Operation Banner

[fandango]

It's a symbolic thing that 1st August sees the end of the British Army operation in Northern Ireland. It's good news whichever side you are/were on, and let's hope that's the end of that. Blair deserves credit for his part in one difficult war, anyway....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6921702.stm

[BDunnell]

And so does John Major, to give him his due.

It is unpalatable that terrorists have been released from prison, and that some people who some believe may allegedly have assisted in terrorist acts have risen to power as part of the process, but the terrorism is at an end. It proves the value of having taken some very difficult political decisions.

[Donney]

I agree fandango congratulations to everyone involved.

[Mark]

I think congratulations is a bit strong, since we've had decades of bloody conflict in Northern Ireland. But lets all be thankful that it's now one part of the world where you can go about your business in peace (well as much as you can elsewhere in the UK!)

I visted Northern Ireland last year and I hope to go back again soon.

[Donney]

I meant they deserve praise for putting an end to such a horrible conflict, they taught the world a lesson after many years of killing. Some here could learn something about it...

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am glad to see it happen. It is where my ancestors came from and I have always wanted to go back, but I always wondered about going back to an armed camp. Terrorism is a horrible stain that has been in Northern Ireland for too long, and I am glad to see the British Army go home.

I have no idea who to congratulate outside of Blair, but in the end, it is the people in Northern Ireland who have to want it, not the PM....

[Curryhead]

I did 2 tours there in the eighties, must admit, I never thought I'd see this day, so, congratulations all round, all sides and especially, the "normal" everyday people of Northern Ireland, you all deserve it :)

[CarlMetro]

Just because the British army is pulling out doesn't mean that the killings will stop. We seem to think that because there are no huge attacks and next to no media coverage that it's all happy and friendly over there now, sadly this just is not the case.

Police stations still come under mortar fire and sectarian killings and punnishment beatings still happen on an almost daily basis.

I've been to most major cities in Europe and can honestly say that Belfast is the one place I felt the least comfortable in.

Rather than giving the politicians a slap on the back and saying well done, I rather this day be remembered for all of those who have lost their lives during the 38 years of conflict.

[jim mcglinchey]

Thats not strictly true Carl, the level of violence is now no worse than any region of the UK and its alot better than most. There are still sectarian attacks by young people on other young people, but there has not been a sectarian murder for a long time, and most of the ultra- violence is linked to a drug related power struggle amongst loyalist para-militaries.

Mortat bombs? Forget it, those continuity arses couldnt organise a proverbial piss-up.

Jim McGlinchey
ITN News
North Belfast.

[Ian McC]

Well it may not be perfect but at least things have improved a lot over the last few years, we can be thankful for that.

[fandango]

And so does John Major, to give him his due.

It is unpalatable that terrorists have been released from prison, and that some people who some believe may allegedly have assisted in terrorist acts have risen to power as part of the process, but the terrorism is at an end. It proves the value of having taken some very difficult political decisions.


I'm not so sure about Major, myself. I felt he fell into the old British (or English) habit of misunderstanding "the Irish problem", so I reckon he was more of an obstacle in the end than a help.

And yes, it's unpalatable to see people who have killed go free, but I think that works for all sides. What's far worse for me is to see people making money and/or political careers out of this kind of conflict, something to be clearly seen in the Basque country, for example. At least Adams and co were clever enough to balance things and lead their people without getting done in by them, which would have left things in a worse mess.

Anyway, the soldiers can at least try and use their camouflage gear somewhere where they don't stick out so much, or can hope that the people who send them in have half the courage or common sense they have themselves.

[BDunnell]

I'm not so sure about Major, myself. I felt he fell into the old British (or English) habit of misunderstanding "the Irish problem", so I reckon he was more of an obstacle in the end than a help.

I would never give Major the same credit as Blair (or, indeed, the late Mo Mowlam), but as far as I'm concerned he did make a positive contribution to the peace process. However, I do see your point.


And yes, it's unpalatable to see people who have killed go free, but I think that works for all sides. What's far worse for me is to see people making money and/or political careers out of this kind of conflict, something to be clearly seen in the Basque country, for example. At least Adams and co were clever enough to balance things and lead their people without getting done in by them, which would have left things in a worse mess.

I agree with that.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Northern Ireland will only be as good a part of the world as the people there allow it. It has always been in their hands. To stop hating the other guy and learning that only through peace that you can get a head only started to sink in I think when Eire started to really take off economically. When the people in the North realized the bus was leaving them behind metaphorically, I think that put a lot of pressure on people to reevalutate what really matters....

I do know this much though. I don't think Northern Ireland is truly part of the UK or Ireland.....it is unique, and maybe that is why people there are starting to realize. It requires both sides to work together, because neither the Republicans nor the Protestants are going anywhere.

[oily oaf]

Make no mistake the withdrawal of British troops from Ulster is a red letter day for the good people of that troubled province and represents the triumph of simple and reasoned dialogue over the bullet and the bomb.
The jaw-dropping spectacle of Paisley and Adams exchanging handshakes and sharing a joke with Tony Blair in that room at Stormont was almost surreal to a guy like me who has borne witness my entire life to the bitter division and hatred that has blighted this small corner of the UK.

Here's a small and absolutely true anecdote of my own peripheral albeit alarming brush with a few of the protagonists involved in The Troubles.

During the mid 70s I became very friendly with one Michael O Callaghan, a fellow student of the black art of engineering and drinking partner par excellence.
"Irish" Mick as we imaginitively called him was a great fella. Witty, intelligent, too good looking for his own good and an absolute "little divil" with the ladies who he would procure and then jettison with bewildering alacrity.
He was also a staunch Republican and supporter of Sinn Fein who would often regale me with lurid tales of atrocities committed by The Brits on his compatriots. He had a point too.
Now Mick had his digs in Norbury South London and one day invited me over to sample the delights of the local hostelries in that foul hinterland.
After my jabs I met him at one end of London Road and we gradually worked our way back to his flat near Thornton Heath.
When we staggered through the door I noticed 2 other guys watching a small black and white TV.
One was a tall slim Irishman with shoulder length black hair whilst the other was a shorter man with cropped ginger hair and a plethora of tattoos on his forearms.
I was introduced to them both and shook their hands before taking up position on the battered old sofa.
The tall fella was extremely quiet and spoke little whist the ginger one was a gregarious and jovial fella with a broad Southern Irish brogue and a habit of punching you on the arm to emphasise the point he was making.
He presented me with a book on Irish history which he signed "From Eugene" and told me to read it carefully. I still have it to this day.
Eventually we all drifted off to sleep and I left early the next morning after bidding farewell to my new friends.
It wasn't until months later that Mick told me that both men were active members of the IRA and that Eugene was wanted in the province for the shooting of a UDR man.
Even after all these years it still gives me a sense of disquiet when I recall the night when this young Englishman spent the night under the roof of 2 and possibly 3 Republican gunmen.
Funny old world innit?

Next week:
How I attended a kiddies birthday party in a squat in Bayswater where hash cookies were handed out to the adults and which was attended by a number of members of the terrorist group The Angry Brigade.
You think I'm joking don't you?

[fandango]

I think Northern Ireland will only be as good a part of the world as the people there allow it. It has always been in their hands. To stop hating the other guy and learning that only through peace that you can get a head only started to sink in I think when Eire started to really take off economically. When the people in the North realized the bus was leaving them behind metaphorically, I think that put a lot of pressure on people to reevalutate what really matters....

I do know this much though. I don't think Northern Ireland is truly part of the UK or Ireland.....it is unique, and maybe that is why people there are starting to realize. It requires both sides to work together, because neither the Republicans nor the Protestants are going anywhere.

I'm sorry, Mark but I think that is absolute nonsense. The war finished because all sides happened to arrive at a point where they knew they couldn't win, AND all sides had leaders strong and clever enough to move from war to politics, AND there were some patient people working in the background to avoid missing this chance. Ordinary people certainly did not always have the chance for peace in their own hands.

[Mark]

But I think MarkinO has a point in that N.Ireland isn't part of the UK in the same way that Scotland and Wales are, nor is it really part of the rest of Ireland either.

[fandango]

That's getting into a different topic. Should the island of Ireland be re-united as one entity? But how is Northern Ireland not part of the UK in the same way as Scotland, for example?

[BDunnell]

I think Northern Ireland will only be as good a part of the world as the people there allow it. It has always been in their hands. To stop hating the other guy and learning that only through peace that you can get a head only started to sink in I think when Eire started to really take off economically. When the people in the North realized the bus was leaving them behind metaphorically, I think that put a lot of pressure on people to reevalutate what really matters....

I don't think this statement by Mark is wrong at all, fandango, although there is much truth in what you say, too.

I always believed that one of the rather odd comments about the situation in Northern Ireland was that 'the people want peace'. I'm sure that a lot of them did, but nonetheless, as one journalist wrote some years ago, they continued voting along sectarian lines rather than for the Alliance Party, and therefore helping to prolong the conflict until such point as it became clear that there had to be a political solution.

[oily oaf]

That's getting into a different topic. Should the island of Ireland be re-united as one entity? But how is Northern Ireland not part of the UK in the same way as Scotland, for example?

Perhaps he's referring to the fact that the 6 counties are not physically joined to Great Britain just like those foreign jonnies that skulk on The Isle of Wight, Anglesey and the Outer Hebrides biding their time until they break out and overthrow The Great Satan that holds sway in mainland Britain ;)

Of course it's part of the United Kingdom. That is an irrefutable fact.
Hang on though Fanny I'll just check my world atlas to be sure, to be sure, to be sure. :s mokin:

[Malbec]

I think Northern Ireland will only be as good a part of the world as the people there allow it. It has always been in their hands. To stop hating the other guy and learning that only through peace that you can get a head only started to sink in I think when Eire started to really take off economically. When the people in the North realized the bus was leaving them behind metaphorically, I think that put a lot of pressure on people to reevalutate what really matters....


I disagree with this comment too.

What really caused pIRA to reevaluate matters were the successful efforts to infiltrate the group by MI5 to a level where mistrust between cells stifled any successful campaigns as well as a drop off in material support from the eastern side of the Iron Curtain with the end of the Cold War which even funding from the USA couldn't compensate for.

In the past I was acquainted with an Irish guy, a staunch Republican but also anti-violence who had a greater insight than me into what was going on with Norn Iron. When the sanitised version of why the pIRA had laid down their arms to talk came onto the news he laughed and laughed. "Don't you think people there have always wanted peace?" he said. According to him, over the past few years several key senior IRA personnel had simply disappeared whilst abroad, often within Europe. At first the IRA high command had simply assumed these individuals were defecting or heading off to start a new life in crime but the fact that none of these guys resurfaced in any form suggested they were in fact dead. The assumption was that MI5/6 were simply killing key IRA personnel in extra-judicial circumstances and that this total rewriting of the rules together with the knowledge that they had been infiltrated lead them to reconsider their military campaign.

This doesn't take away anything from Tony Blair, he took a serious risk in trusting Sinn Fein to commit to talks without the IRA handing in its weapons first and he pulled it off.

[jim mcglinchey]

...mmm that sounds like the plot of a new Jack Higgins. The Shinners and the IRA weren't undone by covert death squads,( never heard that before in my life ) they just came to the realisation that there was more to be gained in Northern Ireland and, importantly, in The Republic by concentrating on strengthening their political foothold.

[Malbec]

...mmm that sounds like the plot of a new Jack Higgins. The Shinners and the IRA weren't undone by covert death squads,( never heard that before in my life ) they just came to the realisation that there was more to be gained in Northern Ireland and, importantly, in The Republic by concentrating on strengthening their political foothold.

I have to admit I'm sceptical about his assertions too, but I also strongly believe the IRA had been weakened by the collapse of the Eastern bloc and by infiltration via MI5. Without that weakening the desire of the Northern Irish population to strive for peace wouldn't have meant a thing as the attacks would have continued.

[BDunnell]

I have to admit I'm sceptical about his assertions too, but I also strongly believe the IRA had been weakened by the collapse of the Eastern bloc and by infiltration via MI5.

Financially and in terms of access to equipment, yes, but what about in terms of its beliefs and desires? The ongoing terrorist attacks of the last few years of the IRA's military campaign show that it wasn't a spent force.

[Malbec]

Financially and in terms of access to equipment, yes, but what about in terms of its beliefs and desires? The ongoing terrorist attacks of the last few years of the IRA's military campaign show that it wasn't a spent force.

But then its campaign of the 90s was nothing compared to the decade before when they were regularly bombing on the mainland including the Grand Hotel in Brighton, as well as attacking British interests in Germany and elsewhere which showed how cut down their fighting power was.

[fandango]

I don't think this statement by Mark is wrong at all, fandango, although there is much truth in what you say, too.

I always believed that one of the rather odd comments about the situation in Northern Ireland was that 'the people want peace'. I'm sure that a lot of them did, but nonetheless, as one journalist wrote some years ago, they continued voting along sectarian lines rather than for the Alliance Party, and therefore helping to prolong the conflict until such point as it became clear that there had to be a political solution.

Yeah, I used to wonder about that too, but I suppose people vote for more extreme parties when they feel threatened, and paranoia was strong on all sides throughout the Troubles.

[fandango]

But then its campaign of the 90s was nothing compared to the decade before when they were regularly bombing on the mainland including the Grand Hotel in Brighton, as well as attacking British interests in Germany and elsewhere which showed how cut down their fighting power was.

I find that story surprising, about MI5 death squads, but who knows? I always heard that it was the IRA attacks on The City that swung the British Government towards changing their approach. It was all costing too much. And that's not counting the human cost of all those soldiers doing the dirty work where politicians failed....

[BDunnell]

Yeah, I used to wonder about that too, but I suppose people vote for more extreme parties when they feel threatened, and paranoia was strong on all sides throughout the Troubles.

Indeed.

[BrentJackson]

The way I see it, this was far too long in coming. I saw Adams and Paisley joking and just out crapped myself - I figured the two would have wanted to rip the other's throat out with his bare hands.

The troubles have blighted Northern Ireland for far too long, and the sooner it can be put to rest the better.