Alonso and Mclaren

[ICKE]

BBC : World champion Fernando Alonso has cast doubt on his future with McLaren after relations with his team-mate Lewis Hamilton reached an all-time low.

Hamilton won the Hungarian Grand Prix, but only after the world champion was demoted five grid places for holding up his team-mate during qualifying.

The Spaniard admitted to BBC Sport he was not being treated in the way he expected he would be by McLaren.

Asked if he was happy to stay at McLaren, Alonso said: "We'll see."Alonso to Spanish media : "What Hamilton did to me yesterday, I have never experienced such a thing in my career"

Hamilton : "He (Alonso) doesn't seem to have been speaking to me since yesterday"

There is also a rumour circulating that Alonso does not talk with Mclaren at the moment, all communication goes through his manager.

[ICKE]

I can understand his position though. He is a 2x world champion and suddendly he doesnt get suitable treatment when compared to this rookie who just happens to be from the right country and background.

Alonso is not the kind of person who is just going to and play the nice guy with media - like Hamilton who curses when no-one can hear.

[markabilly]

How dare you stray from the path of the righteous and suggest such heresy...the next thing you will say is that FA has figured out that he is stuck in a game of carrot and the stick, it looks fair and all, give him enough to hope for, do not squash all hopes until the CC is secured then vanquish him to the pit of "recycled drivers"--right now Mclaren can not win the CC and all its cash rewards without him...why he might take premature flight off to BMW, Ferrari or wherever.....

Hush your mouths....

[Ian McC]

Alonsos problem is that Hamilton is too quick, It has nothing to do where he is from, that's just a poor excuse from people looking for excuses.

[Kevincal]

Right, you're like all the rest of the Brits, blindly defending your little Hammy no matter what the circumstance...lol

[ICKE]

I think Alonso has been more competitive in the last couple of races. He would have won, had he not been screwed by the race stewards. Hamilton on the dirty side, Kimi might have taken him in the start.

But the officials have made up their minds, they support Hamilton. He brings money. The british of course think they have this next Schumacher driving for Mclaren who can do no wrong. Atleast Alonso doesnt pretend to be something else, he speaks his mind publicly unlike Hamilton who is posing as a nice guy.

[Fallingwater]

We saw how quick he was at Silverstone, when he decided to use a different setup to Alonso. FA and KR could have pitted again and still finish nearby.
After this Hungarian GP and what Hamilton has done, Alonso is bound to be very angry. The team shouldn't have let Hamilton race today after yesterday's events. After all, they weren't going to get any WCC points. BUT, RD could never do something like that knowing what the media would do and the money at stake.
In my opinion, Alonso will try his best this year (swimming against the wind and the tides), and will probably leave McLaren unless they drastically change their attitude. The rumour that Alonso's family was forced to watch the first race with the Renault people because they weren't welcome at McLaren (unlike Hamilton's family, of course) gives you an idea of the kind of thing he's having to cope with.
Equal technical treatment? Maybe, but that's not the only way a team supports a driver and makes him feel at home. Alonso was unhappy about LH getting a last minute flying lap at Silverstone. It was Alonso's turn yesterday, and you know what happened.

[jens]

Hamilton at the press conference seemed not just tired, but also worried. It looked like that due to the row in the team he really couldn't enjoy his victory.

But it's clear. Reutermann vs Jones, Pironi vs Villeneuve, Mansell vs Piquet, Senna vs Prost. Now we have got another not just a great team-mate battle on the track, but also a very tense atmosphere inside the team.

It all makes me wonder, how would the espionage scandale and the Alonso-Dennis-Hamilton crisis inside the team affect McLaren's performance in 2008... In this millenium McLaren tends to have a good season after a poor one and the reverse. Will this trend continue?

[ICKE]

Briatore is making his move. Apparantely Flavio has instructed Renault´s all three drivers to wait for further conrtact talks until the end of September. His ideal starting lineup would be Alonso and Kovalainen.

Kovalainen has confirmed that this stall is correct but does not relate it directly to Alonso´s possible transfer.

[El Sween]

Right, you're like all the rest of the Brits, blindly defending your little Hammy no matter what the circumstance...lol

Don't tar all us Brits with the same brush. I have watched Lewis since karting and think the guy is awesome but I am still more of an Alonso fan.

[jens]

Funny. If Alonso really leaves (which I can't believe yet, but in this World anything can happen :p : ), who would be McLaren's second driver next year? De la Rosa? :p : Or Paffett? Or di Resta - IMO the most talented guy in the Mercedes young drivers' programme, who has done wonders in DTM and last year in the Euroseries.

Ron must be careful, because however talented Lewis is, he is still quite inexperienced in areas, which demand more time to get to the top than raw speed, for example car setup and development as he is at the moment still largely relying on Alonso's setups.

Btw, joining Renault doesn't seem a very good prospect for Alonso as Renault's future in F1 is still quite unclear. Carlos Ghosn has threatened that if Renault fails to make an impression in 2008, the team will leave F1 (just like what happened in the 80's after two unsuccessful years). And we must not forget the moment, when Alonso left Renault - at the end of 2005 there were high speculations that Renault might leave already after 2006...

But I wouldn't mind if Alonso joined Toyota. :p : ;) :up:

[F1MAN2007]

.......There is also a rumour circulating that Alonso does not talk with Mclaren at the moment, all communication goes through his manager.

It is not a rumour, it is true. Have you seen Alonso dodging Ron in Germany GP? And he did the same thing yesterday. Why he did take Alonso's trainer to talk to him? Because he can't speak to Alonso this time.

Watch this : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=N3t1SLlMzx4

[markabilly]

maybe he figured out about the carrot and the stick as in hanging the carrot in front of the donkey and that FA is the donkey

The only way FA finishes ahead of LH at the end of the season, is if LH has a serious injury or completely cuts off the hand feeding him, to the extent that mercedes says, bye bye LH we don't want someone like that winnng a wdc when we could have alonso--the PR would be much better

In another words if the cash is worth it, than RD will do it...do not expect that RD will be acting on the basis of fairness or justice.....(bs talks but money walks)

[donKey jote]

It is not a rumour, it is true. Have you seen Alonso dodging Ron in Germany GP? And he did the same thing yesterday. Why he did take Alonso's trainer to talk to him? Because he can't speak to Alonso this time.

Watch this : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=N3t1SLlMzx4

rumours, a great album but I digress...
rumours on telecinco were that it´s lewis who isn´t talking to anyone :laugh:

[F1MAN2007]

rumours, a great album but I digress...
rumours on telecinco were that it´s lewis who isn´t talking to anyone :laugh:


Of course he should be ashamed of what he has done to his team. What he has to say by the way?! Can't see it. :eek:

[tinchote]

It's funny that most people here that blames LH for not obeying team orders, surely were hoping for RB to not obey team orders at Austria 2002 :mark:

Besides, I would like someone to explain to me exactly where did LH cause damage to Alonso's qualy yesterday. Alonso did 17 laps, and LH did 17 laps. What exactly did FA lose because of LH? :confused:

[WelshLegend]

i do not understand what LH has done wrong. From what i see FA has been deliberatly slow in the pit-stop to stop LH making one last attempt of getting pole position.
If

[Kevincal]

Don't tar all us Brits with the same brush. I have watched Lewis since karting and think the guy is awesome but I am still more of an Alonso fan.


You're right, I should have said, "You are like all of the rest of the BIASED Brits..." ;)

[El Sween]

Ha ha no worries man

[Ian McC]

Right, you're like all the rest of the Brits, blindly defending your little Hammy no matter what the circumstance...lol

Well your just pi**ed because your boy got punished for doing something bad. Seems to me you're blindy defending Alonso no matter what the circumstances.

[Fallingwater]

It's funny that most people here that blames LH for not obeying team orders, surely were hoping for RB to not obey team orders at Austria 2002 :mark:

Besides, I would like someone to explain to me exactly where did LH cause damage to Alonso's qualy yesterday. Alonso did 17 laps, and LH did 17 laps. What exactly did FA lose because of LH? :confused:
Team orders that affect the outcome of the race are not the same thing as team orders regarding qualyfing in terms of a pre-planned strategy.
As for the second question, the answer is right there. Alonso was supposed to get one more fast lap on less fuel, as Hamilton had done in some of the previous races, for example Silverstone. But Hamilton wanted it again for himself. Alonso (backed by team orders) wouldn't have it. People say Hamilton even insulted RD after this event. FA didn't lose anything after those laps, because he managed to get pole position on that 17th lap.
I didn't know they had done 17 laps each, but that just proves again that Hamilton wasn't entitled to that last one he claimed and cried about. Shame on him :(
Edit: Now that I think of it, the team made a poor move by treating Hamilton's car as if he was actually going for that last lap. If Alonso left and the pit crew hadn't attended Lewis' car, Alonso would have probably not been penalized!

[wedge]

It's funny that most people here that blames LH for not obeying team orders, surely were hoping for RB to not obey team orders at Austria 2002 :mark:

Besides, I would like someone to explain to me exactly where did LH cause damage to Alonso's qualy yesterday. Alonso did 17 laps, and LH did 17 laps. What exactly did FA lose because of LH? :confused:

At the start of Q3, LH was originally told to allow FA first to head the pack but LH disobeyed team orders. FA wanted to burn off more fuel ie. lead the pack in clean air and then a light enough car to challenge pole - as does Lewis! (Pole at Hungary is just as important it is in Monaco)

LH claims that he would've let FA pass - LH had Kimi breathing down his neck and by the time LH claims he would've let FA pass, FA had backed off.

This is all circumstantial.

FA decides to dispense personal justice ie. revenge.

The whole matter could've been cleared up internally within the team eg. Australia 1998 when Hakkinen was accidently called into the pits and DC allowed Mika to re-take the lead.

That's the nature of F1. Mark Blundell mentioned the old F1 saying: Welcome to the Piranhas Club!

There are two drivers within the team they both want to win but there can be only 1 winner.

[ten-tenths]

i would be shocked if alonso continues to share data with hamilton. unless it is explicitly written into his contract that it is mandatory, alonso should close ranks and let hamilton develop his own setups from now on.

[Kevincal]

Indeed...

[wmcot]

i would be shocked if alonso continues to share data with hamilton. unless it is explicitly written into his contract that it is mandatory, alonso should close ranks and let hamilton develop his own setups from now on.

I would bet that Ron's got that covered in the contracts.

The team seems ready to explode! RD seems to have difficulty controlling what his drivers are saying to the press.

Looks like another Pironi/Villeneuve match, but let's hope this one doesn't end in tragedy.

[keysersoze]

This certainly validates in my mind Schuamcher's insistence that he get preferential treatment over Rubens, Irvine, and Massa during their respective tenures.

I would add Senna, who blocked Derek Warwick from joining Lotus, but I think in that instance it was a case of the team not having the budget to equally prepare two #1 cars.

[markabilly]

This certainly validates in my mind Schuamcher's insistence that he get preferential treatment over Rubens, Irvine, and Massa during their respective tenures.

I would add Senna, who blocked Derek Warwick from joining Lotus, but I think in that instance it was a case of the team not having the budget to equally prepare two #1 cars.


So many people have this BIG mistaken idea that MS was the number 1 driver....he was not.

When ever there was a dispute among the drivers, it would be booted up the chain of command for the principal to decide as with any team.

What is ignored, is that MS was really the team principal who was under contract to ferrari to run the team by hiring and firing the top dogs, but when convient, would pretend not to be the principal to the public, as in "I was just following orders when I passed RB....."

Much was made of Todt telling MS about what to do about this or that, and MS would always answer understood or yes, but then many a boss who has delegated authority to people he trusts, will do the same and respond the same....but the boss is still the boss..

So....Irvine or RB might have fussed at MS, but MS never ever fussed back...he did not need to...and sooner or later, those who fussed, they all went elsewhere to live happily ever after as back markers in dim obscurity :vader:

[Garry Walker]

Alonsos problem is that Hamilton is too quick, It has nothing to do where he is from, that's just a poor excuse from people looking for excuses.

Alonsos problem is that he thinks he is some chosen one, who deserves to be the focus of the team at the expense of his teammate (what happened at Renault), he overrates himself greatly.



We saw how quick he was at Silverstone, when he decided to use a different setup to Alonso. FA and KR could have pitted again and still finish nearby.
After this Hungarian GP and what Hamilton has done, Alonso is bound to be very angry. The team shouldn't have let Hamilton race today after yesterday's events. After all, they weren't going to get any WCC points. BUT, RD could never do something like that knowing what the media would do and the money at stake.
In my opinion, Alonso will try his best this year (swimming against the wind and the tides), and will probably leave McLaren unless they drastically change their attitude. The rumour that Alonso's family was forced to watch the first race with the Renault people because they weren't welcome at McLaren (unlike Hamilton's family, of course) gives you an idea of the kind of thing he's having to cope with.
Equal technical treatment? Maybe, but that's not the only way a team supports a driver and makes him feel at home. Alonso was unhappy about LH getting a last minute flying lap at Silverstone. It was Alonso's turn yesterday, and you know what happened.

total crybaby stuff, not worth commenting.


i would be shocked if alonso continues to share data with hamilton. unless it is explicitly written into his contract that it is mandatory, alonso should close ranks and let hamilton develop his own setups from now on.

Oh the spanish crybaby press reported already a few races ago that FA isnt sharing data and setups anymore, and look what happened - at hungary LH was easily faster. One less good excuse for alonso fans, seems they are actually running out of excuses.

[osg]

So many people have this BIG mistaken idea that MS was the number 1 driver....he was not.

When ever there was a dispute among the drivers, it would be booted up the chain of command for the principal to decide as with any team.

What is ignored, is that MS was really the team principal who was under contract to ferrari to run the team by hiring and firing the top dogs, but when convient, would pretend not to be the principal to the public, as in "I was just following orders when I passed RB....."

Much was made of Todt telling MS about what to do about this or that, and MS would always answer understood or yes, but then many a boss who has delegated authority to people he trusts, will do the same and respond the same....but the boss is still the boss..

So....Irvine or RB might have fussed at MS, but MS never ever fussed back...he did not need to...and sooner or later, those who fussed, they all went elsewhere to live happily ever after as back markers in dim obscurity :vader:

OMFG ........... what are you on? funniest post ever.

[Ian McC]

OMFG ........... what are you on? funniest post ever.

I wish you people would stop quoting him, I can't help myself, I have to read it! :eek:

[BDunnell]

This certainly validates in my mind Schuamcher's insistence that he get preferential treatment over Rubens, Irvine, and Massa during their respective tenures.

If that had happened at McLaren this year, they would have effectively shot themselves in the foot, by relegating the driver who has ended up being their most competitive to a supporting role.

[pits4me]

i would be shocked if alonso continues to share data with hamilton. unless it is explicitly written into his contract that it is mandatory, alonso should close ranks and let hamilton develop his own setups from now on.

Tried before. Unfortunately Alonso is as much a beneficiary of Lewis' findings as Lewis is of Alonso's. I thought that's why teams run two cars.

At the end of the day, Lewis was the faster of the two drivers this weekend.

[jso1985]

Alonsos problem is that he thinks he is some chosen one, who deserves to be the focus of the team at the expense of his teammate (what happened at Renault), he overrates himself greatly.




kinda reminds me of a 7-time WDC...

[tinchote]

I wish you people would stop quoting him, I can't help myself, I have to read it! :eek:

Yeah, it's a defect of the ignore function :s

[ten-tenths]

Tried before. Unfortunately Alonso is as much a beneficiary of Lewis' findings as Lewis is of Alonso's. I thought that's why teams run two cars.

At the end of the day, Lewis was the faster of the two drivers this weekend.

how do you figure alonso benefits just as much?

[tinchote]

how do you figure alonso benefits just as much?


Well, if LH uses FA's setup and then goes and drives faster than him, maybe FA is not as good as we were led to believe :)

[ten-tenths]

Well, if LH uses FA's setup and then goes and drives faster than him, maybe FA is not as good as we were led to believe :)

possibly, but don't you think hamilton has gotten the better end of the deal with the data sharing? maybe hamilton does not need alonso's setups now, but in the beginning it was reported he used alonso's settings for his own car. hamilton is a great driver don't get me wrong but i think alonso would not mind if they stopped sharing data.

[Valve Bounce]

I wish you people would stop quoting him, I can't help myself, I have to read it! :eek:

Me too :(
I don't know what he was smoking, but I wish he'd pass some of it around. :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah, it's a defect of the ignore function :s


Actually, instead of using the ignore function, if you just press the down arrow on your keyboard, it works just as well.

[Valve Bounce]

possibly, but don't you think hamilton has gotten the better end of the deal with the data sharing? maybe hamilton does not need alonso's setups now, but in the beginning it was reported he used alonso's settings for his own car. hamilton is a great driver don't get me wrong but i think alonso would not mind if they stopped sharing data.


Well, he ain't speaking to him anymore, so that's a start. I wouldn't be surprised if he ain't sharing his massager with him either. :p :

[ten-tenths]

Well, he ain't speaking to him anymore, so that's a start. I wouldn't be surprised if he ain't sharing his massager with him either. :p :

ha :)

[blakebeatty]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/39250/



Fernando Alonso has been discussing the possibility of returning to Renault (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/39250/#) next season after just one season at McLaren.

A source close to the Renault team told SPEEDtv.com. “It’s not a rumor, they [the Alonso camp] are desperate to come back.”

The same source added that ironically as of last weekend the Hungaroring qualifying fiasco had given Alonso a fresh reason to stay at McLaren because Lewis Hamilton was now seriously out of favor at Woking.

Renault has yet to confirm either of its drivers for next year, although its assumed that Heikki Kovalainen has done more than enough to retain his place. Flavio Briatore said in Hungary that a decision on Giancarlo Fisichella will be due around the time of Monza, but the Italian is believed to have a very slim chance of retaining his seat for another season.

On Sunday, Ron Dennis made it very clear that he was well aware of the possibility that one of his drivers might be tempted away: “There is an inevitability that these things are rumored and discussed in other teams. We have two drivers contracted for several years into the future. We will respect our part of that situation. We hope that the drivers respect theirs, because that is what a contract is about. That is our position.”

Intriguingly, when discussing the challenge of juggling two top drivers he added that “anybody” would have the choice to leave if they felt they didn’t fit in at McLaren.

“It is extremely challenging for me, emotional and stressful. I know I’m not alone in having to carry that burden, but nevertheless we will continue to function as a Grand Prix (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/39250/#) team with specific values. And if anybody does not want to be part of those values, irrespective of where they fit in the organization, then ultimately they will have choice. But we will not deviate from our values.”

[pits4me]

Alonso can believe what he wants. That doesn't make it true does it?

In identical cars Lewis has gotten the best of the two drivers on the tracks that suite his style. He yielded to his team mate in Monaco because it was too risky to pass on such a tight track. Had it been a Ferrari or Williams, Lewis would have given it a crack. Because it was the two time WDC in front of him, he had to back off.

[blakebeatty]

In identical cars Lewis has gotten the best of the two drivers on the tracks that suite his style.

The two cars are not entirely identical, nor are they prepared identically. They are tailored to each driver to suit their style of driving. Look at the winglet near the Mercedes Logo on the nose of Hamilton's car. Notice it's absence from Fernando's. This is one of a multitude of differences. I remember watching a short movie somewhere on the internet on the difference between the ridges on the top and sides of Fernando's and Lewis's rear wings

This could certainly substantiate Alonso's claims of favoritism

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/f1/2007/hun/f1-2007-hun-xp-1146.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/f1/2007/hun/f1-2007-hun-xp-1414.jpg

[keysersoze]

If that had happened at McLaren this year, they would have effectively shot themselves in the foot, by relegating the driver who has ended up being their most competitive to a supporting role.

That is a very dubious conclusion. Throwing their full weight behind Fernando does nothing but ensure harmony. The #2 can take wins when the #1 strikes trouble. McLaren would have just as many points now. No, I take that back; they'd 18 more, because we wouldn't have had the fiasco we had this past weekend.

If Alonso was falling out of races and clearly inferior to LH that's another matter altogether--but he's not.

Having said that, I'm generally not an advocate of team orders such as that.

When MS was at Ferrari, the team was almost always a jubilant, peaceful one.

[markabilly]

Yeah, it's a defect of the ignore function :s
Personal insults from you two just makes my day...and demonstrates that name calling is the only weak avenue to avoid the truth...Drink up girls. :beer: .

[markabilly]

That is a very dubious conclusion. Throwing their full weight behind Fernando does nothing but ensure harmony. The #2 can take wins when the #1 strikes trouble. McLaren would have just as many points now. No, I take that back; they'd 18 more, because we wouldn't have had the fiasco we had this past weekend.

If Alonso was falling out of races and clearly inferior to LH that's another matter altogether--but he's not.

Having said that, I'm generally not an advocate of team orders such as that.

When MS was at Ferrari, the team was almost always a jubilant, peaceful one.

Yeah because MS was the real boss behind the scenes....Brawn and Todt were there because MS wanted them.

Who was he going to argue with? Himself...and who was he gonna side with? The other driver? Not hardly

[wmcot]

Look at the winglet near the Mercedes Logo on the nose of Hamilton's car.

The "winglet" on the side of the nose of Hamilton's car is a TV camera. The FIA decide where they will be placed and they are designed to have no aerodynamic effect.

[555-04Q2]

It's funny that most people here that blames LH for not obeying team orders, surely were hoping for RB to not obey team orders at Austria 2002 :mark:

Besides, I would like someone to explain to me exactly where did LH cause damage to Alonso's qualy yesterday. Alonso did 17 laps, and LH did 17 laps. What exactly did FA lose because of LH? :confused:

I think people are refering to the incident where the team was repeatedly asking LH to move over for FA during but he ignored the teams request. All I know is, Mclaren is a seriously screwed up team at the moment.

[Mickey T]

i do not understand what LH has done wrong. From what i see FA has been deliberatly slow in the pit-stop to stop LH making one last attempt of getting pole position.
If

he was wrong because he breached an internal agreement designed, in part, to minimise the risk of just this sort of tension between drivers.

and it was an agreement he was more than happy to take advantage of at silverstone to claim pole when it worked in his favour.

when it worked against him here, he just ignored it.

it was cunning, dishonourable and sneaky. that's what he did wrong.

alonso and mclaren (though who knows what slice of the blame/credit to apportion to whom) made a move that stopped him taking advantage of it.

[Mark]

That still doesn't answer what LH did wrong? What agreement? :confused:

[ArrowsFA1]

That still doesn't answer what LH did wrong? What agreement? :confused:
Ron Dennis:

"In this situation, we are timed to when we can dispatch the car based on when the car reaches a given temperature, and then we know how long we can hold it at the pitlane. The cars are dispatched as soon as possible. In this instance, Lewis's car got up to that temperature first, so we sent Lewis, then we sent Fernando, and the fuel burn characteristics [mean that] there is a small advantage which we play from driver to driver according to the nature of the circuit. In this instance, it was Fernando's time to get the advantage of the longer fuel burn. The arrangement was, OK, we're down at the end of the pitlane, we reverse positions in the first lap. That didn't occur as arranged. That was somewhat disappointing and caused some tensions on the pitwall."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61368

Lewis Hamilton:

"When you don't obey a team order from your team boss, who has given you the opportunity, it's a difficult situation. But in the end you have to stand up for what you believe and how you feel. At the time I took that decision (to disobey the team) and that's just the way it went. The team explained it all and I apologised for the decision I took when I was out there. But I was out on my own, I apologised to Ron and said it wouldn't happen again."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61385

[Mickey T]

the agreement to allow alonso to have one extra lap of fuel burn and, therefore, the last pit stop and the last shot at pole.

this was not a novel idea. it had happened before at Silverstone and two other tracks and two times the advantage had been in hamilton's favour.

this time it was not. he didn't like it. he ignored it because he wanted the extra lap in the session and the final, lighter shot at pole. just like he had at silverstone.

these things aren't just randomly done. they have weeks of meetings to exactly plan how each race weekend will go.

hamilton - and his minders - will have sat in and had input into hours worth of meetings and then he just ignores them. he claimed raikkonen was too close, but he was qualifying, not racing, so what does that matter?

the real genius of hamilton's win wasn't in winning from pole in a car demonstrably faster than anybody else's (except alonso's), but in portraying himself as a victim of a fight he threw the first punch in.

[I am evil Homer]

LH disobeyed a team order and that is wrong. However, Alonso was told to leave the pits and he waited and was punished. They're both as culpable for this farce.

But the FIA needs to stop meddling...it has no right IMO to punish Alonso for a team mates error and his reaction. That was up to McLaren.

[F1MAN2007]

i would be shocked if alonso continues to share data with hamilton. unless it is explicitly written into his contract that it is mandatory, alonso should close ranks and let hamilton develop his own setups from now on.

That is why maybe Lewis is scared today because FA seems not to talk to him. If the team say that is giving them opportunity to challenge each other, then give them a same car on friday and let every one set up his car with his engineers and we shall see who is right. :D

MS did this last years, that is why sometimes i give credit to him.

[F1MAN2007]

.... Because it was the two time WDC in front of him, he had to back off.

So why he didn't back off in Hungrian and opted to desobey?! :rolleyes:

[F1MAN2007]

That still doesn't answer what LH did wrong? What agreement? :confused:

Just he desobeyed the team order which caused problems not only to his team mate, but to his Blood Team. If it was between drivers it would be ok, but causing problems to your team, and his action caused a loss of potential points to the team, that is what they call "gross misconduct" if we speak in terms of HR Policy. Adding this to the street langauge he used to his boss, that was so rude also as a rookie.

I thought that Team interest comes before drivers interest, but Lewis proved me wrong. :D

[leopard]

So.....making team order bluntly is something legal now, and driver disobeying it can be categorized as wrong ? :D

[ozrevhead]

Looks like another Pironi/Villeneuve match, but let's hope this one doesn't end in tragedy.
for the uneducated - what happend with Pironi/Villeneuve

[F1MAN2007]

I think it is not really a team order, but an agreement inside the team to rotate the final shot on light for pole position. Now it was the round of FA and the kid said no.

What happened is more internally to the team than it is for FIA

[markabilly]

OMFG ........... what are you on? funniest post ever.
Sorry, sometimes me forgets to drink me Kool aid like a true believer of RD and his one and only true son, LH, now boss at team reunification......

:beer:

[MAX_THRUST]

Alonso decision to mess about in the pitts was pointless!!! Literally.

FA got caught messing about, and got the team penalised. No matter what led to it, it was FA decision to mess about in the pitts, and make a small problem not uncommon in F1 into a massive row.

I don't see a problem except for the loss of 5 places and the loss of points. FA is lucky not to be shown the door I think. It could have been sorted out the next day on track if he thought he was good enough to over take at the start. Daft!!!

[truefan72]

I think it is not really a team order, but an agreement inside the team to rotate the final shot on light for pole position. Now it was the round of FA and the kid said no.

What happened is more internally to the team than it is for FIA

no matter what LH did, it really did not affect Alonso's chances to get pole position. As I see it, his opportunity to put in a fast time ( which he did) was by no means impeded by LH. All he wanted was his ego stroked to the nth degree and commplained about it. He backed off significantly in the ealry stint of Q3 and insrtead was holding up Kimi.

But what Alonso did was to impede another drivers opportunity to qualify/race by deliberetly holding him up inspitre of th team giving him the order/direction to go.

One rule is completely subjective, the other is callous. There is no evidence, anywhere that suggested that LH impeded FA's opportunity to take pole. LH was quicker all weekend and Saturday was waaay quicker than FA in both Sessions. That is really Alonso's problem not anything else. And instead of manning up to the challenge and acknowledging a competitive fight for the WDC,. he cries terribly and feels offended that his quicker temmate and WDC leader is not acquessing to him. That in itself is ridiculous.

As to the Siilverstone situation. It was not even close to a matter of team orders. It was LH driving really light in a setup designed to get pole position which ultimately cost him the race. Even LH acknowledege as much. He desperately wanted the pole and comrpomised to get it. Nothing to do with team orders.

If you want to be perfectly honest about it. FA was the benficiary of "team orders" and assumed #1 status right up after the Monaco GP. He got all the preferential fuel strategies, in Qualifying and in the race. LH was asked not to challenge FA, to the point where the FIA investigated, and so on.

It became clear to everyone that LH was quick and already worthy of equal treatment in the team. He earned his equal treatment by driving his pants off to prove his point. All Alonso has done is complain, cry and bicker about not being given preferential treatment which on its face is so ridiculous.

Why is alonso not interested in a fair fight. Perhaps he knows what we all suspect already, that LH is probably the better of the two drivers this year.

I hope the two of them stay at McClaren but if either one of them goes, either way LH will benefit. He will most certainly get snapped up by Ferrari or BMW with a mega contract and no baggage. Alonso's only option would be Renault, and even then Heikke will not take a backseat. Neither will Kubica at BMW, or Rosberg at Williams. There is no place Alonso can go waving his 2time WDC flag above him demanding absolute #1 status to the detriment of his fellow driver. The first intramural battle Alonso has experienced and he totally crumbles under the pressure. laughable.

[markabilly]

So.....making team order bluntly is something legal now, and driver disobeying it can be categorized as wrong ? :D

Good point

The problem is, like it or not, the FIA says no team orders that pre-determines the outcome of the race are legal, and now that includes "the race for the pole"

Problem is and the one ignored, is that there are various advantages in many areas, such as who pits first, who makes the last lap in qualifying and so forth.

So towards the end of the race, ordering one driver to move over to let the other driver pass him on the last corner is obvious and in theory as well as practice is deemed illegal.

Not permitting drivers to race until they wreck each other is NOT so obvious

Sitting in the pits and blocking the other driver, regardless of whether the driver (FA) did it on his own or because of the lollipop team orders (or if RD stood there in front of the car), is obvious blocking, and now clearly illegal. Both FA and team were punished because BOTH committed obvious fouls of blocking, one right after the other



Ordering one driver to pit when both are running a second or two apart, gives the same advantage to the one still on the track, as he gets to the extra fast lap on almost empty tanks with hot tires, while the first car emerges with cold tires and heavy tanks to do a much slower lap while the other is in the pits, BUT the effect of the pit order is NOT so obvious to the public

When LH got the advantage of being first in line or pitting last in the race or qualifying, that was not so obvious an advantage given by "team orders", but it has the same effect of determing the outcome of a race....

So in theory and as an ideal rule of law, the FIA rulings has been to rule that a team order is illegal if it implements an predetermined outcome. Me, I have no problem with that, although some clearly do--I say let them all race

However, due to the fact of the reality of the racing...for example, the fact that there is only ONE pit crew, means someone must pit first and the other second, there is an unavoidable advantage that someone is going to get that is identical to a team order of blocking in the pitlane or having the driver move over on the track.

But the actual effect of the FIA is to say, that thos team orders regarding pit stops and so forth, are NOT a violation---and the only thing seperating a violation and a non-violation based on actual incidents, is that one is obvious and the other not so obvious to the general public.

[ArrowsFA1]

for the uneducated - what happend with Pironi/Villeneuve
A long story cut short...Pironi joined Villeneuve at Ferrari in 1981. They got on well as team-mates until Imola 1982. There was confusion over Ferrari team orders, and when the order 'hold position' was made. Villeneuve felt Pironi 'stole' the victory from him and vowed not to speak to his team-mate from then on.

At the next GP at Zolder, Pironi was quicker in practice than Villeneuve. Villeneuve went out to try to beat his team-mate's time but collided with Jochen Mass's March and was killed.

Some argue that Pironi's actions at Imola led to what happened at Zolder.

[F1MAN2007]

But I think FA did it cleverly. I don't think that he has done it only for wining the pole position and wining the race to increase his cahnce for the title.

For me, what happened, was to send out a message to Ron Dennis and the team that the questions about his future in team still hanging there if the team don't pay extra attention to him. So Lewis not following team orders was just an occasion for FA to do what he did and send message.

Why I say it is clever? At the end it is Lewis who is in trouble now than FA is inside the team. Even if he may jump ship next season, but it will take time for Ron to come in good relationship as before with Lewis, and the team now is wrecked. And rivals teams tracking down Lewis, this doesn't help any more the team. Already his farther is in talk with the team to raise the pay and renew the contract otherwise....

[truefan72]

A long story cut short...Pironi joined Villeneuve at Ferrari in 1981. They got on well as team-mates until Imola 1982. There was confusion over Ferrari team orders, and when the order 'hold position' was made. Villeneuve felt Pironi 'stole' the victory from him and vowed not to speak to his team-mate from then on.

At the next GP at Zolder, Pironi was quicker in practice than Villeneuve. Villeneuve went out to try to beat his team-mate's time but collided with Jochen Mass's March and was killed.

Some argue that Pironi's actions at Imola led to what happened at Zolder.


yeah like 5%. Pironi wasn't steering Villeneuves' car. Yes Villenueve may have been driving with a purpose but ultimately it was his destiny in his own hands. I remember that situation and was sad, when He left this good earth.

[F1MAN2007]

no matter what LH did, it really did not affect Alonso's chances to get pole position. As I see it, his opportunity to put in a fast time ( which he did) was by no means impeded by LH. All he wanted was his ego stroked to the nth degree and commplained about it. He backed off significantly in the ealry stint of Q3 and insrtead was holding up Kimi.

But what Alonso did was to impede another drivers opportunity to qualify/race by deliberetly holding him up inspitre of th team giving him the order/direction to go.

One rule is completely subjective, the other is callous. There is no evidence, anywhere that suggested that LH impeded FA's opportunity to take pole. LH was quicker all weekend and Saturday was waaay quicker than FA in both Sessions. That is really Alonso's problem not anything else. And instead of manning up to the challenge and acknowledging a competitive fight for the WDC,. he cries terribly and feels offended that his quicker temmate and WDC leader is not acquessing to him. That in itself is ridiculous.

As to the Siilverstone situation. It was not even close to a matter of team orders. It was LH driving really light in a setup designed to get pole position which ultimately cost him the race. Even LH acknowledege as much. He desperately wanted the pole and comrpomised to get it. Nothing to do with team orders.

If you want to be perfectly honest about it. FA was the benficiary of "team orders" and assumed #1 status right up after the Monaco GP. He got all the preferential fuel strategies, in Qualifying and in the race. LH was asked not to challenge FA, to the point where the FIA investigated, and so on.

It became clear to everyone that LH was quick and already worthy of equal treatment in the team. He earned his equal treatment by driving his pants off to prove his point. All Alonso has done is complain, cry and bicker about not being given preferential treatment which on its face is so ridiculous.

Why is alonso not interested in a fair fight. Perhaps he knows what we all suspect already, that LH is probably the better of the two drivers this year.

I hope the two of them stay at McClaren but if either one of them goes, either way LH will benefit. He will most certainly get snapped up by Ferrari or BMW with a mega contract and no baggage. Alonso's only option would be Renault, and even then Heikke will not take a backseat. Neither will Kubica at BMW, or Rosberg at Williams. There is no place Alonso can go waving his 2time WDC flag above him demanding absolute #1 status to the detriment of his fellow driver. The first intramural battle Alonso has experienced and he totally crumbles under the pressure. laughable.

Don't get me wrong man.

I am not against the penalty to FA and Mclaren by the stewards. Following the regulations, it is quite clear that investigation should have been done and punishment to follow for who they think is guilt. That is what happened and no problem with this.

But let us ask ourselves another question, if Lewis would have followed what his team wanted to do, do you think this problem would have happened? I think not. It would have stayed inside the team, Lewis asking clarification about the reason why they asked him to do so (if he didn't know that before to F*** off his boss) and maybe telling them never do that next time if the were not right to ask him this.

At the end the team pay him to do what they want first but not what he wants first and then team needs after. Here is the confusion people don't understand. Team set a strategy to maximise the outcome of the race.

It was clear Mclaren was up the game and Ferrari were far away. So Lewis following the team order maybe this would have cost him pole position but no where KR was near to still him second position on grid. But the rookie knowing that FA will have last shot on pole position and capable to still it to him, he said no way to follow team instructions I am going to do it on my own whatever the incident may ccause. Then he accelerated and came to que in pit lane sending a message to stewards to investigate this. But in the spirit of the team this is inacceptable.

So Alonso knowing what was going on, where the kid didn't respect his boss, then he said himself let me do the job and blok him for the final shot even if I may start the race from the pit line after the investigation. And for him it was another occasion to send out message of what is going on inside the team. But as I said above, also this is inacceptable also in the spirit of the team even if you may have stong reasons to do so.

Who to blame? Ron Dennis. If you say that I am going to give equal equipment to my kids and compete each other equally, so don't be angry when your kids rule themselves the game and bring you problems. It is clear he is now out of control of the 2 talented and Eccentric drivers.

TIME HAS COME NOW FOR HIM TO SHOW WHO IS THE BOSS, AND AMONG THE DRIVERS WHOEVER IS NOT HAPPY, SO DOORS ARE OPEN FOR HIM.

I said this and I will say it, Ron never learned a lesson from Senna and Prost, maybe this time he will learn a little bit. Having perfect cars and perfect drivers don't think your job is easy. It is more complicated than you think.

If he said that he respects contracts, then in Alonso's contract it says that he will be the team leader (of course drivers' team). What does it mean? I don't think it is only down to the pay, but also to the support you receive. Team leader or N01 or whatever you want, for me means little advantages to the guy because at the end he has some responsabilities in developing the car with his team mate (even if some here seems not agree with this).

[markabilly]

What is more, ordring FA or LH to move over to let the other pass and win the race is a violation of the rules.

And OMG, i can not believe that me of all people is saying this, must be too much :beer: Kool aid!!!, but I guess I am defending LH when I say:

Ordering LH to move over and let FA pass so he can win the pole is just as much a violation of the rules as sitting in the pits to block out the other from taking pole

LH should be able to ignore an order made in violation of the rules without question

(now my guess is that he was not thinking about remaining a virgin or being holy by maintaining the sanctity of the holy FIA rules, he just did it cause he wanted pole)


Now this was not the intent of the rules, but the practical effect of the rules and a logical extension as to how they are being applied.

Not saying it is right, wrong, moral, immoral or whatever, just the way it is as applied in the "real world" as they say on MTV

or as Ed Sullivan used to say, that's show business..





Good point

The problem is, like it or not, the FIA says no team orders that pre-determines the outcome of the race are legal, and now that includes "the race for the pole"

Problem is and the one ignored, is that there are various advantages in many areas, such as who pits first, who makes the last lap in qualifying and so forth.

So towards the end of the race, ordering one driver to move over to let the other driver pass him on the last corner is obvious and in theory as well as practice is deemed illegal.

Not permitting drivers to race until they wreck each other is NOT so obvious

Sitting in the pits and blocking the other driver, regardless of whether the driver (FA) did it on his own or because of the lollipop team orders (or if RD stood there in front of the car), is obvious blocking, and now clearly illegal. Both FA and team were punished because BOTH committed obvious fouls of blocking, one right after the other



Ordering one driver to pit when both are running a second or two apart, gives the same advantage to the one still on the track, as he gets to the extra fast lap on almost empty tanks with hot tires, while the first car emerges with cold tires and heavy tanks to do a much slower lap while the other is in the pits, BUT the effect of the pit order is NOT so obvious to the public

When LH got the advantage of being first in line or pitting last in the race or qualifying, that was not so obvious an advantage given by "team orders", but it has the same effect of determing the outcome of a race....

So in theory and as an ideal rule of law, the FIA rulings has been to rule that a team order is illegal if it implements an predetermined outcome. Me, I have no problem with that, although some clearly do--I say let them all race

However, due to the fact of the reality of the racing...for example, the fact that there is only ONE pit crew, means someone must pit first and the other second, there is an unavoidable advantage that someone is going to get that is identical to a team order of blocking in the pitlane or having the driver move over on the track.

But the actual effect of the FIA is to say, that thos team orders regarding pit stops and so forth, are NOT a violation---and the only thing seperating a violation and a non-violation based on actual incidents, is that one is obvious and the other not so obvious to the general public.

[truefan72]

But I think FA did it cleverly. I don't think that he has done it only for wining the pole position and wining the race to increase his cahnce for the title.

For me, what happened, was to send out a message to Ron Dennis and the team that the questions about his future in team still hanging there if the team don't pay extra attention to him. So Lewis not following team orders was just an occasion for FA to do what he did and send message.

Why I say it is clever? At the end it is Lewis who is in trouble now than FA is inside the team. Even if he may jump ship next season, but it will take time for Ron to come in good relationship as before with Lewis, and the team now is wrecked. And rivals teams tracking down Lewis, this doesn't help any more the team. Already his farther is in talk with the team to raise the pay and renew the contract otherwise....


That's one long Alonso way to look at the situation and is more wishful thinking than anything else. What LH did was far less of consequence than what Alosno did. This is quite evident even before the checkered flag dropped in Q3. Such spin will earn you a high paid job in any government. ;)

[555-04Q2]

That's one long Alonso way to look at the situation and is more wishful thinking than anything else. What LH did was far less of consequence than what Alosno did. This is quite evident even before the checkered flag dropped in Q3. Such spin will earn you a high paid job in any government. ;)

What I find funny is no official FIA rule was broken by either LH or FA.

So they dont want to talk to each other anymore (people forgotten Prost/senna?) and RD is about to have a baby(hopefully he does actually retire this time).

Two F1 young guns are fighting for supremacy in F1 and McLaren and I think it is fcuking brilliant. Bring on August 25th. For once we have some character in F1 again.

people forgotten Prost/senna?

I haven't, and what always amazes me is that Ron Dennis is celebrated for his man management.

No doubt he can run a superb racing organisation, but Ron's abilities to manage his drivers wouldn't get him a job in a kindergarten.

[F1MAN2007]

Alonso vs Lewis it is not new stuation in Mclaren under Ron Dennis.

Let us have a little look in the past :


Prost v Lauda, 1984-85 : (1 year) I was a rookie in F1. No comment

Senna v Prost, 1988-89 : (1 year) very similar to Lewis and Alonso today

Hakkinen v Coulthard, 1995-2001 (6 years) maybe the longest partnerships in Mclaren

Raikkonen v Montoya, 2005-06 (1 year) : RD failed to manage both drivers and they ended jumping ship

Alonso v Lewis , 2007 (just few months!!) : My guess is that one driver or both will jump ship next year. But the high probability is now Alonso to jump first. If Stepneygate proves Mclaren guilt, then the Kid to follow.

[Roamy]

for the uneducated - what happend with Pironi/Villeneuve

Villeneuve and Pironi
Bitter dispute by Richard Seymour

Gilles Villeneuve referred to his fall-out with teammate Didier Pironi as a 'War.' Not only a measure of Villeneuve's anger - in retrospect - it is a painful insight into the heart of a man who did not have time to forgive.

Gilles Villeneuve was a rarity - a legend in his own lifetime; a man who evoked every emotion that a Grand Prix fan craves. To see him haul his often-cumbersome Ferrari around the world's racetracks, far faster than it had any right to go, was to remind you why you loved this sport so much.

We may never again see a Ferrari (or any other car) exit a corner on opposite-lock and proceed along the following straight sideways, spitting grass and dirt from the back tires at one hundred and thirty miles an hour; its engine wailing while the driver refuses to lift off the gas. It was also difficult to reconcile the sight of the tiny French-Canadian emerging from the hulking cockpit with the man who necessitated his mechanics to fit extra-large drive shafts to endure the punishment he put them through.

On the other side of the Ferrari pit in 1982 you would have found Frenchman, Didier Pironi. Other than a language, the teammates shared a friendship. Gilles liked Pironi - trusted him even. This may have been symptomatic of Gilles' openness rather than Pironi's affability. Interestingly: Gilles' wife did not share her husband's view; she thought him scheming and political.

The 1982 season began badly for all those close to the sport. A split between Formula One's two governing bodies made the pit-lane a cold place to work and very early in the campaign events would take a tragic turn for the worse.

The San Marino Grand Prix of that year took place with a depleted field. Teams affiliated to the Formula One Constructors Association boycotted the meeting and may have over-shadowed what was to take place on the track.

The record books will show that Didier Pironi won the race but reveal very little of the manner of his victory. The Ferrari's were running in second and third behind the Renault of Renee Arnoux. When the French car's engine blew, Gilles Villeneuve took over the lead with Pironi in a distant second. Those on the day who knew anything of Ferrari policy were sure - assuming neither car broke down - this would be the order in which they finished.

A nonsensical rule handed down from above meant that any driver rash enough to actually race would certainly run out of fuel several laps before the chequered flag. Had both Ferrari's been allowed to race each other the likely sight of both red cars rolling silently to a halt on the final lap would surely lead to the lynching of anyone attached to the team. 

Mindful of his fuel consumption (which had suffered during early exchanges with Arnoux) Gilles eased off considerably, allowing Pironi to close the gap - pass - and accelerate into the lead. 

Though he thought this misjudged showboating, Gilles continued to believe the race to be his. They passed and re-passed a couple of times hence before Pironi won the race, consigning a furious Villeneuve to second.

The bitterness Villeneuve felt was clear as the two men stood on the podium, not so much as casting a glance the other's way. At the risk of seeming petulant at losing: a normally approachable Villeneuve left the circuit without speaking to anyone for fear of making comments he may later regret.

Pironi and team manager Piccinini took the opportunity to claim there had been no team orders. Pre-empting Villeneuve's claim that Pironi allowed him to re-pass simply to save fuel in his slipstream they stated Villeneuve's car was suffering from an engine problem. This is something Gilles denied utterly.

On the face of it: this is a classic case of there being two sides to every story. However, Villeneuve's disgust was very real; as was his lament that maybe that year would be his last as a Ferrari driver. For those who had been present from the beginning of the love affair between driver and team, that it had come to this, was heartbreaking. Though it is doubtful Villeneuve would have ever warmed to his teammate again it is more likely he would not have felt able to drag himself from the team. Enzo Ferrari, notoriously detached from those he chose to drive his cars, had backed Gilles after the race and the unusual sentiment he felt towards him may have been what kept Gilles in Italy. Sadly, we can only speculate.

At the next meeting - in Zolder, Belgium - Gilles Villeneuve collided with a slower moving car, which sent his Ferrari No. 27 into the air and the brightest light that shone in a dark time for the sport was extinguished. The last weeks of Gilles Villeneuve's life had been stained by bitterness. He had felt hurt and cheated and it was in this state of mind that he died.

Didier Pironi looked every inch the champion for that year till he too suffered a horrendous accident at very high speed during a dangerously wet qualifying session for the German Grand Prix. What was seen as luck for surviving the crash proved to be no more than five-years grace. In 1987, Didier Pironi was killed during a powerboat race. A tragic end to a very sorry story.


[markabilly]

Villeneuve and Pironi
Bitter dispute by Richard Seymour

Gilles Villeneuve referred to his fall-out with teammate Didier Pironi as a 'War.' Not only a measure of Villeneuve's anger - in retrospect - it is a painful insight into the heart of a man who did not have time to forgive.

Gilles Villeneuve was a rarity - a legend in his own lifetime; a man who evoked every emotion that a Grand Prix fan craves. To see him haul his often-cumbersome Ferrari around the world's racetracks, far faster than it had any right to go, was to remind you why you loved this sport so much.

We may never again see a Ferrari (or any other car) exit a corner on opposite-lock and proceed along the following straight sideways, spitting grass and dirt from the back tires at one hundred and thirty miles an hour; its engine wailing while the driver refuses to lift off the gas. It was also difficult to reconcile the sight of the tiny French-Canadian emerging from the hulking cockpit with the man who necessitated his mechanics to fit extra-large drive shafts to endure the punishment he put them through.

On the other side of the Ferrari pit in 1982 you would have found Frenchman, Didier Pironi. Other than a language, the teammates shared a friendship. Gilles liked Pironi - trusted him even. This may have been symptomatic of Gilles' openness rather than Pironi's affability. Interestingly: Gilles' wife did not share her husband's view; she thought him scheming and political.

The 1982 season began badly for all those close to the sport. A split between Formula One's two governing bodies made the pit-lane a cold place to work and very early in the campaign events would take a tragic turn for the worse.

The San Marino Grand Prix of that year took place with a depleted field. Teams affiliated to the Formula One Constructors Association boycotted the meeting and may have over-shadowed what was to take place on the track.

The record books will show that Didier Pironi won the race but reveal very little of the manner of his victory. The Ferrari's were running in second and third behind the Renault of Renee Arnoux. When the French car's engine blew, Gilles Villeneuve took over the lead with Pironi in a distant second. Those on the day who knew anything of Ferrari policy were sure - assuming neither car broke down - this would be the order in which they finished.

A nonsensical rule handed down from above meant that any driver rash enough to actually race would certainly run out of fuel several laps before the chequered flag. Had both Ferrari's been allowed to race each other the likely sight of both red cars rolling silently to a halt on the final lap would surely lead to the lynching of anyone attached to the team. 

Mindful of his fuel consumption (which had suffered during early exchanges with Arnoux) Gilles eased off considerably, allowing Pironi to close the gap - pass - and accelerate into the lead. 

Though he thought this misjudged showboating, Gilles continued to believe the race to be his. They passed and re-passed a couple of times hence before Pironi won the race, consigning a furious Villeneuve to second.

The bitterness Villeneuve felt was clear as the two men stood on the podium, not so much as casting a glance the other's way. At the risk of seeming petulant at losing: a normally approachable Villeneuve left the circuit without speaking to anyone for fear of making comments he may later regret.

Pironi and team manager Piccinini took the opportunity to claim there had been no team orders. Pre-empting Villeneuve's claim that Pironi allowed him to re-pass simply to save fuel in his slipstream they stated Villeneuve's car was suffering from an engine problem. This is something Gilles denied utterly.

On the face of it: this is a classic case of there being two sides to every story. However, Villeneuve's disgust was very real; as was his lament that maybe that year would be his last as a Ferrari driver. For those who had been present from the beginning of the love affair between driver and team, that it had come to this, was heartbreaking. Though it is doubtful Villeneuve would have ever warmed to his teammate again it is more likely he would not have felt able to drag himself from the team. Enzo Ferrari, notoriously detached from those he chose to drive his cars, had backed Gilles after the race and the unusual sentiment he felt towards him may have been what kept Gilles in Italy. Sadly, we can only speculate.

At the next meeting - in Zolder, Belgium - Gilles Villeneuve collided with a slower moving car, which sent his Ferrari No. 27 into the air and the brightest light that shone in a dark time for the sport was extinguished. The last weeks of Gilles Villeneuve's life had been stained by bitterness. He had felt hurt and cheated and it was in this state of mind that he died.

Didier Pironi looked every inch the champion for that year till he too suffered a horrendous accident at very high speed during a dangerously wet qualifying session for the German Grand Prix. What was seen as luck for surviving the crash proved to be no more than five-years grace. In 1987, Didier Pironi was killed during a powerboat race. A tragic end to a very sorry story.


Good stuff brings back memories, you should have included tha part where Gilles literally banged wheels again and again in a race with Renee Arnoux(?)
During thos times there was no question of the tremedous danger of the sport or the potentially fatal consequences for a simple mistake...

[Mickey T]

Alonso vs Lewis it is not new stuation in Mclaren under Ron Dennis.

Let us have a little look in the past :


Prost v Lauda, 1984-85 : (1 year) I was a rookie in F1. No comment
.

prost was no rookie.

[Dzeidzei]

I haven't, and what always amazes me is that Ron Dennis is celebrated for his man management.

No doubt he can run a superb racing organisation, but Ron's abilities to manage his drivers wouldn't get him a job in a kindergarten.

I think youre wrong T. It seems RD is running a kindergarten at this very moment.

[Timber]

Alonso decision to mess about in the pitts was pointless!!! Literally.

FA got caught messing about, and got the team penalised. No matter what led to it, it was FA decision to mess about in the pitts, and make a small problem not uncommon in F1 into a massive row.

I don't see a problem except for the loss of 5 places and the loss of points. FA is lucky not to be shown the door I think. It could have been sorted out the next day on track if he thought he was good enough to over take at the start. Daft!!!

If Alonso leaves who LH is going to copy the car setting from ?

[Timber]

no matter what LH did, it really did not affect Alonso's chances to get pole position. As I see it, his opportunity to put in a fast time ( which he did) was by no means impeded by LH. All he wanted was his ego stroked to the nth degree and commplained about it. He backed off significantly in the ealry stint of Q3 and insrtead was holding up Kimi.

But what Alonso did was to impede another drivers opportunity to qualify/race by deliberetly holding him up inspitre of th team giving him the order/direction to go.

One rule is completely subjective, the other is callous. There is no evidence, anywhere that suggested that LH impeded FA's opportunity to take pole. LH was quicker all weekend and Saturday was waaay quicker than FA in both Sessions. That is really Alonso's problem not anything else. And instead of manning up to the challenge and acknowledging a competitive fight for the WDC,. he cries terribly and feels offended that his quicker temmate and WDC leader is not acquessing to him. That in itself is ridiculous.

As to the Siilverstone situation. It was not even close to a matter of team orders. It was LH driving really light in a setup designed to get pole position which ultimately cost him the race. Even LH acknowledege as much. He desperately wanted the pole and comrpomised to get it. Nothing to do with team orders.

If you want to be perfectly honest about it. FA was the benficiary of "team orders" and assumed #1 status right up after the Monaco GP. He got all the preferential fuel strategies, in Qualifying and in the race. LH was asked not to challenge FA, to the point where the FIA investigated, and so on.

It became clear to everyone that LH was quick and already worthy of equal treatment in the team. He earned his equal treatment by driving his pants off to prove his point. All Alonso has done is complain, cry and bicker about not being given preferential treatment which on its face is so ridiculous.

Why is alonso not interested in a fair fight. Perhaps he knows what we all suspect already, that LH is probably the better of the two drivers this year.

I hope the two of them stay at McClaren but if either one of them goes, either way LH will benefit. He will most certainly get snapped up by Ferrari or BMW with a mega contract and no baggage. Alonso's only option would be Renault, and even then Heikke will not take a backseat. Neither will Kubica at BMW, or Rosberg at Williams. There is no place Alonso can go waving his 2time WDC flag above him demanding absolute #1 status to the detriment of his fellow driver. The first intramural battle Alonso has experienced and he totally crumbles under the pressure. laughable.

the first battle , are you joking !! I remember him battling Shumi for the last 2 years and never blinked ... I think your guy Lewis is a arrogant man and he will never get along with any driver in the same team . He should be very happy to have landed a drive with MacLaren , as i recall Alonso started at Minardi .

[Ian McC]

I think your guy Lewis is a arrogant man and he will never get along with any driver in the same team .

I expect all F1 drivers are confident in their abilities, if you wish to call that arrogant then that's down to you. There isn't any evidence to say he will not get on with any driver in the same team.

[tinchote]

prost was no rookie.


And no one said so :)

[akv89]

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2645179,00.html

McLaren are reportedly so "p***ed off" with Fernando Alonso that they have told him he can leave if he wants to.

Alonso and his team-mate Lewis Hamilton suffered a complete breakdown of their relationship in Hungary this past weekend after Alonso illegally held Hamilton up in qualifying, preventing the rookie from getting pole position.

However, that only happened after Hamilton first disobeyed team orders telling him to let Alonso passed at the start of the third and final qualifying segment.

The result was that neither team-mate was talking to the other after Sunday's grand prix, which was won by Hamilton.

And now, according to The Times, McLaren are ready to say goodbye to Alonso at the end of the season.

'Fernando Alonso has been informed by Ron Dennis, the McLaren Mercedes team principal, that he can leave at the end of this season,' the newspaper reported.

"My understanding is that he's been told he can go because they're so fed up with him," a 'well-placed source' said. "Ron is just very p***ed off with both of them."

As for where Alonso will go, The Times speculates that it could be to either Ferrari, at the expense of Felipe Massa, back to Renault, he would probably replace Giancarlo Fisichella, or even to BMW.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2644979,00.html

Fernando Alonso is "desperate" to return to Renault next season, according to a source close to his former team.

The Spaniard is believed to be unhappy at the team and this weekend's breakdown in his relationship with team-mate Lewis Hamilton is just the latest cause of Alonso's displeasure.

The team-mates are refusing to talk to each other after the qualifying drama in Hungary, which saw both drivers try to upset the others chance of getting pole position.

While Hamilton refused to give way for Alonso out on track despite being told to do so by the team, Alonso held Hamilton up in the pits, putting an end to the Brit's chances of getting pole position.

Hamilton, though, did eventually the coveted slot as the race stewards penalised Alonso's five places on the grid, dropping him to P6.

The result was Hamilton won the grand prix while the media immediately started speculating on Alonso's future at McLaren.

Rumours emerged that Alonso could be returning to Renault - the team with which he won both his World titles - at the end of the year.

But, according to a source close to the Anglo/French squad, it's not a rumour - it is the truth.

"It's not a rumor, they (the Alonso camp) are desperate to come back," a source close to Renault told SpeedTV.

Alonso added fuel to the fire when he refused to commit himself to McLaren. Asked by the Spanish media if he'll see out his contract, he said: "I don't know, I don't know."

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2644315,00.html

Ferrari have reportedly been told to swoop for Lewis Hamilton by their bosses Fiat.

According to the Daily Mirror, the Italian car manufacturer want their F1 team to make a £17million raid on McLaren for the young British sensation.

Hamilton once again showed off his breathtaking talent by extending his lead in the title race with victory in Sunday's Hungarian Grand Prix.

But afterwards all the talk was of the rift between him and McLaren team-mate Fernando Alsono.

The Spaniard's future appears to be in doubt, but the Mirror claims it's Hamilton that could be the man being targeted for a move.

It claims Fiat are hoping Ferrari can capitalise on the internal strife at McLaren to lure Hamilton away to Maranello.

The British rookie is earning just £250,000 in his first season in Formula One, and the Italian giants would be happy to make him one of the world's highest-paid sportsmen.

Current Ferrari number one Kimi Raikkonen rakes in £22million per year, but Hamilton could even top that.



Looks like at least one of them will be leaving McLaren by the end of the year.

[tinchote]

The way things are looking right now, next year's McLarens will be driven by Button and De la Rosa ;) :D

[Buzz Lightyear]

If Fernando thinks that Renualt can deliver another title soon, he is sunk. Maybe its the only place that will take him. A straight swap with Heinfield would be a better move.

[Valve Bounce]

The way things are looking right now, next year's McLarens will be driven by Button and De la Rosa ;) :D

Well, why not? and Hazel will have to eat her hat. :p :
Bunsen is not a bad driver - his only problem is that he never got the chance to drive the top car in the competition of any year. I have absolutely no doubt that if bunsen landed the drive in the McLaren next week, he'd be winning races before the end of the year.

That's how good the McLaren is this year.

[markabilly]

No driver who gets this far to F1 is ever happy to be behind any driver.
Of really talented drivers around, only RB and DC seemed to be willing to assume a secondary role, DC at Maclaren and RB at Ferrari

If it were in them to be happy being a second fiddle, they would still be kart racing.

No question that JPM was a real racer until he went to Mclaren who made it clear that he just was not up to their standards (right or wrong can be argued ALL DAY long), but when it became clear to JPM he was a second...then there were all sorts of issues and Kimi getting the big butt at Indy, etc and so forth. There was a time especially after N. Hak. retired, that JPM was the only driver who passed MS on the track and would go wheel to wheel with him. Then FA came along (or perhaps he was lucky to be at Renault and renault came along)

[truefan72]

Don't get me wrong man.

But let us ask ourselves another question, if Lewis would have followed what his team wanted to do, do you think this problem would have happened? I think not. It would have stayed inside the team, Lewis asking clarification about the reason why they asked him to do so (if he didn't know that before to F*** off his boss) and maybe telling them never do that next time if the were not right to ask him this.



maybe,
Alonso's behavior has been becoming more erratic. I wouldn't have put it past him to do that. He would have complained about something else and found a way to engineer a similar incident. At which point did his trainer get to the control center. When did Alonso communucate his stalling plan with him. There is a certain element of premeditation in his actions.

All this boils to the fact that Alons cannot deal with a faster and eqaully talented driver. It really doesn't matter if it was LH, Fisi, or if Kimi had styed, he would have found a way to mess up the whole atmosphere.

[markabilly]

But driving up the price for his services with RD by offerring millions and forcing RD to match or exceed, well there is more than one way to hurt an opponent --- by forcing them to put a $40,000,000 plus kink in their budget :vader:

However, ferrari is getting to the point of they do not know what they will do next or why---so who knows, (but if I were in charge, i would be putting in a gas tank gauge for the drivers) :rolleyes:

FA should go to BMW and let one of the current drivers get borrowed by red cow or tost-berger or whatever....It might be an upgrade for both BMW and FA :s mokin:

[truefan72]

the first battle , are you joking !! I remember him battling Shumi for the last 2 years and never blinked ... I think your guy Lewis is a arrogant man and he will never get along with any driver in the same team . He should be very happy to have landed a drive with MacLaren , as i recall Alonso started at Minardi .

first of all, I SAID INTRAMURAL BATTLE, wwhich means between teamates.

Second and more importantly, everything you said perfectly describes Alonso,, an "arrogant man and he will never get along with any driver in the same team"

Ask fisi what he thinks of Alonso,
Dont' be mad that LH came into F1 with a pedigree and talent that allowed him to drive a McClaren and lead the WDC ahead of a 2 time champ Alonso. What Alonso took years to learn, LH has already. If his arrogance is evident by him answering questions honeslty and rightfully justifying his talent then I will take that. versus the Arrogance displayed by Alonso; constantly gesturing at people, running into other drivers in practice and testing, crying because he wants to be treated like a King.

please LOL

[Valve Bounce]

One must not forget that Alonso had quite a meteoric rise to fame. His qualifying of that dog of a Minardi at Albert Park in 2001 was nothing short of sensational and was a portent of things to come.
At age 22 he was the youngest driver ever to win an F1 race.
At age 24 he became the youngest driver to win a WDC, having beaten SchM who is considered by many the finest driver ever to race in F1.
Fernando followed this up with another win last year, again besting SchM.

Now, one might ask here what sort of respect should be accorded this phenomanal driver in his new team by a rookie who has never even raced an F1 car!!

Instead we have this rookie Pom who is even younger than Alonso doing better, going faster and winning races, and has his team and the Pommy press going bananas as he is leading the champ[ionship race.

This is not a recipe for the friendliest relationships, especially as Alonso claims that his younger team mate is going faster and winning arces because he is getting the car set-ups from the Champion.

Where is all this loss of face going to lead to? You tell me!!

[wmcot]

The way things are looking right now, next year's McLarens will be driven by Button and De la Rosa ;) :D

Or Speed and Albers! ;)

[wmcot]

One must not forget that Alonso had quite a meteoric rise to fame. His qualifying of that dog of a Minardi at Albert Park in 2001 was nothing short of sensational and was a portent of things to come.
At age 22 he was the youngest driver ever to win an F1 race.
At age 24 he became the youngest driver to win a WDC, having beaten SchM who is considered by many the finest driver ever to race in F1.
Fernando followed this up with another win last year, again besting SchM.

Now, one might ask here what sort of respect should be accorded this phenomanal driver in his new team by a rookie who has never even raced an F1 car!!

Instead we have this rookie Pom who is even younger than Alonso doing better, going faster and winning races, and has his team and the Pommy press going bananas as he is leading the champ[ionship race.

This is not a recipe for the friendliest relationships, especially as Alonso claims that his younger team mate is going faster and winning arces because he is getting the car set-ups from the Champion.

Where is all this loss of face going to lead to? You tell me!!

The problem is that nobody expected this situation to happen. It's never happened before. Yes, Alonso had a "meteoric" rise to the top, but the along comes Hamilton and his rise is even more "meteoric." I can't recall anything to this extent ever happening in any type of motorsport before. I'm just glad that I'm not RD trying to manage it all (and I'm not a great RD fan.)

[Valve Bounce]

I agree - Lewis Hamilton's rise is unprecedented in F1 - nothing like this has ever happened before.

Thus, I would say that it follows the guy is worth gazillions in sponsorship.

[ten-tenths]

"The tenuous relationship between McLaren team-mates Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton went beyond breaking point in Hungary.

Championship leader Hamilton admitted after winning in Budapest that the pair are now in the midst of a two-way code of silence.

Alonso told Spanish radio Cadena SER that he was astonished not only by his team-mate's outburst on the radio with Ron Dennis on Saturday but at how Hamilton actually instigated the complaint to the stewards about the delayed qualifying pit stop.

Alonso said: "We went to complain about ourselves. We were one and two in qualifying but it was one of the most surreal moments I have experienced in F1.

Hamilton, however, denied asking the stewards to investigate the matter, despite members of the press finding him in conversation with one of the FIA representatives after qualifying.

"I was downstairs and one of the stewards was there but we didn't really discuss it," he said. "

does this change things any? did hamilton tattle? maybe this was why alonso was saying noone wanted to speak to hamilton at hungary.

[Valve Bounce]

"The tenuous relationship between McLaren team-mates Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton went beyond breaking point in Hungary.

Championship leader Hamilton admitted after winning in Budapest that the pair are now in the midst of a two-way code of silence.

Alonso told Spanish radio Cadena SER that he was astonished not only by his team-mate's outburst on the radio with Ron Dennis on Saturday but at how Hamilton actually instigated the complaint to the stewards about the delayed qualifying pit stop.

Alonso said: "We went to complain about ourselves. We were one and two in qualifying but it was one of the most surreal moments I have experienced in F1.

Hamilton, however, denied asking the stewards to investigate the matter, despite members of the press finding him in conversation with one of the FIA representatives after qualifying.

"I was downstairs and one of the stewards was there but we didn't really discuss it," he said. "

does this change things any? did hamilton tattle? maybe this was why alonso was saying noone wanted to speak to hamilton at hungary.

If this is true, and if Ron Dennis knows it, then Hamilton's future at Mclaren will be frosty and rocky.

[F1MAN2007]

maybe,
At which point did his trainer get to the control center. .

At which point Anthony Hamilton is everywhere in the paddock (garage, control center, in the crane, TV, etc.) :D


When did Alonso communucate his stalling plan with him. There is a certain element of premeditation in his actions..

If you believe on this, that means that you belive also is Anthony who called the stewards to investigate what happened while stewards were saying it was "legal incident" :D


All this boils to the fact that Alons cannot deal with a faster and eqaully talented driver. ..

He has done so in last 2 years where he has beaten Schumacher with M not R who is considered as a legend in this sport. So I don't know another proof you want. :eek:



It really doesn't matter if it was LH, Fisi, or if Kimi had styed, he would have found a way to mess up the whole atmosphere.

And Lewis doing better F**** off his boss. I am wondering what gonna happen soon? :D

[DonnieDarco]

It doesn't necessarily follow that anyone actually needed to call in the stewards. They do have eyes, they did obviously watch the whole thing unfold live on TV like the rest of us :D

I would also point out that it could have been any team along the pitlane who called them in. They all do it!

[F1MAN2007]

Now report from Spanish media are saying that FA may quit even before the end of this season.

"We are now able to say that Alonso doesn't want to spend a minute longer at McLaren," claimed the Spanish sports daily AS. "Not only does he want to race for someone else in 2008, the situation is so bad that he is considering ending the current championship with another team.

"When a driver loses confidence in his team there is no way back. This is what has happened with Alonso, who even suspects that he's being sabotaged within the team."

Read more : http://sport.independent.co.uk/motor_racing/article2843913.ece

But read it with caution as someone here said that we should ignore completely all sites with the URL ending by ".uk"

[Flat.tyres]

Now report from Spanish media are saying that FA may quit even before the end of this season.

"We are now able to say that Alonso doesn't want to spend a minute longer at McLaren," claimed the Spanish sports daily AS. "Not only does he want to race for someone else in 2008, the situation is so bad that he is considering ending the current championship with another team.

"When a driver loses confidence in his team there is no way back. This is what has happened with Alonso, who even suspects that he's being sabotaged within the team."

Read more : http://sport.independent.co.uk/motor_racing/article2843913.ece

But read it with caution as someone here said that we should ignore completely all sites with the URL ending by ".uk"

theres no point commenting about rumours like this but the only face saving action Alonso can take it to jump or get beaten :D

does anyone actually believe that McLaren would risk the WCC????

[555-04Q2]

RD was a fool to believe that giving a rookie the same back-up as a 2 X WDC would not become a problem. You have to have a number 1 and a number 2 driver. Thats what works in F1. RD has only himself to blame. He needs to loosen up and accept the crap he instigated thanks to his stupid policies.

[Flat.tyres]

RD was a fool to believe that giving a rookie the same back-up as a 2 X WDC would not become a problem. You have to have a number 1 and a number 2 driver. Thats what works in F1. RD has only himself to blame. He needs to loosen up and accept the crap he instigated thanks to his stupid policies.

Ron has always liked to have it fought out on the track and I think you have to respect his ethos. better to have a real fight than an orchastrated championship.

[F1MAN2007]

Ron has always liked to have it fought out on the track and I think you have to respect his ethos. better to have a real fight than an orchastrated championship.


That is why he never ran more than 1 year for a contract between him and his drivers since the time of Lauda. The only longer contact he had is the one in the time of DC and H. Because one of them were willing to play the dog, but this one, it will be hardly to last at least a year. :D

Something more for his Character building..... before he retires!! :D

[F1MAN2007]

RD was a fool to believe that giving a rookie the same back-up as a 2 X WDC would not become a problem. You have to have a number 1 and a number 2 driver. Thats what works in F1. RD has only himself to blame. He needs to loosen up and accept the crap he instigated thanks to his stupid policies.

Can't say it better!! :beer:

[rohanweb]

Alonsos problem is that Hamilton is too quick, It has nothing to do where he is from, that's just a poor excuse from people looking for excuses.


everyone on and off the paddock knows the above including Alonso himself.

Well said Ian..

Lewis is just too quick for Fernando & he will get atleast half a second quicker than him each year.... so whens FA retires from the sport?

heheheh