Alonso prevents Hamilton from completing a crusial lap.

[tinchote]

However the media weren't happy, the fans weren't happy something had to be done. Hours of discussions were held and a verdict was reached, no action would be taken, or was it? Bizarrely Alonso is pushed back 5 places, and McLaren are excluded from scoring championship points. Many feel happy with this verdict as Hamilton is on pole and he is the current media darling (at least in the British press). McLaren have publicly blamed no one except Hamilton, yet he escapes punishment and everyone else is penalised. No doubt the Spanish media will cry foul and bring up last years stewards decision at Monza...


It seems that your logic says that an unsporting act against your teammate is not unsporting because he is in the same team? Apparently LH dissobeyed team orders. I have never found anyone that considers disobeying team orders as an unsporting act. So the only one to blame here is Alonso.

Or maybe you are saying that vengeance is ok? So if a driver does something to another, then at the next opportunity the offended driver should take revenge?

The only mistake in the stewards decision is to demote Alonso only five places (a decision with no precedent that I know of).

[Ian McC]

So naughty Lewis decides once again (after Monaco) not to follow "team requests", and McLaren again pay the price :dozey: :laugh:


Sorry Donks, this was all of your boys own making

[nikc]

I wonder if alonso hadn't delayed, hamilton would make it to another hot lap?
I saw it live and it was too close anyway.

If they counted it down to 6sec opportunity (10sec alonso's delay minus about 4sec tyre change), they had it coming.

[truefan72]

If everything that has been said is to be considered this is the way things are...


Either way McLaren were one two on the grid and looking set for a one two and 18 points. The problems in qualifying were internal and did not benefit or harm the chances of any of the other competitors outside of the team and any action within the team could be taken as was seen to be appropriate.

.


At the end of the day, Formula 1 is not a team sport. that is A1GP. It is about 22 competitive drivers trying to vye for the WDC, The WCC was added on later as an extra way to reward teams for their overall efforts. Impeding a driver doesn't matter teammate or not. Over the years, I have grown weary of this "team" talk and what's best for the "team" etc. The teams' success is/should be a by product of the individuals accomplishment not the other way around. Essentially, that's what's wrong with F1 nowerdays, they make decisions that benefit the WCC more than the individual WDC. from a hiring to a strtegy point etc. I beleive Sir Frnak Williams is the only principle out there who has gone on the record stating that it is about winning the WDC in his teams colors rather than the WCC.

I doubt very much that if a McClarne driver were to win the WDC and Ferrari win the WCC we would be praisng Fewrrari for the great job and giving them all the ink. We would be focusing on the WDC and thinking of how Ferrari lost it etc.

[tinchote]

At the end of the day, Formula 1 is not a team sport. that is A1GP. It is about 22 competitive drivers trying to vye for the WDC, The WCC was added on later as an extra way to reward teams for their overall efforts. Impeding a driver doesn't matter teammate or not. Over the years, I have grown weary of this "team" talk and what's best for the "team" etc. The teams' success is/should be a by product of the individuals accomplishment not the other way around. Essentially, that's what's wrong with F1 nowerdays, they make decisions that benefit the WCC more than the individual WDC. from a hiring to a strtegy point etc. I beleive Sir Frnak Williams is the only principle out there who has gone on the record stating that it is about winning the WDC in his teams colors rather than the WCC.


I agree with that, but as far as I can tell, FW has always said that he cared for the WCC.

[Ian McC]

I wonder if alonso hadn't delayed, hamilton would make it to another hot lap?
I saw it live and it was too close anyway.

If they counted it down to 6sec opportunity (10sec alonso's delay minus about 4sec tyre change), they had it coming.


Hamilton came out into the way of Kimis flying lap, as his tyres hadn't warmed up he was not up to top speed and had to move over. If he hadn't been held up he would of made it round just fine.

[race aficionado]

For Ron Dennis it's pay back time. What comes around goes around . . or whatever that saying is, . . . . you reap as you sow - the universal law of cause and effect.

i have my grudges with him from the JPM days but that is another issue . . .

RD then brought FA in just as Renault and the FA fans were celebrating a World Championship. I thought they should have waited a while to give the news but again that was their decision and what do I know - I just react to what I saw.

Then RD brings in his young gun, who he has been caring for and preparing for this big moment and kaboooom! The Lewis Hamilton era begins with a bang!. Vary good for F1 and it's fans, no question about that.

Also to boot, suddenly the Macs are up to the challenge and don't go kaboom and actually win races - fast and reliable and with two top drivers.

Ron should be in heaven and rightly so and suddenly it all falls apart. We knew there were rumblings and discord in the ranks but to see what happened today and the way Ron Dennis handled it . . .
what can you say . . .

His enemies must be having a wild party as they celebrate his demise and us fans are left with a sour taste about it all.

pretty stupid in my opinion.

What a mess.

:s mokin:

[tinchote]

Hamilton came out into the way of Kimis flying lap, as his tyres hadn't warmed up he was not up to top speed and had to move over. If he hadn't been held up he would of made it round just fine.

To add to that, when LH left the McLaren's box, there were 1:26 left in the session. With 10 more seconds, that would have been enough.

[DonnieDarco]

Exactly, these teams routinely count drivers in by seconds, they knew how much time Hamilton needed to make it.

[Marbles]

Once again, let's recap Alonso's move in pitlane as described here in this thread:

"pure genuis"
"clever"
"smart, bravo Alonso"
"smart move"
"amazing"

There was one major thing, for me anyways, that separated Alonso from M. Schumacher. Not anymore.

So the parent gets caught in a lie trying to cover for his kids.

[kusha]

Hi everybody!

I'm new in this forum. I'm from Spain, so excuse me if my English is not correct, but I'll try.

I honestly think it wasn't necessary Alonso's action. It has damaged his reputation, but, maybe it was not HIS personal decission. If You can see the video again, You'll see Alonso moves his head to the engineering position as asking explanations for what was happening. I think it was a decission of the engineer and not Alonso's.

I think Alonso and Hamilton are great racers, maybe the best right now. I love they both fighting for the pole position or in race. It reminds me past times like in the 80's with Senna and Prost. That's good for the F1. But rivalries must be taken on race, not on pit-stops.

I know many people in Spain think hamilton is McLaren's "beauty girl", and maybe it's true, but Alonso has to drive and forget affairs or who is more loved inside the team. Hamilton is british, and MacLaren too, it's normal they would prefer a british winning races. But I'm sure MacLaren also like Alonso inside the team. I'm Spanish, and I do prefer Alonso win than Hamilton. But I don't hate Hamilton. I think we have a new Prost-Senna in F1 and that's great.

I remember Romario, the brazilian. He was hated by everybody and attacked because of his "sweet" trainings and nighty partys, but in field, didn't matter him people's opinions, he played always as a great warrior. Alonso must do something similar tomorrow and next races. Same must do Hamilton, of course.

[Valve Bounce]

i was not talking about the stewarts , i was talking about your knolwledge
you seem to know a lot about what is going on inside the McLaren team .
And by the way , Alonso is a great driver !!!!!

Well, if you bothered to read the FIA release and Ron Dennis's lame excuses to the Stewards then you, also, would know what is going on inside the McLaren team.
Don't blame others if you are too lazy to read the releases.

[markabilly]

"Reference to the circuit map shows that at the time Alonso was told he would be held for 20 seconds there were but 4 cars on the circuit, his own and those of Fisichella, Hamilton and Raikkonen. All but Raikkonen entered the pits such that there can have been no necessity to keep Alonso in the pits for 20 seconds waiting for a convenient gap in traffic in which to leave."

Fia statement http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61373

So the track was cleared!! Alonso shouldn't have waited 10 sec to leave!!
there was a reson for holding FA in the pits for 20secs had to do with hurting FA by leaving him the chance of one less lap, but FA took exception. Seems to me that the ruling is quite fair as to RD

hahahahahaha

[Valve Bounce]

is that how you read it. :)
Well, that's Ron Dennis's convoluted take on it. He was talking bollocks because Lewis was fastest in Q2 and merrited to start Q3 ahead of Alonso. The guy just couldn't get his lies straight. I think Donk was taking the piss out of Ron.

[markabilly]

see the admissions of quilt by Lewis--by directly disobeying team orders-

FA WAS SUPPOSE TO BE LAST OUT OF PITS
and so he was....but now punished because thart was deemed unsporting like behaior...gee that just gets weirder and weider..RD now blames LH for the whole problem...geeazzaass not that is a bunch of NS (nonsense)

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/070804225129.wn94e73q.html

hahahaha!!haha!!

[markabilly]

Earlier Saturday, Dennis had blamed Hamilton for the controversy and claimed the Briton defied team orders.
Dennis had said that Alonso was held back by team engineers because of Hamilton upsetting a pre-arranged strategy.
"
On Saturday, it had been agreed that Alonso would make the final pit stop before Hamilton, but the 22-year-old championship leader disobeyed team orders by not letting the Spaniard pass him.

According to Dennis, the resulting confusion led to the situation where Hamilton did not exit the pits in time to challenge Alonso's late fastest lap.
"They were out of sequence because Lewis should have slowed and let Fernando past. And he didn't. He charged off," said the McLaren chief.
"In this instance, it was Fernando's time to get the advantage of the longer fuel burn. The arrangement was, OK, we're down at the end of the pitlane, we reverse positions in the first lap. That didn't occur as arranged. That was somewhat disappointing and caused some tensions on the pitwall.
"We were, from that moment on, out of sequence because the cars were in the wrong place on the circuit and that unfolded into the pit stops. It complicated the situation into the result, which was Lewis not getting his final timed lap."
Hamilton admitted that he did disobey the team orders but he felt that there had still been enough time for both he and Alonso to squeeze in the extra lap.
"I didn't want to mess up my opportunity by changing places or whatever there was to do, and be open to being overtaken by Kimi (Raikkonen) and losing my place," said the Briton.
"Then it would have not allowed me to get an extra lap. So that's why we had the disagreement, because I didn't agree with it and I didn't do what they wanted me to do."

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/070804225129.wn94e73q.html

[markabilly]

It seems that your logic says that an unsporting act against your teammate is not unsporting because he is in the same team? Apparently LH dissobeyed team orders. I have never found anyone that considers disobeying team orders as an unsporting act. So the only one to blame here is Alonso.

).
FA disobeyed team orders cause he did not go when he was suppose so as to delay another driver. LH disobeyed team orders so as to delay another driver. The problems is what is good for one should be GOOD for both, and both should pay the price for messing with each other...and then RD probably came up with this stroy to try to save himself and the team...did not work well at all....

[osg]

Markabilly..... hillbilly, whatever your name is.........

The penalty is set, FIA has spoken. End of Story. Trying to force your apparent knowledge onto the more sensible here is not gonna fly.

Time for Fernando to "man up" and show us how much of a champion he is by driving past all and sundry to win tonight, rather than bitching and moaning about his place in the team and the injustices that are apparently being carried out against him.......

my guess is he'll pull a kamikaze move and get 0 points...... he's struggled this year under pressure, can he prove me wrong?

[markabilly]

Markabilly..... hillbilly, whatever your name is.........

The penalty is set, FIA has spoken. End of Story. Trying to force your apparent knowledge onto the more sensible here is not gonna fly.

Time for Fernando to "man up" and show us how much of a champion he is by driving past all and sundry to win tonight, rather than bitching and moaning about his place in the team and the injustices that are apparently being carried out against him.......

my guess is he'll pull a kamikaze move and get 0 points...... he's struggled this year under pressure, can he prove me wrong?


Hamilton, the 22-year-old from Stevenage, had exchanged angry words with his team boss Ron Dennis as he returned to the pits, reportedly saying: “Don’t ever f****** do that to me again!” Dennis replied: “Don’t ever f****** speak to me like that again!” Hamilton delivered a final riposte: “Go f****** swivel!”

[markabilly]

Not only did he announce that he directly disobeyed the pit stop strategy so as to give himself an advantage..in an attempt to "impede FA from having the final la, because he did not agree to it (so much for your "sporting behavior" ), he told off RD over the radio!!Hahaha

("Hamilton, the 22-year-old from Stevenage, had exchanged angry words with his team boss Ron Dennis as he returned to the pits, reportedly saying: “Don’t ever f****** do that to me again!” Dennis replied: “Don’t ever f****** speak to me like that again!” Hamilton delivered a final riposte: “Go f****** swivel!” )

Yeah I am sure you hamie lovers just hate seeing the ugly coming squirming out.......

[VkmSpouge]

FA disobeyed team orders cause he did not go when he was suppose so as to delay another driver. LH disobeyed team orders so as to delay another driver.

When did he delay another driver?

[tinchote]

Markabilly..... hillbilly, whatever your name is.........

The penalty is set, FIA has spoken. End of Story. Trying to force your apparent knowledge onto the more sensible here is not gonna fly.



Don't bother, just put him in the ignore list as most of as are doing.

[F1MAN2007]

Long time ago in one thread I said that Ron and Mclaren made a big mistake which will cost him not only constructor's championship but also the best drivers out there. And today was the case where they couldn't control the situation.

If you say that both drivers are equal, never ask one of them to slow down so that the other one can pass him. One of the drivers didn't respect the team order, then let drivers rule their game.

Ron never learned a lesson from the time of Prost and Senna, hope this time he will learn it, but I am afraid it is too late for him and he is going to lose important constructor's points which will be a nice price to pay for their stupid mistake they have done from the start of this season.

[N. Jones]

Are McLaren & Ferrari feeling the pressure of Stepneygate???
I sure seems like it to me. This has become the most wild and wierdest F1 season in a very long time.

[Mifune]

I think part of the problem is that Alonso wants the kind of absolute devotion of the team that Schumacher had at Ferrari/Benetton, but i think he doesn't appreciate that Schumacher built that himself with networking, colleagues and a LOT of hard work, Alonso expects all that to be just given to him. Who knows, maybe Ron kind of intimated that when he signed him, "don’t worry mate green rookie team mate, all our resources, you’ll walk it!"
Lewis but a spanner in that, and how Alonso has reacted has seriously disappointed me, in my opinion at this stage Alonso is the better driver, no doubt, my money would be on him to take the championship, but the frankly childish persecution complex that he is developing is the thing that will hinder him most, his problem is not Lewis Hamilton, but how HE reacts to Lewis Hamilton.
Alot of what he says, is just the kind of stuff you keep to yourself and work out in your own way, the team are British my team mate is British blah blah ... so what! fight through that, inspire the team to your cause, have a quiet word with Ron, or spend more time socially with them whatever, don't whine to the press, that will only alienate you further from them.

i used to admire Alonso’s resilience under pressure, and as he matured i thought that resilience would grow into a kind Senna/Schumacher like self belief, but he seems more fragile than ever, i see him back at Renault within 2 years max, Renault recently committed a lot resources to f1 (should have done that a year or two ago, they’d still have Alonso then!)

as for Ron not criticizing Alonso directly and putting some blame on Hamilton, well he has to, he’s between a rock and a hard place, im sure he paid a lot of money for Alonso's services, and he has to at least try and keep him sweet.

For the qualifying incident specifically I won't say who's to blame or whatever there's no point, the folk who like one guy over another will always chant for their driver regardless of fact or new information. I'll just say that i am really disappointed in Alonso, he has the skill to beat Lewis at this stage of their careers, i wish he would rely on that alone, and work harder to bridge the gap between himself the team.
that said, F1 is more entertaining if they hate each other than if they like each other, and its all about the drama isn't it?

[Kevincal]

Hamilton jock holders = "blah blah blah" ... This is the most ridiculous penalty ever given in motor racing... Both cars would be on the front row REGARDLESS of how long Fernando was in the pits...why the hell there is any penalty is complete bull****. FA was ordered to idle in pits until a good opening, yet FA gets a penalty..what kinds of bull**** is going on really...the FIA only seem to care about mixing things up to get attention to F1 it seems, they could care less about honor I guess... I wish FA could kick everyones ass tomorrow, and his only chance will be the start, cus the track is a ticky tack piece of crap...

[markabilly]

I
that said, F1 is more entertaining if they hate each other than if they like each other, and its all about the drama isn't it?


Weell now, finally someone besides me, realizes that is all about entertainment!!!

From reading too many posts that treat this silly stuff as though spying on other teams and sitting in the pits as though we were talking nuke war, thermonuclear weapon technology sold to terriorists, poeple being murdered and watergate.., with as a rabid blind basis as could expressed for their driver

Just "pro fesionail wersrtling" that is all it is about, but me, well I never ever would have thought that LH would be the one bitting the hand that feeds and fed him, and then benefitting from this mess he apparently created, and seeing FA pay the price for it.....(and I do say apparently, because all we know is what we read in the newspapers, and hell, not even the participants in the actual events may know the truth) :vader: :vader:

[markabilly]

The full transcript of their decision is as follows:

During the final minutes of qualifying, the car driven by Fernando Alonso remained in its pit stop position at the completion of his pit stop notwithstanding the fact that his teammate Lewis Hamilton was waiting immediately behind him to commence his own pit stop. The delay prevented Hamilton from being able to complete his final flying lap of qualifying.

The Team Principal, together with the team manager and both drivers were called before the Stewards and asked to explain their actions. Reference was made to video and audio evidence. The facts and the explanation given by the team are as follows:

At the commencement of the third period of the qualifying practice it had been agreed within the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes Team ("The Team") that Fernando Alonso would leave the pit exit ahead of Lewis Hamilton in order to benefit from the possibility for purposes of fuel burn allowance of being able to complete an additional lap.

In the event, the car driven by Lewis Hamilton arrived at the pit exit before that of Fernando Alonso and when the pit lane opened he left in front of Alonso. The team required Hamilton by radio communication to allow Alonso to pass in order that he might endeavour to complete his extra lap. Because of the proximity of the Ferrari driven by Kimi Raikkonen, however, Hamilton declined to allow Alonso to pass despite repeated requests from the team to do so.

Reference to the radio communications passing between the team and its two drivers shows that the team told Hamilton at 14:56:44 to "box this lap" and required him to do a "hard in lap" but advised him some 32 seconds later to "slow the pace a little, just lose a couple of seconds before the end of the lap because Fernando is pitting in front of you."

At 14:57:34, just 18 seconds later Alonso was told that when he pitted "we are going to hold you for 20 seconds."

At 14:57:46 Alonso's car arrived at his pit stop position, his tires were changed and the jacks removed just 6 seconds later. The car then remained in position from 14:57:52 to 14:58:12 when the signal known as the "lollipop" was raised indicating that the driver was free to leave.

By this time Hamilton's car had arrived and stopped immediately behind that of Alonso. Alonso, instead of leaving his pit in order that his team-mate Hamilton could complete his pit stop, remained in position for a further 10 seconds. He then left the pit lane in sufficient time to reach the Control Line before the end of qualifying, completed a flying lap in which he set the fastest time and secured pole position.

Because of the delay caused by Alonso, Hamilton was unable to complete his pit stop in time sufficient to enable him also to complete a flying lap.

The team were asked to explain why having indicated to Hamilton that he must stop at his pit on the next lap, they then informed Alonso whilst he was still on the track that when he also pitted on the next lap he would be held for 20 seconds.

The team stated that they frequently give estimates as to duration of pit stop to their drivers before they pit and that the reason the car was in fact held for 20 seconds was that it was being counted down prior to release at a beneficial time regard being given to other cars on the track.

Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tires had been fitted to his car. When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20 second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him.

Reference to the circuit map shows that at the time Alonso was told he would be held for 20 seconds there were but 4 cars on the circuit, his own and those of Fisichella, Hamilton and Raikkonen. All but Raikkonen entered the pits such that there can have been no necessity to keep Alonso in the pits for 20 seconds waiting for a convenient gap in traffic in which to leave.

The explanation given by Alonso as to why at the expiration of the 20 second period he remained in his pit stop position for a further 10 seconds is not accepted. The Stewards find that he unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of 5 grid positions.

The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tire change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted.

The actions of the team in the final minutes of Qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally. The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula One Constructors Championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix will be withdrawn.

and I do say apparently, because all we know is what we read in the newspapers, and hell, not even the participants in the actual events may know the truth) :vader: :vader:

[tinchote]

Hamilton jock holders = "blah blah blah" ... This is the most ridiculous penalty ever given in motor racing... Both cars would be on the front row REGARDLESS of how long Fernando was in the pits...why the hell there is any penalty is complete bull****. FA was ordered to idle in pits until a good opening, yet FA gets a penalty..what kinds of bull**** is going on really...the FIA only seem to care about mixing things up to get attention to F1 it seems, they could care less about honor I guess... I wish FA could kick everyones ass tomorrow, and his only chance will be the start, cus the track is a ticky tack piece of crap...


Did you happen to read the statement from the stewards? McLaren claimed that they were waiting for a gap in traffic ("a good opening", as you say). At the time, there was one car in the track :rolleyes:

(Edit: now you can even read it in the previous post)

[Schultz]

Mclaren hasn't had a great reputation of being a harmonious team of late have they? I think these guys are well and trully following in the vein of JPM and Kimi. I think it will hurt them in the long term too. One of them has to go.

[Kevincal]

Did you happen to read the statement from the stewards? McLaren claimed that they were waiting for a gap in traffic ("a good opening", as you say). At the time, there was one car in the track :rolleyes:

(Edit: now you can even read it in the previous post)

Well Alonso needs his space!!! :P ;) He is fast! :D

[tinchote]

Well Alonso needs his space!!! :P ;) He is fast! :D

I guess you're right :laugh:

[F1boat]

Concratulations to all Hamilton fans. Obviously that's the way he will win his championship - with help of FIA, with his team stealing info from Ferrari and with cranes to help him when he f***es his race.
I quit watching F1.

[markabilly]

Concratulations to all Hamilton fans. Obviously that's the way he will win his championship - with help of FIA, with his team stealing info from Ferrari and with cranes to help him when he f***es his race.
I quit watching F1.


I would add telling RD to basically "f-off", ignoring team orders (apparently made because LH was on the receiving end of the "benefits" at Silverstone) and then deciding NO, I don't think I will be doing that...and then FA gets punished because he finished what LH started and tried to steal--THE VERY LAST LAP ON NEAR EMPTY TANKS that was being given to FA, based on what went on at Silverstone, and has now succeeded in getting away with--and for any LH fans, go read the words right out of LH's own mouth as I posted earlier.....chewing on the hand that feeds him...odd thing is that until today, it had become very clear-BASED ON WHAT RD WAS SAYING, that LH was his fav.

[jarrambide]

I blame Bernie :dozey:
Tomorrow it's Nascar for me, this is pathetic :laugh: :p :
Surprise surprise, Ferrari kack out and McLaren get stripped of their points :D
This attitude is so Spanish, if our "hero" does not have a chance of winning we wont watch it at all, but we will have 100s of excuses and talk about so many conspiracy theories. One of the reasons Marca is one of the highest selling "newspapers" in the country.

I never cheered for MS even tough I believed he was one of the greatest (if not the greatest) drivers of all time, he had no sportsmanship at all, he was the kind of guy that would try to cheat his own son to win at monopoly or trivial pursuit, I don´t believe in winning at all costs, I believe you need to have class to be a real champion.

I liked Fernando at the beginning, I was a fan, but I lost my respect for him, he is a great driver, but he is turning out to be a driver without class.

[Hawkmoon]

Bloody hell! 15 pages in less than 24 hours!

Only McLaren could get themselves into a situation like this. :D

Ron must be seeing Article 151 of the Sporting Code in his sleep these days. :laugh:

I find it interesting that McLaren are not appealing Alonso's grid penalty as well as their points penalty. Particularly as the grid penalty is the more immediate one. The points penalty can be sorted out at virtually any time.

[Fallingwater]

I find it interesting that McLaren are not appealing Alonso's grid penalty as well as their points penalty. Particularly as the grid penalty is the more immediate one. The points penalty can be sorted out at virtually any time.That's actually the reason why the position penalty can't be appealed. The points can be added to the WCC even if the decision is taken once the race is over, while the grid position change is final once the cars are out on the track.

[donKey jote]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SB6GFNyDHho&NR=1
Am I ok to post this? If not, I can take it down again.
That´s one hell of a rubber neck Alonso must have :D


This attitude is so Spanish
Is that meant in a despective way ? :laugh:
Just wait for the headlines :p :
Don´t worry, no chance in hell I´ll not watch the race... or Nascar :)
( spot the smilies ;) )

[Valve Bounce]

Hamilton, the 22-year-old from Stevenage, had exchanged angry words with his team boss Ron Dennis as he returned to the pits, reportedly saying: “Don’t ever f****** do that to me again!” Dennis replied: “Don’t ever f****** speak to me like that again!” Hamilton delivered a final riposte: “Go f****** swivel!”
LINK PLEASE!! :D

[donKey jote]

Sorry Donks, this was all of your boys own making

In that case, he should be his own team boss. :)
Who told him how much time he had left, or does he have a stopwatch on his steering wheel? :D
Oh yes, his trainer :dozey: ... a trainer can calculate down to 2 seconds in the heat of the moment, and all cunningly planned either spur of the moment or before Q3 to avoid Ron overhearing it on radio ? ... make him team boss instead :laugh:

[rohanweb]

Concratulations to all Hamilton fans. Obviously that's the way he will win his championship - with help of FIA, with his team stealing info from Ferrari and with cranes to help him when he f***es his race.
I quit watching F1.

I think you are screwed up, and dont like Hamilton..
well tell you what? LH is so good that as a rookie he has been really good to put that car to the very limit to challenge his experienced and over rater fellow drivers on the grid.
this is what makes LH is indeed bloody good.

what happened yesterday is unsportsmanship of Alonso and the FIA is right to punish Him with the 5 place penalty!!! and McLaren team for constructors title because they just losing the watch on managing a great rookie as well as twice world champion.. FIA was 100% right to impose the penalty...
believe it or not.. in another 2 years see if anyone can catch LH.
I bet not.

FA is wobbling against a Rookie ::
FA fans also wobbling a little bit more seeing LH kicking FA's back.


p.s: why the crane is so important to you..? atleast LH kept his engine running eligible him to be put on the track...lets talk about the silly mistakes done by other famous drivers and let alone LH..he is only a rookie this year!

[rwssport]

Well it's certainly going to make for an interesting race tomorrow.

I'd love to know why the team are being punished as well - or has Alonso made some comment about them holding him back when, fom the camera, it looked as if the team ahd done their usual pit stop and raised their arms etc to say go...

Also has Alonso been moved down 4 or 5 places on the grid... Report I saw said 5 places but surely that would put him 6th rather than 5th on the grid...

To be honest, and I'm Scottish - sorry I just never admit to being British, what interests me more for the race is to see whether Massa can retrieve something from the problems he had during qualifying because I usually find, unless it rains or whatever, Hungary is as boring if not more so than Monaco...

[rohanweb]

I never cheered for MS even tough I believed he was one of the greatest (if not the greatest) drivers of all time, he had no sportsmanship at all, he was the kind of guy that would try to cheat his own son to win at monopoly or trivial pursuit, I don´t believe in winning at all costs, I believe you need to have class to be a real champion.

I liked Fernando at the beginning, I was a fan, but I lost my respect for him, he is a great driver, but he is turning out to be a driver without class.

You said it all mate..
100% right.

[Valve Bounce]

FA was ordered to idle in pits until a good opening, ...


That's BS. Why bother coming here and without getting your facts straight, come out with nonsense with heaps of blotted out swearing. Just lok at yourself in the mirror, and swear some more. That should just about see you enjoy the event to its fullest.

[Valve Bounce]

Concratulations to all Hamilton fans. Obviously that's the way he will win his championship - with help of FIA, with his team stealing info from Ferrari and with cranes to help him when he f***es his race.
I quit watching F1.

Goodbye - please shut the door on your way out.

[Valve Bounce]

This attitude is so Spanish, if our "hero" does not have a chance of winning we wont watch it at all, but we will have 100s of excuses and talk about so many conspiracy theories. One of the reasons Marca is one of the highest selling "newspapers" in the country.

I never cheered for MS even tough I believed he was one of the greatest (if not the greatest) drivers of all time, he had no sportsmanship at all, he was the kind of guy that would try to cheat his own son to win at monopoly or trivial pursuit, I don´t believe in winning at all costs, I believe you need to have class to be a real champion.

I liked Fernando at the beginning, I was a fan, but I lost my respect for him, he is a great driver, but he is turning out to be a driver without class.


Actually, SchM tried to run his brother into the pitwall. But I agree with your post and your feelings. I also worshipped Alonso when he qualified that Minardi at Albert Park. But I just cannot like the classless driver that he is turning out to be now.

[rohanweb]

Goodbye - please shut the door on your way out.


haa haa.
I will buy F1Boat a good-bye drink !!!

[Valve Bounce]

haa haa.
I will buy F1Boat a good-bye drink !!!

Shout him a Red Bull :p :

[Mickey T]

to be honest, i don´t have a big problem with it.

on the surface, it´s incredibly unfair.

dig a little deeper and it´s ot.

mclaren takes it in turns for its drivers to get the last pit stop and the last shot at pole. this race, it was alonso´s.

hamilto ignored repeated team radio requests to let alonso through in the fuel burn phase, which would have give alonso another lap of fuel burn off.

he didn´t. he shafted alonso and the team.

what alonso did was simply payback to stop hamilton from getting the final lap he wasn´t entitled to anyway.

his only real mistake was getting caught, and not letting mclaren sort it out internally.

[donKey jote]

Mickey, in your opinion, how much are both Hamilton´s and Alonso´s teams of engineers, mechanics, personal trainers etc involved in such machiavellian decisions... and how much is ultimately down to the driver alone ?

[Ian McC]

Concratulations to all Hamilton fans. Obviously that's the way he will win his championship - with help of FIA, with his team stealing info from Ferrari and with cranes to help him when he f***es his race.
I quit watching F1.

:wave: Bye then :p :

[Hawkmoon]

Personally, if I was Ron Dennis I would sell Alonso's contract for 2008 to another team at the end of the season. They should appoint Hamilton the No. 1 and give the second drive to a reliable journeyman like De La Rosa. McLaren don't need two drivers with such strong personalities. The only reason it worked with Prost and Senna was because McLaren had such an advantage over the other teams that they were no threat.

Today, McLaren don't have that luxury and a civil war won't do the team any good. Hamilton aparently "bleeds" McLaren so why not back him and try and create another Schumacher/Ferrari dynasty?

[RaikkonenRules]

Bloody hell! 15 pages in less than 24 hours!


Damn Right. This is by far the most popular thread I've started. Could we get to 1,000 posts. :)

[Ian McC]

Erm...Lembit Opik.

You threw down the gauntlet, and I've picked it up.


*Scribbles on Beans report card* 3 out of 10, must try harder. Headmasters office, now! :p :

[DonnieDarco]

That´s one hell of a rubber neck Alonso must have :D

Donks, Ron saw him doing it on the pitwall, that's why he went to him and frogmarched him down the pitlane :D There's also footage of Alonso sat there while the lollipop is up, and right before he moves you see him looking across to the pitwall.

You aren't seriously going to claim it never happened, are you? ;) :D

[Robinho]

to be honest, i thought it was dowbn to Alonso and his engineer, and was deliberate, but since the penalty and the Mclaren explaination i'm inclined to belve RD (one of few who does it apears ;) )

i think they should have sorted it out internally, but the stewards have had their say (and on Fisi too) and as i predicted people are all over the boards claiming the FIA favouring Hamilton for the title. it was a harsh penalty, even more so than the Monza incident last year.

BMW must be pi55ing themselves

[donKey jote]

Donks, Ron saw him doing it on the pitwall, that's why he went to him and frogmarched him down the pitlane :D There's also footage of Alonso sat there while the lollipop is up, and right before he moves you see him looking across to the pitwall.

You aren't seriously going to claim it never happened, are you? ;) :D

sorry donnie, right before he moves he´s looking straight ahead, and a couple of seconds before he moves he looks over, but not back to where RTL circled his trainer :)
no way was it a visual signal, and if it were radio, I doubt Ron would be so stupid to try and cover it up knowing the stewards would eventually hear it too :)

[donKey jote]

to be honest, i thought it was dowbn to Alonso and his engineer, and was deliberate, but since the penalty and the Mclaren explaination i'm inclined to belve RD (one of few who does it apears ;) )

i think they should have sorted it out internally,
:up:
they might still do that :D

[Ian McC]

McLarens latest...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61380

Fails to mention anything about the extra 10 seconds, I would guess they are trying to get back the constructor points by saying the 20 second delay was justified, and that would not of held Hamilton up.

[DonnieDarco]

sorry donnie, right before he moves he´s looking straight ahead, and a couple of seconds before he moves he looks over, but not back to where RTL circled his trainer :)
no way was it a visual signal, and if it were radio, I doubt Ron would be so stupid to try and cover it up knowing the stewards would eventually hear it too :)


That's what I said, instead of moving when he was given the ok, he stayed put and only moved when his man on the pitwall gave him the ok to do so, ie, when it was too late for Alonso to get a final lap in! :D You can clearly see him looking over at the pitwall and that's when he moved :D

The thing is, Alonso has a reputation for throwing his toys out of his pram when he doesn't get his own way, he did it at Renault too.

There's no question that Hamilton should have done as he was told, but how many times has he been asked to do things like this, to appease a threatened Alonso? :D

[scaliwag]

Those who are trying to defend FA I say your efforts are bad form.
Here's my take.
(1) RD had two cars on different fuel strategies we all know that, so what FA did must have interfered with the team plan.

(2) several contributors have had the gall the absolute cheek to describe FA's actions as an act of genius, since when did blatant cheating and low cunning become genius?

Regards scaliwag.

[donKey jote]

and that would not of held Hamilton up.

not of what ? :wave: :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Priorat]

I liked Fernando at the beginning, I was a fan, but I lost my respect for him, he is a great driver, but he is turning out to be a driver without class.

My feelings also

[Valve Bounce]

to be honest, I thought it was down to Alonso and his engineer, and was deliberate, but since the penalty and the Mclaren explanation I'm inclined to believe RD (one of few who does it apears ;) )



I wouldn't believe Ron Dennis if he stood on a stack of bibles and told me it was Sunday today - the first thing I'd do is check up on my callendar.

By the way, please go to the chat room and keep that window open, OK?

[donKey jote]

That's what I said, instead of moving when he was given the ok, he stayed put and only moved when his man on the pitwall gave him the ok to do so, ie, when it was too late for Alonso to get a final lap in! :D You can clearly see him looking over at the pitwall and that's when he moved :D
watch it again donnie :D
he moved 3 seconds after he looked over, and made his lap with .6 to spare. If Alonso could plan it like that and execute it so accurately, he is even better than Schu... oh wait, he is anyway :D

[tinchote]

To those surprised about the team being penalized, to me the reason is very simple: they lied to the stewards (by saying that they were waiting for a slot in traffic, when there was only one car on the track).

[markabilly]

Therre can be no dispute and LH openly admits that he started it by openly defying team orders to take away the agreed advantage to be given to FA that was given to LH at Silverstone of giving FA the last lap.

NO doubt this advantage given to LH did not sit well with FA, and was one of the reasons for his later outburst.

FA took that last lap flier, by the joint efforts of the team and him. Again radio traffic proves it.

At the end, before pulling into the pits, LH tells RD..."do not ever f....ing do that to me again.." :eek:
RD says "do not ever f....ing talk like that to me again" and LH responds "go F....yourself swivel" :eek:

Not sure what several or swivel means
:s mokin:

Well now, headphones come off, and while I do not like RD, employees telling their boss to go f yourself, does tend to upset most bosses....

As to the rest, one can only speculate, but THAT MUCH can not be disputed

[WSRfan82]

asslonso's :P move on hamilton was very childish and hes payed the price for it well done to FIA. he cant hack it knowing hamiltons as good if not better than he is im not a mclaren fan but even i can se that aaslonso was acting like a baby and he knows he was

[Valve Bounce]

To those surprised about the team being penalized, to me the reason is very simple: they lied to the stewards (by saying that they were waiting for a slot in traffic, when there was only one car on the track).

Exactly!! :up:

[Fallingwater]

Yeah. The real reason was they didn't want Lewis to get an unrightful last lap. At least that's what they said had happened. But the reasons should be kept inside the team. We know who did the crying again.
Do drivers complain when a certain pit stop makes them lose their position with their teammate? Does FIA investigate these horrible events?
Alonso is used to this kind of treatment from the FIA, which can make his hypothetical third WDC even more valuable than last year's.
I'll repeat the question again, in case anyone wants to give it a go. Who decides that LH should get to do that last lap? Lewis? McLaren? FIA?

[markabilly]

Yeah. The real reason was they didn't want Lewis to get an unrightful last lap. At least that's what they said had happened. But the reasons should be kept inside the team. We know who did the crying again.
Do drivers complain when a certain pit stop makes them lose their position with their teammate? Does FIA investigate these horrible events?
Alonso is used to this kind of treatment from the FIA, which can make his hypothetical third WDC even more valuable than last year's.
I'll repeat the question again, in case anyone wants to give it a go. Who decides that LH should get to do that last lap? Lewis? McLaren? FIA?


LEWIS of course, and of course FA disagreed and so "left him behind" for a few seconds longer than WHAT RD required......so the FIA has now helped Lewis win another....what a joke...and overruled FA and RD...what a joke....

send Leis to red cow to see if he can beat vettel, my money says NO WAY


And did you notice the lack of celebration from the entire team...only the number one mechanic and "poppa" seemed to enjoying themselves...

[truefan72]

Don't bother, just put him in the ignore list as most of as are doing.
as I've just done :)

[truefan72]

Personally, if I was Ron Dennis I would sell Alonso's contract for 2008 to another team at the end of the season. They should appoint Hamilton the No. 1 and give the second drive to a reliable journeyman like De La Rosa. McLaren don't need two drivers with such strong personalities. The only reason it worked with Prost and Senna was because McLaren had such an advantage over the other teams that they were no threat.

Today, McLaren don't have that luxury and a civil war won't do the team any good. Hamilton aparently "bleeds" McLaren so why not back him and try and create another Schumacher/Ferrari dynasty?

Apparently it is working for them, they lead the WCC by a comfortable margin, have two drivers with multiple victiries and are a clear 1-2 in the WDC. If that is a sign of not coping with two drivers then I'll take it. Ferrari seem to be fine, so are BMW.

frankly it is getting a little tiring to hear this talk fo teams not coping with two good drivers. In your F1 world there would be 11 good drivers and 11 stooges? please, there shoujldn't be #1 in teams. IMO I wish there were more great drivers in F1 and it would be great to see them all battle it out over the season. with all the money teams make for position points, WCC levels, WDC levels, sponsorship and TV coverge of two great drivers each with the possibilty of podiums and GP wins, it makes no sense to try and sell off 1/2 of that equation. For "harmony" between the drivers. All this press ultimately is good for McClsren, Vodafon, and both drivers. I'm sure the sponsors are happy and more looking to pay to be part of the best 1-2 combination in years.

Hopefully more great drivers emerge and change the #1 driver team concept that f! teams have tried to adopt these past years. I honeslty see it changing already. the top 3 teams have very good drivers, equally matched . Let's hope to see more of that please.

[markabilly]

If they played it out in the open, then it would look like team orders and so forth in favor of LH well now ooopps, can not have that..FIA might ban bad PR for mercedes and so forth

ANd you can not tell motormouthH the real plan as he can not keep his trap shut.....
Example:According to The Times, Hamilton stormed up to Dennis saying: "Don't ever f****** do that to me again!"

Dennis replied with: "Don't ever f****** speak to me like that again!"

To which Hamilton said: "Go f****** swivel!"
what an ingrate!!!


The game is called "carrott and the stick"


This deal was clearly done to placate FA as a result of Silverstone...there is all that money from the constructor's championship, and imagine if FA decided to do a Massa, do some sabbitical driving at the back of the field for a few races, unable to pass the great Sato in his recycled honda, for lap after lap....and then Maclarenut slides to third or worse in the CC, no matter how many points and wins by Hamilton....well duuuuhhhh, ther goes thos $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
RD wants to have his cake and eat it TOO

There is no way that RD throws away his investment in LH, the one with "maclareunt in his blood" in favor of the "recycled one" as well as the chance for eternal glory of having him win a rookie Brit WDC in a Brit Maclarenut...but he just has not been drinking his koolaid....shame shame for running his mouth and NOT his brain


Now go drink some RD koolaid, everyone will feel much better :beer:

[SteveA]

Now go drink some RD koolaid, everyone will feel much better :beer:

I doubt anyone outside of NA knows what Kool-Aid is! That glass definitely looks like it contains Guinness!

[markabilly]

I doubt anyone outside of NA knows what Kool-Aid is! That glass definitely looks like it contains Guinness!


There were some religious nut cases (about a thousand or so) who moved from the USA down to somewhere in central or south america, when the big boss decide the world was closing in, so he prepared up a big batch of Kool-aide,(something similar to gatorade or red bull) laced with some cyanide, and had his people drink up.

There was an audiotape, where the reverend was telling the children to "drink your Kool-aid, it will all be better..." seems very appropriate, and hence "Kool-aid" drinkers got their special name (as in folks who are such true beleivers that they will swallow (beleive) anything

[SteveA]

There were some religious nut cases (about a thousand or so) who moved from the USA down to somewhere in central or south america, when the big boss decide the world was closing in, so he prepared up a big batch of Kool-aide,(something similar to gatorade or red bull) laced with some cyanide, and had his people drink up.

There was an audiotape, where the reverend was telling the children to "drink your Kool-aid, it will all be better..." seems very appropriate, and hence "Kool-aid" drinkers got their special name (as in folks who are such true beleivers that they will swallow (beleive) anything

Thanks for the explanation, I (and I suspect many here) did not comprehend your metaphor.

[markabilly]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

talks about how it was mislabelled as Kool aid when it was actually something virtually identical (flavor-aid) and the mass suicide or murder of 900 people in the name of religion :(

[Ian McC]

Alonso has support from back home.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61417


"The RFEA faithfully believes Fernando Alonso's explanation, given in front of the Hungary race stewards, and endorsed by McLaren Mercedes through their representative Ron Dennis."

Ok, so which explanation was that, the one as had been widely quoted that he was being counted down by his race engineer, or the one given to the stewards where he stated he was questioning the choice of tyres.

[markabilly]

Well, what is the point? Both Mclaren and FA were penalized--clearly because per the statement of the FIA, Mcalaren's actions in holding FA there for well over 20 seconds was NOT accepted--they were blocking LH
Then FA is hit with a penalty, because he too, also blocked LH, and the radio traffic explanation was not ceepted on grounds that he should have asked earlier.

The explanation was that there was a countdown from the engineers and then the lollipop goes up, then FA questions as to why there is used tires on his car.....all of which occurred on the radio, duly recorded, and which the FIA said that they did not accept as he should have asked earlier.

It would not really be fair to FA to "unpenalize" McLaren for doing what FA did as well.....esp. hen the other driver set off the chain of events......and they can not reward FA with points after the fact.....so how is FA to benefit??

[donKey jote]

both :D

[Mikeall]

It seems that your logic says that an unsporting act against your teammate is not unsporting because he is in the same team? Apparently LH dissobeyed team orders. I have never found anyone that considers disobeying team orders as an unsporting act. So the only one to blame here is Alonso.

Or maybe you are saying that vengeance is ok? So if a driver does something to another, then at the next opportunity the offended driver should take revenge?

The only mistake in the stewards decision is to demote Alonso only five places (a decision with no precedent that I know of).

No I was trying not to pass judgement on speculation. I'm not saying anything is OK or not. I agree with Anthony Davidson on the grid who said that the matter should be dealt with internally and the FIA need not have stepped in. There is no rule about leaving the pits at any given time. Acting against the best interests of the sport is one thing but maybe such action should only be undertaken if an clarification is requested (or something...)

Personally I think Alonso was clever... I'm not sure if I can trust myself ever again :D

[Mikeall]

At the end of the day, Formula 1 is not a team sport. that is A1GP. It is about 22 competitive drivers trying to vye for the WDC, The WCC was added on later as an extra way to reward teams for their overall efforts. Impeding a driver doesn't matter teammate or not. Over the years, I have grown weary of this "team" talk and what's best for the "team" etc. The teams' success is/should be a by product of the individuals accomplishment not the other way around. Essentially, that's what's wrong with F1 nowerdays, they make decisions that benefit the WCC more than the individual WDC. from a hiring to a strtegy point etc. I beleive Sir Frnak Williams is the only principle out there who has gone on the record stating that it is about winning the WDC in his teams colors rather than the WCC.

Thats really not true motor racing and Formula 1 has always been a team sport. The racing part is the glossy front end that everyone sees. The real work is always done by the teams. Hundreds and thousands of people work long hours and use real intelligence and ingenuity to make the race effort possible. If everyone works for themselves the team can never equal or exceed the sum of its parts. Drivers are part of the team and the world drivers championship is the most important (yet positions are more important in the constructors championship). However back in the old days it was alwasy about the team ensuring the number one driver won the championship. Number 2 or 3 drivers would be expected to accept their role and let the number one through and even give up their car mid race. Obviously F1 is not like that anymore, the public can no longer accept things like that going on depite the fact it is common place in all other forms of motor sport.


I doubt very much that if a McClarne driver were to win the WDC and Ferrari win the WCC we would be praisng Fewrrari for the great job and giving them all the ink. We would be focusing on the WDC and thinking of how Ferrari lost it etc.

Yes maybe but to most people focus on is not the true reality it is only the perceived reality.

In my opinion what is wrong with F1 (at least some of the commercial and regulatory decisions) is that is is too concerned with public opinion and survey results and manufacturing a perceived reality.

[Mikeall]

Sorry that was bit of my ramble, but I'm just really annoyed you don't like the idea of the "team"

[markabilly]

No I was trying not to pass judgement on speculation. I'm not saying anything is OK or not. I agree with Anthony Davidson on the grid who said that the matter should be dealt with internally and the FIA need not have stepped in. There is no rule about leaving the pits at any given time. Acting against the best interests of the sport is one thing but maybe such action should only be undertaken if an clarification is requested (or something...)

Personally I think Alonso was clever... I'm not sure if I can trust myself ever again :D
Revenge yeah fa got good revenge shooting himself in the foot...I think LH was alaughing about that...until penalty time with no points...oooppps

[pino]

Please continue the discussionhere (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119979)