Talking points Laguna

[Gibbsy]

I think a problem with this forum is the lack of analysis. I love my motogp, but rarely come here due to the slow movement and lack of discussion of the finer points of the sport. Maybe one consolidated thread where we discuss the key issues will have a positive effect on discussion. Ill get the ball rolling, feel free to add your own.

1. Championship over?

Casey leads Rossi by 44 points and Pedrosa by over 60. He doesnt even need to keep winning races now. Straight forward, dare i say it, Hayden '06 style cruise and collect will do the job for him. Does Rossi stand a chance? Not to mention that on Michelin tracks Rossi will face stiff competition from Repsol Honda whereas Stoner looks unbeatable on the Bridgestone tracks.

2. Silly season.

Ducati have announced Marco Melandri. Should be one hell of a pairing with Stoner next year. Whos going to get the Gresini seat? Hopkins looking likely for a move the the green team. To be partnered by Westy or RDP? If so, who gets the vacant Suzuki seat? Where does Lorenzo fit in to all of this? What about Dovi?

3. hopping mad?

Hopkins tries to kick a fellow competitor while riding a motogp bike.......... Why isnt this considered to be recklessly dangerous? Surely he should be penalised. A 2 race ban perhaps?

4. Aussie Aussie Aussie!

Stoner looking good for the championship. Vermuleun scores his first dry podium and Westy looking impressive. And on West.... if the guy can go from being uncompetitive in 250s to competitive in Motogp on what clearly isnt the best bike, then it makes you wonder exactly how awful his old Aprillia must have been...

Please respond and / or add your own...

[Wim_Impreza]

My respons:
1 Stoner has really a good package with the Ducati and off course he is an excellent driver. The Bridgestones were very good in Laguna Seca, but at the Sachsenring and in Assen the Michelins were better. No one doubt Stoner will win more races this year. He is very consistent and has no crashes or mechanical failures until now. Rossi will take more wins, but I think Stoner will be the new champion before the last race. The Doctor can have a fight with Pedrosa for second place in the championship.

2 Stoner and Melandri will be a dream team next year. Melandri is very consistent too and is fast. Maybe Lorenzo will take the Gresini seat. I don't think Doviziosi will be in MotoGP next year. I am thinking he will do again a season in the 250cc. I hope Hopkins and West will be with Kawasaki next year. Randy de Puniet is crashing to much.

3 A penalization would be fair.

4 The Aussies have an excellent season in MotoGP. Stoner is definately a very good driver. Vermeulen has proved that he can drive very fast in dry conditions. I love the style of West and I am really a fan of him. He did again a good job.

[NinjaMaster]

I think a problem with this forum is the lack of analysis. I love my motogp, but rarely come here due to the slow movement and lack of discussion of the finer points of the sport. Maybe one consolidated thread where we discuss the key issues will have a positive effect on discussion. Ill get the ball rolling, feel free to add your own.

1. Championship over?

Casey leads Rossi by 44 points and Pedrosa by over 60. He doesnt even need to keep winning races now. Straight forward, dare i say it, Hayden '06 style cruise and collect will do the job for him. Does Rossi stand a chance? Not to mention that on Michelin tracks Rossi will face stiff competition from Repsol Honda whereas Stoner looks unbeatable on the Bridgestone tracks.

2. Silly season.

Ducati have announced Marco Melandri. Should be one hell of a pairing with Stoner next year. Whos going to get the Gresini seat? Hopkins looking likely for a move the the green team. To be partnered by Westy or RDP? If so, who gets the vacant Suzuki seat? Where does Lorenzo fit in to all of this? What about Dovi?

3. hopping mad?

Hopkins tries to kick a fellow competitor while riding a motogp bike.......... Why isnt this considered to be recklessly dangerous? Surely he should be penalised. A 2 race ban perhaps?

4. Aussie Aussie Aussie!

Stoner looking good for the championship. Vermuleun scores his first dry podium and Westy looking impressive. And on West.... if the guy can go from being uncompetitive in 250s to competitive in Motogp on what clearly isnt the best bike, then it makes you wonder exactly how awful his old Aprillia must have been...

Please respond and / or add your own...
A lot of this has already been covered.

1. Championship not over. Casey has one hand on the trophy but hasn't sewn it up mathematically yet. All it takes is a Guintoli/Hoffman incident and the title is wide open again.

2. There is a whole rumours thread that discusses the silly season. Hopkins isn't likely for Kawasaki, he is confirmed. Lorenzo will ride a Factory Yamaha in his own Fortuna team. Candidates for the other rides:
Suzuki - Capirex, de Angeles, Elias. Perhaps Dovi a chance?
Kwak - RdP is liekly, West if he starts beating Randy and/or if Kwak run a thrid bike.
Tech3 - Edwards, maybe Toseland and running on Michelins.
Gresini - will they even be around? Talk of JiR running 2 bikes and Ten Kate wanting to step up but then Ten Kate now want to field a satellite WSB team as well. Dovi, de Angeles perhaps as riders?

3. Hopkins was fined $2000. Slap on the wrist, just not the one with his $25k watch on it!

4. MotoGP made up for a dismal Aussie sporting weekend. Lost the Rugby and Netball to the Kiwi's, the Soccerto Japan (hurrah!) and WSB and WSS wasn't a great triumph for us either.

Analysed enough? ;)

[tha_jackal]

1. Championship over?

Casey leads Rossi by 44 points and Pedrosa by over 60. He doesnt even need to keep winning races now. Straight forward, dare i say it, Hayden '06 style cruise and collect will do the job for him. Does Rossi stand a chance? Not to mention that on Michelin tracks Rossi will face stiff competition from Repsol Honda whereas Stoner looks unbeatable on the Bridgestone tracks.

2. Silly season.

Ducati have announced Marco Melandri. Should be one hell of a pairing with Stoner next year. Whos going to get the Gresini seat? Hopkins looking likely for a move the the green team. To be partnered by Westy or RDP? If so, who gets the vacant Suzuki seat? Where does Lorenzo fit in to all of this? What about Dovi?

3. hopping mad?

Hopkins tries to kick a fellow competitor while riding a motogp bike.......... Why isnt this considered to be recklessly dangerous? Surely he should be penalised. A 2 race ban perhaps?

4. Aussie Aussie Aussie!

Stoner looking good for the championship. Vermuleun scores his first dry podium and Westy looking impressive. And on West.... if the guy can go from being uncompetitive in 250s to competitive in Motogp on what clearly isnt the best bike, then it makes you wonder exactly how awful his old Aprillia must have been...

Please respond and / or add your own...

1. No, its not over by a long shot.. Rossi needs to gain on average around 6 points a race for the rest of the season to take the title. Over the break, Yamaha will improve the M1 ALOT, of that I'm sure. Rossi will be back and raring to go come Brno. If he goes on to win every race for the rest of the year (its possible, hes done it in the past) then Stoner has to finish second every race or he will relinquish the title. Stoner is under immense pressure for the rest of the year and i believe all it could take is one crash in a race, one mistake and the memories of last year's crash prone season may come flooding back.

2. Ninja got it just about spot on.. Except its rumoured Ben Spies is the hot favorite to take the vacant Suzuki seat due to Schwantz's influence with the manufacturer. I think Capirossi will remain at Ducati on a third bike and I also think Ant will start beating Randy for the rest of the year, weather its enough to make team green keep him on or not is another question, another team may pick him up though.

3. I think a fine, while pretty well meaningless for Hopkins, with the amount of money he earns, would be a sufficient penalty, it just needs to be a more severe amount.

4. On Ant, I think it shows Aprilia pretty well treated him like **** during his time there, thats all there is to it. They promised him every chance and gave him amateurish hacks for engineers and a POS bike that could hardly be called semi-factory. I believe good things come to those who wait, Ant has waited more than long enough, now hes not going to let his chances in GP go.

In a way, i think youve over analysed things a bit mate. This forum is one of the best on the net and its a bit offensive for you to question the content of our posts.. We do things our own way and we're a happy, welcoming and cohesive bunch, lets keep things the way they are.. Nice try though..

[patnicholls]

In a way, i think youve over analysed things a bit mate. This forum is one of the best on the net and its a bit offensive for you to question the content of our posts.. We do things our own way and we're a happy, welcoming and cohesive bunch, lets keep things the way they are.. Nice try though..

Calm down folks, I'm pretty sure no harm was meant. :) Although Jake's point is a good one, it's a good bunch in here. And it used to be a looooooooot quieter than it is now.

In terms of long analysis posts, things have got a little quieter since Matt stopped being on so much, and I've not been around as much this year.

Good thread though, some interesting points raised.

[ArmchairBikeFan]

1) I think last year showed us that the championship isn't over until it's over. Didn't Rossi pick up something like 45 points between Laguna and Valencia?

2) Silly season - as silly as ever.

3) Hopper Hopping Mad, no surprise there, but I've seen worse in 125cc qualifying sessions a couple of times this year. Of course, Hopper got in the way of Rossi earlier in the session, so he didn't really have the right to spit the dummy at Checa.

4) Ant West: yep, his 250 was awful. So was Chas Davies's 250, as we can see since his fastest lap at Laguna was just one tenth slower than Barros's best on an identical bike. Moral of the story: it's difficult to get a decent 250 ride without bringing loads of cash to the table, regardless of how quick you are.

[The Phantom]

I would agree that there isn't heaps of traffic here, but there's very little noise either. Just a bunch of enthusiasts who know what is worth discussing, and what isn't :) And yep most of this has been covered, you just need to look around.

At this point last year, Hayden had six points less than Stoner has, and he didn't just cruise to the title, he had to fight all the way against a rapidly gaining Rossi - we all know he was very lucky to have won it. Rossi is not finished by a long shot.

I did the possible point outcomes a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118982

I guess you missed that Gibbsy ;) , now I'll do them again. It makes for interesting reading...

Rossi for 7 race wins and 0 second places - 352 final points

Stoner for 0 race wins and 7 second places - 361 final points

Stoner simply has to finish second to Rossi for the rest of the year to take the title...

[mx311]

1. Championship over?
No, not yet. The mid-season break give Yamaha and Honda time to catch up a bit, same goes for Michelin. Plus, the pressure of closing in on a title is something new for Casey, we have to wait and see how he reacts. Plus, can you ever count out Valentino Rossi?


2. Silly season.
Best look in the 'Rumour Mill' thread as Ninja suggested for updates on that. :)


3. hopping mad?
Well, Hoppa has shown he's got a temper before hasn't he. A fine this time, suspension next time imo.


4. Aussie Aussie Aussie!
It was a great race for the Aussies (and together with Mark Webber's podium and Aussie born Scott Dixon's win in the IRL) saved an otherwise horrible sporting weekend for Australia. Well done lads.

[Gibbsy]

In a way, i think youve over analysed things a bit mate. This forum is one of the best on the net and its a bit offensive for you to question the content of our posts.. We do things our own way and we're a happy, welcoming and cohesive bunch, lets keep things the way they are.. Nice try though..

Look, sorry to offend, it wasnt meant that way.

This is a fantastic forum. Basically i lurk here regularly and contribute occasionally because im a recent fan of the sport. Something of an F1 refugee, fed up with the lack of real racing in that formula. I know that what i do read here will be quality comments posted by quality people who know a lot more about the sport than I.

I guess what im getting at is that if you look at an average f1 forum, you will see a thread for every single aspect, or talking point, of every single race. Typically a mixture of quality comment and unfortunately bitching, driver bashing, trolling etc. This forum is free of the latter, which is great. I just thought i had an idea that might increase the former. Which it has to an extent. Anyway, yeah, sorry to offend again.

Peace.

[Gibbsy]

Oh as for Hopper, I realised he is confirmed in the contractual sense..... But im still not sure. He may badly injure himself in a "kicking somebody at 100mph" related incident. :D

[tha_jackal]

Maybe 'offensive' was a bit of an overly strong word used by me.. Maybe i should of said, bold, or hasty or something :) I wasnt offended, tis all good, and MotoGP sh*ts on F1 :p

[ChrisS]

4) Ant West: yep, his 250 was awful. So was Chas Davies's 250, as we can see since his fastest lap at Laguna was just one tenth slower than Barros's best on an identical bike. Moral of the story: it's difficult to get a decent 250 ride without bringing loads of cash to the table, regardless of how quick you are.

Most of the people posting in the motorcycle racing forum are Australians and I find their views on the season so far are different from a few other forums I visit and from a few friends I talk MotoGP with over MSN messenger

For most of the people I talk racing with, West is neither hot nor cold. Even Stoner doesn't cause much reaction with his wins, not the same as when Rossi was racing against Biaggi or against Sete

I'm just curious what other people in this forum think

[Wim_Impreza]

Most of the people posting in the motorcycle racing forum are Australians and I find their views on the season so far are different from a few other forums I visit and from a few friends I talk MotoGP with over MSN messenger

For most of the people I talk racing with, West is neither hot nor cold. Even Stoner doesn't cause much reaction with his wins, not the same as when Rossi was racing against Biaggi or against Sete

I'm just curious what other people in this forum think

I think that Stoner could be the next Mick Doohan. He is so talented and when you see how much he learned and he is only 21, he is the guy for now and for the future. West is also a good driver and I think he will beat Randy de Puniet in the next races. He definately deserves a ride in the MotoGP 2008 season.

[ChrisS]

I think that Stoner could be the next Mick Doohan.

I wasn't talking about rider talent but the Doohan comparison is good because he was in the same situation. He won races and championships but no-one cared much. By Repsol's own admission Criville's one championship was worth more than Doohan's 5 because Criville was more "popular"

Is Stoner the same?

[leopard]

Although some friend whispered me that Stoner seriously challenge the title, seems I have to stick with opinion that the pinnacle of motogp was during rivalries between Rossi and Biaggi or Sete.

Not sure about Doohan and Criville, personally I knew more Dohan, You must be kidding if a championship worth more than 5? :\

[Wim_Impreza]

I wasn't talking about rider talent but the Doohan comparison is good because he was in the same situation. He won races and championships but no-one cared much. By Repsol's own admission Criville's one championship was worth more than Doohan's 5 because Criville was more "popular"

Is Stoner the same?

Crivillé was my favourite in that time, that was even a better time than now. Gibernau was one of his teammates in 1999 and he was the whole year of the pace. I am feeling sorry for Doohan that he must retire after his big accident.

[Mach24]

I wasn't talking about rider talent but the Doohan comparison is good because he was in the same situation. He won races and championships but no-one cared much. By Repsol's own admission Criville's one championship was worth more than Doohan's 5 because Criville was more "popular"

Is Stoner the same?

Doohan was a machine, a machine on the track and off it. Mick is one of the sports greatest but will perhaps be seen as winning when the competition was thin. He dominated Criville and everyone else to the point were GP Motorcycling was mundane.

Stoner on the other hand appears to have flair and a winning smile. Casey commenced his roadracing career in the UK and Spain so whilst an Aussie he is an Aussie of the world!

Stoner has personality but will never have the same support (passionate support) as some of the European riders. I also think it would be fair to say Casey was just another name last season, some probably did not really know or rate him...... Thats changed.

[neninja]

Can I recommend you read 'How to make friends and influence people' by Dale Carnegie

Not the greatest opening sentence to a thread if you want a decent response.

Back to the question -
1. Theres still far too many rounds left to make an judgements.

Rossi is still the best rider but is under severe pressure. More so than in 2006 I beleive. That year he suffered plenty of bad luck with mechanical problems and crashes that weren't his fault. That meant he went to the races during the 2nd half of the year with his self belief intact. This year he's being beaten by Casey fair and square on a regular basis. Can Rossi cope with this as he's never been put under this sort of relentless pressure by anyone before. He's already started complaining about his bike and tyres. In the past it was Rossi's opponents who we expected to hear that from - Max, Sete etc.

If I was a betting man I would have to say that the Casey, Ducati, Bridgestone combination is near perfect this year and Casey will end up winning the championship but I do expect Rossi, Yamaha and Michelin to get their act together and start challenging harder.

2. Most has already been discussed at length but I'll be interested to see if any riders from outside the GP paddock get rides in 08. Toseland, Chaz Davies, Spies etc. There are so many good young riders coming from 250's it's going to be hard for the Superbike lads to get seats with the top teams.

3. I can totally sympathise with Hopper frustration. He didn't actually connect with Checa - it was more just showing his anger. Hopper was in with a chance of a front row spot and an elderly past it journeyman was crusing on the racing line. Checa should have received a fine in my opinion.

Kurtis Roberts should also have been fined for the Marco incident. These guys should know better. Frankly Kurtis shouldn't be there at all.

4. Aussie sportsmen do seem to have more of a 'win, win, win' attitude than some northern Europeans. It's a shame some of the talented Brit riders wouldn't show more of this. British sport is riddled with this 'he tried hard' mentality.
Tommy Hill, James Haydon, Karl Harris, Chris Walker, Kagayama etc etc are all popular riders in the UK but none have won a Superbike championship but they are all triers. For some reason the UK loves a trier instead of a winner.
Carl Fogarty and Hodgson have both actually won WSB titles but you wouldn't call either of them popular anymore. Bizarre really.
Henman goes out of the 2nd round at Wimbledon and gets a standing ovation. Whats that all about - he should be booed off for under achieving again. Fulham lost in a friendly football match yesterday and the manager said he was very pleased with their performance. What!!!

The day losing is seen as unacceptable in the UK we might actually have a MotoGP champion.

[Ranger]

The day losing is seen as unacceptable in the UK we might actually have a MotoGP champion.

They've produced some of the best grand prix riders ever - Hailwood, Surtees, Duke, and then Graham, Read and Sheene - so what happened? :\

[neninja]

They've produced some of the best grand prix riders ever - Hailwood, Surtees, Duke, and then Graham, Read and Sheene - so what happened? :\

Mediocrity has become acceptable as long as the person is seen to be trying 100%

All those guys went out with only one thing in mind - coming 1st.

It's a generational change and is largely down the increase in political correctness in the UK which resulted in schools pushing 'non' competitive sports. No-one wants anyone to be upset by being branded a loser. Instead everyone is a winner. Utter nonsense that gets me so mad. Life is competitive for goodness sake. Anyway rant over.

James Toseland, Bradley Smith, Jonathan Rea, Chaz Davies, Tom Sykes are all bucking the trend but BSB has a tradition of employing ageing journeymen who just want to collect their pay packet. It's good to see the some new blood in there this year - Rea, Camier, Sykes, Crutchlow.

[ArmchairBikeFan]

Sometimes I think it's the other way round. To current British riders, winning means too much.
They're always saying that they won't move to from BSB to World Supers or from WSBK to MotoGP unless they can win races. Well, Carlos Checa wasn't going to win races at Tech 3 Yamaha, but he rode the wheels off the thing and impressed the hell out of everybody, bagging a Honda ride. (OK, he picked the one year when Honda are rubbish!)
There's certainly a strange difference between Brits and Aussies, though. The constant complaint is that Brits can't find sponsorship and don't have the right passport. However, when Aussies like Stoner, Vermeulen and West (sponsorless, and don't have Spanish or Italian passports as far as I know) get decent rides, people in Britain claim it's because of Australian mechanics and engineers talking them up in the paddock. Yeah, right!
I think British riders tend to rest on their laurels. They'd rather be a big fish in a small pond.

[patnicholls]

The latter part of this thread could be merged into the 'Are Brits Negative?' one, might have a think about that later although it would be confusing :)

It is true that Brits have done...nothing at MotoGP level for some time, although with Bradley Smith we've got a real prospect for the future who's already on the right path with backing (the rumour has him being offered an Aspar Aprilia for next year). If JT takes this year's WSB title he should move to MotoGP, give it a try. Neil Hodgson may have had a terrible time with D'Antin Ducati but I don't think worse of him for having tried it. The two years after that he beat each of the Bostrom brothers pretty easily on their home turf. Things didn't work out in GPs for Troy B either as a regular and no-one thinks bad of him, and Colin Edwards is hardly having a ball.

Other top-class Brits either got on rubbish machinery (Chris Walker in 2001 with a shoddy team, Shakey in 2004 on the ApriliBeast) or on previous championship pedigree shouldn't have been there but were hardly going to turn down the opportunity (Jeremy McWilliams, James Ellison).

Looking at the current Brit up-and-comers I'd say Camier and Sykes need another year in BSB (Sykes has yet to get a podium although has been 4th-7th in 15 out of 16 races with one DNF, and been very close to the winner in several close finishes), and Craig Jones who if he can get consistently near the front in WSS might get looked at. Chaz is in a funny spot now he's over in the US. The big prospect who should be thinking of moving onwards and upwards to MotoGP or WSB ASAP is Jonny Rea, otherwise he runs the risk of getting stuck in the UK a la Kiyo or Leon Haslam.

None of this has anything to do with any of the points raised about Laguna, but never mind...

[AndyRAC]

Regarding British riders in Moto GP; very few if any have got on a factory machine, it's nearly always a satellite machine, which is why I'm slightly worried about JT's supposed move. Bradley Smith looks as though he's going about it the 'proper' way, starting off in 125's, hopefully then 250's (or whatever replaces them), then Moto GP. Didn't Crutchlow do the same Moto GP academy as Smith, yet now does BSB? When are Brits gonna lose the fixation with Superbikes?

[osg]

Just a short quick statement from me:

No the title is not over by a distance............but:

If the rumors of Yamaha debuting the pneumatic valve powerplant for Valentino are true, do you all think that it's a "make or break" decision for Yamaha? Massive risk, just throwing the engine out there with minimal testing and straight into Vale's bike.........

If it fails, and mechanical gremlins rear their little heads...... then Casey will take the Championship in front of the faithful at Phillip Island.

If not, and providing Michelin pull their heads out of the sand, it's game on.

[fatman]

My two cents. The championship isn't over yet, but it could be as good as decided depending on what happens right after the break. ROssi has to come out of the gates winning races. He needs 2 back to back wins or at least 2 races with some serious point gains over Casey to bring the fight.

[The Phantom]

I agree Fatman, although I said to my partner before Saschenring "Rossi MUST win this race otherwise it's game over for him". Well we know what happened there. But as usual, you can't ever write the Doctor off.

Speaking of that moniker, a letter to the current issue of Australian MotorCycle News (AMCN):

"I know we currently refer to Rossi as The Doctor, but maybe next year we call him The Proctologist because he is spending so much time looking up Stoner's arse."

:p

[osg]

"I know we currently refer to Rossi as The Doctor, but maybe next year we call him The Proctologist because he is spending so much time looking up Stoner's arse."

:p

GOLD. Pure Gold. :D

[T-D]

i think camier, rea and even haslam should all move out as quickly as possible. bsb is a great series, but if the brits want to compete in motogp they need to get on the world stage.

[ozrevhead]

I agree Fatman, although I said to my partner before Saschenring "Rossi MUST win this race otherwise it's game over for him". Well we know what happened there. But as usual, you can't ever write the Doctor off.

Speaking of that moniker, a letter to the current issue of Australian MotorCycle News (AMCN):

"I know we currently refer to Rossi as The Doctor, but maybe next year we call him The Proctologist because he is spending so much time looking up Stoner's arse."

:p
LMAO! :D Bucking Frilliant

as for the championship being over - geeze you guys really dont have any faith in Casey do you!

If Rossi does challange agains whats making everyone assume Casey is going to Crack - if anything Rossi/Yahmah is the one Cracking amto

Rossi will at best half the defecit

[ArmchairBikeFan]

None of this has anything to do with any of the points raised about Laguna, but never mind...

Great post, can't argue with any of it. Most of the points raised weren't about Laguna anyway. :)

[Ranger]

I don't see Stoner losing it from here.

But there's always the threat of injury.

[patnicholls]

When are Brits gonna lose the fixation with Superbikes?


I want to pick up on this for various reasons.

As far as I'm concerned, MotoGP and Superbikes can exist very nicely in harmony. There's no Champ Car/IRL rivalry, simply because they are not competing directly against each other - MotoGP is prototypes and Superbikes is production based, obviously. Sure, things developed on prototypes get passed down to road bikes in the same way that the odd trick on F1 cars eventually get down to road cars (although with bike racing the relationship is rather closer), but they don't occupy each other's space in the market.

So far as comparing the machinery goes, MotoGP is ahead for the clear reason that it has to be (if your production machinery is better than your prototypes, you're producing some crappy prototypes :p ). But the gap isn't much - at Donington for instance, for a time the lap record was by Steve Hislop in BSB, faster than Rossi for a while.

In terms of riders crossing over, there's fairly good parity too. Nicky won the GP title from a Superbike background, although the likes of Colin and Neil Hodgson didn't do so well with their opportunities. Chris Vermeulen on the other hand is doing rather well. And GP winners like Garry McCoy, Regis Laconi, Norick Abe, Alex Barros and of course Max Biaggi certainly haven't had things their own way when they went over to WSB.

True, many riders want to get into GPs, JT included. But there's no shame at all in wanting a Superbike career if you can do well there (interesting one - who do you rate as better - Troy Bayliss or Marco Melandri?). We all know that there's a finite number of seats in GPs and indeed in 250s/125s, and for the GP route there's nothing outside of that.

Carl Fogarty did nothing in GPs but is a household name and with good reason from his time in WSB. If you go to Brands Hatch or see it on TV on Sunday, you'll see 80,000+ fans who don't think Superbikes is too bad, ditto the 60k at Silverstone and similar at Donington for WSB. If you tune into BSB on ITV1, the 30,000-odd people present at each round quite like it too. Over in Japan too, Superbikes is very important to the manufacturers ('Win on Sunday, sell on Monday' as it was once put), as you can see from the Suzuka 8-hour race. The AMA has a lot of money in it over in the States. If you're an Aussie, since Mick retired you've had rather more to cheer about in WSB than in GPs too. All the road races are obviously production-based too.

WSB has rather less tradition than MotoGP having only began in 1988 and taken a few years to get mainstream recognition, but it's the same for GPs. Until 2000 the British MotoGP only got about 20,000 fans on race day - once Channel 5 got the coverage and a Mr Rossi started becoming a superstar things improved but it's had lean times in Britain.

If you're a Brit or any other nationality, there's a good career with plenty of opportunity in Superbikes. The fans love it too, so where's the problem? :p

[tha_jackal]

(if your production machinery is better than your prototypes, you're producing some crappy prototypes :p )

Maybe Ilmor should give WSBK a crack with their prototype? :D :laugh:

[The Phantom]

Don't laugh Jackal, it's been done before! :o

(Petronas started off as a GP bike)

[ChrisS]

Harris WCM was the other way around, their prototype was based on an R1, but with the necessary changes to make it a prototype. The end result was an engine with less power than a stock R1

[ArmchairBikeFan]

And there was a time when the Suzuki World Superbike was quicker than the MotoGP bike, because the prototype was so awful! That would be around the time Corser was winning the WSBK championship while Hopper and Kenny Junior were being flung down the road by the 990.