Alonso stripped of Pole

[s12impreza]

It has been confirmed Alonso has lost pole for blocking Lewis Hamilton He will now start 5 places down the grid and Mclaren can not score Manufatuers points

[Kevincal]

To hell with the FIA if it's true but...link please? I did a seach and see nothing of the matter...

[Erki]

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~152431.htm here you go.

Cool, controversy here, controversy there, controversy is absolutely everywhere. :D Good night, kids. :)

[markabilly]

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~152431.htm here you go.

Cool, controversy here, controversy there, controversy is absolutely everywhere. :D Good night, kids. :)
The penalty on the manufacturere must have something to do with the games being played by the team in trying to screw over FA--you know, hold him out and lose fuel lap credits, amke his car heaveier to keep his lap times down...Hahahaha :monkeedan :monkeedan :monkeedan

[pdalbey]

I personally feel that this penalty is kind of dumb. I really don't follow F1 and just happened to be watching when it happened. My personal feeling is that EVERY driver had 7 minutes (I think) iin the Q3 session. Hamilton had plenty of time to turn a faster lap. Just because he waited until the final minute or so doesn't mean that he is guaranteed that lap. I understand the strategy behind the qualifying but sometimes things just don't work out perfectly. In this case, it didn't. Get over it, move on, and just start 2nd.

[raikk]

It has been confirmed Alonso has lost pole for blocking Lewis Hamilton He will now start 5 places down the grid and Mclaren can not score Manufatuers points

will they be able to score drivers points at least? like if Hamilton say finishes first does he get 10 points? or do they all get taken away depite hime winning? All that tells me anyway is that Mclaren doesnt get Constructors points...

[F1MAN2007]

will they be able to score drivers points at least? like if Hamilton say finishes first does he get 10 points? or do they all get taken away depite hime winning? All that tells me anyway is that Mclaren doesnt get Constructors points...

I think drivers will get their points but Mclaren not. Otherwise I don't see the reason the drivers should race tomorrow if no point for them?! :D

[tinchote]

I personally feel that this penalty is kind of dumb. I really don't follow F1 and just happened to be watching when it happened. My personal feeling is that EVERY driver had 7 minutes (I think) iin the Q3 session. Hamilton had plenty of time to turn a faster lap. Just because he waited until the final minute or so doesn't mean that he is guaranteed that lap. I understand the strategy behind the qualifying but sometimes things just don't work out perfectly. In this case, it didn't. Get over it, move on, and just start 2nd.


The drivers are forced to start Q3 with a lot of fuel (the amount they'll use in the first stint in the race), and so it is obvious that the best time will be achieved at the end of the session. One lap worth of fuel in F1 could account for as much as 1/3 sec. So, that means that 7 minutes before the end of the session the car will be a full second slower than at the end of it. That's good enough reason to set the time at the end.

[pdalbey]

The drivers are forced to start Q3 with a lot of fuel (the amount they'll use in the first stint in the race), and so it is obvious that the best time will be achieved at the end of the session. One lap worth of fuel in F1 could account for as much as 1/3 sec. So, that means that 7 minutes before the end of the session the car will be a full second slower than at the end of it. That's good enough reason to set the time at the end.
That makes sense. Thank you for pointing that out. Has F1 every looked at having seperate pit stall for each car rather than one for each team?

[tinchote]

That makes sense. Thank you for pointing that out. Has F1 every looked at having seperate pit stall for each car rather than one for each team?

Not really. The pit stops during qualifying are something completely new, with the new format that is only from last year.

It would still make sense to have the ability to stop both cars at the same time during the race. But there are two logistics problem, at least: first, because you need space for the car to turn into the stall and out, boxes would probably need to be more spaced than they currently are; second - and more imporant - the teams are using these days more than 20 persons per car per stop: they would need to double that amount to serve two cars. Even with all the money involved in the sport, taking 20/30 more persons and the corresponding equipment all around the world is quite a cost.

[raikk]

I think drivers will get their points but Mclaren not. Otherwise I don't see the reason the drivers should race tomorrow if no point for them?! :D

ya thats what I was thinking lol

[billiaml]

I think drivers will get their points but Mclaren not. Otherwise I don't see the reason the drivers should race tomorrow if no point for them?! :D

but, even if they can't earn points, can't they prevent the other teams from earning them by finishing in what would otherwise be a points-earning position?

[F1MAN2007]

but, even if they can't earn points, can't they prevent the other teams from earning them by finishing in what would otherwise be a points-earning position?

This can't happen. If Mclaren and Drivers don't score points that would be a pure exclusion. But this is not the case.

[markabilly]

No it said constructor points not driver points

[Kevincal]

Someone please tell me why THE OFFICIAL F1 WEBSITE has NOTHING about this???????????????????????????????????!

[tinchote]

Someone please tell me why THE OFFICIAL F1 WEBSITE has NOTHING about this???????????????????????????????????!

Good question. I guess they have someone set to update the web page sometime after the qualy, and then leave it until Sunday. Being the official site, this doesn't reflect very well on them.

[markabilly]

The full transcript of their decision is as follows:

During the final minutes of qualifying, the car driven by Fernando Alonso remained in its pit stop position at the completion of his pit stop notwithstanding the fact that his teammate Lewis Hamilton was waiting immediately behind him to commence his own pit stop. The delay prevented Hamilton from being able to complete his final flying lap of qualifying.

The Team Principal, together with the team manager and both drivers were called before the Stewards and asked to explain their actions. Reference was made to video and audio evidence. The facts and the explanation given by the team are as follows:

At the commencement of the third period of the qualifying practice it had been agreed within the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes Team ("The Team") that Fernando Alonso would leave the pit exit ahead of Lewis Hamilton in order to benefit from the possibility for purposes of fuel burn allowance of being able to complete an additional lap.

In the event, the car driven by Lewis Hamilton arrived at the pit exit before that of Fernando Alonso and when the pit lane opened he left in front of Alonso. The team required Hamilton by radio communication to allow Alonso to pass in order that he might endeavour to complete his extra lap. Because of the proximity of the Ferrari driven by Kimi Raikkonen, however, Hamilton declined to allow Alonso to pass despite repeated requests from the team to do so.

Reference to the radio communications passing between the team and its two drivers shows that the team told Hamilton at 14:56:44 to "box this lap" and required him to do a "hard in lap" but advised him some 32 seconds later to "slow the pace a little, just lose a couple of seconds before the end of the lap because Fernando is pitting in front of you."

At 14:57:34, just 18 seconds later Alonso was told that when he pitted "we are going to hold you for 20 seconds."

At 14:57:46 Alonso's car arrived at his pit stop position, his tires were changed and the jacks removed just 6 seconds later. The car then remained in position from 14:57:52 to 14:58:12 when the signal known as the "lollipop" was raised indicating that the driver was free to leave.

By this time Hamilton's car had arrived and stopped immediately behind that of Alonso. Alonso, instead of leaving his pit in order that his team-mate Hamilton could complete his pit stop, remained in position for a further 10 seconds. He then left the pit lane in sufficient time to reach the Control Line before the end of qualifying, completed a flying lap in which he set the fastest time and secured pole position.

Because of the delay caused by Alonso, Hamilton was unable to complete his pit stop in time sufficient to enable him also to complete a flying lap.

The team were asked to explain why having indicated to Hamilton that he must stop at his pit on the next lap, they then informed Alonso whilst he was still on the track that when he also pitted on the next lap he would be held for 20 seconds.

The team stated that they frequently give estimates as to duration of pit stop to their drivers before they pit and that the reason the car was in fact held for 20 seconds was that it was being counted down prior to release at a beneficial time regard being given to other cars on the track.

Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tires had been fitted to his car. When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20 second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him.

Reference to the circuit map shows that at the time Alonso was told he would be held for 20 seconds there were but 4 cars on the circuit, his own and those of Fisichella, Hamilton and Raikkonen. All but Raikkonen entered the pits such that there can have been no necessity to keep Alonso in the pits for 20 seconds waiting for a convenient gap in traffic in which to leave.

The explanation given by Alonso as to why at the expiration of the 20 second period he remained in his pit stop position for a further 10 seconds is not accepted. The Stewards find that he unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of 5 grid positions.

The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tire change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted.

The actions of the team in the final minutes of Qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally. The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula One Constructors Championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix will be withdrawn.

[Kevincal]

Too bad it's not gonna rain again... :P

[kalasend]

Did anybody notice during the first pit stop of Q3, Alonso was looking the pit box, holding finger (apparently conversing with some very serious tone on the radio)? I wonder if that was the start of all this mess...

[V12]

In all this mess, the one thing that stands out like a sore thumb for me, is not the conduct of McLaren, Alonso or Hamilton, but how bloody ridiculous F1's qualifying procedure is - they need to ditch all this fuel burn rubbish, let the cars qualify how they used to, let the cars run as little fuel as they have to and let the drivers have at it.

As far as I remember the justification for the whole qualify with race fuel thing was to mix the grids up after that boring 2002 season, before the start of the 2003 season there was talk of Minardis being on the front row and pitting at the end of the first and second lap and stuff like that...but in reality all teams tend to follow a similar (i.e. the optimal for the race) fuel strategy so the grids are the same as they would be with low fuel, so what IS the point??

[Kevincal]

I agree the qualifying system sucks... I just fast forward to the last few minutes of Q3 anymore...The rest is just boring nonsense... And screw the FIA and screw Hamilton...Give them hell in the first turn Fernando...

[Valve Bounce]

and screw Fernando while you are at it.

[donKey jote]

yep, and the mother que les parió :D

[Pack Rat]

Three things are curious.

First, why did Alonso's car get the prime tire and not the option on that last stop? Wouldn't it make sense for him to ask why they put those tires on? How is this not a valid question? If they did put the wrong tires on, they could have corrected this during the same stop. If he had continued on in the pit lane, as the stewards suggest he should have done, this error could not have been corrected.

Second, if the race stewards had access to radio transmissions, they would know if McLaren gave Alonso a 20-second countdown. Nowhere do they deny that the countdown occured, so we have to assume that it did happen. How is this not a valid decision by McLaren? Maybe the team was stupid, but how can they not be valid? Does this mean that in the future, teams and drivers can be punished for "unnecessary countdowns?" Seems like a dangerous precedent by the race stewards to me.

Third, how can McLaren be punished for holding up another driver in qualifying when that victim drives for the team itself? McLaren were actually found guilty of impeding the progress of their own driver. Why doesn't Spyker get penalized every race for having terrible cars? This certainly impedes the progress of Sutil, at least. Or how about Ferrari flubbing up Massa in Q2--maybe they should get penalized. In a race situation, I can see where a team might try to manipulate the results. But in qualifying however unlikely as it may seem, McLaren could not know if Kimi or Heidfeld were going pip their drivers on the last flying lap. They needed to go all out with both drivers. It was not in their interests to deny Hamilton. Certainly not beyond common sense.

My only hope is that Heidfeld wins tomorrow and both McLarens retire out of the points. This controversy is really strange and needs to go away.

[donKey jote]

Pack Rat,McLaren got done for lying about the 20 sec (i.e. bringing the sport into disrepute bla bla), Alonso got done for lying about the extra 10 sec he waited (i.e. being a donkey and not trusting Ron to sort things out) :)

[Ian McC]

Did anybody notice during the first pit stop of Q3, Alonso was looking the pit box, holding finger (apparently conversing with some very serious tone on the radio)? I wonder if that was the start of all this mess...

From what they said it may well have been to do with Hamilton not pulling over as requested.

[Pack Rat]

Pack Rat,McLaren got done for lying about the 20 sec (i.e. bringing the sport into disrepute bla bla), Alonso got done for lying about the extra 10 sec he waited (i.e. being a donkey and not trusting Ron to sort things out) :)

So are you saying that the countdown never ocurred and that Alonso never asked about the primes? They would be lying if these words were not spoken over the radio. Nowhere in the stewards ruling did they say that these communications did not occur. Given the explanation of the ruling, the smoking gun is in the communications. For transparency, the radio chatter needs to be made publicly available for the 30 seconds in question.

[donKey jote]

eh?
I'm saying the countdowns did occur :confused:
Can I not write English anymore or can´t you read it :p :
What´s that about primes? [edit: oh prime tyres... no, i´m not sure he did ask about them :) ]

[Pack Rat]

eh?
I'm saying the countdowns did occur :confused:
Can I not write English anymore or can´t you read it :p :
What´s that about primes?

The primes are the "regular" tire and the options are the softer tire with more grip. Usually, the option tire is better for qualifying. On the final Q3 pit stops, Alonso was fitted with the prime tires, and Hamilton was fitted with the option tires.

If the countdown did occur and Alonso did ask over the radio if the wrong tires were fitted to his car, then they were not lying about it. This is their explanation given in the stewards report. But I suppose is does reflect poorly on the sport.

[Fallingwater]

In any case, it's clear FIA doesn't like Alonso at all.
The fact that he's not been demoted to the back of the grid means they just speculated about how the percentage of fault divides between Alonso and his engineer's orders. They don't know if he's fully guilty or fully innocent, so they just take a guess and make the decision.
The fact that one of the three stewards was involved in Fernando's penalty in Hungary 2006 and Monza 2006 has of course nothing to do with it.

[donKey jote]

@packrat
I´m not sure he did ask about them... unfortunately I didn´t hear him :)
The FIA stewards, with access to the radio, apparently didn´t hear him either, or else I can´t really see how they could penalise him..

[Buzz Lightyear]

Alonso has lost all credability. His head has been soo far up his ass for the past two seasons, and he has himself convinced he is the best driver of all time.. He only plays a team game when it benefits him. Even his cool exterior cannot disguise his almost hatred of Lewis, the baby faced assassin.

Q3 fuel burn, extra lap, this and that...The fact of the matter is, he delibrately held up another driver.

Just becuase that driver is within the same team, does not, and should not, shelter him from FIA punishment.

Alonso appeared to be adhering to the pit signals of his spanish physio? Since when did a physio dictate pit strategy. Ron was very quick to catch on what was happening, and collered the physio on the way to the drivers weigh bridge..

[donKey jote]

They don't know if he's fully guilty or fully innocent, so they just take a guess and make the decision.

the decision is weird, either penalise properly (back of Q3 or back of grid) or don´t at all.

[Fallingwater]

The fact of the matter is, he delibrately held up another driverThe fact is, we don't know that for sure. He should be in the back of the grid in that case.
It's obvious a driver fighting for the WDC will play a team game when it benefits him. You don't need to be a genious to figure that out if they are current rivals for the title.
But it's true he's unhappy with the team. After all, they celebrate Hamilton's achievements in a very different way because "he has McLaren in his blood".

[Pack Rat]

Alonso has lost all credability. He head has been soo far up his ass for the past two seasons, and he has himself convinced he is the best driver of all time.. He only plays a team game when it benefits him. Even his cool exterior cannot disguise his almost hatred of Lewis, the baby faced assassin.

Q3 fuel burn, extra lap, this and that...The fact of the matter is, he delibrately held up another driver.

Just becuase that driver is within the same team, does not, and should not, shelter him from FIA punishment.

Yes, if Alonso was lying about communications, then he was impeding Hamilton--that cannot be disputed, but only if he was lying. Yet, hand-in-hand is the ruling that McLaren likewise impeded Hamilton. How does that make sense?

[Buzz Lightyear]

McLaren likewise impeded Hamilton. How does that make sense?

I thought that as well. But I assume when they refer to the team, it ultimately means Alonso's engineer, with whom I expected there is a big inter team battle as well!

That then raises the point that Alonso's engineer/pit stratgist knew EXACTLY what the implications of Lewis waiting for 20 seconds would be, especially when the FIA statement states that he had ample clear track, so didnt need to be held.

[Fallingwater]

Which again turns us to Alonso's statements saying that his engineer's decision almost cost him his last lap and was too risky. How does that fit into the story? It's unlikely Alonso knew exactly what the risk was. There was too much at stake since LH had P1 at that time. We might just never know.

[Valve Bounce]

Three things are curious.

First, why did Alonso's car get the prime tire and not the option on that last stop? Wouldn't it make sense for him to ask why they put those tires on? How is this not a valid question? If they did put the wrong tires on, they could have corrected this during the same stop. If he had continued on in the pit lane, as the stewards suggest he should have done, this error could not have been corrected.

Second, if the race stewards had access to radio transmissions, they would know if McLaren gave Alonso a 20-second countdown. Nowhere do they deny that the countdown occured, so we have to assume that it did happen. How is this not a valid decision by McLaren? Maybe the team was stupid, but how can they not be valid? Does this mean that in the future, teams and drivers can be punished for "unnecessary countdowns?" Seems like a dangerous precedent by the race stewards to me.

Third, how can McLaren be punished for holding up another driver in qualifying when that victim drives for the team itself? McLaren were actually found guilty of impeding the progress of their own driver. Why doesn't Spyker get penalized every race for having terrible cars? This certainly impedes the progress of Sutil, at least. Or how about Ferrari flubbing up Massa in Q2--maybe they should get penalized. In a race situation, I can see where a team might try to manipulate the results. But in qualifying however unlikely as it may seem, McLaren could not know if Kimi or Heidfeld were going pip their drivers on the last flying lap. They needed to go all out with both drivers. It was not in their interests to deny Hamilton. Certainly not beyond common sense.

My only hope is that Heidfeld wins tomorrow and both McLarens retire out of the points. This controversy is really strange and needs to go away.

For goodness sake - read the FIA release and try to digest it. Basically, Alonso remained in his pit for 10 seconds after the 20 second countdown, the extra 10 seconds being counted for him by his trainer.

Then Ron Dennis and Alonso came out with a bunch of weak lies which the FIA Stewards didn't swallow, as the radio transmissions and the video didn't support.

How difficult is this for you to comprehend? :rolleyes:

[SENNA1!]

i

[SENNA1!]

i agree many decisions this year have been strange - reninds me of the Senna / prost years. Alonso must be very unhappy this year

[Valve Bounce]

i

Well, that is innovative!

[A Scotsman]

If I was FA I think I'd be on a plane this morning.

[Valve Bounce]

If I was FA I think I'd be on a plane this morning.

I don't think that Fernando is a quitter.

[SENNA1!]

sorry new to this - I just hope Alonso drives the pants off all - heres hoping

[Ian McC]

If I was FA I think I'd be on a plane this morning.

Ron may be wishing the same now.

[SENNA1!]

Ron I think has a conflict of interest at the moment

[donKey jote]

the extra 10 seconds being counted for him by his trainer.

allegedly :bounce: :p :
so put the trainer 10 places back on the pit lane for the race :D

[Buzz Lightyear]

Ron I think has a conflict of interest at the moment

I think Ron has a conflict.... full stop!

[A Scotsman]

I don't think that Fernando is a quitter.

Maybe not but if as it now seems this was at least in part the team's doing then being penalised in favour of LH when he had also previously ignored team orders seems pretty harsh.

Of course - the big winners from this are Ferrari...

[SENNA1!]

ferrari has been the BIG winners for years - FIA has watched their back for a long time - LH needs to pull his head in and FA needs to clam down a bit and get back to racing - which he does best.

[Daika]

Maybe not but if as it now seems this was at least in part the team's doing then being penalised in favour of LH when he had also previously ignored team orders seems pretty harsh.

Of course - the big winners from this are Ferrari...

The other 10 teams including ferrari can't help that mclaren chopped their own legs.

[TMorel]

So Lewis and Fernando are both human, both get involved in the tit-for-tat retaliations
"he started it"
"well he did it last"
"I was just getting you back for last time"
As much as I dislike Alonso, I don't have any more of a problem with him at the moment than I do with Hamilton. They both need their heads knocking together and the "trainer" should be sent to the naughtystep for the rest of the weekend.

Ron's tried to manage the situation and from my armchair-expert viewpoint up here in my ivory tower that's just made it worse so I think he should take the reins off, give each driver all the others data (and maybe fax a copy to Maranello just to even the score up) and then let them go for it, no holds barred. If they take each other off on the first corner every race then so be it, at least things will be settled on the track.

The sooner things get back to the good old days and we can start moaning about Ferrari again the better.

[Fallingwater]

One question though. Which rule about the qualyfication did Alonso exactly break?
Is there a rule that clearly states LH needs to make a certain amount of laps in Q3 or is that for the team to decide?
Everyone is giving for granted that Lewis HAD to have a last lap, even though the team states otherwise.
At the moment the event took place, Hamilton was on pole, not Alonso. Which means that they didn't deny Lewis the chance to beat Alonso, they just allowed Alonso a chance to beat Lewis, due to the fact that is was Alonso's turn to have that last lap. I wonder why Alonso didn't go cry at FIA when Hamilton was given the chance to make an extra lap in Silverstone.
If anyone can explain these things I'd appreciate it.

[ATF]

but, even if they can't earn points, can't they prevent the other teams from earning them by finishing in what would otherwise be a points-earning position?

A very good point raised - if Ferrari finished 3-4 behind a McLaren 1-2, would they get 11 points...or inherit 18?!

[XR8]

The five place penalty is curious! Isnt the standard penalty ten places?

[THE_LIBERATOR]

The five place penalty is curious! Isnt the standard penalty ten places?It is

I assume they deleted his fastest lap? They don't say.

[RaikkonenRules]

Alonso will start 6th then. Now he'll probaly take out Kimi just to really f*** me off :p :

[donKey jote]

according to telecinco Lewis isn´t talking to anyone in the team :laugh:
Ron needs to reign them both in quick or he´ll end up with none of them next year :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[donKey jote]

It is

I assume they deleted his fastest lap? They don't say.
5 places seems to be the standard for this race... Fisi got them too :)

[Hawkmoon]

One question though. Which rule about the qualyfication did Alonso exactly break?
Is there a rule that clearly states LH needs to make a certain amount of laps in Q3 or is that for the team to decide?
Everyone is giving for granted that Lewis HAD to have a last lap, even though the team states otherwise.
At the moment the event took place, Hamilton was on pole, not Alonso. Which means that they didn't deny Lewis the chance to beat Alonso, they just allowed Alonso a chance to beat Lewis, due to the fact that is was Alonso's turn to have that last lap. I wonder why Alonso didn't go cry at FIA when Hamilton was given the chance to make an extra lap in Silverstone.
If anyone can explain these things I'd appreciate it.

That would be Article 151 of the Sporting Code. You know, the one that McLaren were charged with breaching in the Stepney-gate affair. It's got something to do with "bringing the sport into disrepute" and all that. ;)

[Priorat]

All these problems seems to me that come because todays drivers leave the school too early so they haven't enough maturity, policy and culture.
Ron needs urgently a babysitter.

[Fallingwater]

So a certain race and fuel strategy can be considered a cause of disrepute if one driver isn't happy about the way the team was forced to carry it out?
On the other hand, if Hamilton wasn't supposed to make one last lap, why wasn't his car pulled into the garage instead of waiting for Alonso?
Nothing makes sense.

[Valve Bounce]

Ron may be wishing the same now.

I think Ron just frogged marched Alonso's trainer to the airport and put him on a plane to Zimbabwe with a one way ticket :p :.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe not but if as it now seems this was at least in part the team's doing then being penalised in favour of LH when he had also previously ignored team orders seems pretty harsh.

Of course - the big winners from this are Ferrari...

My gut feeling here is that the whole blocking thing was between Alonso and his personal trainer/boy friend.

I feel that Ron Dennis was just trying to put a spin on the whole thing with a convoluted story. Basically the guy made no sense at all.

[Roamy]

WOw Valve I didn't know Alonso was gay - Sure glad that I am rooting for Rak.

[Valve Bounce]

WOw Valve I didn't know Alonso was gay - Sure glad that I am rooting for Rak.

Who did you think he was counting on?

[markabilly]

So a certain race and fuel strategy can be considered a cause of disrepute if one driver isn't happy about the way the team was forced to carry it out?
On the other hand, if Hamilton wasn't supposed to make one last lap, why wasn't his car pulled into the garage instead of waiting for Alonso?
Nothing makes sense.




According to The Times, Hamilton stormed up to Dennis saying: "Don't ever f****** do that to me again!"

Dennis replied with: "Don't ever f****** speak to me like that again!"

To which Hamilton said: "Go f****** swivel!"


So RD should now clearly know better than F...with him...imagine RD pulling him into the garage...oh wow, and just what makes you think he would have gone??


Besides, the deal was clearly done to placate FA...there is no way that RD throws away his investment in LH, the one with "maclareunt in his blood" in favor of the "recycled one" as well as the chance for eternal glory of having him win a rookie Brit WDC in a Brit Maclarenut...but he just has not been drinking his koolaid....shame shame for running his mouth and NOT his brain


Now go drink some RD koolaid, you will feel much better :beer:

[Fallingwater]

The problem is, an unhappy Alonso can mean serious trouble for the team, both in terms of car development and sponsors. RD will eventually have to choose.

[usa]

Every year maFIA invents two new rules and always they go to the detriment of Alonso. Too many chance.

[Hendersen]

Does anyone know if this the first time someone has been punished, within the same team, for impeding such as this?? Somehow I doubt it, especially since this kind of qualifying is rather new.

[usa]

My gut feeling here is that the whole blocking thing was between Alonso and his personal trainer/boy friend.

I feel that Ron Dennis was just trying to put a spin on the whole thing with a convoluted story. Basically the guy made no sense at all.
Your you are absolutely gay and get angry of not being able to be alonso's manager

[F1MAN2007]

The problem is, an unhappy Alonso can mean serious trouble for the team, both in terms of car development and sponsors. RD will eventually have to choose.


According to the various interviews, it seems that now Alonso is the one who are laughing because the Team is in pit whith his idol. :D

"The situation has changed a lot from one race to another. I don't have any problems, it's the team who have the biggest one." (Alonso)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61383

and Lewis :

"I am in a lot of trouble with my boss," Hamilton told ITV. "I probably am, but that's the way it goes."

The reason why he is arrogant :

"When you don't obey a team order from your team boss, who has given you the opportunity, it's a difficult situation." :arrows:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61385

[markabilly]

The problem is, an unhappy Alonso can mean serious trouble for the team, both in terms of car development and sponsors. RD will eventually have to choose.

If they played it out in the open, then it would look like team orders and so forth in favor of LH well now ooopps, can not have that..FIA might ban, and it would be VERY bad PR for mercedes and so forth

ANd you can not tell motormouthH the real plan as he can not keep his trap shut.....
Example:According to The Times, Hamilton stormed up to Dennis saying: "Don't ever f****** do that to me again!"

Dennis replied with: "Don't ever f****** speak to me like that again!"

To which Hamilton said: "Go f****** swivel!"
what an ingrate!!!


The game is called "carrott and the stick"


This deal was clearly done to placate FA as a result of Silverstone...there is all that money from the constructor's championship, and imagine if FA decided to do a Massa, do some sabbitical driving at the back of the field for a few races, unable to pass the great Sato in his recycled honda, for lap after lap....and then Maclarenut slides to third or worse in the CC, no matter how many points and wins by Hamilton....well duuuuhhhh, ther goes thos $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Got to keep FA tricked into thinking that he still has a chance.....and you can not have someone with his history of TWO consecutive WDC against MS, when FA's teamates were mid-field runners....might be a little reason to investigate...


RD wants to have his cake and eat it TOO

There is no way that RD throws away his investment in LH, the one with "maclareunt in his blood" in favor of the "recycled one" as well as the chance for eternal glory of having him win a rookie Brit WDC in a Brit Maclarenut...but he just has not been drinking his koolaid....shame shame for running his mouth and NOT his brain


Now everyone needs to go drink some RD koolaid, everyone will feel much better :beer:

[Pack Rat]

For goodness sake - read the FIA release and try to digest it. Basically, Alonso remained in his pit for 10 seconds after the 20 second countdown, the extra 10 seconds being counted for him by his trainer.

Then Ron Dennis and Alonso came out with a bunch of weak lies which the FIA Stewards didn't swallow, as the radio transmissions and the video didn't support.

How difficult is this for you to comprehend? :rolleyes:

I suppose that these two sources can be taken at face value:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61373

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61380

-----
FIA: "Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tyres had been fitted to his car. When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20 second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him."
-----

McLaren and Alonso claim that the question of tires came to light from "concerns expressed following the fitting of used tyres undoubtedly contributed to the delay in Fernando's ultimate departure."

Is this an unreasonable expanation or did Alonso and McLaren simply lie? Does anyone know what was actually commuicated over the radio to support the FIA's conclusion and refute McLaren and Alonso?

-----
FIA: "The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted."
-----

McLaren understandably claims, "we do not understand the relevance of this observation as the team needed to estimate where all the remaining cars would be in the final minutes of the session."

It seems reasonable to assume that the remaining cars in Q3 would not stand down in the final minutes and in fact would attempt a final hot lap. So track spacing is important as well as anticipating where other cars will be after they depart the pits.

The point is that the FIA has the recording of the communications. The recordings or a transcript should be released to the public so that everyone can understand the reasoning behind the ruling. If McLaren and/or Alonso were simply lying and there were no actual communications to support their defense, then they were rightly penalized.

If these commuications actually took place as McLaren and Alonso described, then what happens the next time a team does a countdown in qualifying that results in controversy. Imagine a slightly similar situation to Alonso's qualifying penalty at Monza 2006. If a countdown inadvertently leads to their driver "blocking" another, can the team then be denied any constructor points for the weekend?

How about this situation-- A driver doesn't leave his pit box because he thinks the team fitted the wrong tires and wants this possible mistake to be corrected. As a result his teammate is unecessarily queued up behind. This could happen in the last few minutes of qualifying or in a race with changing wet/dry conditons, and the teammate who was queued might lose laps in qualifying or track position in a race. Are the team and driver now subject to penalities?

It is academic now as far as the race goes, but I do think the FIA has set a dangerous precedent without providing transparency as to the facts behind their decision. Yes, they wrote a short paper describing their decision, but they also need to present the actual evidence used to support their findings.

[donKey jote]

it seems to me the FIA is doing all it can to bring the sport into disrepute again :D

According to the "Spanish version", Alonso questioned going out for his final lap on used hards. A fair question in my view, since he was second at that point.
I also can´t believe Alonso, superman as he is, (or his "trainer/boy friend" for that matter) could run a stopwatch down to .6 seconds in his head... so blaming him smells a bit too much of "let´s all pick on the dirty spaniard" for my liking :)
What does the objective press (i.e. italian or finnish :p : ) have to say about it all ?
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[markabilly]

I suppose that these two sources can be taken at face value:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61373

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61380

-----
FIA: "Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tyres had been fitted to his car. When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20 second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him."
-----

McLaren and Alonso claim that the question of tires came to light from "concerns expressed following the fitting of used tyres undoubtedly contributed to the delay in Fernando's ultimate departure."

Is this an unreasonable expanation or did Alonso and McLaren simply lie? Does anyone know what was actually commuicated over the radio to support the FIA's conclusion and refute McLaren and Alonso?

-----
FIA: "The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted."
-----

McLaren understandably claims, "we do not understand the relevance of this observation as the team needed to estimate where all the remaining cars would be in the final minutes of the session."

It seems reasonable to assume that the remaining cars in Q3 would not stand down in the final minutes and in fact would attempt a final hot lap. So track spacing is important as well as anticipating where other cars will be after they depart the pits.

The point is that the FIA has the recording of the communications. The recordings or a transcript should be released to the public so that everyone can understand the reasoning behind the ruling. If McLaren and/or Alonso were simply lying and there were no actual communications to support their defense, then they were rightly penalized.

If these commuications actually took place as McLaren and Alonso described, then what happens the next time a team does a countdown in qualifying that results in controversy. Imagine a slightly similar situation to Alonso's qualifying penalty at Monza 2006. If a countdown inadvertently leads to their driver "blocking" another, can the team then be denied any constructor points for the weekend?

How about this situation-- A driver doesn't leave his pit box because he thinks the team fitted the wrong tires and wants this possible mistake to be corrected. As a result his teammate is unecessarily queued up behind. This could happen in the last few minutes of qualifying or in a race with changing wet/dry conditons, and the teammate who was queued might lose laps in qualifying or track position in a race. Are the team and driver now subject to penalities?

It is academic now as far as the race goes, but I do think the FIA has set a dangerous precedent without providing transparency as to the facts behind their decision. Yes, they wrote a short paper describing their decision, but they also need to present the actual evidence used to support their findings.

The name of the game was to play carrot and stick with FA, and LH just did not understand it---perhaps the FIA has figured it out, but I doubt it

Besides the LH apologists will ignore it as they pull for their driver to win...and just like LH, apparently fail to see what is going on or they would be more smug and :beer: ...and since LH was very smaug in the post race interview on TV, maybe he has figured it out as well.

My guess is that FA never will figure out as to who is the reycled one until it is too late and then it will be :grenade:

[Bezza]

My gut feeling here is that the whole blocking thing was between Alonso and his personal trainer/boy friend.


Come on Valve thats the comic talent of a 10-year old. :rolleyes:

[Ian McC]

Your you are absolutely gay and get angry of not being able to be alonso's manager

What? Has Hillbilly got himself a new forum ID? :eek:

[jens]

I can understand the penalty for Alonso, but the penalty for the team in terms of WCC points is really something ununderstandable. It's purely a team's own issue and McLaren's own drivers suffered from disobeying the orders. I may understand that if McLaren had prevented other teams and drivers from making best out of the package, but...

Although if I'm going to bring in my bias, then I can't say that I'm disappointed with the decision as I have a softer spot for Ferrari among the teams, but from practical view I can't get the point. It looks like FIA may penalize whatever to make the championship more interesting.

[donKey jote]

It looks like FIA may penalize whatever to make the championship more interesting.

more interesting only for some :p :
but I agree that´s what it looks like, and in doing so they are, in my view, doing more harm (bringing the sport into disrepute etc) than good :)

[DonnieDarco]

more interesting only for some :p :
but I agree that´s what it looks like, and in doing so they are, in my view, doing more harm (bringing the sport into disrepute etc) than good :)

Donks, you know full well Alonso did what he did :D If you'd seen the footage ITV showed today of him being interviewed outside after the press conf, and laughing at the media, you'd know for certain :D

He was very pleased with himself, thought it was a great way to show Hamilton and Ron who's boss.

[markabilly]

Donks, you know full well Alonso did what he did :D If you'd seen the footage ITV showed today of him being interviewed outside after the press conf, and laughing at the media, you'd know for certain :D

He was very pleased with himself, thought it was a great way to show Hamilton and Ron who's boss.
Sure that was alonso saying "don't F...do that to me again" and " Go F....swivel"

Oooppps that was the other one, you know theone that did not like FA being given the same exact benefit given to LH at Silverstone....so he deliberately, as shown by tapes of the radio, chose to ignore and disreagrd his instructions...yeah right, sure that Alsono...Clear you been drinking your kool aid :beer:

[Ian McC]

He was very pleased with himself, thought it was a great way to show Hamilton and Ron who's boss.

I bet he's not so pleased now.

[Fallingwater]

He was laughing at the media out of resignation. It's not the first time he feels a surreal penalty has been invented for him, so in a way it's understandable. Either he takes it with humour or shows he's angry. He chose to hide the bad feelings at that moment.

[donKey jote]

Donks, you know full well Alonso did what he did If you'd seen the footage ITV showed today of him being interviewed outside after the press conf, and laughing at the media, you'd know for certain

He was very pleased with himself, thought it was a great way to show Hamilton and Ron who's boss.

He did what he did by definition, I´ll grant you that much :up:
I don´t know how far he vas only obeying orderrz though ;)
Hamilton clearly showed both Ron and Alonso who´s boss :dozey:

ITV footage... I haven't seen it yet but I will (as I always try to do - I got qualy already, the race is due soon) :laugh:

Maybe some of you would be more balanced if you saw some other coverage too though... ITV are worse than telecinco when it comes to bias, and that´s saying something :D

[tinchote]

I'm still struggling to understand some people's point of view here. Last year MS prevented FA from doing a quick lap, and he was stripped of all his qualy times. And most people - FA for sure - seemed to think it was fair. Yesterday FA prevented LH from doing a quick lap, and he was demoted 5 spots, way less than what MS got last year. He and his team lied to the stewards. And he thinks it's unfair? :confused:

[Fallingwater]

FA was doing a fast lap when Schumacher decided to stop on track. Hamilton never made that last lap (the team said it wasn't his turn to get one) so you can't compare. According to Dennis and Alonso, this was a team decision meant to make their initial agreement (Alonso having a last lap on less fuel) stand. Hamilton just wouldn't have it, and cried to FIA about it, costing his teammate's pole positions and every constructor point for the team.
You can't just say the team and Alonso lied to the stewards. That's their opinion and Hamilton's (and I bet a large part of the media needs that to be the truth). And it has caused them to be very upset with him (compare the lack of enthusiasm today with LH's past victories).
About the penalty being different, that just tells you FIA don't see the incident as being comparable at all.

[markabilly]

so as they say, the fruit don't fall far from the tree.

As to Monacao, let see, oh now I remember..you are right.....FA refused to follow the agreement to grant special benefits to MS, then FA's TEAM made MS stop and wait, then MS decided not to go soon enough to make FA happy....yes Very identical INDEED.......Fa should have got the same penalty

Now I got it, me thinks more kool aid for this gentlemen and I will have one too :beer:

[Buzz Lightyear]

According to Dennis and Alonso, this was a team decision meant to make their initial agreement (Alonso having a last lap on less fuel) stand. Hamilton just wouldn't have it, and cried to FIA about it, costing his teammate's pole positions and every constructor point for the team.


I dont understand your point. If Alonso had have left the pits when instructed.. there was time for both driver to have a low fuel lap?

"It your turn to have a low fuel qualifying... no.. its yours"...bollocks that.

drive as fast as you can. isnt that what its all about?

[markabilly]

FA was doing a fast lap when Schumacher decided to stop on track. Hamilton never made that last lap (the team said it wasn't his turn to get one) so you can't compare. According to Dennis and Alonso, this was a team decision meant to make their initial agreement (Alonso having a last lap on less fuel) stand. Hamilton just wouldn't have it, and cried to FIA about it, costing his teammate's pole positions and every constructor point for the team.
You can't just say the team and Alonso lied to the stewards. That's their opinion and Hamilton's (and I bet a large part of the media needs that to be the truth). And it has caused them to be very upset with him (compare the lack of enthusiasm today with LH's past victories).
About the penalty being different, that just tells you FIA don't see the incident as being comparable at all.

that thos were excuses for Macalaren holding up LH, to give back what LH took--the problem is if there are to be team orders and punishment for that, then LH should have felt the same heat for what happened at Silverstone, Indy and Canada
Fair for one should be fair for all...

Me I want NO MORE TEAM ORDERS!!!ANd that includes all talk to drivers...no more radios and such saying time to pit for example...when a driver wants to pit, he does so. If the team does not agree, then they should let him sit in the pitlane.OOOPPPPS that would be also illegal.....

[DonnieDarco]

He did what he did by definition, I´ll grant you that much
I don´t know how far he vas only obeying orderrz though
Hamilton clearly showed both Ron and Alonso who´s boss

ITV footage... I haven't seen it yet but I will (as I always try to do - I got qualy already, the race is due soon) :laugh:

Maybe some of you would be more balanced if you saw some other coverage too though... ITV are worse than telecinco when it comes to bias, and that´s saying something :D


LOL!!! He was obeying orders precisely up to the point that he ignored the upraised lollipop, and waited for his trainer to count him in :D

ITV aren't great I'll grant you, but they showed an interview with Lewis they did the night before the race, and Lewis admitted he started the whole thing by disobeying a direct order.

But two wrongs don't make a right Donks, as I'm sure you know ;) :D

[Fallingwater]

Considering the fact that both of them made 17 laps on qualyfing, and the plan was to let Alonso have one more...
Where exactly is the lap he stole from Hamilton?
Yes, there was probably time for Lewis to give it one last try if Alonso had left earlier (he almost didn't make it himself), but isn't it the team who decides, instead of Lewis or FIA?
Anyone?

[tinchote]

You can't just say the team and Alonso lied to the stewards. That's their opinion and Hamilton's (and I bet a large part of the media needs that to be the truth).

Of course I can. McLaren said, in writing, to the stewards that the delay to relaunch FA to the track was due to the fact that they were waiting for a break in traffic. The stewards checked the data and found that during those 20+10 seconds that FA was standing in the box, there was only one car on the track. Thus, there was no need to wait: they were lying.

Precisely because they lied, is that they got the penalty.

In any case, obstructing a driver during qualifying is an action that is penalized by the rules, and that's precisely what FA did. And it doesn't matter that he did it to his teammate, he did it to his main competitor.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Considering the fact that both of them made 17 laps on qualyfing, and the plan was to let Alonso have one more...
Where exactly is the lap he stole from Hamilton?
Yes, there was probably time for Lewis to give it one last try if Alonso had left earlier (he almost didn't make it himself), but isn't it the team who decides, instead of Lewis or FIA?
Anyone?

Alonso had every chance to decide to leave early... but didnt. Each driver would have an equal shot at pole on same fuel, and tyres, but alonso didnt allow that to happen. this mclaren spin, that everything is equal is nonsense.

Acutally.... Ive just thought...if anything McLaren should be done for race fixing, as it appears that had predetermined that alonso was 'allowed' to go for pole??? anyone..?

[Fallingwater]

Was alonso on the same tyres when he made his last lap? I though the team had accidentally put him a wrong set. Even if he had every chance to leave, where is the rule that says "If you're main rival for the title can make another lap and win pole, even against the pre-arranged team strategy, you should always move over without complaining"

McLaren (don't ask me why) decides that their drivers take turns in each GP to finish qualifying by taking one more lap than the other one. According to Alonso and the team, it was his turn on Saturday, but LH knew that meant Alonso would leave Hungary as the WDC leader.
But agree, the team's explanation was actually a pretty poor one. I guess they didn't want to admit that they were punishing LH for his attitude. That would have caused a penalty right away, without an investigation. In any case, Alonso did what he was told, and the team backs him up.

[jso1985]

what I don't understand is if Mclaren caused the mess, why penalize only Alonso? or if Alonos caused the mess why penalize the whole team?

[Valve Bounce]

Your you are absolutely gay and get angry of not being able to be alonso's manager

That wasn't his manager - that was his massager :p :

[Valve Bounce]

-----

McLaren and Alonso claim that the question of tires came to light from "concerns expressed following the fitting of used tyres undoubtedly contributed to the delay in Fernando's ultimate departure."

Is this an unreasonable expanation or did Alonso and McLaren simply lie? Does anyone know what was actually commuicated over the radio to support the FIA's conclusion and refute McLaren and Alonso?

-----
FIA: "The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted."
-----

McLaren understandably claims, "we do not understand the relevance of this observation as the team needed to estimate where all the remaining cars would be in the final minutes of the session."

It seems reasonable to assume that the remaining cars in Q3 would not stand down in the final minutes and in fact would attempt a final hot lap. So track spacing is important as well as anticipating where other cars will be after they depart the pits.


How about this situation-- A driver doesn't leave his pit box because he thinks the team fitted the wrong tires and wants this possible mistake to be corrected. As a result his teammate is unecessarily queued up behind. This could happen in the last few minutes of qualifying or in a race with changing wet/dry conditons, and the teammate who was queued might lose laps in qualifying or track position in a race. Are the team and driver now subject to penalities?

.

First of all, if Alonso thought he had the wrong tyres on, it would have taken the team another minute to go fetch different tyres and change them. Also, there is a film on u-tube that showed Alonso looking at his trainer on the pit wasll giving him the count down. And thirdly, Ron Dennis was livid with Alonso's trainer after Q3 and frog marched him away from the pit lane and he said that the whole thing would be sorted in house. He wasn't going to explain to the press why he was mad or why he was frog marching this grinning Alonso massager.

Secondly, there was only one car , Kimi, left on track so the FIA could see Ron was trying to create a spin. Had Ron accepted that Alonso had done the wrong thing, and kept his mouth shut, he would have been 15 points up on the WCC and been permitted to attend the podium ceremony.

Even Alonso performance during the past Q press conference left most people convinced he was very pleased with himself that he blocked Lewis Hamilton.

[Valve Bounce]

Of course I can. McLaren said, in writing, to the stewards that the delay to relaunch FA to the track was due to the fact that they were waiting for a break in traffic. The stewards checked the data and found that during those 20+10 seconds that FA was standing in the box, there was only one car on the track. Thus, there was no need to wait: they were lying.

Precisely because they lied, is that they got the penalty.

In any case, obstructing a driver during qualifying is an action that is penalized by the rules, and that's precisely what FA did. And it doesn't matter that he did it to his teammate, he did it to his main competitor.


Right on. :up:

[markabilly]

back at Silverstone and then to placate FA, the team gave him the same advantage bestowed upon LH, then LH starts his "I ain't no team player except when it is in my best interests", and so..now we have it.....

Maybe MacLaren needs to be investigated for fixin the pole, hence the race for LH at Silverstone.....ain't that what LH was fussing about at Monaco "team orders"........seems only fair......

[wmcot]

5 places seems to be the standard for this race... Fisi got them too :)

I understand that Hungary uses a base-5 number system - hence the punishments. ;)

[wmcot]

Now go drink some RD koolaid, you will feel much better :beer:

Dude, you have some good points, but lose the "kool aid" bit - it's getting old.

[Fallingwater]

I still don't understand. McLaren might have been deprived of their points for lying to the stewards. But what about Alonso?
Even in the event that he intentionally blocked Hamilton (team orders or whatever), can anyone give me a link to this year's rule that states "Hamilton should always get one more lap than Alonso if he has the available time to do so" ?
In other words, why weren't the teams that performed a different amount of laps in Q3 punished?
I think the issue was not really the blocking manouvre. What really did bug the Hamiltons was that with 17 laps each in Q3, Alonso achieved P1.
Would he have been stripped of pole if he hadn't been able to achieve it? Makes you think.

[tinchote]

I still don't understand. McLaren might have been deprived of their points for lying to the stewards. But what about Alonso?
Even in the event that he intentionally blocked Hamilton (team orders or whatever), can anyone give me a link to this year's rule that states "Hamilton should always get one more lap than Alonso if he has the available time to do so" ?


There is no such rule. What the rules say, is


from FIA F1 Sporting Regulations (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/1754DB4574B7A2C0C1257329003642F0/$FILE/2007-F1-SPORTING_REG_13-07-2007.pdf?Openelement)

31.6 In the event of a driving infringement during any practice session the Stewards may drop the driver such number of grid positions as they consider appropriate. Unless it is completely clear that a driver committed a driving infringement any such incident will normally be investigated after the relevant session, any penalty imposed shall not be subject to appeal. Where appropriate, regard will also be given to the provisions of Article 18.1.

31.7 Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards, stops unnecessarily on the circuit or unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article 31.6.


FA impeded LH for 30 seconds, and couldn't give a good explanation why he did so. Hence the sanction.

[Fallingwater]

FA impeded LH for 30 seconds, and couldn't give a good explanation why he did so. Hence the sanction.
I see (was the lollipop up for 30 seconds?). I thought that rule talked specifically about stopping on track when the other driver is in a flying lap. Like MS in Monaco. But, the rules must re-interpreted (again) to go against FA.
As hard as it is to explain why FA stopped for so long, other events (such as Alonso crossing the start line in a risky 0.6s (was it?) before the time was up, suggests that moving again wasn't exactly his own deliberate decision. At least I don't think he's THAT good.
I ask the question again. Imagine Alonso couldn't make a better time on that last lap, and Hamilton kept P1. Would the rules apply in that case? Would the incident have been investigated? The answer is probably NO. Alonso's problem was not blocking another driver for a determined amount of seconds without an explanation. His real problem was getting pole position while doing so. I wish I was wrong, but it sure looks that way.

[Mickey T]

At McLaren, the drivers take it in turns to have their crack at the last qualifier on the lightest fuel load.

that's because, during the fuel-burn phase of Q3, on of their cars will need to do one less lap than the other one so they can get pitted through the session.

clearly, this gives a small weight advantage to the driver on the lighter fuel load, and it's this driver that is, then, the one who gets the last shot at pole position because he stops last, on the light load, and also knows what to aim at on split times.

this system has favoured hamilton before, not only at silverstone, as has widely been mentioned.

this time, though, it was alonso's turn. lewis ignored six radio calls to let alonso past so he could regain the position (lewis also jumped out of the garage to wait at the front of the queue, which of the two mclarens was alonso's perogative).

What Alonso did may have been a bit cunning and could be considered unfair to the punters who paid to see a hard qualifying fight, but it certainly was NOT unfair to hamilton. he was removing lewis's tactical benefit from ignoring the team orders earlier in the session - team orders which insisted lewis was never supposed to get the final, lightweight run in qualifying that day anyway.

you have to be a bit blinded by the rookie mania to believe alonso did anything demonstrably wrong. his team mate was behaving badly, against team orders and to alonso's detriment (after alonso had respected similar arrangements, again, to alonso's detriment, at other tracks). he used a bit of cunning to ensure his team mate never got a reward for unethical behaviour.

so, whatever way you look at it, it bears no relationship whatsoever to schumacher at monaco

for the life of me, i don't understand why the FIA felt it needed to be involved in an internal team management crisis, which only exacerbated the situation when the sport didn't need it.

whatever, i don't envy the management job ron has in keeping his drivers from each other's throats for the remainder of their contracts...

[tinchote]

At McLaren, the drivers take it in turns to have their crack at the last qualifier on the lightest fuel load.

that's because, during the fuel-burn phase of Q3, on of their cars will need to do one less lap than the other one so they can get pitted through the session.


Very "reasonable" explanation. However, I check the stats and I see that at Montreal, Barcelona, Bahrain, Malaysia, and Australia both FA and LH did the same amount of laps in Q3. Taking into account that France and Germany don't count (one of them didn't finish Q3), the only qualys where one of them did a lap more were Monaco, USA and Britain. So, even counting Hungary, the "one of the drivers does one more lap" thing appeared in only 4 races out of 11. Each time I find it harder to believe these guys.


I see (was the lollipop up for 30 seconds?). I thought that rule talked specifically about stopping on track when the other driver is in a flying lap. Like MS in Monaco. But, the rules must re-interpreted (again) to go against FA.
As hard as it is to explain why FA stopped for so long, other events (such as Alonso crossing the start line in a risky 0.6s (was it?) before the time was up, suggests that moving again wasn't exactly his own deliberate decision. At least I don't think he's THAT good.
I ask the question again. Imagine Alonso couldn't make a better time on that last lap, and Hamilton kept P1. Would the rules apply in that case? Would the incident have been investigated? The answer is probably NO. Alonso's problem was not blocking another driver for a determined amount of seconds without an explanation. His real problem was getting pole position while doing so. I wish I was wrong, but it sure looks that way.

Ok, FA impeded LH for 10 seconds. Satisfied, now? :rolleyes:

You are too paranoid man, there is no campaign against Alonso. He had an unsporting behaviour and he was penalized for that. Simple.

[donKey jote]

At McLaren, the drivers take it in turns to have their crack at the last qualifier on the lightest fuel load.

that's because, during the fuel-burn phase of Q3, on of their cars will need to do one less lap than the other one so they can get pitted through the session.

clearly, this gives a small weight advantage to the driver on the lighter fuel load, and it's this driver that is, then, the one who gets the last shot at pole position because he stops last, on the light load, and also knows what to aim at on split times.

this system has favoured hamilton before, not only at silverstone, as has widely been mentioned.

this time, though, it was alonso's turn. lewis ignored six radio calls to let alonso past so he could regain the position (lewis also jumped out of the garage to wait at the front of the queue, which of the two mclarens was alonso's perogative).

What Alonso did may have been a bit cunning and could be considered unfair to the punters who paid to see a hard qualifying fight, but it certainly was NOT unfair to hamilton. he was removing lewis's tactical benefit from ignoring the team orders earlier in the session - team orders which insisted lewis was never supposed to get the final, lightweight run in qualifying that day anyway.

you have to be a bit blinded by the rookie mania to believe alonso did anything demonstrably wrong. his team mate was behaving badly, against team orders and to alonso's detriment (after alonso had respected similar arrangements, again, to alonso's detriment, at other tracks). he used a bit of cunning to ensure his team mate never got a reward for unethical behaviour.

so, whatever way you look at it, it bears no relationship whatsoever to schumacher at monaco

for the life of me, i don't understand why the FIA felt it needed to be involved in an internal team management crisis, which only exacerbated the situation when the sport didn't need it.

whatever, i don't envy the management job ron has in keeping his drivers from each other's throats for the remainder of their contracts...


:up: :up: :up:

According to the Spanish newspapers, Anthony called them ! :laugh:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[N. Jones]

I haven't read all three pages of this but I was wondering....

Has anyone realized that it was Hamilton who first disobeyed team orders by not allowing Alonso to pass him in the early stages of Q3? This started a chain reaction that has caused all of this discussion in the first place!

[Fallingwater]

Ok, FA impeded LH for 10 seconds. Satisfied, now? :rolleyes:

You are too paranoid man, there is no campaign against Alonso. He had an unsporting behaviour and he was penalized for that. Simple.10 and 30 seconds does make a difference.
And you admit they did the same amount of laps in Hungary. So once again, Where is the lap Hamilton couldn't do?In 17 laps, Alonso made the fastest time, which is the heart of the matter.
It's funny how the stewards took hours to decide, yet most people here haven't changed their opinion since the events were shown on TV.

Even if it had been the first time the team decided to give a driver that extra lap, Hamilton would still be the cause of all the problems.

There IS a campaign against FA, which was very evident last year, not forgetting Bernie's comments about Alonso not having the profile of champion they want for the sport, and the great financial opportunity they have with Hamilton.

"Unsporting behaviour" is a rather subjective thing. Disobeying team orders can also be unsporting. Having one more lap than your teammate in Q3 could also be considered unsporting. You can go on like that forever.
In any case, Alonso wasn't moved to the back of the grid (which I repeat, that's where he should have been in case of "unsporting behaviour). He was just pushed back enough to not be able to challenge LH.

The fact is, this whole drama is based on the assumption that LH had to have one more lap than Alonso no matter what, and the assumption that he was going to get P1 100% sure. I'm not paranoid, just trying to figure out what happened. Explanations such as "FA just cheated and got punished" are really a poor way to explain the whole thing, since we know there's much more to it.

[donKey jote]

I haven't read all three pages of this but I was wondering....

Has anyone realized that it was Hamilton who first disobeyed team orders by not allowing Alonso to pass him in the early stages of Q3? This started a chain reaction that has caused all of this discussion in the first place!

Everybody realises that, but we all prefer to dig at ron for lying and at the dirty donkey for being a crybaby and retaliating :D

[tinchote]

10 and 30 seconds does make a difference.
And you admit they did the same amount of laps in Hungary. So once again, Where is the lap Hamilton couldn't do?In 17 laps, Alonso made the fastest time, which is the heart of the matter.
It's funny how the stewards took hours to decide, yet most people here haven't changed their opinion since the events were shown on TV.


The stewards took hours to decide, because they analyzed the incident, in detail, yet you claim to know more than them :rolleyes:



Even if it had been the first time the team decided to give a driver that extra lap, Hamilton would still be the cause of all the problems.

There IS a campaign against FA, which was very evident last year, not forgetting Bernie's comments about Alonso not having the profile of champion they want for the sport, and the great financial opportunity they have with Hamilton.


There is no campaign against FA. But I know no one will convince you otherwise.



"Unsporting behaviour" is a rather subjective thing. Disobeying team orders can also be unsporting. Having one more lap than your teammate in Q3 could also be considered unsporting. You can go on like that forever.
In any case, Alonso wasn't moved to the back of the grid (which I repeat, that's where he should have been in case of "unsporting behaviour). He was just pushed back enough to not be able to challenge LH.


Dissobeying team orders cannot be "unsporting behaviour", because team orders are banned.



The fact is, this whole drama is based on the assumption that LH had to have one more lap than Alonso no matter what, and the assumption that he was going to get P1 100% sure. I'm not paranoid, just trying to figure out what happened. Explanations such as "FA just cheated and got punished" are really a poor way to explain the whole thing, since we know there's much more to it.

If you are trying to figure out what happened, just explain to me why FA had to wait 30 seconds after his car was ready for his last lap. Maybe we can start from there.

[Fallingwater]

Because the team didn't want Hamilton to have a last go after having disobeyed their orders in Q3. That would explain the team's loss of points, since they were lying about traffic when trying to explain LH's punishment.
When I said team orders, I meant orders issued by the team. Which is different to the team altering the natural outcome of a race via a questionnable decision.
Qualifying is not the same thing as the race, and the pit lane has different rules than the track. The problem is, some of them are not clear yet.

[tinchote]

Because the team didn't want Hamilton to have a last go after having disobeyed their orders in Q3. That would explain the team's loss of points, since they were lying about traffic when trying to explain LH's punishment.
When I said team orders, I meant orders issued by the team. Which is different to the team altering the natural outcome of a race via a questionnable decision.
Qualifying is not the same thing as the race, and the pit lane has different rules than the track. The problem is, some of them are not clear yet.

I would say that meddling with the pole position has a lot to do with altering the outcome of the race.

In any case, I don't think that a team has the right to punish one of its own drivers by resorting to unsporting behaviour from the other driver. Suppose a team sends one driver to force the other driver into a spin: would that be ok? I don't think so. And that is the kind of thing that happened here. If they wanted LH not to do one more lap, it was enough for them not to fuel his car, and that would have been an internal affair within McLaren.

[Fallingwater]

In any case, I don't think that a team has the right to punish one of its own drivers by resorting to unsporting behaviour from the other driver. Suppose a team sends one driver to force the other driver into a spin: would that be ok? I don't think so. And that is the kind of thing that happened here. If they wanted LH not to do one more lap, it was enough for them not to fuel his car, and that would have been an internal affair within McLaren.
I don't think making a car wait and sending it into a spin is the same thing, but I totally agree with the rest. It wasn't a wise move at all. But they didn't meddle with the pole position. They gave each of their drivers 17 laps, and Alonso outperformed Hamilton. If they gave Hamilton that extra lap, wouldn't that have been also "altering the outcome"? I mean, it's not like they didn't let Lewis out in Q3 or anything...

[tinchote]

I don't think making a car wait and sending it into a spin is the same thing, but I totally agree with the rest. It wasn't a wise move at all. But they didn't meddle with the pole position. They gave each of their drivers 17 laps, and Alonso outperformed Hamilton. If they gave Hamilton that extra lap, wouldn't that have been also "altering the outcome"? I mean, it's not like they didn't let Lewis out in Q3 or anything...

I'm not saying it's the same thing. But just look at it this way: suppose it is a driver from [u]another[/b] team who delays a rival in the pit lane, wouldn't that be considered unsporting? The fact that they are in the same team is irrelevant, I think.

Alonso somehow lost more than half a lap with respect to LH in that session. Had he stayed near him, they would have both done one more lap. Why the team doesn't want to do that (other than favouring FA) is beyond me.

[Fallingwater]

I'm not saying it's the same thing. But just look at it this way: suppose it is a driver from another team who delays a rival in the pit lane, wouldn't that be considered unsporting? The fact that they are in the same team is irrelevant, I think.
No, the fact that they are in the same team means he can block him in more places, and make it possible to hide the reasons. If he blocks another car right at the pit stop exit, it would me much more obvious.


Alonso somehow lost more than half a lap with respect to LH in that session. Had he stayed near him, they would have both done one more lap. Why the team doesn't want to do that (other than favouring FA) is beyond me.
I think Hamilton messed up the teams plans for Q3, in which Alonso was going to get an extra lap but in the end couldn't. It's true they favour a particular driver with those decisions, but the reason is that they can't have them do Q3 with the exact same fuel load or else pitting them would be even more complicated. At least that's what I read somewhere.

[Daika]

I haven't read all three pages of this but I was wondering....

Has anyone realized that it was Hamilton who first disobeyed team orders by not allowing Alonso to pass him in the early stages of Q3? This started a chain reaction that has caused all of this discussion in the first place!

Reminds me of the "butterfly effect"

"The phrase refers to the idea that a butterfly's wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere that ultimately cause a tornado to appear (or prevent a tornado from appearing). The flapping wing represents a small change in the initial condition of the system, which causes a chain of events leading to large-scale phenomena. Had the butterfly not flapped its wings, the trajectory of the system might have been vastly different."

[Fallingwater]

Maybe. In this case, the trajectory of the system might have been Alonso keeping P1 and being leader of the WDC as of today.

[Daika]

I think Mclaren (RD) wanted Hamilton to be punish because he ignored letting Hamilton passed. This, like we all now backfired because FIA act when you impede another driver for NO valid reason (FIA rightfully doesn't care wheter they are teammates)

[Fallingwater]

The thing is, FIA's article referred to a driver blocking another one on track with the blocked driver being in a fast lap. Of course, since it wasn't specified clearly, they extended the rule to a driver impeding another one to begin a fast lap.

[N. Jones]

I think Mclaren (RD) wanted Hamilton to be punish because he ignored letting Hamilton passed. This, like we all now backfired because FIA act when you impede another driver for NO valid reason (FIA rightfully doesn't care wheter they are teammates)

How could Hamilton block himself? :laugh:

[Daika]

How could Hamilton block himself? :laugh:

That is the part where a certain Spanish driver showed up, to tell him to block Hamilton. On second thought, i don't think RD gave the instruction to block Hamilton but worse a ROGUE element within the team like the espionage case.

[Garry Walker]

According to the Spanish newspapers, Anthony called them ! :laugh:

A retarded ape is more qualified and credible than most of spanish F1 press and I might be too harsh on the ape here.

I loved it when Alonso got punished, he tried to get one over LH, but it ended backfiring him. JUSTICE!!! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[N. Jones]

That is the part where a certain Spanish driver showed up, to tell him to block Hamilton. On second thought, i don't think RD gave the instruction to block Hamilton but worse a ROGUE element within the team like the espionage case.

Seriously?

[donKey jote]

A retarded ape is more qualified and credible than most of spanish F1 press and I might be too harsh on the ape here.:

El Pais isn't F1 press, it's one of the main respectable dailies, comparable to your "independent", say, and definitely more respectable than your Sun or Daily Mail apes :laugh:

[Garry Walker]

El Pais isn't F1 press, it's one of the main respectable dailies, comparable to your "independent", say, and definitely more respectable than your Sun or Daily Mail apes :laugh:

When i want to read F1, I will not go to read newspapers like Sun or Daily-Mail.
In fact, you will have to shoot me in the nuts and I still wouldnt read the Sun.
I suggest the same to you about El Pais. But keep on believing that unbiased and honest spanish press :rotflmao:

[donKey jote]

I suggest the same to you about El Pais. But keep on believing that unbiased and honest spanish press :rotflmao:
I read the daily paper and there was an article on F1 in the sports section :dozey:
I suggest you reserve your bigotted statements until you are better informed that there is a whole wide world out on the other side of the chunnel, even though it does stink of garlic :laugh:

[fandango]

When i want to read F1, I will not go to read newspapers like Sun or Daily-Mail.
In fact, you will have to shoot me in the nuts and I still wouldnt read the Sun.
I suggest the same to you about El Pais. But keep on believing that unbiased and honest spanish press :rotflmao:

Of course the Spanish press is biased, just like the British.

[akv89]

Will someone explain to me exactly what happened? I missed the qualifying incident and haven't been able to read a single article that clearly explained what happened. Was Alonso told to remain in the pits by RD or did he do it himself? What is the deal with Hamilton being "punished"?

[Priorat]

Will someone explain to me exactly what happened? I missed the qualifying incident and haven't been able to read a single article that clearly explained what happened. Was Alonso told to remain in the pits by RD or did he do it himself? What is the deal with Hamilton being "punished"?

Lucky you that have avoided to hear all this that has nothing to do with real F1

[tinchote]

Will someone explain to me exactly what happened? I missed the qualifying incident and haven't been able to read a single article that clearly explained what happened. Was Alonso told to remain in the pits by RD or did he do it himself? What is the deal with Hamilton being "punished"?

At the beginning of Q3, FA was supposed to go first (arrangement within McLaren) but LH went first, and didn't let FA pass, even after he was required to do so repeteadly by radio.

When they stopped for tyres at about mid session, FA waited for several seconds after the car was ready, apparently waiting for a nice spot in traffic.

When the time came for the last stop, less than 2 minutes before the end of the session, FA was made to wait 20 seconds after his car was ready. About then, his lollipop man lifted to release him, and LH was arriving to the pit. FA then stayed put for another 10 seconds, leaving the box about 1:32 before the session's closure. This made LH, after he was refuelled and changed the tyres, to be unable to start his last flying lap before the end of the session.

Ron Dennis declared publicly :eek: that they did this to punish LH for dissobeying team orders.

[akv89]

At the beginning of Q3, FA was supposed to go first (arrangement within McLaren) but LH went first, and didn't let FA pass, even after he was required to do so repeteadly by radio.

When they stopped for tyres at about mid session, FA waited for several seconds after the car was ready, apparently waiting for a nice spot in traffic.

When the time came for the last stop, less than 2 minutes before the end of the session, FA was made to wait 20 seconds after his car was ready. About then, his lollipop man lifted to release him, and LH was arriving to the pit. FA then stayed put for another 10 seconds, leaving the box about 1:32 before the session's closure. This made LH, after he was refuelled and changed the tyres, to be unable to start his last flying lap before the end of the session.

Ron Dennis declared publicly :eek: that they did this to punish LH for dissobeying team orders.

So Alonso was following orders when he stayed put in the pits? In that case, why have there been so many posts questioning Alonso's sportsmanship? It's a bit disheartening to see these kinds of things happening in F1. I can't remember a single time when tense relations between two talents in the same team ended well.

[tinchote]

So Alonso was following orders when he stayed put in the pits? In that case, why have there been so many posts questioning Alonso's sportsmanship? It's a bit disheartening to see these kinds of things happening in F1. I can't remember a single time when tense relations between two talents in the same team ended well.

It is not clear who was deciding what. An unusual feature of FA's stop (besides the length) was that he was looking towards the pit wall. And when the session ended, RD seemed to be very upset, and he left the paddock talking with FA's trainer/manager/whatever.

After the incident, when asked about what happened, RD said that what happened was a punishment to LH for not having yielded at the beginning of the session. But the statement given to the stewards said that they were waiting for a hole in traffic for FA. They forgot to notice that at the time there was only one car on the track ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Will someone explain to me exactly what happened? I missed the qualifying incident and haven't been able to read a single article that clearly explained what happened. Was Alonso told to remain in the pits by RD or did he do it himself? What is the deal with Hamilton being "punished"?


Skip it and catch the next one. :p :

[markabilly]

It is not clear who was deciding what. An unusual feature of FA's stop (besides the length) was that he was looking towards the pit wall. And when the session ended, RD seemed to be very upset, and he left the paddock talking with FA's trainer/manager/whatever.

After the incident, when asked about what happened, RD said that what happened was a punishment to LH for not having yielded at the beginning of the session. But the statement given to the stewards said that they were waiting for a hole in traffic for FA. They forgot to notice that at the time there was only one car on the track ;)

"They forgot to notice that there was only one car on the track"

So? that was perfectly understandable, it was a simple mistake....they thought LH was still out there somewhere on the track, that would have made two to worry about :beer:



FA should have admitted the truth, which truth being that he was too busy exchanging luv looks with his massager :love: to notice LH behind him, but once he saw him, off he went cause he was afraid that LH would see :love: and get jealous.....the other story was told because they did not want to embarrass everyone with the truth, and no one believes the truth anymore anyway :(

[Valve Bounce]

OK, if you have the time, this makes for interesting reading. I just came across it by accident after reading the other article by the Times correspondent.http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/

Im going to read what the other journos had to say - their articles are listed on the right hand of the linked page - I havn't had my read yet. Will talk later.

[tinchote]

OK, if you have the time, this makes for interesting reading. I just came across it by accident after reading the other article by the Times correspondent.http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/

Im going to read what the other journos had to say - their articles are listed on the right hand of the linked page - I havn't had my read yet. Will talk later.

Man, that's really interesting :up: The post referring to the private McLaren press conference on Saturday is priceless :)

It's also great that the full text of the stewards decision is there. Just in case someone is too lazy to skim a few pages down in Valve's link, here the text from the Stewards. The last three paragraphs explain very clearly their decisions.



Saturday, August 4th 2007, 22:48 GMT

During the final minutes of Qualifying, the car driven by Fernando Alonso remained in its pit stop position at the completion of his pit stop notwithstanding the fact that his team-mate Lewis Hamilton was waiting immediately behind him to commence his own pit stop. The delay prevented Hamilton from being able to complete his final flying lap of Qualifying.

The Team Principal, together with the team manager and both drivers were called before the Stewards and asked to explain their actions. Reference was made to video and audio evidence. The facts and the explanation given by the team are as follows:

At the commencement of the third period of the Qualifying practice it had been agreed within the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes Team ("The Team") that Fernando Alonso would leave the pit exit ahead of Lewis Hamilton in order to benefit from the possibility for purposes of fuel burn allowance of being able to complete an additional lap.

In the event, the car driven by Lewis Hamilton arrived at the pit exit before that of Fernando Alonso and when the pit lane opened he left in front of Alonso. The team required Hamilton by radio communication to allow Alonso to pass in order that he might endeavour to complete his extra lap. Because of the proximity of the Ferrari driven by Kimi Raikkonen, however, Hamilton declined to allow Alonso to pass despite repeated requests from the team to do so.

Reference to the radio communications passing between the team and its two drivers shows that the team told Hamilton at 14:56:44 to "box this lap" and required him to do a "hard in lap" but advised him some 32 seconds later to "slow the pace a little, just lose a couple of seconds before the end of the lap because Fernando is pitting in front of you".

At 14:57:34, just 18 seconds later Alonso was told that when he pitted "we are going to hold you for 20 seconds".

At 14:57:46 Alonso's car arrived at his pit stop position, his tyres were changed and the jacks removed just 6 seconds later. The car then remained in position from 14:57:52 to 14:58:12 when the signal known as the "lollipop" was raised indicating that the driver was free to leave.

By this time Hamilton's car had arrived and stopped immediately behind that of Alonso. Alonso, instead of leaving his pit in order that his team-mate Hamilton could complete his pit stop, remained in position for a further 10 seconds. He then left the pit lane in sufficient time to reach the Control Line before the end of Qualifying, completed a flying lap in which he set the fastest time and secured pole position.

Because of the delay caused by Alonso, Hamilton was unable to complete his pit stop in time sufficient to enable him also to complete a flying lap.

The team were asked to explain why having indicated to Hamilton that he must stop at his pit on the next lap, they then informed Alonso whilst he was still on the track that when he also pitted on the next lap he would be held for 20 seconds.

The team stated that they frequently give estimates as to duration of pit stop to their drivers before they pit and that the reason the car was in fact held for 20 seconds was that it was being counted down prior to release at a beneficial time regard being given to other cars on the track.

Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tyres had been fitted to his car. When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20 second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him.

Reference to the circuit map shows that at the time Alonso was told he would be held for 20 seconds there were but 4 cars on the circuit, his own and those of Fisichella, Hamilton and Raikkonen. All but Raikkonen entered the pits such that there can have been no necessity to keep Alonso in the pits for 20 seconds waiting for a convenient gap in traffic in which to leave.

The explanation given by Alonso as to why at the expiration of the 20 second period he remained in his pit stop position for a further 10 seconds is not accepted. The Stewards find that he unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of 5 grid positions.

The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted.

The actions of the team in the final minutes of Qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally. The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula One Constructors Championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix wilt be withdrawn.

The team is reminded of its right of appeal.

[Valve Bounce]

I am trying to come to grips with the advantage of that extra fuel burnoff lap. Not having been interested in the first 12 minutes of Q3 so far this year, I usually have my shower then, or take Benny (our cute long haired Chihuahua) downstairs for his final pit stop of the evening, I am amazed by the conflagration this unknown (to me) advantage could trigger off.

OK, so the guy ahead get's an extra lap of fuel at the start of the race, right? Now, just supposing the guy with this extra fuel load qualifies second and has to start on the dirty side of the track, chances are that he could end up being out dragged by the guy from P3 into the first corner, and because he is running a heavier fuel load than his team mate, he has less chance of keeping up during the first stint. That extra fuel load carried over the first 20 or so laps could end up penalising the guy 4 to 5 seconds, a time that he isn't going to make up on his extra lap when his team mate pits first.

On the other hand, if the guy with the heavier load qualifies in P1, because he is slightly slower, he can still be passed by his team mate during the first stint. So, while there might be some advantage in having an extra lap of fuel, surely this advantage is miniscule.

I see this whole 20 + 10 second delay was triggered by the perception by Fernando of the lack of respect Lewis should have accorded him as the Double WDC, Team leader, the fact that it was his turn to have that slight advantage, but more so by the fact that Lewis had been going faster all weekend and would have pipped him for P1 no matter who got that extra lap advantage.

My final question here is: Do the other teams have this extra fuel burnoff lap issue? Since Kimi was the only car left out on the track when all this was happening as all other cars had already finished Q3 before this last lap of Q3 (some even much earlier), I just don't understand what this extra fuel burnoff advantage is all about. :confused: Why didn't they have these issues(problems)?

[tinchote]

Valve, I think that it's not about the fuel to start the race with. The cars start the race with the same fuel they had at the beginning of Q3. The point of the extra lap is to do the last lap with a few kilos less in the car.

You ask, and I already have (no answer) why McLaren cannot give both drivers the same amount of laps. It's hard for me to understand it. The stops in the qualy last in the order of 5 seconds, so usually things shouldn't be so critical. Taking last Saturday as an example, if both McLarens had kept their pace with FA 4 seconds behind LH, they would have both completed the extra lap. The reason why FA was still in the pit when LH entered at the end of Q3 was that he waited 30 seconds, and that means that in the track he was 50 seconds behind LH (considering a lap of 80 seconds): why? I don't know.

My initial reaction would be to say "well, they are in this, it's they job and they surely know better". But after all the lies and stupidity in front of the press this weekend, I find it hard to trust their judgement (or anything else, for that matter).

[Valve Bounce]

I'm jus so confused over this extra lap stuff. :confused: How come BMW and Ferrari don't have this problem?

[Mickey T]

Valve, i don't reckon alonso was unsporting or malicious at all.

having spent time with him inside and outside f1, that's not his way.

they would have had team meetings about the plan for qualifying, everybody would have agreed. the, when they get out there, hamilton finds he doesn't want to play by the team rules because his team mate might receive the same advantage he himself had received two times this season.

so he ignored them, then became irate afterwards.

i personally view alonso's pitlane efforts this way: hamilton was never supposed to have the right to the last, lighter qualifying lap (just as alnoso didn't get it in england), yet hamilton had ignored both the original team plan and a flood of radio requests to move over.

what alonso/mclaren did was simply put their original team plan back into effect, to negate hamilton's advantage from breaching it.

and yet, somehow, alonso comes out as the villain and hamilton the victim.

the spin they put on it post-session really hurt all concerned, and i doubt they'll go to another gp with their two senior pr flacks absent again...

[TMorel]

Mickey T
How much is there to Lewis saying that he didn't let Fernando pass because Kimi was right behind him.
Fact/Fiction? and if it was like that, would it have had any bearing on Lewis / Fernandos laps?

[Mickey T]

well, alonso and kimi were right behind him. but there was an acre of space behind kimi.

it was qualifying. it was the fuel burn stage when nobody was posting hot laps anyway. it would not have effected hamilton's qualifying, because the hot laps only come after the last stop.

[fandango]

Mickey T
How much is there to Lewis saying that he didn't let Fernando pass because Kimi was right behind him.
Fact/Fiction? and if it was like that, would it have had any bearing on Lewis / Fernandos laps?


As I said in another thread, why didn't LH just get on the radio to explain that he didn't want Kimi to pass him and that Alonso should go fast with him? Hamilton's excuse about this is rather lame.

[Valve Bounce]

I think that Alonso waiting that extra 10 seconds and getting the count down from his massager stationed on the pitwall, says it all. And if that's not enough, the sight of Ron Dennis frog marching the massager from the pit lane leaves very little room for interpretation.

Alonso knew he shafted his team mate, and his body labguage in the post race conference made this plain to me, at least. BUT, I think the argument that Lewis hamilton started the whole thing about the fuel burn off leader was not good just hte same. In the final analysis, Ron Dennis giving that BS to the Stewards didn't help.

[Valve Bounce]

Valve, I think that it's not about the fuel to start the race with. The cars start the race with the same fuel they had at the beginning of Q3. The point of the extra lap is to do the last lap with a few kilos less in the car.

.


Sorry, cannot lah!! One guy must do an extra lap in the first stint - the two cars cannot come in on the same lap otherwise one car must queue up behind the other.

[tinchote]

Sorry, cannot lah!! One guy must do an extra lap in the first stint - the two cars cannot come in on the same lap otherwise one car must queue up behind the other.

McLaren wants us to believe that's the case. Somehow the other teams don't seem to have that problem.

But I think it's not true, Valve. A tyre change takes about 4 seconds or less(and they don't refuel in Q3). So it is enough to have your cars separated by a few seconds to do consecutive pit stops.

[Fallingwater]

I think that Alonso waiting that extra 10 seconds and getting the count down from his massager stationed on the pitwall, says it all. And if that's not enough, the sight of Ron Dennis frog marching the massager from the pit lane leaves very little room for interpretation.
It was explained that Ron wanted the massager right beside him when the pilots exited their cars, to calm him(FA) down while he(RD) would talk to Lewis, which is sort of what we saw. That only means that RD thought Alonso had every reason be angry. The pleasant conversation between Ron and Lewis brings further evidence into that theory.


I think the argument that Lewis hamilton started the whole thing about the fuel burn off leader was not good just hte same. In the final analysis, Ron Dennis giving that BS to the Stewards didn't help.
They wanted to avoid the penalty of team orders (which apparently affect qualifying now) if they admitted that the wait was the punishment for disobedience. That's why they came up with all that bs about traffic.
The fact tha Alonso reached the start line 0.6 before the session was over, is for me another indication that either 1)He is a god 2)He waited more than he actually wanted to in the pits, and those team orders almost cost him that lap too.
Once again, I insist the whole problem was not just the blocking, but the fact that Alonso was able to outperform Lewis on the same amount of laps. It would have probably gone unquestionned if Lewis had kept P1. Imo.

[schmenke]

The current Q3 session is ridiculous. As Valve mentioned, the first 11 minutes is merely a chance for us to walk the doggie or, as in my case, to perform my morning toilet functions and then perhaps grab another cup of coffee.
This latest incidnet is just an example of why the Q3 qualiy system should be changed to a single hot lap shootout, which is what it essentially is already :mark:

[Valve Bounce]

McLaren wants us to believe that's the case. Somehow the other teams don't seem to have that problem.

But I think it's not true, Valve. A tyre change takes about 4 seconds or less(and they don't refuel in Q3). So it is enough to have your cars separated by a few seconds to do consecutive pit stops.

Sorry, we are talking at cross purposes. The whole schemozzle started about that extra lap of fuel that can be put back into thte car after Q3 so that one car has that extra lap in the first stint of the race.

I share your views about Q3 totally. It only takes 4 seconds to change the tyres, and both cars would have had the same amount of fuel for the last hot lap in Q3. The car that does one extra lap during Q3 can put back one more lap of fuel into the car before the race. It was Alonso's turn to do one more lap in Q3 so that he can pit one lap after Lewis during the race.

Why the heck was it necessary to hold Alonso for 20 seconds? let alone an extra 10 seconds after that? Only one car was going to do a final hot lap at that stage - Kimi. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get a gap for Alonso to get a free run for that final hot lap. It was at this stage that McLaren started to dig their own grave for this farcical Q3.

Why don't the other teams have this problem/issue?

I have already said before that the extra lap in the first stint is not that great an advantage as it means the car has to start heavier and race heavier for the entire first stint.

It does make one wonder "what the hell were they thinking??" :confused:

[Valve Bounce]

The current Q3 session is ridiculous. As Valve mentioned, the first 11 minutes is merely a chance for us to walk the doggie or, as in my case, to perform my morning toilet functions and then perhaps grab another cup of coffee.
This latest incidnet is just an example of why the Q3 qualiy system should be changed to a single hot lap shootout, which is what it essentially is already :mark:

What I have been saying all year. Q3 is a staged procession for the first 12 minutes; what the hell for? Let each team have two hot laps in Q3, (that's 6 laps altogether) and that would sort out all this nonsense, and make for a much better Q3.

[Hawkmoon]

What I have been saying all year. Q3 is a staged procession for the first 12 minutes; what the hell for? Let each team have two hot laps in Q3, (that's 6 laps altogether) and that would sort out all this nonsense, and make for a much better Q3.

I say let them do as many laps as they like. With only 10 cars on the track. and the 10 fastest at that, the chances of getting blocked are much less than when we had 26 cars all going for it at the same time. The drivers just got on with it back then. Now it's a bloody great whinge-fest.

There's a reason that McLaren got into this mess and that's because they are so bloody analy-retentive about "optimising" abso-bloody-lutely everything! The other teams just don't care that much whether they start their last flying laps 1 second before the flag drops or 10 seconds before. Not McLaren. There might be more rubber laid down on the track in the last 10 seconds and that could mean that the "optimal" lap time will be 0.000000001 seconds faster and so it is imperative for reasons of optimising the full potential of the car that the last lap is commenced 1 second before the flag drops to end the session!

Ron Dennis is so uptight that, in the words of Ferris Bueller, if you stuck a lump of coal up his backside, in two weeks you'd have a diamond!

[ioan]

Of course I can. McLaren said, in writing, to the stewards that the delay to relaunch FA to the track was due to the fact that they were waiting for a break in traffic. The stewards checked the data and found that during those 20+10 seconds that FA was standing in the box, there was only one car on the track. Thus, there was no need to wait: they were lying.

Precisely because they lied, is that they got the penalty.

In any case, obstructing a driver during qualifying is an action that is penalized by the rules, and that's precisely what FA did. And it doesn't matter that he did it to his teammate, he did it to his main competitor.

I subscribe to this! :)

[Valve Bounce]

I say let them do as many laps as they like. With only 10 cars on the track. and the 10 fastest at that, the chances of getting blocked are much less than when we had 26 cars all going for it at the same time. The drivers just got on with it back then. Now it's a bloody great whinge-fest.



The reason I have suggested giving them 2 hot laps, one of which is to be run in the first half of Q2 is so that we don't get the old situation of nobody running on the track until the last few minutes of Q3. I felt the reason that the current procession was organised was so that the TV cameras would be showing cars circulating during the whole of Q3.

So, OK. If you want to allow as many hot laps, then stipulate that one must be run in the first 4 minutes, the next in the second 4 minutes and the remaining hot lap in the last 4 minutes of Q3.

[Flat.tyres]

I subscribe to this! :)

Guessed you would ;)

I dont have tre transcripts of what McLaren said but if this were the case, then its obvious that McLaren were either covering their own butt or Alonso's.

Was Alonso acting on his own or was it Mclarens idea. Rons reaction suggests it was Alonso ;)

What do you think and if it was Alonso, should Ron have covered or thrown him to the Dogs.

[Valve Bounce]

Guessed you would ;)

I dont have tre transcripts of what McLaren said but if this were the case, then its obvious that McLaren were either covering their own butt or Alonso's.

Was Alonso acting on his own or was it Mclarens idea. Rons reaction suggests it was Alonso ;)

What do you think and if it was Alonso, should Ron have covered or thrown him to the Dogs.

I suspect that the 20 seconds was Ron's idea, and the extra 10 seconds was Alonso's.

[ArrowsFA1]

Interesting views from DC (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61523) about the penalties handed out to Alonso & McLaren:

"Like many others in the pitlane I am first and foremost a fan of the sport, so I was just as fascinated as you guys by the developing rivalry between Alonso and Hamilton after qualifying in Hungary.
"But a number of us inside F1 circles were also left wondering how the stewards came to decide on the punishment meted out to Alonso and McLaren.
"Why, for instance, was McLaren singled out for punishment while Ferrari wasn't pulled up for failing to put fuel in Felipe Massa's Ferrari? Didn't that hamper Felipe's chances in qualifying as well?
"Certainly everyone I have spoken to, both within the paddock and friends that I have outside the sport who are fans, are flabbergasted by how some of F1's rules and regulations are enforced.
"It's bit difficult to follow the sport when you find there isn't really a consistent set of criteria for how penalties are applied.
"Having a permanent FIA steward, Tony Scott-Andrews, has improved things, because he knows the personalities involved and that allows him to make a more even judgement.
"But even so it's important for F1 to be more consistent and transparent in applying penalties."

[Flat.tyres]

Interesting views from DC (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61523) about the penalties handed out to Alonso & McLaren:

he's not the only one :confused:

[tinchote]

I find it hard to understand DC's views. Alonso was punished for impeding a competitor. Does he think that's ok? :confused: Maybe people who subscribe to this idea think that because they are teammates the rules are not the same?

As for the punishment to McLaren, as I said in my view they were penalized because they lied to the stewards to protect their driver. That has nothing to do with making a mistake.

[markabilly]

I find it hard to understand DC's views. Alonso was punished for impeding a competitor? Does he think that's ok? :confused: Maybe people who subscribe to this idea think that because they are teammates the rules are not the same?

As for the punishment to McLaren, as I said in my view they were penalized because they lied to the stewards to protect their driver. That has nothing to do with making a mistake.
Neither maclaren nor FA were punished for lying--the official staement says that their explanations were not accepted.

The investigation was whether MClaren and/or FA impeded another driver from taking his shot at the pole....read it carefully

The conclusion was that they did so impede, and the explanations were not accepted as put forth by both

[truefan72]

I find it hard to understand DC's views. Alonso was punished for impeding a competitor. Does he think that's ok? :confused: Maybe people who subscribe to this idea think that because they are teammates the rules are not the same?

As for the punishment to McLaren, as I said in my view they were penalized because they lied to the stewards to protect their driver. That has nothing to do with making a mistake.

Tinchote, well said

That is too logical and straightforward for the detractors here. As for DC, all he has left in his F1 career is to provide the media with soundbites, in thinly veiled attempt to keep himself relevant.

[Flat.tyres]

I find it hard to understand DC's views. Alonso was punished for impeding a competitor. Does he think that's ok? :confused: Maybe people who subscribe to this idea think that because they are teammates the rules are not the same?

As for the punishment to McLaren, as I said in my view they were penalized because they lied to the stewards to protect their driver. That has nothing to do with making a mistake.

I see your point Tinchote. McLaren have to watch their step a bit at the moment with Stepneygate and everything. they might not have done anything wrong themselves but in peoples minds, accusations stick much easier than evidence.

IF, Ron covered for Alonso then it was understandable but illadvised if you ask me but I imagine Ron wants to support both drivers equally and doesnt want to alienate Freddie by letting the Stewards deal with him alone.

I think that Lewis has been torn off a strip for starting this episode but Freddie should have let Ron deal with this later rather than take the law into his own hands. drivers are a single minded bunch but you need to let the team sort these things out rather than in public but being fair, I can understand why Freddie did what he did afterwards.