_HOW_ did FIA investigate McLaren?

[kalasend]

<< Moderator: Please leave this thread seperate because I merely wanted to question HOW FIA approaches the investigation instead of whether they made fair judgement. >>

So exactly in what ways does FIA assume the stolen Ferrari information could be used, such that by not being able to find proof of McLaren being benefitted in those ways, they claim McLaren the team is clear of dishonest acts?

I can see that FIA probably go by the following assertions?

1. Are their chassis/aero devices similar?
2. Do their electronics/software design look alike?
3. Did they change any operational procedures/processes within the team after getting the docs?
4. Was there any "abnormal" change in organizational structure?


What I meant to say is, depending on what kind of info the stolen docs contain, there could be infinite number of ways for McLaren to make use of. What did the FIA really look at and/or question into?

[ioan]

They didn't, nothing was done!
Members of the board stated that McLaren will not be punished more than a week before the hearing! That speaks volumes about how all went.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

good question: i think if the fia revealed exactly what investigative techniques were used, it would go a long way to justifying ther ruling.
We just don't know. And we definately don't know what ALL they factored in.

[Sleeper]

McLaren, the FIA and Ferrari all recieved an affidavit from Mike Coughlan through the High Courts a couple of weeks ago, in relation to the current investigations that Ferrari have instigated, and I suspect that this had a large part in the FIA's decision making processe.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

was anyone (else) deposed?

[raphael123]

If a member of the team broke the rules, yes, McLaren should be punished as a team if they benefitted - the fact they didn't means the ruling, and the punishment was the correct outcome.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, it's One for the Money, Two for the Show, Three to get ready and Go Cat Go!!

By the way, this may be slightly off topic, but I think the Cats will win the Flag this year!! :up:

[markabilly]

The standards that they announced is: Did Mclaren benefit from the cheating? Did McLaren bring the sport into disrepute? The investigation was based on what was presented at the hearing and other documentation and arguments.

Someone said the fact that Ferraie was the party who was really quilty of bringing the sport into disrupte by the use of search warrants and court actions, not McLaren. In other words, if the other team was not making such a fuss, then there would be no controversy and no foul....

Their other argument that this was the solo act of a rogue employee (well er, the chief designer?? is a rogue employee??--it would seem the title of the job would make automatically that argument a little suspect, as it would be one thing if the right wheel tire changer was running around with these papers....)

As to a real investigation of the cars involved and careful examination of the data and changes made to the Mclaren to show a direct correlation between data and car to show whether such a benefit occurred...that never ever happened.... and since it did NOT, then one can really say there is no evidence that the McLaren got faster as a result of the use of stolen data

As Denzel Washington said repeatedly in Training Day, it ain't what you know, but what can you prove...if that is going to be the standard for a penalty to be invoked for possesion of stolen data is that one must prove changes made to the car and the car got faster by use of the data, then a thorough inspection, analysis and testing of the cars is absolutely mandatory...otherwise one can never prove it, and even with such an inspection, one would need the cars in their pre-cheat state and post-cheat state intact for such investiagtion to determine the changes and the effect of the changes---impossible in the absence of a confession of the cuprit--(and is the accused likely to confess with 100s of millions of dollars at stake,hahahah)!!!

well, apply that standard to the presence of drugs in a bike rider's body, then the winner last year of the Tour de France could have never been stripped of his title and all the stuff currently going on, is COMPLETELY without evidentiary support because there is no proof that these substances actually made the rider faster on those particular occaisions compared to how fast he would have been, if the substances had not been there. Proof would have to be based on actual testing of performance of that particular individual...something that would be impossible :s mokin:

Since it ain't what you know, but what can you prove...So establish a standard that is impossible to prove (ie actual benefit in terms of car performance), logic dictates the result must follow absolutely, and NO EVIDENCE of benefit equals no punishment....(I am sure there are some riders wishin that was the standard for bike racing...)

[markabilly]

the original poster asks the best question of all--and provides a good starting point, but betrays the ultimate fallacy involved in this mess. If the ultimate standard is benefit in terms of faster car compared from pre-cheat to post-cheat, then proof will always fail.

It is profoundly simplistic and stupid to say that there is no evidence of benefit in term's of car peformance, therefore the decision is correct. :confused: :confused:

It would be better to assume such a benefit occurred to protect the sport's honesty, the same as in the presence of drugs in the Tour de France where one does NOT prove an actual benefit to the rider in terms of pre-drug (or blood transfusion) performance as it would have been on that day compared to having the drugs in the body......

[wmcot]

<< Moderator: Please leave this thread seperate because I merely wanted to question HOW FIA approaches the investigation instead of whether they made fair judgement. >>

So exactly in what ways does FIA assume the stolen Ferrari information could be used, such that by not being able to find proof of McLaren being benefitted in those ways, they claim McLaren the team is clear of dishonest acts?

I can see that FIA probably go by the following assertions?

1. Are their chassis/aero devices similar?
2. Do their electronics/software design look alike?
3. Did they change any operational procedures/processes within the team after getting the docs?
4. Was there any "abnormal" change in organizational structure?


What I meant to say is, depending on what kind of info the stolen docs contain, there could be infinite number of ways for McLaren to make use of. What did the FIA really look at and/or question into?

Yeah, I would like to see the whole thing made public, sworn affidavit and all. I'd like to see both sides lay their cards out on the table so the F1 fan can judge. No way that would ever happen, though!

[ioan]

Yeah, I would like to see the whole thing made public, sworn affidavit and all. I'd like to see both sides lay their cards out on the table so the F1 fan can judge. No way that would ever happen, though!

I can imagine the McLaren fans going nuts if that ever happens!

[tinchote]

markabilly :up:

There is a lot of politics even in regular justice, where in many cases people's lives are at stake. You can then imagine in a bussiness where the court is tightly linked to the business :mark:

[ioan]

There is a lot of politics even in regular justice, where in many cases people's lives are at stake. You can then imagine in a bussiness where the court is tightly linked to the business :mark:

Especially a court where the ones who's purse is in line are between the judges!

[Flat.tyres]

Yeah, I would like to see the whole thing made public, sworn affidavit and all. I'd like to see both sides lay their cards out on the table so the F1 fan can judge. No way that would ever happen, though!

I think with all the spin and accusations coming out of Italy at the moment, it wouls be prudent to disclose this information so that the facts can be established and Todt can stop his character assassination.

[Valve Bounce]

<< Moderator: Please leave this thread seperate because I merely wanted to question HOW FIA approaches the investigation instead of whether they made fair judgement. >>

So exactly in what ways does FIA assume the stolen Ferrari information could be used, such that by not being able to find proof of McLaren being benefitted in those ways, they claim McLaren the team is clear of dishonest acts?

I can see that FIA probably go by the following assertions?

1. Are their chassis/aero devices similar?
2. Do their electronics/software design look alike?
3. Did they change any operational procedures/processes within the team after getting the docs?
4. Was there any "abnormal" change in organizational structure?


What I meant to say is, depending on what kind of info the stolen docs contain, there could be infinite number of ways for McLaren to make use of. What did the FIA really look at and/or question into?

Actually, they invited the Pink Panther and gave him free reign. However, the only stipulation was that the guilty party cannot be marched off into a paddy field and get shot in the back of his head.

Seemed to work real nice too!!

[nigelred5]

Max; Ron, did you guys steal the ferrari designs?
Ron; no.

Max, did you guys find a new source of unobtanium and an amazing revolution at that huge facility you have constructed?

Ron; uh, yes, we found a new revolutionary new material to dramatically improve our cars overnight, it's called F.M. (f-ing magic)

Max; so no one even looked at the Ferrari documents when developing this years cars your rookie is driving and bringing in record television numbers?

Ron; uh, no.

Max; Ok, I think we can conclude this investigation. Thanks Ron.

[markabilly]

Max; Ron, did you guys steal the ferrari designs?
Ron; no.

Max, did you guys find a new source of unobtanium and an amazing revolution at that huge facility you have constructed?

Ron; uh, yes, we found a new revolutionary new material to dramatically improve our cars overnight, it's called F.M. (f-ing magic)

Max; so no one even looked at the Ferrari documents when developing this years cars your rookie is driving and bringing in record television numbers?

Ron; uh, no.

Max; Ok, I think we can conclude this investigation. Thanks Ron.


No way this is what happenned---it was more like;

Dennis: "How long do you think we need to sit here to make it look like a real hearing with tough questions and thorough investigation?"

Max: " I hope not too long, I have dinner plans....."
Dennis : "me too"

max: "OK now that the important business is taken care of...why did this dumb designer of yours leave the stuff laying around to get found--has he not ever heard of the shredder???"

Dennis: "Was not our fault, we did not go around with subpenas and using search warrants, calling attention to this unfortunate incident"

Max: "sounds good to me, we will have him and that other little snitch in here in a couple of weeks and really screw them real good for their stupidity at getting caught and makin such a mess--who can argue with that, and it won't hurt our revenue at all to squash those little buggers---now about dinner, what you say to a few drinks before we close,... damn we got another threee or four hours to go...does anyone know if harry potter croaks out like a toad or she has him stick around so that old bitty can make more money.....Bernie is so jealous....."

[markabilly]

What Ron Dennis is really thinking:


"You are right, man we did screw up BIG TIME....we were negeligent and did make a mistake when we hired this Mike fellow...we never thought that he would leave stuff like this laying around...if we had known he was that f***ing stupid, we never ever would have hired him"

:s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

It's called Brain Fade: sending your wife to the local copy store to copy documents illegally obtained from Ferrari.

[wmcot]

It's called Brain Fade: sending your wife to the local copy store to copy documents illegally obtained from Ferrari.

Because McLaren wouldn't let him use theirs (can you say "accomplices?")

[janneppi]

Because McLaren wouldn't let him use theirs (can you say "accomplices?")
Assuming of course McLaren not having the money to buy a used printer from a jumble sale with cash...

[ioan]

Assuming of course McLaren not having the money to buy a used printer from a jumble sale with cash...

They will have to account for the money at one moment or another and they couldn't possibly say that they bought new team gear with it.
I mean who would believe them that they bought another few of that ugly garment?

[janneppi]

They will have to account for the money at one moment or another and they couldn't possibly say that they bought new team gear with it.
I mean who would believe them that they bought another few of that ugly garment?
Are you saying that a F1 team wit 150 billion dollar budget can't hide 10-20 grand into let's say marketing expenditures or christmas party? :)
Hell, the team propably spends more on just gray paint for the trucks every year.

[markabilly]

It's called Brain Fade: sending your wife to the local copy store to copy documents illegally obtained from Ferrari.


Well just when I thought things could NOT get any dumber, hot off the press from the mouth of NS himself:

"Someone gave away the designs but it wasn't me. Someone set me up and that person is still within Ferrari," Nigel Stepney said in an interview in Tuesday's editions of Italian daily La Repubblica.*************************************** *****

A mysterious white powder was found on the gas tanks of Ferrari's cars on May 21, six days before the Monaco race, and traces of the powder have reportedly been found in a pair of Stepney's trousers. "I didn't put it there," Stepney told La Repubblica. "They put the powder in my pants pocket while I was taking a shower."

Or so it says in the article----That is the best he has got to say....????....

The article says he has a new job outside F1.

My guess, based on this story, is that he will be ghost writing the next Harry Potter book.......to be called "Harry and the croaking Toad" or maybe a simple auto-bio to be called "Two Too Stupid Designers" who go to Russia to spy on Putin and sell nuke secrets to Iran but get caught at a local copy shop when they run out of money and start asking folks for spare change.......

[ArrowsFA1]

<< Moderator: Please leave this thread seperate because I merely wanted to question HOW FIA approaches the investigation instead of whether they made fair judgement. >>
Just a reminder about why this thread has been left open.