Mclaren cleared....for now *merged*

Just been announced that Mclaren have been cleared for now, but have been told that if any further info comes to light, they'll be banned.

[Daika]

what does further info means? new evidence that contradict them?

what does further info means? new evidence that contradict them?

I heard it on the radio, BBC Sport reporting that if any evidence of Mclaren using/benefitting from the Ferrari documents is found then they are out of F1, but at present they are clear of any wrong doing.

Sounds ok to me.

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA World Motor Sport Council have found McLaren guilty of possession of unauthorised Ferrari documents, but with no evidence that the team had made use of the information, the governing body elected not to punish McLaren for now.
The WMSC said, however, that if in the future evidence would be found to show that McLaren had used the information, they will be called back and face severe penalties, including exclusion from the world championship.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61155

[Daika]

Won't surprise me if Mclaren are thrown out, near the finish. (see tour the france).

I'm sure Ferrari will let things in motion...

[Daika]

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40181

“But if it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite Vodafone McLaren Mercedes back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship," it said.

[gloomyDAY]

How many of you would still watch the rest of the F1 season without McLaren? I don't think I would waste my times. There are just going to be 1-2 finishes by Ferrari, which is boring.

All the action would be at the back of the pack, but all the cameras would be glued on the front-runners. Let me just put this in basic terms, "No McLaren, no care!"

[ArrowsFA1]

Autosport have now updated their story:


Unrelated to the McLaren decision, the FIA also plans to hold a hearing for Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney and McLaren's suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan, to allow them to defend their behaviour in the spy affair.
"The WMSC will also invite Mr Stepney and Mr Coughlan to show reason why they should not be banned from international motor sport for a lengthy period and the WMSC has delegated authority to deal with this matter to the legal department of the FIA," the verdict added.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61155

[F1MAN2007]

Just been announced that Mclaren have been cleared for now, but have been told that if any further info comes to light, they'll be banned.

:bounce: :beer:

[Daika]

How many of you would still watch the rest of the F1 season without McLaren? I don't think I would waste my times. There are just going to be 1-2 finishes by Ferrari, which is boring.

All the action would be at the back of the pack, but all the cameras would be glued on the front-runners. Let me just put this in basic terms, "No McLaren, no care!"

I do, manage fine during 2000 and 2006 when Mclaren won very little. It will be a big lost no doubt but let's not forget for the most part of the last decade Mclaren weren't racing for the titles. So to conclude that ferrari's 1-2 is due to the absent of Mclaren is plain wrong. Renault did won the last 2 seasons, Williams are up and coming and Ferrari have reliabilty concerns.

[ArrowsFA1]

The main thing, and a relief for all fans of F1 whatever team they support, is that a great championship fight can continue on-track :up: :s mokin:

[ioan]

The FIA World Motor Sport Council have found McLaren guilty of possession of unauthorised Ferrari documents, but with no evidence that the team had made use of the information, the governing body elected not to punish McLaren for now.
The WMSC said, however, that if in the future evidence would be found to show that McLaren had used the information, they will be called back and face severe penalties, including exclusion from the world championship.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61155

It seems that Bernie's pockets are the driving force of this "sport" :



"There's been so much talked about this spying nonsense, it's even taking away from what's going on on the track," he added. "I don't like it."

The Briton also ruled out suggestions that the World Motor Sport Council would feel compelled to penalise McLaren if only to appear to be taking action in such a public controversy.

"No," Ecclestone responded. "They only need to be doing something if something's happened that shouldn't have happened - it's just that simple."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61144

I suppose that a championship won by thieves is better than none.

From now on spying is legal in F1! Well done.

[Donney]

I thought you still had hopes in Ferrari....


Anyway we have not been deprived of the most exciting season in a good while.

[I am evil Homer]

It's a fair result...if I steal or de-fraud in my job, the company is liable even if they didn't know i'd done it. If they were complicit in that fraud etc then it's more serious but there's a "lack of evidence"....not that it will stop Ferrair fans moaning.

[Viktory]

ok, fair enough. We have a good championship ahead of us at least. But if they find any evidence of the information being used I hope McLaren burn long and hard for it.

[Ranger]

It seems that Bernie's pockets are the driving force of this "sport" :

Well at least to you, it does. :\

[truefan72]

It seems that Bernie's pockets are the driving force of this "sport" :



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61144

I suppose that a championship won by thieves is better than none.

From now on spying is legal in F1! Well done.

A wholly expected response from the red colored lens of a die hard Ferrari fan who would applaud a Ferrari win no matter the circumstance or manner. And would gleefully wathc 6 cars going around the track just as long as 2 are Ferrari's and finishj 1-2.

Let's see how the investigation concludes before calling anyone thieves.
On that same accord, I guess ferrari won several championships by being cheaters then, Right?

[ioan]

The FIA World Motor Sport Council have found McLaren guilty of possession of unauthorised Ferrari documents...


Sure this means nothing! :rolleyes:

[truefan72]

Sure this means nothing! :rolleyes:

nobody said it meant nothing,

simply that going from there knowing that the circumstances were more complicated, to a blanket cover statement that all at McClaren are guilty and thereby thieves is a stretch that even an olympic gyminst wouldn't make. Such superlatives should be reigned in lest one uses it against you/Ferrari from the period of 2000 to 2006.

As I said, by your standards of evidence, proof and verdicts along with FIA rulings based on this case, a lot of words might come into mind to describe Ferrari's conduct over the afformentioned period.

[ioan]

nobody said it meant nothing,

simply that going from there knowing that the circumstances were more complicated, to a blanket cover statement that all at McClaren are guilty and thereby thieves is a stretch that even an olympic gyminst wouldn't make. Such superlatives should be reigned in lest one uses it against you/Ferrari from the period of 2000 to 2006.

As I said, by your standards of evidence, proof and verdicts along with FIA rulings based on this case, a lot of words might come into mind to describe Ferrari's conduct over the afformentioned period.

So in F1 you can be guilty but you won't get a penalty!
Tell that to Honda (2005) , or to Sato (2007).

Could you tell me what use there is to have rules if they are not enforced? What is the point of the FIA's existence in this case?!

[Hendersen]

This is hardly surprising. Prior to the meeting ever happening we had at least one of the officials and Bernie hismelf saying that, more or less, nothing was going to be done. Bernie has said he would have "pulled strings" in order to get Hamilton a seat in formula one.

Formula one is a bigger joke than the Tour de France is now with half of the riders disqualified for doping.

[Hendersen]

Oh, and let's not forget the BS crane incident that Lewis should have been black flagged on. No way he was getting out of that trap without help and the only way the crane is supposed to help someone is if they have already given up the race. In short, his race should ahve been over regardless if he wanted it over or not. He should have been further penalized for not doing what he was supposed to do, shut off his car and leave the scene. No punishment. Nothing.

Alonso turns the pitlane into a drag race with fisi, nothing happens.


Nothing but pure BS from the FIA.

[nightingalecars]

Oh, and let's not forget the BS crane incident that Lewis should have been black flagged on. No way he was getting out of that trap without help and the only way the crane is supposed to help someone is if they have already given up the race. In short, his race should ahve been over regardless if he wanted it over or not. He should have been further penalized for not doing what he was supposed to do, shut off his car and leave the scene. No punishment. Nothing.

Alonso turns the pitlane into a drag race with fisi, nothing happens.


Nothing but pure BS from the FIA.

I think if his car is classed as in a dangerous part of the circuit then the marshalls may aid the dricver back on to the track. I believ this precident was set by Michael Schumacher a few seasons ago when he went off on a corner and was pushed back through the gravel trap by the marshall.

It's a fair result...if I steal or de-fraud in my job, the company is liable even if they didn't know i'd done it. If they were complicit in that fraud etc then it's more serious but there's a "lack of evidence"....not that it will stop Ferrair fans moaning.

I'm a Ferrari fan, and I'm not moaning.

It's a fair judgement given the circumstances.

[DonnieDarco]

I have to wonder if the fact that a Brit is currently leading the championship has anything to do with Maclaren getting away with it. I even said to my brother this morning that because of Hamilton, I would not be at all surprised if they got off.

[Donney]

Quote:
The FIA World Motor Sport Council have found McLaren guilty of possession of unauthorised Ferrari documents...

Sure this means nothing! :rolleyes:

Don't quote me on this but the key lies on the fact that there are no evidences proving that McLaren have obtained any benefit from those documents. I don't trust any F1 team as I suspect all of them spend more time trying to cheat than trying to make things right, so I don't think McLaren are completely innocent.
In any case if there is no sustainable evidence, there is nothing to be done.

So whether we like it or not, well done FIA.

[DonnieDarco]

I find it strange that documents given to Coughlan were shown to other top levels employees, yet at no time was he reported by Maclaren to the FIA. Don't you think they would have appeared in a much better light had they done this? I certainly do.

[Bagwan]

So , they are clearly in breach of the sporting code , and there is no penalty .
That sounds fair .

Are we to believe that Mike never opened the document , or that he had nothing to do with the design of the car ?

Many thought it merely clever of Ron's team to have asked if they would be within the rules to have a moving floor . Now it seems a bit too clever .


Whether or not there is inequity here , it is detrimental to the sport should there be a perception so .
Since the broke the code , it is not just perception , it is fact .
There's nothing grey here .

Certainly I know that having McLaren banned would hurt , but no penalty at all will hurt much worse .

Ferrari will and should look hard for proof .

[andreag]

Could you tell me what use there is to have rules if they are not enforced? What is the point of the FIA's existence in this case?!
I asked myself exactly the same question almost a year ago, after Michael jumped several times a chicane at Hungaroring to keep his position against de la Rosa, without any penalty.

I asked myself exactly the same question after FIA did nothing on the Austria 2002 joke, but saying to Ferrari "you've been a naughty team, don't do this again".

So, welcome to the Club of the Unanswered Questions.

[Donney]

So , they are clearly in breach of the sporting code , and there is no penalty .
That sounds fair .
(...)

Ferrari will and should look hard for proof .


I hope they do and if the find it I hope McLaren are punished as it is adequate, in the meantime....

[Daika]

I asked myself exactly the same question almost a year ago, after Michael jumped several times a chicane at Hungaroring to keep his position against de la Rosa, without any penalty.

I asked myself exactly the same question after FIA did nothing on the Austria 2002 joke, but saying to Ferrari "you've been a naughty team, don't do this again".

So, welcome to the Club of the Unanswered Questions.

Don't think we should get (ex)drivers into this debate. This got nothing to do with drivers behaviour on track. So don't start with "all men a equal but some men are more equal then others".

This is all about senior engineers, the drivers are out of the loop when it concerns making cars.

I asked myself exactly the same question after FIA did nothing on the Austria 2002 joke, but saying to Ferrari "you've been a naughty team, don't do this again".



Could you enlighten me?

I don't know which rule Ferrari broke in Austria 2002, since there wasn't a rule on team orders to break.

Now, how about this.........

When Benetton were found in breach of a rule but cleared of using traction control (even though it was in the car), many people active on this forum still believe that they were cheats.

Do the same people also believe that Mclaren are cheats?

It's just that both situations are kind of similar.

[markabilly]

NO WAY--any CONTENDER gets banned and ruins revenue for Bernie Ernie, and that includes any top contender, be it Mclaren, Ferrari, BMW, maybe even as far down as Williams or Toyota-----mabe even spyker.... :rolleyes:

Now if this had happened one day after the season ended, then McLaren might have "lost" the 2007 championship or some points, but you can be sure a ban on future participation in the middle of the 2007 season would NEVER have been imposed......IT WOULD HURT REVENUE AND KEEP SOME CASH FROM BERNIE"S POCKETS

You think it was because Bernie luved Schumi, that he got away with the the stuff that went on.....HHAHAHAhHA--

no dudes, it was :D o we do something that will hurt Bernie Enrie revenue? If the answer is YES, then we do not do it, No way.

you guys thinkin otherwise...too stupid

[markabilly]

Could you enlighten me?

I don't know which rule Ferrari broke in Austria 2002, since there wasn't a rule on team orders to break.

Now, how about this.........

When Benetton were found in breach of a rule but cleared of using traction control (even though it was in the car), many people active on this forum still believe that they were cheats.

Do the same people also believe that Mclaren are cheats?

It's just that both situations are kind of similar.

Yeah, banning g Benetton would have had serious negative impact on revenue for that year for Bernie.....no way!!Now stripping Schmuie of some points AFTER the season was over...no problem there for Bernieboys' pockets of cash :D

[JasonD]

Oh I can just imagine if MS was still with Ferrari and the tables were reversed how outraged everyone would be. :rolleyes:

[andreag]

Could you enlighten me?

I don't know which rule Ferrari broke in Austria 2002, since there wasn't a rule on team orders to break.
It's a pleasure to enlight you:

Ferrari and its drivers were fined $1 million by the FIA for improper conduct at the Austrian Grand Prix on May 12, 2002. The World Motor Sport Council held that Rubens Barrichello, Michael Schumacher and Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro were each guilty of failure to observe Article 170 of the Formula One Sporting Regulations.

http://www.fia.com/gate?action=retrievePage&locale=en_GB&PageID=27743594&printer=on

[schmenke]

All teams spy :mark:

[Robinho]

i'm a little unsure of this one, there seems, as always, to be 2 distinct camps on this one (surprise!).

Mclaren have been found guilty of breaching the sporting code, as they'd have to be as a McLaren employee clearly had things he shouldn't have.

However the FIA have accepted the docs were not for McLaren nor was there any proof that they had been used by McLaren. therefore, although technically guilty of the breach, there was no need to level serious sanctions.

I'm not surprised by the verdict, and from what i've seen and heard seems pretty fair, although i would have expected that McLaren would have been fined, say £250k, for having the docs, but spared any sporting penalties for not, as a Team knowing of them or using them.

i'm not surprised by some of the reactions either, there was always going to be an;

"i told you so, no cheating, shut up and get on with it" vs the "so cheating is ok now is it, the whole world is against me and i can't support any FIA decision anymore as they don't go the way of my team".

in this case i fully believe that individuals a culpable and were putting one over on both teams, and that they will likely get their punishments, who ever they are.

i also note that in what i've just read about the cerdicts there was no mention of the supposed viewing of the docs by senior McLaren team members as "leaked" from the affidavit, which i'd assume the FIA must have a copy of, no great surprise that this seems to be rubbish, unless something comes out of the civil or criminal cases to follow.

in the meantime we can go racing again, and lets face it, on the track we are being treated to a vintage season.

[DonJippo]

Once again commercial interests were far more important for FIA, well the farce continues and Bernie is having a laugh behind the corner...

[kalasend]

It's a pleasure to enlight you:

Ferrari and its drivers were fined $1 million by the FIA for improper conduct at the Austrian Grand Prix on May 12, 2002. The World Motor Sport Council held that Rubens Barrichello, Michael Schumacher and Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro were each guilty of failure to observe Article 170 of the Formula One Sporting Regulations.

http://www.fia.com/gate?action=retrievePage&locale=en_GB&PageID=27743594&printer=on

Along the same line I think fining is the best type of penalty in F1.
1. Taking money does not immediately affect the results of the championship
2. Yet F1 operation is all about $$. Taking money from a team is perfectly effective punishment
3. Ecclestone will be kept happy

So, IMO, a fine should be imposed on McLaren, no more, no less.

[COD]

Typical FIA. Well, McLaren are "sort of guilty", but as it would have bad publicity for their no.1 sport they give them a slap on the wrist. And who honestly thinks that they would get punished in the future even if they used the info they got? I don't, because "it could not be proven 100%".

Ferraris statement is quite bitter, and fairly so if I may add

[gm99]

I can't quite decide whether Ferrari calling for "sporting honesty" should make me laugh or puke (or both). http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~151944~pid~0.htm

Here's a team that over the last decade has bent the rules of the sport in previously unknown ways, employing drivers that drove their rivals deliberately off track to preserve their championship (Schumi in Jerez 1997), blocked other drivers so that their other driver could drive off in the distance (Irvine at Suzuka in 1997), gave up their lead in favor of their team-mate (Schumi to Irvine at Sepang 1999, Barrichello to Schumi in Austria 2002, Schumi to Barrichello at Indy in 2002), deliberately crashed in qualifying to provoke yellow flags (Schumi at Monaco in 2006), served a stop and go penalty after having been given the checkered flag (Schumi at Silverstone in 1998) or using devices of at best questionable legality (barge boards in 1999, mass dampers in 2006, moveable floors in 2007) calling for "honesty"? Gimme a break, please!

[CarreraGT]

It's a pleasure to enlight you:

Ferrari and its drivers were fined $1 million by the FIA for improper conduct at the Austrian Grand Prix on May 12, 2002. The World Motor Sport Council held that Rubens Barrichello, Michael Schumacher and Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro were each guilty of failure to observe Article 170 of the Formula One Sporting Regulations.

http://www.fia.com/gate?action=retrievePage&locale=en_GB&PageID=27743594&printer=on

not for sure, but wasn't this fine more about Schumi pushing Rubens onto the top step of the podium, and not about pulling over to let Schumi pass? and then after this, the team orders rule come into effect.

i am glad McLaren got off, as i am a fan. should they have been fined since they were found guilty, definitely. i am just glad it didn't effect the WDC.

[mervyn charter]

I think that Ferrari are shooting themselves in the foot with their attempts at having Mclaren penalized. it appears that they want an easy ride to both championships this year by having Mclaren Thrown out.

Do they have no confidence in their team and drivers? If Mclaren were thrown out of both championships would not this lead to a very hollow easy championship for Ferrari.

They should focus on giving their drivers reliable cars and try to beat Mclaren fair and square on the track.

In fact i sometimes wonder if mclaren have not been set up in this whole unfortunate episode.

If Ferrari were running away with the championship this year, would this have come about?

[Valve Bounce]

This thread is getting bitter and twisted - and I'm outa this thread. Bye!!

[Daika]

Don't get your post. What would you do when a rival is in possession of your intellectuel property?

I would go to the police, let a judge look at it and say judge please let the thief go away unpunish because I can stand on my two own feet?

Do you blame ferrari for reporting this or because they aren;t happy with the outcome?

Probably offtopic!! but they were found guilty (happy that they didn't receive a penalty because the didn't used the information to gain the upper hand, however a fine would be justified)

[Valve Bounce]

Let's look at this in another way. Supposing the plans had come to a team (unamed) which then started incorporating the ideas and designs into their own car.

What would you think then? Ferrari have every right to protect their intellectual property.

Apart from anything else, Coughlan and whoever gave him the plans could end up in one of the Hiltons (same as Paris) with free meals for a lengthy period.

[Hendersen]

I can't quite decide whether Ferrari calling for "sporting honesty" should make me laugh or puke (or both). http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~151944~pid~0.htm (http://www.crash.net/news_view%7Ecid%7E1%7Eid%7E151944%7Epid%7E0.htm)

Here's a team that over the last decade has bent the rules of the sport in previously unknown ways, employing drivers that drove their rivals deliberately off track to preserve their championship (Schumi in Jerez 1997), blocked other drivers so that their other driver could drive off in the distance (Irvine at Suzuka in 1997), gave up their lead in favor of their team-mate (Schumi to Irvine at Sepang 1999, Barrichello to Schumi in Austria 2002, Schumi to Barrichello at Indy in 2002), deliberately crashed in qualifying to provoke yellow flags (Schumi at Monaco in 2006), served a stop and go penalty after having been given the checkered flag (Schumi at Silverstone in 1998) or using devices of at best questionable legality (barge boards in 1999, mass dampers in 2006, moveable floors in 2007) calling for "honesty"? Gimme a break, please!

Way to stay on topic. Most of the garbage you named every driver that's been in top teams and raced for over a decade has done. You read too much Birtish trash. If you see .uk, ignore whatvever it is. Trash by a bunch of inbred bigots.

[Hendersen]

Shouldn't your question be why is Mclaren so desperate to do something so stupid to try to get an edge?

[Ian McC]

Edited

It's getting boring now, I can't see why he hasn't been kicked out yet.

[jas123f1]

I’m surprised, if there is proof of that McLaren’s chief designer has got information from Ferrari which is classified as secret and McLaren as company did know it but didn’t take any action to clarify what happened (e.g. didn’t take any contact with Ferrari) how can FIA clarify that McLaren is not guilty to anything worth a penalty. I’m afraid that this FIA decision is a bigger loss for F1 than the information leak it shelf. Now this affair is laying a long shadow over FIA and it’s reputation for a long time. Probably Ferrari will go on with that to the court and if the court will find McLaren guilty then FIA has much to explain.
However, surprise, surprise.. :)

[Mifune]

Shouldn't your question be why is Mclaren so desperate to do something so stupid to try to get an edge?

do you mean the Mclaren team or an individual within the team acting autonomously?

[akv89]

I can't quite decide whether Ferrari calling for "sporting honesty" should make me laugh or puke (or both). http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~151944~pid~0.htm

Here's a team that over the last decade has bent the rules of the sport in previously unknown ways, employing drivers that drove their rivals deliberately off track to preserve their championship (Schumi in Jerez 1997),
And Schumacher was punished for that

blocked other drivers so that their other driver could drive off in the distance (Irvine at Suzuka in 1997),
Unfortunately, Ferrari are not the only team that have done this sort of thing, it can't be prevented everytime and it doesn't make sense to blame one single team.

gave up their lead in favor of their team-mate (Schumi to Irvine at Sepang 1999, Barrichello to Schumi in Austria 2002, Schumi to Barrichello at Indy in 2002),
They didn't break any rules, hence there was nothing wrong with team orders.

deliberately crashed in qualifying to provoke yellow flags (Schumi at Monaco in 2006),
And Schumacher was punished for that

served a stop and go penalty after having been given the checkered flag (Schumi at Silverstone in 1998)
They exploited a loophole, it wasn't illegal

or using devices of at best questionable legality (barge boards in 1999, mass dampers in 2006, moveable floors in 2007) calling for "honesty"?
Fair enough, they pushed the boundaries but it wasn't something outrageously illegal.
Regarding the verdict, this is my opinion:
If a team disobeys the rules, then the punishment must fit the illegality of the crime. I think that the current punishment is actually quite fair. There was an individual in the McLaren team who disobeyed the rules, so it doesn't make sense to have the entire team punished. Individual motives have nothing to do with the decisions made in the team and it's impossible to always stop these individuals from doing things for personal gain that are against the rules of the game. If McLaren was banned for an individual committing a crime, then people can exploit this event as a precedent to ban other teams by purposefully having one person in their entire team get in possession of their intelligence. The team would have committed the crime if the intelligence was proven to have been in use in designing the car. So the punishment really does make sense in my opinion.

[raikk]

Shouldn't your question be why is Mclaren so desperate to do something so stupid to try to get an edge?

theres no proof they used any Ferrari devices ...

[blakebeatty]

do you mean the Mclaren team or an individual within the team acting autonomously?

How can you assume that this engineer was working individually. Do you assume his plan was to sneak in after hours and implement design changes?

You are truly naive if you cannot see this as a team effort.

[akv89]

How can you assume that this engineer was working individually.
How can you assume that he wasn't? The only way to prove it is that the intelligence was used in developing the car. If that is proven, then McLaren will deservedly be punished.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm glad McLaren were not disqualified or docked points as I don't want to see Ferrari handed a title in that manner.

However, I'm puzzled by the FIA's verdict. The FIA has found McLaren guilty but witheld punishment because McLaren didn't benefit from the documents possed by Coughlan. How can this be? How could Coughlan not be influenced by the information he read in those documents? He was a senior member of McLaren's design team who had Ferrari data running around in his head but he didn't use any of that knowledge in excercising his duties with McLaren? The only way for Coughlan to not be influenced by the Ferrari data was for him to not have read the documents. Does anybody think he hasn't read the documents?

I think it would have been far better for the FIA to exonerate McLaren completely than to use the "guilty, but..." verdict. If McLaren win the championship there is going to be a big question mark over it's validity. People are still going on about the Benetton/traction control thing from '94, even though it was 13 years ago!

It's fairly typical of the FIA though. Everything seems to turn into a convoluted mess!

[jas123f1]

Individual motives have nothing to do with the decisions made in the team and it's impossible to always stop these individuals from doing things for personal gain that are against the rules of the game.

If a "chief designer" has (as you say) "nothing to do with the decisions made in the team" - then who has? Ron? In my mind it's out of question that a chief designer shouldn't have any influence to the car design. Why you have a chief designer – if he has nothing to do with the design of the car?

FIA has made a "political decision" (that’s anyway my opinion of it) and it's not good for the sport.

[wmcot]

I think if his car is classed as in a dangerous part of the circuit then the marshalls may aid the dricver back on to the track. I believ this precident was set by Michael Schumacher a few seasons ago when he went off on a corner and was pushed back through the gravel trap by the marshall.

When will everyone stop trying to make a comparison between a car that was still half-way on the racing surface with a car 30 meters in the gravel? I guess when they take off their McLaren blinders and can finally see straight (like that would ever happen!)

[wmcot]

If a team disobeys the rules, then the punishment must fit the illegality of the crime. I think that the current punishment is actually quite fair.

Exactly what was the punishment??? They were found guilty of violating the FIA's own sporting regulations, but there was no punishment! There was no fine! There was no docking of points! There was no race suspension! WHAT was the punishment? To say, "maybe we'll have you back again if we run across something that we can't sweep under the carpet." Yeah, that's a pretty strict punishment alright!

The FIA has lost what little shred of credibility it had left. If they were not going to punish McLaren, they should have found them innocent. But they found McLaren guilty and gave no punishment. I guess it may have slowed the flow of cash into the FIA's (read as Bernie's) pockets. The FIA have lost control of motorsport or rather, they have sold out their control of motorsport in the name of the euro (or pound, or dollar, etc.) Money controls F1, not the FIA and certainly not the fans.

If the two teams were reversed and the outcome was the same, there would be pitchforks and torches swarming from Britain across the channel and headed for Italy right now!

I think Ferrari ought to go back to their flexible floor and rear wing and let the FIA bring them in for "punishment."

[markabilly]

You people--he must be a ferrari fan, he must love McLaren, it is fair, it ain;t fair, cheating is ok cheating is not ok

what a bunch of dumb butts

It is still all about bernie's revenue continuing to flow. Bernie knows that hamie and MClarent continued winning is vital to continued interest and revenue

Banning them and taking a big chunk of points and handing the championship to Ferrari would just kill the old pocketbook when folks turned away

As to favorites, there is ONLY ONE favorite in F1...whatever enhances bernie's revenue---If bernieboy trully thought that banning maclaren would enhance revenue, MAcLARENT and mercedes would be toasted really good right noww.............same for ferrariiiiiAs they said in Watergate, watch the money...look for the money...money tells all and is all to some folks..and enough is never enough.... :eek: :cool: :eek:

[wmcot]

I am getting tired of Ron Dennis proclaiming his "integrity" all over the media! What about the integrity of HIS TEAM???? The team HE controls??? If Coughlan had any integrity he would have immediately notified the proper authorities when the documents appeared by a "mysterious courier." If those in high places in McLaren had any integrity, they would have handled the matter properly AT THE TIME they were shown the documents instead of waiting until they were found out months later!

It seems that Ron Dennis, a man of self-proclaimed integrity, is surrounded by those who have none. Those are the people that he hires and continues to pay for their services despite their lack of integrity. So, when I read about Ron claiming that he is a man of integrity, it brings to mind a line from another famous Brit, "Me thinketh he protest too much!"

[ShiftingGears]

As a racing fan I am glad that McLaren are cleared.

[wmcot]

It is still all about bernie's revenue continuing to flow. Bernie knows that hamie and MClarent continued winning is vital to continued interest and revenue

Banning them and taking a big chunk of points and handing the championship to Ferrari would just kill the old pocketbook when folks turned away

As to favorites, there is ONLY ONE favorite in F1...whatever enhances bernie's revenue...


Exactly! And I wonder what Bernie would do if Ferrari decided to go sportscar racing and pull out of F1 leaving Spyker and Toro Rosso without engines? I wonder what Bernie would think about 6 empty grid spots? I wonder how many other manufacturers would leave in the following years? How much lighter would Bernie's pockets be then?

[wmcot]

As a racing fan I am glad that McLaren are cleared.

As long as you can live with them winning a tainted championship!

[pino]

As a racing fan I am glad that McLaren are cleared.

And as a sportman, I am not glad that McLaren are..."cleared" :rolleyes:

[Ranger]

As long as you can live with them winning a tainted championship!

It's happened before. You lived.

[ShiftingGears]

The team haven't been proven guilty of doing anything with it, and it was not the action of the team, but that of two individuals that led to this. From what I can see...

[wmcot]

Let me give you a more personal analogy:

Suppose an unknown courier drops off all your bank account information to me. This consists of account numbers, passwords, bank receipts, records, financial transactions, stock and bond accounts, retirement accounts, and any other info I need to gain access to your money. I then show it to several of my friends who want nothing to do with it. I take the pile of documents and make copies of them all. Why would I be making copies of all you accounts? No matter, I've done it. Finally, I get caught when the police are tipped off while I'm making the copies. Mind you, I've had access to all your accounts for several months now.

At this point I'm taken to trial where I'm found guilty and subsequently set free to go as long as I'm around in case I want to be called back if ever needed some day. Who's to say I don't still have one or more copies laying around in some undisclosed place? Who's to say I don't still remember some of your account numbers?

How would you sleep at night if this were on a more personal level?

Was justice done? You decide...

[markabilly]

:p
How can you assume that he wasn't? The only way to prove it is that the intelligence was used in developing the car. If that is proven, then McLaren will deservedly be punished. :rolleyes:


Typical dumb butt comment--it aint about nothing but bernie's :s mokin: money and revenue----it should read: if proven that maclarent conduct will negatively impact bernie's billions in revenue, mclarent (or ferrariii or whoever) will be deservedly punished very very harshly .....

and ron deniis will be stripped naked of all past titles and ability to compete forced to run naked thro the streets of italy while being flogged by every citzen willing to buy some nine-tails.....but only if the "circuit" pays the appopriate franchise fee of 25 million dollars, with exclusive video rights to Bernie..... :s mokin:

[wmcot]

It's happened before. You lived.

It doesn't mean I liked it!

[janneppi]

I'm glad McLaren were not disqualified or docked points as I don't want to see Ferrari handed a title in that manner.

However, I'm puzzled by the FIA's verdict. The FIA has found McLaren guilty but witheld punishment because McLaren didn't benefit from the documents possed by Coughlan. How can this be? How could Coughlan not be influenced by the information he read in those documents? He was a senior member of McLaren's design team who had Ferrari data running around in his head but he didn't use any of that knowledge in excercising his duties with McLaren? The only way for Coughlan to not be influenced by the Ferrari data was for him to not have read the documents. Does anybody think he hasn't read the documents?

Coughlan was on the way out of McLaren and wasn't in charge of this years, or next years car, If I knew one of my senior employees was about leave for another team , I would let him get near anything mportant.


I think it would have been far better for the FIA to exonerate McLaren completely than to use the "guilty, but..." verdict. If McLaren win the championship there is going to be a big question mark over it's validity. People are still going on about the Benetton/traction control thing from '94, even though it was 13 years ago!

It's fairly typical of the FIA though. Everything seems to turn into a convoluted mess!I haven't read any official FIA statements, but understand FIA gave the notice because McLaren did not inform Ferrari of the data fast enough.
And didn't want to touch legal matters of the case as it's being pursued by Ferrari in two courts.

[wmcot]

As a racing fan I am glad that McLaren are cleared.

Actually they were found guilty, they just weren't punished. That's a lot different than being cleared!

[markabilly]

Let me give you a more personal analogy:

Suppose an unknown courier drops off all your bank account information to me. This consists of account numbers, passwords, bank receipts, records, financial transactions, stock and bond accounts, retirement accounts, and any other info I need to gain access to your money. I then show it to several of my friends who want nothing to do with it. I take the pile of documents and make copies of them all. Why would I be making copies of all you accounts? No matter, I've done it. Finally, I get caught when the police are tipped off while I'm making the copies. Mind you, I've had access to all your accounts for several months now.

At this point I'm taken to trial where I'm found guilty and subsequently set free to go as long as I'm around in case I want to be called back if ever needed some day. Who's to say I don't still have one or more copies laying around in some undisclosed place? Who's to say I don't still remember some of your account numbers?

How would you sleep at night if this were on a more personal level?

Was justice done? You decide...


HAHAHAH was justice done....of course it was!!!! bernie's :s mokin: present revenue projections for 2007 has been preserved

[pino]

Poll added (just for the fun of it) ;)

[wmcot]

Poll added (just for the fun of it) ;)

Glad you thought of it!

So far it's 2 to 1 against the FIA ruling (or actually non-ruling!)

[wmcot]

I would like to hear from those fans of other teams. Those who are neither Ferrari or McLaren fans (probably also those who are not from the UK or Italy)

[wmcot]

The team haven't been proven guilty of doing anything with it, and it was not the action of the team, but that of two individuals that led to this. From what I can see...

Actually, McLaren WERE found guilty of violating sporting regulations - the FIA just didn't have the balls to do anything about it!

[Ranger]

It doesn't mean I liked it!

Neither. As a matter of fact, the whole thing stinks. The only ones gaining anything out of this are the media.

This whole thing is a mess and so pointing fingers would only result in more people being disgruntled. If I were the FIA I would fine McLaren, but there is really nothing else that can be proven at this stage, and no more action that could be taken within reason.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

there's so much unsubstantiated "facts" flying around: who has the definitive answers: i sure as hell would like to know the unvarnished truth.
It seems that everyone involved has a axe to grind, and this includes the media. I trust that the truth will out: but the amount of money involved here, might blow away the search for truth.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

another thing, people do sometimes lie under oath. This whole thing stinks.

[Hawkmoon]

Coughlan was on the way out of McLaren and wasn't in charge of this years, or next years car, If I knew one of my senior employees was about leave for another team , I would let him get near anything mportant.

Where did you get the infomation about Coughlan being on the way out? The only thing I've heard is that he was trying to get a job at Honda with Stepney.

I can't believe that Coughlan had no input into McLaren's engineering processes. McLaren aren't going to pay a guy to sit in his office and play Solitaire all day.

Coughlan doesn't have to have included Ferrari elements in a car for him to have used the Ferrari data. The document contained not only plans for the F2007 but also information on Ferrari's operations including things like testing procedures. All he had to do was suggest a change in the way McLaren do things and McLaren have theoretically benefitted from the Ferrari data.

This is why I think the FIA should have either completely cleared, or convicted and punished, McLaren. The FIA needed to be black and white on this one. Instead they went for the usual shade of grey they prefer.

Ferrari aren't happy because one of their rivals (Ferrari and McLaren have quite a bit of "history", don't forget) has been found guilty of obtaining their intellectual property but has escaped punishment. I know I'd be upset if someone was found guilty of stealing my car but not punished.

[markabilly]

there's so much unsubstantiated "facts" flying around: who has the definitive answers: i sure as hell would like to know the unvarnished truth.
It seems that everyone involved has a axe to grind, and this includes the media. I trust that the truth will out: but the amount of money involved here, might blow away the search for truth.

Read your own post, grasshopper, in that you will find the truth and it will set you free

No way would bernie :s mokin: ever let money get in the way of justice, unless it was bernie :s mokin: money then blow away, smash and nuke thos punk ass searchers for justice to death

So there is only one answer that determines the outcome of any and all questions: How does it affect bernie :s mokin: 's income?

[markabilly]

Wellllll :eek: DUUUUHHH :eek:

everyone should be answering the question as YES, protecting bernie income was the right decision

[Ian McC]

Let me give you a more personal analogy:

Suppose an unknown courier drops off all your bank account information to me. This consists of account numbers, passwords, bank receipts, records, financial transactions, stock and bond accounts, retirement accounts, and any other info I need to gain access to your money. I then show it to several of my friends who want nothing to do with it. I take the pile of documents and make copies of them all. Why would I be making copies of all you accounts? No matter, I've done it. Finally, I get caught when the police are tipped off while I'm making the copies. Mind you, I've had access to all your accounts for several months now.

At this point I'm taken to trial where I'm found guilty and subsequently set free to go as long as I'm around in case I want to be called back if ever needed some day. Who's to say I don't still have one or more copies laying around in some undisclosed place? Who's to say I don't still remember some of your account numbers?

How would you sleep at night if this were on a more personal level?

Was justice done? You decide...

Then that makes you Coughlan, not McLaren and he is yet to have his day in 'court'. 2 out of 10, must try harder.

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren have been found guilty of having an employee who was acting in his own interests. Coughlan (and therefore McLaren in the eyes of the FIA) had possession of Ferrari documents. However, nothing points to McLaren having made use of those documents in any way shape or form. Therefore the verdict is the correct one IMHO.

Ferrari needed to establish that McLaren, not Couglan alone, had the documents, read them, and gained a sporting advantage from them. While their statements have consistently implied that this has been was case, they have taken no action against McLaren the team. That suggests they have no evidence against McLaren, just Coughlan.

Ferrari said after the verdict:
"Today's decision legitimises dishonest behaviour in Formula One and sets a very serious precedent. In fact, the decision of the World Council signifies that possession, knowledge at the very highest level and use of highly confidential information acquired in an illicit manner and the acquiring of confidential information over the course of several months, represent violations that do not carry any punishment."

Sadly, it seems the PR campaign continues, which does nothing but damage F1. If Ferrari have evidence that there was "knowledge at the very highest level" and that "highly confidential information" was used then why was it not presented at the FIA hearing, because if it was McLaren's guilt would have been established?

Should the evidence come to light at a later date then of course McLaren should be excluded from the 2007 championship, as the FIA have said.

[jas123f1]

[quote="Hawkmoon"]I'm glad McLaren were not disqualified or docked points as I don't want to see Ferrari handed a title in that manner. /QUOTE]

Do you want to McLaren win the title in that manner?

If FIA did say McLaren is innocent but they didn’t.
So why there wasn’t any kind of punishment to that serious event – nothing, FIA have establish the fact that McLaren’s chief designer has been reading and taking part of Ferrari classified as secret and confidential material. How it’s possible that (if McLaren is completely innocent) that they did not considered any kind of clarifying before Ferrari did know what happened. I’m sorry but it smells from a long way – FIAsco - that's the word .. however for me.. :down: ..

[I am evil Homer]

Jackie Stewart talking sense:

Stewart added: "Personally I think the whole affair has been extremely negative for formula one but, having said that, I would have to say that I believe Ron [Dennis] when he says that none of the information illegally acquired found its way into the McLaren factory.

"At the end of the day we know that the chief executive and senior management are responsible for their employees under the rules of corporate governance but, if one individual is operating independently outside his own remit, then it is right that such clandestine behaviour should be punished on an individual basis."

Coughlan and Stepney are the ones who need to answer the tough questions.

I had sympathy for Ferrari until they said it was "likely" McLaren had used the info prior to the hearing and then saying it would damage Ferrari's reputation...people in glass houses...

[Flat.tyres]

I'm glad McLaren were not disqualified or docked points as I don't want to see Ferrari handed a title in that manner. /QUOTE]

Do you want to McLaren win the title in that manner?

If FIA did say McLaren is innocent but they didn’t.
So why there wasn’t any kind of punishment to that serious event – nothing, FIA have establish the fact that McLaren’s chief designer has been reading and taking part of Ferrari classified as secret and confidential material. How it’s possible that (if McLaren is completely innocent) that they did not considered any kind of clarifying before Ferrari did know what happened. I’m sorry but it smells from a long way – FIAsco - that's the word .. however for me.. :down: ..

McLaren are guilty on a technicality and quite rightly so.

I dont think many people here are aware that before a season starts, the team principal signs a bit of paper that assumes responsibility for their employees against the FIA rules. if an team member commits an act that infringes the sporting code, then the Team has to answer.

this is EXACTLY what McLaren are guilty of and it is irrefutable. A McLaren employee had at his home documents belonging to Ferrari. This is a Fact

however, all the evidence appears to suggest that this employee, far from using the documents to his employeers benefit, was more than likely to be using this and other documents against his employeers by moving to another team.

So, McLaren are technically guilty although they had not done anything wrong or behaved in any sort of inderhanded way. quite the opposite in reality.

the FIA found them guilty as they had to do but reasoned that it was a rogue employee and no intention from McLaren to break the regulations was intended. they therefore choose not to punish them but said if any evidence to the contrary exists, then they would have the book thrown at them.

Seems fair to me.

[tinchote]

McLaren have been found guilty of having an employee who was acting in his own interests. Coughlan (and therefore McLaren in the eyes of the FIA) had possession of Ferrari documents. However, nothing points to McLaren having made use of those documents in any way shape or form. Therefore the verdict is the correct one IMHO.

Ferrari needed to establish that McLaren, not Couglan alone, had the documents, read them, and gained a sporting advantage from them. While their statements have consistently implied that this has been was case, they have taken no action against McLaren the team. That suggests they have no evidence against McLaren, just Coughlan.

Ferrari said after the verdict:

Sadly, it seems the PR campaign continues, which does nothing but damage F1. If Ferrari have evidence that there was "knowledge at the very highest level" and that "highly confidential information" was used then why was it not presented at the FIA hearing, because if it was McLaren's guilt would have been established?

Should the evidence come to light at a later date then of course McLaren should be excluded from the 2007 championship, as the FIA have said.

Arrows, I think your arguments are not that clear-cut. If this logic is accepted - and unfortunately it seems it is - now everytime a team is found with something illegal they can claim that it was this certain employee without knowledge of the team. Ferrari - or any other team - can send an employee to spy on McLaren (or any other team) and if the spy is caught, the team can claim that they knew nothing about it. And it will be the FIA's burden to prove everytime that the team knew that their employee was cheating. Way to go :rolleyes:

[kalasend]

As a racing fan I am glad that McLaren are cleared.

But as a racing fan, would you be glad if MS or Ferrari cheated in order to catch up on the championship?

[kalasend]

The team haven't been proven guilty of doing anything with it, and it was not the action of the team, but that of two individuals that led to this. From what I can see...

John was caught having a copy of Keith's completed homework.
John claimed he did not copy Keith's answers.
The teacher found no resemblance in their work, and decided not to punish John.

Brilliant!

[ArrowsFA1]

If this logic is accepted - and unfortunately it seems it is - now everytime a team is found with something illegal they can claim that it was this certain employee without knowledge of the team. Ferrari - or any other team - can send an employee to spy on McLaren (or any other team) and if the spy is caught, the team can claim that they knew nothing about it. And it will be the FIA's burden to prove everytime that the team knew that their employee was cheating. Way to go :rolleyes:
What you're describing has gone on in F1 for years anyway. It's part and parcel of "the game". What is different in this case is that there was no intention to "spy", no actions taken to obtain secret information from a rival by any means, let alone illegal means.

Documents sent to Coughlan by (allegedly) Stepney dragged McLaren into something not of their own making.

[Donney]

But if there is no proof, shall I repeat no proof of having used these documents in their own advantage, even if they wanted to punnish McLaren there's nothing they could have done. It is fair to assume they meant to use them, they might have read them and even that pigs can fly, but as long as it is not definitelly proven in a trial it is only rumours, assumptions and deductions which in order to fine or ban someone from a sport are not valid.

Ethically McLaren are surely guilty, or at least not innocent, but legally they just have something which could have been ilegally used but that's all.

Let's put it this way Ferrari lawyers or investigators have failed to provide a valid evidence, that does not mean it does not exist but it yet remains to be found.

[jas123f1]

McLaren have been found guilty of having an employee who was acting in his own interests. Coughlan (and therefore McLaren in the eyes of the FIA) had possession of Ferrari documents. However, nothing points to McLaren having made use of those documents in any way shape or form. Therefore the verdict is the correct one IMHO.

Ferrari needed to establish that McLaren, not Couglan alone, had the documents, read them, and gained a sporting advantage from them. While their statements have consistently implied that this has been was case, they have taken no action against McLaren the team. That suggests they have no evidence against McLaren, just Coughlan.

Ferrari said after the verdict:

Sadly, it seems the PR campaign continues, which does nothing but damage F1. If Ferrari have evidence that there was "knowledge at the very highest level" and that "highly confidential information" was used then why was it not presented at the FIA hearing, because if it was McLaren's guilt would have been established?

Should the evidence come to light at a later date then of course McLaren should be excluded from the 2007 championship, as the FIA have said.

In my mind it’s enough that McLaren’s chief designer has this confidential Ferrari information, BECAUSE it’s his occupation at McLaren and he was the CHIEF designer. Now one can assert that he didn’t use Ferrari information in his work, because he has this information, he read it and was taking part of it and probably used it in his work in any case his intention was to use it. Or are FIA thinking he was reading it as a some kind of interesting reading like Daily News? Actully it wasn’t any Daily News he was reading, it was confidential material from a competitor and rival to McLaren NOT to him shelf. He had an interest to read that information because that was his job and the employer to his job was McLaren. That is what FIA are saying and it doesn’t matter if McLaren has used or hasn’t used Ferrari material.
If McLaren had taken any kind of step to clarify what happened directly after that they got the knowledge about that their chief designer had this Ferrari info, then I should understand FIAs decision – but now.. no way … I hope Ferrari take this to the court, because FIA is not trustworthy in this case – not for me anyway.. :down:

[janneppi]

In my mind it’s enough that McLaren’s chief designer has this confidential Ferrari information, BECAUSE it’s his occupation at McLaren and he was the CHIEF designer. Now one can assert that he didn’t use Ferrari information in his work, because he has this information, he read it and was taking part of it and probably used it in his work in any case his intention was to use it. Or are FIA thinking he was reading it as a some kind of interesting reading like Daily News? Actully it wasn’t any Daily News he was reading, it was confidential material from a competitor and rival to McLaren NOT to him shelf. He had an interest to read that information because that was his job and the employer to his job was McLaren. That is what FIA are saying and it doesn’t matter if McLaren has used or hasn’t used Ferrari material.
If McLaren had taken any kind of step to clarify what happened directly after that they got the knowledge about that their chief designer had this Ferrari info, then I should understand FIAs decision – but now.. no way … I hope Ferrari take this to the court, because FIA is not trustworthy in this case – not for me anyway.. :down:
what work did Coughlan, one of FIVE chief engineers at McLaren do? We know who is resonsible worked on this years car and the next years car, neither of them is Coughlan, who was to be leaving the team(reported early this year if my memory serves me right)

[padster]

What you're describing has gone on in F1 for years anyway. It's part and parcel of "the game". What is different in this case is that there was no intention to "spy", no actions taken to obtain secret information from a rival by any means, let alone illegal means.

Documents sent to Coughlan by (allegedly) Stepney dragged McLaren into something not of their own making.

How hard is it to make out that a team has no intension of spying?

As mentioned above, he was a Chief Designer. Designers know how to extract information from a document/object to bust patents/Intellectual Property for their one use....Therefore, no evidence.

If a cashier at a supermarket sells alcohol to someone under-age or is trapped into one of these police tests and doesn't ask for ID, they can get a fine.....so can the store manager.

The verdict in my view, is damage limitation to the sport and nothing else.

[ArrowsFA1]

It is fair to assume they meant to use them...
I don't believe that is a fair assumption, because it assumes McLaren actively sought to obtain the documents and there's nothing to suggest they did.

...are FIA thinking he was reading it as a some kind of interesting reading like Daily News?
Not quite :D but it seems the FIA accept that he used it as part of preparations to move elsewhere, not to benefit McLaren. Had he moved to Honda, then made use of the document in his work with them... :eek:

I hope Ferrari take this to the court, because FIA is not trustworthy in this case – not for me anyway.. :down:
If Ferrari have the evidence to back up their claims (they don't otherwise they would have produced it) then we're likely to see McLaren excluded from the WDC, as the FIA have said.

[jas123f1]

what work did Coughlan, one of FIVE chief engineers at McLaren do? We know who is resonsible worked on this years car and the next years car, neither of them is Coughlan, who was to be leaving the team(reported early this year if my memory serves me right)

It really doesn't matter how many chief engineer McLaren has or what Coughlan did or not did, because his occupation at McLaren was the car design.. and he was taking part of Ferraris car design – that’s the point. If he had been a worker on the floor - but he didn't.. He was the chief design and taking part of an competitors confidential material without to taking any step to clarify that McLaren had this information.. He actually made the opposite - take part of it.. This FIA decision means – in the future it’s almost risk free to do something like that - and then go absolutely free .. in my mind FIA made a big mistake and the question is – WHY?

[janneppi]

Not quite :D but it seems the FIA accept that he used it as part of preparations to move elsewhere, not to benefit McLaren. Had he moved to Honda, then made use of the document in his work with them... :eek:

That's an interesting view, would Ferrari have acted with the same gusto towards Honda as they have done against McLaren?



This FIA decision means – in the future it’s almost risk free to do something like that - and then go absolutely free .. in my mind FIA made a big mistake and the question is – WHY?
How is it free for Coughlan? He is facing sanctions from FIA and possibly from the courts?

[Hondo]

Based strictly on what I think I know about all of this, I don't believe McLaren should be punished unless it is absolutely proven beyond all resonable doubt that McLaren used any of Ferrari's technology, directly copied, on their car.

Otherwise:

What is to keep Toyota from winning the championship by sending all of their competition a packet of technical information on the sly, and then hiring investigators because they "suspect" some of their technical data has been passed on. Another team is found with a packet that it didn't solicit or use but is banned because a team member had it in their possession?

Does anybody know for sure whether the Ferrari data is accurate, or could it be mis-information designed to send another's technical team down a false, dead end trail?

Unless somebody can prove that McLaren actively solicited this information from Ferrari employees in return for valuable considerations unknown, I say leave McLaren alone.

[ioan]

McLaren have been found guilty of having an employee who was acting in his own interests. Coughlan (and therefore McLaren in the eyes of the FIA) had possession of Ferrari documents. However, nothing points to McLaren having made use of those documents in any way shape or form. Therefore the verdict is the correct one IMHO.

Ferrari needed to establish that McLaren, not Couglan alone, had the documents, read them, and gained a sporting advantage from them. While their statements have consistently implied that this has been was case, they have taken no action against McLaren the team. That suggests they have no evidence against McLaren, just Coughlan.

You probably never read the FIA regulations before posting. I'll help you out! :D Here you go:



Article 3.1 of the Formula One Sporting Regulations:

"It is the competitor's responsibility to ensure that all persons concerned by his entry observe all the requirements of the Agreement, the Code, the Technical Regulations and the Sporting Regulations."



Appendix 2 of the Entry Form for the F1 Sporting Regulations, contains the following undertaking:

"We confirm that we have read and understand the provisions of the International Sporting Code, the 1998 Concorde Agreement (including its Schedules), the 2007 Formula One Technical Regulations and the 2007 Formula One Sporting Regulations. We agree to be bound by them [...] and further we agree on our own behalf and on behalf of everyone associated with our participation in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championship to observe them."

So based on their own rules in no way could the FIA do a distinction between Coughlan and the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team.
And they didn't, they declared the team guilty but chose not to punish it, this is the interesting part!

[ioan]

what work did Coughlan, one of FIVE chief engineers at McLaren do? We know who is resonsible worked on this years car and the next years car, neither of them is Coughlan, who was to be leaving the team(reported early this year if my memory serves me right)

Link Needed about that earlier report about Coughlan leaving the McLaren team!

[ioan]

Otherwise:

What is to keep Toyota from winning the championship by sending all of their competition a packet of technical information on the sly, and then hiring investigators because they "suspect" some of their technical data has been passed on. Another team is found with a packet that it didn't solicit or use but is banned because a team member had it in their possession?


What if they call the FIA or the police and tell them about what happened as soon as they received it?!

Why didn't McLaren take any of these actions before being caught by Ferrari with their hand in the cookie jar?
And Ron still preaches about his high moral standards! What a hypocrite.

[jas123f1]

If Ferrari have the evidence to back up their claims (they don't otherwise they would have produced it) then we're likely to see McLaren excluded from the WDC, as the FIA have said.

Yes, FIA has said that too :) FIA is saying so much in these days.

But it is not necessary to exclude McLaren for whole season if they agreed that they have a liability of what’s happened, their responsibility to that their chief designer was using confidential material from a competitor.

However FIA has a possibility to say – ok, we accept that and then exclude McLaren as many races (e.g. one or two) what is reasonable punishment to their imprudence.

I think there is also one other thing FIA should take under consideration.
Namely, this confidential Ferrari information McLaren now has, can be useful against all other teams too, not only Ferrari and it’s very difficult to know when it’s useful or when it’s used.

[janneppi]

Link Needed about that earlier report about Coughlan leaving the McLaren team!
It's in Finnish but I'll try to translate the best i can.
http://www.turunsanomat.fi/f1/?ts=1,3:2001:0:0,4:34:0:0:0;4:35:445:1:2006-11-29;4:36:0:0:0,104:35:422625,1:0:0:0:0:0:

Mike Coughlan is also employed by McLaren, altough he was claimed to be leaving the team
Myös pääsuunnittelijana tunnettu Mike Coughlan on edelleen McLarenin palkkalistoilla, vaikka hänen väitettiin lähtevän tallista. Tieto osoittautui kuitenkin vääräksi.http://www.turunsanomat.fi/f1/?ts=1,3:2001:0:0,4:34:586:1:2007-07-04;4:35:0:0:0;4:36:0:0:0,104:34:470269,1:0:0:0:0:0 :


Coughlan, worked as a chief designer at McLaren last year, despite the title, his role is much smaller
Coughlan's position weakened at the end of last year and he was generally concidered to be leaving the team.


While these are not 100% links, there is enough in them to suggest that he would be willing to change teams, maybe to something starting with H and ending with A? ;)

[pino]

btw guys, at itv.com on a similar poll, so far 66% voted NO :eek: and almost the same result on gazzetta.it but that isn't a surprise ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

ioan, thanks for posting the regulations, but it really wasn't necessary :D It's been clear all along that as an employee of McLaren, McLaren would have to answer for the actions of Coughlan. This they have done, and therefore the FIA have found McLaren guilty of breaching article 151c of the sporting code. However, there is nothing to suggest that Coughlan used Ferrari documents in his role at McLaren, nor were the documents used by McLaren.


Why didn't McLaren take any of these actions before being caught by Ferrari with their hand in the cookie jar?
McLaren suspended Coughlan on the 3rd of July, the day they became aware that he had personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee.

It is Ferrari making the insinuation that McLaren kept it quiet for months, just as they have insinuated that McLaren had "knowledge at the very highest level" and used "highly confidential information acquired in an illicit manner".

If Ferrari have the evidence to back up their very public accusations, then they should produce it.

[jas123f1]

How is it free for Coughlan? He is facing sanctions from FIA and possibly from the courts?

Who said Coughlan?
McLaren is going free despite that they had (or maybe still have) confidential Ferrari material which they have now right to have.

What happened with Coughlan it another question and will decided later on.

:)

[ArrowsFA1]

Had the FIA verdict been different, what would have prevented any team posting any document to a rival then demanding that the FIA exclude them from the championship for possession of confidential information?

[seppefan]

You probably never read the FIA regulations before posting. I'll help you out! :D Here you go:

So based on their own rules in no way could the FIA do a distinction between Coughlan and the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team.
And they didn't, they declared the team guilty but chose not to punish it, this is the interesting part!

So if McLaren should be punished due to the stupidity of one of their staff then so should Ferrari as somebody employed by them passed the info.

[seppefan]

ioan, thanks for posting the regulations, but it really wasn't necessary :D It's been clear all along that as an employee of McLaren, McLaren would have to answer for the actions of Coughlan. This they have done, and therefore the FIA have found McLaren guilty of breaching article 151c of the sporting code. However, there is nothing to suggest that Coughlan used Ferrari documents in his role at McLaren, nor were the documents used by McLaren.


McLaren suspended Coughlan on the 3rd of July, the day they became aware that he had personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee.

It is Ferrari making the insinuation that McLaren kept it quiet for months, just as they have insinuated that McLaren had "knowledge at the very highest level" and used "highly confidential information acquired in an illicit manner".

If Ferrari have the evidence to back up their very public accusations, then they should produce it.

Which they do not have. Todt/Ferrari may end up the worse for all this.

[ioan]

Had the FIA verdict been different, what would have prevented any team posting any document to a rival then demanding that the FIA exclude them from the championship for possession of confidential information?

As soon as you get it you call Max and tell him, or even better the Police because Max will first call Bernie and ask for directives! :p :
You know, there is a stamp with a date on any parcel, and a parcel aimed to be surely delivered will be a registered one and there will be traces about it everywhere.
Plus if you don't know where the parcel comes from or you have doubts about it you might just not take it from the post or turn it over to the police before opening it!
All of these would have been honest enough. Something that isn't the case with McLaren and self proclaimed Saint Ron Dennis! :rolleyes:

[janneppi]

So now Ron Dennis works for McLarens post room too, my god, the man takes micro managing to a whole new level. :D

[ioan]

So now Ron Dennis works for McLarens post room too, my god, the man takes micro managing to a whole new level. :D

Given how sure he is that no one else but Coughlan was involved I suppose he is also the one that cleans the toilets at the Paragon! :laugh:

[jas123f1]

So if McLaren should be punished due to the stupidity of one of their staff then so should Ferrari as somebody employed by them passed the info.

Sorry, but it really was not only one employed person, it was a chief designer – and there is not only one who had knowledge of the Ferrari material.

[Neil Adams]

i think ferrari are making themselves look bad in this, it would undermine the sport if mclaren were penalised without proof that an advantage had been gained

[555-04Q2]

On that same accord, I guess ferrari won several championships by being cheaters then, Right?

Of course, just like every other F1 team! Every team cheats in all forms of sport. Anyone who believes otherwise is probably still a believer that the earth is flat. Time for a reality check, people cheat due to the vast amount of money and pressure from sponsors to succeed in sport these days. Lets just admit there is nothing we can do about it and get on with our lives!

[555-04Q2]

i think ferrari are making themselves look bad in this, it would undermine the sport if mclaren were penalised without proof that an advantage had been gained

I kind of agree with you but there is also the old saying, "where there is smoke..."

[MAX_THRUST]

It seems to me to often there is a row of some sort going on when Ferrari aren't winning.

I don't mean to offend anyone with that comment, and I can't think of any other occasions where they have , so please dont ask for quotes.

Teams always accuse other teams, but this time there was some evidence, what do you do, kick out Mercedes, and Ron, don't think so, how much credit would then be given to the eventual winners Ferrari if they were kicked out.

Not much!!! Lets move on to the next race, fight it out on track, if the car is a copy, one team is doing a better job with it.

[555-04Q2]

if the car is a copy, one team is doing a better job with it.

So copyrights and design rights aren't needed anymore :?: You mean I can start up a BMW clone car company tommorrow and BMW will just let me carry on cause I do a better job then them :laugh: ROTFPMSL

[savage86]

It seems to me Toyota are far more guilty of copying Ferrari than Mclaren are.

However Ferrari didnt do anything like this because Toyota were no threat to them.

I am not a big Ferrari fan but even if the role's were reversed i still wouldnt want any action taken because the drivers championship is far more important than a few guys handing documents to each other.

F1 is a sport and yes things should be played fair, but lets face it even the Ferrari glory supporters surley dont want the competiton to be taken away.

[ArrowsFA1]

What you're describing has gone on in F1 for years anyway. It's part and parcel of "the game".
Which is exactly what Mika Salo has confirmed:

"When I was driving for Ferrari we always spied on McLaren, listening their radio traffic. After every practice session I had in front of me, on paper, all the discussions Mika Hakkinen had had with his engineer."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61167

[Flat.tyres]

So based on their own rules in no way could the FIA do a distinction between Coughlan and the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team.
And they didn't, they declared the team guilty but chose not to punish it, this is the interesting part!

you are 100% correct. the FIA has to deal with the Team in this matter and they did do. In doing so, they were satisfied that although due to their rules, McLaren were guilty because one of their employees had the info at his home, they were equally satisfied that it was a rogue employee who was not acting on behalf of the team but for his own personal gain so there was no reason to penalise the team that had acted properly.

Now, before the Tifosi get all under the coller, lets consider something else here. IF it is proved that a Ferrari employee supplied the data (lets assume that it's a high ranking employee like Nigel) THEN by the FIA rules, Ferrari are equally as guilty as McLaren although they had no knowledge of what was going on either. we also have to bear in mind the very real possibility that Nigel may have received, in exchange, privilidged information from Mike. If that is the case, will the Ferrari fans be calling for the same draconian punishment as they are advocating for McLaren?

ioan, perhaps you can answer that theoretical question? ;)

[Ranger]

Question to all:

Does anyone here honestly believe that this whole debacle would have been avoided had Ron Dennis publicly stated the fact that Coughlan had Ferrari info to the FIA before the Stepneygate issue arose?? :confused:

Because you'd still have Ferrari chucking a hissy about it, the (Italian, especially) media would be all over it, the McLaren/Dennis detractors would still be calling on the removal of McLaren from the championship, and what's more we'd still be talking about an FIA tribunal hearing and several court cases that follow! :rolleyes: ...not to mention the disrepute the sport has been pulled into. :down:

McLaren's position in this issue in this issue was compromised by only one man, Mike Coughlan, and Ron Dennis and the entire McLaren corporation was put into a lose-lose situation because of it.

[leopard]

Mika Salo called a spade a spade :laugh:

I don't think even if at that time Mclaren knew that they were spied by Ferrari, they would take the problem to the surface, as long as Ferrari took the lead.
Similarly I doubt Ferrari would be fussing this around if McLaren is not seriously treating them.

[ArrowsFA1]

Another perspective on the whole saga - A decision based on facts and realities (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19455.html)

[leopard]

Interesting story there, I have been thinking on every possibility of this case exactly like that.

Ferrari might have to swallow a bitter pill in this case because of this decision, while in the mean time they will not stop the fight here, playing more intrigue and hoping there will be any significant progress on this issue which benefiting them.

[ioan]

Question to all:

Does anyone here honestly believe that this whole debacle would have been avoided had Ron Dennis publicly stated the fact that Coughlan had Ferrari info to the FIA before the Stepneygate issue arose?? :confused:

If McLaren would have done the right thing at the very first moment than they wouldn't have been find guilty at all and not receiving a penalty would have been normal.
Now they are guilty but unpunished! Never seen that before.

What about the legal actions Ferrari started against Stepney and Coughlan? The FIA might look a tad stupider when the courts will hand out the verdicts. Not that it would make a big difference given that they already proved their intelligence.

[ArrowsFA1]

If McLaren would have done the right thing at the very first moment than they wouldn't have been find guilty at all and not receiving a penalty would have been normal.
As McLaren suspended Coughlan, and notified the FIA & Ferrari, when they discovered he was in possession of Ferrari documents what do you mean by "the right thing"?

[ioan]

As McLaren suspended Coughlan, and notified the FIA & Ferrari, when they discovered he was in possession of Ferrari documents what do you mean by "the right thing"?

McLaren suspended Coughlan after Ferrari told them that they know about the issue, not before. It's the small difference you seem to not digest.

[Komahawk]

Yea right. Ban McLaren from the championship, and also next season. Sure thing.

Here's a hint: McLaren's points lead better not get too big, because otherwise some new "evidence" might just come to light.

Generally I find it curious (to say the least) how the FIA and the WMSC present themselves as some sort of Supreme Court Of Racing while only making politically oportunist calls.

And what's that nonsense about "considering banning that McLaren engineer from all motorsports"? LOL! If for instance some NASCAR team wanted to hire him tomorrow, what would the FIA do about it? Threaten to hold their breath until they turn blue in the face?

[ioan]

We shall see what the other teams will say about this ruling.
Flav's the first one:



"I don't understand what happened because to begin with you would only gather the World Council if you had proof. Otherwise, if you don't have proof, you avoid such a meeting," he told the Gazzetta dello Sport newspaper.

"So I don't understand what happened: if the FIA admits to have established possession of Ferrari material by McLaren, then why is there no retribution? This verdict reminds me of Pontius Pilate."


http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2623110,00.html

[ioan]

And it's not over yet:


But Montezemolo insisted the fight would continue, promising fans of the Italian outfit they would not lie down.

"I want to say to the fans from all over the world who have been contacting Ferrari, offended by the decision taken in Paris yesterday, that they should remain calm because this story will not end here," he was quoted as saying by Italian news agency ANSA.

Earlier on Friday, Ferrari's executive director Jean Todt, said the team were mulling their next move.

"We are reflecting on what to do after the incomprehensible and grave decision made in Paris," said the Frenchman. "It's difficult to understand that one who is deemed to be guilty goes unpunished."


http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=312375#post312375

What if Ferrari decide to pull out of the Championship due to unfair ruling that gives illegitimate advantage to McLaren?
How much will Bernie lose than? They might as well limit the F1 championship to Great Britain! :D

[ioan]

How Bernie and Max managed not to have Benetton banned in 1994!
A good read for you all, a long one:
http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php?postid=1294222

[Flat.tyres]

McLaren suspended Coughlan after Ferrari told them that they know about the issue, not before. It's the small difference you seem to not digest.

you dont seem to be able to digest that fact that it is a RUMOUR that McLaren knew about this document before being informed by Ferrari. If you can prove any different, then please do as your sig says and provide it.

and, can you please answer me the question from this post.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312339&postcount=124

time to take a balanced view for once mate. quite a few Ferrari and McLaren fans on here have but you seerm incapable of even considering any criticism of Ferrari. how comes I can criticise McLaren but you say I have McLaren glasses on :laugh:

come on ioan, give us an honest answer ;)

[Flat.tyres]

Another perspective on the whole saga - A decision based on facts and realities (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19455.html)

whoever wrote that has obviously been copying my posts :laugh:

factual and accurate that sums up this sorry saga perfectly.

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren suspended Coughlan after Ferrari told them that they know about the issue, not before. It's the small difference you seem to not digest.

"McLaren became aware on 3rd July that a senior member of its technical organisation was the subject of a Ferrari investigation regarding the receipt of technical information. The team has learnt that this individual had personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee at the end of April."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60464
The 3rd July was the first McLaren knew of this situation. They suspended Coughlan immediately and disclosed what they had discovered to Ferrari and the FIA so I ask again what do you mean by "the right thing"?

I suspect you believe Ferrari's allegations that McLaren knew before this date, but that's all they are. Allegations. There is no evidence to prove any different or it would have been presented to the FIA.

Ferrari are making a great deal of noise about the judgement, but all they need to do is provide evidence to back up their allegations.

[ioan]

and, can you please answer me the question from this post.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312339&postcount=124

come on ioan, give us an honest answer ;)

You asked for my answer, you got it.

[Hendersen]

Where is the proof that Schuamcher parked it up in Monacco on purpose? It seems the FIA's scale of worth for evidence depends entirely on the team and the driver being examined. Period. "A biased and bogus" decision is a more proper title.

Considering the British hype machine has been going to town with the grossly overrated, moderately talented Hamilton, can't get his team and trouble, can't question the validity of his achievements. It wouldn't be good for Bernie's back pocket.

[ioan]

Ferrari are making a great deal of noise about the judgement, but all they need to do is provide evidence to back up their allegations.

They can't make public Coughlan's affidavit, the Court has asked for only 3 recipients of the paper.

But the Same Court will have to rule about Coughlan's acts and than we will know what happened don't you worry, be patient.

[Flat.tyres]

I can't answer such bull$hit! :rolleyes:
You asked for my answer, you got it.

you get more objective by the second :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

They can't make public Coughlan's affidavit, the Court has asked for only 3 recipients of the paper.
Exactly the point made by Ron Dennis:


"The High Court ruling led ultimately to three recipients of Mike Coughlan's affidavit being told in no uncertain terms that it was privileged information, and that they would be committing a legal breach in the event of any of it being shared with third parties.
"I am quite sure the FIA understands the nature of the court order, so I can only assume the other parties who had this material have chosen to share distorted excerpts with other people."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61020

[Flat.tyres]

Todt is going to blow a blood vessle soon :laugh:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61172

perhaps he came to his conclusion that Ferrari would have been punished because of their history :D

oh, the irony. Ferrari feeling agrived :laugh:

[markabilly]

POW BOOM SLAP MCALRENT LOSES constructor championship after the season....when the obvious evidence "turns up"; after it turns up, berneie :s mokin: will have no choice because the failure to punish might hurt 2008 revenue


Meanwhile to do it now, damages the 2007 revenue and by not doing it now, interest is mantained, indeed heightened, thereby increasing revenue

You people!!!!!!!!!!! the answer is obvious and it is not in the "ultimate truth and justice" but in what is best for the sport (for you dummies that is translated as what is best for bernie :s mokin: 's cash)

[Flat.tyres]

POW BOOM SLAP MCALRENT LOSES constructor championship after the season....when the obvious evidence "turns up"; after it turns up, berneie :s mokin: will have no choice because the failure to punish might hurt 2008 revenue


Meanwhile to do it now, damages the 2007 revenue and by not doing it now, interest is mantained, indeed heightened, thereby increasing revenue

You people!!!!!!!!!!! the answer is obvious and it is not in the "ultimate truth and justice" but in what is best for the sport (for you dummies that is translated as what is best for bernie :s mokin: 's cash)

you didn't help ValveBounce come up with his Elvis theory now did you ;)

[jens]

I'm satisfied with the decision, because I want the see titles to be decided on the track, not in the cabinets. It doesn't mean that I support excessive cheating, but in that case nothing serious was found, so why bother?

[markabilly]

I'm satisfied with the decision, because I want the see titles to be decided on the track, not in the cabinets. It doesn't mean that I support excessive cheating, but in that case nothing serious was found, so why bother?


gathers to be had, comparing maclarent data to honda to farririe........."excessive cheating"" well i tried that explanation on my former wife...explained it was not excessive, no harm, no foul, or more specifically, no baby, no foul and the other women, none of them were as good lookin as her.....and none could do me better, and she should be glad that I had done the research to back up that opinion....

For some reason the punishment did NOT fit the crime, but I am now better off without her....

Anyway nuthin gets decided on the track. It gets decided in the testing, windtunnels, whose engineers got the best data....but there was a time, but those days ended many years ago when drivers were real men, not skinny little techno punks

[Ian McC]

Well I expect the FIA weighed up the facts (which no-one on here has) and made a impartial decision (which many on here can't) based on those facts.

I think that makes a lot more sense than most of the rantings on here.

[Bagwan]

Simple .
Rule breached .
No penalty .

Ferrari incredulous .
McLaren relieved .

FIA and WMSC questioned as biassed .


Simple solution .
Ferrari appeals .
McLaren fined .

Coughlan and Stepney sanctioned .

Closure .



This big threat of sanction for McLaren if they are found to have benefitted will hang like a ripening pheasant on the back porch , until it is tender enough to cook for McLaren's and F1's last supper .

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60464
The 3rd July was the first McLaren knew of this situation. They suspended Coughlan immediately and disclosed what they had discovered to Ferrari and the FIA so I ask again what do you mean by "the right thing"?

I suspect you believe Ferrari's allegations that McLaren knew before this date, but that's all they are. Allegations. There is no evidence to prove any different or it would have been presented to the FIA.

Ferrari are making a great deal of noise about the judgement, but all they need to do is provide evidence to back up their allegations.

Those are not allegations, it was all acknowledged by McLaren yesterday, Coughlan received Ferrari documentation in March from Stepney!



"During yesterday's meeting, the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney.

"Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over 'some cars'.

"Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours.

"It is important to underline that the information used to try and damage Ferrari through the FIA might be only a part of the information received by McLaren.

"In an attempt to justify its actions, McLaren has tried to claim the immunity normally accorded to a whistleblower in some legal systems.

"But it should be noted that usually, an informant or whistleblower goes to the competent authority to denounce something, whereas in this case he went to Ferrari's main rival who, and it is not us who say this but the FIA, took great care not to mention that the information was obtained in this way.

"Let us move on. McLaren has confirmed that it has had to install a firewall to prevent further information from Stepney from reaching the team in the form of documents. Furthermore, Coughlan has been asked to tell the very same Stepney to stop sending him information.

"It is a shame that before this, Coughlan asked [Stepney] for information on our brake balance system, then went to lunch with him in Spain, before calmly returning home with 780 pages of designs, diagrams, data and a whole lot more - as stated by the FIA release - with which to design, develop run and race a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car.


Do you want a link too? Here it is, prepare some crow before you start reading! :p :

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61180

Almost forgot: "Bon appetit!" :D

[ioan]

And a good example about Ron Dennis' and Mclaren's "high" moral standards. A good read for the McLaren fanatics:



"A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority.

"I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren. There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9 June last.

"Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the emails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us.

"So, on the one hand, they had come to say 'let us trust one another', and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61180

[Valve Bounce]

As McLaren suspended Coughlan, and notified the FIA & Ferrari, when they discovered he was in possession of Ferrari documents what do you mean by "the right thing"?

Well, Ron could have lifted his cars up on a JCB whatever, with the drivers sitting in them and the motors running, and then set them alight. :eek:
I think that would have appeased all the Ferrari supporters here. :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

And Schumacher was punished for that

.

No he wasn't!! After admitting that he lied, he was never punished for trying to ram Jacques out of the race so he could win the title. He received no fine, no ban (not even suspended) despite Jacques getting banned for one game for some minor infraction that same season.

If it as Alonso that deliberately rammed Massa to win a race this year, there would have been howls of protest from the Ferrari fans and I am quite sure the FIA would give him a ban plus a fine.

[Valve Bounce]

"So I don't understand what happened: if the FIA admits to have established possession of Ferrari material by McLaren, then why is there no retribution? This verdict reminds me of Pontius Pilate."

Well, he was Italian, wasn't he? :rolleyes: These Ferrari supporters seem to get away with murder.

It could also be argued that since Ferrari were shown to have a movable floor, they should have been banned for two races, shouldn't they?

[Valve Bounce]

Those are not allegations, it was all acknowledged by McLaren yesterday, Coughlan received Ferrari documentation in March from Stepney!



Do you want a link too? Here it is, prepare some crow before you start reading! :p :

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61180

Almost forgot: "Bon appetit!" :D

Give it a break, ioan! you sound like a French waiter. :p :

[jjanicke]

...

Could you tell me what use there is to have rules if they are not enforced? ...

To either:

1. Piss you off (which surely seems to be the case with this one)

2. Be ignored in favor of your team (which has certainly been the occured in the recent past. Tire Ovens ...)

When the shoe fits! Right!!! ;)

[Ranger]

Simple solution .
Ferrari appeals .
McLaren fined .

Coughlan and Stepney sanctioned .

Closure .



That's what I would have done.

[Timber]

Well I expect the FIA weighed up the facts (which no-one on here has) and made a impartial decision (which many on here can't) based on those facts.

I think that makes a lot more sense than most of the rantings on here.

you do not know the facts either !!!!!!... It was just plain SPYING and Stealing
thats all !!!!
A company should be responsible for the people that works for them .
I am not a Ferrari fan since MS was racing for them and all the controversy .
I am an Alonso fan and i want him to win the title this year but rules have to be followed ...... You have to be very dumb to believe that nobody at McLaren never saw any of the Ferrari papers .....

[jjanicke]

I think if his car is classed as in a dangerous part of the circuit then the marshalls may aid the dricver back on to the track. I believ this precident was set by Michael Schumacher a few seasons ago when he went off on a corner and was pushed back through the gravel trap by the marshall.

LOL. Yup! He went off while JPM put a pass on him. Was sweet!!!

[F1boat]

Yet at Monza marshalls did not help Alonso is similar situation.

[ojciec dyrektor]

Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours.

I assume banning moving floor was limiting Ferrari advantage. :up:

[hmmm - donuts]

A company should be responsible for the people that works for them.

So does that makes Ferrari responsible for sending McLaren the plans in the first place? OK, bit of a silly question really but plenty of posts suggesting that McLaren should be held accountable for the actions of a rogue employee - surely that argument cuts both ways?

Regards

[Ian McC]

you do not know the facts either !!!!!!...

No, and you certainly don't but that's fine as were not making the decision :p :

[ioan]

I see that people do very well ignore the facts while talking bollocks they dreamed up last night! :D

[Ian McC]

I see that people do very well ignore the facts while talking bollocks they dreamed up last night! :D

I take it you have some fantastic dreams then.

[ioan]

I take it you have some fantastic dreams then.

Not as good as yours it seems! :p :

[Ian McC]

Not as good as yours it seems! :p :


Oh I doubt that, none of mine include Ron appearing as the Devil, which I expect he does in yours :p : :p :

[ioan]

I didn't say that I was having nightmares however! :rolleyes:
Do you have ones with him as an angel? :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

Those are not allegations, it was all acknowledged by McLaren yesterday, Coughlan received Ferrari documentation in March from Stepney!
That's right. Coughlan. Not McLaren. And it was not McLaren who acknowleged it, it was Todt who chose to publicise one piece of information from the hearing.

Ferrari continue to infer, via statements to the media, that McLaren were aware of what Coughlan had received and when, and they infer that as Coughlan had information then McLaren must have used it. McLaren, meanwhile, have consistently maintained that the first they knew of any of this was on the 3rd July.

Todt says that "the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney". As McLaren only discovered that Coughlan had Ferrari documents on the 3rd of July they could not have used them in March!

The FIA ruled that Coughlan had possession of Ferrari documents, therefore, by definition of the sporting regs, McLaren had possession. However, the FIA also ruled that "there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship".

Clearly Coughlan had Ferrari documents in his possession, allegedly sent to him by Stepney (whose role in all of this is conveniently being overlooked), but much as Ferrari huff and puff there is currently insufficient evidence that this information was used.

It really is very simple for Todt and Ferrari. Stop making public statements made up of allegations and inferences, all of which are damaging not only McLaren but F1 as a whole. If Ferrari have evidence to back up these allegations then produce it.

[Hendersen]

At this point, even a video tape that showed all the engineers gathered around the gigantic AO sized pages spread out on a picnic table in the garage and a TV off in the distance playing a show that could precisely date the time to several months ago, the FIA would say. "We have no proof this occured on planet earth." Prove it. This organization is more crooked than a rattlesnake. That was obvious going in when officials were already saying nothing was going to be done before Mclaren even gave their version of things! Ridiculous.

Prove Schuamcher parked it up in monacco. I'm waiting, FIA.

[Valve Bounce]

At this point, even a video tape that showed all the engineers gathered around the gigantic AO sized pages spread out on a picnic table in the garage and a TV off in the distance playing a show that could precisely date the time to several months ago, the FIA would say. "We have no proof this occured on planet earth." Prove it. This organization is more crooked than a rattlesnake. That was obvious going in when officials were already saying nothing was going to be done before Mclaren even gave their version of things! Ridiculous.

Prove Schuamcher parked it up in monacco. I'm waiting, FIA.

Well, SchM did ram Jacques and tried to put him out of the race at Jerez. And after lying about it initially, SchM finally admitted it. Still, the FIA did not punish him.

So there, take that with double brass knobs.!!

[Hendersen]

Well, SchM did ram Jacques and tried to put him out of the race at Jerez. And after lying about it initially, SchM finally admitted it. Still, the FIA did not punish him.

So there, take that with double brass knobs.!!

Huh? He wasn't? He was disqualified from the WDC standings. Ask Mclaren how happy they would be if their drivers were dealt with likewise.

[ioan]

That's right. Coughlan. Not McLaren. And it was not McLaren who acknowleged it, it was Todt who chose to publicise one piece of information from the hearing.

Ferrari continue to infer, via statements to the media, that McLaren were aware of what Coughlan had received and when, and they infer that as Coughlan had information then McLaren must have used it. McLaren, meanwhile, have consistently maintained that the first they knew of any of this was on the 3rd July.

Todt says that "the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney". As McLaren only discovered that Coughlan had Ferrari documents on the 3rd of July they could not have used them in March!

The FIA ruled that Coughlan had possession of Ferrari documents, therefore, by definition of the sporting regs, McLaren had possession. However, the FIA also ruled that "there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship".

Clearly Coughlan had Ferrari documents in his possession, allegedly sent to him by Stepney (whose role in all of this is conveniently being overlooked), but much as Ferrari huff and puff there is currently insufficient evidence that this information was used.

It really is very simple for Todt and Ferrari. Stop making public statements made up of allegations and inferences, all of which are damaging not only McLaren but F1 as a whole. If Ferrari have evidence to back up these allegations then produce it.

Why not make public statements? I thought that we live in a free democratic world?
I told you not once that transparency is what makes things right.
And I also know that you would like not to have Todt tell the truth so you can continue defend McLaren's clumsiness by saying that the papers were assuming things.

All those alleged facts are proven to be reality now, McLaren knew about what Coughlan was doing since March, yet they didn't alert either FIA or Ferrari until Ferrari found out about the whole story!

McLaren are cheaters, plain and simple, and all the crying Ron did in Public for 2 weeks was just acting to impress Joe Peasant!
Yet you say it's Todt's and Ferarri's fault because they share the truth about what is happening. Typical! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Well, SchM did ram Jacques and tried to put him out of the race at Jerez. And after lying about it initially, SchM finally admitted it. Still, the FIA did not punish him.

So there, take that with double brass knobs.!!

With all respect you're talking bollocks Valve. MS was docked all his points for that season.
Let me know when this happens with McLaren for stealing, cheating and lying.

[Bagwan]

That's right. Coughlan. Not McLaren. And it was not McLaren who acknowleged it, it was Todt who chose to publicise one piece of information from the hearing.

Ferrari continue to infer, via statements to the media, that McLaren were aware of what Coughlan had received and when, and they infer that as Coughlan had information then McLaren must have used it. McLaren, meanwhile, have consistently maintained that the first they knew of any of this was on the 3rd July.

Todt says that "the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney". As McLaren only discovered that Coughlan had Ferrari documents on the 3rd of July they could not have used them in March!

The FIA ruled that Coughlan had possession of Ferrari documents, therefore, by definition of the sporting regs, McLaren had possession. However, the FIA also ruled that "there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship".

Clearly Coughlan had Ferrari documents in his possession, allegedly sent to him by Stepney (whose role in all of this is conveniently being overlooked), but much as Ferrari huff and puff there is currently insufficient evidence that this information was used.

It really is very simple for Todt and Ferrari. Stop making public statements made up of allegations and inferences, all of which are damaging not only McLaren but F1 as a whole. If Ferrari have evidence to back up these allegations then produce it.


With them admittedly in posession of the documents , it should be obvious the potential to use the information was there .
Whether his team knew is of no consequence .


We are talking about the leaders of the championship here .

Early this year , commentators were saying how clever Ron's team was , to have asked for a clarification , complete with innuendo about another team , rather than protest .
That was new gear , and not illegal until the clarification .

"We're thinking of putting in a flex floor . Is that legal ?"
Perhaps the FIA should require some dated documents from McLaren to show the experimentation with thier own version that prompted the question .
The idea might have been tossed in over a light lunch at Paragon , with Coughlan looking clever to the team in the process .

It is the fact that this scenario is possible that prompts the article in the code .
This is a mess that one of thier own has initiated , and , since they sign a document that says they are responsible for his actions , they are culpable .


Had they been fined for the infraction , we would merely be arguing about whether it was enough .
Now we have this cloud , with one team insensed , vowing to find evidence , and another , the leader , in danger of being turfed totally if they do .

Pardon me , Scooter , but this jest don't smell right .

[raphael123]

All those alleged facts are proven to be reality now, McLaren knew about what Coughlan was doing since March, yet they didn't alert either FIA or Ferrari until Ferrari found out about the whole story!

McLaren are cheaters, plain and simple, and all the crying Ron did in Public for 2 weeks was just acting to impress Joe Peasant!
Yet you say it's Todt's and Ferarri's fault because they share the truth about what is happening. Typical! :rolleyes:

Not having a go at you here Ioan, but how do you know that McLaren were aware of what Coughlan AND Stepney were doing back in March? Do you know something the FIA don't?

[raphael123]

With all respect you're talking bollocks Valve. MS was docked all his points for that season.
Let me know when this happens with McLaren for stealing, cheating and lying.

Do you think MS was fairly punished?
He got docked his points, but kept his wins, poles, fastest laps etc. For me he should have lost those too, and had a punishment for next season, maybe a 10pt deficit or something. He'd lost out on his aim in 97 already, taking him out of the standings really wasn't much of a punishment.

As for McLaren, it is correct they are found guilty, as a member of staff had that document. However, the fact McLaren didn't know about it, and never used it, means why should the entire team be punished from the stupid actions of a stupid man who happens to be on their payroll, when it wasn't used and no advantage was gained.

Guilty verdict is correct, and the punishment is also more than fair. If it was used, and McLaren knew about it - fair enough, a severe fine and points deduction would be more than fair.

[seppefan]

Why not make public statements? I thought that we live in a free democratic world?
I told you not once that transparency is what makes things right.
And I also know that you would like not to have Todt tell the truth so you can continue defend McLaren's clumsiness by saying that the papers were assuming things.

All those alleged facts are proven to be reality now, McLaren knew about what Coughlan was doing since March, yet they didn't alert either FIA or Ferrari until Ferrari found out about the whole story!

McLaren are cheaters, plain and simple, and all the crying Ron did in Public for 2 weeks was just acting to impress Joe Peasant!
Yet you say it's Todt's and Ferarri's fault because they share the truth about what is happening. Typical! :rolleyes:

ion, we know you have Ferrari running through your veins and why not but please stop being quite so blinkered. You do your cause no good .

[Bagwan]

ion, we know you have Ferrari running through your veins and why not but please stop being quite so blinkered. You do your cause no good .


Excuse me for answering a post to Ioan , but what is so blinkered about what he is saying ?
Flavio is saying the same thing .
Is his blood Ferrari red ?

[DonnieDarco]

I think thats unfair. When Ferrari have been guilty of something everyone has bayed for their blood, including me. Maclaren have a lot to answer for imo, but have been allowed to get away with it - purely, and again this is my opinion only, because of Hamilton leading the championship.

Maclaren knew about that moving floor which Ferrari were bending the rules by using - How did they know? Only one way. Yes, Ferrari were yet again trying to cheat by using it, but doesn't everyone always say that in F1, its up to the FIA to clarify the rules?

The trouble with F1 is that its rotten to its very core. This isn't helping.

[Bagwan]

Yes, Ferrari were yet again trying to cheat by using it

If they were cheating , would McLaren not have protested ?

I think , Donnie , that it was a grey area , one any of the teams might have opted for , had they thought of it first .

NOW , it's illegal , because McLaren asked for a clarification .

There's nothing sinister about the flex floor , but there perhaps is about the one's who asked for the clarification .

[Bagwan]

Hey , I just read a reaction from Todt , in which he states it wasn't a tribunal , only a meeting , and thus , he and the Ferrari lawyers were not allowed to state the complete case .
He and others were only there as observers and got to answer and ask very few questions .

Wouldn't it have been easier to have given them a fine , since they were found guilty anway ?

This is gonna drag this sport into the toilet .

[jso1985]

POW BOOM SLAP MCALRENT LOSES constructor championship after the season....when the obvious evidence "turns up"; after it turns up, berneie :s mokin: will have no choice because the failure to punish might hurt 2008 revenue


Meanwhile to do it now, damages the 2007 revenue and by not doing it now, interest is mantained, indeed heightened, thereby increasing revenue

You people!!!!!!!!!!! the answer is obvious and it is not in the "ultimate truth and justice" but in what is best for the sport (for you dummies that is translated as what is best for bernie :s mokin: 's cash)


geez.... this is like the 10th time you post the same thing... Did Bernie steal your girlfriend?

Being as unbiased as I can be, there was no 100% proof McLaren used the info to take advantage at the championship, so why they should be punished in championship terms?

They should have been fined(heavily) and investigation should continue and if the FIA can prove they used the data in their car, well lte's ban them but until, why the FIA should punish them in the championship? are we hoping they punish them for their actings or just hoping Ferrari benefits from this?, once again I say let's fine them.

[DonnieDarco]

If they were cheating , would McLaren not have protested ?

I think Donnie, that it was a grey area, one any of the teams might have opted for had they thought of it first .

NOW, it's illegal, because McLaren asked for a clarification .

There's nothing sinister about the flex floor, but there perhaps is about the one's who asked for the clarification .

My point was, ALL teams try this exact sort of thing. To me its cheating, but to others its all about interpretation of the rules, and how its up to the FIA to make them crystal clear and beyond interpretation.

Maclaren themselves have tried it on more than once, as I'm sure most of the teams down the pitlane have.

So yes, I understand what you're saying, but I still don't agree with so-called interpretations, when the teams know full well they'd not be allowed to do something :D

But as my brother says, they are merely trying to 'push back the boundraies of motorsport ever further' :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Hey , I just read a reaction from Todt , in which he states it wasn't a tribunal , only a meeting , and thus , he and the Ferrari lawyers were not allowed to state the complete case .
He and others were only there as observers and got to answer and ask very few questions .

Wouldn't it have been easier to have given them a fine , since they were found guilty anway ?

This is gonna drag this sport into the toilet .

This sport is already in the toilet it's just that we only realized it now.

[Bagwan]

[quote="DonnieDarco"]My point was, ALL teams try this exact sort of thing. To me its cheating, but to others its all about interpretation of the rules, and how its up to the FIA to make them crystal clear and beyond interpretation.

So yes, I understand what you're saying, but I still don't agree with so-called interpretations, when the teams know full well they'd not be allowed to do something :D

[quote]

But , that's where we get ALL of the innovation in F1 .

It wasn't cheating until it was clarified , at which time , much to thier chagrin , Ferrari removed the floor suspension devices .

[Valve Bounce]

Huh? He wasn't? He was disqualified from the WDC standings. Ask Mclaren how happy they would be if their drivers were dealt with likewise.

He never lost his wins. Second place in the WDC was not what he wanted. You think that hurt?

[Valve Bounce]

This sport is already in the toilet it's just that we only realized it now.

Now we have 780 large pieces of paper for that toilet :p :

[DonnieDarco]

But, that's where we get ALL of the innovation in F1 .

It wasn't cheating until it was clarified, at which time, much to thier chagrin , Ferrari removed the floor suspension devices .

Yes it was :D

I'm no expert, but even I know a flexible floor is unlikely to cut any ice with the FIA, which is no doubt why Ferrari neglected to mention it :D

However, this thread is about the perfidy or not, of Maclaren. I firmly belive they knew all about it, which is why they asked for clarification. I'd really love to know how it is that they have escaped any kind of actual punishment.

[Roamy]

well I don't think we know all the facts so this one is hard to call. nigel gave somebody info and apparently when Mac got it they did nothing with it. But maybe the mac guy stole it from Nigel - now there is a new twist.

[Timber]

So does that makes Ferrari responsible for sending McLaren the plans in the first place? OK, bit of a silly question really but plenty of posts suggesting that McLaren should be held accountable for the actions of a rogue employee - surely that argument cuts both ways?

Regards

Good , that is a new one , i did not know that it was Ferrari that sent the plans to MCLaren .... you are joking , right ?

[Valve Bounce]

This thread is getting crazier and crazire. I'm really enjoying it now.

I'm just waiting the the Elvis punchlines.

[akv89]

:p :rolleyes:


Typical dumb butt comment--it aint about nothing but bernie's :s mokin: money and revenue----it should read: if proven that maclarent conduct will negatively impact bernie's billions in revenue, mclarent (or ferrariii or whoever) will be deservedly punished very very harshly .....

and ron deniis will be stripped naked of all past titles and ability to compete forced to run naked thro the streets of italy while being flogged by every citzen willing to buy some nine-tails.....but only if the "circuit" pays the appopriate franchise fee of 25 million dollars, with exclusive video rights to Bernie..... :s mokin:

Yes, thank you for questioning my intelligence and then completely ignoring my post to argue about something I made no mention of.

Exactly what was the punishment??? They were found guilty of violating the FIA's own sporting regulations, but there was no punishment! There was no fine! There was no docking of points! There was no race suspension! WHAT was the punishment? To say, "maybe we'll have you back again if we run across something that we can't sweep under the carpet." Yeah, that's a pretty strict punishment alright!

The FIA has lost what little shred of credibility it had left. If they were not going to punish McLaren, they should have found them innocent. But they found McLaren guilty and gave no punishment. I guess it may have slowed the flow of cash into the FIA's (read as Bernie's) pockets. The FIA have lost control of motorsport or rather, they have sold out their control of motorsport in the name of the euro (or pound, or dollar, etc.) Money controls F1, not the FIA and certainly not the fans.
Of course money controls F1, it is a business after all. I'm not questioning that. My opinion is simply this: If an individual commits the crime, punish the individual. If a team commits the crime, punish the team. And if the individual commits a crime that helps the team, punish both. Right now, there is only proof that crime was done on an individual level. If it is proved that McLaren did use Ferrari intelligence in their design, then McLaren should be severely punished.

If the two teams were reversed and the outcome was the same, there would be pitchforks and torches swarming from Britain across the channel and headed for Italy right now!

Pitchforks are an inevitability in F1, regardless of who gets punished.



No he wasn't!! After admitting that he lied, he was never punished for trying to ram Jacques out of the race so he could win the title. He received no fine, no ban (not even suspended) despite Jacques getting banned for one game for some minor infraction that same season.

If it as Alonso that deliberately rammed Massa to win a race this year, there would have been howls of protest from the Ferrari fans and I am quite sure the FIA would give him a ban plus a fine.

Schumacher wanted to win the championship by punting Jacques and the FIA punished him rightly by completely removing it from it. I'm sure drivers would rather get banned from a race instead of getting banned from the championship. If you want to continue discussing this, please PM me.

[Ranger]

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2625548,00.html

Pretty good analysis methinks.

[pino]

First of all please keep M.Schumacher off this thread, he has nothing to do with the topic...thank you !


Back to the topic, I must say that the poll result so far surprises me a lot. Let me explain why : The poll question isn't Has McLaren cheated ? but... Did the FIA make the right decision ? Mc Laren was found guilty of Data possesion, which is against the rules so to totally clear them it was a wrong and unfair decision in my opinion. Let me give you an example...If the police catch you speeding at 200 miles in town, they will punish you no matter you haven't caused an incident and killed someone. Mc Laren did break a rule and they shouldn't walk away without a punishment, so FIA decision wasn't the right one ! I am disgusted by their decision...

[wmcot]

McLaren suspended Coughlan on the 3rd of July, the day they became aware that he had personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee.

So you're saying that McLaren don't know what's going on in their own team unless Ferrari points it out to them?????

And that makes sense to you???

[wmcot]

So if McLaren should be punished due to the stupidity of one of their staff then so should Ferrari as somebody employed by them passed the info.

So a victim should receive the same punishment as a thief??

Man, there are a lot of people with weird logic (or a bit too much alcohol) posting on this forum! Think about what you're saying, people!

[wmcot]

i think ferrari are making themselves look bad in this, it would undermine the sport if mclaren were penalised without proof that an advantage had been gained

And being found guilty isn't reason enough for a punishment???

The arguments are getting dumber all the time!

[wmcot]

It seems to me Toyota are far more guilty of copying Ferrari than Mclaren are.

However Ferrari didnt do anything like this because Toyota were no threat to them.

Actually, they took it to court and people went to prison which, by the way, is where thieves SHOULD go!

[wmcot]

Question to all:

Does anyone here honestly believe that this whole debacle would have been avoided had Ron Dennis publicly stated the fact that Coughlan had Ferrari info to the FIA before the Stepneygate issue arose?? :confused:


It would look a lot less suspicious than holding onto the info for 3 months while doing "nothing" with it! I'd be more inclined to believe in Ron's "integrity" if the employee (Coughlan) had been fired on the spot.

[wmcot]

Mika Salo called a spade a spade :laugh:

I don't think even if at that time Mclaren knew that they were spied by Ferrari, they would take the problem to the surface, as long as Ferrari took the lead.
Similarly I doubt Ferrari would be fussing this around if McLaren is not seriously treating them.

Mika Salo talked about listening to team radio transmissions. Even the fans at NASCAR events can do that! I doubt you could write a 780 page technical document on the entire car by listening to radio conversations. Besides, if the conversations are not scrambled, the airwaves are public property - there is no "theft" if the broadcasts were public!

[wmcot]

you dont seem to be able to digest that fact that it is a RUMOUR that McLaren knew about this document before being informed by Ferrari. If you can prove any different, then please do as your sig says and provide it.

and, can you please answer me the question from this post.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312339&postcount=124

time to take a balanced view for once mate. quite a few Ferrari and McLaren fans on here have but you seerm incapable of even considering any criticism of Ferrari. how comes I can criticise McLaren but you say I have McLaren glasses on :laugh:

come on ioan, give us an honest answer ;)

According to Coughlan's testimony, he showed the documents to several McLaren employees. Therefore, someone in the team knew about it before July 3rd and did not report it (or may have, but it was hushed up?)

And yes, IF Stepney received documents from McLaren, then the same liability and punishment should lie with Ferrari. However, it's probably a bit late for his lawyers to try that one now!

[wmcot]

I suspect you believe Ferrari's allegations that McLaren knew before this date, but that's all they are. Allegations. There is no evidence to prove any different or it would have been presented to the FIA.


Coughlan provided the evidence himself when he admitted showing the documents to other McLaren senior employees. Unless you want to assume that he showed each of these employees on July 3rd, just before the investigators came knocking.

[wmcot]

POW BOOM SLAP MCALRENT LOSES constructor championship after the season....when the obvious evidence "turns up"; after it turns up, berneie :s mokin: will have no choice because the failure to punish might hurt 2008 revenue


Meanwhile to do it now, damages the 2007 revenue and by not doing it now, interest is mantained, indeed heightened, thereby increasing revenue

You people!!!!!!!!!!! the answer is obvious and it is not in the "ultimate truth and justice" but in what is best for the sport (for you dummies that is translated as what is best for bernie :s mokin: 's cash)

Yeah, wouldn't that look great if the final evidence showed up in the middle of the 2011 season and McLaren and Hamilton/Alonso were retroactively stripped of their title and it was awarded to Kimi/Felipe! The FIA would really look like a bunch of dumb a$$es (what am I saying? They already do!)

[wmcot]

I'm satisfied with the decision, because I want the see titles to be decided on the track, not in the cabinets. It doesn't mean that I support excessive cheating, but in that case nothing serious was found, so why bother?

And if Ferrari whip McLaren's backside the rest of the year, then true justice will have been done!

[wmcot]

Well I expect the FIA weighed up the facts (which no-one on here has) and made a impartial decision (which many on here can't) based on those facts.

I think that makes a lot more sense than most of the rantings on here.

I think a lot of them made their "impartial decisions" BEFORE the hearing! (At least 2 people - Bernie and the marshall from Spain)

[wmcot]

Simple solution .
Ferrari appeals .
McLaren fined .

Coughlan and Stepney sanctioned .

Closure .


Sounds good to you and me, but the FIA and common sense are mutually exclusive! :)

[wmcot]

It could also be argued that since Ferrari were shown to have a movable floor, they should have been banned for two races, shouldn't they?

No, because they stopped using it AFTER it became illegal! Your argument would have had Alonso stripped of all his points earned while Renault were using mass dampers - and we've already been through all that...

[wmcot]

A company should be responsible for the people that works for them .


Try getting that one by a court of law! A company IS the sum of the people that work for it. That's why CEOs resign when things below them get screwed up! The corporate chain of command is much like the military - the higher up you are, the more people under you that you are responsible for.

[wmcot]

Yet at Monza marshalls did not help Alonso is similar situation.
Alonso was entirely off the racing surface. Different situation.

[wmcot]

So does that makes Ferrari responsible for sending McLaren the plans in the first place? OK, bit of a silly question really but plenty of posts suggesting that McLaren should be held accountable for the actions of a rogue employee - surely that argument cuts both ways?

Regards

One more time - should the victim of a crime receive the same sentence as the criminal??

Use your heads, people (especially try using the one on your shoulders!)

[wmcot]

As for McLaren, it is correct they are found guilty, as a member of staff had that document. However, the fact McLaren didn't know about it, and never used it, means why should the entire team be punished from the stupid actions of a stupid man who happens to be on their payroll, when it wasn't used and no advantage was gained.


I didn't realize that the McLaren designers were so dumb that with 780 pages of documents sitting around for 3 months, nobody could find any useful information in them!!!

I am also not naive enough to believe that nobody but Coughlan saw them for 3 months!

[wmcot]

Excuse me for answering a post to Ioan , but what is so blinkered about what he is saying ?
Flavio is saying the same thing .
Is his blood Ferrari red ?

It's kind of a strange feeling to be agreeing with Flavio, isn't it?

[wmcot]

I think thats unfair. When Ferrari have been guilty of something everyone has bayed for their blood, including me. Maclaren have a lot to answer for imo, but have been allowed to get away with it - purely, and again this is my opinion only, because of Hamilton leading the championship.

Maclaren knew about that moving floor which Ferrari were bending the rules by using - How did they know? Only one way. Yes, Ferrari were yet again trying to cheat by using it, but doesn't everyone always say that in F1, its up to the FIA to clarify the rules?

The trouble with F1 is that its rotten to its very core. This isn't helping.

That pretty much sums it up!

[wmcot]

This sport is already in the toilet it's just that we only realized it now.

And Bernie's hand is on the flush lever!!!

[wmcot]

My opinion is simply this: If an individual commits the crime, punish the individual. If a team commits the crime, punish the team. And if the individual commits a crime that helps the team, punish both.


So what percentage of individuals on a team have to see the illegal documents before it becomes a TEAM problem? 1%? 10%? 50%? 100%?

[wmcot]

First of all please keep M.Schumacher off this thread, he has nothing to do with the topic...thank you !

It will never happen in our lifetimes! Any time there is a disagreement, we'll hear that MS did this or MS did that. The MS haters cannot let it go.

[Ranger]

Alonso was entirely off the racing surface. Different situation.
That is wrong. Alonso was as much on the tarmac as Schumacher was.

By the way, you just made 20 straight posts in the same thread... :\

[wmcot]

That is wrong. Alonso was as much on the tarmac as Schumacher was.

By the way, you just made 20 straight posts in the same thread... :\

I guess I remember the Alonso episode incorrectly.

My internet was down the whole day yesterday or the posts would have been spread out more evenly. (BTW - what's the record for most posts in a row?) ;)

[raphael123]

I think thats unfair. When Ferrari have been guilty of something everyone has bayed for their blood, including me. Maclaren have a lot to answer for imo, but have been allowed to get away with it - purely, and again this is my opinion only, because of Hamilton leading the championship.

Maclaren knew about that moving floor which Ferrari were bending the rules by using - How did they know? Only one way. Yes, Ferrari were yet again trying to cheat by using it, but doesn't everyone always say that in F1, its up to the FIA to clarify the rules?

The trouble with F1 is that its rotten to its very core. This isn't helping.

What exactly have McLaren 'got away with'? One member of staff had a document belonging to another's team, the McLaren operation weren't aware of this, they didn't benefit from it, and it wasn't used. Why should they be docked points? Drivers are allowed to keep their points when the team are found to have broken the rules because they weren't involved, so why should McLaren be punished when it was only one person?

I think McLaren were right to be found guilty, as you win as a team, and lose as a team, but the punishment was right, as McLaren haven't benefitted from it, and weren't even aware of it. If it later comes to light they were aware of it, and did use it, then I agree, they should be punished...severely!

[wmcot]

but the punishment was right, as McLaren haven't benefitted from it, and weren't even aware of it.


Right, we have THEIR word on that!!! (Backed up by RD's "integrity!")

How appropriate that this hearing took place in France, land of "it's easier to give in to your enemy than to fight him!"

[pino]

What exactly have McLaren 'got away with'? One member of staff had a document belonging to another's team, the McLaren operation weren't aware of this, they didn't benefit from it, and it wasn't used. Why should they be docked points? Drivers are allowed to keep their points when the team are found to have broken the rules because they weren't involved, so why should McLaren be punished when it was only one person?

I think McLaren were right to be found guilty, as you win as a team, and lose as a team, but the punishment was right, as McLaren haven't benefitted from it, and weren't even aware of it. If it later comes to light they were aware of it, and did use it, then I agree, they should be punished...severely!

Mc Laren did break a rule, and normally in life and sport, when you do break a rule you get a punishment...

[raphael123]

Of course money controls F1, it is a business after all. I'm not questioning that. My opinion is simply this: If an individual commits the crime, punish the individual. If a team commits the crime, punish the team. And if the individual commits a crime that helps the team, punish both. Right now, there is only proof that crime was done on an individual level. If it is proved that McLaren did use Ferrari intelligence in their design, then McLaren should be severely punished.


Spot on




Schumacher wanted to win the championship by punting Jacques and the FIA punished him rightly by completely removing it from it. I'm sure drivers would rather get banned from a race instead of getting banned from the championship. If you want to continue discussing this, please PM me.

Not really. Schumacher's punishment was lame to say the least. Getting removed from 2nd place in the championship, after the championship is over is nothing - especially as he got to keep all his wins, poles and fastest laps. It's like removing Hill from the '99 championship standings after he retired if we found out he had done something awful that year - not much of a punishment is it?

[raphael123]

So you're saying that McLaren don't know what's going on in their own team unless Ferrari points it out to them?????

And that makes sense to you???

I think they know more about it than you.
The fact Coughlan's wife went to a public library to photocopy it shows McLaren weren't aware he had it. If they were, and they were ok about it, he would have done it at work where no one other than McLaren would have known about it.

[ojciec dyrektor]

Mc Laren did break a rule, and normally in life and sport, when you do break a rule you get a punishment...

Who is McLaren? Coughlan did break a rule, not team McLaren.

In 1994 team Benetton break the rule and wasn't punished. What was Yours judgement in that case?

[raphael123]

So a victim should receive the same punishment as a thief??

Man, there are a lot of people with weird logic (or a bit too much alcohol) posting on this forum! Think about what you're saying, people!

Ferrari got caught cheating, and are moaning that they got caught cheating, through the team finding out by cheating.

I'd hardly call 'Ferrari' or 'Stepney' the victims. As you say, think about what you're saying :)

[raphael123]

I didn't realize that the McLaren designers were so dumb that with 780 pages of documents sitting around for 3 months, nobody could find any useful information in them!!!

I am also not naive enough to believe that nobody but Coughlan saw them for 3 months!

From what I understand, only Coughlan had the document, and from what I gather, the FIA have inspected the Mclaren 2007 car, and there is no evidence that suggests they have used that information on this years car.

Do you have a family member who works for McLaren who knows more is it? :confused:

[raphael123]

So what percentage of individuals on a team have to see the illegal documents before it becomes a TEAM problem? 1%? 10%? 50%? 100%?

This may be a silly comparison. But if a family member went and stole £1m and gave you half, and you knew it was stolen, you'd get punished and rightly so. If they stole £1m, and didn't give you any of it - why should you get punished?

If your working for a bank, and you steal money from another bank, should the whole bank be punished?

[wmcot]

Ferrari got caught cheating, and are moaning that they got caught cheating, through the team finding out by cheating.

I'd hardly call 'Ferrari' or 'Stepney' the victims. As you say, think about what you're saying :)

Talk about distorting the truth! McLaren were found GUILTY! Ferrari weren't even on trial!

Lose the Ferrari-bashing mentality! If someone sneezes in the F1 paddock, it's because Ferrari cheated! Doesn't it get old?????

I DID think about what I said - my vision is not distorted by my hatred!

[raphael123]

Right, we have THEIR word on that!!! (Backed up by RD's "integrity!")

How appropriate that this hearing took place in France, land of "it's easier to give in to your enemy than to fight him!"

What word do you want?
You want to punish a team on an 'assumption' do you? Or on Ferrari, the biggest cheaters in F1!!?

Come on mate, have a think before you post

[raphael123]

Mc Laren did break a rule, and normally in life and sport, when you do break a rule you get a punishment...

What punishment would you have given them?
Should they be punished if they weren't even aware that an individual broke the rules?

[wmcot]

This may be a silly comparison. But if a family member went and stole £1m and gave you half, and you knew it was stolen, you'd get punished and rightly so. If they stole £1m, and didn't give you any of it - why should you get punished?

If your working for a bank, and you steal money from another bank, should the whole bank be punished?

Part 1 - I have no legal authority over a family member unless they are a minor. If they are a minor, parents are usually held responsible for damages done!

Part 2 - If my stealing money from another bank was known by somebody in my bank and they did not report it, they are an accomplice and are guilty.

More questions?

[raphael123]

Talk about distorting the truth! McLaren were found GUILTY! Ferrari weren't even on trial!

Lose the Ferrari-bashing mentality! If someone sneezes in the F1 paddock, it's because Ferrari cheated! Doesn't it get old?????

I DID think about what I said - my vision is not distorted by my hatred!

Mine either. But Ferrari claim McLaren must have seen the dossier before they claim, as they knew about Ferrari's illegal floors.

As I say, I'd hardly call Ferrari the 'victims' in all this.

What was your take on the 94 situation btw?

[wmcot]

What punishment would you have given them?
Should they be punished if they weren't even aware that an individual broke the rules?

They should have at least been fined. F1 is a TEAM sport. You can't distance yourself from a member of your team because he did something you didn't authorize. You're both part of the same team. (And there were those at McLaren who WERE aware because Coughlan admitted showing them the documents.)

[wmcot]

Mine either. But Ferrari claim McLaren must have seen the dossier before they claim, as they knew about Ferrari's illegal floors.

As I say, I'd hardly call Ferrari the 'victims' in all this.

What was your take on the 94 situation btw?

The floors were NOT ILLEGAL until AFTER Melbourne! The rule was specified before Malaysia and Ferrari complied - no problem.

If I "obtain" all your personal, financial information, are you a victim? Does it matter if I don't think you gained your wealth legally?

94 was 13 years ago - there's enough to consider right now. We can't always live in the past.

[wmcot]

What word do you want?
You want to punish a team on an 'assumption' do you? Or on Ferrari, the biggest cheaters in F1!!?

Come on mate, have a think before you post

No, I want to punish a team on being found GUILTY by the FIA!!!! Why does everyone think McLaren are innocent of all wrongdoing when they were found GUILTY?????

[Ian McC]

No, I want to punish a team on being found GUILTY by the FIA!!!! Why does everyone think McLaren are innocent of all wrongdoing when they were found GUILTY?????

Because they were found guilty for the actions of one of their staff, not the team as a whole.

[Valve Bounce]

Schumacher wanted to win the championship by punting Jacques and the FIA punished him rightly by completely removing it from it. I'm sure drivers would rather get banned from a race instead of getting banned from the championship. If you want to continue discussing this, please PM me.


That is BS. He kept his wins. Why the hell would I want to discuss this with you via PM's? The facts are the guy lied, and he kept his wins after he was "punished" by what? That he didn't want to come second by ramming some other guy? If you want to discuss this, post your remarks here so it can come under the scrutiny of all forum members, including Ferrari supporters.

I am sure SchM was happy not to be banned from subsequent races in te following year. Tell me otherwise.

[Valve Bounce]

Mc Laren did break a rule, and normally in life and sport, when you do break a rule you get a punishment...

Can you please send an e-mail to SchM about that. Thanks!!

[ioan]

Who is McLaren? Coughlan did break a rule, not team McLaren.

In 1994 team Benetton break the rule and wasn't punished. What was Yours judgement in that case?

The FIA rules were posted in this thread, those rules state that a team is responsible for the actions of their employees!
How many times should this be posted until some of you take into account the rules?

The 94 Benneton case was threated exactly like this one. Bernie wanted it all swept under the carpet and Max agreed with him, we all know the rest.
I posted a link to a site where Bennetton's lawyer explains how everything happened, it's somewhere in this very thread. Take your time and read it, it will give you info about how the things are done by the FIA.

[El Sween]

I hope to God that some of you never end up on a jury or in the legal profession.

[ioan]

What punishment would you have given them?
Should they be punished if they weren't even aware that an individual broke the rules?

I know you don't like Ferrari, I also know you don't like us Ferrari fans around here.
If however you consider yourself a correct person read the articles in the following links before making any further comments. It's all in there:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61180

http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php?postid=1294222

It's a long read, but you might understand why Bernie and the FIA wanted and managed not to punish Benetton in 1994 and McLaren now even though both teams pleaded guilty for the charges brought on them.

[ioan]

Because they were found guilty for the actions of one of their staff, not the team as a whole.

Selective reading and comprehension doesn't make you any better. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Back to the topic, I must say that the poll result so far surprises me a lot. Let me explain why : The poll question isn't Has McLaren cheated ? but... Did the FIA make the right decision ? Mc Laren was found guilty of Data possesion, which is against the rules so to totally clear them it was a wrong and unfair decision in my opinion. Let me give you an example...If the police catch you speeding at 200 miles in town, they will punish you no matter you haven't caused an incident and killed someone. Mc Laren did break a rule and they shouldn't walk away without a punishment, so FIA decision wasn't the right one ! I am disgusted by their decision...

You should have expected it pino. Did Bernie was one of those who had to decide on this and he was saying it for weeks that nothing will be done. The Spanish guy also was saying the same. When the judge talks, before the trial, about how there will be no punishment you can't expect any punishment.

As for the poll results I was also expecting it.
People in here do hate Ferrari no matter what they say, and hate isn't exactly the sentiment that leaves room for objective thinking.

I for one hope that Ferrari will take this matter to a legal court and after they win it they rub it in Max and Bernie's nose.

[pino]

I am sure SchM was happy not to be banned from subsequent races in te following year. Tell me otherwise.



Can you please send an e-mail to SchM about that. Thanks!!


Valve, I've asked to keep MS off this thread...

[jas123f1]

The FIA rules were posted in this thread, those rules state that a team is responsible for the actions of their employees!
How many times should this be posted until some of you take into account the rules?

The 94 Benneton case was threated exactly like this one. Bernie wanted it all swept under the carpet and Max agreed with him, we all know the rest.
I posted a link to a site where Bennetton's lawyer explains how everything happened, it's somewhere in this very thread. Take your time and read it, it will give you info about how the things are done by the FIA.

I agree, FIA has their rules and also McLaren employers are bound to them.

FIA also said that McLaren has broken those rules - but surprise surprise – FIA did not give them any punishment. For me that's unbelievable - but FIA doesn't care if I and thousands other people like it or don't.
It will be interesting to see what happens when F1 circus go to Italia. I hope of course that everything will be as usual but realize at same time what people in Italia think about this mess. :)

[Ian McC]

Selective reading and comprehension doesn't make you any better. :rolleyes:

Irrelevant, that's what they based their decision on, not what I think so don't waste your time slagging me off, go shout about the FIA until you're blue in the face.

Besides, you are a fine one to talk, you've had years of practice at it.

[seppefan]

Excuse me for answering a post to Ioan , but what is so blinkered about what he is saying ?
Flavio is saying the same thing .
Is his blood Ferrari red ?


Flavio saying the same thing actually makes me even more sceptical. Different camps, different views, different pressures from sponsors and other interested parties, who knows. But I still feel Mclaren did not know and that coughlan acted with stepney to take a team ( and secrets ) to Honda or any team interested in paying.

Can you imagine Ron telling coughlan's wife to bring in a copy made at the local prontaprint. come on get real.

[ArrowsFA1]

Why not make public statements? I thought that we live in a free democratic world?
Of course, but IMHO Ferrari are making statements that are very selective in their content.

I repeat once again, if Ferrari have evidence that McLaren as a team (as opposed to Coughlan the individual) had knowledge of, and used, the Ferrari documents prior to the 3rd July then produce it. So far they have not done so, and yet they continue to make public statements that damage McLaren and F1 as a whole.

All those alleged facts are proven to be reality now, McLaren knew about what Coughlan was doing since March, yet they didn't alert either FIA or Ferrari until Ferrari found out about the whole story!
No they're not reality ioan. Ferrari repeatedly imply that McLaren knew about what Coughlan was doing, but this only came to McLaren's attention when they were made aware of Ferrari's legal action and carried out their own investigation on the 3rd July.

McLaren are cheaters, plain and simple, and all the crying Ron did in Public for 2 weeks was just acting to impress Joe Peasant!
Yet you say it's Todt's and Ferarri's fault because they share the truth about what is happening. Typical! :rolleyes:
The FIA hearing has shown that there is no evidence that McLaren were, at any point, cheating. However, the FIA did say that if evidence comes to light that changes this judgement then McLaren will be penalised. All Ferrari need to do is back up their allegations. Why can't or won't they?

So you're saying that McLaren don't know what's going on in their own team unless Ferrari points it out to them?????
If Coughlan was working with Stepney with a view to moving to Honda then why would he share Ferrari information with anyone at McLaren. Why hand over (presumably) valuable information to Honda's rivals?

Ferrari did not knock on Ron's door and say "do you know what one of your employees has been up to". They took legal action against Coughlan and from that point it was obvious that McLaren would become aware of the situation.

Sorry, but IMHO right from the beginning of this Ferrari have sought to implicate McLaren in something that began with one of their employees at every opportunity. Of course I can understand the assumption that as a McLaren employee had possession of Ferrari documents then the whole team must have known about them. But that is an assumption, and one that ignores many other questions that are yet to be answered.