. It's merely my opinion

[BeansBeansBeans]

It was also reported earlier this week that the sniffer dogs apparently think that Madeleine died in that room.

You've just given me a mental image of a talking dog detective, like Brian from Family Guy :p :

[Daniel]

You've just given me a mental image of a talking dog detective, like Brian from Family Guy :p :
Bad way of putting it I know :p

[LotusElise]

I won't go as far as out and out saying that they killed their daughter but I think the McCann's story doesn't add up.

The original story about checking on the kids every half-hour was later changed to every forty minutes. A different story then emerged suggesting that the children might only have been looked in on once an hour. The staff in the restaurant are said to have claimed that no-one from the McCann group left the table at all.

The version of events given by different members of the McCann group are also meant to be conflicting.

[Flat.tyres]

The original story about checking on the kids every half-hour was later changed to every forty minutes. A different story then emerged suggesting that the children might only have been looked in on once an hour. The staff in the restaurant are said to have claimed that no-one from the McCann group left the table at all.

The version of events given by different members of the McCann group are also meant to be conflicting.

for crying out loud. this is tabloid muck we're talking about :rolleyes:

he said, she said, they said etc. everyone loves a conspiracy dont they? we can all feel holier than though about what a henious crime it was to leave the kids unsupervised for whatever period it was.

any parent, and I mean ANY parent will remember a time when they have left their child unsupervised. it may be leaving them in the garden while they pop into the toilet, it may be in the pub garden while you pop in for some drinks. we leave them with baby sitters that we know as neighbours but have never been police checked and at creches at hotels where we have no idea who works there but just trust they have no sinister motives.

the Mcannes have made a understandable mistake with disasterous consequenses. how must they be wracked with guilt? they thought they were looking after their children adequatly and trying to have some fun and relaxation on holiday. thats what their crime was.

for the horror of this case, it is worth remembering that it has taught us parents that no matter how safe we feel and how secure we believe our children to be, we must be even more vigilant because there are very nasty *******s out there that torture, rape and murder little kids.

Thats the bottom line.

[LotusElise]

I was only reporting what has been said and agreeing with other posters. Tabloid or not, this is the only information we have to go on if we are to discuss this at all. Most of this information is not even from the British tabloids, it's stuff from Portuguese media that is shared online over here. The British tabloids have been remarkably lenient on the McCanns, preferring to cast them as victims. They aren't the victims, their daughter is.

Nipping to the toilet or answering the phone while your kids are in the garden is completely different to leaving them unsupervised in a hotel room while you go out with friends two streets away, potentially leaving them all night.

[Daniel]

for crying out loud. this is tabloid muck we're talking about :rolleyes:

he said, she said, they said etc. everyone loves a conspiracy dont they? we can all feel holier than though about what a henious crime it was to leave the kids unsupervised for whatever period it was.

any parent, and I mean ANY parent will remember a time when they have left their child unsupervised. it may be leaving them in the garden while they pop into the toilet, it may be in the pub garden while you pop in for some drinks. we leave them with baby sitters that we know as neighbours but have never been police checked and at creches at hotels where we have no idea who works there but just trust they have no sinister motives.

the Mcannes have made a understandable mistake with disasterous consequenses. how must they be wracked with guilt? they thought they were looking after their children adequatly and trying to have some fun and relaxation on holiday. thats what their crime was.

for the horror of this case, it is worth remembering that it has taught us parents that no matter how safe we feel and how secure we believe our children to be, we must be even more vigilant because there are very nasty *******s out there that torture, rape and murder little kids.

Thats the bottom line.

Understandable mistake? What's understandable about being so obviously negligent in taking care of a child?

This is not "tabloid muck" , this is their story and I personally don't believe it when they go changing it around and so on.

I'm not one of these twits with a tin foil hat believing that everything is a conspiracy. I hope if it's found that she was kidnapped that they face criminal charges and I hope if it's found that they had something to do with her disappearance/murder? that they get hung from the highest tree in a manner of speaking. Just because they didn't want her to get snatched is no excuse for leaving her in a situation where it was all too easy for someone to snatch her by leaving the children unattended and in an UNFRIGGINLOCKED apartment. If I had a child and left them in a car (locked or unlocked) while I went into a shop for a few minutes and wasn't able to see the car that would be an offence. Why not the same treatment for them?

[tintin]

Understandable mistake? What's understandable about being so obviously negligent in taking care of a child?

This is not "tabloid muck" , this is their story and I personally don't believe it when they go changing it around and so on.



Agreed.
They left three under-fives alone in an unlocked apartment in a foreign country for more than three hours. And may have checked on them at irregular intervals.

Was someone who was sat around that restaurant table involved in Maddy's disappearance/death? Crime patterns would suggest yes. But the circumstantial evidence says no - nobody was away from the table long enough to have taken her out of the zone the police would have searched that night.

[Daniel]

Agreed.
They left three under-fives alone in an unlocked apartment in a foreign country for more than three hours. And may have checked on them at irregular intervals.

Was someone who was sat around that restaurant table involved in Maddy's disappearance/death? Crime patterns would suggest yes. But the circumstantial evidence says no - nobody was away from the table long enough to have taken her out of the zone the police would have searched that night.

True. Which is why I'd stop short of out and out accusing them of being involved but it's not outside the realms of possibility that they could be involved.

What makes me suspicious is this
1. The changes in story
2. Free creche yet they leave their 3 children in an unlocked apartment?
3. 3 children in the room yet only 1 goes missing?

Just doesn't add up if you ask me :)

[Flat.tyres]

Agreed.
They left three under-fives alone in an unlocked apartment in a foreign country for more than three hours. And may have checked on them at irregular intervals.

Was someone who was sat around that restaurant table involved in Maddy's disappearance/death? Crime patterns would suggest yes. But the circumstantial evidence says no - nobody was away from the table long enough to have taken her out of the zone the police would have searched that night.

I dont know the full facts of what they did or did not do. What we do know is thay made a terrible error of judgement. what I would suggest is that at the time they thought they had taken adequate measures to safeguard their children. they were in a family resort, in a family orientated country, they were on holiday, the weather was nice, the kids were tired after playing on the beach all day and were fast asleep.

there options were to wake the kids up and take them to a strange creche with people they didnt know, or to leave them asleep and check on them periodically while Mum and Dad had some dinner.

they made a decision that we now know was catastrophically wrong and will live with that for the rest of their lives. the finger of blame from people with a degree in hindsight, a PHD in judgementation and a failed 11+ in compassion and understanding. moreover, even though there is no evidence, you will get the conspiracy theorists saying "something dont add up. it dont make sense otherwise why not use the creche, why leave the door unlocked etc. Theres no smoke without fire and Im not accusing them directly but it looks dodgy."

Imagine living with that suspicion?

as a parent of two lovely children, I feel compassion for the family, sorrow for what is probably yet another raped and murdered child and hope that some good comes out of this and other parents avoid the same fate.

overall though, I feel hate to the perpetrators of this crime and pray they are caught. they are the guilty ones and all negative thoughts should be directed at them.

[LotusElise]

Ithere options were to wake the kids up and take them to a strange creche with people they didnt know, or to leave them asleep and check on them periodically while Mum and Dad had some dinner.

No, they could have used the resort's babysitting service - free until 11 pm apparently - and left the children to sleep, but they chose not to. They could also have eaten together with their children earlier, which is much much easier to achieve somewhere like Portugal than it is in the UK! When my brother and I were little, we always ate our meals with our mum and dad on holiday. Their group could have taken it in turns to "have" the kids in the evening, as many people do in this situation. Or they could have relaxed on the balcony/terrace (I think there was one) with a glass of wine while the children slept an arm's reach away, instead of going out.


the finger of blame from people with a degree in hindsight, a PHD in judgementation and a failed 11+ in compassion and understanding. moreover, even though there is no evidence, you will get the conspiracy theorists saying "something dont add up. it dont make sense otherwise why not use the creche, why leave the door unlocked etc. Theres no smoke without fire and Im not accusing them directly but it looks dodgy."


Please get down off your high horse.

[donKey jote]

They left three under-fives alone in an unlocked apartment in a foreign country for more than three hours.
What does the foreign country have to do with it? Would they have been any safer leaving them alone at a holiday location in the UK ? :dozey:

In the Spanish news, they were pointing out the fact that in none of the Spanish cases of missing kids, did the parents go on to raise hundreds of thousands of Euros by requesting donations on their website. Different cultures or what ? ;)

[Daniel]

I dont know the full facts of what they did or did not do. What we do know is thay made a terrible error of judgement. what I would suggest is that at the time they thought they had taken adequate measures to safeguard their children. they were in a family resort, in a family orientated country, they were on holiday, the weather was nice, the kids were tired after playing on the beach all day and were fast asleep.

there options were to wake the kids up and take them to a strange creche with people they didnt know, or to leave them asleep and check on them periodically while Mum and Dad had some dinner.

they made a decision that we now know was catastrophically wrong and will live with that for the rest of their lives. the finger of blame from people with a degree in hindsight, a PHD in judgementation and a failed 11+ in compassion and understanding. moreover, even though there is no evidence, you will get the conspiracy theorists saying "something dont add up. it dont make sense otherwise why not use the creche, why leave the door unlocked etc. Theres no smoke without fire and Im not accusing them directly but it looks dodgy."

Imagine living with that suspicion?

as a parent of two lovely children, I feel compassion for the family, sorrow for what is probably yet another raped and murdered child and hope that some good comes out of this and other parents avoid the same fate.

overall though, I feel hate to the perpetrators of this crime and pray they are caught. they are the guilty ones and all negative thoughts should be directed at them.

So just because she's their child it's OK is it? :rolleyes: How about when I had a group of six 9 year olds on a school trip recently. If I'd left them somewhere unattended because I thought they were safe and one of them disappeared I'd probably be facing some sort of criminal charges now. Just because it's their child and they're dealing with the pain doesn't mean they're without blame.

The fact of the matter is that her parents are at fault for whatever has happened to Madeleine.

[Daniel]

what I would suggest is that at the time they thought they had taken adequate measures to safeguard their children.

Blah blah blah. Doesn't matter one bit. If I overtake around a blind corner and hit someone head-on and killed them it's not OK just because I thought that I wasn't taking any stupid risk and had taken adequate measures to safeguard the safety of my fellow road users. Just because they thought they took adequate measures (Leaving the door unlocked I'm guessing) doesn't mean they did. What they think doesn't matter because unless they are involved, what they thought got their daughter abducted and possibly killed.

[tintin]

Here's one to throw the cat among the pigeons:

Should the McCann's other children be taken into care, or are should they still regarded as suitable parents despite their history of neglect?

[donKey jote]

:up: :laugh:

[Bezza]

It is getting tiresome to be honest. Whenever there is no news to report, the paper runs with the headline "I still believe Maddie is alive". At least five times I've read that now.


Todays Daily Express:

"Madeleine IS Alive" - Parent remain optimistic...

:rolleyes:

[Peter Mandelson]

Missing white woman syndrome


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Missing_white_woman_syndrome&oldid=137867304

[Peter Mandelson]

Todays Daily Express:

"Madeleine IS Alive" - Parent remain optimistic...

:rolleyes:

Madeleine Week

http://www.express.co.uk/ourpaper/view/2007-08-13

[Daniel]

Missing white woman syndrome


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Missing_white_woman_syndrome&oldid=137867304
So true

[Malbec]

Missing white woman syndrome


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Missing_white_woman_syndrome&oldid=137867304

I'm not sure that article does anything beyond indicating that Madeleine McCann got a lot more press attention because she's white, female and from a middle class background which is rather sadly a statement of the obvious.

There are a lot of unpleasant judgmental comments condemning the McCanns here based on information from the rather fickle press.

I would have thought the British public would have learnt from the Menezes affair when the press reporting of the whole affair turned out to be totally at odds with what actually happened as to the difference between British media 'fact' and straight fact.

I would also have thought that 'there but for the grace of God go I' be something to ponder over.

[Flat.tyres]

No, they could have used the resort's babysitting service - free until 11 pm apparently - and left the children to sleep, but they chose not to. They could also have eaten together with their children earlier, which is much much easier to achieve somewhere like Portugal than it is in the UK! When my brother and I were little, we always ate our meals with our mum and dad on holiday. Their group could have taken it in turns to "have" the kids in the evening, as many people do in this situation. Or they could have relaxed on the balcony/terrace (I think there was one) with a glass of wine while the children slept an arm's reach away, instead of going out.

all Im saying is that they embarked on a series of actions that had disasterous consequenses. we dont know all the facts and can all sit here and gaze into the hindsight oracle. I would guess that they had no intentions of doing anything detrimental to their childrens welfare and will never forgive themselves for what they did, or failed to do.

parents make mistakes and I know I have with my kids. you try your best but sometimes you fall below an acceptable standard. it may be that your sharp from stress or overwork or are not around enough in the weekends or evenings. it may be you let them watch telly on a nice day instead of taking them over the park because you want a bit of time to relax and it may be you let them pop over the green which is just infront of the house to kick a ball back to each other and never see them again as they are abducted.

i suspect that most parents can associate with the scenario above. "Its onlo over the green and I can see them from the window. theres 2 of them so they will be safe....." This is the normal thought process for a knackered and burnt out parent trying their best but the judgemental on here will point out that this sort of desertion should make me a criminal and have my children taken into care.

I may be wrong Lotus and Daniel but I suspect you dont have children and if you do, that they are below 5 years of age.


Please get down off your high horse. :confused: hang on a minute. Im the one advocating restraint and trying to point out there are not only 2 sides to this story but also a plethora of contributing factors so perhaps we shouldnt be so judgemental and you have the nerve and audacity to accuse me of being on my high horse.

do you even know what the term means? I suggest you re-read my posts and look the term up in a dictionary before re-reading yours and Daniels.

[Flat.tyres]

The fact of the matter is that her parents are at fault for whatever has happened to Madeleine.

NO! it is the diabolical piece of sh*ts that abducted the poor girl that are responsible. the McCanns, on the media reports we have :rolleyes: are probably guilty of a degree of neglect and a failure to secure their children if you want to get technical about this. they would have assumed their kids were going to be safe and if it wasnt for the criminals in this case, their kids would have been perfectly safe and we would never have heard about them.

The criminals are responsible for what happened to Madeline. the parents were guilty of having their Guard down.

[Flat.tyres]

There are a lot of unpleasant judgmental comments condemning the McCanns here based on information from the rather fickle press.

I would have thought the British public would have learnt from the Menezes affair when the press reporting of the whole affair turned out to be totally at odds with what actually happened as to the difference between British media 'fact' and straight fact.

I would also have thought that 'there but for the grace of God go I' be something to ponder over.

thank you. I thought I was in the twilight zone for a while.

[LotusElise]

i suspect that most parents can associate with the scenario above. "Its onlo over the green and I can see them from the window. theres 2 of them so they will be safe....." This is the normal thought process for a knackered and burnt out parent trying their best but the judgemental on here will point out that this sort of desertion should make me a criminal and have my children taken into care.

No, almost all parents would have come to some alternative arrangement, such as the ones I described earlier. It is not okay to leave tiny children unsupervised so the parents can go and have some "me time". Why even bother going on a family holiday if you're going to do that? My parents never did and neither do the vast majority of mums and dads.


I may be wrong Lotus and Daniel but I suspect you dont have children and if you do, that they are below 5 years of age.

No, I don't, but I've looked after children ranging from 4 months to teenage, many times, and even I know that you do not leave preschoolers unsupervised, ever. If I had been found by any of these childrens' parents to have left them to go to the pub or similar, they would have rightly informed the police and taken steps to ensure I didn't go near their or their friends' children again.
Your comment about over-fives is irrelevant to this situation.


accuse me of being on my high horse.



I appreciate my choice of words may have been a little harsh and apologise if I have caused any offence. However, your status as parent does not give you the moral high ground and I am justfied in questioning the McCanns' actions.

[Mark]

I do wish the media would just keep quiet about it until there is some real news! "We think she's alive", "We think she's not alive", is not news :s

[Flat.tyres]

No, almost all parents would have come to some alternative arrangement, such as the ones I described earlier. It is not okay to leave tiny children unsupervised so the parents can go and have some "me time". Why even bother going on a family holiday if you're going to do that? My parents never did and neither do the vast majority of mums and dads.



No, I don't, but I've looked after children ranging from 4 months to teenage, many times, and even I know that you do not leave preschoolers unsupervised, ever. If I had been found by any of these childrens' parents to have left them to go to the pub or similar, they would have rightly informed the police and taken steps to ensure I didn't go near their or their friends' children again.
Your comment about over-fives is irrelevant to this situation.



I appreciate my choice of words may have been a little harsh and apologise if I have caused any offence. However, your status as parent does not give you the moral high ground and I am justfied in questioning the McCanns' actions.

you are totally justified in questioning their actions and for the record, I think you are right.

There is no defence of their actions that were wholly wrong and fell well short of what a responsible parent should do according to the information we have.

all I was trying to point out is that parents make mistakes. They are not perfect and sometimes make illogical choices thinking they are perfectly rational. those mistakes will haunt them for the rest of their lives and I feel really sorry for the whole family.

Lastly, we should remember that although the McCanns fell short of their duty of care, it was the perpetrators of these vile crimes that deserve our scorn and not 2 wretched parents that have condemned themselves to a life sentence along with Madaline

[Daniel]

NO! it is the diabolical piece of sh*ts that abducted the poor girl that are responsible. the McCanns, on the media reports we have :rolleyes: are probably guilty of a degree of neglect and a failure to secure their children if you want to get technical about this. they would have assumed their kids were going to be safe and if it wasnt for the criminals in this case, their kids would have been perfectly safe and we would never have heard about them.

The criminals are responsible for what happened to Madeline. the parents were guilty of having their Guard down.
If the parents had not left her alone would this have happened?

If Yes then it's not their fault.
If No then it's their fault.

[Flat.tyres]

If the parents had not left her alone would this have happened?

If Yes then it's not their fault.
If No then it's their fault.

oh, its all so very black and white to the perfect people, isnt it :rolleyes:

yes, they made a mistake. that was their fault.

NO! they did not kidnap and god knows what else to that poor girl. They are not guilty of that but will probably blame themselves for the rest of thei lives.

so fair and evenhanded are you Daniel. so balanced and understanding but I pray that one day, your mistakes wont be punished like the McCanns were :(

[Daniel]

oh, its all so very black and white to the perfect people, isnt it :rolleyes:

yes, they made a mistake. that was their fault.

NO! they did not kidnap and god knows what else to that poor girl. They are not guilty of that but will probably blame themselves for the rest of thei lives.

so fair and evenhanded are you Daniel. so balanced and understanding but I pray that one day, your mistakes wont be punished like the McCanns were :(
The fact remains that if I did the same with someone elses child I'd be facing criminal charges. But because it's their own child it's just a tragic mistake and it's "not their fault" according to the softies of this world.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The fact remains that if I did the same with someone else's child I'd be facing criminal charges. But because it's their own child it's just a tragic mistake and it's "not their fault" according to the softies of this world.

100% correct :up:

[schmenke]

NO! it is the diabolical piece of sh*ts that abducted the poor girl that are responsible. ...

No. Parents are ultimately responsible for the safety and well-being of their children.

[schmenke]

No, almost all parents would have come to some alternative arrangement, such as the ones I described earlier. It is not okay to leave tiny children unsupervised so the parents can go and have some "me time". Why even bother going on a family holiday if you're going to do that? ...

Totally agree.

[Daniel]

No, almost all parents would have come to some alternative arrangement, such as the ones I described earlier. It is not okay to leave tiny children unsupervised so the parents can go and have some "me time". Why even bother going on a family holiday if you're going to do that?

Or more to the point why bother having a family if you're too "Me me me" oriented to take proper care of your children? If you've ever watched Animal Cops Houston you'll realise that these people are no better than the people who mistreat animals and then go "But I love my animals" :rolleyes:

[Storm]

I have not bothered too much to keep track of this news in the media or on the forums, just for the fact that I don't really know why this is being dragged on and on ...Yes its terrible that a 4 yr old is missing/kidnapped (even dead) but are there not plenty of other missing children in every part of the world?
Also add to this that the parents seemingly left these kids to go out themselves means I have little sympathy for them, although I do hope the child is alive and is found.

[Hazell B]

Parents are ultimately responsible for the safety and well-being of their children.


Exactly, while whoever took the child is responsible for the outcome. If the parents hadn't given him chance (or chances, as it happened) he wouldn't have taken her.

Simple as that.

For the record, I've heard the father say Maddie was checked 15 minutes before they went in and discovered her missing. Those words escaped his mouth on a BBC News interview only last week. He also agreed by nodding to the 15 minute timeline in a later question about events.

What a crock. It takes more than fifteen minutes to pay the bill, finish drinks, say goodbyes and walk back the 80m from the restaurant when you're with friends. It takes more than 15 mins to eat any one course, so when they claimed the children were checked each 15 mins that's also utter rubbish.

Why do the Brit reporters let they lie so obviously?
If they were from a northern council estate, like another missing child called Ben Needham, I expect different reports would be doing the rounds.

[Flat.tyres]

I dont disagree that the parents are responsible for ensuring the safety of their children, could have and should have handled things differently. all im saying is that parents make mistakes and to lump them in the same catagory as the perpetrators of this crime is wrong in my eyes. they made a mistake. they cocked up. they will pay for that for the rest of their lives.

as a parent, we make mistakes but christ on a bike, you lot are a bit disproportianate in your blame. to claim that the McCanns were blatently lying and were even part of the conspiracy is totally unfounded.

I can see Im in a minority of one here so will accept that others have far more stringent views on compassion as me but I feel its wrong to blame the parents, even though they made a dreadfull mistake, for what happened afterwards. I just feel pity for them :(

[LotusElise]

A mistake is something you don't do on purpose though. A mistake would be forgetting to put a baby in a carrycot in the car before driving off (which my mum did to me once). Or accidentally letting a toddler eat a dessert with alcohol in it. These things happen all the time and are often part of a learning process for parents and children.
I'm not sure that deliberately, arrogantly, assuming that you are somehow different to everyone else and don't need to ensure your children are looked after properly counts. I'm not sure what the proper word for that is.

[Mark]

Just because you take more than 15 minutes to eat a meal or say goodbye to your friends then they must be lying? :eek:

[Daniel]

Just because you take more than 15 minutes to eat a meal or say goodbye to your friends then they must be lying? :eek:
Well they do seem to change their story more times than I change my underpants in a month :mark: Not keeping to one story is usually a sign of a liar or a pair of them in this case.

I think as Hazell said if Kate McAnn's hair was in a chavvy scrunchy and she had a fake tan and a burberry handbag then this would all be seen so different. If Madeleine wasn't so cute the parents would be dismissed as a pair idiots for leaving their three young children alone and unsecured. But sadly her parents are normal looking people who are supposedly intelligent and Madeleine is a cute child.

What angers me is that so much money is offered as reward and there have been donations and such. Why not give this money to a charity and save tens of thousands of children in third world countries rather than one child whose parents are too dimwitted to take proper care of her.

[Malbec]

I'm not sure that deliberately, arrogantly, assuming that you are somehow different to everyone else and don't need to ensure your children are looked after properly counts. I'm not sure what the proper word for that is.

Deliberately, arrogantly assuming that you don't need to ensure your children are looked after properly?

They deliberately placed their kids in a position where they could be abducted? I see, they wanted this whole thing to happen all along....

The McCanns made a mistake. An obvious one, a stupid one, absolutely.

But I suggest to you that you have made mistakes in bringing up your children too, that there have been occasions where if someone had tried to cause harm to your children you were not in a position to prevent it through some oversight. It is through luck that your oversights were not punished and theirs was.

Its also a sad indictment of how society is in this country that people feel its 100% necessary to keep their children in close view at all times regardless of the situation. I remember very well when I was a child that I would spend most of the day playing outside with kids living nearby without concern and without any of our parents being around. Those days are over it seems.

Perhaps some compassion is in order.

[Daniel]

What she means is that it wasn't an accident. They didn't just forget the kids. They chose to put them in that situation.

[Drew]

I just hope someday the truth comes out and we find out what has happened :)

But I also hope she's find alive and well, but I can't see that happening.

[LotusElise]

What she means is that it wasn't an accident. They didn't just forget the kids. They chose to put them in that situation.

Correct.

Out of all the options available to them, they chose the worst one and thought that was appropriate.
As for Dylan's comparison to when he used to play outside, that is different. These children were preschoolers, unable to defend themselves, seek help or assess a situation.

[Flat.tyres]

I just hope someday the truth comes out and we find out what has happened :)

But I also hope she's find alive and well, but I can't see that happening.

second that :up: comdenation serves no purpose in this case. learning lessons does.

[Daniel]

second that :up: comdenation serves no purpose in this case. learning lessons does.
We don't need L plate parents. We need parents who aren't self centred and think of the ramifications of everything they do upon their children.

[Flat.tyres]

We don't need L plate parents. We need parents who aren't self centred and think of the ramifications of everything they do upon their children.

boy, oh boy, have you got a steep learning curve ahead. Enjoy :laugh:

parenting is a roller-coaster from crisis to disaster. good intentions are fine but this isnt a perfect world which one day you will find out. :D

when you have a son or a daughter that says "no, make me" I'd love to be a fly on the wall.

your choices are

1. make them. assault (smack on the bum), infringing their human rights (false imprisonment by putting them in their room), actual bodily harm (leaving a red mark by holding their arm to stop them running off) etc

2. let them do it.

come on super dad. what yer gonna do :laugh:

blackmail and bribery is a wonderfull tool. :p :

[schmenke]

...
I'm not sure that deliberately, arrogantly, assuming that you are somehow different to everyone else and don't need to ensure your children are looked after properly counts. I'm not sure what the proper word for that is.

Negligence.

[tintin]

If they were from a northern council estate, like another missing child called Ben Needham, I expect different reports would be doing the rounds.

I was annoyed that the mainstream media (and I don't count the Yorkshire Post, which has, as mainstream) hadn't drawn any parallels between Maddy and Ben.

However once I thought about it, I decided that the cases are too different to be able to compare them.

Certainly the general view is that Ben is still alive - He'll be 18 this year, but I doubt he has any memories of his life before being kidnapped, or that he speaks any English.

I don't think anybody seriously believes that Maddy is still alive, and the chances are that Maddy was dead before her parents reported he missing.

The circumstances of their disappearances are also very different. 99% of missing children fit one of five patterns.

1. Scenario: Child "escapes" / runs away.
Age Range: From as soon as child can walk.
Outcome: Young children don't get very far before becoming scared or tired. Will generally try to be found. Usually found alive within 24 hours.

2. Scenario: Child of wealthy or well connected parents kidnapped for ransom
Age Range: Any.
Outcome: Ransom demands made within hours, or certainly days. Child often recovered alive.

3. Scenario: Child abducted by paedophile(s).
Age Range: 3-13
Outcome: More than half killed within an hour of abduction. Nearly all die within 24 hours. Killer makes only crude attempt to hide body, so found within weeks.

4. Scenario: Child abducted by woman, who has recently suffered miscarriage/cot death, or who is unable to have children.
Age Range: Birth-24 months.
Outcome: Woman makes no attempt to hide child, instead pretending it is her own, so usually caught. Child usually found alive within a few days.

5. Scenario: Child killed by parent/guardian, other person known to victim. Often accidental/loss of control.
Age Range: Any
Outcome: Massive search operation. Parent (who killed child) often appears in police TV appeal for information. Body often found within a few weeks, but sometimes never found.


Ben Needham fits pattern 4 perfectly.
Maddy doesn't - she's too old.

So that leaves pattern 3 or 5.
The Maddy case doesn't fit either of them well enough - although it's closer to 5.

[schmenke]

...But I suggest to you that you have made mistakes in bringing up your children too, that there have been occasions where if someone had tried to cause harm to your children you were not in a position to prevent it through some oversight. ..

Nope, not me, ever.


... It is through luck that your oversights were not punished ....

Nope, not luck. Diligence and care.

[DonnieDarco]

Flat, I agree with you to a certain extent on all that :D

I swore I'd never allow 'my child' to pee in the gutter, right up to the time I was potty training him, he needed a wee, and had helpfully left about 10 seconds before he was going to have one, whether I was ready or not :D

ALL parents learn the hard way about parenting. We all make snap decisions ever day, according to what we think is best for them.

I can tell you that not once have I ever thought it'd be a great idea to go on holiday abroad and leave my son unattended in his room with the door UNLOCKED so I could enjoy a slap up meal with friends. If they had at least kept the door locked! That's the part I struggle with the most.

I find it extremely hard to feel sorry for them, when I think of what their little girl might be suffering. Because of their actions. Yes of course the person who took the child is the criminal here, but he was able to take her because of the parents. They let her down.

However, I am disgusted with the Portugese police, the case has been handled appallingly which has not helped at all. And I was very annoyed to see reports trying to accuse the parents of murder!! At no time have I ever thought such a thing of them.

[tintin]

I can tell you that not once have I ever thought it'd be a great idea to go on holiday abroad and leave my son unattended in his room with the door UNLOCKED so I could enjoy a slap up meal with friends. If they had at least kept the door locked! That's the part I struggle with the most.


But if they'd locked the door and there'd been a fire, the kids would have been trapped inside and died.

I think once you've got past the "leaving them unattended for the evening" stage, the decision to leave the door unlocked is one that has some logic behind it.

[Daniel]

But if they'd locked the door and there'd been a fire, the kids would have been trapped inside and died.

I think once you've got past the "leaving them unattended for the evening" stage, the decision to leave the door unlocked is one that has some logic behind it.
What if Vampires attacked? Did the children have garlic or wooden stakes? :mark:

[Drew]

Isn't hindsight such a lovely thing?

This thread really doesn't seem to be going anywhere

[Daniel]

Isn't hindsight such a lovely thing?

This thread really doesn't seem to be going anywhere
Why? If I was with them that night and knew they did that I'd have told they were negligent back then too.

[Flat.tyres]

I would like to quote posts 81, 82, 83 and 84 as spot on. yes, even Daniels as it points out that no matter what you try to do, you can never cover all eventualities. :)

I do feel sympathy for the parents as they made a terrible choice and would never seek to deny that but that wonderful hindsight thing is a great gift.

[DonnieDarco]

But if they'd locked the door and there'd been a fire, the kids would have been trapped inside and died.

I think once you've got past the "leaving them unattended for the evening" stage, the decision to leave the door unlocked is one that has some logic behind it.

Well clearly by that stage you would have hurled logic out the nearest unlocked window - You in general, not you specifically :D

The point is, if the door had been locked then the children would have been safer - from abduction.

Fact is we put our kids to bed every night and lock the house up, so I don't really see the argument there. Just because parents are in the house does not mean children can be rescued from the fire, that's a whole bunch of variables depending on where the fire is, etc.

So if they'd locked the door and had the key with them, and if they did really check every 15 minutes as they said, I see the likelihood of fire as being much less than the chances they were being watched by a potential abductor, which as we know was the case.

[Daniel]

Well clearly by that stage you would have hurled logic out the nearest unlocked window - You in general, not you specifically :D

The point is, if the door had been locked then the children would have been safer - from abduction.

Fact is we put our kids to bed every night and lock the house up, so I don't really see the argument there. Just because parents are in the house does not mean children can be rescued from the fire, that's a whole bunch of variables depending on where the fire is, etc.

So if they'd locked the door and had the key with them, and if they did really check every 15 minutes as they said, I see the likelihood of fire as being much less than the chances they were being watched by a potential abductor, which as we know was the case.

The problem is that even if they had checked every 15 minutes that all was OK then if someone is watching they'll work out how often the kids are being checked and choose their time :mark:

If we go on about every possibility possible I'd never drive for fear of the doors locking themselves automatically and my car flying off the road into the river dee and having me drown. But that's a ridiculous thing for me to fear and to a certain extent not wanting to lock a room with three children who are under 5 while they're alone because of fear of fire is just as ridiculous!